tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post4675517948241633611..comments2024-03-28T19:25:37.448-04:00Comments on Betrayed Wives' Club: How to have a tough conversationEllehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-90610425321893827132017-04-04T07:43:03.755-04:002017-04-04T07:43:03.755-04:00Thanks Jean for sharing, and Elle, thanks so much ...Thanks Jean for sharing, and Elle, thanks so much for your analysis of this - it's what I'm experiencing at the moment, and have done so since D Days.<br />Hugs<br />Gabby xoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-40587556172442821052017-04-03T19:39:41.137-04:002017-04-03T19:39:41.137-04:00We blow me away too. I'm always ALWAYS so hear...We blow me away too. I'm always ALWAYS so heartened by the kindness I see here. Without fail, people rush to another's pain with support and compassion and a "you've got this" cheerleading that can't fail but heal. Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-16482673083319746142017-04-03T17:14:22.500-04:002017-04-03T17:14:22.500-04:00IN addition to your writing Elle, what blows me aw...IN addition to your writing Elle, what blows me away the most is honestly how thoughtful and aware our company of women is. God knows its easier to simply bitch and point fingers (and I've done my share of that too, I am fully aware) But the fact is through and even with all this pain, we are so open and forthcoming with each other. We blow me away. Steamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-70387853791483801752017-04-03T15:35:55.689-04:002017-04-03T15:35:55.689-04:00Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying. I'm sorry yo...Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying. I'm sorry you had to go through that, though I imagine having a front-row seat (along with being triggering) for the way these women's minds worked gave you helpful insight into just how twisted their thinking can be. A generalization to be sure, but so many that I've known over the years are hyper-focussed on themselves, always see themselves as victims, and struggle to empathize with anyone else. <br />Glad you found us. I'm sure you have a lot of insight that could help us here. <br />Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-18381196563985687052017-04-03T14:52:00.460-04:002017-04-03T14:52:00.460-04:00I probably didn't explain myself correctly. Ye...I probably didn't explain myself correctly. Yes, I was a counselor but I no longer practice. No, it wasn't a project, just the luck of the draw of me being chosen as their counselor, as there were approx. 6 of us sharing an office on a part-time rotation basis. People are screened prior to being assigned a counselor, usually depending on our strengths, who is available when they are, or through a referral. We each had the freedom to refuse. However, some people are either unable or unwilling to disclose the real reason they are seeking a counselor. No one knew about my betrayal since it happened before I went to collage after my H's affair. (Yes, I was the oldest student in my class!) I thought I had everything under control. (Not!) I found I had a built in prejudice which,following my training,I knew I wasn't doing my best work. Adultery and OW were a trigger for me, I learned. I had previously had 7 random OW needing counseling and I noticed the common traits. I recorded every session and when I was reviewing, I noticed that they almost always used the same words. I felt I was taking their participation in adultery too personally and lost my objectivity, so I gave myself a time out. On reflection, I learned a lot from them - as they spoke candidly not knowing I was a BW!<br />Carol the FirstAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-29868613664032260152017-04-03T11:10:07.724-04:002017-04-03T11:10:07.724-04:00That "falling in love again" is a wonder...That "falling in love again" is a wonderful feeling. I had that too. But it was watching my husband face down his demons, and really work so hard to become a better partner that helped me get there. It was really knowing him at his absolute worst that allowed me to realize that I loved him, all of him, even the dark side as long as he was willing to deal with that. It's a deeper love, a richer one. And worth the battle it took to get here. Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-45286823568715591142017-04-03T11:08:08.397-04:002017-04-03T11:08:08.397-04:00Snowbird,
Yes, he is a lucky man. ;)
