Separating or Divorcing? (FULL)

Sometimes ya need to clear him out to clear your head. Share your stories here...

202 comments:

  1. Morning friends, woke up on this gorgeous morning, sunny, crisp, zero humidity, birds (my spirit family) everywhere, and yet I am feeling low. Just a little sad, just a little tired. Week three of separation and some things are good and some things are just plain confusing. Yesterday was my painting class which is always a pleasure. I go with my good friend who knows ALL about my situation. It is also the night we agreed my h would come over to have dinner with the kids. He seemed very down. Had texted me and the MC to cancel this week. Lots going on at work as he transitions to a new job ( believe me this is a good thing, leaving the OW at the old company, leaving that environment with its memories and triggers for him, can't happen fast enough for me). And yet there is a real risk with the new job that he will bury himself in the work to avoid dealing with his shit. And when he needs a break from MC (just one week, I get it. Sometimes I want a break too) I start to feel like he's not sincerely trying. Or that his going is just for show so he can tell himself and the kids later that he "tried." And when he's sad and looks at me, I wonder is it shame and guilt about how much he had hurt me? Yes. Shame and guilt about this separation and how angry I am? Yes. Shame and guilt about what he's still not telling me? Probably. Shame and guilt about his intentions for the future, for how this plays out? I just don't know. I've gotten sooo much better about not getting sucked down into his roller coaster emotional turmoil. Especially since separation. But some days are harder than others.
    I don't think he really sees or understands who I am now or was before. I feel like he's created this narrative where I am "not ok" and so doing things on purpose to hurt him or cause problems. Last couple session was very hard (why he wants to skip this week) but I worked hard to express my anger at our situation, about how i didn't want to hear about the rope swing and fun landscape projects he's got going on at his cabin where he is only supposed to be living for six months when I am stuck taking care of our giant house and yard (yes I can handle it, just pissed about it) and all the rest of reality. So the MC really helped us discuss anger and helped him recognize how defensive he gets when I express anger. He even figured out that he only feels safe expressing anger when he can piggy back on someone else's. He talks about how hopeless he feels ..Long story short he simmers on that for a few days and says we need to talk because "what you said about the house was a game changer". Turns out he turned my expression of anger into somehow me not wanting to be in the house after all and taking away the kid's safe haven etc etc. I never said I wanted to leave my home. In fact that was why I didn't agree to a separation where we alternated weeks in the house. It was a firm boundary for me because I did not feel I deserved to have my life any more disrupted by his shitty choices. But it us an example of how he retells things so he's somehow being victimized. So I'm just chewing on that this am, but trying to shift to enjoying my coffee and sunshine. Maybe get out for a walk. Thanks y'all. Always better to get this out of my head.

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  2. Howdy y'all, had a good week, actually experienced some days where I was happy, feeling good about my life without any thought of him, the affair etc. So this week he asked to skip MC. Some work travel came up and he "needed a break." OK fine. I get it and one day off does not mean he is giving up or burning all bridges. At first I have some trepidation. Is the travel to NY or NC? I just don't know and have no way of knowing. But then I realize/remember that he's been doing whatever the hell his id tells him and I can't control that. This is his last work week on that old job (at the company with the OW) and I am sure they are scrambling to get the knowledge out of his head and pieces transferred (his pretty key there so this is legit). But. Weds can and went. He played some words with friends with me. Even said sorry when he dropped a 75 point word. And I totally forgot he was even traveling. I completely failed to be worried about where he was! This. Is. Awesome.
    All quite on Thursday, drove to therapy and noticed a tire was squishy. Normally he handles this but I am going to handle it. I just needed some info from him to get it done (and also so I can go into the shop and not get bamboozled into more than I need - sexism = alive and well in garages across the nation). Didn't hear a response from him for several hours and unfortunately started to get worried, ruminating on what he could be doing. Was he traveling? I had convinced myself that the Weds. trip was NY, but now could it have been NC and he was travelng back? What was he doing that he couldn't respond to me? Dammit. Stop it self. Who cares what he is doing. He's not really my problem right now. I can't know where he is and it is probably good I don't. Policing him before didn't stop him resuming contact with the OW. So stop torturing myself. Went for a run. Got too tired but got out of my head. Heard from him later. Got a text meant for my son. But then he responded about the tires. He even offered to help with it next week when he is off (between old job and new job - good riddance. Is it wrong that I am gleefully wondering how the OW took the news that he was quitting? probably). But nice that he offered to help. Im going to handle it anyway. Just to prove to myself I can. Going to NYC with my sis for the night tonight! Looking forward to a mini escape from reality.
    Slowly finding my feet with work again too. As a freelancer, it has been such a blessing to have that kind of flexibility and my clients have all been incredibly patient. I let them know months back that I was having "health issues" in order to explain my lack of productivity. Half of them are probably convinced I am dying but I needed to take the space for myself and don't feel like I owe them gory details. OK signing off. Hugs.

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    1. SS,
      I'm loving these updates -- sad with you when you're down, rejoicing with you when you're feeling good. I'm not sure you realize you how incredibly sane and grounded you sound. Thank you for sharing your insights and your hurdles with us.

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  3. So unexpected. The feelings that rose and filled my chest as I arrived at the train station. I was traveling to NYC for a quick, fun overnight with my sister. She travels a lot for work. She knows what I have been going (walking, breathing, holding) through. So she extended the invite to get together and have some fun. A little escape from reality. It was a lovely opportunity for me to bring to life my intention of having more travel and adventure (something that used to be there and got lost) in my life. So. I go. I plan to take the train rather than drive all the way to NYC. I arrive at the train station and it hits me, drops in my mind, "this is where he started his trips so many times. All the times I was trusting or home taking care of our daughter and her kidney issues, this is where he entered his other realm, the fantasy life." And I felt a little sick. And I closed my eyes and didn't fight it and I breathed the hurt and the sadness and the pain and the sadness again. And I read my book and I watched the birds (my personal messengers). And I arrived in Penn Station and walked through it. Bustle and people and smells, up to the street. And as I emerged, I felt like I had arrived at my own ground zero. The true epicenter of the affair. The company where they both worked was just a few blocks away. The place where they made eye contact in the open space office plan. The streets where they walked and probably held hands, ate fancy dinners, had interesting drinks. Where he felt proud to be seen with such a young, pretty thing on his arm. The hotels where they played out their fantasy and talked about the imaginary life they would start together up there. And I felt the glamour of the place. Felt how it fed the fantasy. So completely removed from a rambling house in the suburbs with two dogs, two kids, school, bills, leaky roofs and the unsuspecting wife. I felt it physically, in my body, like the ground was telling me "this happened here." The opposite of sacred ground. The glamour was like an old world spell, a veil cast over something ugly to make it appear beautiful, to deceive the unwary or unaware. I was so completely unprepared for the weight of this. It had not occurred to me that this would rise up to meet me off the train. I got in line for a cab. Headed away from the that place and to the upper east side. Made it to the hotel room where my sister was waiting, managed to keep it together. and then told her what I had felt. Talked it out, tears. Took a deep breath. And found my feet again.

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  4. Part 2
    Found myself back in the moment, with dinner and coffee drinks and a good nights' sleep. And the next afternoon on the cab ride back, passed through those same places, and felt a twinge, when I saw certain hotels, but instead focused on the people around me, smelled the delicious smells of the city, enjoyed the sun and thought, "if I get the chance, if we end up working things out, I would want to come back and claim this place. I would want us to be here and make our own, fresh memories and erase the pain with love." And then I realized I could do that without him. That I could do that, as I sat in my cab, and wrapped myself in love. The place can have no power to hurt me that I don't give it. There will probably be more firsts like that. There will probably be some places that will never make it back on my list of places to go. But some I will reclaim in time.
    I still don't know where things stand. I still struggle, wrestle daily with his choices and his lack of understanding of how they really have impacted the people in his life. And my own whys. Why am I waiting? Why am I extending this gift of time to a person who doesn't seem to know or appreciate what a gift it is? Why do I still love this person? And then I need to interrupt myself because I'll go down the path of more hurtful whys. Why is it so hard for him to choose me? Because that's not what it is about. It is really because he can't choose himself, because he is unable to be vulnerable to someone he actually, really loves. I'm convinced of this. And really afraid he won't figure it out. But preparing myself for the possibility that he won't figure it out. That he'll choose some imaginary safety over something real and powerful and meaningful. Because isn't that what he's been doing all along? So back to now. Take a breath. Show up today. And again tomorrow. And that is as far ahead as I am going to think.

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    1. Still Standing
      The man just may not have what it takes to be what you want him to be. My h and I are totally opposite of each other emotionally. Even his cow couldn't understand that part of his personality. She loves so much about him but she found him a'weak man' incapable of true intimacy. These were her words to him when he was trying to end the affair. My h is very analytical in personality and even though he feels deep emotions, the words just don't come easy for him. Our relationship has always had just enough romantic moments to keep us a couple all these years but his choice to try different sex has almost destroyed both of us. I'm sharing my experience even if it's not like your h, just letting you know that there are a lot of men that just don't have the capability to express themselves in the way we desire. I also want you to know that you are not alone and we're here for you when you need to vent! I did just what you said about claiming places for happy memories! In fact we're still doing that every chance we get! Hugs for your pain!

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    2. Thanks Teresa. I'm taking it day by day and watching him grow as he works through his crap, even if it's from a distance now. I'm trying to let go and let him walk his own path. While I walk my own.

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    3. Still Standing,

      I like the ground zero analogy. I feel that way with specific places and also with specific events or memories. The only place one of my husbands affairs took place was ruined by him. We had only been there a couple times. I am not sure how I would feel going alone or with him. But he knows and has said he does not want to go back there with friends which is where one affair started. I like that he has the awareness to know this and bring it up to me. All the other stuff he keeps telling me that a corrective emotional experience is necessary. Basically but creating new memories and or traditions to replace the old. And it is working for me. It is gradual but I feel better about all those things. I still struggle most when we are busy or stressed and day to day life seems to slip back in.

      And my husband is great at expressing himself but he is a master at compartmentalizing anything and everything. This is a huge issue for us. The other day we were having a serious discussion and he said what I brought up was different and can't we compartmentalize it? That did not sit well with me. Such a work in progress and it is so hard waiting for time to pass.

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    4. Hopeful the compartments thing kills me too. But how else could a man be off banging his chippy while his 16 yr old daughter is getting an ultrasound for kidney stones? He knows he does it and even used the phrase in mc thus week. "all the compartments in his life were full". I'm thinking don't appropriate my recovery language. But at the same time I think it's a good thing he sees it. Not sure if he sees it as problematic tho. It might not be if it wasn't for that one compartment. Also dangerous as it lets you "put things away" and not deal with it. Whst your h said would not have sat well with me either.

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    5. Still Standing,
      Following along with you on this path you're on feels like such a privilege. Your eyes and your heart are wide open. He'll either get it or he won't. He'll either recognize that these "compartments" get in the way of living a fully honest life...or he won't. But either way, you're going to emerge whole and healed from this experience.

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  5. SS Although I'm not in your circumstance. Is it possible your husband just wanted out of the marriage? Is he with th AP? I read a Waywards blog and many times they move out then discover in their words "the grass wasn't greener, "I came out of the fog". From what I read most Waywards who are separated it took 8 months to come home. This is just what I read from the consensus of comments. The part I really like is when the Waywards try to come home and the betrayed has moved on, is busy, dating, realizes how really shitty the H is, she really didn't need him anymore, felt different about him or was just plain happier. The Waywards moan, groan, say they threw it all away. The remorse that they spew is refreshing and I enjoy it. Just going out is one big step ahead. NYC is a great place to lose yourself and then regain yourself. I wouldn't extend one nano second of wait time. I hope I would take the time to do everything he never wanted to do. Just dreaming but I would go to museums - the off the wall ones, smaller ones. I would dress Bohemian, go to that part of town, drink a new coffee and eat something I usually don't order. I would go to the local coffee shop everyday at the same time, it is a good place to meet people. Learn something new like golf, yoga, learn different language. I always wanted to rent a horse. Plan a trip to go there. Many of the tour places or cruises take installments. I would take a cruise from NYC to Barlecona or London and fly back. The cruise lines have inexpensive air fair and make all the arrangements you just show up. My therapist had me plan somethings to look forward to in the future. It worked. Also I'm not ashamed to ask my dad or sister for money when it is something I really need. I told my sister, dad fucked us up, never got us therapy so send me $4000 for therapy so he can pay to Un-fuck me. I prepaid my therapy with that money since I lost my insurance. You have this. You got it. Cyber bear hug to you.

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    1. LLP the thought that he may just want out has often entered my mind. As in, is he too cowardly to just end it and so pushed the separation and us hoping I'll be the one to finally take legal action so I'm the one the kids end up mad at. I just don't know, but that doesn't seem to fit with him. Or at least the him I think ???? I knew.
      He is not living with the ow. She resides several states away. My kids have been to his place ( in fact he took me there to see it before he took the lease) and they would have mentioned her being there or being introduced. He also had his last day on the job where they both worked just this past Friday. He doesn't talk about her to his friends or at least the ones we have in common. If I wanted to conjecture, I'd guess he is keeping us both at a distance. And here is an interesting thing, my sis was in an emotional affair a few years ago and has since reconciled with her husband. She has been a real value in terms of both her support and insider view. She was separated and lived apart for five months and then back home with an in home separation before they reconciled. Was about ten months for her. So yes im interested in seeing the symptoms of fog lift and if the theories about limerance etc will play out here.
      He's not acting like a guy who is hell bent on ending the marriage. He's acting like a wounded person who got himself all mind fucked and is now both trying to figure it out and waking up to what he's done (and maybe what he's putting at risk). I've told him that I didn't think he was as afraid of losing me as I'd like. He told me I didn't know that. I told him in mc today that I missed my friend. He admitted that he missed me too. He has a lot of guilt though and I'm hoping he can work through that to where he can feel positive things with me and for me.
      I want to reassure you that I did have a good time with my sis in nyc. I am traveling again this week and have more trips planned. I am taking painting classes and piano lessons. I'm doing lots to live life and love myself. I love some of your ideas. Especially the cruises. I need to check that out.
      Thanks for the big hug. I really needed that!

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    2. PS LLP, what Waywards blog(s) have you been reading. I had found one, right in the early post dday time, which was really helpful, even though not maintained any more. affairadvice.wordpress.com Written by a man who had an affair as part of his and his wife's recovery process. His AP turned into a "bunny boiler" which made it easy for him to wake up from the fog. But there are definitely others who have commented that it took much longer for, that even knew they were being crazy but didn't know how to break the addiction, as it were. I'd be interested to look at some of what you've been reading. I've certainly read a ton about limerance and how it is intensified by the fantasy of an affair. And how it can last typically from 18 months to 3 years (god help me) but for me, the planned end of our separation will be right at the 18 month mark for when he started his affair. It will only be six months of separation, and so I am preparing myself for him to ask for more time. Right now I am willing to go a couple months longer, but not forever. The end of our separation will take us past the holidays, past the antiversary of dday 1 and land us at about dday 2, when I found out he was back in touch with her and hadn't told me. I'm leaving myself open to the possibility that I might just be tired of this shit by then. Won't know till we get there.

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    3. I read survivinginfidelity.com the forum Wayward Slide and Can You Relate This is not for the betrayed early on. You have to be interested in learning or this will make you hurt. I read questions for Waywards from Betrayed in the can you relate forum. This site is a conversation for Waywards and Betrayed and answering questions. Caution: for any of my friends here don't go there if you are still raging, it will trigger you like mad. I mean it. You will learn more from Elle's site than anywhere else.

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  6. It is a comforting and sad thought, but. I imagine you right beside me, " saying come on. Just one more step forward" Reading that I am not crazy with my day to day, hour to hour, or place to place moments. You pop in my head now and help me away from these heavy sucks the life out of you thoughts. I am sorry but thankful at the same time.

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    1. Anon, if that is at me I am deeply humbled that anything I've written or said has helped you. And I can pop in any time you need. And remember that when one more step forward feels like too much, it is ok to pause and take a deep breath. To rest. Big, ginormous hugs. Much love.

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  7. One more thought, the husbands I read that left the marriage for the AP. Neither one could trust the other one. It finally drove the husband to leave because he said he could never trust the AP. So 3 years later he is knocking on the wife's door. Just ask your H, how could you ever trust her, really trust her? I'm had to go through 6 months of his vetting process as he went through mine. My wasn't very strict DUH. The AP has not really been vetted, has she? Sending these nice thoughts for you all that had the courage to be on your own. Bravo.

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    1. AP is a fantasy. The real person if there is one under the insecurities, has not been vetted one iota.

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  8. SS, your description of the train station experience was so vivid, and so like experiences I have had. Thank you for sharing. I admire you so, your strength and your perseverance.
    I am so sad and conflicted right now. Lynn was right, eight months was about how much it took before he really started to come out of the fog. Tomorrow it will be a year since D-Day. And my ex is relentless. No matter how many times and ways I tried to tell him that I don't want to go back, he keeps telling me that he loves me and that we are meant to be together. In the last couple of days, he has actually started to suck me in, because I have been going through a sad time. I have been drawn into long conversations about what really went wrong with our marriage. He has apologized and expressed his willingness to do anything, over and over. It's everything I needed to hear before. And he was my most significant relationship 23 years. It is so hard to turn him away.
    I am so unhappy. He lied so often and so easily; I know I can never trust him again. And I so don't want to go back to those pain-filled, hypervigilant days. I have started to heal. But even though I tell him no, he persists, and I cannot bring myself to crush him completely. I still care for him very much.
    I feel so lost. I pushed through a quick divorce because I wanted to be free of the past and its pain. But I am still stuck and cannot move on.

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    1. Phoenix
      You don't have to move completely on to anything but what feels right. Now is the time to just watch him as he changes based on what he needs for himself. You can be his friend and it doesn't have to include benefits unless that's what feels right for you. You can also get counseling for divorced couples who are still in love. He could be in love with the memories of your life before he screwed it up. The only way to find out is taking chances and you control what chances you are willing to take! Hugs for the indecisive pain this is bringing you!

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    2. That is very insightful, Theresa. He is lonely and homesick, misses his kids and the life he was so unsatisfied with before. Realizes I was really was his best friend. Is that love? Who knows? I am genuinely sad for him. But I'm not taking any chances, not with my heart, not for a long time to come.

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    3. Phoenix I'm late responding and the other warriors on here have given you such good insight. Amen to taking all the time you need! You did what you needed to feel safe and recover. Stay focused on you. Much love!

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    4. Oh Pheonix

      My heart is with you - I know very well that sad, lost, painful place. Time and pain though are really tricky- they will always eventually have their way, even when we try to run from them, hide from them, control them, numb them..... Eventually they show up and have to be delt with if we want to truly heal and grow and be our truest selves.

      I know it is scary as hell and really really painful, but sit and stay with those sad painful feelings and moments. Emotions are just energy in motion that will move through us - not overwhelm us - if we take a breath recognize and accept them and then nourish ourselves with love and slef care.

      I don't really like the sound of you xH being so pushy, you deserve the time and space you need. And he likely has a lot of individual growing healing to do as well. I might be helpful to have some boundaries around emotional conversations. Then you can be free to feel and heal through your own pain and see if he is/ has made changes that are meaningful to you. I have known divorced couples who remarried after years apart- they had both done a lot of growing and changing and eventually had a second marriage together.

      You have mentioned here before your strong support structure, which is such a blessing. I also know that the ache of the heart is a very lonely place. Even if we are not physically alone. All your sisters are with you and I too have recently felt so lonely even when out with a group of friends. Thinking of you and sending love and faith.

      Becky.

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    5. Phoenix,
      I think Becky's point is one to really consider. His pushiness around this is just another example of him putting his needs before yours. You're telling him to give you space...and he's not. So while it might feel romantic and "meant to be", it seems to me like more evidence that he has work to do around how to consider other people's needs and boundaries and respect them.

