Separating or Divorcing, Page 6

209 comments:

  1. I'm re-posting this because I need some sympathy and commiserations. Hugs!

    He's drinking again and I expressed concern to him about this. Got a long dramatic speech about how in control he is, how scared the accident has made him and how he never wants to go there again. And I'm thinking "so why touch it at all then?" and I'm also observing from a distance what an incredible story teller he is and how he was attempting to get my buy in to his version of where he is and I'm struck at how this story telling must function in his life. It's why I bought his bs for so long. Its why he's so good at sales. Its why I often used to come out of conversations with him thinking "wait what just happened?" And the other thing that becomes apparent in this conversation is that my fear that the OW was going to resurface is completely founded. That "they are not in a relationship now, but he's not ruling it out in the future." So he never stopped talking to her. Even though he told me in August that it was over. I guess we have different definitions of "over." That I considered trying to reconcile with this man, that I lost sleep over him for one second, that I might today have been staggering from dday 3 makes me want to throw up. The level of manipulation (that he wanted to see what would happen with me but kept her as a back up plan, or maybe I was the back up plan?) and the delusions of grandeur, he's got this all sorted. Can you imagine if I had tried to work things out with this mess of a man?
    Thing is, I do believe him when he says he just wants me to be happy. It is especially convenient for his consciences if I move on and have a good life and he doesn't ever have to directly deal with the harm he's caused. But I think he even believes himself when he delivers that line. (I do too, I'm just angry right now). I genuinely believe he's doing his best. It's just not good enough for me any more.
    So I am a little numb about the OW. Who knows how that will play out. I feel like I could deal with him dating, finding someone on Match or whatever. Anything but her. But I'll deal with her if that is what happens too. I am feeling grief. Not the bone shattering grief of dday 1 and 2, when I was trying so hard to not believe it was true and trying so hard to fix it. Now the grief is a soft quiet place of stillness, a place where I am burying my dead and brushing the dirt from my hands.

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  2. Still standing, I’m sorry your here again, I understand it’s not the same as d day 1 or 2 but nonetheless it’s still painful. If it’s any consolation I don’t believe you were his back up plan that was always going to be the ow, you my dear was his plan, but for him he just hasn’t got the fight in him. Like you said his good enough is not good enough for you anymore and that my dear needs applauding that proves just how far you have come you’ve kept your boundaries clear and your expectations high. Seriously still standing you should be so proud of yourself right now, your not settling for anything less than you deserve that takes balls, courage and strength. Give yourself the time now to understand what has happened, grieve, brush of the dirt from your hands and thank god that you have lived through this nightmare and it is hopefully coming to an end. Your future now lies in your hands ss, I can see a rainbow 🌈. Try not to dwell too much on whether he will or won’t go back to the ow, she’s an easy target for him. Cest la vie my friend. Thinking of you my love.. big big hugs xxxx

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  3. Thanks Sam A, I appreciate your kind words and thoughts. Especially the parts about the OW being an easy target. Its true and I'd lost sight of that. She's the "sure thing" and I use that in the old, derogatory sense. At some point, I hope I can get me to where I don't care anymore, about being not chosen, about him not fighting for me, ll of it. For now it just stings and I'm allowing myself to be sad about it. I think where I want to get to is a place where she is just a non-entity; a person of zero importance in my life. Even if she shows up in his. I won't show her my pain or grant her any power by directing anger or disdain or anything. I want get to a place where she is more worried about me than I am about her because I literally give zero shits about her. #goals
    I can also see with compassion (just a little) what he is doing in his head. He's still flailing trying to face up to his addiction issues (or not) and having put himself out there just the tiniest bit (saying he was sorry, saying he regretted not working things out) he was not at all prepared or equipped to deal with a "prove it" which to him must have felt like rejection. So he's doing what Brene Brown calls constructing confabulations. He's making up stories and engaging in catastrophic thinking around all of it, which is where his very tender ego is most comfortable. He thinks he "knows" that I gave him my answer which was "I need time to see what you do and how things play out." He's added the interpretation that what I really meant was "no, fuck off". When in reality I simply meant what I said. He lies and obfuscates so much, he doesn't know how to believe words at face value. Or how to deal with being uncomfortable for very long. Or how to believe in something enough to fight for it. (although a tiny inner voice says he fought for her, but that is BS too. He's fought for neither of us. Rather he's wandering the path of least resistance.)
    And of course he's confused that I would be hurt or angry that he is still in touch with the OW. Because if I'm dating, I must be over it and have moved on completely, right? And therefore I should feel no pain about him being involved with anyone. It boggles my mind that he doesn't get that I can be moving on to something new and still not over the hurt. Ironic from a guy who has clung to his own hurts for all eternity. He just makes me tired. I don't even feel the urge to fix this one for him.
    He's such a black and white thinker. Everything is completely under his control or everything is a complete catastrophe. Nothing in between.
    So I am going for a run/walk along my trail by the river and look at the leaves turning and watch for blue jays, hawks, vultures and eagles and whoever else graces me with their presence. And I will look forward to Saturday with my new guy and enjoy his gentle, soothing company. God it is so lovely to spend time with someone who says what they mean and does what they say and doesn't extract a price when I don't play the right role.

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  4. Ss1 you have such a great skill in articulating what is going on for you, and your h. You know this guy better than he knows himself. Even after everything you still hold him in high regard which is really important for moving forward and getting into new relationships. He sounds like a terribly complex kind of guy and I’m not surprised your exhausted with it all.. for now just enjoy the non complicated male in your life. : ) big hugs ss1 .. your no 1 fan 😊 xxx

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  5. We've been talking on other posts but I do sympathize so much with where you are right now. From your articles etc it's plain to see that you are someone who looks at everything from every angle, that you were willing to give your husband a chance. I feel scared that this too is my situation, that I have a husband that can't or won't get it and that I've reached a point where I realise I now might never be able to tell or believe that he can be what he needs to be. Like your husband mine has kept saying that he wants the best for me and doesn't want to hurt me. Once he said it, so eloquently and wonderfully while at the same time he'd gone back talking to the OW as friends (stating to her that nothing could happen but nonetheless lying to me). You have come to a time when you're realising that your husband can't do any better, despite his declarations. It's a terrible shame. I do hope the clarity helps you move onto something better for you in the future.

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    1. FOH. How can they say they don't want to hurt us when what they have done has almost killed us and then knowing our pain go back to what has caused it by talking, or seeing the ow. This riled me for years thinking "how could he when we're married - I'm the love of his life, that's why we married". How wrong was I. He no longer loved me - he's one messed up mentally immature selfish man who only loves himself. This realisation, this admission, has led me to finally start to let go of feelings toward him, to no longer care. It's not an overnight realisation, but one that has taken months, years to come to terms with. To understand I can't fight to make our marriage work on my own. For me, to help me get over this was to now go no contact with him. The kids are old enough to communicate with him on their own, and so far, I have only had to have limited contact with him via txt. I know 7 weeks is not long, but I have to start. And it has helped. Hard at first, but I just had to do it for my own sanity. Why would I want to be in contact with someone who time and time again has lied, cheated, deceived and done everything to hurt me (and our kids) just to please himself? That's not love, that's not friendship - that's an enemy!!!!
      Our first separation 1 year ago, I was trying to keep the peace, keep it together for the kids, and I was living with hope we'd get back together. So I was speaking to him, seeing him, still having the occasional family dinners - but to him, this suited him as he was living his single life ways and still having his family around, his family time - he was still controlling the situation, the separation – me! I couldn't do it this time. I needed to take back control of me, to respect myself - that's why I have gone no contact. It gets easier as each day goes by, and knowing he's still living his "f... boy" ways which makes me realise I have done the right thing. Does it hurt? Of course there are days that hurt like hell, there are still some triggers, but deep down I know it's what had to be done and is best for me in the long run.
      - sorry for the ramble-
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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    2. Hugs to you to my dear Gabby. We so wish that our husband's can stop being so selfish and stupid and really take into account how they are hurting us. From talking to my husband (who is sleeping on the couch for the past two weeks) he is coming to an understanding of why he has done the things he has done - this time it was inappropriate friendships but it seemed he was so overwhelmed he shared with many many people including a couple of single women without thinking about my criteria for transparency and safety. I get why he did it but it doesn't make it easier to understand why it never strikes them that they are 'killing' us. My husband says that this time he wants to put things in place to make sure he doesn't fall into inappropriate actions, crossing boundaries again. It's going to have to be a massive and consistent effort to bring this marriage back from the brink. I completely understand how, for you, you must now get out of contact. I've said this to my husband that I cannot live in the old way anymore, that he and his actions are triggers into poor mental health for me. You are right to get out of that situation and it is horrible to have to do it but hopefully you get the peace of mind you so need and get your life back. xx

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  6. Hi ladies. I really wish my h would say that he wished me the best and meant it. Instead I am stuck with someone who doesn’t want to put in the hard work but can’t see me leave either and I’m stuck because I feel trapped at times. Not so much now we aren’t living together as I only have to see him a few hours a week which at times can be too much. He just isn’t what I want or need anymore and living separately is my first step to a permanent separation I’m sure but I’m choosing how I do this carefully given that I depend on his monthly income to a degree but should the shit hit the fan I’m sure I would cope. I realise the less time you spend with these type of men the less time you want to soend with them they are needy, sulky, immature, irresponsible selfish people with their priorities being them. I need a plan a long term one eventually but I’m felling ok about life. I know God will guide me I have faith. I might be lucky and he might wish me well one day ��.. here’s hoping xxx

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    1. Sam A. My husband didn't want to put in any hard work - hence where we are today - separated. I too hoped to try and set myself and my kids up a bit more financially before we separated, but didn't get there, so if that's what you need, if you can hang in there to do it, do what's right for you and your beautiful kids. It's hard enough on us emotionally, but then to be forced to have to deal with financial situations of uncertainty is then just another blow, another burden to deal with which is adding stress to us which we really don't want. Sam A. I wish you well EVERY day.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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    2. SamA
      I'm still working with my h for a better relationship and I'm sure he didn't realize that it would be this much work for him because in the past I wasn't nearly as hard to make happy! Truth is, it still shouldn't be that hard, all I'm asking for is honesty and genuine love. Most days I see him being this man, occasionally, I still see a very selfish man. I think we're still both a work in progress! I'm hoping you find your path to peace and happiness! Hugs!

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    3. Sam, it’s true. Distance really does help. It helps you heal and it helps you move on. But I respect that you are going at a pace that is comfortable for you. You are a wise lady, and you will navigate your course well, with God’s help. Hugs to my sweet sister!

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  7. SS1 - In control! Idiots they are. My husband - (what do you call them when you are separated??) told me at one stage when he was supposed to have stopped contact with his whore, "I know what I'm doing. I'm in control of myself". Ha ha ha. What a fool. I found out he was still in contact with the whore. He believes the bullshit he spins. My h sounds like yours. He could talk his way out of a paper bag. I think a lot of our husbands must have done the same international course of "how to spin your own bullshit and believe it". I too get annoyed at myself for having loved him and tried for too long to make us and our family work when he was only interested in himself. All that wasted sleep on him that I can't get back. Makes me tired thinking about it!!! SS1. Exactly. I think - I feel - my husband has said he wants me to be happy too - is his way of saying - If you're happy, you're not angry with me and I no longer have to be accountable for your pain and it allows him to then justify being able to get with as many whores as he wants. I too want to be happy - for me - not ever for him - but I am still angry and hate him. I'm sorry you are having to hear he's in contact with the ow again. I don't know if mines in contact with his original ow - but if it's not her, there will be someone else - I'm certain there is another one now. He thinks he's some stud and he's loved and adored by all these younger women - puke!! Despite my anger and hatred toward him, I am very happy with my life. With my beautiful children but mostly with myself for staying true to me -to my morals and beliefs.
    You are such a good person to be genuine in your belief he is doing his best, but you are right "it's not good enough for you". You deserve an abundance of happiness.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  8. Thanks ladies, this journey is a difficult one regardless of whether we stay or go. I’m trying to keep my heart soft for me mostly having so much hatred inside me doesn’t better me it just makes me bitter. Every cloud has a silver lining remember that ladies. Happy Monday love y’all xxx

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  9. Thanks for the love y'all. I've needed it lately. I sometimes feel like I can't turn around without crossing paths with my former self or life or my ex's stomping grounds. And right now, that is painful. I'm recycling for sure. So tired of feeling angry, so tired of hurting, so tired of feeling like I want to barf acid on the ow.
    This weekend my lovely new guy took us on a motorcycle ride up through the mountains near where live to visit an old ghost town. Unexpectedly, we passed through a town which was theplace of the last trip my ex and I took as a couple, post dday, he was still fully involved with the OW but pretending to try to fix things. He was awful to me on that trip and awful in general. We got accidentally locked out of the b&b and he was going to break in, but I eventually persuaded him that this was a bad idea and we should wait it out in the pub down the street where he drank beers and chain smoked. And I felt all cringey remembering how hard I had tried to put together a trip that he would like with antique places and history and how much it all just went wrong. There's more back story to it but I dont have the energy. And I started ruminating about this while riding on the back of the moto with the new guy and then I noticed what I was doing and got so mad at myself and so mad at my ex. I'm just tired of feeling hurt and angry. So I reconnected with the moment and enjoyed the ride and enjoyed the rest of the evening and ghost town and spending time with my new guy.
    Then today, I'm so blue. Just so blue. SOme of it is pms but I make myself go run anyway. And at somepoint after mile four I realize I am 15 minutes deep into rehearsing a long diatribe to my ex about the OW and how could he thin I would be open to trying to work things out and have him still in contact with her? How could he not see how much harm he has done, how much pain he has caused me? How could he not understand that his fucking whore was a 100% deal breaker? ... and then I notice what I am doing and I just start crying on the trail while I am running. People must have thought I was mental. I was/am just so fucking tired of feeling hurt and angry. I think I need to write my ex a letter over on my blog so I can start to let this latest round of ouch go. I'm not ever going to make him understand because he doesn't want to or is incapable of understanding that I can be enormously wounded and still doing my best to get on with my life.
    I'm just feeling sad and I'm letting it soften me up.

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  10. Phoenix, I saw you post from 10/26 even though it is not visible on the prior page.
    I think my wording was "butthurt and in flames"... remember that every time he tries to hook you in with taunts or with the "i'm only living for our girls" drama/sob story.
    His whole "I'm in the middle" comment. What a pity party. However, I'm so glad he told you about "Saint Phoenix" because you know now that she also believes you are better than her. that's got to be a little gratifying.
    Enjoy the good terms, but I can see you are on alert for more drama ahead as he crashes and burns. Get yourself clear. And I stand by my advice to detach as much as possible. Its really made my life more livable and I am going to have to redo some of that work after almost believing my ex was sincere about reconciling.
    I'm still terrified but hanging on to the hope that good things are ahead for me. Even with the grief and disappointment, I know and feel so much better off emotionally. (even while I rumble with some recycled emotions and pain and with being tired of being angry and hurt). It's complicated isn't it?

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    1. Yep, those were your words! :-)
      As for the skank, I think she’s bitter because she’s having to face evidence that I am actually a good and decent person. That doesn’t fit in with her narrative. I was supposed to be a nagging, yelling. complaining bitch who would slink off and leave them to their “happily ever after”. I was supposed to be less than human. Instead, as she faces the fact that I’m standing strong on certain issues, as she realizes certain people have feelings of loyalty to me, as it become clear that I have a support system of family and friends while he -and to some extent she - is much more isolated - it becomes more and more obvious that I am not a cardboard stereotype. I am a 3- dimensional person, and there are people who love and respect me because I’m a good person, wothry of love.
      And if I’m the good guy, then that makes HER....oops! No, she doesn’t want to think about that.
      That’s mostly speculation, of course. But it makes sense. They don’t want to think of us as human. They don’t want to think of us as NICE. Because then they have to face the fact that they did a really shitty thing to a real person, a good person. And they don’t have the character to face that.
      SS, I so identify with what you said above. I will be doing well. And then suddenly I will find myself obsessing, having long, involved imaginary conversations with him and with her. And it pisses me off! Because I am so ready to move on. I don’t want to be sad or angry anymore. But sometimes, I still am. It’s the PTSD, or PISD, however you want to say it. I think about the months I spent being lied to, betrayed, and emotionally abused, and I know that there are triggers that send me back there. So sometimes I still get angry and sad.
      But I am trying to make decisions based on my values, not my emotions. That’s what helps me be a better mom. I’m also doing my best to distract myself, with my daughters and friends, with work and dating.
      Yes, friend. It’s complicated. It’s scary. But you’re right: even though we are damaged, we are better and stronger.
      Well, most of the time!

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  11. Ss1, I think feeling hurt and sad can feel exasperated at times of the month (pms) I know it feels like that for me, but it sounds like you are letting it wash over you, your not hiding or pushing it away your facing the pain and hurt head on which is so brave. You then come back from the pain and live in the moment recognising that there’s a lot of good going on for you right now, the way you can balance your emotions is a skill, a lesson you’ve had to learn in this journey your on. Let’ talk about the new guy, he sounds like fun, a free spirit, so refreshing to hear, his approach to life sounds amazing and care free ( in a responsible adult way). I’m so pleased your enjoying your time together, I need to get myself some of that : )

    I know it can feel like trudging through mud at times but you my strong lady pick yourself up and dust yourself of each time coming back stronger and fearless. You have. a big soft heart and we love you for it.stay in the moment ss1 . Lots of love xxxx

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  12. Halloween is a hard one. Halloween was the night he went out under a fucking false premise--using my car--which i HAD to have back to go to work. He got back JUST in time and I ran out the door. Now I can't remember (i can't believe that I cant remember) if it was the night before or the night after that he came into my home office SHIT faced drunk begging me to help him, with his drinking, and for the first time EVER, I said "i cannot help you, you have to do this alone". in the few years previous, i had got him books, we watched some stuff geared towards alcoholism, he'd stop drinking, he'd start drinking again and I was sick of dealing with it. to the point that that very night i started making a plan to leave him in January. Fast forward to December 30---that was my D-Day--the day I found that he had slept with two women in the last few months--ONE was a craigslist hooker, on that Halloween.

    I woke up feeling rough today and it took a while to figure out why, i swear the body remembers this stuff. He told me he had retweeted something political on his twitter, which he had not used forever. I went to look and saw that his last entry 2 or 3 years ago (which i had known about) was an "acronym" for lack or a better term, which used figures to spell out something ridiculous like "if you are bored, come over and I am down to fuck". when i saw it after d-day 2 16 moths ago when we spit up and then reconnected I asked him to take it down. He claimed he forgot his password--lame. So tonight, I asked him again if he would take it down- I didnt make a big deal, just told him i looked at his re-tweet and saw it and wished he'd take it down-he denied it was even up there. so i offered to show him. He said to me "i must hurt your feelings a lot, I must be a totaly fuck up" I told him to get out of his pity party and not turn it into a big deal, I hadn't--just take it down--its under his real name, and although not everyone will get the whole stick figure/acronym thing (i had to google it) It's still a horrible thing to have up there. Well now it's going on 2 am, and it's been much more important for him to watch TV and withdraw all night. We've had a really nice time lately--we even went on a wonderful weekend trip, so when shit like this happens, i wonder what kind of freeking Jekyll/Hyde I am dealing with. Ridiculous, selfish behavior, I swear. I HAVE his password and I could take it down, but screw it, sometimes I have just done enough.

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  13. Oh Steam, what is wrong with these guys that they duck and dive and dodge and do anything except the thing we ask or what will help. I get that pity party stuff a lot too. We are facing a line in the sand moment now (I discovered more deception and one to one chats with women that were not affairs but not acceptable either and he's on couch). My h has had years of excuses and defenses, work truly has been a big stressor (court cases etc) but there just always seems to be reasons he can't do things or reasons why he acted how he did. He feels he is the villain all the time and responsible but that's just him feeling self-pity again. Trouble is, I have been critical in the past. But he's always been ultra ego defensive and dismissive of my real concerns as well. He's somehow managed to do mental gymnastics to avoid realising when he's doing something wrong (he started chatting and sharing in groups first so when it ended up one to one with some of the women he didn't see it as different??) Yet then, looking back, he knew it was wrong and hid it, deleted texts instead of owning up. There's been so much of me looking to see 'why' he did things but this time I'm losing my patience. I said to him this morning I don't want to be telling him he's always doing everything wrong (and I haven't) but he needs to take this seriously and take ownership of it and deal with it and take action. When I think of your h's avoidant behaviour, he just doesn't want to think about what he's done or, for some reason, admit you have a point. Or what?? My h did this about keeping in contact on nights out. And yes - on the Jekyll/Hyde my h is great about nice times - while he's sleeping on couch now and gathering together a disclosure document for full honesty with me, it's taking time (Insert, reason, excuse).But he took me for lunch yesterday and other considerate things. They seem to be able to do the nice stuff but haven't dealt with whatever is allowing them to be sneaky, disrespectful, dismissive of our pain etc. And yes, we have done enough. It's up to my h this time to face the fact that his deception has had a terrible effect and to find all the documents, evidence etc and not have me have to ask. It makes me mad that your h isn't doing every last thing you ask (I'm sure you are reasonable!) to make things better.