Snowbird, <br />Yes, he is a lucky man. ;)<br />Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-9215565488026821322017-04-03T11:07:45.605-04:002017-04-03T11:07:45.605-04:00CallMeKate, It's still hard for me. I still wi...CallMeKate, It's still hard for me. I still wish I could avoid those uncomfortable conversations. But it never works. I just feel my resentment build and it inevitably comes out in a way that's not healthy for any of us. I snap at the kids. Or I eat an entire chocolate cake. Or I just find myself loathing my husband. Amazing how quickly that vanishes when I just talk with him, even if I'm not crazy about what he says. <br />You mention your traumatic childhood. That's a huge factor in this, of course. His betrayal has undoubtedly retriggered that trauma, which makes the difficult conversations even harder because you're dragging all sorts of old stuff into this new situation. Counselling will help you process the old pain and new pain so that you can proceed from a more solid place. Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-46096028989617478072017-04-03T11:04:06.421-04:002017-04-03T11:04:06.421-04:00KatieP,
I'm with you. I HATE them. I have spen...KatieP,<br />I'm with you. I HATE them. I have spent my life avoiding them. And that has got me exactly nowhere. Just left with a lot of resentment and frustration and like I'm silencing and disrespecting myself. My mom was the exact opposite. She had this incredible way to just dealing with things head on. No drama. Just matter-of-fact. I wish I'd inherited some of that. <br />But...I'm learning. I'm learning that avoiding those conversations actually keeps relationships shallow. That living to please others just makes me wishy-washy and inauthentic. And yes, pulling those uncomfortable feelings from the shadows strips them of their power. They're never as scary as I think they're going to be.Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-13680629538892605512017-04-03T11:00:15.752-04:002017-04-03T11:00:15.752-04:00Jean,
Your pain is an excuse to "moan at him&...Jean,<br />Your pain is an excuse to "moan at him"? That makes my blood boil but he's certainly not alone in trying to silence the person he hurt from expressing that pain. So often these guys are so filled with shame and self-loathing (which is frequently why they cheated in the first place) that they can't bear to deal with the consequences of the choice they made because it makes them feel worse. Well boo hoo. He doesn't want to deal with the situation he created. He wants you to pretend that everything is fine so that he doesn't have to feel bad.<br />Seriously? That's enormously self-centred and only makes it even harder for you to heal from this. It's the reason that HE should be in counselling too so that he can process his own shame and learn how to be a good partner to you. <br />I'm glad you've found this site helpful, Jean. Really really glad. But a marriage can't really heal until both partners are able to show up for each other. And that can be really uncomfortable at first because it means he needs to see your pain and respond to it with empathy instead of self-defence. <br />Can you tell him this? That you aren't talking about this to make HIM feel bad but because he's your partner and you want to be able to share everything with him, the good and the bad? Can you ask him to just listen to you, to maybe hold you? To respond to your pain with empathy and the reassurance that he will never put you through this again?<br />It's amazing how powerful that can be.Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-58028768861251610762017-04-03T09:34:19.538-04:002017-04-03T09:34:19.538-04:00I found that writing out my comments/thoughts and ...I found that writing out my comments/thoughts and questions helps a lot. If there is a lot to go through then setting aside multiple times to talk is good. At a certain point no one is any good to keep going on and on. I find I feel too weighed down even if we are making progress. I take notes over days and weeks. It helps me to see patterns and what is bothering me or what I need answered or need to talk about. Then I organize my issues/ thoughts by priority. I can then decide what to bring up first. It helps so much to be more organized and in the end I usually feel I have gotten a better quality answer that way.Hopeful 30noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-71920699313510580042017-04-02T13:34:23.713-04:002017-04-02T13:34:23.713-04:00Elle, your post probably helped me more than my hu...Elle, your post probably helped me more than my husband because as others have written here it has always been difficult for me to have difficult conversations because I like to please and I don't like to upset people, especially my family and look where that got me. I know now that had I had the courage to step out and speak up years ago we might not be where we are today although my marriage today is much more honest than it has ever been. My husband is conflict avoidant and we both know that. We have talked about the importance of having hard conversations a couple of times now and I think (hope) he will also risk talking about things. Your post was like a major therapy breakthrough for us and it gave us actual tools to use to open up those feelings. I was able to talk about my triggers and he was able to say, "yes, I want to know but I usually know by your body language and affect" but talking about them is probably the better route. He continues to affirm that he is in a very good space and that he likes living an honest life. I think I am falling in love again and I know I am working daily as is he to honor the contract of "Forgiveness is a contract between two people. One promises not to repeat their behavior and the other promises to leave it in the past."Beach Girlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-51878737806419444152017-03-31T15:29:19.845-04:002017-03-31T15:29:19.845-04:00Beach Girl,