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  9. Still standing, that was beautifully written. It is simply a joy to read. I was thinking as I read it, it would be wonderful if those who have never experienced an affair could read your posts ... Or even those who have been somehow touched by an affair. Thank you so much for sharing. And I think you are amazing.

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    1. Thank you. I so value the women here and all the love and support. What an amazing thing!

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  10. Phoenix I'm so sorry he's putting you in this position, it was because of his actions that you pushed for a divorce and I totally get that I'm right where you are now but please think long and hard give yourself time, he's sucking you in because he no doubt does love you and has lost you, he's regretting his decisions. Your very much like me in that you don't want to crush him completely but your absolutely not your protecting yourself from further pain and hurt Phoenix.. Like you said you are free from them painful days, you are very much in control of your life right now whilst your h is most likely out of control.., I'm so proud of how far you've come Phoenix and want the very best for you. If he's still saying the same things in a few months and you see his actions match his words then you decide whether he's worth another chance but don't rush into anything you might regret..... Lots and lots of love Phoenix xxx

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    1. Sam, I meant to ask: what is going on with your situation now? How is the separation working out for you?

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    2. Phoenix we are still separated not really speaking apart for childcare arrangements there's so much distance between us I can't see any way back.. As you have said below about how your h can lead such a double life, mine does the same he's a complicated character and I don't have the time or energy for him anymore.. Like you I've closed the door and can't see any openings right now in fact I envisage life without him.. He's so messed up he can't even start to deal with my feelings to be honest I just want him in a good place so he can be the father my children need and deserve.. I don't need him for anything and he knows it.. Too much has happened with this man who I don't think I really know.. So that's where I am right now Phoenix trying to get on with life best I can... Thanks for asking xxx

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  11. Phoenix - I know you don't trust him as the pain is very deep, I remember your post the pain was palpable. If he messes up again you know exactly what you would do. Don't let yourself miss out. Why are you unhappy? Your H if I remember correctly was not only a shit but super-shit. Borderline super shit on steroids. I understand but don't limit your self because of fears. I feel bad that you have been - he loves me he loves me not. WTF? Test him - why did you have the affair? Take anything about you or your marriage out. He can't say you didn't love me, you didn't give me attention... Take the you out and see if he being real.

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    1. You're right, the pain was very deep. He is quite willing, at this point, to shoulder the blame for his actions, and to take whatever venting I dish out. He is saying and doing all the right things. The problem is that I have already shut the door, and it's going to take a lot for me to open it again - if I ever do.
      I have very mixed feelings about him. He is tender and sweet, loving and, finally, trying to open up. And I know he is hurting, and blaming himself. But I also know how easily he lies and leads a double life. I know how well he fakes things. I know how many chances I gave him before. I don't know how I can ever trust him again.
      Thank you for being my advocate!! We take no crap!

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  12. Ok I'm here. I'm still separated, but seeing him more and more. I may have said this somewhere else, or maybe just to a friend, but after about two weeks of the utter madness that came when he fucked up and left his fuck phone out and i kicked him out, I felt so much lighter. Physically i was and still am tired, but EMOTIONALLY? I was and am so so SO much better.

    I had no idea how much energy I was expending trying to make sure he was "happy" which was outside of my power anyway. I knew something was wrong, but I just thought he was going through something--his career is not where he ever thought it would be, while mine was and is at it's pinnacle. I had tried to include him in all of my extracurricular work activities because they are fun--but we had to pay HIS way, so they got too expensive, and i started to do without him.

    I thought he was depressed about that--when the reality is, he was being a big baby that i wasnt out of sight and out of town enough for him to pursue his "perfect" pleasures. of course i know now that this was his progressing "sex addiction" and that mixed with compulsion meant there WERE no perfect pleasures and he was spinning like a top, forcing him deeper and deeper into the dead place where he stood--
    and my action of getting him out of the house, cutting his phone and satellite radio off as he was pulling out of the drive way was NO joke. I was DONE. It hit him over the head like a HAMMER.

    I didnt give him time or space to apologize or "explain" or cry or whatever. Just get out of my face.

    so since about mid june, the joy I have had in saying "yes" to any opportunity has been remarkable. I didnt care, I really didnt care where he was sleeping, what he was doing or what. I had HOPED he had finally hit bottom and all i asked of people who asked what they could do, was to NOT bail him out.

    I traveled more, I did things on MY schedule--this sounds silly, but I kept a clean house. I threw his things into his office and shut the door. I filled the closet with all things mine. We kept in touch through business dealings (text and e-mail only) i wanted to deprive him of my voice--anything that was me.

    As time went on and i continued with my therapy and my meetings and my too packed schedule I had to learn to sit and feel the pain in stillness and I did, but surprisingly there wasn't much.

    Because finally I was taking care of me.

    We saw each other after two months, and have seen each other about four times in the last two weeks. He even stayed over night twice, and wanted to come home now---and I said I had not thought earlier than January, so we are negotiating that.

    He cannot come back the same person. I love him, but he has an illness and he's getting help, but I can't focus on him because I dont know where he will r in january or even tonight.

    MY kicking him out though, has forced him to find his own wings, he is doing things he has not done in years, like hold a steady job (he's been a freelancer) stick to a schedule, stretch his creativity and actually find himself OUT, instead of living under my shadow, which is where he chose to be. I never asked him to live there.

    I too was just in NYC, SS, and at Penn Station the same time as you! I realized when I read that, that you and I may have passed each other, there or on the street and didnt notice each other because damn if we we're not just like "real" new yorkers.

    Survivors, truth seekers, take no shit and "fuck you-ers" but our hearts are bigger than those studio walk ups they live in.

    We are real, true, living testaments that there is a worthy life within us, even if everything doesn't end up with "Big" buying us a damn penthouse. We don't need a Big.

    We have what we truly need, we have ourselves.

    Anyone who gets a piece of that, is damn lucky.

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    1. Steam! I love that we were there in NYC together. I love retelling that scene to myself with you in the station, standing with a fist, shouting "you got this sister!"
      I do have me now. Thanks for the reminder. A powerful, whole, growing me that is the baddest bitch in the valley.

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    2. Steam. This post is soooooo boss bitch and I love everything about it!!!! Thank you.

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    3. Hey Steam,
      I love this. A huge "yes, yes, yes"! to everything you wrote.

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    4. You go Steam. Maybe your name should be Steamed. I love your posts and always have. Glad you are posting again I learn so much from your experiences.

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  13. So this is not to talk anyone into a separation, but I will say this, this has been for me, the most important, interesting and growth provoking thing that i have done in years. I could never have survived this after D-Day 1. I was too focused on him and on US, I even wished, at the time that I had the strength to be alone for a while, but I didn't. I was so shocked. This time with two and a half years of learning post D-Day 1 ( partly because I never stopped reading here or reading books, or writing in my journal) I was learning how to set boundaries,learning what I was worth, I knew I could do it. To not do it would have been some sort of death for me, and instead, its been nothing but life--not how i had pictured myself at this time in my life--but real life, not living in and trying to control some fantasy i was sure I had under control

    --but facing the truth--MY HUSBAND IS A SEX ADDICT, again, nothing I did, nothing i caused, nothing i could control--- so it was time to take care of me.
    and I have.
    and I am.

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    1. Steam ..I feel so utterly proud of you.. Your h really is a lucky man... My hearts melting right now for how you have handled this situation. in reinventing yourself you have maybe unconsciously helped your h too.. You amaze me and I say that with true compassion... Keep being amazing steam xxxx

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    2. Steam
      You continue to inspire me with your strength and honest approach to the wobbly path we're on! I'm sorry you're still dealing with an addict but I'm so proud of you and the response you are having for yourself! Keep doing what you are because I can see a better future for you! Hugs!

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    3. Steam, I am nodding my head as I read your post. I was terrified of separating, even as recently as June, even when he told me that he had planned a business trip around her birthday "because he still cared" and I said I think you need to move out. I hated him for forcing my hand, but I also knew I couldn't be a doormat any longer, was not going to tolerate being emotionally abused. And now as I embark on month two, I am feeling pretty good. I'm not happy about being separated per se, but I think it has been incredibly good for me. I am stronger. I know and see that I can handle things on my own, that I can enjoy life without him, even forget about him sometimes as I go about my day. Just tons of growth and freedom to act without worrying if it will make him happy or be something he'd object to. In fact, even though he pushed for the separation, it has been better for me, easier for me than it has for him. He is lonely, isolated, and the kids really don't care about visiting him out in his cabin. So typically, on his night, he comes home and hangs with them at our house. And with his guy friends in the neighborhood, out of site is out of mind. He told me last night, when he was here, that coming back was hard for him. Its a bummer, but I'm glad he's opening up, even in small ways. Each of those admissions helps to build intimacy. And I will take all the baby steps we need. So my long convoluted point being, yes, surprisingly, the separation has been good for me. Difficult, but so many things that are good for you are not easy. Hugs.

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  14. Sam, that is solid, excellent advice. Thank you so much for your love and support! I agree, I do not need to rush - or be pushed - into anything. I am still healing, and he still has a mass of emotional issues. He wants to work on all that together, but the time for that has passed.
    I have asked for friendship and nothing more. If that changes in the future, it will be because the situation has changed. But I am not going to worry about the future right now.

    Today is the one-year anniversary of Dday. One year ago today, as I got myself and my kids ready for school, I picked up my husband's cellphone and found the texts that would transform my life into a waking nightmare. As I drove to work today, I thought about that drive to work a year ago. I was in shock. I'm glad I had no way to know how much pain and difficulty lay ahead, but I got through it, one day at a time, thanks in no small part to Elle and the wonderful women on this blog.
    I have come so far!
    So today I am sad, but I am also hopeful. I have a day jam-packed with work, tutoring, and rehearsal. But at some point today, I hope to do something special for myself, even if it is something as simple as getting some ice cream or a coffee drink!
    Unrelated, but does anyone else start hearing Elton John in their head when they read posts from "Still Standing"? Awesome song! Awesome attitude!

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    1. Hadn't thought of that song but yes goddamnit it works!

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    2. Phoenix,
      I think it's really important and powerful to remind ourselves how far we've come. Even when -- especially when -- we're not where we wanted to be, we can still take a look back and realize, with pride, that we're also not where we were.

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  15. Your a star Phoenix... thinking of you xx

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  16. Phoenix. Yes! That and. "You oughtta know" Alanos morisette. Plus a new singer called marren Morris. A great funny song called "rich" a full blast tune in my car.

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  17. (typing from my phone, typos almost guaranteed).
    So I'm traveling again. This time with my son and his little buddy. My sister and her family. Seeing rocks and gorges, eating too much food, stsying nice places. Having such a nice time my son and I agreed to add a day to our trip. So cool because he is such a home body. Really good to have an escape.
    Earlier this week in mc, my h talked about all the guilt he felt when he comes to the house. That he walked in on Monday day and I gave him such a look of loving acceptance that he was overwhelmed by the guilt. The therapist dug in to that a little. I got to express that guilt was not what I ultimately wanted for him. That it wasn't constructive if it got in the way of his time at home with the kids. He had his last day last week, as you read above. And had so much to do that he asked to skip mc that week. The therapist is pretty canny and asked about how that was (she knows the ow worked there, didn't tackle it head on, but asked about the work week and ending that phase). He talked about how busy he'd been trying to transfer what he knows, various meetings, goodbyes and he got a bit muddled talking about where he was on what days and how all this compartments were full and was glad to have had lunch in NY Friday with the President and then walk different directions. My Spidey senses were tingling. There was a gap in that muddled week and goodbyes and compartments. Could there have been a parting of ways he's not ready to share with me? I know I'm story telling but something just feels different. He admitted in mc that he misses me. My sister, who was once a wayward, say it looks promising. That she recognizes where he is. Trying not to be too hopeful, not to lean into another sucker punch. But my gut tells me something has changed. I recognize that I am story telling in the same way I do when I imagine him flying off to see her. But I am bird made of hope. I need to be patient and to stay focused on taking care of me. This separation had been good for me, even though I hate it and didn't want it. I need to keep on my path. He has to find his own way back.

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  18. The scene: a couch in a therapist's office. After hearing about how guilty my h us feeling the therapist asks how I'm doing. I'm ok. Having good days. Often restless and lonely and sometimes sad. Trying to sit with, not fight those feelings. So much more comfortable to meditate on them than fight or push them away. But I got a little tearful when I looked at my h and say "I miss my friend.". The therapist says it is ok for me to miss him and ok if he is not feeling that way. But he speaks up quickly and says a little tearfully, "I just want to be clear that I am missing my friend too." Looking at me. How can that one word feel teo extremely different from two people on the same couch? I say it as an approach, as a word that is less scary to him to create a safe place. I feel like he uses it as a shield. That he's afraid to acknowledge, even to himself, how much he still feels for me. So that friend word from him is both an approach and a keeping me at a difference. Because if he admits to himself or me that he really loves me, really missed me, that he has to be vulnerable, that he has to stare the truth of what he's done in the face. And I just don't think he's there yet. So hopeful and scary all at once. The therapist suggests tgst we go to every other week for a while. I get it, while we are separated and stable, what work is there to be done? Not much until he decides he wants to come home or I decide I've had enough. But I'm scared, anxious about cutting back nonetheless. We have few opportunities to connect without others around. And only Mondays when he comes to see the kids. So(yay me) I speak up. Express my feelings. Ask for a chance to get together for coffee just us on the off therapy weeks. No hesitation, he agrees with alacrity. I try not to lean in to that but it gives me hope. We will see.

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    1. Well done for asking for what you want ss.. Great stride forward .. Let us know how your coffee meetings go.. Big hugs xx

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    2. So this is his first week starting a new job. Some intense shot for him. It is an off week for MC, but I'm leaning toward skipping the coffee meeting. We had a nice convo over dinner, here at the house last night (ostensibly his night with the kids, but they were very focused on last minute prep for the first day of school). So I don't want to overwhelm him with too much "us" time/work. I also don't want to appear to be in pursuit of him in any way, especially since he has made small, tentative emotional approaches. My gut says give him a breather, so that is my plan. I'll be curious to see if he initiates scheduling our next MC session or if I have to. Very likely it will be me, since he will be wrapped up in the new job this week. So I will not get my knickers in a twist over it.

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    3. SS,
      I just want to point something out that's changed in the past few posts of yours -- over the span of a week or more. So much of your tone has shifted from "I" to "he". And I wonder if those small hopeful changes are shifting you away from keeping your focus on you toward him. I might be making something bigger than it is in reality...but I just wanted to make that point.

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    4. Elle, you are right about my shift. I had been feeling increasingly unsettled and with more focus on him than me. I think his text response to me, when I let him know I planned to stay away with our son for an extra day qualifies as a counter move. I'm off having a good time, really getting the most out of my summer and travel and he is sulking because he only gave himself a week off in between jobs and is regretting it, has not done all the things (or any of the things) he had planned with his "epic" week off and had to blame someone other than himself. he's so used to blaming me for his problems, for lack of fulfillment, for not getting his needs met (etc. etc.) that he put his disappointment and regret about his week on me. Or at least he tried to. But I stood up for myself by reminding him that it wasn't fair and that I wasn't asking or requiring him to so anything. But this triggered some of my old habits and some of our old dance. I make myself responsible for the happiness of others, particularly when it comes to men and their egos. So I've been examining that this week in therapy and during my reiki sessions (I wish all of you had access to my reiki master, Bob - yes for real. Reiki Bob. He's a wonderful teacher and a terrific guide for that part of my spiritual journey and growth. He's appeared in my life at a time when I needed a good dad, mine having passed two years ago. Just really good stuff. I wish for all of you to have your own version of reiki Bob). And I recognize that my husband is kind of flailing emotionally, while I've been thriving now that I have settled into the separation. he probably doesn't like that on some level. So he pulls his moves to try and get me back into a place that is comfortable for him.
      And the other piece is that I do still love him and I do still want him to come home. I get, intellectually, that I am going to have a great life (that I am blessed and have a great life now, in fact) no matter how this turns out. And I can think about being on my own and how that might look. But it is not what I am aiming at. So when I see small glimmers or hope, its hard not to cling to them. Its hard not to wish for more and want him to hurry up already. But I know the whole grasping thing doesn't work. That I've really got to let it all go, even that grasping hope (which is magical thinking, not real thinking) and get on with today, right now. and be in my skin and breath deeply and meditate, and decide to stay in my jammy pants all day and cook and drink tea and savor books and paint and practice piano and look forward to my theater tickets arriving and listen to my kids talk about their day when they get home from school and walk with dogs. And I will get to a good place. And when and if he's ready, he'll show up. And if he doesn't that's about him, not about me. Because honestly, I really like who I am. I'm enjoying discovering more of that each time, I'm forgiving of myself and compassionate with myself and each time I find some joy, especially when the eagles come to visit me (I'll tell my eagles story soon. But I'm having a lot of fun in my new positively self centered world). Shifting back to me.

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  19. So I'm traveling with my son. Having such a good time we decide to extend one more night. I let my h know because it's his kid too. Just trying to be responsible. He comes back with a text about how what was supposed to be his epic week off has been interrupted by this and that. And he has plans for today and he hoped our daughter would be ok so he didn't have to cancel. First she's 17 and her Gramma lives at the house. He chose to stay over one night even though I had her all set to handle things on her own. I never asked him to stay or to do anything relative to my staying g away longer. I responded with "was that at me?" And said I was just letting you know. Gwyn is fine. You shouldn't have to cancel any plans. And left it. No response. Radio silence. Is he sulking? Is he mad? I hate it when he turns situations that are the way they are because he chose them and makes it so that I or someone is doing something to him. I ended up sending another email saying g hey sorry if I misread the intent of your text. Enjoy your day tomorrow. Still nothing. Dammit. Jerk. Os he just stepping back from drama? Is he sheepish because he realized he put some bs on me unfairly or is he up to no good. And dammit what fucking plans? What plans? Is he fishing or flying to see his AP? Or did she come up here? Fuck fuck fuck. I can see he was up at 4:40 and on Facebook (messenger will tell you this if you don't go invisible) and again an hour ago. Could he just not sleep of was he up early to travel or is he using messenger now to talk to her. See what I am doing? The same kind of story telling just in the opposite direction. It's less about my gut and more about my hurt. Him being g a selfish ass is a trigger. I need to stop. He's going to do what he's going to do, even if I knew what his big plans for the day were I couldn't do anything to change them. Deep breath. Go outside. Enjoy my bonus day with my son.

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    1. Ss I reckon you have your h sussed he's just trying to divert blame to take it of himself.. You said nothing for him to respond the way he did.. He's angry with himself for messing up and it's easier for him to vent that anger onto other people then deal with it.. My h does exactly the same hence why I've distanced myself from him blocked his text messages and calls and only speak to him regarding childcare I will continue this untill he damn well treats me with some respect... Ss it's him with the problem not you, he's no doubt riddled with guilt and shame all his doing.. As for wondering what he's doing like I say with my h he was messing around whilst under my roof so what's stopping him now, well nothing other than the bubble has burst and its time to face reality but like you said we couldn't control them then nor can we now.. Leave him to it honey.. He will either dig his grave deeper or see what he faces losing and try like mad to get you back.. Time will tell .. Lots of love ss xxx

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    2. Elle, I used my daughter's name i the post immediately above. I can't edit the post. Is that something you can do? I don't want to remove the whole thing, just replace her name. I know very difficult to connect to me, still prefer to be cautious. I was very much typing stream of consciousness and out it came!

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    3. SS,
      Unfortunately I can't edit the post. You can delete it if you're worried (sorry -- I've been slow to read through these posts because I've been so freaking busy!). Blogger isn't the ideal platform -- it's pretty clunky and archaic.