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  14. FOH--I get that it's uncomfortable for them. But lets get real--is it comfortable for us? Um no. I hate being taken back to that time even though the sting is mostly gone and I don't expect that it will ever go away unless he really steps up (he has to a certain extent.) all of life is a stressor, seriously. They say there is never a "perfect time" to start a diet, or stop smoking or have a kid. you have to MAKE time instead of putting off dealing with everything until you think it's the perfect time. And yes--yes, my H had the same ridiculous attitude with one hooker (who i had met under different circumstances--there must be a secret handshake that lets them recognize each other, because i had no a clue what she actually did for a living). Since I had MET this girl, he thought it was OK to keep her as a friend via text, thinking that one day we could all be friends. I cannot make this up. I mean i really think there is a short circuit in their brains. that your husband thought that it was a great idea to talk marriage issues with some woman online, who, what--was also a cheater? Why can we see how effed up that is and they can't or wont. they MUST know or they would not hide it. I don't tell him how to live his life, and in fact i still tell him if he feels trapped, that he can go and I wont fight it. But yes, it's tempered by so many nice thoughtful things. It's not gaslighting, it's like two sides of the same coin. I'm glad your H is getting his shit together with the disclosure. My H has put it off since JANUARY. and that's actually become fine with me, because the longer he goes without it, the longer he has to slip into old patterns and I want to know what I am dealing with almost a year and a half after the fact. Is he slipping back? i am convinced that he is not acting out physically, but is he on the internet or using an app these days? I doubt it, i really doubt it, but if he is, then I have a right to know. Are you doing your disclosure with a shrink?

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  15. I haven't planned that far ahead (about disclosure with a shrink). He is just getting the info together but we do need to go to counselling and its probably a good idea to do it with another party there. Trouble is, now there is a very real crisis at his startup (we aren't getting paid this month and don't have enough to pay the mortgage.)so he's grappling with that and has v little time to put the document together. But there have been issues all along with the company so sorting out the marriage always comes second in line. I have no confidence so far that this transparency document will be the real deal. He is able to spin so many things to himself that he might forget or not include. He has deleted so many private conversations, texts etc. I keep searching his computer/phone because I still don't believe he will tell me. I found two invites to his acting class colleague (the woman he began to share too much with) to coffee in a bar before the class. The way he phrases it, they would end up chatting at break in the class and sometimes he ended up one to one with her. He's also deleted whole text streams from her and another woman who he admitted he was more attracted to. It's very hard to have romantic/relationship feelings to someone who passively (or actively) gets into these situations. And he wants to be liked and accepted and loved - so if these women are being nice...It was an emotional affair first time round and I don't see much of a distance between what's happening here. One of the messages from the woman was 'where are you my love'. He says she was worried because he went to one of the classes in a state worried about work and the marriage and then didn't contact her back later. It's ambiguous to me though. Maybe he's just an old fashioned flirt but it got us into a lot of trouble before. I'm just done with trying to figure it all out. As you say you just want to know what you are dealing with.

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  16. SS, I was looking up at your earlier post: the storytelling, the charm, the persuasiveness and plausibility.
    Are you sure we didn’t marry the same man?!

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    1. Phoenix, wouldn't that just be the punch line of the century?! I wouldn't put it past him. Lordy.
      More and more I notice how dramatic he is. Everything is a gd crisis. He sent this email to our financial advisor about moving all our investments into cash holdings because the president and confidence and the market is due for a major correction and aaarg! And I can see how in the old days, I would have bought into his panic, because our unwritten rules were a) he knows better, b) I'm bad with money so what do I know and c) he knows better. Now I'm thinking calm down guy. And in conversation I said, "I'll be surprised if our advisor responds with anything other than "don't panic" and don't do anything hasty." And that I was not inclined to move any money out of any investments at this time. But what a lot of drama and what a cockamamie, knee jerk reaction to do with what is still our money. It makes me wonder what other missteps were actually taken in the past?
      And then our son stays home sick. I always text my ex to keep him apprised because that is co-parenting. And he instantly goes, if this is a chronic gastro thing it could have serious long term consequences. Is he avoiding school? Is he sad and it is making him sick? etc. etc. I'm just seeing a kid with a sensitive stomach. He's only missed a few days this year and doesn't like to because he hates making up work. Once again I had to take a "calm the fuck down" stance. It is tiresome. No wonder I used to be depressed all the time. This dude is exhausting.
      Add in there my recent rumblings around consent and how little I was allowed in our sex life and wow, I am really done, becuase I don't think he's even begun to deal with how problematic his attitudes toward women, our bodies and what we "owe" him or what he is entitled to take to feed his ego. I understand how it happened. When you are molested as a kid you learn that your consent doesn't matter and that sex is something you take. But eventually you need to be accountable for your own actions. i know for sure that not being allowed to say no to sex (while making me believe that there was something wrong with me for wanting to say no at all, let alone when I wasn't feeling safe) is not something I will tolerate ever again. So wow.. lots to rumble with.
      My delightful new guy took me to see a movie (revelation: he took me to something that I wanted to see even though tit would not have been his first choice... faints) and I knew it was going to be sad, but I was not prepared for how sad. Victoria & Abdul. Some parts were so sweet and funny. Some parts just so sad. And I think, tapped into the deep well of sadness I'm still carrying. I felt her loneliness so much. I get afraid sometimes that if I start crying I'm just not going to ever stop.

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    2. SS1,
      I have the same fear about crying, that I won't be able to stop. I stuff it down, and stuff it down. It's become a little luxury I allow myself every now and then.

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    3. Ss1 if crying is what you need to do then do it, cry as many buckets as you need. We’re emotional people, We need to get rid of the pain somehow. Always makes me feel a little lighter. Your not alone my love you have hundreds of women who have your back day in and day out.. love you ss xx

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  17. One thing here FOH, i have been told, even by my H that I am a flirt. I kind of am, but honest to God I'm at the age where it really doesn't do me a lot of good--LOL, I look good, as they say "for my age". But I would NEVER need to delete a string of e-mails or texts between me and any of my friends or acquaintances, even if I called them "my love". In fact I am honest to a fault. Years ago a fairly once famous person wanted my input into some of his upcoming work. I met him once a few months earlier (and had had a minor crush on him about 15 years before. but he didnt even come close to breaking the top ten) So I was flattered in about 1000 ways. But as i was heading to lunch, I spelled out every fear and every hope that I had TO MY H. "oh god, i hope he does not hit on me", "oh god, why does he think that I am important enough to give him input", "i hope I can be helpful and not a yes-woman to the work he's running by me etc etc. In the end the whole thing was legit, and I gave H the play by play when I got home. I'm really that honest. My H and yours on the other hand, have the delete button as their closest friend. i was handed a highly edited phone on D-day 2 so that I would know "everything". It wasn't everything, but it was enough. Months later, not looking for it I came across one of the convos UNEDITED he had saved in his computer. That one sticks with me to this day. Those words really hurt. REALLy hurt. So although I think i want to know everything, I don't know if I do. I have had enough of that past. I do believe there are things he does not remember, because he had gone back to drinking heavily prior to Dday 2, but there is just nothing left in his computer and I have a huge fear that he has all this stuff tucked away on a hard drive, like a serial killer who saves trophies,although he swears he does not. I am starting to think that that might me as much of a deal breaker for me as him ever stepping out again. Being a tech guy, i know he knows how to hide stuff, and seriously, I am done looking.

    i think it's really wise to do a disclosure with a shrink. Ours went terribly awry last year when he disclosed one thing to me right before we went in for a disclosure, which was not handled well anyway. Instead of talking about all the things he had done i was totally blindsided by the ONE thing he told me right before (it was the friends with the hooker situation and that he was still in touch) and we ended up focusing on JUST that and my shock and anger. I think a shrink that deals with disclosure is a really good way to go. Like, you, I also want a third party. My biggest issue in therapy is practicing what I have learned WITHOUT the shrink present. I tend to save up. I just can't seem to deal well with it on my own, when it's just me and the H. My shrink wants me to work on that and I know i need to, I am just sort of sick of the whole thing. I like the good parts, I like them so much, they are so good, but in the long run I still have to admit that I have no idea where we will end up, in the end. I hope it's together, but in marriage 3.0.

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  18. Just sitting with a few moments of my own uninterrupted thoughts. Going no contact for 2 months - I feel like my marriage and being with my husband was SO long ago. I feel like I don't know him, or us - what we had.
    Is this maybe a way I am unknowingly protecting myself with this detached feeling? Will something surface soon that will hit me? Let's hope not, as I am enjoying the peace of not having his shit around.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. Gabby
      God knows I pray that the peace you feel is what you need to set you free to be the you that you need to be! Sounds garbled but I know how peace feels when you feel it no matter how temporary it may be! Hugs!

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    2. Gabby I feel you. It's such a strange groundless place. And he feels like a stranger. I felt like a stranger to myself sometimes, after he first moved out. We only had contact about the kids or money. I needed that distance. I felt better for it, when his face or voice would reopen the wound that hadn't had a chance to even scab over yet. I think that distancing feeling is "normal" in this situation. I certainly felt it. Its giving yourself a break from the pain. Giving your heart and mind a rest. It is such a relief to not have his shit around.
      Enjoy the peace. Stuff will resurface when you are ready to process more of it. Hugs Gabby.

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    3. Gabby, nice to hear from you. Enjoy your peace, you deserve it. Sending a warm hug.

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    4. Gabby, I'm glad to hear you feel peace. You have been through a terrible situation and you deserve so much happiness!

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  19. Gabby, enjoy this quiet time, use this time to just be. No doubt the future will bring its trials but you my love will be able to deal with it as you have. If Protecting yourself is what you need then so be it, you’ve come so far in your journey And your at a place of peace : ) bet that feels so good. Lots of love Gabby xxx

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  20. Gabby those feeling of peace are real! Enjoy!

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  21. Thanks Theresa, SS1, Beach Girl, browneyedgirl, Sam A and Steam
    :)
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  22. I got notice that my divorce was final yesterday. I feel like I ought to feel sadder, but I really don't. Just relieved. Just like a deep breathe. I'm tired and a bit under the weather but mostly doing really OK. I don't think my ex really gets yet just how much he hurt me and though he's said he was sorry for not working things out when I offered, he has never actually apologized for all the hurt and bullshit he put me through. Mostly what this feels like is a deep breath. And slightly anti-climactic at that. Slightly lighter than I was yesterday. Now I'm thinking about my health care coverage and the fact I'll need to find a dental policy on my own.
    What is surprising me is that I am feeling some anger, that he's not one of the guys who really woke up and tried to make it right, or fight for me. Anger that he is still living in his own little lalaland and fragile and hoping everyone around him will make everything OK. And anger especially over money. Anger that men bounce back from the financial impact of divorce sooner and much more completely than women (some women never get back to pre-divorce economic levels). Anger that my career took a back seat to his and I will be unlikely to regain the traction I gave up close to ten years ago (even though he's comforting himself with the belief that I could go out and step into an executive job again tomorrow, despite that ten year gap). Angry that he is freaking out about money for small things for our daughter now, when his earnings potential in this new job will have him earning between a quarter to half a million a year probably sometime in the next 12 months and I will never again command that kind of income. Angry that someone else is going to benefit financially from the years of investment that I made and he is going to waltz off to into the sunset with his bags of money. Angry that I know I should feel grateful for the amicable divorce and the large alimony he is currently paying because I know how unusual and fortunate I am that he is willing to pay over what the state requires to keep me and the kids in our home for the next few years. I'm angry because I know society would expect me to feel more grateful, as if this is some gift rather than what he signed up for 20 years ago.
    I'm mad because I am afraid of being poor and not being able to provide for myself in years to come. (This is my family karma, my mom had her shit all blown up in WW2 and was the "charity girl" thereafter. I'm working on letting that fear go, because it's her story, not mine.).
    Thing is, I don't feel like I am resisting any of it, but I think I'm probably scared about money, still. And so scared is often converted into angry. I'm not overwhelmed by it. I don't think about it all day. But it definitely came up yesterday.
    Also, I was driving when I got the news. It was a gray, overcast, autumn day. Just after I got the message, the sun broke out from behind the clouds. Symbolic, eh?
    So quick poll for the group. How soon is it in good taste to update my Facebook marital status? ;)

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  23. SS1
    I so get where you are coming from re finances. My STBX(??) also will be extremely financial in years to come that I will not benefit from despite all the sacrifices I have made for "us"....so I totally get how you are feeling.
    You are one amazing woman and you have acquired so many skills away from your old work life that you can bring into your new work life.
    As for your facebook page update - Is the new guy still around?
    When you are ready to update, you will. It's a fact now - but no need to hurry. You will know when the time is right, when you feel right.
    I wish I could give you a divorce party.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  24. Ss1 I hear everything you have said and the anger you have is absolutely valid, your right men always seem to come off better financially even though you were the one who paved the way for him to be a successful businessman. It sucks honey have your time for this to sink in, even though you knew it was coming it’s likely still gonna hit you in your gut.
    As for the Facebook status, I’m not on Facebook nor am I a fan of people who replay their life on it. It’s nobodys business what your status is right now and when your ready you decide what your status will be.
    I’m really feeling for you right now, wish I could do/ say more . Please know you are a trooper like no other .. know your worth and revel in it my love.. take care big big hugs xxx

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  25. It’s been a little while since I checked in. I’m glad I checked today.
    I was driving too. Got the signed decree emailed. June 28th, 2016. I texted my ex, to let him know, and he texted back: I’m sorry.
    I still have the text.
    There’s probably going to be a lot of anger for a while. If yoir curve is like mine, when I put more distance between us, I started to heal, but the anger got worse for a while. Kind of like when you have an injury, and as it starts to heal, it starts to itch? That what the anger was like for me. As I healed, and really started throwing those blinders off, the rage was like nothing I had ever felt before. But it comes in waves, and passes.
    You can feel grateful for the fact that you are fortunate in some aspects, but that doesn’t mean you have to feel grateful to HIM. There are times when I acknowledge his good points, like the fact that he is so loving to the girls and cooperates with me for their benefit, or the fact that he has so far kept up with the small amount of child support I set. I give credit for those things. But I am not grateful. Those are the things that he is SUPPOSED to do, and they are the reasons that he still holds on to a shred of my respect.
    SS, sweet friend - another milestone. Another ending and another beginning. You are moving forward. No, he doesn’t get it. He won’t ever get it. But it will matter less and less.
    Facebook status? I say update it whenever you damn well feel like it. I don’t think it’s in bad taste at all, I think it’s another step in the process of moving on. I put off updating mine for months, out of consideration for him because he kept putting off telling extended family. Stupid of me. When I finally posted something about it, months later, I was shocked at how many people still didn’t know.
    Sending you love and hugs, sister. Time for the next chapter.

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  26. Thanks everyone, for showing up for me today. It means everything. I'm still sick, which accounts for some of my lowness. I wonder if I'm not just a little numb. I had one moment today when I was like "wow. I'm divorced." Thank god for my sister. Who often voices and affirms what is in my head. And thank god for you all and the chance to work through my business here, especially as I will only be able to afford therapy once a month from now on.
    On the facebook status, I was joking. You can change your marital status and it doesn't do a global announcement.
    And yes Gabby, New Guy is still around. We are having Thanksgiving dinner together. It's one on my best meals so I am looking forward to showing off in the kitchen just a little. :)
    Lordy do I wish we could all gather over a bottle of wine or a nice pot of tea and commiserate! Hugs and smooches to you all.

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    1. Oh SS1, I'm sorry you're sick. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if your emotions are just laying low for the time being, as you digest this new status.
      And I, too, have been thinking how nice it would be to try and arrange some sort of get-together. Let's mull it over. Perhaps I collect e-mails privately and arrange a private e-mail group or something? And then we can chat off-line about where/when/how?? Open to suggestions.

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    2. Yes Would love to meet up too.
      Just need plenty of notice to save and plan and find a time to suit us all.
      I was thinking when you launch your book Elle?????
      We could make a week of it at a nice retreat somewhere, where we could have guest speakers, work shops for a few days, then a few days just us. Or just us over long lunches and dinners and walks etc. Sam A. Also adding this to my bucket list (which is just getting bigger). How are things with you Sam A?
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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    3. private email group, yes. I already have our agenda for the first day.
      Day 1
      Arrival, check in
      Receive name tag with real and screen names
      Meet and greet reception
      Hug
      Cry
      Laugh
      Repeat
      That's pretty much day 1. :)

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    4. Awesome. I've already begun to collect the e-mail addresses. I won't publish them -- will just create a private document and then we can try and communicate that way. And I'll post something on the main page in a week or two. And SS1, your agenda is perfect. You're in charge!!

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    5. Elle
      Do you have our email or do we need to post them and you will collect them but not publish. I'm all in!

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    6. I agree ss1 should be ‘ in charge’ : ) xxx

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    7. Theresa,
      I need your e-mail. But might make sense to wait until I post the "call" for a gathering so they're (mostly) in one place.

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    8. Yes, I'd like to come too! I'll keep my eyes open for the call for e-mails.

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  27. I know we say it often here but I’d love to meet up with you ladies before I leave this earth.. it’s on my bucket list.. how could we organise it? I’m being serious : ) xxx

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    1. Me too. See my thoughts in comment to SS1 above. And if you have any ideas, let's hear 'em!

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    2. Hi gabby glad your on board : ) .. I’m
      Ok thanks trying to get my life back on track slowly following the death of my mum, I’m back to work and have recently applied to do a masters in psychology.

      Things aren’t great with the h, he stays over for a few days and then we need to have our own space, we’ve both had enough of each other I swing from living him deeply to hating him even deeper. I know our problem or should I say problems he doesn’t talk so therefore we never get much sorted .. but I’m just tired of trying at the moment just need to concentrate on me and the kids that’s as much as the brain can take.. I still can’t predict what will happen to our marriage..

      How are you gabby? Xx

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    3. Sam A
      I can't imagine what you are going through, with the passing of your mum and having to deal with your h and the rest of life. Thinking of you and sending Big hugs.
      To apply to do your masters - that is fantastic. That'll keep you busy.
      Gee, I wish I could shake some sense into your h. ( I couldn't do it with mine). But you are right. You can't sort this out on your own, if h isn't putting in the effort and this makes it very tiring, so you are right to concentrate on you and the kids.
      As for me. I'm doing pretty good. I put all my time into my kids, me and living, so that helps to forget about the STBX. Last weekend was the first weekend he had the kids for the whole weekend. I hated not having them with me. But. He wasn't making any plans to have them on a regular basis, so I told him he was to have them every second weekend. I hope it cramped his style - as he doesn't want to be married anymore as he wants his freedom. Part of me making this arrangement of him having the kids every 2nd weekend is out of spite. Because he wants his freedom! I want to ensure he doesn't have complete freedom and he steps up to his responsibilities of being a dad.
      I have all my kids with me this weekend. I'm happy.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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  28. PS Now that my divorce is final, I am 100% sure that if I came face to face with the OW, I would punch her fucking lights out. I’ve been working out. A lot. And I’ve committed to only ever calling her “daddy issues” rather than her real name, should she end up in my life in any way. “Tell Daddy Issues to pass the butter.” At first I was going to go with “That Hole with Daddy Issues” But I don’t want to say that in front of my kids.
    Turning anger into dark comedy is sort of healthy, right?

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    1. Turning anger into dark comedy is my favorite coping strategy.

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  29. Hey gabby, well done on sorting out childcare arrangements, you get some time for yourself, kids get to spend time with their father and father takes responsibility for his children the least he can do.. win win!!!

    Enjoy this weekend with the kids, I’m of to a Christmas fayre love this time of year with visiting Father Christmas and all the trimmings.. my mum always went to town with Christmas so I don’t want to let her down this year.. I’ll be thinking of her with wonderful memories of our many chrustmases together .. xxx



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    1. Sam A, I'm sorry for your loss. Sending you a special thought as the Christmas season approaches. It is a beautiful time of year to keep memories alive.
      I also hope we ladies can meet some day.