Your comment on the other post was th...Beach Girl, <br />Your comment on the other post was the impetus for this post. I'm curious what happened after your husband thought about this post. Yes, it's uncomfortable. But avoiding discomfort is often what gets these guys in trouble in the first place!Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-54968466576516393272017-03-31T15:22:58.161-04:002017-03-31T15:22:58.161-04:00Carol the First,
I'm curious what you're t...Carol the First,<br />I'm curious what you're talking about. Did you speak with OW as part of project? Were you a counsellor yourself? Do tell!Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-40996636932119900282017-03-31T15:21:50.075-04:002017-03-31T15:21:50.075-04:00Anonymous,
It's a really familiar dynamic -- s...Anonymous,<br />It's a really familiar dynamic -- silencing yourself to make him more comfortable. And while it works in the shorter term -- ie. you're less likely to fight, for instance -- in the long term, you're disrespecting yourself and your feelings. I wonder if this has been a longterm habit in your marriage: for you to put your feelings aside so as not to "frustrate" or upset him. <br />Talking about what's on your mind is treating yourself with respect. It isn't up to you to protect him from feeling shitty about what he did to you. Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-51781692481793849712017-03-31T15:19:54.134-04:002017-03-31T15:19:54.134-04:00Hopeful30,
Yes, I think it's hard when we have...Hopeful30,<br />Yes, I think it's hard when we have something hanging over us; however, I don't think it's weak or wrong to wait until the time feels more right. You want him to be able to hear you. You don't want to be competing with internal stress. Sometimes even saying, "I have something I want to share with you later when you've had some time to unwind" can work. Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-53732403655645862562017-03-31T15:18:34.276-04:002017-03-31T15:18:34.276-04:00Anonymous,
I'd really encourage you to talk ab...Anonymous,<br />I'd really encourage you to talk about those triggers. As you noted with the movie, your husband's reaction might just give you pause and lessen the impact of the triggers. <br />And yes, it can hurt in the short term because you're actually pulling these feelings from the shadows. But, longer term, they lose their power over you. Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-44446950037522490022017-03-31T14:40:57.923-04:002017-03-31T14:40:57.923-04:00BEG, Please don't beat yourself up for not sin...BEG, Please don't beat yourself up for not single-handedly saving the world from cheating bastards. There aren't enough hours in the day or days in the year.<br />And what you perceive as a failure of a weekend, I see as something entirely different. I see a woman who was clearly triggered (and who among us wouldn't have been in the same situation!!) and a husband who responded to your pain in the best way he knew how. I see a couple who've come through incredible pain and have used it to create an intimacy and friendship. I see...success.<br />Even if you had said something, you likely would have been dismissed as hysterical. However, rescript the situation in your head. Pretend your scripting a scene in a movie. What do you wish you had said? How do you wish you had said it? Try actually saying it out loud. Imagine having done exactly that. Then, should you ever (god forbid) find yourself in a similar situation, you'll have your lines ready to be delivered. That's empowerment. That's learning.<br />We can't blame ourselves for being who we are and knowing what we know. But we can examine our behaviour and learn from it. You are completely forgiven for not saying anything and, frankly, for not ever saying anything, if you don't want to. But, if you do, you can be ready. And on behalf of betrayed wives everywhere, we're right behind you!<br />(As for karma, I suspect that bus is idling somewhere out of sight at the moment. It's coming for them.)Ellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13470499558973726796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-69604774478313154712017-03-31T12:28:55.912-04:002017-03-31T12:28:55.912-04:00Call me Kate, I can relate to this SO MUCH. I too ...Call me Kate, I can relate to this SO MUCH. I too avoid expressing myself and my feelings. I have always done that so it is really hard to force myself to do this, especially with my H. He can see right through me when I say "I'm fine". And also points out that avoiding the hard stuff, and the easy stuff, is one of the reasons we are here. He's right.... but it does not make it any easier. Hugs to you. KatiePnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-12448848298304581262017-03-31T08:35:09.131-04:002017-03-31T08:35:09.131-04:00Love this post, Elle. Thank you. Your h is a luc...Love this post, Elle. Thank you. Your h is a lucky man. I wrestle daily with how much to share as I witness my h's pain. His depression and shame made for a very heavy winter. He is in a better place this week, thanks to new medication and a little sunshine. I'm better with triggers most of the time, now 2.5 years out. Al-Anon has been a lifesaver for me, along with BWC. Thank you and stay strong, my warrior friends. snowbirdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-10683597695510194872017-03-30T20:07:38.625-04:002017-03-30T20:07:38.625-04:00Elle, I don't know how you do it, but you alwa...Elle, I don't know how you do it, but you always seem be to writing directly to me. I know a lot of us feel that way. Every time I read one of your posts, it always feels like perfect timing. I'm a year out from d-day and for me, there are still SO many days that feel like that vacation you described... built tension and resentment, and being nervous as hell to speak up and have the difficult conversations. Sometimes I think it would have been easier to just cut my husband out of my life altogether and never speak to him again after what he did. However, we also have a now 3-year-old son. So, no matter what we decided to do with our marriage, we HAD to face each other and start communicating in the beginning of all this. I remember sitting at his kitchen table in the townhouse he ended up living in for awhile and writing a schedule for the week, outlining how we would share time and responsibilities with our son. The first time we had to do that, it was surreal. I sat there and sobbed. It was so hard to believe this is where we ended up. To be honest, it's one of the first times I realized that I didn't want to live without him. My already-broken heart hurt even more sitting in that home that wasn't ours as we separated time with our son. Those conversations were the first of many really, really tough conversations that we've had over the last year. My husband moved back into our home after about 2 months of being away and we've been working like hell to navigate this recovery together since. We go to therapy often, where we seem to do our best communicating. It's applying the tools that we're learning there to our life outside of that office that is most challenging. It can definitely get overwhelming at times. I have been known to close-off easily when I'm triggered or upset. My rather traumatic childhood has sort of trained me to be this way. I have really struggled with being open about my feelings and communicating to my husband when I am having bad moments/days. To be honest, I've really been struggling with obsessing over the other woman and it's really hard for me to talk to him about it. I feel a lot of shame and embarrassment over the struggles I've gone through in trying to break bad habits of looking her up online, especially. (That's a whole other topic of conversation for me.) For me, these have been some of the most difficult conversations. I hate talking about it, so I often close-off and try to work things out on my own. My husband actually says that I frustrate him at times because it drives him crazy when I say "I'm fine" and it's clear I'm not. He reminds me that being closed-off and not communicating is one of (the many) contributing factors that led us to all of this in the first place. He's not the greatest communicator either, but we are both getting better at these difficult conversations as we continue to practice them. It has definitely been a process and it's an ongoing one. I have to remind myself that we are building a new marriage now and if it's going to work this time, then we need to make changes. And I like how you put it Elle... we have to do this as friends first. I can honestly say that my husband has been my best friend for the past 12 years. We have been there for each other through so much over the years and right now, we need each other more than ever. Thanks again for these words Elle. My husband and I just went through a few rough days in which we had to try several times to get though some difficult topics. I like how you suggested taking breaks from conversations, even if it means stretching over days. This seems to happen to us. It can be a very stressful few days, as we had this week. But I can honestly say that I always walk away feeling better and feel like we accomplished something together. I guess we'll just keep moving forward, tackling one difficult conversation at a time. Really, that's all we can do. Call Me Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04661608900863581184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-71541672631677817622017-03-30T14:08:23.737-04:002017-03-30T14:08:23.737-04:00I hate tough conversations. I have always avoided ...I hate tough conversations. I have always avoided them at all costs because I was so afraid of the backlash or outcome