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  20. I will check out Marren Morris!
    Other suggestions: "So What, I'm Still a Rock Star" by Pink, and "I Will Survive" (of course)!

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  21. And guess who, on the next afternoon sent me a simple text saying. "No, that wasn't fair. Its not you. I'm sorry." I felt so pleased with this. Like standing up for myself is helping him recognize what is and isn't ok. I can see he respects me so much more now. (Contrast sharply with how he took me for granted for so long). And miracle of miracles, I won the impossible milk jug ring toss at the State Fair with y son. He was so excited! I was so excited! I picked out a giant my little pony as my prize and we had a grand old time walking around with her for the rest of the day. Wish I could show you pictures. This is me creating joy and abundance in my life. (Right after getting us a free upgrade in hotel room to a nice three room suite, just by asking!). Feeling my strength and creating good memories for me and my son. Epic bike ride today and now I'm drinking wine in my hammock. I wish you all could stop in and have a glass with me. Hugs!!!

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    1. Winning the milk ring toss is IMPOSSIBLE. So that clearly makes you some sort of wizard. Wow.

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    2. the trick, apparently, is to pick one bottle and keep aiming for it. Don't switch your gaze. And start your toss from way down low, so you are lobbing it on to the bottle. And also assloads of luck.

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  22. Still standing, I went through much of what you are going through during my husband and I's separation. We had no counseling at that time as our therapist would not see us once we were separated. It was a six week separation. I knew he was in touch with the OW and he and I were seeing one another. He wanted to extend the separation; I told him that could not happen. He was obviously confused as to whether or not he wanted to remain married. In fact, he was confused about that when he came home. Nonetheless, I did not force him into coming home, I simply told him that I would no longer work on a marriage whereby we were separated and he was in contact with the OW. In other words, for my own sake and sanity, I would pursue a divorce. Was that easy? Was that a pretty scene? No, not at all. I learned through this site and through therapy that I needed to set a boundary that works for me. I do believe he resented me when he came home. It was difficult and he often threatened to leave. It was very obvious to me that he did not want to lose me, yet he was so confused. He has been back home now a year and three months. It is very apparent at this stage that he wants to be here, as do I. In reference to what you said about calling each other friend. That's interesting, we went through a time where he would refer to me as kiddo or girly. Both of those terms are terms of endearment that he uses for his female friends. It rather pissed me off. In time, he is back to calling me the loving names he did in the past. What did I do when he was so distant? I stopped calling him loving names I stopped telling him I loved him I stopped initiating sex - I did not do all this as any type of revenge or meanness, I simply did it out of protecting myself from putting myself out there with no return from him. In time, it has come back for both of us. We are particularly kind and loving toward one another. A few days ago we were talking about how we spend our time on the weekend. I expressed to him that I had turned down a couple of girlfriends to go out for lunch because I told them it was his only day off. So he says to me, do you think that's what happened to us before? That we didn't spend enough time together and maybe we were lonely? I said no, what happened to us is you had an affair. And he looked down, looked a bit sad and said, I know, I don't know why. I simply said there are a multitude of reasons why and he agreed. I did not delve into the conversation. OK, I'm getting windy. The best of luck still standing it is very apparent to me that you are going to be fine no matter what happens with you and your husband. Peace and light ladies.

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    1. Hi Melissa,
      I'm glad you two have found your way back to each other. And glad too that you're able to really stand your ground with regards to your own boundaries. It's amazing how much easier things are when we respect ourselves.

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  23. Hello sisters,

    So it has been about 5 weeks since my H and I separated. There have been some really hurtful and painful moments. We are not in therapy together right now - he wants to focus on individual healing right now and not focus on our marriage..... This is not what we discussed before the separation, but it's not the worst idea. Truly we both have a lot of individual healing and growing that is necessary if we do decide to repair heal and have a second marriage. I started with a new IC and so far so good, I think she will be a good fit for th work I am looking to do. I am also trying to stay really present in my life and tend to my mind body and spirit.

    I think my H is still in a bit of crsis mode.... I hope he finds his way to some healthy activities and healing. I love him so much, but there is a long way to go before we can share a life together again. We have seen each other a few times for something simple like walking the dog, we don't talk too much about us right now.

    As someone else posted, this separation has been very good for me. Hard but good. It took me year to built the strength to ask for it and be willing to work through it and face my worst fears. But I am here now, with still a long way to go, but knowing some of the strength and integrity I have to sustain me.

    Love and support to all
    Becky.

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    1. Becky,
      I think the freedom a separation offers for you to simply focus on your can do so much good. In hindsight, I wish I'd asked for one. I suspect my husband and I might have got to where we wanted to be a lot faster without the pain of constant contact.

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    2. Becky, my sweet friend, I am so proud of you. You have such beauty and wisdom. It is good to hear that you are slowly working your way toward peace and healing. I like what you said about "a second marriage". If and when you and your H decide to rebuild, it will be two healthier, stronger people leaving the past behind and making a fresh start, in a new relationship.
      Love you, precious sister! Thank you for the update.

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  24. I just wanted to say, I really admire you all that are separated. That takes guts, deep down gutsy, hard hitting strength. i wish I had separated. I'm jealous of you all and the new ways you are discovering yourself. I can relate to feeling like you concentrated on him too much. You have got me thinking about new ways to do what you are doing during R. You may feel broken but from this view you really have it together.

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  25. LLP,

    I agree with your sentiments. I am so impressed by each one of you and your insights. I at times too wonder if separation would have been better. Hard to know. It seems we are past that now but I feel parts of our relationship are still a struggle. I know it will always take work. I cannot remember who said it but on here someone mentioned how much they realized they were worrying about or taking care of their husband and how much effort was being put into his happiness. Was it you Steam? That was comment really hit home. I have myself been looking at how much effort I am putting into his happiness.

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    1. It was me Hopeful, and the thing is I did not REALIZE it. To me that's the scary part, I was not up in his business all the time and to me it sort of felt like I was just checking it, but the more withdrawn he became, the more I was checking it. It really was a relief to not need to worry about it anymore. We are seeing each other a couple of times a week now and I am trying hard to stay centered and focused on how I feel, without being selfishly self centered, and have had opportunities to tell him, and not BLAME him--because he cannot control my happiness any more than I could control his. but I can control what I "put up with" for lack of a better term. I can choose what is acceptable for me and if i choose to be around it or not!!

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    2. I am glad I remembered that correctly and thank you for sharing your findings. It has really helped me a lot. I took a step back and looked at my day to day actions and feelings. I realized that a lot of what I focused on was related to my husband. And for me as I thought about it I realized it was because it is one way I was able to feel control related to him and our marriage. But again as I keep realizing over and over is that I can only control myself. It has really helped me to be more insightful. Thank you

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    3. Yes, this is resonating for me now too... I hope it's not too late for me to 'come home' to myself instead of wasting my energies on someone who seems now to have just discarded me.

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  26. Had a bit of trouble this weekend. Got upset with my ex and lashed out, and I was embarrassed and ashamed. But it did me good in the long run, because I came to 2 important realizations.
    The first was this: my next big emotional hurdle has got to be to stop hating. A person who hasn't been through it never understands, but I know my warrior sisters do - I hate her far more than I hate him. I have mixed feelings for him, but there is still love in there, and I've vented and I've cried with him. We've resolved a lot. With her, nothing is resolved. I've never spoken to her, and never really want to. And when I talk about her or think about her, the bitterness and resentment can be overwhelming. The thing is, that bitterness and hatred doesn't hurt her. It hurts ME. It enslaves me and holds me prisoner to the past. I waste too much time thinking about a person who does not deserve my time and thoughts, a person I want to forget. Somehow, I have to forgive her. I will always hate what she did, but I have to stop hating her, so that I can be free of her. Only you, my BWC sisters, really understand how hard that will be.
    Realization number two: that she and my H are still in touch is a GOOD thing for me. He says they are only friends, that he is lonely and desperate for friends, and she is one of few people left who is still nice to him. I don't really believe that, but it's beside the point. Even if we don't demonize her, at best she is still the symbol of why I divorced him. His involvement with her was the direct cause of the greatest pain I've ever felt. That he can bear to be around her is, to me, very telling. It says that his protestations of love and pleas for forgiveness are not real. He still clings to the very thing that destroyed us.
    That's why the reminder was a good thing. For the last couple of weeks I have been prey to sentiment, to nostalgia, to a longing for the intimacy of the past. Intellectually I knew it was misguided, but emotionally I was torn. Not anymore. The reminder of their"friendship" has poured ice water over my sentimental feelings. I am strengthened in my conviction that I have absolutely done the right thing.
    I want to overcome my bitterness and build a friendship with him. I want to have a good, solid coparenting relationship with him. But I do not ever again want to be with the man who kept putting himself - and her - first. I WILL leave the pain of them in the past.
    Whew! Long post! Sorry!

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    1. That hatred, that anger is, as I so often note on this site, a mask for all the hurt and fear you have around this. And no wonder. But I think that as you work through all that hurt, the hatred will dissipate and, if you end up feeling anything at all toward her, it will be pity. She's her. And you're not.

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  27. Phoenix I'm so pleased you have come to this realisation.... His actions were always going to be the reason for staying or going and you can sleep easy knowing you made the right decision for you and your children.. I'm confident that your strength will keep you where you need to be and where you want to go.. big big hugs Phoenix xxxx

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  28. Phoenix, I absolutely agree. There were many times my husband and I spoke of divorce. Initially I told him that if we did it would be a full good bye - no friendship (we have no children.). Eventually I agreed we could be friends in divorce, yet I always maintained, I will not be your friend if you are in touch with her. As I told him, "I do not need that stress in my life." If he wants to remain in touch with her fine - his choice - and I am out of his life - my choice. You have children and will need to communicate with him in order to co-parent. I absolutely know you will give it your all for the sake of your kids.

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  29. Phoenix I love you. You have poured your heart out for months so I feel like your a good friend to me. What you have been through to come to this moment of clarity is a miracle for you. I wish you finally have some peace, you deserve it. He can wallow in his cesspool until he drowns.

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  30. Bravo Phoenix! Completely kick ass. Im so glad to hear you are getting yourself to a better place. As I was reading your posts about how your husband was trying to win you back, I so wanted that to happen for you. But then I realized that what I wanted is for that to happen for me. And really what I want for you is what is right and best and healthy for you. Sounds like your ex wants to have his cake and also his other cake and he has no idea where he's left his fork. That he can profess to love you and want you back and yet still be in touch with his AP as a "friend" shows how messed up he still is or at least that his coping strategies are pretty grim. If you are desperately lonely (and I feel like I know what that is like) you try to do things that are good for you like find a support group, meditate, exercise. His reliance on her is no different that opting to smoke or drink or do drugs to numb the pain.
    And you are allowed your moments of anger and bitterness, but you are right in that dwelling with them only hurts you. They may be holding the knife, but we step into them, when we hold on to resentment and bitterness.
    One of my meditation practices is called tonglen (I think? still learning) where you think and try to connect with the fear, pain and suffering that happens in the world all around yu. You slowly work through close conections to those at a distance from you. It sort of goes like this:
    Your first thought is about yourself "May I be free of suffering and the root of suffering." Then you go to someone close that you have lots of love for, for me thats my kids "May x and y be free of suffering and the root of suffering." Then you touch on someone you love but who is difficult, for me my H. Then you do people at a greater distance like a neighbor or the lady at the grocery store. Then you do someone who is a real challenge for you, for me that is the OW. "May "her name" be free of suffering and the root of suffering." This is especially hard for me because a) in general I kinda want her to suffer and b) I hate saying thinking or using her name because to forces me to see her as a human. But I do it because seeing her as human forces me to shift from hating her as a demon, as this incomparable Jessica Rabbit figure, to pitying her, having compassion for the sad, broken damaged girl she is. I'm not saying I don't want to throw up at the same time. But it is easier to feel sorry for her. Probably still not totally functional, but better, less fierce, less harmful that despising her. it takes away any power I might have given her about my future. Is that forgiveness? I dont know. Maybe its forgiving myself. If you meditate on the world being free from suffering, its got to include people we don't like very much.

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    1. Wow. Just wow. After writing my last post I had another difficult conversation with the ex, and was feeling discouraged. Then I came back and saw your responses, and my heart was comforted. Thank you! Others can sympathize, but y'all UNDERSTAND. You know.
      Sam, I am sending you hugs back!!! You are an awesome cheerleader.
      Melissa, you are right, I will do what I have to do for the kids. I can tell him until I'm blue in the face how much pain the contact causes me, and he feels terrible about it - but he doesn't really understand. He will never understand. Further wailing and remonstrating is pointless. I need to set guidelines regarding the kids, and then let it be.
      SS, you have so much wisdom. I love what you said about how they are holding the knife, but I can choose whether or not to walk into it. It is so true. I am divorced. They only have as much power as I will let them have. I have got to remember that. Your meditation exercise sounds like my prayers. It is very hard to pray for her, but I try. Like you, I don't want to see her as human - I see her as a cruel, heartless monster. But you know, that is what I guess the OWs do to us - they dehumanize us, see us as someone - something - whose feelings can be discounted. I will continue to pray on this. I will try to remember that yes, she is broken, and pitiful. Not a monster. Just a selfish, sad human being.
      Lynn - I love you too!!!!!!!!! Peace and hugs to you, my friend.

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    2. Still standing
      I think I used that to remove the power of the cow but for me the anger comes back so quickly when I see her car in our neighborhood or as yesterday find out she's still cyber stalking my h. I had a small melt down last night but my h was able to hold me close until I fell asleep and we discussed it over lunch and even though he doesn't really understand PTSD or the triggers at least he understands that I need his help before I get totally out of control. He just doesn't seem to know how to help me keep that witch out of my head when she won't just leave us both alone. I'm back to praying about all this for me and the ow! Vicious cycle sometimes and it leaves my h thinking that no matter what he does it still isn't any better but for me it is!

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  31. I myself am tired today. it has been a long first week back to school, or at least long nights. My son has had trouble adjusting and getting to bed, which means I am getting less sleep. which in turn means that I am feeling a little less resilient, a little less ready to face the day. And a little less able to keep my h out of my headspace. And here is the thing that is a bit ofa conundrum. The more time I spend on my own and feeling better and feeling pretty good in my own skin, the more I'm convinced that Im OK and going to be OK, the more I become sure that things will work out with me and my H and then I become impatient with the process. Why is it taking so long? But really, I suppose, in terms of the separation, we are just getting started. I'd love for him to have one of those snap out of it epiphanies, but he's stubborn and frankly, in the habit of doing whatever the hell he likes, and I think he's going to be one of those that execute a slow rise from the fog. So in the meantime, I've got to work on detaching every day. On giving less of a shit. On not being a little sad or hurt when I find out he is taking our son to mutual friends' house for college football on Saturday and it is a couple that we often did things with together. So today I am just tired and lonely and in some ways going through the motions but sometimes pretending as if you are OK, is the first step to getting OK for real.

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    1. It is easy to decide that we are going to disengage emotionally - and much harder to actually do it. I'm sorry, SS. You are so strong, but even the strong have to be weak sometimes, and little things like that football game visit can really sting. Reminds you of how different things are.
      I hope you find yourself a good distraction today. I watched last Saturday's game with my dog and cat for company, while texting madly with my mom, bro, and sister-in-law about the score. Didn't have to share the bean dip with ANYBODY. Do something fun for yourself, even if it's a little thing. You deserve it - you are amazing.
      Hugs!!!

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  32. Meta Meditation or Lovingkindness Meditation - that's what I've learned it as. Powerful and challenging. I am not certain if I have mentioned this on this site. I attended a webinar on compassionate aging as I am in the profession of assisting our elders as they age - I was introduced to an app called Insight Timer. I downloaded it onto my phone about six weeks back and I am completely hooked, if you will. It is a collection of free guided meditations from around the world. I strongly urge each and everyone of you to try it. I have meditated sitting, standing, and walking, ... walking on the beach, even driving LOL… But my favorite is lying in my bed. Right after I wake in the morning, I put on my headphones and choose a meditation. You can also bookmark the meditations which you find most touching to your heart and soul. Two of my favorites is a poem called She Let Go ( funny and uplifting) and a meditation called I Am Good ( beautiful, touching and uplifting.) And of course anything by Davidji. Please be good to yourself. Meditation is one of the greatest forms of self-care and self compassion - which can be extended to others around you and the world, as SS pointed out. After you have downloaded the app and listened to a few, please let me know what you think. Peace and light ladies.

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  33. Thankyou Melissa I've downloaded the app.. I'll let you know how I go on xx

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  34. Beach Girl jumping in here with a plug for Insight Timer too. I love that app. My husband and I both took a class at the local Mindfulness center earlier this year. He took the class on Mindfulness for Addiction Recovery and mine was Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. I think they were a turning point for both of us. Insight Timer has some of the meditations we used under Mindfulness Northwest. If you search for them and then look for Tim Burnett, you will also find a guided yoga sequence called Yoga Home Practice I think. It is comprised of basic yoga movements and takes about 35 minutes. I do this at home several times a week with my husband. There is another guy we like from England whose name is Tom Evans. He has a couple that are good. One is called Just for Today and the other is Be Calm a Little Longer. These meditations are amazing. I keep my ear buds in my purse with me and listen all the time. I find it challenging to read all the Buddha stuff but the more I read Pema, Jack Kornfield, Tara Brach, etc the more it makes sense to me and the better I feel. Much love to you all.

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    1. Thank you Beach Girl for sharing! My husband has listened to a bit and done some yoga with me, just not really his thing (I wish it were). I will look into your suggestions. It is so cool when you find a meditation you really like, you search for that author and voila!

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  35. I'm still thinking a lot about forgiveness, and about dissolving that hard mass of anger, bitterness, and resentment in my heart. I'm realizing that when I pushed through my no-contest divorce, one of the reasons I was in such a hurry so that I could leave the whole horrible, emotional mess behind. And to some extent, I did. It was no longer a daily factor in my life. I let go of a lot of fear, pain, and desperation. Moving on was really good for me in a lot of ways; the betrayal stopped dominating my daily life and thoughts. I was able to focus on other things. Like - hello - my kids. My job. My family.
    But it was naïve and overly optimistic of me to assume that I can move on completely, so quickly. I am still working through this, still processing all the emotions. I just have more space and peace within which to do it now.
    Little steps, sisters. Little steps.

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    1. They may be little steps, but Phoenix, each and everyone of those steps are important! I'm still taking baby steps myself and it's so easy to fall off into the deep areas of pain. I'm thinking of you and sending vibes of strength to keep putting one foot in front of the other! Hugs!

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    2. I thought I felt some good vibes coming at me this morning! Now I know where they were coming from. Hugs to you, and I am sending you vibes of support and strength for your baby steps, too!

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  36. I second Melissa's recommendation on the app insight timer!!! It is great!! I have been using it for about a year and really like it. Also, the meditations really work with many different faith traditions. The best thing I did right after dday was enroll in a mindfulness meditation class.

    It is amazing how the connection with my H is so strong and my willingness to keep it. The last few days he has made a few statements about healing our relationship. And of course my heart swells and I think yes, yes!! But then I am like wait.... These are just words and he is really good at words (he always has been) I need to see some actions and positive change. I lived a very painful year of him continuing an emotional affair with the OW and was way to willing to believe his words and hold space for his pain and his needs, while he gave me very little in return. I think I need to get to in touch with some anger and see what is has to teach me..... Anger is hard emotion for me, it either seems so so strong and out of my control and scary so I let go of it or it is very cerebral and rationalized and just not very helpful.... What's the deal with anger???

    Or maybe this is more about boundaries??? I am starting to think boundaries are everything.


    Love and support sisters.
    Becky.