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  30. I know I have to speak to my IC about how angry I am still with my STBX, and how much I hate him...why???? SS1, you've said here and to Selkie you don't hate your h, you are angry, but don't hate - I just can't get over the hate. Is it because I feel I've wasted 30 years loving someone to end up like this? Can I ask why (and any one else who wants to answer) you don't hate him when he's betrayed you on so many levels?
    I was triggered this morning when one of my kids was trying to be with their dad last night and today, but he told them he's unavailable, he's busy. I know it's my weekend to have them, but he's obviously moved on to someone else and is he unavailable because he's gone interstate to hook up with his old whore or who is the new whore???
    More rant...
    So it seems the universe is sending me women I know from over the years that I bump into and find they too have had a break down in their marriage. Since this 2nd separation, I have told people when they ask "how's ....?" I reply with the truth - "we're separated" and then this seems to allow people to open up about their own marriages, and there are just too many break downs. Which brings me to the next two points. Work and having children - how that changes men.
    One lady I bumped into this week had the same problems as me - work and children. Her x h had a successful job that he spent way too much time at and could not understand her need to spend so much time being a "mother"....and for me, my h spent too much time at work forming "friendships/relationships" with other people. Time that should have been spent with me and the kids. It doesn't help that h works in an environment where management overlooked infidelities in the work place (as h told me of what had gone on with some management).-- I know of some companies that have sacked management for having affairs within the company.-- So with society condoning this, what hope have we betrayed wives got? The breakdown of the family unit in society is a reflection on where society is heading and it's not a healthy place. It's a place of selfish entitlement.
    For my h, life with me and the kids was not exciting. It was repetitive, not glamorous and he was no longer the sole person of my world.
    It seems men are so worried about their needs not being met, and women are busy being mums, caring for these tiny babies -that our husbands helped produce- BUT IT'S NOT FOREVER. I feel my husband, and men like my friends h, are selfish and only thinking of their own needs. What about what our bodies have gone through, the child birth, the breast feeding, the sleepless nights... It's not as if we just have these babies and the next day "tend" to our husbands needs". My selfish h TOLD me that he was still going to do the things he wanted like "going to watch his sport and play his sport", and I was busy with the babies and I never denied letting him have his time... Was I wrong to be so obliging? Would he still have cheated anyway if I had of demanded him to step up more? Are our h jealous of their babies taking our attention???
    Anyway It's a lovely morning, I'm going to go for a walk to clear my head.
    Hugs and thanks for listening.
    Gabby xo

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    1. Gabby I get angry of course I do I have my rant then I get on with the rest of my day. The last thing I want is this man (my h) taking anymore time and energy from my life. I could seriously get myself into a terrible state if I thought about how terrible my h has been over the last 15 years it’s a best seller seriously but I stop myself because I’m here not there anymore and I am strong and brave enough to conquer anything that stands in my way. And you my love are too. Don’t let that anger stop you from being the best mother, friend, neighbour and lover you can be. If we don’t seek help anger can turn into depression and isolation. Gabby get yourself some counselling and work through it, the first step is recognising it which you have done so well done.. hope that walk felt good .. were here for you always gabby., lots of love xx

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    2. Hi Gabby, I hear you loud and clear.

      I also had no objection during the 24 hours a day breastfeeding and nappy-changing phase to my h having 'free' time for his sports and hobbies. I figured at least one of us would be refreshed and relaxed and would buoy up our couple...
      ...but it was when I went back to work when our daughter was 6 months old that my h started to get interested in the ow. I guess my stretched attention (absolute exhaustion!) was just not magnetic enough for him.

      When he told me of his infidelity (almost a year later), my first reaction was sadness and disgust. I don't know why I didn't feel hatred. I sure did feel strong anger (like a warm fire - actually quite empowering) on a few occasions since when he was just impossible to deal with.

      I have always felt like the stronger person, so maybe I still have a shred of empathy for him. I can't explain it.

      I'm glad not to be trapped by hatred, but sometimes I feel like I'm trapped in a wishy-washy kind of limbo. Anyway, none of us really 'choose' our feelings (as I often said to my h- grrr) but we can choose our actions.

      If you feel great hatred, try to express it physically with a punchbag or some vicious scrubbing of tiles or rugs. Running sometimes helps too, if you like sport. Or dancing or roaring singing can be very cathartic.

      Use your energy and get it all out. Don't let it take up residence in your heart. Your heart deserves peace and tenderness.

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    3. Gabby, the hatred. I get it. Sometimes I have felt such strong hatred, it frightened the hell out of me. I never in my life have felt anything like the hatred that overwhelmed me, for him and for the OW.
      The thing is, as I process things and move on, it’s harder to sustain that hatred. And thank God for that, because I was doing reading and soul-searching to try to rein it in, so that my bitterness would not adversely affect my children.
      It’s not gone completely . It’s lingering beneath the surface. If I let myself think too much about all that happened, I could whip it up again. So I try NOT to think too much about it.
      As long as I hate, they have power over me. I'm attempting to break those chains, but it will take time. I am being patient with myself.

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  31. Omg ss1 that made me laugh my ass off : ) xx

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  32. Gabby, I think as far as feeling hate right now, that's totally OK. It's where you need to be. I definitely felt hate for my H and the "hole with daddy issues" often, felt like I had wasted all that time.
    Until I realized a couple of things. First, that for me it wasn't wasted time. That I, during that time, made honest investments in our life. That I have learned a fuckload about myself. That I had my amazing kids, that I literally could not have had with anyone else. That despite how things ended, they didn't start that way. And the love and genuine connection that was there at first (though perhaps immature and idealistic) was genuine. So basically, HE may have wasted his time or looked on it all with regret, but I don't have to buy his affair fog version of reality (or any other version of reality that doesn't jive with mine).
    The other eye opening thing for me, was seeing, in close quarter's his mom's really dysfunctional co-dependent behaviors and how she emotionally manipulates everyone around her trying to get her needs met. She gets everyone to cowtow and baby here. It makes me tired just to watch it. And I thought about what it must have been like to grow up under that cloud layered over the trauma of being molested and telling absolutely no one. ever. And I figured, as sad and fucked up as it was, he was actually doing his best to survive with all his hurt and damage. That he continues to inflict this kind of damage on himself and the people around him, I see with compassion and sadness. Does it also make me angry as fuck? Yes. At his mom for being a mess and just passing it on rather than fixing it because it fucked up my life. At the person that molested him? Yes. Because that person is still around and he has to act like it didn't happen or else it would blow up the whole family (so he believes - really I think he's just denying himself and this person an opportunity to heal but that's my armchair psychology theory...) I'm pissed that WW2 happened and my mom's house got blown up and she got PTSD and became an alcoholic and gave me PTSD etc etc etc. So who, in the end is to blame? Everyone and no one. Ultimately, I believe there comes a time when you have to take responsibility for your own shit and the shit that was handed to you unwillingly.
    I can't hate my ex H for the piles of bullshit that landed on him. If I take the facts that we were married and he cheated out of the equation and just look at his story, it is unutterably tragic. If I watched it as a documentary, I would be in tears. And it explains to me why he did and does still do such crazy hurtful things. I can see all that and still care about him and know I don't want that in my life anymore.
    My guess Gabby is that depth of hate you are feeling has an awful lot to do with the depth of hurt you are feeling. And the depth of hurt you are feeling has as much or more to do with hurts from your past as they do with the present crisis. Your being in the separation limbo and him acting like an idiot continually can't be helping.
    Give yourself time to feel what you need to feel, but also get curious about it. Where do you feel it in your body? What does it remind you of from the past? What do you think caused it to come up right now in this moment? And as Sam A suggests, working with a counselor can do wonders. If the idea is intimidating, and I get it. It can be hard emotional work, know that you don't have to dive in to the deep end in the first session. You get to decide what you talk about in therapy. You can rant about the cat puking on the carpet in the first session if you like.

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    1. SS1,
      You hit on something that came up in my last therapy session. I went to talk about the ongoing issues as a result of my husband’s affair and ended with a full scale meltdown talking about my mother’s death. My therapist gently suggested that maybe it’s easier for me to hang on to anger toward my husband than other things I haven’t processed. I think there’s some truth to it in my situation. Not saying that much of my anger toward him hasn’t been justified but the hurt is so deep. I’ll be the first to admit I avoided grieving her loss. This time of the year is tough for me as she passed away the day before Thanksgiving and each year the sadness comes as we approach Thanksgiving. It’s been 14 years... way too long for me to keep trying to run from it. I know I need to get back to the therapist and try to work through some of it.

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  33. Gabby on your other comment "was I wrong to be so obliging?" I'll tell you what I think I have learned about that. Not wrong, per se, but in reality teaching them that our wants and needs don't matter or worse that we don't have wants and needs.
    I too considered myself a "low maintenance" kind of gal. By saying "sure you can go play frisbee golf with the guys" on a Sunday instead of saying " I feel like we haven't connected all week. I'd like to spend some time together. How can we fit that in today?" I was a)0 not having boundaries and b) not expressing my needs so that c) he learned that he didn't have to consider my feelings or needs.
    We are taught from girlhood to be seen and not heard to give to other but that asking for anything at all for ourselves, especially emotionally is being "needy." And unfortunately, that's horse shit.
    Speaking up for what you need and negotiating that with a partner is called having boundaries.
    I think the other thing that happens with babies is a) we get lots of our needs for emotional and physical affection (think of all the time and snuggles we had with out babies) met through interactions with our babies and b) we are often exhausted at the end of the day from caring for said babies that c) we have no drive to seek or offer physical affection with spouses and d) they end up feeling neglected. I'm not saying that this isx anyone's fault. It just is what happens unless a couple is extremely mindful and has either had a great role model for health relationships (bwahahahahah - not my family) or has gotten some really exceptional advice somewhere and actually had the wisdom to listen..
    Thing is, we are all, at any given time, doing the best we can with the skills and emotional abilities we have. Even our wacked out, selfish, cheating spouses. Even if their best sucks. It somehow makes it less personal for me. Its more about them being sad and busted up than about anything i'm lacking.
    I know now that I am working hard on speaking up when I need things. At work (I need help with this project) In public spaces (I have no idea where the prepackaged peeled shallots are. Can you point me to the right aisle?) At home (kiddo, can you please empty the dishwasher/walk the dog/lower the volume?) and in relationships (I'd really like to see this movie. Will you go with me? or i've already got plans for Weds. can we meet up Thursday instead?) I'm practicing speaking up in small ways because I didn't used to AT ALL! And in the end, we teach people how to treat us by what we put up with.
    Many, many hugs Gabby.

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  34. Guys just thinking about where we could meet up, I’d love New York : ) xx

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    1. I've been googling accommodation on the West and East coast.
      And live shows, Sam A. I'd love to do a Broadway show That's on my bucket list.
      Got to dream this into reality, right?!

      Gabby xo

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  35. Hi gabby we defo have to make this a reality., I get emotional just imagining coming face to face with you gorgeous ladies xxx

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    1. I'll be working on it. Let's get through the holidays while the idea percolates. And then I'll be collecting e-mails for a list and doing some planning. I'm also still working on the Betrayed Wives Club "survival guide". Coming in 2018.

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  36. Ex and I have been talking more lately. I just hope this is transition into a healtier post-marital co-parenting relationship, and not the beginning of another roller coaster ride. But there are still many unresolved issues.
    He says he’s broke. He’s been out of work for months, and supposedly trying to put together a small business loan. But he’s a chronic liar, so there’s just no telling. He has paid the child support I ask each month. He says he is now working a part-time job, he’s sold everything he could sell, and he’s tapped out.
    So I told him to skip the rest of this month. I told him we would play December by ear. But by January, I said, he needed to have full-time work.
    Yes, I know. I’m a sucker. I fully realize that. We’ll see how it goes.
    Last night we had a long texting conversation. He said all the right things, about how sorry he was, how badly he had screwed up. He talked about how strong I am, how he admires and will always love me. He said he realized I was the best friend he had ever had. He said that he had never felt he was good enough, never measured up. He had responded to the admiration of the OW, and felt like a hero. He wanted to rebuild with me, but couldn’t stop wanting to “save” her.
    I told him that I’m not perfect. I never expected him to be. I told him that I am good and decent and selfish and messy and flawed. I also told him that, after everything that has happened, i will protect myself from him. That means distancing myself, if and when necessary.
    Friends, I heard both honesty and manipulation in his words. I think he does care. I think he has loved me and hated me. I think he tells a truth he wants to believe. And I think he knows how to make a woman feel admired and confident - and therefore easier to manipulate. I think he still wants my validation. I hurt for him, and I take everything with a grain of salt. I will not forget the things he has said and done. I will not trust him.
    I hear through my kids that he’s been having problems with his parents, Lord love them. His mother refuses to meet the skank, and cries whenever it is broached. On the other hand, when she heard (from him of course) that I was dating, she took the opportunity to tell me that she’s fine with it and wants me to be happy.
    Her loyalty moved me to tears and restored some of my faith in human nature. But for her sake, I am distressed. She needs to meet the damned skank and she needs to be told she has a grandson who is almost a year old.
    We started putting up Christmas decorations today, and something about it opened the floodgates for my 14-year-old daughter. She started to open up and share things she’s been keeping inside for months. She talked openly about her dad and the skank. She talked about her love for her brother and the skank’s children. She confirmed that the skank has been kind to her, and that negative things are never said about me. She shared a lot. I shared with her, within limits. I want her to understand my feelings, but I do not want them to be a burden on her. I validated, again, her affection for the children. I told her she never has to pick sides.. A lot more was said; it was a really good talk.
    I am incredibly blessed.

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    1. Phoenix, your children are incredibly blessed to have you as well. So incredibly blessed. The way you described being open with your daughter but not having your feelings be a burden to her brought me to tears. How incredibly strong and unselfish of you. Too many, myself included, lay that burden on the kids in what is really nothing more than an attempt to try and make them pick sides in order to hurt the man who lied to us all and for not doing as we wanted him to do. For you to be able to separate that but still talk to your children openly is really an amazing thing.

      I'm in awe of you and will do my best going forward to try and take this same approach. It's such a confusing time for the kids who are unwillingly involved in these situations - the mixed emotions from feeling disloyal because they are being told they must hate someone when in fact they are finding likable qualities within that same person. I applaud your great relationship with your daughter. It's obvious your daughter adores you (heck, your 14 year old will even talk to you - now that's something!! My teens are, well let's just say moody!) but when she gets older and wiser in life, she is going to be awestruck by just how wonderful of a mother you have been to her and what a strong woman you truly are.

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    2. Your message means so much to me. Thank you. I spend so much time worrying if I do what is best for them. I guess we all do.
      I’ve made lots of mistakes, I know, and I struggle often about where to draw the line when it comes to sharing my feelings. I can’t hide them completely; they are too strong. And plus, my kids can tell and they feel like I am keeping things from them. On the other hand, though, I know I am the mom, and it is up to me to protect their childhood from unnecessary pain and conflict. You are so right, it is a very confusing time for them and it is not their doing.
      When I screw up - and I do - I tell them that moms and dads also get very, very hurt and angry at times like these, and we say the wrong things, selfish things. But what we really want, more than anything else, is what is best for them, because we love them more than anything in the world. And at the end of the day, they can count on that.
      This divorce has put up some walls between me and my girls. But it has also brought us closer. And the other day, some of those walls came down. Thank God! They need to know I’m strong enough to handle it. Sometimes I am, and sometimes I’m faking. But we will get there. So will you.

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    3. Hi Phoenix, you don't need me to tell you to watch out for yourself. You are already looking at him with wide open eyes.
      About the money thing, he has chosen to support two households. That's on him. You have an agreement. It may not come to it, but beware of even the smallest verbal change agreed to by you that could be used against you in the future. I know you don't want to fight with him. I get it. I would not want to haggle or wrangle with my ex over the money either, but that's why the agreement is in place. Don't give up ground and trust him to give it back to you later. Its a slippery slope. But I also get that he may be honest with you about the money because in the end it is about the kids. As effed up as he is, I don't believe my ex would screw me about the money. Because in the end, it is the kids he'd be screwing, not just me.
      That whole white night, "saving" someone thing is soooo screwed. Its dis-empowering to the person being "saved" , it creates co-dependencies. Its wrong on so many levels. And in the end the person doing the saving is really trying to save themselves. Its a distraction from the real and painful work they need to be doing. Sigh. It makes me tired.
      Your mother in law sounds amazing. I wish I had just one adult female role model in my life who wasn't a complete shitshow. I'm glad she took the time to communicate her support to you.
      And Phoenix, you are an amazing mom. Validating her feelings is so xcritical. It means that she knows that no matter what, she belongs with you. No mater where her life takes her, she has a place with you. I think it is so critical for self esteem and growth and being brave enough to go after good things in life. Its a tremendous gift you give her.
      Hugs, SS1

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    4. Phoenix,
      I'm late to this conversation but let me add my voice to the chorus of admiration for your kindness and your integrity. But, as some have noted, for your own sake, stop taking responsibility for his problems. He made choices. Let him own them. Don't protect him from the consequences. Don't put yourself in the role of his mother/protector and him in the role of errant boy. He's a man. He needs to act like one.
      And I love your daughter. I'm so glad she felt safe enough to talk to you and so glad that you were able to be open to that, even though it hurt. That you gave her permission to have her feelings and not be responsible for yours. She sounds like a chip off the old mom's block.

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    5. Phoenix, I wonder how the skank would react if she read those texts he is sending you...

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  37. Phoenix, you remind me of my mum - never saying a bad word about her x, my father when we were young. Now we are older, we can't stand my fathers ow, and don't have much time for my father either. Phoenix, you have amazing strength to have such a generous kind heart in your situation.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  38. Love you my brave Phoenix .. xxx

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  39. Phoenix, you rock and you remind me so much of my mother. My father was an alcoholic and his addiction caused much pain and suffering in our family not only for my mother but for my siblings and I as we grew up. So many awful memories however when I sobbed and lashed out against my father, my mother always said something to the effect of, "Your father has a sickness. I believe he loves us and he loves me but he is not strong enough to overcome the sickness. Don't take it personal. This is his problem." That was back in the 1960's when life was so hard for a single mother. We had no car. She walked through bitter New England winters to and from her job in a shoe shop to support us. She was strong. Early on in my individual therapy I recognized that my mother's perspective and strength helped me to move through life but it took my own husband's porn/sex addiction to really understand the depths of my mother's love for me and my younger sibs. I was able to draw on that strength to get through each difficult day early on and I know she is still with me. Every time I see a Northern Cardinal in the yard I say, "Hi Ma!" I know her spirit is with me and she is checking in to see how I am doing with this life I have. I have no doubt that your girls will also look back on how you handled yourself with the crap you were served and admire you and love you for your strength. It is okay to show emotion and you will all be better for this down the road. Sometimes it takes decades to really know. Unfortunately, my mother died in 1990 so I only have the cardinals to talk to and thank. Much love to you.

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  40. Oh my goodness Phoenix, you have done so well and raised such a great child--can you imagine the conflict of having a baby brother who has had such a negative impact on her own family life, and yet, already, she knows it's not his fault and she loves him. that moved me to tears, because It must have been hard for you to listen to on some level, but it's huge, it's a huge compliment to you, her honesty. Whew.

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  41. ON the subject of a get together, yes, lets do this! Maybe once Elle knows where everyone is from (i know I can "hear" england, scotland and maybe Ireland in some of the writing) and the only thing close to the west coast is Hawaii-and a million hours from anywhere other than the west coast-the east coast might be a great idea with enough time to plan. 5 hours from the west coast and 7 hours from europe, that just about splits the difference and there are non stops from most everywhere to NYC. I've stayed at some places in great locations for pretty great prices in NYC, but I am up for anywhere. Let's just do this! Is fall 2018 reasonable? I am so in!!

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  42. Steam,yes 2018 is good for me. I’m in England so would love to cross over to you guys : ) xxx

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  43. I'm so freaking tired. I am really grieving. So sad about so much. Tired of being sick too. I know this is part of why I am low. I have been getting outside anyway. And doing things that are good for me, but also really needing to curl up and feel small.
    The divorce being final has really hit me in the softest of my soft spots. Why am I not enough for anyone in my life? Which is false. It's a lie, but its this lingering emotional hangover (all puns intended) from my mother's alcoholism.
    I tried to be a good wife. I probably was. But sometimes that's not enough. Its not about that. And I've lost my stories or at least my partner, the co-rememberer (from Brene Brown) of my stories. And I also know this is happening for my kids too. Our collective shared stories don't belong anywhere now. Wer are not all four of us anymore. There's an empty spot.
    And I think I've mentioned that I am angry and resentful about economics. Still. Afraid.
    I'm spending too much time in the past and the future right now. I need to get back to focusing on what I have. But I also think I need to grieve just a bit more for a bit. And let myself be tired. And let the dishes pile up. And worry about the laundry tomorrow.
    I don't even feel like decorating for Christmas. I will. But not today.
    Maybe I will sit on my cushion and meditate a little. Snuggle with the dogs. Draw a little. Or read. Or stare at the sun as it goes down. I'm tired of being tired. I'm tired of divorce. I'm tired of being a grown up without a mom to support me. Sulky...