that would potentially happen. Not even with just my H but with friends, family, employees, etc. unfortunately sweeping things under the rug helps nothing. So now I have to actively try to have the tough conversations, at times i literally have to force myself to have them. Triggers are something I struggle talking about. I feel like I can deal with them by myself, but when I eventually come clean to my H about what is going on I feel like it's a huge relief. My counselor said something that really stuck-- talking about the feelings and emotions ( especially the tough ones) takes away their power. KatiePnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-60707907332479385702017-03-29T16:37:56.438-04:002017-03-29T16:37:56.438-04:00We don't ever really know, do we? I guess the...We don't ever really know, do we? I guess there are some people out there who would choose to turn a blind eye to their spouse's cheating. Having experienced the pain that accompanies finding out, I can't imagine how you could ignore it.<br />I find it interesting that in my situation, the OW (also married) has a sister who was cheated on. They are very close so it's virtually impossible to believe the OW didn't know about it and see her sister's pain. The sister and brother in law ended up divorcing. So how do you watch someone endurec this and then inflict that same pain on someone else? The sister also attacked me (via e-mail to my husband) for texting the OW and telling her what I thought of her. <br /> And I promise you, it was a very matter of fact email with no name calling. I'm not sure how a person could go through this and not have a bit of sympathy for someone else experiencing it. Maybe there are people out there who choose not to deal with it. I wonder if she just divorced him and moved on, never really processed the pain and that made it a whole lot easier to just label my husband as just like her ex, turn a blind eye to what her sister did, and ignore what I was going through. I suppose there are many ways to deal or not deal with it. And ultimately, people will justify their actions if it's something they've made up their mind to do. Early on, our therapist suggested the OW might be emotionally immature based upon my interactions with her. She's probably right. Dandelionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07422695784998995973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-91257504836919635652017-03-29T08:46:49.694-04:002017-03-29T08:46:49.694-04:00I went to my IC last night and she said maybe the ...I went to my IC last night and she said maybe the CH's W knew about it and was ok with someone else providing the sex as long as she had the name, house, kids, money, etc. IDK about that, I think that must be pretty rare, but anyway IC made me feel less upset about not speaking up. <br /><br />We also plan to talk about triggers with H in the next MC. IC said it would have been good for me to tell him what triggered me so he can see how frequently those things happen and how they affect me. browneyedgirlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7026450255174007652.post-64655991022031580152017-03-28T22:44:00.078-04:002017-03-28T22:44:00.078-04:00Triggers YUCK as I went upstairs to sleep. I was e...Triggers YUCK as I went upstairs to sleep. I was exhausted. Infidelity is like always right behind me. I run away from it. I'm constantly trying to out-run it. I'm busy. I do this and that. But with all that running away I get tired. It catches up to me, I trigger and exhausted. I did tell him what I was thinking which I ended up saying, "You scare the hell out me." He understood. He knows, he sees me running. He says tell me what I can do? I don't know what he can do. He says, I love you so much, I can live like this. I say, ok You said you loved me the whole time you were with her do you mean that kind of love or another kind of love. I'm confused. Is it cheater love or no cheater love? He said I do everything I can to show you how much I love you. I said yes you do. But how do I know you have changed on the inside to not cross that vaginal line again? He said, he realizes now he doesn't ever want to be that man again and do things that go against his core beliefs. I say can I sit on your lap? He takes out his phone and rocks me like child. I say can you lay in the bed with me and just hold me until I feel better. There we lay, my head is buried in his chest fully clothed and he holds me. Triggers gone but then I get up and start running. I tell him, I was able to get to a good place with my bitch of a mom, I pulled my life together after being abused but this, this I can't get seem to get myself together. He said, its like you want me to give you some magic answer but I don't have one. Neither do I just keeping running so infidelity doesn't catch me again. I felt that cloud of gloom and doom leave tonight. He laid his head on my chest and fell asleep. I'm ok now for a few months. Lynn Less Pianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07430930678475537146noreply@blogger.com