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  37. Becky, happy to hear you love Insight Timer too. Wow, you sound so much like I during my h and I's separation - I grasped for any bit of hope that my h and I would reconcile. I was pretty much a mess. I decided I absolutely did want my husband back ... I basically did the 180 (so hard as we were a VERY communicative couple before DDay) I responded only when he reached out - yet when he wanted to extend the separation I could not, for me, I could not, would not. You know, my h's cousin, a psychologist, even advised me to pursue divorce if he chose to extend the separation - she even pointed out that couples have divorced and gotten back together; she felt that he may need that to wake up. That's not where we went, yet I did visit the divorce attorney. Yes, I do believe you are right, it's all about boundaries and ... my IC noted about anger, "you don't have to outwardly express it, but I want you to feel it. Anger is educational and provides you with information as to moving forward (as to setting boundaries). All the best Becky. I believe in you.

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  38. Right I have a confession to make .... 2 weeks ago I confronted the other woman .. This was the first time I had come face to face with her.. All I can say is what the fuk, he risked his family for that.. I'd figured I'm going to run into this bitch one day and I wanted to be in control of that so I figured I would be the one that confronted her..So this is what happened I turned up at the house she lives in with her parents.. Her mum answered the door I said 'get your daughter down here now she's been sleeping with my h' I knew she was in because her car was outside.. Her Mum was saying she wasn't in blah blah blah., I showed her mum a picture of my boys and told her that her slag of a daughter knew she was sleeping with a married man I had the conversation with her 3 years ago only for her to get involved with him again.. No means is he innocent in all this he's out on his ass living in a Bedsit he's getting his punishment by not waking up to his kids every morning.. Anyway to cut a long story short the ugly bitch came down after 5 minutes crying .. I seriously wanted to punch her in that ugly crying face but I didn't I can't remember the exact words I gave her but they weren't pretty and as I was leaving and I'm not proud of this bit but it seemed appropriate at the time, I spat in her face she didn't move, didn't flinch just stood there and took it.. I have to say I felt OK afterwards was still angry about the fact that she was nothing and no one but felt she needed to see me the wife of the man she's been shagging the mother of his 2 children and all of it became real for her when I was stood in her kitchen.. She looked shocked to the system.. Thing is if your gonna fuk around with someone's husband then you should be prepared for a visit from her that's the way I look at it.. Is been pretty fair up untill now didn't even know her name untill recently but there comes a time when enough is enough she was part of breaking my family up and deserves all she gets.. I hope to god this has woke her up and has made her realise what she has done hope she never sleeps with another married man but unfortunately I can't control that.. I was expecting a visit from the police but I think she knows she's played a big part in this and it's more embarrassing for her to even go down that road... I will never contact or go near her again I did what I needed to do to move forward with my life it was almost therapeutic to come face to face with this individual .. She is nothing no One .. So that's my confession ladies.. I'm proud of myself that I didn't punch her in the face and for being so controlled: ) xxx

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    1. SamA
      I'm proud that you didn't punch her in the face too! I'm one that looks back thinking that if my h and I could have had the nerve to face down our COW, she maybe would have been forced to see me as a person rather than as't' when she referred to me in her text that first six months but the better part of me realized early on that if our paths cross it will not be a pretty sight. Some of her text were rather viscous and she fully expected me to turn away and run from my h. She was very rough on my h as well and I felt like he deserved her harsh words. All I can say as far as your situation goes, if this made you feel better then I'm glad you were able to remain calm! Hugs!

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    2. Sam A, all I can say is that I have dreamed of spitting in her face. Thank you for doing this for real. I feel like I was right there with you. Like you did this for all of us. I feel like you are on fire, you are so powerful! Massive hugs.

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    3. WOW. Sam A. That took some serious guts and risk!!! I am glad it helped you and so far no repercussions. I have often wanted to vent my anger and pain to the OW especially because I have seen some shit wrote to my H about "society says our love is wrong, but we know it's beautiful blah blah bull shit". Yes it is WRONG to fuck around with someone else's spouse!!! It is never right!!!!

      Pheonix - I also still have a lot of hate and anger towards the OW, it is not as bad as it used to be, but there is still a lot there I will have to come back around to deal with. When I think of striking out at her I generally come back to Elle's wise words. "Hurt people, hurt people". And she and my H are both very hurt people.

      Sam - once again super gutsy!! So happy and relieved you got that anger out and no repercussions for you.

      Love and support sisters
      Becky.

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    4. Becky
      I understand the pain of having to read the cow's justifications for their love making adultry something God would forgive and she understands why he chose the easiest way by staying in the marriage. This was the first month after dday and then she contacted me again and that's when I planted doubt in her mind because I told her she wasn't the first and all the others were now out of his life. Omg! It was almost funny how she reacted to the news. She kept texting my h to meet her so she could see truth in his eyes. I got fed up with the drama and sent a text from his wife and she told me to stay out of their conversation so then I sent one from my h telling her he was sorry for hurting her with all his lies and she didn't believe it was him until he used one of 'our ' favorite phrases, now that's what I'm talking about! Well I realized that he spoke to her the same as me and my feelings were so hurt! Shortly after that my h was forced to file the harrassment charges and that's over a year and a half ago but she still is hung up and obsessed with my h. I'm slowly coming to terms with all the shit my h has had to endure trying to end the affair that he honestly was finished with the first couple of months. Once the new wore off the sex. She was a hurt broken woman when my h rescued her from homelessness following her contentious divorce. These are her words used to justify her love for him. This has been the hardest two years of our lives for both of us! However we pick ourselves up and we are trying to do the best we can one day at a time. I've had plenty of conversations in my head about what I would say if I was confronted by her and the first thing I would say is he told you three years ago that he didn't love you and you are the one that decided you could live just being his 'fuck buddy' I'm his wife leave us the hell alone! I doubt that I would have the balls to stay calm enough but it works in my fantasy! Hugs!

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  39. Thanks, y'all, for turning me on to Insight Timer! I am really enjoying it!
    Becky, anger can be helpful and useful when it comes to setting boundaries and standing up for yourself. It was pointed out in my divorce group, also, that anger is a natural and right reaction to injustice. But it is strong medicine, and it needs small doses; it is easy to get addicted to that feeling of righteous anger. That is what I'm struggling with right now. Sending you love and hugs, sweetheart! You are beautiful.

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  40. Or Standing Still. I don't feel like I am anywhere or getting anywhere today or sometimes. Just feeling low. Not enough sleep, too much time in my head. Feeling discouraged and that restless should be doing but there's nothing for me to do. Looking for clues, signs and portents where there are none. Just need to be patient and kind to myself and take time to stand still and take a deep breath.
    Saw my h a couple of times on Sat. Just before lunch as he came to pick up our son to go to watch college football. And he said one of his hey you's as he walked in. I don't even think he realized it. I can tell he's lonely and craving interaction because he's very talkative whenever we get together, even briefly. He hugged me before they left. I felt pretty happy about it and then annoyed with myself. Don't put too much weight on anything he says or does because he's still in mindfuck land.
    My daughter brings up holidays. Last month as the separation began, she had asked me if I would not go to Thanksgivng - we take a trip to relatives, a large group, and she was afraid it would just be awkward with all of us "pretending to be a family." We ll on Saturday she says it will probably be ok if I go. That things are not so tense as she expected. I let he know again that we can call it closer to the time and that I had a back up plan involving my sister and her husband that would let us all be together for our Black Friday tradition etc. I think she was pleased that I had heard her and had planned accordingly. I also let he know how much I appreciated her bringing that up.
    So later I see my h again as he is bringing my son back. He had hoped for the boy to stay at his place, but my son is a home body and had indicated that he has no intention of staying there ever. Ouch. (But part of me is thinking good, let that sink in to my H's head as another consequence of his choices). But we have another friendly interaction, sit together outside a little. I'm in good spirits. I can't even remember anything specific, but like you Becky, my heart swells with any positive, any hint that he might be coming around.
    I had had a fun afternoon watching the game with my daughter. Later went to neighbors for cake and wine. It was a birthday. we had lots of fun and hung out too late, but things went downhill from there. I know wine is a bit of an achilles heel and I had four instead of my usual two glasses. Definitely felt it with bad sleep and just crummy the next day. Just stupid. I know what it does to me. And one convo with a neighbor really sent me down into confusion, doubting my gut. My h had been confiding to him for a while, but has backed off after they had a bit of a falling to back in april. Now they still hang out occasionally but just superficial, no discussing how my h is doing or what is in his head. So long and short this person tells me, Im not in the relationship and you are, so you may know things I don't but your h has given me no indication this is not a permanent thing. I was kind of stunned but then I processed and realized this person has not been sitting on the MC couch with us. He hasn't heard my h talk about how Im his best friend, how he admitted just a few weeks into separation that he misses me. And that of course he's not going to admit anything to anyone about where his head is at, least of all a neighbor who he feels is looking down on him and his choices. That he's not talking to anyone about what he's aiming at, if he even knows, except maybe his therapist. But still in trying to tell this neighbor about the progress and the tings I hope for, it all started to feel...hollow, useless, methink she doth protest too much.

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  41. Part 2
    And my sis talked me off the ledge. I am so grateful for her support and love. And I don't think she would sugar coat. She is very insightful and I think would tell me if she saw writing on the wall. Its OK for me to keep the door open. I just have to remin dmyself he may choose not to walk through it, may not even understand what a gift that open door is. t makes me want to cry, after a bad night's sleep. We had talked about getting together for coffee today since we don't have an MC session this week. And I thought about it so much last night. we don't have a time or location or anything and so 'm kind of hanging and wondering and chances are he's completely forgotten or blanking because he's in avoidance mode. And it makes me want to cry. And it makes me annoyed with myself for mooning around like a teenager, waiting for my crush to text or call. And I'm feeling overwhelmed by the housework and my kids not really pitching in like they did the first weeks. (school's back, I get it). And right now I am tired of waiting. And my heart hurts and I'm pms. and I am starting to have struggles with my weight again. Really had felt like I had that part of myself in a better place, but for the last couple of weeks have had to work at keeping below my top number. But a weekend of free eating and too much wine, really set me back. I know I need to be kind to myself. This is not complete collapse, just a little lapse. And I had given my self permission to make and enjoy some strawberry shortcake wth me son. We had fun so it was worth it but now I need to just get back in the habit of tracking my food until I am back where I want to be. I can do this as self care and not punishment. Just hard to fight those very old, deep rooted stories about my worth.
    I used an app called Calm to meditiate, but I just got Insight Timer too. They are different and I am grateful for the lessons in both.
    So Iam sitting here feeling tired, lonely, overwhelmed, hopeless and yet still hanging on.
    My heart and gut tell me it is worth hanging on. I still believe in him a little bit. I looked at his life and can understand how he got where he did. I'm not saying Im not angry and hurt that he chose to turn away from me rather than seek me, but I can see how the things in his childhood and life shaped that. And unlike him, I can see the dark without it obscuring the light, the good things about him. The fundamental things I believe about him and that I fell in love with. And I realize that grown up love is work, that it is not always romance and rainbows and unicorns. And if you asked me now if I was "in love" with him. I can honestly say no. I could through the "I love you, but I am not in love with you." shit right back in his face. But I understand that all relationships have seasons and those things grow when we water them and I am still willing to work on it. But I can't do it on my own. I suppose I am still attached to that idea of an "us" that gets through adversity and grows old together.
    So today I am sad, feeling weak, feeling foolish, feeling like I "should" be doing better, more focused my myself etc. etc. But that "should" is a big clue. That I need to take a deep breathe and let the feelings come and stand still in the center of where I am wherever that happens to be.
    Fucking Mondays.

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  42. I need some help. am confused, emotional, scared. Scared. Scared. Just met up with my h for coffee as agreed. Was pleasant. I think he was happy to see me. I let him set the pace for conversation as I don't want to appear in any way to be in pursuit of him. trying to give him time and space to figure his shit out.And talk about mixed messages. We were talking about the kids. He brings up our son and how he seems to be dong well, but maybe not in touch with the reality of the separation and my h says "I think he thinks that after this things will just go back to normal" referring to the separation. "but things will never be the same again." And that his a very soft scared part of me. what is he saying, what is the message? Because yes I agree that things will never be the same. But is he telling me he's not intending to come back? Arg. But I don't ask, not ready to know and I don't think he knows and I'm scared. And we are talking about other things, how we each are doing. he talked about how he was happy for me about all the good stuff on my recent ny trip. And also about how he feels guilty especially when he comes to the house and especially when he thinks about some of the things I've said in MC like how the little girl in me just doesn't understand why I am such a hard choice. He talked about how he needs to work through his guilt and that was some of what he was doing with his therapist right now. And even she is saying that things will never be the same. But is that guilt because of the hurt he's caused or because he doesn't want to reconcile and isn't telling me or just in general because he doesn't know what the hell he wants? Arg arg arg. And these things will never be the same phrases scare the shit out of me. Could be looked at through two different lenses. A) the lens of getting in touch with what hie's done and why or B) he's really just exiting. Fuck.
    And then we talk about the new job and how much better that is and how he hadn't realized how the old one had sucked the life out of him for so long (hello, contributing factor to low self esteem) and how he is building this new thing and he cant wait to see the folks at the old place react when they see what he does And I asked sort of like revenge? And he said not revenge, just when they realize what they gave up and that they fucked up, hard. And then he paused and heard what he had just said. And the look on my face must have been priceless, because he looked at me like "Oh. Shit." and looked down. You can't make this shit up. And then we talked some more.
    And ten he got a call and he had to go. As we were leaving he gave me a hg and said this was good. we should do more of this. Honestly, no wonder I am reeling.
    Can anyone who has been through this hazy phase and separation with their h tell me what the fuck just happened? I can see some positives and also some confusion. And I am still standing here holding the door open and dammit, I love him. And I fucking hate him for putting me through this. And at the same time recognizing that it is my choice to go or stay. I can be done any time I decide. I feel like a crazy person.

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  43. Still standing your not crazy at all.. The situation is crazy.. I know it may seem like a lifetime and you want to rush ahead with this but please remember that at this stage all you can really do is live day by day, .. There isn't a timeline and you shouldn't give yourself one as you maybe setting yourself up.. I was very much like you ss in the beginning of the separation I was being kind, reaching out etc etc and felt like I was getting nothing fast so I held back got on with my own shit and worked on what I needed.. Things change tables turned he's now the one reaching out for me I'm just not ready for him at the moment I might never be ready I need more time.,, were into month 5 of separation and nothing much as changed its early days ss and it gives you the space you need to figure out what you want whether that's hourly/ daily.. Just remember you are fine you will be fine with or without him.. I've loved following your story and I've been jealous at how you have crammed so many activities and visits into your life... It's great keep them coming... Who knows what the future holds ss all we can focus on is here and now... Your a strong lady with a big big heart .. Lots of love xxx

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  44. Thanks Sam A for the wisdom. I spent some time on the trail, ran my tears, ran through my cooling imaginary ocean of water. And spent some time with a close friends. Got jack all done for work, but there's always tomorrow. Tonight my h comes for dinner wiht the kids. I've decided to make myself scarce. Having dinner with my friend who also goes to painting class with me. Enjoying the weather. So glad I have therapy and a massage tomorrow. It is good to be reminded that I am OK, that all I have to get through is today, the next hour the next few minutes.It is good to be reminded that it is early days. Plenty of time, all the time I need. Thanks again Sam A hugs

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    1. That's the way ss, putting yourself first!!! Well done you xxx

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  45. Ugh: here is one of the reasons I am glad that I remain separated. My H has been over the last three nights, we've both been a bit sick and i didnt have the heart to throw him out. tomorrow we have a big 'disclosure" at therapy, our first therapy together since this whole thing went down.

    So i dont know why he decided to tell me two things I didnt already know last night instead of waiting until tomorrow. He told me that he had a secret credit card (along with his secret phone) and he's kept in touch with one of his OW's. the ONLY one who knows that I even exist me, and at the lowest of his lows, she became quite a "friend" to him--suffice it to say he has an odd definition of friendship. He paid her and screwed her and lied to her about me three times in May right before i found out-- and took her to lunch and he wondered if maybe we might all want to get together sometime when things are better. WHAT in the HOLY FECK. Right now she is in another country and soon will be closer to us yet still in another area that we visit quite often. Here comes the damn re-trauma. I told him this was just absolute Bullshit, that he's been in touch as recently as a week and a half ago and didnt tell me. what in the hell? If i don't learn everything at the damn disclosure tomorrow then I just don't know what. Why must they fucking insist to drag this shit out so so long.... I feel like my weekend was just STOLEN from me. It was my first sleepless night in MONTHS. taking a step backwards just sucks. I can't even find anything profound in it right now, I am so so angry.

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    1. Steam I totally understand why your angry.. You've every reason to be.. But part of me wants to say I'm pleased your h has opened up to you that shows that you've made him feel comfortable enough to do so,, maybe not the things you wanted to hear (ESP the part of the 3 of you meeting up) I mean what is he thinking!!!! maybe he feels too comfortable to even suggest such a thing.. I hope you brought this up in your joint session that's def something that needs discussing.. Sounds like he needs more time on his own to figure out his stuff.. Steam I'm so sorry for what your going thorough personally I'd be inclined to give him his space, as the closer you two get the more it will hurt when he discloses such hurtful things.. I liked your idea of just texting and email immediately after d day I have days when that's all I can manage.. Steam you will find a way to move forward I know it might feel like a step backwards but look at it this was it maybe A step forward .. Let us know how you got on in your session.. Big hugs steam .. Xxx

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    2. Steam
      I can see the steam rushing out of your ears! I see why and all I can say is that I continue to be disappointed in the choices your h makes! By all means bring this out during therapy! Hugs!

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    3. Yes I did feel better just texting and emailing. I'm a bit resentful actually that he's been here so much. I've cut him slack because he's been sick. But since I too have been sick a helpful hand would have been nice. This stupid OW thing. The contact he claims is non sexual and he's willing to show me the messages (she's a prostitute) but what pisses me off? I know I was vicious the first 9 days of this violation in June. He turned to her because he could tell no one else how shitty he felt. Ok ok I get that. But to be in contact with her still? While we're seeing each other ??? After he screwed her long enough to get caught? Massive lie by omission. I really don't know if his brain is screwed in there right. On my way to therapy now. Really fucking sick of all of this.

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    4. Steam, I'm sorry for your pain, and the additional trauma. It seems never -ending right now. For all of us. We have to believe there is an end in sight. I don't blame you for being so angry. You don't deserve to be going through this. It is so, so wrong.
      You are a Warrior Queen. You are worth a million of those deceptive dumsels. Know your worth. I'm thinking of you, and sending hugs and support.

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  46. I went to yoga tonight and came home and cried in a way I haven't for 3 weeks. It is so powerful and sometimes painful to feel in your body.

    Still standing my heart is with you, I am also getting some mixed signals and it is painful and confusing. And I'm pissed and I'm hurt and deserves better. As always a huge comfort and refuge is the love and support of sisters here.

    My love and support to all
    Becky.

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    1. Sending hugs to you, Becky. The crying is hard, but it is good for us. That's what we do - we cry it out and we get on with it.
      You definitely deserve better, honey. It needs to get better. He needs to come to his senses, before it is too late. I pray that he does, or he will lose the best thing in his life - you.
      Love you, Becky.

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  47. God I'm in such a crap hole this morning. Crying, tired, didn't sleep until after 1. Just. So. Done. Trying to mind read and tell the future. Crying. Googling "wayward husband fog" and stupid crap like that. So hurt, so confused. Meditation to get out of my head. Even gratitude brings more tears. I know my emotions are all over and I just need to let be. Im fighting it too hard. I'm so afraid that I've just been telling myself fairy tales. I'm afraid he is getting too comfy being "just friends" with me. My close insightful friend says he is still in affair lala land, still justifying and I can't expect real, healthy or logical response from that place.
    I also realized that this past week was my first full week home since we officially separated. That all the rest involved some travel, some escape. And now I'm sitting on a shitpile of reality.
    I don't want to be ok, today don't want to hear that I'll be ok no matter what, that I'm strong. I'm fucking tired of being strong. I don't want ok on my own. I don't want a divorce. I don't want a husband who can't make up his fucking mind. I want him to decide to come home. I want him to wake up to what he's put at risk. I want him to want me. I'm just so tired. Today.
    I also saw, on my run yesterday, a group of turtles sunning on a log. I never notice them, usually I'm scouting for birds as messengers. So I figured the turtles we an important notice from my subconscious. It's patience, slow and steady wins the race, endurance, constancy of purpose and to take one day at a time. Wow. Exactly the reminder I needed. Even if I'm having a tough time accepting it. I'll keep at it.