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    1. Everything you write is screaming that you want to just rest. So please SS1, rest. Let the dishes pile up. Cuddle with your dogs. Watch a sunset. Feel shitty. Write down everything you're thinking -- the "why wasn't I enough", the "I tried so bloody hard".
      Rest.
      It won't take long, I suspect, before you'll be ready to stand back up. The truth that of course you were "enough", you've always been enough, will feel true again. You'll remember that sometimes people disappoint us but it's not a reflection of us. You'll be making new stories with your children and this chapter will be a part of your longer story of your evolving family that will include so many other chapters. The reality of now doesn't wipe out old stories.
      I think you're being hard on yourself. I think you're expecting too much.
      Rest, SS1.

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    2. Thanks Elle, I cried when i read your post. I think I needed permission to loosen my grip and sit still. And the reminder that I already have permission and all of it. Thank you so much.

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    3. SS1, I suspect, like so many of the women here, that you're one of those SUPER-capable people who feels intensely uncomfortable when you come face to face with the idea that there are things you can't control and that, sometimes, the sheer force of your will isn't enough to make things move or to make people change. And you have to fight that urge to keep fighting, to make yourself stronger, to forge through. The best thing in the world for you right now is to let yourself feel sad. Challenge the dramatic bullshit you're telling yourself...but still, let yourself be sad. Let yourself be fucking exhausted without chastising yourself. Let yourself wish things were different without blaming yourself for why they aren't or why you can't be satisfied or blah blah blah. Again, rest. It's so hard for so many of us. Including me.

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    4. Elle. Your words came at the right time for me too, as I have been feeling a bit low as well.
      SS1 I hear your every word.

      My kick in the gut came 2 days ago after I had been out for a run, so my day started well, then l listened to a pod cast on couples who were seeking counselling because they BOTH wanted to, and they were BOTH working on making their relationship better - and I thought what did I get? A husband who felt me and our kids were not worth enough to fight for, to do the hard work for. This realisation rears it's ugly head every so often and shuts me down when it appears.
      I know it's ok to feel sad and ride all this out, but I thought the further I get away from all this, the better I would be! And despite all I am doing to distract myself from h, I too SS1 am tired of it all. It pisses me off to have these feelings when STBX is swanning around living his fuck boy life without a care in the world.
      SS1. I hope you feel better soon. Sending you hugs
      Gabby xo

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  44. Ss1 ditto to what Elle said, you got this my love, do whatever you need. It took me 3 months after losing my mum to feel ‘normal’ or like me again I’d worked my way through the grief without even knowing it. I felt all the feelings you are feeling now ss1. Don’t be too hard on yourself give yourself as much time as you need. We’re here for you when you need to share .. lots of love xxx

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  45. Did anyone listen to one of Ester Perells podcast that was recently suggested here? When she said (along the lines) "we look up to sporting heroes, celebrities etc, but what relationship/marriages do we look up to?"
    That hit home for me? Out of all the people/marriages I know, I can only think of 2. Only 2 relationships where they are a team. What a sad society we live in where it seems people put more effort in being liked and respected by strangers than working on being liked and respected in our most intimate relationships.
    That's my STBX. More interested in being liked by everyone else, he never worked on us - me and him and our children. So sad.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  46. Hey, sweet friends. Life is a speeding train right now, but I am so glad I took time to come back here and “see” you.
    Your words of affirmation are such a balm. Gabby and Beach Girl, comparing my action to those of your mothers was not only the ultimate compliment, it strengthened me in my conviction that I CAN be the mother I want to be, the mother they need.
    I would love to get together, but it may or may not be feasible for me, financially or time-wise. As a teacher, I have the most freedom in the summer, but if we plan ahead, I will certainly try to find a way to get myself to where y’all are at whatever time of year we work out.
    SS1, my friend, it is so hard. Those negative feelings and voices attack us at our weakest, even when we know, we KNOW that they are whispering lies. Yes, please, take time, coddle yourself, let yourself rest and grieve, and make no apologies. Last summer, a year after the divorce was final, I found myself living with that deep sadness AGAIN. I just about decided I was a hopeless cause, always destined to be sad, and a little crazy. But, as always, the fog eventually lifted. As I would say in my teens, when I was first learning to deal with depression: “What goes down must come up.” The summer was rough. The fall has been better. It’s such a journey.
    But you reach turning points. There are mile markers. Did I tell y’all about the night - I don’t remember if I did - The night that I was over at my friend’s house, and I knew that my kids were with him at the skank’s house. And it was 11 o’clock, and I started think they were actually going to spend the night there. And the pain was heavy and harsh. And I went to the bathroom, and sat on the floor, and cried.
    And then I had a moment. I thought all the times in the last two years I had ended up on the bathroom floor. All the cumulative time I have spent, because of them, crying on the bathroom floor. And my tears just dried up. And I said to myself: “This is the last time, the very last time I will cry on the bathroom floor because of them.” I guess I was finally ready for that moment. And I got up, and went and watched a movie with my friend.
    Yesterday was the baby’s first birthday. My kids made posts on Instagram about how much they love him. And it was a dull ache, but at the end of the day, I was pleasantly surprised look back and realize that it really had not been as difficult or painful as I had anticipated. I remember this time last year, when he was born, and how much I hurt. And it feels so good feel better.
    I pray for that for all my sweet, precious, warrior friends. To just feel better.
    Gabby, maybe one day we will find a person who is willing to work, to love, to be on our team
    Or maybe we will be happy and complete on our own. At least we have that option. Most of our betrayers seem incapable of that.
    This won’t mean anything unless you love “Hamilton” like I do. But it runs through my mind constantly, so I will throw it out there:
    “Hercules Mulligan, I need no introduction.
    When you knock me down, I get the f—- back up again!”

    Hugs!
    Phoenix

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    1. Phoenix,
      You are so amazing. I'm in awe at your courage and your grace, in the face of so much that's hurtful. I'm glad you feel "better". And I've no doubt that "better" will get even better.

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    2. Hi Phoenix. I also hope too that I will always be happy. My children will always come first, they bring me happiness. Not budging on that one.

      So I've had a few triggers lately - courtesy of STBX. He's been away a couple of times and hasn't bothered to call his "most precious things in the whole world", as he told them during our first separation. Yet. I'm seeing a different story. I see him behaving differently. His kids are not too important in his life!, as lately when he's away (with some whore, whoever it is) he hasn't bothered to call AT ALL!!. It just confirms to me how extremely selfish, self centered and horrible he is. Nothing has changed and nothing will as he's not wanting to change his arrogance. Geez I hate him.
      So. I know Phoenix how kind you are. Me. I'm over being kind and considerate to him, as I have been for over 30 years. My mum never said a bad word about my dad and do you know what? Even though we worked it out when we got older that he was not a nice person, I wish she had said how useless he was, made us aware of red flags etc. I suppose mum's from a different generation and that was her way of doing things, but for me. Enough. I've asked them if their father has called etc and when they say no, I will just let them know "so he can be away with his "friends" and find the time to be with them, but not find the time to call you?...
      He travels for work quite a bit so the kids have always been used to him not being around all the time, so they really don't seem to miss him. I have always been left with everything - with the kids and household chores etc. It just saddens me when he'd say "it's got nothing to do with the kids" but the kids have all said "how could he do this to us? It's got everything to do with us". They still have a relationship with him, but I can see in years it will become distant as he involves himself more into his demented world of sex and women friends and less with his own children. He brought this all upon himself. He's one messed up dude.

      A girlfriend who the two of us have just recently become good friends said years ago she had a bad relationship and when it ended she got into a rebound relationship. She said, some rebound relationships are good if you both go in knowing the history, and she said it worked for her, as her new partner built her confidence back up. They knew they weren't 100% right for each other for ever, but for then, it worked.
      Well there's always hope for me, Phoenix and anyone else out there, and SS1 is proof the new guy is great.

      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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    3. Phoenix... that damn bathroom floor used to feel like I was glued to it too. Soar high and find some me time on your break. The year was hard so but you made it! We all have ... keep stepping ever day. All we can do.

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  47. Phoenix your one hell of a girl, I wanna shout down my phone that i love your gutsy attitude.. your an absolute joy Phoenix so glad we are here together standing tall and side by side.. lots of love my dear xxxx

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  48. Gabby I think a change is as good as the rest, if your ready to take that step then why the hell not.. someone who can make you laugh, gives you compliments that’s exactly what you need right now someone for you, whether that’s a girl friend or guy friend. Don’t spend too much time fretting over the ‘stbx’ like you said the kids will work it out for themselves sooner or later. Of course it hurts to see him let your children down, that’s his downfall all you can do is be there for them when they need you.

    So gabby all that’s left for you to do is decide which dating site to check out lol there’s so many these days .. I’m kidding but no harm in checking them out is there??? I’ll be thinking of you gabby let us know how you get on .. big hugs xxx

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  49. Gabby and friends. My neighbor went on one of the dating sites and met a few guys. Her divorce in her 60's was because her physician husband was a serial cheater. She had fun, was pretty upfront and selective and now she is remarried to the most wonderful and amazing guy. They both have grown kids and some grown grand kids too. Oh, did I mention that they are both in their 80's and recently celebrated 5 years together? Life is like a box of chocolates. You really don't know what you are going to get until you bite into one.

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    1. Sam A and Beach Girl
      LOL. YUUUKKKK
      Honestly, the thought of dating again repulses me (the sex especially.It'd have to be just a companion)...at this present moment anyway. I am not looking for anyone, and isn't that when you usually find someone??
      Sam A - I did try to look at one of those dating sites, but chickened out when you had to enter all your details. I just wanted to see what was out there, but felt like it was such a meat market with all these questions. I think I'll stick to the old fashioned way of meeting someone face to face. Part of me would love to meet someone just to shove it up the x and say "you didn't want me, but this guy does". Oh well when the time's right things will happen. At the moment I'm enjoying time with the kids and my girlfriends.
      Beach Girl - I do love a good love story with a happy ending.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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  50. Aww that’s a lovely story beach girl, xx

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  51. SS1
    How are YOU?
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  52. Hi, y’all. Gabby, it is so frustrating to hear about your situation. Your kids are so lucky to have you, strong and loving and completely on their side. Sometimes it’s hard to believe that we believed in these men. That we gave them so much of ourselves, so much of our lives and trust and intimacy.
    I chuckled when I read what you said about dating sites. The first time I tried it, I felt exactly the same way. It felt… Cheapening. Like putting myself on display. But I did meet a really sweet man. We are not dating anymore, but we are good friends. He held my hand through some very hard times this year.
    So I went back on the dating site. Collected a couple of funny stories. Went on a couple of dates. Hoping to go on more once the craziness of Christmas is over. I just want to have some fun. I’ve been out with an accountant/musician who wants to sing and play music with me. I’ve been out with a guy who works the local university. I’ve had phone chats with a guy who lives about two hours away and has kids my age. His wife cheated, so that gave us something to talk about! I am also chatting online with a writer and a cop. Of course, I try to observe extreme safety rules, and I take nothing at face value. My kids are on to me, but they and my mom and my brother are the only ones who know I do online dating. I don’t know if anything serious will come of any of it, but I’m not ready for serious anyway. And it can be a fun distraction.
    I went through a period of time when I didn’t want to date or even think about dating. Even now, I think it would take an act of God to get me to marry again. I mean literally, God would have to come down from on high, point at somebody, and say: “marry him.“
    Even then, I would argue.
    Work/choir/Christmas plays stress is finally over. My daughter is having ligament reconstruction surgery on her knee Friday. I am worried about that, but aside from that I am looking forward to a relaxing holiday.
    Sam, I love you! You are always so positive and supportive. How are you? Beach Girl, SS, Gabby, Wounded, Steam, Elle... how is EVERYONE, going into the holidays?

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    1. Phoenix,
      It's always wonderful to read your words. You make me laugh and nod in recognition. An old friend of mine, long divorced, said to me once that none of the women she knows have any desire to remarry -- through many of the men her age do. "Who wants to take care of some old guy? We're having the time of our lives finally not taking care of people."
      I think we women are exhausted. Even the women I know who aren't dealing with infidelity are exhausted. This has been one hell of a year for women feeling outraged. But sustained outrage is exhausting. The upside? I think a whole lot of us are finding our backbones and our voices.

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    2. Hi Phoenix and friends. I'm actually doing pretty well. I had one very short lived meltdown Monday. The early morning started off with another prostitution sting in my city which of course made me think about the idiot I married who probably thanks his lucky starts every day he never got busted for transactional sex. I had a lot to do shopping and lunch with my sister before my annual doctor appointment. Well that went well however after I got dressed he looked at me and told me that he heard a loud murmur and wanted me to have some additional diagnostic testing. He then asked me about stress. "Have you experienced much stress in the past few years? You've lost a lot of weight and your blood work is great so I'm wondering if something else is going on with your heart." I just said, "yes, I've had some stress and I'm working through it". (We had our STD tests and HIV tests done at my husband's providers office but I'm sure the results are in my record but I've not shared about why I had them.) Anyway, hubby and I went for a walk Wed after I'd had a couple of days trying to bring myself out of the funk so I just talked to him and told him how flooded I felt emotionally over his past, etc. I cried and told him about my doctor visit and he got worried. I told him, "You know, in the past, when things got out of your control you went directly to porn and whores so if you can't keep yourself in control over this medical thing with my heart we might as well just split up now because I do not want to be wondering how you are dealing with my health stressors." Yesterday he told me he had thought a lot about that and looked up the condition my doctor thinks I have. He assured me that he would not and would never go back. It does feel to me that he is sincere and honest and mindful. I still want to be here. I am beginning to trust him more. I'd hate to think about my reaction if he betrays me again. In the mean time I am enjoying being back in the far northwest cold for another week before heading back to the desert. Wishing you all peace and joy.

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  53. Love you too Phoenix, thank you for your kind words. I’m ok ive just come back from a short trip with my children, we had the best time. I was sat by the pool one day soaking up the sun thinking to myself how content I felt in that moment I had my kids with me and I felt safe. I could be anywhere in the world as long as I have my kids by my side I’m good : ). What will I do when they’ve grown up and left me lol, I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.

    On our plane journey home I had a melt down it was my first holiday since Mum passed away and It hit me that I wasn’t going to see her upon my return, I cried and cried and wondered why I needed to come back to the uk now both my parents had passed, got me thinking maybe I could relocate lol just a thought . Any ideas where would be a good place?? I have so many friends here insi many different countries maybe someone could guide me. My h picked us up from the airport, I didn’t miss him at all whilst being away, well maybe just the sex but all I know is that it feels rubbish being back in the cold, there’s def something to be said about the warm weather and your mood.. oh yeah and Spanish men : ) I want one or two lol..

    I’ll be Thinking of all my lovely ladies over this Christmas period, whatever your plans please remember to stop and pause and remember just how important and beautiful you are. Lots of love ladies xxx

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    1. Sam A
      Glad you can find peace with your kids and have a relaxing holiday with them. Well deserved.
      I'm so sorry you are having to have this Christmas without your mum. You are in my thoughts Sam. xxxx
      When your kids grow up? I'll be looking for a travelling buddy - my bucket list is growing.
      I always find something good in the places I travel, and I too have friends in lots of different places around the world - but I do love coming home - I'm a home body.
      You are always welcome here Sam A.

      I too will be thinking of all my friends here and wishing everyone health, happiness and heaps of love for Christmas and the New Year. Keep your chin up ladies.
      SS1 - Merry Christmas.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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  54. Thank you gabby, merry Christmas to you and your family.. hugs xxx

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  55. Sam, I recognize that feeling of contentment. It’s a wonderful thing! My heart breaks for you, though, facing this season without your mother. You are in my thoughts, and I wish I could hug you and give you back to you some of the unceasing love and support that you give to others.
    I’d invite you down here to the Heart of Dixie - warm weather aplenty - but the politics would probably drive you crazy. Although we did manage NOT to elect a bigoted senator who thinks it’s okay to chase teenagers. Thank the Lord for small mercies.
    Maybe when our kids are grown we’ll have a traveling club and take trips together. Whee!!!
    Elle? Thank you for your words of affirmation. There are few people I respect as much as I respect you, so your approbation always makes me happy. It has indeed been an uncomfortable and remarkable year. My daughters roll their eyes at all the news stories, but I tell them that we are hopefully, changing the world for them.
    Health, happiness, and love to you too, Gabby! Merry Christmas!

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  56. I love the idea of a ‘travelling club’ Phoenix sounds like a plan : ). Xx

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  57. Hey everyone, I'm popping up to say hi and let you all know I am still breathing. December has been an em effer of a month. Despite me giving myself permission to do less (my tree is up but not decorated yet) there has been just more than I can handle. Work has been insane. I just agreed to be a co - director of community outreach for a volunteer group I work with for 2018. I'm not totally sure how that happened, lol. And there has been travel to see family with ensuing drama. I'm feeling resentful and not taken care of and that means I need to take a hard look in the mirror because the only person responsible for that is me.
    Just so freaking tired. And at the same time, covering difficult historical terrain as I approach Jan 1 which is my dday. Last year, the holidays were not so much of a trigger. I think I was, in some ways, insulated by shock (although separated in August, my ex finally had the balls to say he wanted a divorce around Thanksgiving just about a year after his affair got physical). But this time of year, which used to be so much fun for me, despite all the work, has kind of had the joy sucked out of it. I'm doing a lot of sitting with my lowness and maybe a bit too much feeling sorry for myself vs taking care of myself.
    I'm plugging along. Im reading and I promise I will get back to writing and responding. You all mean so much to me and here are times I'm not sure how I would have gotten through without the support and empathy I get here, the feeling that others understand and that I belong.
    I'm on board for travel club. Or heading on down to Dixie to warm up. I am over this northeast coast US winter already.
    Most of all, I wish you happiness, health, safety and peace at this season.
    XOXO SS1

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    1. Glad to hear your voice SS1. Glad you're "plugging along". This time of year can be tough even when things are good. The expectation, especially, that we "should" feel anything at any given time just because the calendar tells us so is a recipe for disappointment. We all need to remember that emotions don't follow a calendar. They come and they go. And we can watch them without buying whatever our emotions are selling on any given day.
      Hang in there SS1. You're doing better than you realize, I think.
      And stay tuned. I promise in the new year I'm going to make putting together a get-together an absolute priority.

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  58. great to hear from you ss1, I’ve missed you!!! rest and recooperate my lovely friend you’ve had a tough old year. Lots of love coming your way xx

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  59. Oh yeah ss1 one more thing I know exactly why you got that post of co director because your bloody brilliant at being you, so caring and compassionate you will bring so much experience and knowledge to the post xx

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  60. Christmas has come and gone and I really didn't feel like celebrating. Of course I did for the kids, and the day was beautiful with them, but there was an emptiness there, I suppose as was to be expected. I just feel so drained emotionally as I know I'll never get answers, but I just can't understand and get my head around how he's fucked up our lives and has no care about us and has moved on so quickly.
    STBX only briefly saw his kids Christmas Day.
    He really is living up his freedom with whoring ways.
    There is a new whore. He was too keen to get to see her, rather than be with his kids!
    He overspent with the kids.
    I suppose he has to try and make up for being a shitty parent, right? Arse hole. Especially when he told me I have to watch my spending (finances are not finalised yet)!!! but he's certainly not watching his, so, I hit the stores boxing day and bought some things I needed for ME.

    Wishing you all much love and strength during this time of the year.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. I'm sorry this has been such a tough Christmas for you. Kudos to you for making it special for your kids.
      And please...don't for a second think he's "moved on". Moving on is easy when you're capable of compartmentalizing any pain and absolving yourself of any responsibility -- which is undoubtedly what he's done. He clearly hasn't learned a thing. Distract himself with a new shiny object. And the day will come (or maybe it never will) when he wonders why he feels so empty.
      In the meantime, you will have healed yourself, finally and truly rid yourself of any residual emotion about him except pity, and moved on with a life that's authentic and rich and full of people who deserve you.