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    1. Still standing
      Terri St. Cloud posted on FaceBook that she saw a tree that she had previously jogged by literally for years and never saw the beauty in it until this morning! I hear exhaustion in your words and I understand why you feel how you feel. I'm glad you saw the turtles just like I told Terri how glad I was she met her tree! Because Elle introduced me to her words, I follow her on face book for inspiration! Hugs!

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    2. You're right, SS. Sometimes you just have to give in, let go, and realize that your emotions are going to be a mess for a while. We can't always be strong. Sometimes I feel so weak and pitiful. I pray that you will get through this very low time, one hour at a time. Hugs!

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  48. Still Standing, and Becky, I know exactly how you feel with the mixed messages. OMG! Do I know! You are sitting at dinner with a man that you've known for over 20 years, your husband mind you, and you feel so very uncomfortable. The best insight I can give you is, recognize that your husband is confused. You cannot control him or his choices. You can only control your own. Do you want to be with him? Maybe you do not know a definitive answer to that question right now. And as we know, that is fine. Sometimes my husband would say something that implied we would not be together for the rest of our lives and I would feel sad or angry. Yet then I would realize that I too had very similar thoughts, I just did not vocalize them. A therapist once told me that I should tell him to keep those thoughts to himself. He should go talk to a friend, or a counselor, yet he should not be unloading his confusion on me. I don't know that I agreed with the therapist, yet I do know and recognize that I, especially then, had a lot of confusion myself. Again, the book that our marriage counselor at the time recommended to me was invaluable to me during my separation and even after my husband are back home. I will find the exact name and author and post it here.

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  49. Thanks ladies for your support.. I'm glad I came away unscathed and without a police arrest : ) ss, I had dreamt about it too lol it was so much better in the real life ...I would never suggest anyone do what I did it was a 'risk' like you said becky one which could have landed me in trouble, she took a risk with my life my kids lives and I felt like she wasn't going to get away with it.. Like I said that will be the last she sees or hears from me, it was the last jigsaw puzzle to this sorry mess. It's all about me and the boys now.. My h can have that low life I mean she really is low life I've seen it for myself... Made me feel good seeing what a dog she was..

    I knew you ladies would understand .. Thank you xxx

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  50. Becky I know exactly how you feel.. The power of yoga, massage and meditation is massive for our pain and our healing.. I'm glad you released your emotions hope you feel a little better for doing so.. A few weeks ago I went for a massage and cried right in the middle of it I was so bloody emotional the poor masseur was surprised but handled it really well.. We joked about it after saying she'd never made anyone cry before lol.. Becky your working through this bit by bit .. We are with you every step of the way.. Sending you some peace and a big hug xxxx

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  51. Divorce Busting by Michelle Weiner Davis. That is the book recommended by our marriage counselor (to me) during our separation and after. I found the book to be invaluable, especially the chapters on infidelity and midlife crisis. I just discovered she also has a website, divorce busting.com
    Finally, Elle, Way back you had posted a link to an article about a man leaving his family and his wife's reaction, or should I say lack of action. It was very helpful to me… Not sure if you know what I'm talking about.
    As for the book I just noted. I would go back and reread it, at least those sections, time and again to get my head in the right place. Again, it depends on your own personal choice and where you want to be. Xoxo

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  52. Becky, I remember when Elle said that, about how hurt people hurt people, and it struck me at the time. Those messages from the OW you mentioned about "our love" - yes, it turns my stomach. How sick these people are. Reminds me of phrases I can never get out of my head. I quote stuff to my ex, and he says, exasperated: "How many times did you read those?" Too many, it's true, but it didn't take much repetition to engrave them in my psyche. I hate to say it, because I'm trying to get her poison out of my system and out of my life, but I do still imagine, almost daily, facing her down and forcing her to see that she is not a poor, sweet, loving heroine - she is a shallow, selfish, heartless, lying skank. Which brings me to you, Sam....
    Wow! I know, it's not supposed to be a good idea. And I'm sure in my case the repercussions would not be worth it. But I think we are all living vicariously through you right now, just a little. All the things we've imagined saying and doing, the ways we've wanted to make them see us as people, like Theresa said, and to make them understand what a rotten and low thing they have done, how much pain they have caused. I'm glad it worked out well for you.
    I am trying to keep to my new resolution, not to discuss the past with my ex at all. It always just makes me feel worse. Please pray that I can keep my resolution!

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  53. Still Standing, if I hear one more thing about "how strong" i am, i'm going to start swinging.

    I hear you!! And I am wishing you a soft place to land.

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  54. This is from my morning devotion. This is what I've been telling myself. This is what I need to work on.

    "One of the hardest things we must ever do is to learn to forgive. It is not something that comes easy to us, but it is vital for our healing.

    Unforgiveness is a poison we drink thinking it will harm someone else, but all it does is harm us. When we allow experiences against us to continually affect us negatively, we have continued to allow that person to control our well-being and healing. Don’t let that happen to you.

    I know right now you may not be ready to forgive, and that is understandable. But if you refuse to deal with it, a root of bitterness will be growing within your soul that grows every day, getting deeper with every passing moment. Every day you ignore it just makes the removal of the root that much harder and harmful.

    If you see a weed in your garden, do you let stay there? Did you know that it is robbing nutrients and water meant for the fruit God is trying to grow in your garden? Every day you wait, the root grows bigger and its seeds will eventually affect the whole garden, if you don’t deal with it.

    If you are not ready to forgive today, just make a decision to move towards that more and more every day. God will help you and He will give you a heart to do it."

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    1. Phoenix this is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

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  55. So I know I am very, very pms right now and this is and has been consistently a difficult time over the last nine months. Just... intensifies everything I'm feeling and I get a bit, well, darker. I actually got an app that lets me track my cycle and gives me little reminders that its coming "send the women and children to the root cellar! It's coming!".
    And I am sitting here doing a gut check on my anxiety. Just how "real" is it? Because sometimes it's my body letting me know it's picked up on something really wrong. Like a year ago, my anxiety went through the rough. I didn't know what was wrong with me. Now I know I had subconsciously picked up on my h's changing behavior and increased distance because his (at the time) emotional affair was ramping up. My body was trying to tell me what it knew. (I'm wondering if my anxiety bow has anything to do with that timing). And later when he fell off the wagon in Feb and was back in touch. And before he disclosed the birthday trip. But there have been other times when it was other factors, like some friends told us they figured out what was going on. Big trigger. Or just me getting caught up in his crazy train. Bug today that baseline chest tightness is back. You all know I've had a rough couple of days. How much is from my neighbor "warning" me that my h has not given him any sign this is a permanent thing? Which hits me in a soft spot. How much is just my emotional state from hormones? And how much is from something my brain picked up from coffee Monday? I just can't tell.
    I think I have to trust my gut in not placing the neighbor's perspective above my own. He's not had a real conversation with my h since April when they had a but if a falling out over thus situation. I feel like he's that last person my h would open up to at the moment and so his info is out if date. In fact may have emotionally set me back to that time despite good intentions. When I think calmly about it that feels right.
    I think I just need to wait out my cycle and see if I can back down. So, as usual, take each day as it comes, and one at a time. I've got a reiki session later, another me time thing. And allowing myself to be off the hook for being too productive. And interrupting thoughts that I am not mom enough if I'm nit cooking every day etc etc. Got a better sleep last night, always good. Need more. Hope everyone is hanging in. Hugs.

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  56. My h told me three weeks ago that he had been seeing a coworker and that he thought we should separate. Tonight he says he wants a trial separation, living in the OW's recently-vacated apartment (she is away traveling, but they are still in phone contact). He is "90% sure" we should split up forever (whatever that means). I guess he wants to keep his options open. I was in favour of us working on our marriage and trying again- but I don't know if I can be that strong/ stupid. We have a baby who is still breastfed and only recently started sleeping through the night (my resulting lack of energy maybe a factor in my h's betrayal...). I am also afraid that our daughter will be upset by his absence. I think she is too little to go stay with him without me. He wants us to have her for a week each. I think she should stay in her home and her familiar bedroom. It's an extra stress at an already horrible time. I am so exhausted.

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    1. Oh Anon 7-14, I'm so sorry that you are here, but so glad you found us. You must be exhausted and traumatized and no wonder. First, "My resulting lack of energy may be a factor in my h's betrayal". No. It wasn't. Your husband and his poor coping skills and shitty choices are the only factors in his betrayal. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. You just had a baby. You are still breastfeeding. Maybe if he had helped more you might have been less tired. These things are never as simple as these cheaters make them out to be. This is not your fault. Please get that. You don't deserve this.
      You think about what you need right now. Are there friends and family who can come help so you can get some rest? Find yourself a therapist. You are the breastfeeding mum. You get to set the criteria about how he does or doesn't get to visit your daughter if he decides to leave. Does he expect yu to pump for a week at a time? More selfishness. So please first and foremost, think about what you need and want right now in order to be safe. If you are not OK with your baby going over to the OW's house, you get to say no to that. And anything else that doesn't work for you. He sounds like he is full on affair crazy. I hear and feel how tired you are. Don't go this alone. Reach out to people or family you trust and get help. Read through the posts here. There is a lot of wisdom, that has saved me on many occasions. You do not, nor should not make any permanent and life altering decisions right now. You have received a huge traumatic shock. Right now just focus on getting through each day (and night) in the kindest and gentlest way for you. I know you'll hear from other folks on here too. Deep breath. Much love.

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    2. Anonymous
      I'm so sorry for the pain I know you feel! Not to mention the baby that's nursing! I'm sure you are worn out just by the newness of being a mom! Still standing is right! This is all on him and his choices. He sounds like a very immature man. For you, it's time to slow down and be kind to yourself. I so wish I could have done that in the beginning of my journey on this path. I too blamed me for being over weight, not energetic enough...the list goes on... But the truth is that you are not what his affair is about! It's about something missing in him and until he realizes what he's about to lose, all he's thinking about is himself. It's not easy finding out that our h isn't quite the man we thought he was. Just keep reading the posts of this blog and keep in touch...we all know how bad it feels and how lonely it is when you're facing the possibility of separation! Hugs for you!

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    3. Thank you, Still Standing. I think you really do understand. I am pretty shocked. I keep thinking back to see how I never guessed or suspected anything. I think my h is completely unaware of all the pain he is causing. He's in a self-centred world of his own, even telling me stuff about ow that I just do not want to hear. He is a good dad (with one major exception, i.e. cheating on the baby's mom) and I don't want him to disappear from our daughter's life. But I sure do not want her going to that place. My family are far away and I haven't told my parents yet. They will be so upset for us all and I am dreading facing this new 'reality'. This blog is very VERY helpful to me. I can't imagine how people survived this kind of thing before.

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    4. Anonymous,

      I am so sorry for all you are going through right now, all the sisters on this site I have been there one way or another. I know when our worlds collapse we starting thinking.... I should have know what if this..... What if that..... Just take a deep breath and know 2 things 1) this is not your fault at all, in no possible way is this your fault !!! We are in no way responsible for our H's terrible hurtful decisions. 2) you really don't need to make any big decisions right now.

      Right focus on taking care of yourself and your beautiful baby. Just do the basics: sleep, sleep is so so so important and you may be having terrible insomnia. I did. Try something to help you sleep, it is critical. Also try to eat, especially breastfeeding you need to keep up your strength.
      Think about boundaries you need to help you through this. There are some great posts on this site about boundaries- I highly recommend you read those

      I know you said your parents live far away, is there any friends that could offer you support and help with the baby??? I know the shock and pain and shame can keep us from reaching out for help we need. I did not tell anyone for about 10 months and it was a very heavy burden to carry alone. Maybe think carefully, if there is someone you trust to support you. Finally, I highly recommend finding a therapist and reading about Infedelity. Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass was really helpful for me.

      Breath rest and take care - none of us ever expected this to happen in our marriages and never knew the depths of pain it brings, but you are not alone. Your sisters are here with love and support.
      Becky.

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    5. Thank you, Theresa- yrs, h seems to be very immature right now, actually like a different person to the one I thought I knew. And thank you too, Becky. Boundaries are something I really need. We're still in the same house, having dinner together, etc. Incredibly surreal. He told me today there was no contact with ow for 3 days (don't know whose choice that was, but suspect not his). He's planning to move out in 2 weeks. We're going to a counsellor together next week. He wants to talk logistics. I want to talk feelings. Who knows where it will go. I am so glad of your support, blog sisters. It makes me feel less alone.

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    6. Surreal - is the word for it!!!!! Yes it the early days things are super crazy!!! I look back and think what the ????? How did I say that??? Or live through that??? Or handle that??? I think I was a zombie for several months.

      The truth is you have more strength than you know, just breathe, be gentle with yourself, love your baby, and slowly (unfortunately painfully) things will move forward. You are not alone

      Love
      Becky. You

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    7. At the counselor's, he said he needed time away from me to see if he missed me or not. He is showing ZERO emotions except frustration when I ask him to explain why/ when he lost his love for me. I'm actually starting to wonder if there is a problem with his brain because most of what he says does not make sense. Becky,you are right. I never thought I could keep (relatively) calm over such a traumatic event. Things are hard, but I believe we will at least move on from this stagnant marsh of confusion when he (and I) have to start telling other people. Both sets of parents will be so upset.

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  57. My day in two parts

    part 1

    SS I can't remember where I read this before, but it was years ago, that just because you have PMS does not mean the issues are not REAL. We just have to work at controlling our behaviour.
    Phoenix, thanks for the reminder on forgiveness, it's the one thing that I have not been able approach, I have thought of it as "amnesty" and i thought that was good enough. Maybe it's not.
    AFter a horrific morning (by morning I mean 4 am) when I could not sleep , I looked at the texts to this OW/friend that MY H had offered to let me see because he claimed they were so innocent and i would "see that". i was really uneasy--so i looked while he slept. I did not want them read to me, him possibly trying to "justify" them, and honestly, I don't think he ever thought they needed justifying. He was just having a convo he insisted, with someone who's become "a friend".
    Let’s just say I did not "see that" and I doubt any of us would see them as all that innocent.
    His "good morning" texts to her 1 minute after he woke up (gag) his offers to mentor her in another field, the vacation pictures she sent to him and this other stuff was not the sort of stuff you send to a casual new "friend" no matter what he thinks.
    His telling her how he would do anything to make ME happy, etc etc etc--she never, of course, told him to leave me, she doesn't care, she's a prostitute, so nothing lost on her part except some future income. Her: cheering us on about getting back together. I didn’t feel the need to spit in her face Sam A-lol but UGH so inappropriate. NONE of her business
    He sent her albums to listen to-cheery messages, leaned a bit on her shoulder-you get the gist.
    The scariest part to me is that he thought this was SO ok he was going to show them to me. I rarely to never drink., but after I woke him up by throwing his phone on the nightstand and mumbling how stupid this all was, I grabbed a bottle from the freezer and struck one of her vacation poses--except I wasn’t wearing a bathing suit like she was and drank right from the damn bottle. Classy. NOT
    I have not been this pissed in MONTHS. It was not my shining moment. I told him I was fucking around (untrue, and i told him that later) I just wanted to do ANYTHING to hurt him and I guess I did because he spent the next hour and a half packing to leave, He was pissed at me for the rest of the day for me being pissed and cancelled his visit tonight, which is actually really good because i realize now that I am getting emotionally drained again and I can't do that again. Nor can i sleep with someone who has not said goodbye to this "friend".
    IN therapy he had told me and the shrink he had a goodbye letter ready to go, telling her that if there was any contact it would need to be through me--(UGH_WHAT?) I was a little embarrassed at that and didn’t even refer to it again but I was pissed that 12 hours later he had not sent ANYTHING to say goodbye. His excuse? it was in his computer. So how is it, that he was going to read it in therapy but was unable to send it within 12 hours.

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  58. Thank goodness for 12 step which pounded the ONLY thing into my head that I could figure out during the day---that addicts brains are wired differently. If he thought this was ok this is obviously a mental thing. He was pissed at my anger, but what the heck else was I to have? I spent all day trying to figure out ways to keep it in check. but the reality? I was angry. I can’t deny it exists. I asked if he wanted out. He asked me the same. I told him if I wanted out I would not drag it out this long and few would chastise me for leaving., the shrink told us there could be an incredible payoff if we ride this out, so I’m doing my best at the ride.
    I just need to refigure this rentry to the real world, my January date I think is a good one I told him to call me when he told her goodbye. He says he's sent it today but she hasn’t read it yet. So, I'll take it one step at a time. The weird thing? I’m really ok. I really am.

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    1. Steam, that sounds like a feckin roller coaster. Goddamn. I'm glad you're OK. And I'm holding that in my heart for you. Be OK. Let's all be OK.
      I'm still pooped. but better. Still Standing, on my feet and with the door open. My MIL made dinner out of the blue last night, just when I needed. And my sis called for no reason, just when I needed. And I realized that even though I am freaking out, nothing really has changed. Except that while we are separated I don't have to have the pain, emotional abuse and indignity in my face. I have less info on his day to day ups and downs, but that is probably healthier for me. I'm not being woken up at 3:30 to hold him while he cries. I'm not wondering why he's taking so long in the bathroom or why the basement door is locked. I don't have to live with that ever again. Because even if he wants to move back, those things will need to be discussed and ruled out. And like you Steam, I know no one would fault me for leaving (except maybe my kids, may daughter less so, she wonders why I'm still trying, even if she secretly wants me to keep going, but my son might blame me - so I do fight on for them as much as me) and I also believe there is a tremendous payoff for folks who work through this. I want to be the wife who is valued for her loyalty, for sticking through this when few would still be here, for continuing to believe in him (and myself) even when he didn't believe anymore.
      Last night as I was in the shower a song came on my phone. The song. One I was sure I had deleted from all libraries and playlists. It was the song he played on his guitar in our basement non stop for the week between dday one and their attempt to end it. It was Proof, by Coldplay and it fucking tore me apart that he was playing that in our basement, on the guitar I bought for him when we got engaged and I knew he was thinking of her. And it came on when I was in the shower. And I had been thinking about him and her and wondering whether they were still in touch or not or where his head was. And you know. Hearing that song didn't kill me. It actually even took me a few beats to realize what I was hearing. And then I kind of did a mental shrug and let the song play out. And I thought about this, meditated on it even. Was it some kind of sign that they were still carrying on, that when I had thought he had said a goodbye during his last week at the old job, it had been my imagination or they had once again fallen off the wagon. And I sort of didn't care. The song didn't hurt me. I was mad about what he did, but I wasn't bleeding this time. And I took that to mean that one way or another her power or what I though of as her power was waning, that if it is, its not what it was. That this is an endurance race and I've fucking got that in spades. Because my goals and wishes and desires remain. That I give this my all, so that when it is done and we are on to something new, together or apart, I can look at myself, I can look at my kids and know I wasn't the one who gave up. That I was honest and real and loyal. That I'm a goddamn super hero. And that even super heroes have their dark days and their moments of doubt, but that doesn't change their fundamental nature or their truth. So wow.
      Eyes and brain tired. Very distracted. Finding it hard with the kids at school, to know what to do with myself and little energy to do things. But I'm allowed. I'm resting up for the next leg of the run.

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    2. Steam,

      That is the worst. I was thinking the other day about something similar. After dday I asked my husband to delete his fake email and fb page. His answer to me was he didn't know how to do that. I could not believe it. So you were able to create these pages but you cannot delete them. Like he has no idea google exists. It reminds me a little of not sending the letter. And what drives me crazy about my husband is I know automatically what is right and wrong. Like his conversation with his friend and thinking it is okay. You are right they have to be wired differently. Or I have said to my husband maybe I am not the one for you. It goes against every part of who I am.

      Still standing I totally agree with giving this my all. And I too know my kids will always know I tried, never gave up, gave it my all, was honest, loyal and trustworthy. I know they can tell this without knowing what has happened between my husband and I. And in the end you are right together or apart this will serve us so well.

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  59. You're lucky SS that you know what you want. I knew exactaly what I wanted after D-day 1--he made a mistake and it sure looked like he was going everything right, i think he did his best in 2015 and i knew he was a flawed human who messed up and i was willing to rebuild or start from scratch or whatever--but this time? Now with the sex addiction and OCD running wild? I just dont know what i want anymore. Will i always be waiting for the other shoe to drop? it's SAD and i can't quite muster up tears, still. I dont feel sorry for me, not one bit--i just feel unsure of my past choices and wonder what the heck--am i making a bad one again?.It's FAIRLY new behaviour, it has not been going on for the 16 years we've been together it's progressed like any addiction...but has it been nipped in the bud? can it ever be? will the thoughts and compulsions ever really stop, even if he is doing the right thing?

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  60. If I had to do it over I would insist on a polygraph at some point.

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    1. LLP. That's a full on condition for me now. He knows it. Once i found out about the contact and then saw the texts I blurted it out in anger and he agreed to it. (we had spoken about it before). I have read quite a few good things from addicts about it, which makes me feel way less controlling. I think if you google "salon writer sex addict polygraph" you'll find the one that sparked my curiosity.

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  61. Hi Sisters

    I did something hard, the thing I have been afraid of for over a year. I told my H no contact ( more or less) until he decides he wants to cooperatively focus on building a second marriage and he completely breaks it off with the OW. Yes, he is still in contact with her. Steam I feel ya!!

    We can contact each other for 2 things. Emergency and to have a meaningful conversation about our relationship. I have been waiting/ wanting my H to "show up" for over a year and have been willing to turn myself inside out to make it easy for him, comfortable for him to do it. No more, He needs to make a choice to show up and get real or not and I will also take control of my own choices and respect. This has been heartbreaking hard and powerful at the same time.

    I recently start with a new IC and 2 concepts we talked about which were huge Ah Ha moments for me were. Differentiation and emotional fusion. Seriously, these concepts were a huge shift for me. They could be helpful for others as well, I suggest you look them up.

    Love and support sisters
    Becky

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  62. Becky, you kick so much ass. What a terrifying and brave choice. It so important to be clear about what you will and will not tolerate and also for him to realize that the only way forward is with the OW out of the picture, surgically removed. You've created the "crisis" necessary for him to get that if he's going to.
    I hear you on the making it too comfortable for him. I question what I am doing in the separation all the time. I love him and want him to come home, I don't want to be acting out of spite and anger, I want to support him having a healthy relationship with our kids, so in the midst of all this, how do I act from a place of "tough love" as well? Im still negotiating that path with myself.
    I was reading Melissa's post over on "we're not who we were" and really idenitified with the panic when not together (or during this separation when I don't have enough contact or any real idea where he is or what he is thinking). My panic ramped up all week, we had so little contact following the Monday coffee and I got really stuck in my head and down several dark rabbit holes. Eventually, after much struggle and a difficult night on Friday when my daughte rhad a panic attack and ended up sleeping in my room with me (she's 17 this is the result of knowing about her father's affair before I did, she still gets pTSD lke flashbacks and panic), I got this big urge to send him a text. Nothing major just a "hey, thinking about you." It was a powerful urge. Here's the thing, I like to leave myself open to divine guidance and inspiration. Whether you call that God, or the Source or the universe or your own inner guide, I think guidance and insight can come when you need it or when the time is right. (Read "Finding Peace when your heart is in Pieces" by Dr. Paul Coleman for more on this. He combines insight from many faiths and philosophies for a deeply spiritual (but not necessarily conventionally religious) path to healing and emotional acceptance and individual empowerment. His book "you him and the other woman" had some chapters on emotinal triangles and emotional acceptance that saved me in the early post dday era). So I had this strong urge to send a text. I don't normally do the reaching out, in an effort to create space for us both, to not pursue, etc. etc. I checked in with my sis, a gut check on my gut. Her advice was to do it if I felt it so strongly. And there is a difference in where I feel the urge in my body. If it is in th etop of my head, I know it is from panic. If it is literally in my gut, I need to consider if it is a message for me and a good reason to act. So I sent the message. Got a response almost right away asking how I was. I was glad to hear that he was around because I had not herd from him regarding weekend activities with the kids, which seemed weird. Sent my head to bad places. SO the response to my text helped me get a bit grounded in reality again. Nothing big happened right away, but slowly I came to realize that I had been struggling with trust all week, trying to control what is ot in my control. I needed to trust that he is on the right path for him and is doing the work he needs to do. I need to trust that the man I knew and believed in will find a way to do the right thing. I need to trust myself and what I know and that I am on the right path and doing the right work for a healthier me. I need to trust that God/the universe will help us both if we are open to it. And that I needed to work on letting go again instead of grasping.

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  63. Part two
    Interestingly, later close to bed time, I got a text from him asking if he could come over the next morning and cook breakfast. he had reached out to our daughter about meeting out but she had said she wanted to be in her PJs (she's crafty, that one). So I said yes. He came about ten. We cooked pancakes and bacon and I caramelized some bananas ( a new thing - he was a little impressed). I asked for a hug and got one. It was warm and he sort of gave me this look after and said "I'm sorry, I don't mean to be so cold." Wow. He's never said anything like this before in his life. We all sat at the table and laughed and had a lot of fun over the food. I caught him looking at me a couple of times. At the end as he was leaving, he thanked me for letting him come over. We talked about him possibly playing frisbee with the guys in the neighborhood later and the option of him coming for a lamb dinner. He said that would be really nice. So many positives, but I have worked really hard to school myself into not telling stories about it in the same way I tell scary stories when I don't know what is going on. He ended up not coming over, because none of the guys played frisbee. Totally fine actually. He split a lot of firewood at his place (therapy for him I think). But he also asked if we could do the breakfast thing again. That means here at the house and with me around. Another positive. I remind myself that we've got a long way to go. That I still don't even know if he's in touch with the OW or not. That all his behavior could fit in to more than one scenario, one which includes him getting to comfy with the idea of us being friends post divorce. But that it is OK for me to recognize a positive shift in his behavior and recognition of some of his own stuff.
    And this am I am still struggling, still a little panicked but trying to be nice to myself about it. Letting go, letting go. Deep breath. This won't be resolved quickly. I am going to walk in the rain. Did some yoga to loosen my hip. Will try and do some actual paid work. Thanks for listening ladies. much love!!! Insights and words of encouragement are always welcome! ;)

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    1. Ss it sounds like your h was waiting for the green light from you.. I'm glad you had some time together cooking breakfast it sounds like a positive step forward.. Sometimes we have to trust ourselves and our 'gut' as you call it. :) .. I really do believe that an act of kindness can go such a long way .. Am so pleased for you ss xxxx

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    2. I wonder. I think he still doesn't even know, himself. I think connecting over the kids is safe for him, allows him to feel a little like a good guy again. But he's still not giving me much. Marriage counseling today and that always leaves me wrung out. I'm so discouraged (see my two part thesis below) because he's still not at a place, if I'm honest with myself, where I'd like him to be. He's moving though. He's getting somewhere, I just don't know if, once he gets his pieces together again, that we will still fit. Ug. So much grief today and yesterday and for years going back forever.

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    3. and the other thing. I've been in this neighborhood before. Where the pendulum seems to be swinging my way. So it is entirely possible that he will have some feeling or something will happen and he'll get freaked out or the OW will pull some dumsel counter move and away he swings again. I didn't want to get sucked in again, but I did. I'm still hooked in to caring about what he thinks. I need to figure out how to let go of that. I remind myself that good things, baby steps, small rays of hope are only right now and can change any minute. I'm just weighed down with sadness.
      One thing I am wresting with today, lots of tears, the pain of betrayal. There is no female equivalent term for emasculation. And yet this is how I have felt. That my womanhood has been insulted, disrespected, its power taken away or erased or cut off. That i was spayed by his actions. Really brutal, gut wrenching pain came up. I've been letting it out all day. Going slow. Sitting with it. Feeling it. Crying it out. And there is still so much more. I think it why strength training, running, music and art have been so important in my healing. Reclaiming my body and my creative power.

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  64. OK, I looked them up and read a bit but what I was reading was very, almost convoluted. Could you please give me your understanding of this and why it was not her moment for you? I love to learn through others what they have learned in therapy. Thank you!

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    1. HI Mellissa

      So my IC loaned me the book Passionate Marriage by, David Schnarch and it has 2 chapters on differentiation and emotional fusion. I think this is more of professional book and I have not read the whole thing so I don’t know if I would recommend buying the book. But the 2 chapters I read were great!! Maybe you could get it at the library… Also, FYI the author does a lot of sex therapy so…. There is a lot of sex in the examples ect…, but the concepts apply much more broadly as well.

      Here is the basic of what I learned.
      Differentiation is your ability to maintain your sense of self when you are emotionally or physically close to others, especially someone important to you (and especially when in turmoil). Differentiation is the ability to balance 2 very basic contradictory life forces - - the drive for individuality and the drive for togetherness.
      Emotional fusion is the opposite of differentiation. It is connection without individuality. Emotional fusion deceives us into thinking we are not connected and so we move away in defense. But really we are trying to counterbalance too much connection. Connection without individuality. When we have little differentiation and too much emotional fusion we experience a reflected sense of self (not individuality) sort of “I don’t know who I am without you” type feelings. Your identity is validated through your partner (or some else, for example: children, parents, siblings) Differentiation allows each person to function independently and interdependently. Boundaries (& honoring them) is a very important 1st step in the differentiation process.

      These concepts seemed to explain why on one hand it felt like me and my H were so connected and had a deep love, but NEEDED to be apart. Also, why it felt like he was running away and he would say things like “I feel consumed by this relationship, I don’t know who I am, I am lost” (way too much emotional fusion and not differentiation) Why in difficult conversations, I would step in and try to rescue him from his distress, ease his struggle, even when I was boiling in pain (way too much emotional fusion and not differentiation) Also, why honoring boundaries was sooooo hard – I would set them, but give a pass when they were broken ( not enough differentiation). Also, why can’t he just dump the OW…… maybe he is emotionally fused with her too????

      According the book, couples that are emotionally fused are actually in a good place to break into differentiation and have a much healthier relationship. You just have to be willing to do the work. The good news about emotionally fused couples is that they often deeply care about each other.
      Does that make sense?? There is way too much info in the book to fully capture here. Sorry…
      Hope this helps
      Love
      Becky

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    2. Becky
      Thanks for this explanation of this! I also read several Google articles on the subject and it led to several aha moments in more than just the relationship with my h! I think we learn so much from each other! Hugs!

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    3. hi Sisters

      Thanks for the feedback and support. Lots of love
      Becky

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  65. Becky, HARD as it is it's the only way to go. I have searched and searched for info to prove that "theory" wrong. I thought maybe i was being a hard ass. but no--the only thing I have read which is an exception is if there is no feasible way to change a work situation and then its ONLY allowable to talk about work. How this is enforced I will never know. I thought maybe it was just my ego, either as inflated or damaged as it might be, but no-that info is everywhere. No contact means just that. Good for you!

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  66. You're doing a hard thing, but it sounds like you're doing the right thing. Love and hugs to you, sweetheart!

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  67. Anon, hugs and prayers going out to you. I'm so sorry you are going through this. It's a long road ahead, no matter what the outcome, so pace yourself; hold your baby close and do what is best for her and for you. H is is a fog right now; so be good to yourself. He is mixed up and screwed up; this is not, not, not your fault. Be kind to yourself, sleep well, eat well, cry when you need to, do things that make you feel better - and take one step at a time.
    Steam, good grief. No, no, no, no, no, contacting her one minute after waking and sharing thoughts and life details is just. So. Wrong. Thinking of you, and sending you hugs!!!
    SS, you express it so well, as usual. Being at a distance from him and his emotional roller coaster can really be a nice break. You can work on healing without the wound constantly being reopened. You ARE a super-hero. I am awed by your endurance.

    Sometimes I think recovery is a series of realizations. This weekend, my realization was that I still have a long way to go. I kept thinking if I just did this, avoided that, said this, or didn't say that, that I could move beyond painful outbursts and conversations. I realize now, there is no magical behavior or solution. We are simply still going through this. And it will go on for as long as it has to. This weekend, I found myself in yet another painful conversation, in which my ex and I both came away hurting. I cried and asked, where was the justice? Why do I have to deal with the pain that was dealt me, while she is held blameless? How can he STILL not get my bitterness? My worlds brought him to tears. He says he misses his best friend, and anything other than me will be second-best - but he will settle for second-best if he has to. Well, he has to. I miss my best friend too, I miss him like nobody's business. And I believe he genuinely misses me. But I don't believe the rest of his words. He is entirely too adept with them. He has said them before, to me and to her. I can't ever believe them again, and that is why it is over.
    But I do miss him. I miss my friend. I miss sharing thought and ideas, I miss physical touch, hugs and hand-holding and sex. This weekend I looked in the mirror a lot - had to keep doing make up for a play I was in - and I saw lines on a sad, tired face. I felt so much older - and alone. I have never been one to form many deep relationships. I am seriously doubting my ability to do so in the future.
    Sad and tired - but moving on. Many blessings! Much to live for!

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    1. Phoenix if having these conversations with your h makes you sad or doubt yourself maybe you should avoid them untill you feel stronger .. No doubt your going to question everything but know this you made the right decision for you and your girls at the time.. You don't have to worry about him coming back to you after being with her, where/who he is with you made the decision to leave him due to his wreck less behaviour and I salute you for that.. I reckon many women on this site wish they were strong enough to do what you have.. .

      I totally understand that you feel lonely and miss the companionship of being in a relationship just think about all the things you don't miss, write a list you'll be surprised..

      Phoenix I want you to look in that mirror and tell yourself over and over how beautiful you are.. ... You have shown us so much courage and strength on this site and yes you might be having a down day but I'm here to pick you up..

      Tomorrow is another day Phoenix!!! Thinking of you xxx

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  68. Hi friends, I'm all wrung out. MC this morning and although it was overall positive, he says these things that make it clear he's still not sure what he wants, is still ambivalent and of course it brings up fear in me. I at least acknowledged it, and the therapist did too. I'm proud of myself for speaking some of my truth today. It had been on my mind for awhile, but basically there was this version of our life together that had been talked about in mc and it was really, to my mind, his "justification for my affair" version of our life together. I felt like my experience had been erased. So I brought it up and how I felt that this version had been obscured. That when we had first met, it was right after I had been raped and my future h was there for me at a time when even my own mother let me down. This is something that I remember with a lot of warmth. It s special to me and I felt like it had been obscured by his narrative of how difficult our coming together was. The MC framed it up by saying that experience created a strong bond. My h agreed with this and that it was one of the things that created a strong foundation for us (I don't know if he used the word strong, but something like that). I was pleased to have him hear and accept my version. I also talked about the early dance we did, where one pursued for a while then the other, is not unusual or bad, that many couple do this and I would call that chemistry not tragedy. And that ultimately, when we came together that I had won something of value. And that our challenges, while real, were things we had weathered together. and that we were not some freakish statistical outliers but rather in the thick of normal with everyone else. Both he and the therapist agreed with that too and said it built that foundation he talked about. And he went on to say that this is why this process and our ability to work together for the good of the kids was at the good place it was, that we haven't been cruel or ugly to each other. He talked about not being angry and full of rage all the time and how he was working with his therapist on clearing a path, revisiting some of his timeline work and doing more EMDR for the next moth or so. This is all good. I put out there, (being really vulnerable here) that my wishes and feelings had not changed. That it is hard to not know where he was headed and it was probably too soon to ask about how he was feeling about us and I didn't expect and answer today, that I was trying to continue to give him the space he needed to figure this out. That I was happy he had his therapist as a guide and the opportunity to work through this and come out a whole, healthy person. I got a little tearful saying this. He acknowledged that and that I am one of the only people who truly wants that for him with no strings, that I want him to be happy and healthy no matter what, even if that means we don't end up together (I'm crying as I write this) because he said there are certainly people who want him to be OK , but he knows that OK for them is what they want for him (to stay married etc etc). Anyway, I got a little tearful in session because it is scary, because I am afraid he won't come back, but I needed him to know he's free to do what he needs. I so hate this. I hate the uncertainty. I hate that I went in there, after the little shifts and positives of this week, hoping for something more. But I showed up. I was real and vulnerable and guess what? I didn't die and now he knows where I stand, still. And he's got some stuff to think about and digest and process. I feel like I don't know anything. I just want him to come home. I just want a nap.

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  69. Part 2
    My reiki session after was epic, no surprise. I don't have the energy left to write, but lets just say that piles of the hurt and scared came out. I am wrung out.
    And I know that he still isn't. hasn't asked for divorce, still wants time to work and think. Maybe is rising out of the fog by admitting he's not walking around angry all the time. And maybe I just don't know. I have decided I am still OK with the uncertainty. I have to dare to hope that although that talk about our past and foundation could fit neatly in to a story in his head where we end up divorced but friends who would take a bullet for each other, it can also be the beginning of him realizing we have an amazing relationship and a reason to fight through this to a better place together as a couple. May God have mercy on my soul.

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    1. SS I just hope for his sake once he does get his head out of his ass you will still want to be married to him... I reckon the minute he turns round to you and says yes you are what he wants you will run for the hills : )There's something about the fact that when our h reject us we want them more., however you soon come to realise that what you wanted isn't them at all.. Well that's my story anyhow.. I think your being extremely patient with him maybe too patient but only you will know when enough is enough... I love following your life story ss, I think your amazing!!! Lots of love xx

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  70. Sam, thank you so much! You did pick me - brought a big ol' smile to my face!
    I certainly don't have trouble thinking of reasons why I'm glad things are the way they are. All I have to do is remember the hell they put me through. Life is a trade-off - and this is the choice I could live with.
    Love you, Sam!!!

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  71. A divorce is not a quick, clean cut. It is like a slow tearing. Very slow. Little by little, piece by piece, your life is torn away from the life of your ex. At first it almost felt like "playing pretend" - look, here I am, I'm single, I'm paying all the bills by myself, I'm taking over his closets, I'm sleeping on the other side of the bed, I'm arranging visitation with the kids. Then slowly, it becomes more real. This is my life. I'm divorced. He and I are slowly growing farther apart. Every milestone puts more distance between us, and between the present and the past. The first time my car breaks down and I don't call him. The first play I do that he doesn't come to see. The first time I hang curtains by myself, or make the decision to pull out the carpets without consulting him. The first child's birthday, split between us. Coming up: the first Halloween, the first,Thanksgiving, the first Christmas. Each event will drive another wedge.
    I am grateful that we were able to push the divorce through in less than 4 months, because once I had made the decision, I didn't want to linger in hellish limbo. But I realize that, no matter how quickly the divorce goes through, the separating of two lives, joined for over 20 years, is a grueling, drawn-out process. As if our marriage were a piece of paper that someone was veeeery slowly tearing in two. Is it any wonder we both are struggling? It is a necessary tearing - on his side of the paper I can still see lies, doubts, jealousy, fear, and turmoil - oh yeah, and her. So I need the tearing. But it is still slow and painful. It is still a step-by-step process.
    I know a lot of people are not where I am, but this feels like a good place to express it. And you can see what it is like from this point in the journey, if you turn left instead of right. Thank you, Elle, for creating this page for us.