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    2. Great advice from Elle Gabby, I doubt you will ever get your head round your stbx I mean the greatest shrink in the world would struggle with some of these men. The thing is gabby don’t try to understand, continue to focus on you it maybe a good idea to have some counselling sessions to help you move forward. I mean do you really think this guy is having the time of his life??? I don’t Gabby I think he’s as lonely and miserable as sin. I agree with Elle on the fact that you will only ever feel pity for this man. I pity him!!

      You made it through Christmas Gabby as best as you could, Know that I am thinking of you and your children sending you all big warm hugs.. lots of love xxx

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    3. Thanks Elle
      That's what makes me shake my head. He hasn't learned a thing.
      His original whore is no longer in the picture, and she was "the one" yet where is she now? He has got himself a new shiny object, you're right there. I know he'll have moments of thinking about us, but he's on his own path of destruction as he searches for my replacement. And it's all with younger, fake, high maintenance bitches. - complete opposite to me. He wont ever find another me, and that's his loss.
      It's so true when they say "cheaters are searching for something that's lacking in themselves", and until he realises this (if ever) he will always be a selfish, self centered, narcissist.
      Sam A - I know I'll never get answers, it's just how I function. I need to understand how things work - so this is what's keeping me stuck. It's not a control thing I have, I don't know what it is, it's a bit like when the kids are away on camp etc, I need to see where they are going, what it looks like - then I'm ok. It's frustrating when I stop and really think about it, so to distract myself, I do other things - that's all I can do for the moment.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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  61. Gabby and SS - damn right. Take care of YOU. You too, Sam.

    Maybe we will make the Travel Club a reality some day. Or y’all can come on down to Orange Beach, AL. I’ve got access to a condo there. We can lie in the sand all morning, nap in the afternoon, sip wine at sunset while looking at the ocean, and then head over to the Flora-Bama to party all night. :-)
    Christmas was a lot rougher than I expected. My daughter had knee surgery three days before, which was stressful enough. Then, the night of the 25th, while my mom was over opening presents, I fell apart. I was doing something on my younger daughter’s phone for her, and I spotted a text message she had sent her dad, about buying a present for the skank. I’d been kidding myself that they didn’t like her. The message indicated otherwise.
    My resulting feelings of depression were way out of proportion, and I didn’t shake them until today. I still feel fragile. And it infuriates me that those cheaters can still ruin my Christmas, through my precious kids. They are loving girls. They want to like her, for their dad’s sake and for their brother’s sake.
    I had talks with each this morning. I had to; they can tell when I’m upset, and it bothers them a lot when I won’t tell them why. I’m still trying to convey the message that they have done nothing wrong, that they should not feel guilty about liking anyone. That this situation is not of their making and that they do not have to choose. They are so like me, trying to make everyone happy.
    But I cannot hide my loathing for the skank, and I don’t want them to trust her. It’s hard to explain to them, without trashing their dad - who is the truly guilty one - but I did the best I could.
    I hate being unable to control my emotions. I have been way too kind to that man recently. I want my child support and I want him to quit whining to me about how alone and miserable he is, while he keeps exposing my kids to that worthless skank. I’m tired of his excuses and lies.
    Ok. Done. Sorry.
    Anyway, Merry Christmas, my sweet warrior sisters! I think we should start thinking about some seriously badass New Year’s Resolutions.
    Love you!

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    1. Dear dear Phoenix,
      Your daughters are open-hearted wonderful girls and your challenge is to help them learn to set their own boundaries around what they genuinely want to do (with no strings attached) and what they're doing to keep the peace or make others happy. It's such a tough line to walk and our girls, in particular, struggle (in part, of course, because their moms struggle).
      And yay to you for being honest. Kids know when something's not right and when adults tell them things are fine when they KNOW they're not, they learn to override their intuition.
      And Phoenix, none of us can control our emotions. Not a single person on the planet. What we can do is control is behaviour. And you're doing that beautifully. So feel what you feel. And know that it won't last. And know also that it's teaching you something. You've already figured out that you're being too kind to him. So...you can change that. You can refuse to listen to his self-pity. Seriously...he's whining to YOU? That's so unbelievably self-centred. How the HELL does he think YOU feel?
      And yes, we will figure out a get-together. My challenge is going to be accepting that I can't please everyone who wants to join us. It will be awful to know that some dates/locations won't work for everyone. But I'll do my best. Your condo actually sounds awesome. Lying in the sand sounds even better.

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  62. Phoenix,
    I’ve just googled orange beach. I’m on my way!! Lol.
    I’m so sorry for all you are going through, it doesn’t help that we have so many expectations for Christmas when I’m reality that just doesn’t happen. You, i and many others here got through the day as best as we could and that’s good enough.
    I feel blessed to be here with you guys, I hurt for all the women out there who haven’t got what we have here. I raise a glass to you all .. love and peace always xxx

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  63. Hi Phoenix
    I hope your daughter is ok after her surgery.
    I'm sorry you're going through difficult times. We can be strong for so many days, then one day fall apart. That's ok Phoenix. Take a break and time out for you when this happens.
    As for the X - yes, you, me and plenty others have been way too kind to our cheating husbands. You have such a generous kind heart, it's about time good things happen to you. Good vibes sending your way. xx
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

    PS - Yes to the travel club. Once the kids are old enough, it could be our retirement plan.
    But I must say, my beautiful kids want to travel with me when they're older. How sweet is that? I also must say - they know exactly what their father is like, so I'm glad they can recognise someone who is full of it -sad that it's their father - but glad they can see red flags as they come from people we love the most., and I over heard them all chat the other day about him and who we think his new whore is as they have heard their father and her talk and they made me laugh and smile. The support they give me is a blessing, the laughs they give me as they bag the new whore is priceless!
    Gabby xo

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  64. Phoenix, you are allowed to feel all those feelings. Your ex? Ummm, he is not allowed to make ANY requests, demands, etc of you regarding the mess he created for himself and everyone around him. I'm with Elle. Tell him he has a new skank to whine to cause your ears are closed. CLOSED. As for your girls, they sound like loving, kind and thoughtful people, you know? The kind you want to raise up? It is probably easier for them to show some loving kindness in the face of adversity and keep the peace all around. I also looked up Orange Beach and boy am I ready for that as I watch the snow fall down. Hoping my flight is on time at 6AM to take me back to the desert. I filled my heart with grand kids for the past two weeks. Christmas was as good as it could be with all the chaos of constant kids from 11 to infant plus their parents and a couple of dogs. Hubby and I are doing OK. January is our anniversary month which I'll likely ignore as I have the past two years. It's OK. I'm still good with where I am at the moment. I'm so thankful for all of you, my secret sisters. Sending a virtual hug all around the world.

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  65. Don't you wish sometimes you could just run a way from all this shit?
    Why wasn't I good enough for my husband. I gave him my everything, my heart, my mind, my body for him and and to have his children.
    Gabby

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    1. Gabby, you were good enough, are still good enough. The issues are his. It’s unfortunate he chooses not to see what he’s losing. I’ve asked myself the same questions and now I try to reframe it and realize that my husband was terribly broken to risk the things he did. It wasn’t ever about me, but believing that has been (sometimes still is) hard to acknowledge.
      I watched a video on Facebook the other day about why people don’t apologize. Part of what was said was that many people don’t apologize because they are ashamed. I imagine for the unfaithful that’s why recovery and attempting to heal a relationship must be hard. To get there, they have to work through their own shame. Others may find it easier to continue to avoid it. But what an awful way to live.
      Hugs, Gabby! ❤️

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    2. Gabby,
      You have always been everything enough. I suspect that's an old message for you. And I'd urge you to ask yourself when you first got that message -- that you weren't _______ enough. Smart enough, thin enough, pretty enough, popular enough, sexy enough.... So many of us get those messages and they stick with us. And then when something happens, we think "aha! I knew it. I'm not _______ enough." When the truth is that he wasn't emotionally healthy enough for a mature relationship. You don't treat people the way he treated you if you're an emotionally healthy person. You simply don't.
      So consider where you first got that message. And then challenge it. Because it's not true. And it's holding you back.

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    3. Gabby
      Yes it would be wonderful to just run away from this shit! My h tried desperately for the first two years but of course I had to get past her interference and then begin to heal us/me. That said my h has learned to apologize for the affair for being insensitive for his total lack of morals and decency! He apologizes over and over! Does it keep me from triggering? Not always but if he’s paying attention to the situation he can and does help lessen the impact! Just know I know how hard this is even if you choose to stay with the asshole or kick his ass to the curb! May 2018 bring peace to us all!

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  66. Oh, Gabby...
    We were too good for them. Our minds know that. Our hearts...not so much.
    We make so much progress, and then we backslide, because we invested so much into these men. We gave them our love and friendship, our trust, the treasure of our intimacy. We shared the most precious parts of our lives.
    And they weren’t worth it. So much time, so much effort, so much love -thrown away. Such a waste.
    Yes, I wish I could run away. I wish I could escape from this sordid, midlife crisis joke of a life that has been forced on me. Sometimes I feel so desperate, so alone.
    Logically, I know that he is the joke, not me. But sometimes I just get so depressed.
    A little less than two years ago, I told him: “I am nobody’s fucking victim.” Brave words, and I’ve been trying to wriggle free of that victim role ever since. Still working on it.

    You were out of his league, Gabby. He did not deserve you. So he traded treasure for trash.
    “Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn again and rend you.”
    Honey, we’re going to rise above this. May take a while, but we will. Don’t let the bastards grind you down. Hugs!!!

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  67. Gabby you know you have always been enough, his behaviour has nothing, nothing to do with you!!! I know it hurts my love, probably more so at this time of year when people post up their supposedly perfect family Christmas pics, but we know it’s fake we know things are never perfect. Gabby your having a tough time right now, I promise that things will get better you will feel better maybe tomorrow or the day after that but know it gets easier. I like you have had too much time to think over the holidays it’s not always a good thing the mind plays games so instead of focusing on him focus on you get yourself outside go for a walk, get a friend to go with you and grab a coffee whilst you walk and talk. We have snow here today so I’ve just been out making a snowman with my 4 year old it felt good.. Gabby I’m sorry your feeling down, we all havd your back here.. love you lots my dear friend .. take care xx

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  68. Hang in Gabby, I repeat what everyone has already said. You have always been enough. But sometimes things or events hit us right in our soft spot, those old stories we were taught about ourselves, that just aren't true. And you can know, in your mind, that it is not true, but your heart isn't buying it.
    But Gabby you are more than enough. You are amazing. And I was going to say and some day the right person will see that, but you know what? That right person is you. Like Elle says, the hurts that hurt the most right now are almost always about a much older hurt. The way out is to figure out why you believe you are not X enough and change that thinking. Because when you know in your bones that you are worthy and lovable, one fucked up, selfish asshole's opinion won't matter any more.
    I'm hugging you so tight right now!

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  69. Thanks Dandelion, Elle, Theresa, Phoenix, Sam A and SS1
    My kids are away with their dad. First time they've all been away from me, and I am missing them like crazy. He spent a fortune on them for Christmas. Buying their love, acceptance and approval I'm sure. Whilst I am happy for the kids - I'm annoyed as I am not overly materialistic, and we don't have the funds, and..... I never got that much spent on me, I knew we were on a budget - where's my worth??!!
    With my kids away, the loneliness hit me, the quietness in the house as I turned out the lights and went to bed. So this is what my life will be like when they leave and start their own life. I will be on my own. Whilst I enjoy my own company, to a certain extent, something that night hit me -this realisation of being alone in life, having no husband who'll have my back. Like none of us - I never intended my life to be doing it on my own, with so many years to go. I know I'm thinking ahead and waffling.
    But as STBX is going from our marriage, and cheating with one night stands in between, to first whore who was "the one" to now another new "the one" everything seems to work out for him in life. He wants to lead the single life...and he's doing it.
    He's NEVER been made to feel bad and accountable about his actions, his cheating and breaking up with me and the children. His family and friends say he doesn't want to talk about it, so no one does - so he gets away with what he did. I'm the only one who's called him out endlessly over the time about what he did. No one is fighting for me - this is where I get the thoughts of "why aren't I worth it, who's there for me, and I have no one like a committed husband who will be there for me in life."
    Whilst I am doing so many things to keep me busy, walks, work, volunteering, catching up with friends who have been wonderful, but at the end of the day, they go home to their husbands and families (and rightly so) and then I'm left on my own. I miss the intimate cuddles, the knowing I had a partner for life.
    (Slap me!!) Sometimes I wonder if I should have just turned a blind eye and pleaded ignorant to his ways just so I could keep the family together, to not have financial struggles. It's too late now, and the disrespect he had toward me and the kids was disgusting, but any way seems to be shit - Being cheated on and the knowing you've been cheated on, the lack of working on it from STBX, the being alone, the financial struggles, the broken family - it's all shit no matter what way it turns out.
    Even those who have their husbands remorseful and working on it struggle. The whole thing is shit. There is something really wrong and mentally unbalanced in these cheaters brains. The cheaters are just shit.
    I know I have good days, and some good days are really good days, but looking back, so many days I was faking it happy, just to make it through the day. Sitting at the bottom of my heart was such heaviness and such sadness. I'm kidding myself to say that's gone. It hasn't. Probably with the kids not here, I don't have to get through the day faking it as much and it's all surfacing again. Whilst the kids need to see how much pain this has caused me, I can't always be showing them my pain, as I don't want to drag them into it and down with me. Their childhood needs to be as happy as can be.
    Wishing you all happiness and love as we head into the new year.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. Gabby, so sorry for all this! I don’t know exactly how you feel but I have lots of empathy! It’s hard to miss it, but at the end of the day it’s knowing that your broken heart made the right choice and is healing slow. I stumbled on a good quote yesterday that I really like. “No one will remember what size the pants are you are wearing, but they will remember the way you walked in them.” You are living your life true to you and hold your head high as you walk away. You have worth, morals and wear some damn nice pants on that runway!

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  70. I am very fortunate, surrounded by people who care about me. And yet I realize often how alone I am. I was never one to form close relationships easily. And I basically spent half my life, and 90% of my effort, building a relationship with a person I thought was going to be my best friend forever - and I chose poorly. All those hours and days and years were for nothing.
    I look around, and I realize that with all the people I know, and all the social opportunities I have, there is a huge void in my life, and it is going to take me years to fill it, to build up close relationships. To develop something with a person, or people, outside my family, with whom I can open up and share myself.
    It’s New Year’s Eve, and I have friends to see. Married friends with a new baby. My kids, for the first time ever, are going their own way, attending a church party. It was a last minute thing, but they are going, and I‘m glad for them.
    But as I look ahead to New Year’s Eve, I am melancholy. Not because I don’t have a date. Because I don’t have a best friend.
    Like Gabby, I miss the cuddles. The intimacy. The bond. I put on a strong front, but I miss those things.
    Of course, I don’t really miss what I had. I miss what I thought I had.
    I think I have a long road ahead. I’m very good at getting along with people. But I still don’t bond easily. My ex and the skank have each other - clear evidence that things could be worse; I certainly wouldn’t want a relationship like that. But it’s going to be a long time, I think, before I really feel close to someone again.
    A long journey. But maybe not an endless one.
    Happy New Year, precious friends. I wish for strength, healing, and love for each of you.

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  71. Gabby and Phoenix, All I've got right now is a big old "me too." I have been missing the dumbass and our friendship and connection. Some parts of that were so, so good.It doesn't erase my discovery of how much was bad. But I still find myself missing that very unique connection we had. And the history of it in my head pops up everywhere. There are so many inside jokes and sayings and ideas and place, that sometimes the only escape is sleep.
    And I found myself feeling hollow every time I spot a ring on someone's finger. Nostalgic for feeling that place of togetherness or safety or protection or whatever else it conjures up.
    Just so mad at him and missing his stupid broken ass too.

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  72. Gabby, Phoenix And ss1, and I’m going to include myself in this one as I don’t/can’t see myself staying in my marriage for much longer. Ladies we have invested much of our lives with these men, had children together, the most precious gift two people can have so I’m not surprised your feeling like you do, I guess it’s a grieving process for all of us.
    I’ve had one of the worst christmases ever, 1st Christmas without my mum, didn’t see h Christmas or new year which looking back was probably a good thing as I couldn’t have coped with him as well as my sadness of missing my Mum. Some days I felt suffocated and needed to get out of the house, time away from my kids to just walk in the cold air, I felt angry that my h couldn’t be there for me in my difficult time, but then he never has been able to. I have to keep reminding myself that this man is not capable of giving me what I need and I can’t accept crumbs anymore, I know how to fend for myself and I’m not worried about being on my own so I have to be strong and have a frank conversation with this guy about the marriage. I hope you ladies feel better now the Christmas and new year period is over with, I know I am. Back to routine and getting on with sorting out the rest of our lives. Thinking of you all .. group hug!! Love you ladies lots xxx

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  73. One more thing Phoenix, Gabby, And ss1 you have made the decision to not settle for any more crumbs.. you want the whole loaf my dear friends.. much love xx

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  74. PS. I think I've put my finger on what I am missing. Its that feeling of belonging too someone, of being chosen, of someone liking me best out of all the other people in the world. I felt very unchosen after he cheated and that feeling is somehow doubled or impacted exponentially by divorce. Not feeling like I belong or am chosen by anyone. Been feeling like unclaimed freight lately...

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    1. SS1 - I told my therapist the same thing. I said I miss someone having my back. She said what would you do if something happened? I said I would rely on myself. She said nobody has ever had your back just you.

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  75. Yeah. Same. 23 years shared experiences and jokes and history. We miss our memory partners. And they miss us.

    He used to tell me all the time that he missed me. I never knew how to honestly respond. And he would get angry when I didn’t. He got more and more bitter that I wouldn’t talk to him much, that I was cool to him when he reached out to me. I could see him building up his grudge wall, nursing his hurt feelings and wounded pride. He never really thought I would stop loving him. He used to tell me last year, when he still thought he could get me back, that I would always be the person he loved most in the world. As recently as a month ago, he was still claiming that I was the one he really wanted most of all. It is depressing and painful to watch the slow death of his efforts. And I will never know how much of it he really meant, and how much of it was manipulation. But going back was never an option for me. Some broken things can be mended. Some are shattered beyond repair.
    Sometimes I really want to reach out to him. But then I remember all the deceptions, all the many betrayals, all the wounds he has inflicted just since last December.
    2017 was the Year of Death by a Thousand Cuts. Except, of course, I didn’t die. The cuts still sting. But they don’t kill.
    I miss the person I loved. But he’s not that person. He’s a man who thrives on intricate lies, and cannot account for his kids’ college money. A man who continues to urge my children to bond with a heartless skank, regardless of how painful it is for me. A man who posts pics of my kids and hers together on social media, as well as declarations of love and pics of the two of them kissing.
    In all our years of marriage, he never posted stuff like that about or with me. And he loves to declare his scorn for social media. So why does it he do this? I can only assume it is to piss off her ex (whom he hates) and to hurt me (whom he, at the very least, resents).
    I helped my kids buy presents for her kids this week, and bit my lip. My blood felt like bile.
    He has been very quiet the last week and a half. Not reacting to things that would normally upset him, not initiating any communication, and being almost overly polite. It should be a good thing, but it makes me nervous. I feel a sense of foreboding. I feel like he’s about to pull the rug out from under me in some way.
    Friends, sorry for the dark tone. I just need to get it out of my system. I will rally, I promise.

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    1. Phoenix, People that post things like this on social media do so to convince themselves and others that they have the perfect relationship, marriage, etc. This is an act of low self esteem and shame to gather likes and kudos that he’s a good person. Don’t let this bother you to the core. Turn it off and don’t look. It’s all a facade. He of all people knows you know the truth.

      There isn’t a reason in the world for anyone to profess their love on social media, as the only one that needs to know is the spouse or partner within arms length. These people tend to be the last to vocalize it to the actual person either. It’s all for show, with little depth.

      You don’t have to apologize for a dark tone. You have feelings and they are all valid. It’s hard when kids are in the middle AND you are in the middle. I’m sure they feel just as conflicted by being put on display. I’m sorry he has done this to you. I’m sure this perfect display on social media is short lived. He doesn’t really understand what Love is at this point. It sounds like he’s grasping onto something and uncertain of it himself.

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    2. Phoenix,
      You amaze me. Your capacity to keep your heart open, to sift through the wreckage with wide-open eyes, and to hold your children close while letting them live their lives awes me. So many here take inspiration from you. Watching you deal with the cuts that didn't kill you shows all of us that we too can survive this. Thank-you, always, for what you bring to this site and, undoubtedly, to your family.

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  76. Help!!!! My kids are away with the effing arse hole.
    We've been separated 4 months. Only 4 months!!
    AND his new whore is coming to see him..... and MY kids tomorrow. I am miles away from them. I have NO control over this. My kids don't want to meet her, only some of them know, he hasn't told all of them. What's he going to do ambush them so they have to meet her?
    I know I'm not thinking clearly - I can't!! Any advise as to how I should get my kids to handle this?
    I was a complete mess yesterday. He just keeps kicking me when I'm down. Can this just getting any worse? I've really had enough.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. Gabby, you have no control over what he does but you do have a lot of control over how you will respond to your kids when they return to your home. Think long and hard and as objectively as possibly about your response to your kids regarding their experience. They need to know that you have no control over what he does and what he plans to do when they are visiting him. Give them the power and words to articulate their feelings and try to keep your own emotions under control. When my kids were teens we had a deal. When they wanted to talk to me about something they knew would upset me or get a strong reaction, they warned me in advance that they wanted to talk to me and they did not want me to yell at them. This helped so much as it gave me the time I needed to do a few deep breaths and ground myself for whatever they wanted to tell me. Try this yourself before they get home. In any divorce/separation you cannot control, dictate or modify anything your ex does or plans to do. I watch this play out with my oldest son and his crazy ex wife. She continually does terrible things and he has learned over the years to not bite that hook. Expect your kids to be upset and expect to sit and listen to them. Do not expect to be able to fix it at all. It is what it is and they will hopefully learn, with your gentle guidance, how to handle themselves in the presence of their father and whichever whore of the moment he presents to them. Much love girlfriend. You might also be able to get some info online on how to deal age appropriately with each of your kids depending on what happens.

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  77. Gabby,
    Since you have no control over this, have faith that your kids will see all of this for what it is. You raised them to not be fooled and know right from wrong. Take the high road, it is hard as hell but they will be looking to you for support and guidance. I can't believe your H would put your kids through more trauma. I let my H see our son one time. What I heard, I knew I had to protect him. What I did was I did not let my son see his father anymore. I told him he could get a court order if he wanted to see him. I told my son, when you are 16 years if you want to go see your father, I won't stop you. Your kids will do fine but they will want to talk you about it so be calm, supportive for them even if it is long distance. My thoughts are with you. I know what it is like to be your kids.

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    1. Gabby
      I second what LLP says about the future questions! From experience, our mother tried to protect us from a very narcissistic immature sperm daddy. He was a very messed up man when he spent those twelve years with her. She left him and ten years later it was me that had to see this man because my mother was very controlling and abusive to her girls for those years. I had her tell me that I was just like my damn daddy when she was angry at me and I didn’t know what she meant. That said, I met him after he had grown up with my step mother and her children. I was 18 when I finally put both their truth together. I was able with many months/years of therapy to understand that I wasn’t just like either parent but was a mixture of both. I was able to separate those relationships because by then our children deserved to know and love all of their grand parents. It’s a tough road way back then up to now but we’re all responsible for what we leave our children with and between my two relationships Both my relationship with my step dad and stepmother and step siblings was easier and more loving than with my mother. She never could face her own truth! God bless all the little children caught up in the shitfest of immaturity of parents! Sending hugs!

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  78. Gabby, I hear you. I hear you.

    It’s hellish, I know. But you can get through this. I fell apart when they met her. I still do, sometimes.
    And the person doing this to us is the person we loved.
    It’s going to be okay. You will get through this. And the kids will get through this, because they are strong like you, and because they have you.

    My hope is that, by the time this message gets posted, the crisis will have passed. Hopefully he came to his senses and did not force this on them. It’s not right. It’s too soon. It’s not the time, and it’s not on their best interests. They shouldn’t have to deal with the divorce AND a new person. He is being unbelievably immature and selfish.

    But if it did happen, if he did force it, then you just be there for them. Get your hysterics out of your system privately - I know all about that - and show them as peaceful a demeanor as you can. They will likely take their cue from you. Tell them you don’t like it, you’re not happy about it, but you’re going to be okay and so are they. See if you can minimize the drama. For their sake.

    It sucks. It sucks so much. Damn, Gabby. I’m sending you hugs.

    I hope he saw reason. Let us know, okay?

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  79. Gabby, you've gotten some good advice. I am not in your shoes and can only imagine how agonizing this is. I believe, even though you can't control what he does, that you do have a right to voice concerns about him introducing a girlfriend at this juncture. Its just too soon and realistically its not appropriate to introduce your kids to anyone until it is long term and serious.
    To flip the script a little, I was thinking about introducing the guy I've been dating to the kids so we could start spending time at my house. But my kids are old enough that I can have a conversation with them about it. I flat out asked my daughter and she said she wasn't ready. So I didn't. She may have talked to my ex about it because he sent me a message asking if I was thinking of making an introduction. I told him I was not and also that I would do him the courtesy of giving him a heads up before I introduced anyone to the kids. And that I'd appreciate it if he did the same. It was not a comfortable conversation, but important. The other thing is in my favor is that my ex knows that if he tried to introduce his ow to my daughter, my daughter, the future lawyer, would eat her alive. So long story short, you and your STBX are still going to have to co parent. You are allowed to discuss matters with him that will impact your children. He may not agree with what you are saying and go ahead doing what he's doing anyway. But you can persist in telling him that you both still need to coparent and sticking to your boundaries. You can also be available to just listen, when your kids come back from whatever shitshow he creates form them. Honor their feelings and don't wade in to fix it. And above all, wade through your pain about this where your kids don't have to feel like they are responsible for it. Phoenix is a champ at this.
    Gabby this is so hard. This sucks so much. Hugs. We are here for you.

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  80. Thanks
    But I'm just having too many bad days
    Gabby

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    1. Hi Gabby,
      As others have stated, you can only control what you can control. And for your sanity and your kids, you'll need to figure out how to let go of what you can't. I know how hard this is. I remember a friend sobbing on my front porch because the OW would be reading her son bedtime stories and tucking him in. "She's the one who destroyed his family," she cried. "And now she gets to take care of him?" Fast forward a decade and this woman is my friend's son's stepmom and he is a well-adjusted, great kid.
      So yes, I think you can try voicing your concerns with your husband but ultimately you don't have any say on who he introduces your kids to. What you CAN do is give yourself a safe space to share with you their feelings. And you can continue to share her or with friends who are able to let you rant and rage about how unfair this all is and how painful so that your kids don't feel responsible for your pain.
      The others are right: This is so hard. So SO hard. I've watched a friend go through this with her ex who's now with his horrible, wretched OW who is outright cruel to the kids (ie. she calls the transgender son a "freak"). She's doing what she can legally to curb the abuse but has never said anything about the kids' father or the OW. It broke her heart when her kids would come home with stories of how "great" the OW was and how much they wanted to be at their dad's house because of the OW's dog, etc. But, with time, the kids have seen exactly who this woman is and how pathetic their father is. So my friend remains the soft spot for her kids to land as they work through their own pain.
      Gabby, you'll get through this. You're stronger than you give yourself credit for. And your kids will benefit from your strength because they'll need to rely on it. They need you to show them how to navigate pain with dignity and self-respect. You've got this. "Too many bad days." I know. But keep moving through them. They won't last forever.

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    2. I know, Gabby. Sometimes it feels like you will be miserable forever. But you won’t. Please hang in there, honey. We love you.
      Let us hear from you soon, okay?

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  81. Part 1 I just need to write this out, I think. Proud of myself for some things, in pain about others.
    So, proud. The ex was in full meltdown about the new tax laws and how they were going to negatively impact us both financially. Our arrangements are set up so we get to keep more money in the family unit under the current rules. Things are changing under the new laws. Alimony will no longer be a deduction to the paying spouse. So he was freaking out about making this months first payment andx can we change the amount he's paying me and then redo everything in writing. blah blah blah. And this is so stressful it is nauseating. I'm already angry about how my financial future is going to play out without him crying about being poor in the short term at me. So I'm like let's slow down and look at this, but I'm open to discuss. Since I didn't know how the changes were going to affect me, I started looking online. I pretty quickly found that the tax law changes will not affect those whose agreements are signed before 2019. So we aren't affected AT ALL. No change. I shared two article I found (one in the NYT and one in the WSJ) which outline this. I said you know, let's not change anything until we talk with a tax professional because I don't think we are impacted at all. I'm so proud I kept my head, didn't buy into his story and panic and didn't just roll over to his knee jerk wish to change everything. And, interestingly he was really appreciative that I had found new info that let him stand down.
    Proud part 2. Had been feeling a disconnect with the new guy. (TMI, he'd suddenly become a lot less interested in sex, and I was worried about this, given the reasons why this happened with my ex and I was kind of feeling rejected and hurt). So. I brought it up and we talked about it. He was very understanding and admitted to knowing that under times of stress and depression (he recently lost his job among other things) he tends to shut down. And that he's trying to work through it but wanted me to understand that it was not about me. He even admitted to feeling just yuck because he had not been getting exercise, something I can totally relate to. So we negotiated terms, such that I'm ok to initiate and he'll do his best not to shut down. I also suggested that he's always allowed to say no, but let's also find other ways to connect. It was a good, grown up talk and relieved my mind quite a bit. It was also just so nice to actually talk through the disconnect instead of sweeping it under the rug or pretending like I was OK and staying silent in order to not rock the boat. So I'm making progress. Still not having as much sex as I'd like, (lol) but I can totally understand and make space for someone being honest about working through their own shit, because what is happening is not a secret or mystery anymore. And it's also clear he's not expecting me to fix it for him. He just asked for my understanding. Wow.

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  82. Part 2
    So in the hurt column. My es showed up today after therapy and I guess he needed to debrief. As many of you know, this poor man has had a wreck if a childhood and as he works through stuff, he's uncovering horrors long buried. He was molested as a kid. Not once but multiple times, ongoing, by different people. I knew it had happened at the hands of one family member but not the extended story. I just learned that today. All I could do was cry with him and give him a hug. And admit to him, that I hurt so much for him and for me and our family to, that this shit that happened to him, hurt all of us too. No blame there, just so so sad. I told him that even though I seemed like I was doing good, and I really am most of the time, that I am still so deeply sad sometimes. (and what I have not expressed to him, is how very, very hurt I still am. And stupidly, hurt that he just doesn't seem to get that). He still seems to treat our relationship as if nothing has changed. Like today, when he needed to offload post therapy. I'm such a sucker.
    And then, I'm filling in details about driving my girl back up to college tomorrow. I ask if he can be on deck for dinner for our son. And he discloses he's taking a day trip tomorrow. In my head this can only mean one thing. That he's driving to Virginia to see the whore. FML. I completely shut down. I'm sure my affect completely changed. And I wonder if he even remotely gets why. And for many long minutes I was back in that hurting, panicking, angry space. Because its a punch in the gut every time I seem to let my guard down with this guy. Even when he's trying to be open and vulnerable, it seems like he's so selfish. is it just me? On the one hand I'm proud of him for continuing to work through this shit. On the other hand I'm so pissed that he waited this long. I'm through the worst of it, kind of just feeling a little shell shocked. I need more distance from this guy and I'm not sure how to manage that and still support his access to our kids, who never seem to want to leave the house or go to his place.
    I'm going to do some art later,I think. But I needed to write this out here, where I know I'll be heard. Thanks all.

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  83. SS1 - yeah it seems like he just wants to unload on you because he knows you will care. His response to your request for dinner with your son is very selfish. OMG I would be mad. You are having one on one time with your daughter- why on earth would he not want the same with your son. Especially when you ask. Insane. It seems like that may also be the reason they don’t want to spend time at his place.
    Maybe the next time he wants to debrief, kind of put him off. Tell him you are in the middle of something and see what his response is. He needs to understand that you are the mother of his children and there’s to be a relationship, but the depth of that relationship was changed due to his infidelity and issues. He doesn’t have the whole package anymore. My guess is he’s not willing to open up to his Virginia girl cause she has no idea of his history, baggage, etc and may judge him. You know it all and know him best and it’s easy to talk to you because you get it. Try your best to be busy next time and make him go to someone else to talk. He’s banking on you still and that’s so not fair.
    I like it that you’re doing art! I’m an artist too!

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    1. Thanks Heartfelt, You re right on so many levels. I've been giving him too much space in my life and in my head. Letting him take over my story again instead of keeping in mind that I am happier and feel better when I have less to do with him. The thing with dinner for my son, normally my ex would jump at the chance for extra time (credit where credit is due). Both my kids say they see him more now than before we separated. Yikes. But this time he had made plans and it was the plans that derailed me. Becuase if he was going to an antiques show or something with the guys, he'd just say that. In this case he called it a "day trip" with no details. So my head went straight to "he's going to see that effing whore who helped him break my family..." I don't know that but sometimes you can feel pretty sure when you know someone and their tells. So yes, he is a selfish ass. And he dumped his emotional load on me because I do know him so well and am still safe to talk to and I agree that there is no way he's ruined his all powerful father figure image with his side chippy by admitting specifics about his childhood to her. I know for a fact he's lied to her about a couple of things. So if worse comes to worst and she ends up in my kids lives, I'll make sure she knows what those lies are. I'm so mad at my ex right now for doing this dickhead emotional dump and run. Again. But its a good reminder to me not to open myself up to him again. I think the holidays really softened me up. I was missing a nostalgic version of our old life and him and wondering if I shouldn't just give up and invite him back. But then I think about how much work he is, the drama, the bullshit, the lies and how selfish he is, even when he's trying not to be and I don't want to go back to being in trouble for everything that is wrong in his life all the time. FTS. It still hurts my guts. I just need to sit with it, I guess. Getting old, but apparently I still need to learn it.

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  84. SS1, I’ve had the same feeling: every time I let my guard down, I get another punch in the gut. Do you ever feel like they love us AND hate us, admire us AND resent us? They want us, but they want to hurt us.
    I love how you handled the situation with your new guy. Aren’t adult relationships grand?

    I’ve felt kind of fragile ever since Christmas day. I thought I was doing so well - and then I had a complete meltdown. I feel better, but how can I know I won’t fall apart again?

    Most of the time my feelings about my ex are very negative. I still have so much anger - and I guess that means I still have a long way to go. But sometimes, I still miss him. The other night, I got out an old picture of us. And I just talked to him for about 10 minutes. I wanted to talk to the man I used to know, whose love I never doubted, who was my best friend.
    Last night he texted me. The skank had seen a notification from about a month ago thaf I had been on her Linked In page. I vaguely recall that it popped up, and I did not resist the temptation to look. Based on that, he wanted to accuse me of stalking. I responded by letting the month’s pain and anger out - I was harsh and said cutting, mocking things. Then he tried to rewrite our story again - how he tried and tried, but I excluded him and rejected him - so he turned to a “friend” who was also going through “hell”. I wasn’t having that either I told him he was a liar and reminded him of a few key facts he was ignoring. Then he started apologizing, and saying he had failed me. And talking about how he can’t stand to think of me with someone else (he knows I’m dating, but no details). I tried to get some answers out of him, because his duality confuses the hell out of me. He will make a big deal about how wonderful the skank is, and try to make our kids part of her family. And then he will turn around and tell me they are both miserable, they fight about me because he defends me to her, but she’s his only friend. She’s afraid of me, and he misses me and wishes he were dead.
    And the devil of it is, I don’t know how much of all that is pure lying manipulation, and how much of it is just him being a broken, unstable, unbalanced man.
    I didn’t get any real answers.
    I’m tired of being angry. I’m tired of grieving.
    In other news, I had 4 dates last weekend. i think that’s a personal best. Not typical, of course, but it just worked out that way. One was a friend; the others were guys I’ve met over the last couple of months. Nice dates, all of them. But nothing earth-shattering. I’ll tell you something shocking. What I really wish I had is a “friend with benefits”. I’m not ready for a serious relationship. But damn, I miss sex. Is that too, too wrong?
    Be well, sisters. Gabby, you are on my heart.

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    1. Phoenix, Most of my feelings about my ex are mixed, mostly I'm hurt. I think I miss what I imagined was there. I feel like he's a complete stranger in some ways and in other ways completely and tragically predictable.
      I suspect that for yours and is he lying or just unstable, that its mostly that he's a broken unstable mess. He can't seem to think beyond this minute and when he talks to you, I don't doubt that he believes what he is saying. He's got no sense of self and so he is whatever persona he has for whomever he's orbiting at that time. That's my ex, too. So many masks put on for so long, because he's always acting, always trying to be the perfect whatever that there is no person of substance underneath. I understand, with his childhood trauma, how he got there, but its a long road he has to come out into the light of day. And he told me to fuck off too many times for me not to take him at his word. Sorry talking about my ex too much. Yours is probably truthful when he says they are miserable. You may never get real answers and the less we both have to do with our exes the happier we will be.
      Rock on with the dates! Pace yourself and have fun! And listen having a sex drive is normal and healthy. Its OK to miss it and think about it. And thinking about a friend with benefits is not too, too wrong at all. I'd just be sure that's something you are OK with emotionally if you decide to go that route. Too bad we don't live closer. I know just the guy! ;)

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  85. Phoenix .. ‘ a friend with benefits’ that made me chuckle but there’s nothing wrong with that, I thought that was what most people wanted these days lol. Phoenix missing sex is a completely normal and basic instinct, were human that feeling of Adrenalin and whatever else it gives us is what we need and crave just like we do chocolate or alcohol. I guess once you feel comfortable with a date the next step would be sex but maybe you’ve not met the one yet. Hope you find him soon : ). Let us know how you get on my love .. I’m rooting for you xx

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  86. “He can't seem to think beyond this minute and when he talks to you, I don't doubt that he believes what he is saying. He's got no sense of self and so he is whatever persona he has for whomever he's orbiting at that time. That's my ex, too. So many masks put on for so long, because he's always acting, always trying to be the perfect whatever that there is no person of substance underneath.“

    SS1 - this really resonates with me. I think this is the best explanation I have heard so far for his behavior.
    How did I not realize, for so long, that he was so empty?
    I don’t know why he is that way. If there was childhood trauma, I don’t know about it. His parents adored him. He was the absolute light of their lives. His mother had a chronic illness, though, and there were a lot of physical/emotional ups and downs. Myabe they were more traumatic than I realized. He’s always worshipped his dad and been more distant with his mom. When she was going through serious emotional issues a few years ago, it seemed like he came to hate her. She was irrational and unpredictable. It was hard on all of us, but his dad and I dealt with it. He didn’t. He effectively cut her off. I maintained contact. I became her bridge, her connection to him, and that is why she is so fond of me to this day. She’s been better for a while now, and they’ve been rebuilding a relationship, but she hasn’t forgotten that he wasn’t there for her,
    Maybe something like that happened when he was a kid. Maybe she went haywire and he was traumatized. And who knows, maybe my occasional bouts with depression triggered some of that.
    Or maybe he was just born this way. I don’t know. I will probably never know.
    I am in a much better place these days. The extreme feelings have retreated. I am feeling so much more peaceful and rational. I so want to hold on to this state of mind. Please, let this be the turning point. The real turning point.
    You are not talking about your ex too much, BTW. I think sharing experiences helps us clarify things for each other and for ourselves. Knowing that there are other men out there who have the same kinds of problems - it helps. It helps make this whole situation seem less crazy.
    You are right. Distance is key. I am glad that you have settled that in your mind. I’m sorry that things are still happening to trigger you. I suppose the triggers will continue indefinitely, until one day we realized that, hey, we haven’t been triggered in a while. Looking forward to that “one day”. I understand what you mean about being a “sucker”. We don’t just stop caring about these men, and they know it. You are finding your way, deciding when and where to draw your new boundaries. Pushing him away, inch by inch. Let him find new outlets. Let him find other ways to vent. The relationship has changed, and you have changed. You are not his wife, and, until you have found more complete healing for yourself, I will venture to say that you cannot be his friend.
    I finally came to that realization when I realized that his affection/resentment for me meant that he was going to keep lashing out at me periodically. After the night the police came, I only spoke to him by text for about two months, I think. He was not allowed to come to my home; we always met somewhere to transfer the children. I had to put strong barriers in place to get my point across. It didn’t solve things indefinitely, obviously. But it helped a lot. Even when we talk, even when we bond a little over memories or the kids, even when we lash out, the greater distance is there now.
    Sending you hugs, my friend. Now, about that guy.....
    Sam, my sweet friend, thank you for your support! I went out with another one last night. Not really sure where I’m going with this, but I will keep you posted. How are you? Have you recovered somewhat from the emotional intensity of the holidays?
    Gabby, still thinking about you. I know you will come back and talk to us when you are ready.

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    1. Phoenix, It's always so wonderful to read your posts. Your resilience and your courage awe me. And it's wonderful to hear that you're doing well. Nobody deserves it more than you do.