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    1. Phoenix I'm not far behind you!!! 6 months living apart now and I'm doing pretty good like you i am covering different milestones along the way on my own as s single mother and once you've reached one the next isnt so bad... I don't see myself with my h in the future I have slipped further and further away to a point I know we ain't getting it back or at least I don't want it back.. He's flipping delusional living in cloud cuckoo land hoping I will change my mind but I'm not giving him any signals to say that I will..

      Guys just to update she the ow did ring the police the day after I posted the incident.. I have been down to give a police interview today and the police have taken a 'no further action' which I am so relieved about I can't tell you however I found the female officer so understanding to my situation, they knew from the of this ow didn't have a leg to stand on and frankly it didn't appear that she cared about her sob story.. She was very sympathetic to me and my situation.., which I was grateful for.. I know adulrery isn't a crime but it bloody well should be .. I am the victim and her and my h are the offenders.. Anyhow I will sleep tonight and that's another slap in her face the silly bitch what did she want?? I so want to put this shit to bed and move on... Raise a glass tonight for all the betrayed women here and the strength we share.. I love you all xxxxx

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  72. I am actually on my second cocktail, so yes, I will raise a glass! To all of us, to our strength, and to you, Sam. Towanda!!
    Hell yes, you are the victim. They are the abusers, the selfish perpetrators of emotional torture. But you're going to move on, put your life back together, and leave them with their empty, unhappy little lives.
    We are the victims, but we won't remain victims.
    I'm glad there were no serious repercussions for you. Sometimes the good guys get to win one. Hugs and kisses, sweet friend!

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  73. Hello ladies, thank you all for sharing - my husband and I are going through something again. Or should I say something still LOL.. I don't know who is crazier… me or him! My women's intuition was speaking to me and I felt the need to speak witj him. I spoke of what was bothering me and he expressed that he wasn't happy and before you know it we are again speaking of separation/divorce. And every time we do that, it seems we get closer together, yet we also experience a lot of stress and pain. I will say though, we are both handling it much better this time. Whatever "it" is… I know people would say, "what do you want Melissa?" I'm so confused… I don't know. Allow me to think out loud… I want a husband who is committed, loving and faithful ... And truly sees my value ... to be continued

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  74. Is my husband all those things right now? No, I would have to say that he is not. I spoke to my friend last night who is a former 0W. I told her of what is going on and the fact that the OW reached out to my husband about a month ago. She was so angry at the OW for reaching out after all this time. Like she said, this just stirs things up with him and makes it more difficult for him to heal. It is so very strange… nonetheless, I wonder if a separation, even a divorce, would be our best option right now. As I told him, I cannot help him figure out why he is unhappy, only he can figure that out and from my perspective, the best way for him to do that is through therapy ( which he expressed again he is not interested in doing) - or time and removal from the situation, with self-reflection… I asked him, what could I do in my next relationship to be a better partner? And he replied, "nothing, it's not you, it's me." He wants to be his happy-go-lucky self again.
    (Can you say midlife crisis? Sorry, that was not very loving.)
    And me? I'm tired of him not knowing what the hell he wants ... And, this may seem superficial, lately I've been longing for romance, falling in love… and other things that seem inviting to be on my own. (Believe me, I'm scared to death too.) So yesterday we spoke of, and decided upon, roughly how we would split our assets ... And tonight we're going to get pedicures together and tomorrow we're going out together for an event ... As our marriage therapist had told us about a year ago we are more compatible than most of the couples she sees. I see my therapist on Monday. This will be the topic of discussion. Oh, and we are still sleeping together, cuddling, hugs and kisses… No sex ( part of the issue, as he doesn't want to) ... Does the cuddling and all help us or hurt us? Through this uncertain time? Another topic of discussion. Again, thanks for listening ladies and even more so thanks for sharing your stories. You don't know how much it helps me to simply read what you are going through… No matter what stage you are in. And given my current situation, reading your posts, Phoenix, is especially enlightning.
    Love and light ladies

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    1. Melissa, it sounds like the lack of sex may be creating an intimacy gap for you both. I've read (somewhere? Online maybe?) That some men shut down sex after cheating because they have too much shame. It's hard to feel sexy and vulnerable in that context. Have you read " Sex Made Simple"? Good, simple read that was a real eye opener for me on the dysfunction in my marriage. Also very actionable. Maybe your h would be open to reading it with you? Despite saying he does not want to, no one really wants to be in a sexless marriage. So he's afraid of something. Or he doesn't feel safe for some reason. The book may help you guys get from cuddling (which I think is absolutely a good thing) to something deeper ( no pun intended). It's a tough time. All marriages go through ups and downs. I'm glad you are talking through things. Hang in.

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  75. Damn, I just cried in the bathroom at work. I really thought I was past that stage. At least I wasn't curled up in a ball on the floor.

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    1. Phoenix, thank you for your honesty. Tears are made to be released. I'm listening to an Irish singer-songwriter (Damien Dempsey) these days and I often cry to his lyrics. I don't know your taste in music, but maybe you could check out 'Negative Vibes' or 'Almighty Love'. He puts his heart and soul into his songs. Apologies if this is not appropriate. I find this music helps me go with the swell of my emotions and go beyond them.

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  76. I'm sorry Phoenix ... I also recognize that tears are a good thing. A study once indicated that when analyzing tears you actually will find toxic substances. So when they say you had a good cry… It's true. I'm with you Dear ... Sometimes you have to think just how wonderful you are. (Despite, and because of, all this crap that is being flung at you - which you don't deserve.) Today I did a guided meditation which talked about our wholeness and how we touch the world. It was beautiful and made me cry. This affair and aftermath experience can make one more compassionate, or more better. It is obvious, Phoenix, you are compassionate. The world is blessed with your Light. Shine on Dear ... And cry when you want to.

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  77. Your posts are so real. Thank you all. I think it's the only place where I can read people who are telling the truth about our feelings and reactions when someone we loved or still love is causing us confusion and so much pain. We have our own dignity. A loving heart can be hurt, but at least it is still alive.
    My h is planning to move out next week. I hope it will be temporary- until he figures things out. He is starting to realise the real world fallout his (selfish) actions could lead to. He wants to put off telling his parents about (a) our separation and (b) the readon for it. I wonder if he cares more about their feelings than mine! This evening he had a flash of insight (first in months) when he realised that it would not be fair to me to deprive me of my daughter (by having her to stay with him). So strange that he put it that way, rather than depriving a baby of her mother... I hope this is a real dawning of consciousness and not just a way to wriggle out of childcare responsibilities. Too weary to feel strong emotions at this stage. Just fed up. Maybe this separation will allow me some downtime from the crisis he has brought about. I hope so.

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  78. Anon, your right the separation will give you some time away from the crisis, hopefully it will relieve you from some of the pain your experiencing right now, the saying 'out of sight out of mind is somewhat true, I find the day I asked my h to leave 6 months ago was the day my healing began.

    Anon regarding the childcare, I would say you make the decisions where your baby goes and who with.. I mean where does he get of thinking he's doing you a favour for letting the baby stay with you!!! Anon I understand how your feeling, a new baby, and a cheating husband is almost too much to bear and all you have to do my dear is take each day as it comes, spending each hour of the day as you please, whether it's staying in your pj's all day, going out for a walk or meeting a friend for lunch. keep doing what your doing your getting stronger although you won't feel like you are.. You will come out on top anon, you have your daughter, the most precious gift God can give.

    Take good care of you and your little girl anon.. We're here with you every step of the way xxxxx

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    1. Thank you, Sam A. Next week will be a real test I think. Yes, I am so happy with my daughter. I really hope she will not be too upset by her dad's absence... she says our names now and calls for the one who isn't there. Whatever happens, I will do all I can to keep her safe and happy.

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  79. I thought separation was supposed to take some of the pain away, make the reality of his betrayal less in my face, give me space to heal and get on with my life. Why am I hurting so much today? Is it just that weekends are hard because I have no idea what he is doing? And when he doesn't reach out to the kids to get together I start to fret about what he is doing with his time, how he's filling it. And it us his bday tomorrow. We are all supposed to be getting together for dinner but he's given me no details. Why the radio silence? And despite texting me a pic of the sunset on weds I have heard nothing since. Except from a well meaning neighbor who had lunch with him and shared that my h was still very much involved, in communication with his ap. But that he may have said some less than positive things about her? It's unclear. The neighbor was drunk and spilling out of guilt. So info a bit garbled. The neighbor did say maybe you should try bring single so you can figure this out. He said yea maybe. And now I'm obsessing, ruminating, fretting. Going down the rabbit hole of " what if she flew up for his bday?". I just need to stop. I probably need to minimize my contact to preserve my sanity. I can't go NC because of the kids. I'm just so lost. I need to find myself again. Does it always hurt this much? Can I have one pain free day, please God?

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  80. Yes, Anon, the separation will almost certainly help you to rest and regroup. I felt a great lightening of the burden when my ex moved out - for the first time in months I could wake up in the morning and think of something other than trying to get a look at his phone. I am not advocating divorce, but when you've been wearing yourself out physically and emotionally, with tears and anger and hypervigilance, separation can be a real respite. Mine also didn't want to deal with the real-world fall out; he postponed telling his mom until two weeks before the divorce was final! Some of his relatives still don't know! My hope for you is that, with time and space, you can gain some needed perspective. And so can he.
    And yes, we are real people with dignity. The OWs want to forget that. They want to pretend that our feelings and our pain don't exist or don't matter. That always hacks me off.
    And Anon, Music is one of the greatest loves of my life. Music therapy has totally kept me sane over little last year. I have an entire repertoire of songs that help me release and deal with my feelings. This last week it has been: "Cry Me a River" and "Never Gonna Get It"! Thank you for the recommendation; I will check out Dempsey!
    Melissa, thank you for for your beautiful words. And I will remember, when I cry, that I am crying out toxic substances! Physical ones, and also emotional ones like bitterness, anger, fear, loneliness, and grief. Crying them right out of my system!
    I hope you're able to move on in the right direction soon. It is difficult to be caught between the past and the future. And not to know what future you are working toward. It is particularly bewildering and painful to deal with a husband who does not know what he wants. Especially when the two of you have been-and in many ways still are- so close. It seems like depression is keeping him in a fog. And there is only so long you can live with that, and still maintain your own emotional health. I think you are absolutely right, I think he needs to figure out what is making him so unhappy before he can commit to working on things with you. I hope he moves in a positive direction soon. He is where my ex was nine months ago, and, let me tell you, that man definitely wishes he could go back in time.

    Friends, when I was struggling in nightmarish limbo, trying to save my marriage, the thing I prayed for the most was: Truth. I asked God to show me the truth, so that I could make the best decisions. And He did, repeatedly. And that is the truth I cling to when I mourn the past or question my decisions. I pray the same for you: that you will be given the truth, that you will see things as clearly as possible, so that you can make a good and right decision for yourself and, if applicable, for your children. The path I chose is a hard one too, and it meanders through many hard and lonely places. So I pray for you: wisdom, discernment, and truth. God bless, and lots of hugs!!!

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    1. Yes Phoenix, truth is what we need and deserve. And definitely wisdom and discernment to help figure out what to do or indeed whether to do anything. My h is planning to tell his parents (some of) the truth this weekend. I feel like I'm in the eye of the storm. Your words and thoughts really help.

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  81. Food poisoning over here. I've had ginger ale, chicken broth and dry toast since Friday. Throw in that Sunday was my h's bday and I've been a defeated, hypervigilant mess. When it was her bday he flew down to see her, on the company dime, back in June. Thus is what made me agree to the separation, saying I think you need to move out. So what was to stop them from getting together for his bday? Except it could not be expensed thus time but maybe she's desperate enough to foot the bill , maybe he paid. See this is the triggered obsessing I did all weekend. Imagined the stop sign, pinched myself, read books. Being sick I haven't had access to my favorite coping strategies of walking and running.
    I'm tired of hurting and know that if I choose to change something that I will still have pain to deal with. I also know that even though I am uncomfortable, I don't need to panic myself into a decision. I need to remind myself that I committed to living with uncertainty for a little while longer. That his conflictedness, confusion and selfish behavior is part of the territory, part of an addicted mind.
    I want to hang in for a little while longer. I'm afraid I'm being played, but to what purpose, I don't know. So encouragement, please, if you can. Remind me that I won't always feel this way. Share with me how you have gotten through your darkest days. I'm trying to be compassionate with myself, accepting that I'm sick and low instead of thinking that I should be doing better. I pray for truth and wisdom and guidance and I meditate on making peace with my fear and grief. And I sip ginger ale and I reach out to you, my friends. I've reached out to my sis and had a chat with her but she has a real job so I can't big her down too much. I reached out to the mc and she will sometimes call to help me stabilize but sometimes not because she is rightfully cautious about appearing to have an alliance with me against my h. He needs to feel safe in mc if we are to get anywhere. Please just pray for me or send me a hug or burn an offering in my honor, dance under the moon, invoke whatever powers you have to spare for me. Much love.

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    1. Ss You don't deserve this pain.. Your one of the most compassionate women on this site and always there to offer your support.. We're here for you ss we are with you on this turbulent journey.. I pray you get to a place of calm so you can just rest, take some deep breaths and recharge.. Like Elle always says the only way we get to the other side is through it and your living every moment, every feeling and emotion possible you have felt it ss.. I truly believe you will come through the other side stronger ss you really are amazing in all you do for your children and your h.. You also know how to take care of yourself which is vital in healing.. I'm so so proud of how far you have come ss, stay positive and positive things will happen.. Big big hugs to you today!! Stay strong my friend.. Lots of love xxxx

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    2. Still standing
      Nothing can bring you down faster than food poisoning! I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this on top of the other clutter in your life. I'm praying for you and for all of us who are still struggling day to day with our new reality. I'm sending you hugs of support and just place your shoulder against mine in your imagination and lean in for the support you need to get to a more level ground! I'm holding you up and hopefully helping you relax some of the tension you feel!

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    3. I find it hard to deal with additional stress, illness or anything other than basic day to day items still. I am not as resilient when things come up sporadically. And not having the coping mechanism of working out makes it a million times worse.

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    4. Still Standing, you are unique and strong. Somebody told me recently that we (people who think and feel) tend to struggle with uncertainty and confusion, because we put pressure on ourselves to 'know' what to do or how to feel. It's not so easy. And maybe it is not yet the right time. We have to accept this phase of confusion, trusting that a small certainty will begin to grow in our hearts and minds. One day, we will feel sure. Until then, we need to be kind and very very patient with ourselves. We shouldn't blame our minds for going around in circles- they're doing their best to protect us, but they're kust not the right tools for the job. We need patience, wisdom and love. Clarity will come. I really found this idea helpful. I hope it will add to your repertoire of coping/thriving strategies. (I also like running and know how frustrating it is not to be able to go out - I hope you get back on track soon!)

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  82. Oh, SS. You are wisely saying all the right things to yourself, but it doesn't help sonetimes , does it? The pain, the obsessive worry - it's a sickness itself. And like you say, you have to wait it out. I spent hours listening to a new musical. Burying myself in it. I slept a lot. I watched a lot of tv. I read. Anything to turn my brain off...!
    SS, your writing resonates. You have such a fine, beautiful, creative mind and spirit. It breaks my heart that you are going through this again, still. I admire and respect you for your strength of will, your loving spirit. I am praying for you with all my heart. May you have twice as much joy as you now have sorrow! I am so angry on your behalf. Why must these men be so selfish, bring such pain to the ones they should cherish?
    If he's lucky, you will still be there for him when he pulls his head out of his butt. But he doesn't deserve you.
    Sorry, love, if I sound harsh. Just know that I am thinking of you, praying for you. Hurting for you. Sending you hugs!!!

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  83. Still standing, yes, you recognize that you are sick and of course all of your emotions are going to be heightened. Is the length of the separation an agreed-upon time? A certain number of weeks or months? What I can offer that I have gone through and that which has helped me… take whatever amount of control you can. And by this I certainly do not mean controlling him, as we all know, you can only control yourself, your actions, and your reactions. I felt very out of control during our separation and I believe you do as well. If there has not been a set time frame for the separation, set one, and share that with your husband. As hard as it may be, make a list of everything that would be better without your husband. I don't care if something on the list is small, such as I would have more space on the bookshelf… If it would bring you some joy, put it on the list. Make a list of how you will proceed… Given a reconciliation… And/or given a divorce. In either case make it a powerful list. You are a powerful woman. No, you cannot control him, yes, you can control yourself and how you move forward. If you have not already, see a divorce attorney. And when you go, take a friend, a friend who is a good listener, secretary like and will take notes for you. I actually cried when someone suggested that here on this website when I was in my separation. Yet, I took their advice and as difficult as it was, there was a sense of power, a sense of control ,.. a sense of Self. When my husband and I got back together he was absolutely shocked that I had seen a divorce attorney. I did not tell him until he moved back home. I did not do it to win him back. I did it for my own sanity and protection. Finally, in the morning after you meditate or jog or whatever your routine is, I want you to set your intention for the day. What is your intention? For just this one day? What will move you forward, closer to peace and Self. And I do believe, as much pain as we are in, sometimes if that intention involves bringing loving kindness and compassion to another human being… We will be filled. Even something so small, like calling a friend who is going through a hard time and cheering them up, are telling the checkout girl at the grocery store how beautiful her eyes are. Let your light shine. You are Still Standing. And you are moving forward - in whatever direction you choose. You have choices, you have power, you have intention. I believe in you. More importantly, I know, you believe in you. Peace, light, love and strength = You = I.
    I am. I am safe. I am strong. I am good.
    I am loved. I am love. I am.

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    1. Melissa quick answer on your q, we agreed on a six month separation at the end of which we assess where we are and what comes next. Does he want to move home? Am I ready for that? Does he need more time? Am I will to extend that to him or am I ready to be done? I won't know until I get there. I'm trying hard to stay just in today.
      We are approaching the end of month two and as the mc reminded me, very early on for the time, space and therapy to have done its work. He has been in IC since D-day back in Jan. It stuns me that we've been at this, thrashing this out for nine months. And that he's been back in touch with her for most of that time. I remind myself that this is why we are separated. And that I need to take a step back again to protect myself from his roller coaster, pendulum, flip flop, guilt and shame mosh pit. I was, in truth, trying to DO something, trying too hard to get him to engage, trying to fix things. And there is nothing for me to do right now. It's his fucking shitshow.
      I read recently, a metaphor that is helping me to recenter. Basically it draws a parallel between us and our crazy effed up spouses and the book the horse whisperer. Basically my h is the horse, damage, afraid, all fucked up (even if he did the damage himself). And I am the horse whisperer. The freaked out horse runs away and stands in the pasture. The horse whisperer stands still in the field for hours and hours and hours. Does nothing but stand still. Eventually the horse approaches. Come within a few feet and stops. Horse whisperer still stands and does nothing. The horse finally closed the last gap and nuzzles his had. Now they can finally work on things. This reminds me that the only thing I can do right now is stand still.
      I've also made a commitment to myself that I will do my best not to think about him, this, us. But instead use those same techniques I would for dealing with flashbacks and mind movies. Obsessing only hurts me and solves nothing.

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    2. Melissa!! This post and advice is so amazing and shows your wisdom and courage and generosity to share with the rest of us. Thank you!! My love and support are with you as well. Onward Warrior!!!
      Becky

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  84. There has to be a breaking point, people. A limit in time and patience and heartbreak. You set yours. It is up to you.
    These men think this is all about them, their feelings and their choices, their happiness . They have forgotten what love really is.
    My ex is NOT a bad person. He cares genuinely and deeply about me and the kids. He has many generous and good qualities.
    What he is, is a person to whom I can no longer trust my heart.
    Found a quote the other day that really described part of my turning point: "I got out after I asked myself....would I want my child to be in a relationship like this?"
    Everyone has their own timeline, and nothing this important should be rushed and impulsive. But, that being said… value yourself. Take care of yourself. Know your own worth, and be ready to make hard choices to protect yourself when you decide that the emotional abuse has gone too far.
    Peace and Love, sister warriors.