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    2. Phoenix, I'm not sure they were always so empty. I think of myself in my 20s and we were both of us wonderful messes, trying to find our way and figure out who we were. I watch my kids go through "phases" trying on different styles and personas. I think it is part of growing up. I think my ex was as full of promise and potential as I or anyone else. But. It's so easy to lose our way. And lose bits of ourselves too.
      When we are confronting our demons we can respond in ways that help, in ways that are neutral or in ways that harm. And the ways that harm tear away little pieces of our souls. And if we are not paying attention we find ourselves doing more and more of the things that harm us in a desperate attempt to make it stop. To make the hurt go away. We keep reliving the same shit instead of dealing with it. I was that person. I felt like I had a black hole inside of me that nothing and no amount of love could fill up. And I know that's what happened to my ex too. It's a bit silly but it totally reminds me of Harry Potter and how a horcrux is made. You have to do something awful (commit a murder) to tear off a piece of your sole to make it and store a little piece of you away. But in the end, when you do this over and over, you cease to be human. I think that's what happened to my ex. He did things that made him hate himself over and over until any promise that was there has gone.
      As far as trauma goes, the bad news, it may not even be his. It may be shit that happened to his parents. Because if it goes undealt with it gets passed on. I spend ludicrous amounts of time trying to make sure I am not acting out my mom's shit. And I often am. My fear of being poor is 100% hers. I've NEVER been poor. I've always had enough (expect I had to get more, be successful, have LOTS, in order to really count). That's all 100% her BS. And I get mad about it. I'm wondering if there isn't some of that going on with your ex and that is why he is so angry with his mum. My mother in law is a self centered emotional tyrant that keeps a strangle hold on her children. Guess what? Her parents we even BIGGER narcissistic stranglehold artists. So we behave in ways that are modeled for us and when parents are co-dependent, they give their "stuff" to their children to carry for them.
      And before everyone gets worried about "OMG what trauma am I passing on to my kids?" You are all here working on it. The fact that you are dealing with it, even in the most rudimentary of ways to start, means that you are changing the game for your kids.
      So more armchair psychology from me, but I've spent a long time in therapy and thinking on this particular subject.
      I'm looking forward to having greater distance and some of that is going to involve some inner work of my own. I just need to close the doors I am still keeping open and the attachment I am still hanging on to.

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    3. My husband actually identified with that horcrux idea over Christmas. So much of what you are saying resonates. My husband is such a mess, depressed, conflicted between mother's total acceptance and father's criticism, self-hatred, still acts like a teenager wanting people to love him and make him feel good. He doesn't know if he can change. He makes stupid decisions moment to moment and does mental gymnastics to justify them to himself. I posted elsewhere about a devastating loss just on the 6th Jan my lovely 12 year old nephew (almost a sibling to my kids in closeness) died without warning. My husband finally sees the power of connection and family over his own selfish patterns. Will he hold onto that lesson and change himself. Who knows.

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  87. I'm here. Not always able to access the internet, so don't always get a chance to be in touch.
    As I sit here watching my kids all play together, I still can't come to terms with what he has done, that he's abandoned his family for some low life whore and has really lowered his standards and himself and financially taken us with him. What a bastard. But. We are alive, healthy and for the time being are in our home with food to eat. For how much longer? Trying to avoid that for as long as I can. I always go through scenarios of what the worst will be, to prepare -fight or flight perhaps. Still so tired of it all. Thank you all so much for the support you give here. Phoenix - thanks. xx
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. Gabby, That attitude of gratitude (sorry, don't mean to sound like a greeting card) will carry you far. If you can continue to notice those moments when you're kids are playing together, or when something fun happens, or when life is just...pretty good, that will take you a long way toward healing. Your husband is the one missing out on this. He's the loser in this situation. You guys are doing fine. You're together. You're healthy. And you will get through this, as long as you remind focussed on what really matters. Things will get better for you but that only happens when you resist the temptation to hold on to what you think should be rather than what is.

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    2. Gabby sending you big hugs. SS1

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  88. Gabby Elle’s absolutely spot on, my motto daily is to appreciate and be grateful for what I have. That’s not to say you won’t have a down moment of course you will but you’ll pick yourself up as you always do my love.

    Phoenix I’m still here I’ll be glad to say goodbye to January and the cold dark nights. Hearing the birds sing in the mornings make waking up so much better.ive not seen the h for the last few weeks other than when I’ve needed him to look after the kids whilst I’ve been out with the girls for a meal. We’re keeping our distance at the moment which is good it means I can get on with what I need to be doing and so can he. Again not spending too much time thinking about the future and what it holds as things can change in a breath as I’ve realised in the last few years. Since my youngest was born nearly 5 years ago I’ve lost both my parents and discovered h cheating 2 d days. Sometimes I don’t know how I’m still standing but thank god I am, my faith, my kids, my family and my friends here keep me going. Hoping to leave work in September to start university and I’m looking forward to that change just need to save some money to find it, that’s gonna be tough as I’m absolutely crap at saving but needs must : ) ..

    All in all I’m positive about where I am and where I want to be. Keep looking for that little ray of sunshine ladies, sorry if I’m a tad annoying at times with my positivity but we have come through so much ladies together and we have so much to look forward to. Just believe ..

    Thank you my friends love to you all xx

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    1. Love all the positivity Sam A. Keep it coming! I need more of that in my life. Hugs!

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  89. Quick note: I was at a grad party for a neighbor's daughter. Finished college early, good stuff. I knew my ex was going to be there too. He had arrived before me (it was at a local pub in a largish private party room) and when I got there he was talking with mutual acquaintances. He turns to greet me and hugs me. ... I am so mad about this. In the moment, I was taken off guard, but I'm sure the look on my face was not great. I 'm sure the acquaintance saw it. I'm mad because he did not clear this with me and I was not about to make a scene on the spot like that. But I do not need to hug him as a greeting at public events. The reasons it pisses me off are a) I am not there. I do not want to hug him. b) it feels disingenuous. I know he's putting on a show for everyone to display how great we are both doing. We are the model divorced couple (fuck him). and c) I'm not about to validate his shitty choices and the fact that he destroyed our totally saveable marriage by hugging him in public. d) i'm done making everything OK for him at my own expense. So just ug. The only thing I have left to decide is do I tell him now that I do not wish to be hugged in public when we meet for any reason or do I wait and tell him this in advance of the next event. I think I just need to tell him now.
    OMG and this other thing. Triggered. At the party there were several young female servers, all working their butts off. I looked over and saw him talking to one and she, for whatever reason, touched his chest. I'm sure its a gesture she uses all the time that nets her better tips from men old enough to be her dad. I literally snarled. I felt my nostrils flare and observed from a distance a momentary flash of the desire to kill him. Because fuck him and his gross affair with a 29 year old. And I knew it was a trigger and I had to think and breath for just a few seconds to get the snarl off my face, but it was literally a completely spontaneous response to seeing that. And I thought, imagine how I would have felt if I was still with him? I'd have to deal with that shit ALL THE TIME. I even later, at home, went home and tried on that snarl to see how it looked on my face. I'm terrifying!. I don't have any lingering after effects from that one, other than astonishment that my visceral response is still that strong. I'm more pissed about the hug really.
    So yeah, wow.
    I'm going to the gym. Running my first half marathon at the end of March, so need to get serious about my training. Good stuff.
    Love to you all.

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    1. So proud of you running a half marathon. Cheering you on in life, love and the pursuit of happiness. You can't control other people, only your own reaction and you give me strength.

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    2. Sam A. I'm glad you are positive. That's a good place to be.
      SS1. I echo Beach Girl with you running the 1/2 marathon.
      Phoenix. Thinking of you with our crappy ex husbands and their lack of thought for our kids with our ex's husbands skanks.

      SS1. I hear you with the grossness of husbands. I have a sort of similar story.
      My kids were out with him and noticed how he had a wondering eye and eyed these young women walking past. (puke!!!) Some things never change.
      They actually said it was embarrassing.
      So obviously his new whore is not too much of a catch if he has to see what's still out there.
      And Elle. After a terrible dream last night, today, despite the dream and lack of sleep, I am feeling ok.
      I have such a diverse group of female friends from all ages and cultures and I enjoy being a good person and meeting and interacting with people form all walks of life.
      It made me feel better when I think of him and his falseness and being stuck with his pathetic family and friends who condone his actions and don't speak up and call him out on them.
      You're right Elle, I do have a lot to be thankful for...my beautiful kids....and I have here the best friends ever, that I have yet to meet.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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    3. SS1, I don't doubt you're terrifying. Keep that snarl in your back pocket for when you need it. And yes, I would tell him now, clearly, that you do not wish to hug him in public. No reasons, no excuses. Just please do not do that to me again, and then move on.
      And yay for you training for a half marathon. It's amazing what that will do for your sense of power. I was always a total non-athlete and I ran a marathon years (and years!) ago. It made me so proud of what my body was capable of. I kept pace with a 70-year-old stroke survivor, which gives you some indication of where I was in the pack but I was so amazed by what I could do, just by setting my mind to it, creating a plan and sticking to it.
      And yay for you too, Gabby. It sounds like this guy brought a whole lot of undesirable stuff into your life, which you get to be DONE with. And I'm so glad you're surrounded by incredible friends.

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  90. I sent him a text. Right away. the text felt a little cowardly but it was the only way to do it immediately and I wasn't going to call him or do anything to infuse it with drama. I felt like waiting until I saw him in person, it would be less relevant. So I said hey, i was thinking about this, i don't want you to do it. He responded with a simple "Ok". SO done. Boundaries established. But it was soo soo hard to hit send. Because I have been trained for so long not to do anything that might hurt his feelings or make him sad or feel rejected or bad about himself. Very hard. But I remembered my Jedi training. I am not responsible for his feelings. Only he is. I'm not responsible for making him ok. He's an adult. So I sent it. And then talked about it in therapy. I love when my therapist is like "ooh god job... boundaries!" And we also started to dig in to why I am still holding on. Because I am and I know it. Because he's still all hooked in too. And I need to let it all go. so more Jedi training.

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  91. SS1. Good on you. Texting is fine. You needed to let him know -
    NO.
    The less contact the better. I still refuse to speak to my STBX. He wants to speak to me, he hopes one day we'll be friends. Eff off! I can't be friends with someone who caused the utmost pain to me and my children and now threatens me and the kids with financial insecurity all because he's living for his own selfish desires and to impress his new whore.
    Yeah. I'm stilled pissed.
    SS1. How do you and Phoenix do it? Be civil and talk to them, even for the kids?
    I suppose my kids are now unfortunately seeing their father place his new whore above them, and they're figuring it out for themselves too. I still tell them they have to have a relationship with him, but they really aren't as interested any more. It's so sad, but kids pick up on things too -even without me saying anything. Sometimes they initiate the conversations on all this and I can't believe how insightful they really are. It doesn't help their relationship with their father when they are coping a bit of crap from some of their fathers siblings.
    I shake my head in disgust at my STBX family defending him. Some hypocritical "Christians" indeed.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. Gabby, in my humble opinion, your minor age kids must comply with whatever court approved parenting plan is in place but at some point, your kids can make their own decisions. I've not had to share my kids with an ex so I have no idea how hard/frustrating, etc that is but I think it is OK for you to tell them that as long as the court has given him time with them, they need to comply (unless there is abuse or neglect) but that when they become adults they can make their own decisions about contact.

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  92. Gabby, I sometimes struggle with the fact that mine do NOT see their dad for what he is - and even worse, that they are drawn to the skank and her kids. But in the long run, I know I'm lucky. It would be worse if they felt neglected by him. I’m grateful he is a loving dad, for their sake. I’m sorry your kids are seeing the negative side of your ex. When our kids hurt, we hurt.
    It’s easier to be civil to him when I’m living in the moment, and shutting out the past. If I let myself think about everything that happened, I get angry, and it’s harder.
    SS1 - good for you, speaking up and settling boundaries! Yes, it’s hard sometimes, even now, to cause them pain. But truly, we are not responsible for their feelings. I had to ignore so many “I love you’s“, so many pleas, desperate cries, so many middle-of-the-night calls. And sometimes it was really hard. Because yes, we still had our hooks deep in each other. But I had to protect myself. Opening up ALWAYS eventually resulted in a sucker punch. I learned. And I withdrew.
    I’ve said it here before: it’s not a clean break. It’s a slow, painful tearing process. It takes endurance. Like a marathon!
    Amazingly, we have actually set a closing date for my ex and his parents to buy my house. I never really thought it would happen. I thought he was just castle-building. I’m still not completely convinced, but with an actual date set, I’m ready to house-hunt again.
    I had a melancholy evening 3 to 4 nights ago, letting myself get mired down again in the thought of the skank inevitably coming into my house. To visit my in-laws, stay, maybe even one day to live there. So strange, to think of her and him and my kids in our house. To think of her in the bathroom where I cried and cried on the floor so many times, and sometimes he held me. For her to sit in the living room where I plugged in the throw-away phone I had found in his car, and read yet more texts that would scar my soul. Where I leaned against the wall, alone in the house one day, and screamed myself hoarse for several minutes, unable to bear the pain. Perhaps to sit at the desk in the computer room, where I sat when I found their communications on Linked-In, and I cried and confronted him.
    The bedroom. Where we conceived our children. Where we had sex and conversation and cuddles for 15 years. Where we first discussed divorce, and then we held each other and cried and decided to keep trying.
    It seems somehow unbelievable that she will walk into that house, and that the very walls will not scream my pain at her.
    But of course, they won’t. And after that mildly melancholy night, I’ve been on a pretty even keel about it. I know it won’t be easy. But to move out of that house, which is haunted with memories, and yet is still my comfort zone, will be yet another break with the past. I would rather have sold it to a stranger, and made it a really clean break. But I love my In-laws. And who knows, maybe it will haunt him. And even her.
    Because we all know, he, she, and I, that she couldn’t be me on her best day.
    The best she can do is live in my ashes. Perhaps it it help to think of the house as an abandoned chrysalis. It served its purpose. She can crawl in and huddle in the dead remains of my old life. And I will fly free, to new surroundings.
    I will try to preserve that image! Hugs, sisters!

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    1. You’ve been through such difficult times Phoenix but guess what you’ve come through the other sidezzit must feel good to look back on your story to see just how strong and brave you are to have picked yourself up of that bathroom floor and still do your best!! Seriously Phoenix you should be so proud of yourself..

      I hope your coming on the planned retreat Phoenix , I really want to meet you in person and give you a hug and a half : ) .. xx

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  93. Phoenix, this is so helpful to me right now. I suddenly, out of nowhere, am missing my ex, tired of this whole divorce thing, wondering what it would be like if we tried again. Wondering why he didn't couldn't fight for me. When I told him I needed to wait and see what he did, he didn't step up. Told himself some story about how I had made my "decision" or something. And as Sam A once said, this man has no fight in him. And I guess I feel like I deserve a guy who looks at me and says "hell yes". not just well maybe but I'm afraid or ambivalent or need her to make it easy. Sigh. I'm tired. I miss my friend.
    I think some of it is just symptoms of what is going on in my life in general. New guy, who is still sweet and thoughtful, has also been dealing with the loss of his job and a lot of other stressful things, starting a new job. And I'm not making excuses for him. I'm just being watchful. We've had sex once since before Thanksgiving. I feel like its too soon for a guy to not be that excited about me anymore. I know its probably not about that at all. I've talked to him about it. I'm still being watchful. But the bottom line is, I'm not getting what I need emotionally either. Not feeling connected. So my insides are like "why can't someone just fucking pick me already?"
    And I'm trying to keep my distance from my ex so I don't so or say something stupid and at the same time I wonder if i'm right or wrong. I'm tired of being sad. And going through another round of letting go.
    And I keep thinking about my house, which doesn't feel like my house anymore. It's just a temporary place, prolonged agony in some ways. And on some days I look forward to selling it. But I don't want him to buy it. I don't want there to be any chance that the skinsuit ever lives here. I sometimes feel I'd rather it burn to the ground before I see that happen. And then I think about buying a chunk or uranium and leaving it under the floor boards of the master bedroom. That's pretty evil. And at the end of the day I know I can't control whether or not he buys the house or gets back together (or is together , i don't even know) with that stupid girl. But the idea that they'd always be living with my ghost helps. That I will have walked on to something better. That, as I hear from many quarters, one day I actually won't care. What he does or who he's with. But right now I still do. I don't think he really understands how much he hurt me, which is confusing. How does he not get it? He's been here too. How does he think I'm fine? Are they all just stupid? or wearing blinders.
    So I'm still sad and lonely and need to recenter and hang on to the good stuff when it happens.
    I wish my brain was working better too. Thinking and focusing on work can still be so hard. Stupid PTSD.

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    1. SS1. I get how you are feeling.
      We are pining for the "should have beens".
      We are left to pick ourselves up after all the shit that has been dealt to us - in this joined union "marriage" -caused by our husbands.
      It is all so unfair. At our age to have to go back to struggle street with uncertainty of housing and to be putting our kids through all this.
      Refresh my memory. Is your ex back with his whore? Mine has a new one, and it's not any easier if it's the old or new.
      I'm a bit over people saying "you're strong, you've got this". I'm over always being the strong one holding it together - which I have to for the kids sake. Sometimes I just want to do NOTHING! He's checked out, has no strength, and is only hanging onto the kids by a thread.
      My STBX can't understand my PTSD how this effects me and at times I literally don't want to do anything.
      And I haven't "got this" as my life is falling apart - my housing security is uncertain. I know people feel like they have to say something positive and maybe I seem to project this (masked) strength to others that I don't know about. So now if people say how are you? I tell them honestly "today I feel great", or "not feeling the best today"....and do you know what? So many women are opening up about their feelings too and the amount of support I'm getting is amazing. Women sticking together.
      And yes SS1. Our men are stupid and insensitive. They don't care about the pain they cause us. I don't believe they really love us, like they did, because you don't hurt people you love. Mine is all about him and his feelings - now surpassing his kids needs and feelings. I hate him and his selfishness.
      This PTSD is a killer. My brain is all over the place at times too.
      My kids bring me back to reality and are my sole purpose for going on.
      I too, like you, have been having major steps forward, and now, we both are going through some really trying times which are setting us back. But we both recognise this, so that's a positive - something we know is affecting us and we need to work on with our counselors.
      Our time lines and experiences are similar and I wish we were close enough just to be there for each other. At least we can come here. (Thanks Elle)
      I'm wishing you much happier times and sending many hugs
      Gabby xo

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    2. Hey SS1
      I just went for a walk to clear my head, well try to anyway.
      I feel like a piece of me is missing. Albeit a very toxic piece...and I know a piece that had to go, but I'm feeling a bit lost, a bit alone. What are you doing to try and get through this shitty time?
      hugs
      Gabby xo

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  94. Ss1 I really wish I could speed up your healing and get you to a better place. Hope today feels a little better than yesterday. Thinking of you ss1 .. lots of love coming your way xx

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  95. Thanks Sam A and Gabby. I got a good night's sleep and so am doing tons better. Sleep is a miracle worker sometimes. Also the sun is out.
    Gabby to answer your Q about if my ex is back with the side piece, I honestly don't know. A few months ago, when he was making vague reconciliation noises after his DUI and he realized that I was the person who would show up at the hospital for him, we were having some deeper conversations. He had made a commitment to not drink and then I saw him in photos with buddies having a beer. I asked him about this, as I believe it materially impacts my children. Excuses and dodging. In the same conversation, I shared how painful it would be for me if he got back together with her, that even dating strangers was going to be hard. He responded with "we're not in a relationship now but I'm not ruling it out in the future." What. The. Living. Holy. Fuck. What this said to me is that a) he's a selfish idiot b) he was trying to keep his options open while half-heartedly trying to work thing sout with me c) he was still in contact with her and d) he's a fucking idiot. Did I mention he's an idiot? So I don't know for sure their status. I try not to pay attention to it and I try not to get too deeply involved with his comings and goings for work, which are mildly triggering (I can't imagine what id be feeling if we were together with all his work travel. Crazy.)
    So as far as getting thru the shitty time? I try to be with people. I think a natural response, when you are feeling depressed, is to withdraw, from life, from people, from stuff that makes you happy. I fight to do the opposite, because I've learned that time with good people always makes me feel better. I volunteer with a veteran's service organization that is open to both military and civilians. It is one of the best choices I've made for myself as a survival strategy. I am doing something that matters, I get lots of love and validation and I have made some amazing and precious new friends. When I am low, I know I have Wednesday night trivia with my crew. I had to literally drag myself there this week. No makeup or anything. I felt 1000 times better after spending just an hour with these people. SO Gabby go find your people. Find ways to connect with other humans (in addition to your kids - you need things that they can not provide you with). If you are a church person, I bet your church has a women's group. Maybe the local book store has a book club. Do you have family nearby? Or girlfriends? call them and go to lunch..
    I'm also giving myself a break. About everything. I was killing myself tracking my food and trying to shed a few holiday lbs AND train for this half marathon in March. It was too much. I was to tired and hungry. So I let myself off the hook for tracking my food. And guess what? 1000 times happier.
    I meditate my ass off. Daily. And also take hot baths. Sometimes I do both at the same time.
    I get out with my camera and so something creative.
    Do what fills your cup Gabby. Take your attention off that dumbass and put it on you.
    And we are here for each other! I'm standing right here with you Gabby, my girl! Hugs and love, SS1