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    1. This is so true. Thank you.

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    2. Thank you everyone. Thank you so very much. I love each and every one of you. I feel so blessed to have this place and have all of you.
      The sun came out today. I ate a little food. Meditated for a reeeeaaaalllly long time. Got a call from the MC and she talked me back from the edge of the cliff. I can still see it from here, but I'm not in danger of falling off today. Went shopping and bought each of my kids a present. Went for a gentle walk, I'm still recovering. Saw some of my turtle and bird friends. Then I got your messages. So grateful. So blessed. So loved.
      I remember going to church as a little girl and lighting one of the many candles held in red glass, as an offering. I remember the peace, the soft stillness of the moment when the wick caught from one of the little sticks that were kept in a jar of sand to the side. I feel the flame lit in me from each one of you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

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    3. SS, I have not been where you are but admire your strength. Your agony jumps out of your words and makes me put my hand on my heart. I learned my happiness has very little to do with my H, kids, stuff or friends. It has more to do me. Just some suggestions that help me. I got rid of clutter in home, car, closet or friends who bring me down. No bad juju in my day. I did somethings I don't usually do to build up my confidence like I learned how to belly dancing (it is a flirty dance incase I needed it in the future) , took a golf lesson (in case I need to socialize in the future) and learned to play bridge again. I gave up learning new things which I like without realizing it. My life after his affair is already here. I'm already living it, so I found ways to move forward. There was no reason to let his mistake ruin my life. It is not like a light switch I can easily turn on or off but for me being totally selfish was a great start. I actually planned my next steps or future life without him. Many good thoughts coming your way today. Pick out one bad juju thing, toss it out. Just kick butt today, I can tell from all your posts you can do this.

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  85. Oh, lost a post again.
    Thank you Becky!!! Thank you so much!!

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  86. Thank you SS - happy I found your reply - I'll look at those resources. Yes, our marriage therapist from last year thought it was guilt/shame - my current IC feels it is psychological as well. There are many marriages I know of that are sexless - yet I don't want to be one of them.

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  87. You are doing it Dear - good for you. I sometimes wish my husband and I would have been separated that long for us both to get into a better place. Honestly, that could happen now, not then - it was only ten weeks after dday when we separated - I was simply too fragile, as was he actually. Now I am much more equipped to handle it - yet not pushing for it (nor the big D) either. I am learning through all this to feel stable with myself - still learning mind you. And Becky, I found a great article on emotional fusion ... It actually helped to lead me into that place of safety and security, all alone. This will be a huge accomplishment for me. I told my friend today, I am 55 years old now, it will take me until I'm about 95 to get to that place. :-).
    Hugs and love to all.

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  88. An update in two stories. So I think (?) I've landed in a safer place. By realizing that I needed to keep myself safe from my H's flailing. That I have had too much interaction with him and every time I did, I told myself fairy stories about anything positive, but my intuition sent my anxiety through the roof because of the mixed messages. The bottom line, he's still involved with the OW. I knew this. Its why we are separated. But. I had tried to build a cushion of safety and hope by grasping at straws, by thinking maybe that gap in his story is about them trying to end it. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Until I thought maybe he'd be ready to try and fix things. But it was all made up BS, made up by me and I set myself up for hurt. I needed to get my head back to reality. This means I need distance. I needed to take several steps back. Frankly, to be less graspingly hopeful. I can wait. I can take care of myself. I can interrupt my obsessing. I get up each day now and ask myself, what can I do today to make my day better? What can I do for myself? What do I want to do? And I am seriously trying to let go of outcome ( I know I will have more ups and downs with this). I feel less "sure" that things will work out between us. In fact feel more convinced over time that we will not make it. That I will be fine. Sure. Yes. I'm resilient and all that shit. But less hopeful about his ability to become a whole person. That's OK. I am also trying to be wise about not telling myself catastrophic stories either. Just as harmful in their own way as the fairy tales. Just trying to stand still, horse whisperer style.
    I saw a skunk at the side of the road yesterday. The skunk tells us about defenses. You can defend yourself, calmly, with assurance, quietly, by standing your ground, by knowing the power you have and without being aggressive or starting a fight. That's the real skunky lesson. Its not about the stink. Its about being wise enough to know when to use it and when not to (a skunk takes about four days to refill those stink bombs, so use it wisely). So the skunk was confirming my decision to focus on stepping back and standing my ground. Not being aggressive or angry. Just standing in the middle of my quiet, smelly perimeter. There's no doubt about where the skunks boundaries are. You can smell them!

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  89. Part two: Thanksgiving Shitstorm.
    I don't have piles of energy to write about this. But Thanksgiving came up this week. Why? because my MIL got the usual invite from the extended family we see in the next state. An annual transition. She asks me about what she should do. I say. I am not ready to make a decision. It is too far in the future, I don't know how I or the kids will be feeling. So just accept and we may need to revise that closer to the time. She tried to talk more and I said, I'm really not ready to talk about this right now. Too stressful.
    Apparently, she confronted my h separately about it. Gave him a raft of shit about ruining traditions etc. etc. So he calls me to tell me and talk about it. Typical of him to try and offload his angst to me. First. Second he had made the assumption I wasn't going and was all prepared to email all the relatives so they can "adjust" to the idea. Literally. W. T. F. Backstory: my daighter had a while ago asked me not to go because awkward, was right at the beginning of separation etc. I said, let's not make a decision now. Let's talk closer to the time, and if you still don't want me to go I wont. Later she reversed that and said she thought it would be ok if I went after all. Since we were not figting all the time. I again said, thanks for sharing. Let's decide closer to the time. So long story short, I had conveyed the gist of the convo to my h. Somehow, he forgot details (sound familiar anyone?) and had told himself I wasn't going to thanksgiving and was going to see my family across the state. I was like um, no. Don't you remember XYZ? No. Ok well, I'm not ready to make any decisions right now. To far in the future. And I am trying to stay very much in the day to day. Never said I was going to my side of the state etc. etc. Epic insensitivity, both to me (given the timing - the affair went full monty the week after thanksgiving and I know it and he knows I know it. Talk about fog.) and failing to take into consideration how the kids might be feeling or that feelings change. And how is he suddenly so cool with telling everyone about the separation? When did that happen? Just fuck him. This only confirmed to me that while he is crazy, I need to have very little to do with him.
    Then my MIL tackles me on the subject AGAIN this morning all salty because she thought I had changed my mind without telling her. I was like no. He's an idiot. Just remember if you want reality, check with me. And also, what I said stands, not ready to decide, don't really want to belabor it. Done.
    Hey guess who has two thumbs and some boundaries now? This girl.
    As an aside, since I have backed the fuck up, he has been texting every day (about some business thing or kids but trying to be all chipper and upbeat). Last week I would have been "yay, maybe he's starting to wake up or maybe he's moving back toward me". This week, I'm thinking, "yea, more of the same bs. As son as he senses me backing up, he's trying his old counter moves so I keep acting nice nice like he's used to." I'm not being mean or cold, bt I'm also not going to do anything other than respond. Stand my ground, protect my space. I don't want to end up hating this guy. No matter what we've got kids together and their well being comes first.
    Final note: I had a dream last night that there was a person being operated on (no blood, not gory) but that body parts, arms and legs, were slowly being replaced with mechanical prosthetics, until basically he was a robot with a human head. Then I realized it was my H. Yikes. Metaphor much? even though the dream was about him, all our dreams are really about ourselves. Am I going through my days mechanically right now? Maybe. Do I feel like he is false, not the real human I thought I knew? Probably. Do I want to be married to an emotionless robot? Um, no. Lots of juju in that dream.
    Peace and love BWC sisters.

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    1. SS,
      Two thumbs and some boundaries?? Awesome! What we always have to remember is that when we start setting clear boundaries, we are going to get countermoves. It's uncomfortable for others who are accustomed to us giving in. The rules have changed and they don't like it. So you'll get badgering and you'll get anger and you'll get all the shit you're getting. But you are doing exactly what you should be doing. Broken record. Just keep saying it, short and sweet. "I can't decide at this point. Will let you know." And then try (!!!!) and ignore the drama. The other thing you're already seeing is the clarity you're getting about the situation, totally apart from you. You begin to see the crazy more clearly because you're no longer in the midst of it. you're a spectator.

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    2. SS why is it that the approaching holidays make everyone go bonkers? For years I was controlled by at CRAZY MIL's whims. She would make plans, get upset when not everyone on the planet would cater to her, cancel the plans so we would cancel our trips, airline tickets, pet sitters etc,and then two days later, she would ask what we were bringing. It was her crazy self serving use of semantics. One year she said she DID not cancel, she said "well if no one is interested Im just cancelling the whoel damn thing, happy holidays, ba h humbug" To me, that sort of sounded ike she was calling it off. everyone was relieved and quickly made other plans, only to be LAMBASTED later when se did confirm we would not be coming. It is a JOY to be off that line of communication. A joy to be out of that crazy loop. She has been posivily cut out of my life and I think she treats me as dead in her mind. After how nasty nasty and intrusive she was the very first week or H and i's seperationwhich was pretty unforgivable, I have no desire to reconsile with her and I dont know if she will voice an opinion on things if H and I do get back together which is the plan in January adn possibly a few days in NOvember. A november which will not include me spending at time with her or his family at thanksgiving. I have no idea if he will go either I have been on vacation by myself for a week now. I have done next to nothing. I realize now just how drained I have been. At home there is no time to sit and really figure out what it is that I want. nor time to catch up on what this "sex addiction" really is. and it's frightening now that I know. It's not just him getting over an affair, it's a lifetime of being on guard against unhealty behaviours. a life time But thats not really my problem. my problem is the fear of being hit by the shrapnel of a relapse,w ich is HIGHLY likely. Studies--professional studies say relapse rates are high. My shrink saaays the same, but she stresses that we can come out on the other if he does the work. We are not in MC anymore--just that one session which was supposed to be a disclouser and went terribly wrong. I am finding nothing but bad news online when I look at partners of sex addicts. I can find few happy endings (no pun intended) I will have about 5 days with my ex, who joins me on vacation in a few days, for five days. this might give me some clarity, some hope or some way to see if shes serious. He tells me without a doubt he is committed to this sexul sobrierty thing. Hes explained the red flags that proceed his episodes and the whorrible spiral he gets into once he blows through all the signs Here is where it gets crazy making to me, all i can find is that people with this addiction or compulsion were denied even HAVING feelings as kids. Abuseis rampant in them. So now he is open and yet highly sensitive to most everything. I know he sent his good by text to his leftover AP. He knows he has to tell me if she writes back. Instead of telling me if she did or did not, I have to ask daily (i dont but to feel ok I would) They guy just cnannot seem to get a word out without thinking I ma going to leave him , throw him out again or simply get angry. He cannot deal with the anger or anything less than "positive" right now. I have a feeling his horrible 12 step sponser has given him this advice."be Positive" well ya know, not eveyrhing is going to be "positve" right now. Im not sure what I am trying to say except, my feelings and actions cannot be dictated by his "recovery" anymore than they can be controlled by his mother. PLease excuse my typos. My keyboard is not always connectning to the computer and the spell check and mouse are not working--ha! makes for some funny sentances I fear.

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    3. Still Standing, Great update and so glad you are in the place you are. Thank you for sharing. What struck me is it is very familiar to the advice my husband gave me especially for dealing with my kids when they were young. (My husband is in the mental health field). He would say to me take the emotion out of it and be matter of fact with them. Say it once and let it be. And this worked so well with my kids. Well now I am seeing where this works well through this process. I find it best when I bring something up to say it direct and matter of fact. The more emotional I am the more it distracts from our discussion and outcome. And I am not saying to have no feelings ever. But for something ongoing like this and now that we are past the initial phase it really helps me. I do have to remind myself of this though since I slid back into it easily. I feel like the way you are dealing with everything seems very much like that and it seems to be working well for you.

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    4. Hi SS

      I think we are at a similar stage, my H and I are also completed about 2 months of separation and he is also still in contact with OW and I have often been still up and down with interpretation of "signs" and where is he... what is he doing .... ect. It has been so hard and painful as we both know!

      About 2 weeks ago though you all know I told him no contact! (Except emergency or serious talk about us) until he completely breaks off with OW and can think more clearly if he wants to build a 2nd marriage with me. It was so hard and scary to say this to him and there have been some countermoves and it has been hard and I'm still working to set the boundary as firm as I want/need it, but ..... this was a huge step for me.

      I have really started to face my worst worst fear, which has been that my marriage won't recover. I am facing that now with more courage and self respect and self love than I have ever before. I know no matter what I'll be ok.

      You too SS will be ok, no matter if your H gets it together or not. You will survive and thrive!! I think I know and share some of your fears and pain and I also know that setting a "its her or me" boundary was so hard for me, but the best thing for me!! My MC had said for a long time that my H has been working consciously or unconsciously for a way to keep both me and the OW in his life. ( he is not physical with her anymore, but claims she is a special person.... blah... ugh.). I finally faced
      The fear that he might choose her.... or his own crazy logic... or whatever else instead of the hard work and courage and true love and forgiveness necessary to come home. I deserve a wholehearted marriage not some compromise BS with the OW still hanging around....

      SS you also deserve a wholehearted marriage that reflects the beautiful woman that you are!!! My thoughts love and light go to you and all of our sisters on this journey! It is super hard some days, rest as needed, but don't lose heart!!

      Love
      Becky

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    5. Well said, Becky! I am so proud of you, and of you, SS. Seems like you are thinking clearly and making good but hard choices. Becky, what your therapist said is right on. They are scrambling around, trying to keep both women. My H is still trying to do it in a way, even though intellectually he knows he's lost me.
      SS, stand your ground! You are making the best decisions for you and your kids, and no one has the right to rush you.

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    6. Ex and I had a horrible text argument on Thursday. He had some good friends that have not reached out to him at all during the divorce. He is terribly hurt by this. In a fit of sympathy and solidarity, a couple of weeks ago, I said I would unfriend them on FB (I know, I know). Anyway, I don't like unfrieding people, even people I am not especially close to, so I put it off. He went creeping on my FB account and found out. He also found a post of mine from a couple of months ago, in which I mentioned what a tough year it had been and how much stronger I felt. A few people who know I''m divorced posted their sympathy and support. My ex, who can be prone to paranoia, interpreted that to mean that I had told these people the more intimate details of the infidelity. He also saw a clip of me rehearsing for an upcoming play, and mistakenly assumed that the guy I was standing next to was the same guy he has suspected me of having a secret relationship with (did I mention he is prone to paranoia?). The truth is, I only have a passing acquaintance with the guy I was standing next to AND the guy he has been jealous of in the past (Catch me trusting ANY man right now - ha! But that's another story).
      Wow, it sounds even crazier when I retell it. The whole thing spiraled out of control. He demanded that I take our kids' pics down from FB, since I hadn't unfriended the people I said I would unfriend. I refused. He threatened me with legal action. I was shocked. I told him to go ahead and waste his time and money and cause additional pain and stress to me and the kids, if that was what he wanted. He accused me of playing mind games. I told him that, as far as I was concerned, the entire conversation was manupulative on HIS part. Eventually, I cut it off, because I figured from past experiences that he would eventually calm down. He did, but it still soured my whole day.
      We hammered out a compromise that evening. I unfriended the people who had hurt him, but I made it clear that I would not allow him to sift through my friends list and make calls on that. I agreed to get his okay on any pics I post of the girls in the future. At first I refused to unfriend the guy he was jealous of, but I had to back down when he pointed out that the guy had briefly followed out 13-year-daughter on Instagram. I don't believe he meant any harm - like me, she is in the community theatre community- but I had to cede to his point that, as a father, he had a right be concerned.
      It feels wrong to let him determine any of my social media choices - particularly when I suspect his motives - but as long as our kids are on my FB, I feel like he has a right to speak about who sees them. Which puts me in an awkward position. What do y'all think about that? I think his concern for the kids is genuine, but I also think that, consciously or subconsciously, he wants to control me.
      I told him that threatening legal action was unacceptable, and that I would not be bullied. I pointed out that I had never objected to the kids being on his FB, even when his girlfriend was a friend for a little while. And her family. I said that, since he was drawing such a strong line about who saw his kids, that meant I could draw lines too, and I would absolutely forbid it for them to ever meet her. I've never said that before; I only ever made the caveat that I be informed before any meeting took place, and be allowed to set ground rules. He claims, she is not his girlfriend, only a friend - a "special person", as Becky says (makes you want to spit, doesn't it?). And so far, the issue of her meeting the kids has not arisen, except in theory. But he started to back down pretty quickly when I said I would forbid it, which is telling, I think.

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    7. (Continued) We've been cautiously polite since then, collaborating on the kids' Halloween costumes.
      What do you think, friends? I'm having trouble being objective. Am I being a doormat? Am I being appropriately respectful of his rights as a father? Are we - God forbid - using the children to fight our battles, which I swore we would never do? The kids are completely unaware of any of the conversation/conflict, but it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
      Sorry for the long post. Love and hugs to you all!

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  90. Phoenix.. I think your h is the one playing mind games.. god forbid should you stand at the side of another man .. ha, how fukkking dare he.. I think he knows he's lost you and is clinching at straws as let's be fair the only thing you have keeping you in contact are your daughters.. so he's zooming in on protecting his kids, fair point I suppose give him the benefit of the doubt. However other than the children you do not have to answer to him.. that's the beauty of divorce : ) .. what a silly man he's lost his marriage and children for a 'special friend' ffs really???? Honestly Phoenix the mind boggles!! I need some counselling right now : ) Phoenix you hold all the cards right now .. and your h knows it .. love you Phoenix xxx

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  91. Phoenix I don't think I even got to the point : ) other than the fact that he's sinking fast.. he's realised he's fucked up and instead of owning up to his shit decisions he's blaming you!!! Gosh I'm seeing the same thing with my h right about now .. it's like he blames me for messing his life up .. for not forgiving him.. for making his life difficult erm hello you had the fucking affair dick head.. sorry with all the foul language I'm having a melt down : ( might be something to do with the fact I'm turning 40 on wednesday lol) bit anxious 😩 .. new beginnings .. lots of love ❤️

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  92. On Saturday my h 'moved out' for our temporary separation (his wish, not mine, but I'm going along with it to see what light may dawn away from our current surreal limboland- 5 weeks since he told me of his affair and he is still in phone contact with the ow). Anyway, he was back for lunch on Sunday and was planning to cook for us both (?!), but I had already got stuff ready. After helping put the baby to bed, he went off to his temporary accommodation (the place where the affair happened, although the ap is now on the other side of the country). This evening I was delayed at work and told my h I would be late to collect our daughter from the minder. He said he'd do it. When I came home, he was making dinner for us all. I was surprised. He started crying- first real tears I've seen in months- and said "whatever happens, I don't want to hurt you. I'm sorry". I held his hand, but his feelings washed over me without getting me upset. I was calmly thinking: maybe realisation is hitting home... maybe he doesn't want to separate... I just don't know. I thought things were weird last week, but this is even weirder. We had a real smile at each other though. I can't figure out if he is starting his journey back to me or trying (subconsciously) to keep me 'happy' before he finally says sayonara. Tomorrow we are seeing a mediator together to agree on terms of the separation (probably to last 2 months). And, to add to the CRAZY mix, his parents (whom he told at the weekend) want to meet me because they are so disappointed in him. I feel like a tightrope walker without a rope. Any responses or advice very very welcome.

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