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    1. SS1. I'll say it again for you. Your husband is an idiot!!
      Love and Hugs
      Gabby xo

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  96. PTSD. That’s what I have to remind myself. It’s PTSD.
    SS1, I’m glad you’re on a more even keel. Sometimes it feels like we are at the end of our rope, but our emotional resources are much deeper than we realize.
    I don’t know if I will ever again form that intimate a bond with someone. I don’t know if I will find someone with whom I can form a real bond. I don’t know if I will allow myself to do so. I don’t know if I will ever fully trust again. I am open to the idea, but I don’t bond easily. I accept the possibility that it may not happen.
    With that in mind, it has become more and more about loving and accepting myself. I see my own flaws very clearly, I always have. I’ve always struggled with some amount of self-hatred.
    But these days, while I still see the flaws, I also see more and more to like and admire about myself. And I feel the need to cultivate this self-acceptance. Because I may be the best friend I ever have. And clearly, in this life, we cannot fully rely on someone else to look out for us. We must learn to take care of ourselves.
    My younger daughter was in a play this weekend. The plan was that I would go and see it Friday night, and her dad would go and see it Saturday night. On Saturday afternoon, about four hours before the play, I found out from my older daughter that the skank and all her kids were coming too. It was a shock. These plays are heavily attended by the community theater folk, the people interact with regularly. I confronted my ex, wanting to know why he hadn’t given me a heads-up. He apologized, and said that he really thought he had told me. I don’t believe that.
    I was shook up, and my poor older daughter had to deal with it. I showed more of my feelings than I would have liked. And I came closer to criticizing her dad in front of her than I ever have before. But I modified my comments, to make his behavior seem acceptable. She apologized, and I told her the truth: she has nothing to apologize for, of course. She is not doing this to us. We are doing it to her. Her father, when he created the situation, and I, when I emotionally responded to it. I also reminded her that, even though I wasn’t OK at the moment, I would be OK. I would always be OK.
    Damage control.
    So I dealt with some bitterness last night. This morning, of course, I felt better. I watched my older daughter be baptized, and I was civil to her father.
    PTSD. This is how I explain it to myself these days. We are also familiar with triggers. And the skank is not really a person to me, she is simply my very biggest trigger. These days, I hardly ever dwell anymore on the incredible pain and anguish of those many months back in 2015-2016. But the skank can trigger those emotions again, and take me back to that dark place.
    That is both her fault and not her fault. She made the selfish and cruel choices. But she did not set out to become a Trigger. How could anyone who has not been through this anticipate the full consequences of such actions?
    The house closing is in two days. I am house-hunting this afternoon. I half expect my ex to gum up the works, especially after yesterday. His general pattern is to tolerate my meltdown, and then respond with a backlash meltdown of his own. Our patterns have been changing, of course, with more distance and increasing time between meltdowns. So it remains to be seen how all this will turn out.
    But perhaps this understanding I have reached will be beneficial to some of you as well as to me. She is a trigger. Nothing less, nothing more. Like all triggers, I expect her to lose her potency as healing progresses. We shall see.
    Do things progress with the plans for the retreat? I don’t always look at the main pages. Y’all be sure to keep me apprised. My finances are tight, and I want to do my damnedest to plan for this.
    Hugs, sisters.

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  97. Phoenix
    I hope you are ok and you are able to find suitable housing and it's not too much of a worry for you.
    This may be our path soon, and it's not one I look forward to. Keep us posted with how you are.
    Like you, I want so much to get to our BW retreat. I hope it happens for both of us, as you will be one person (of many) I seek out to give a big hug to. (I think I'll be spending the first couple of hours hugging for comfort and support)!
    I'm really angry with my STBX at the moment. I hear you with how you feel about another relationship. I too can never see myself being able to trust, so heading down that path is a no go for me. But this morning when I was out walking, I just got so angry with my STBX and thinking of what he has done and continues to do and I just thought, stuff you. I hope I meet a really nice man one day and enjoy life with a "man" and a real partner. So this roller coaster of emotions of mine is in full motion.
    Gee Phoenix. You have such a kind heart with your kids toward you ex. I have taken a different approach, to you and my mom. I let the kids know irresponsible he is, and really, they've seen him put his new skank ahead of them, so they need to be a bit more open to what is going on. They need to see how to spot red flags - even from those who should be loving and protecting us. I think my kids are a bit older than yours. I need to equip them for the real world.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  98. Phoenix, Once again you have articulated so many things I am feeling myself. I always thought I was fairly open-hearted, but I've come to realize I am and have been quite guarded since childhood. That I take a long time to open up and trust and I only made that deep bond and felt myself truly in love once. I wonder if I will ever feel that way again. I realized that wanting to be loved or hoping someone will love me is not the same as being open to that deep intimate bond. I can want something and be afraid of it too. Not surprising, but makes me sad that I may never feel that way again except for fleeting moments. But I just don't know what the future will hold and I am working on opening up because I believe you get what you give. So maybe I need to be better at being open and honest and taking an emotional risk.
    I'm sorry your ex seems to have avoided telling you about the group trip to the play. Seems cowardly? Like he was avoiding being uncomfortable and passed that on to you. Lame. I'm sorry you had to deal with that and are anticipating backlash.
    And thank you so much for the idea that the OW is really just a trigger. It reduces her power even more. It helps me reconcile in some ways that I despise her and what she has done and also feel very, very sorry for her that she doesn't know that she deserves better than the crumbs she's been offered or the hurt her parents likely visited on her. But even with all that I don't want her in my house. She's just a trigger. A nasty one, but one I can at least control by interrupting my thoughts. The less I dwell on her, the less triggered I'll be. Thank you for this concept. It is so helpful.
    House hunting. My wish for you is a lovely place, with ample space and a cozy garden and room to breath and light and full of color to make your own. To hold your things and treasures and girls and make all your own, free of past hooks and ghosts. (Unless it is a helpful, laundry folding, dish washing ghost.)
    Things progress behind the scenes with the retreat. I'm hoping it isn't too high end, personally. I can't afford a lot of additional paid activities. I just want to hang out with you all, hug, cry, commiserate, congratulate, maybe do some yoga or a walk and have a glass of wine (or tea etc.). We'll all need to start a GoFundME page, lol
    Gabby, I hope you are hanging in. I can feel your righteous anger from her. You go girl. I'm sorry your hurting, but use your anger to get done what you need to get done.
    And I think its totally fine to not be ready for men and dating. I jumped into it waaaay before I was ready, mostly as an act of defiance, and on some level to prove to myself that someone would want me. Turns out I learned a lot about myself and my ongoing self esteem issues through dating. And believe it or not I met some lovely people and had fun. But I also know I am still so wounded, sometimes it is hard to show up emotionally. So I'm taking it slow. The ramble is this; when you think you might be ready, don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Or when you aren't looking some guy will sot you. You never know. I'm still rather stupidly romantic and believe you can find happiness in a true partnership. Its never too late as long as you are still breathing!

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  99. I’ve come to the conclusion that I’d rather have zilch then crumbs, so not worth having crumbs and the hassle that goes with it absolutely pointless. I don’t know if you read my recent find on the stupid ass man that fathered my children ( that’s all he deserves to be referred to) I’ve found statements to suggest he’s had ongoing contact with ow again this is the 3 rd time and last time for me, I’m out seriously, to be fair the marriage was hanging on by a thread but I didn’t deserve to be blindsided again in this way. But because we’ve been living separately for some time now I’ve kind of got used to that as have the kids so we’re ok. If I start playing the victim of how could he blah blah blah it hurts, it hurts when I see he spent money on her and gets furious when i or the kids ask for anything see that hurts. He can have her and vice versa so welcome to each other. I don’t want to jump the gun so I’m just gonna take each day as it comes and continue to focus on me and kids. I’d really like to meet someone else in the future someone totally different to this lunatic, who knows what the future will bring but I’m not ruling it out, not ready for anything in the near future though.

    How far are we on the retreat ss1 I’m loving the gofundme page lol.

    Ss1, Gabby Phoenix and all the rest of the warrior women we gonna be just fine xxx

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    1. Ugh, Sam A, that is so disappointing. I can only imagine your reaction to this discovery. How can people be so selfish and so stupid? I wish you super strength for your next encounter with that man.
      Thinking of you - and hope to meet at the retreat!

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  100. Thanks Selkie trying to keep a level head, xx

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  101. Ladies who have gone through separation and divorce I need a helping hand. So I know that divorce is inevitable now, I’m not gonna lie I feel torn not because I think it’s the wrong choice, I know I’m not getting the respect I deserve and it’s time I stand up for myself and leave the marriage. Trying not to hang on to all the bad he’s done over the years but that also gives me the motivation to move forward. We’ve not had a conversation and that’s probably making it harder for me a friend of mine has intervened because she felt necessary to do so I was fine with this, no one wants to see friends divorce do they? But at the same time only I know how I feel and what I’ve put up with for many years. I’m just comfortable in this situation but it’s unhealthy it’s not ‘ normal behaviour’. I feel like I don’t want to talk to him because I’m scared he might melt my heart a little enough to halt the divorce, I’ve not initiated anything yet, but have done some research. I don’t know this is a massive massive deal for me and my kids and it’s something that has been left for me to do because yet again he isn’t capable or brave enough to do the right thing, instead he will quite happily carry on the way we are whilst interacting with the ow. It’s really odd he’s keeping things from me, I reckon I probably only know a quarter of this man which is sad really. Bloody he’ll this is tough and I’m kinda just getting it down on text it’s easier than having the thoughts in my head rushing round . Please help if you can .. thank you guys xx

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    1. Sam A,
      I've been holding you close in my thoughts. Remember: the right thing isn't always the easy thing. It might be "easier" to halt the separation and do exactly what he's doing. But you have too much integrity to live a half-life. You can do this, Sam A. Next right step. Don't gallop ahead. And be gentle with yourself. This is really really tough. Even if it's right, it's tough.

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  102. Elle thank you, just what I needed to hear. Thank you for thinking of me that means a lot.. next right step : ) xxx

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  103. Sam A,
    My heart aches for you even though you seem to have your eyes wide open with regard to your next step. Nobody could blame you for moving forward with something more formal given all that you have weathered over the past years. I think most of us knew that our marriages had a 50-50 chance of survival after D-day and I am sorry your spouse was unable to get his head screwed on strait. Maybe this is that door to the future you that was waiting to open. You have given him ample time to grow up, show up and stop acting up. Keep breathing friend. One day at a time.

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  104. thank you beach girl, I’m so lucky to have found such genuine caring souls.. your words are keeping me afloat xx

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  105. pt1/2
    sorry in advance for the ramble...

    Sam A
    My dear dear friend
    I will tell you from my perspective. I know you've been following me, as I have you, so you pretty much know my struggle, but just to put it all here in answer to your question/advise for help.
    I will not sugar coat this. It will be hard, knowing there is no rescuing your marriage. Your marriage will be over. You can't have a marriage with only one person invested - You! It's time to think of you and your kids. He's not thinking of you. He's entertaining her...again!!!
    You will go through mixed emotions, ups and downs, good and bad memories, as both SS1 and I are experiencing. I say are, as we are still on the emotional roller coaster ride. That's to be expected as we were married and had our life planned out. We can't just turn off many years of invested love (30 years for me) as easily as the cheaters, this will take time.
    I don't know how you are financially. I'm not in the best financial position for the lifestyle WE built. I tried to hang on for a few more years at least whilst I put aside some "out of here money". I couldn't even do that, as the disrespect he had toward me was sickening.
    With us, finances have not been settled, but now he has his new whore - even his kids have been neglected as he puts his new thing ahead of me and the kids.
    Have you got enough finances to keep you in a house, to not have to worry about food, bills?
    You must seek legal advice asap to sort this out. If your h does not hide his pay/banking/tax etc, you should have an insight of where you stand here - how much he earns etc. It's all different now, as before with him having his side thing sort of hidden with you still being married, but once their relationship is out in the open, he'll probably be spending more money on her (if he's anything like mine). If you can now, go out and purchase some things you need ie kids things - new school shoes/sports shoes or a voucher to purchase them at a later date, makeup for you, new jacket, shoes for you, new dinner set, long life food, bedding etc, because once the income stops, this may be hard for you to "just go out and purchase".
    Also. This is a good one for you socially.You could shout your friends to a few going out dinners/drinks that they can "pay back" to you at a later date when/if money becomes tight. You need to keep socialising/living and having adult time with your friends.
    I have just purchased new bedding as I don't want to sleep in the same sheets as him, not that he ever brought anyone to our home. I just need a new start.

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  106. pt2/2

    I would do anything for my kids, I really tried to hang on for them, but with him around, he wasn't a healthy human to have around and now with his moody self gone this has made for a much happier house.
    Emotionally you will probably be laying awake in bed thinking "could I have done anything different?" I'm about 6 months out of our 2nd for good separation, and whilst I am still really pissed, I'm really getting over him. I used to think 1) could I have turned a blind eye to his going on's the CONSTANT inappropriate female "friendships", the affairs 2) I'd hope he'd come crawling back and say "I made a mistake".
    Now, whilst I do get upset for my future to have been ripped from my life - I no longer want him back. I really see him as the hopeless person he is. Someone who was not willing to fix himself to man, husband and father up. He will never change, as the older he gets, the more entitled he feels, the more arrogant he has become, and the more control he feels he has.
    Write down all the negatives and positives about him. I did. I had pages of negatives, and only a few positives. That was a real wake up call as I re read this and realised just how bad a person he is.
    I still feel I'm stuck just floating on the edge, as for the time being we are still in our house which has yet to be settled. This and finances are the only thing weighing heavy on my mind, but . BUT the rest of my life is pretty good. The kids and I have our health, they are doing really well at school, I'm immersed in their schooling and sports, I have lots of female friends and wonderful family around....and my kids adore me. We have the best relationship.
    You have started the process of YOU by doing the course. You are young enough to have a great goal like that, and I feel here how compassionate and SO level headed you are, you will make an absolute wonderful counselor. (I'll be your first client).
    Sam. He's proven he's not going to change, and you know this as you're making plans to divorce. You don't need to be disrespected any longer, and not by the man who vowed to love and honour you in good times and bad. Vent here all you need. We are the one lot of women who know exactly what you are going through.
    Sending much love, support and HUGS
    Gabby xo

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  107. Gabby what an excellent response, honestly what you’ve said will help me along this path so much. I love the practical and financial advise I know this will help me in the long run. I’m booked in with a divorce person on Tuesday, he informs me this could be dissolved or resolved whatever the right word is in around 3 months which is great for me it gives me time to get my shit together before I start uni in September. Gabby Currently have nothing inside me for this man other than I’m doing the right thing at starting divorce proceedings I understand that my feelings will change day to day hour by hour but weirdly I’m doing ok. Having been separated for the last 18 months def has helped me this time, we weren’t madly in love neither was was the relationship in a good place which I’m thankful for as I feel things would have been different had we been in a good place and loved up.
    Thankfully I have my own house, he has no share in it so no problem there, all I want is a monthly income to feed and clothe my boys. I need nothing more from this man.
    I’m gonna refrain from telling too many people about my plans as like with betrayal so many people have different views on divorce and I don’t need anyone telling me to give him another chance blah blah blah not that anyone will but I don’t want to be made to feel like I’m making a hasty decision I really don’t think I am 15 years of a sham of a marriage is more than enough.

    I’m really looking forward to starting my course Gabby, psychology is just my passion hope I might sort my own head out along the way lol, I’ll maybe practise my skills on you guys too : )..

    I so appreciate your valuable feedback Gabby, I sometimes forget about the financial side just because I’ve been so independent throughout the marriage..

    Thank you my love, so pleased your at a place of peace long may it last..

    Love ya lots

    Xxx

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  108. So I’ve woken up today anxious and agitated went for a run and still had the frustrations within my body when I got back. Got into bed And had a cry quietly as my son was home. My friend was on her way to collect me fot breakfast broke down again couldn’t keep it together but I guess that’s normal given my appt is tomorrow to start divorce proceedings .. so many worries/ fears going through my mind feeling out of control with my thoughts, trying to not spend too much time worrying.. this is so tough, so tough that I’m having to make this life changing decision through no fault of mine, but it’s my decision to make And I’m told their will be some relief once it’s done, I believe their will be but I’m not liking what I see in the mirror at present a frightened girl with tired eyes and the weight on her shoulders.. struggling today guys xx

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    1. Sam A, I have been through a divorce and I know how much it hurts. It is like someone is dead. Something is dead. It isn't but it FEELS like a lonely road to travel. I felt lost, lonely and like no one gave a shit for about a year. It took me that long to get all my feet on the ground. No fault is right. All those no fault dreams, hopes and happy endings are just gone. Loyalty is a big thing for me. Doing what I say I'm going to do is a big thing for me. Not giving up is a big thing for me. After a year, it doesn't get better, not great but better. What did help was to get my ass off the couch and play tennis. I met several friends on that tennis court which lead to other friends. Had my first and only ONS on my couch. Had my first and only OW 2 night stand. So then who I think is Mr. Wonderful comes along, sure I'm experienced, won't make the same mistakes as number 2 and guess what. Life just suck sometimes. Love to you a bunches.

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  109. Sam A
    I'm so sorry you are going though these mixed emotions at the moment. This is to be expected. Hang in there. It is a bumpy ride, and it's perfectly ok to change your mind. We are here to support you 100%.
    Go back and look in that mirror. You'll see a woman who is beautiful, capable, compassionate, loving, a devoted mother, a loyal faithful wife/person, a decent human....amongst many other wonderful qualities.
    Go through the list of good and bad in him.
    He is entertaining another woman. He is putting time, effort and money into her NOT you his wife.
    Do you want to settle for crumbs?

    This is life changing Sam A. So take your time, you don't have to rush anything.

    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  110. Thanks gabby, todays the day i go to start the ball rolling. One step at a time. Wish me luck : ) xx

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    1. Sam A,

      I'm thinking of you. You can only do what you think is the best thing at this moment in time. Nobody can tell the future. It must be so hard.

      I may be heading towards that place where you are now and I already feel the terror. Sending you all the positive vibes possible.

      Last night I heard this poem by Khalil Gibran on Insight Timer and wanted to share it:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eamHKMs2Bos

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    2. Good luck Sam A!

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  111. Hi Sam A
    I'm holding your hand from here. Sending you much love and support
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  112. Just an update on yesterday’s meeting re divorce, I went along with my 2 closest friends who were acting as witnesses with every intention to start divorce proceedings .. I gave in my statement And told my story, still finding some positive things to say about my h which I think is exemplary on my part given the current situation. I was asked at the end of the conversation if I would consider a reconciliation if there were conditions in place, my immediate reaction was yes, I was desperate for conditions, conditions I tried to impose but failed or should I say he failed. I looked at my two friends and asked what they thought they both agreed it was a good idea, a last chance. I asked for financial conditions, infidelity conditions and overall respect in the marriage..The solicitor said he would call my h in for a meeting put this to him and it was up to him then whether he would adhere to the conditions or not. If he didn’t want to reconcile with the conditions then the divorce proceedings would go ahead if he did however a contract would be made up and if broken the divorce would go straight ahead regardless. I thought I was being fair. Was my my marriage worth fighting for or not? So I guess it’s all on him now let’s see what happens from here. I came home fairly positive about the situation and happy that I had taken this step in seeing a divorce lawyer as this was something I’ve never done before so will it be the blow to the brain this man needs? . I guess we will have to wait and see. I’m sat here with wide eyes and open ears, well aware of past behaviour and being let down badly. He will either let me and the kids slip through his fingers or take responsibility for himself, his marriage and grow the hell up. Any thoughts ladies?

    Xxx

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  113. Thank you llp, Selkie, ss1, beach girl, Phoenix, Elle and gabby knowing I have you ladies right besides me means so much. Xxx

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