Separating/Divorcing (Page 8)

203 comments:

  1. Hey I'm over here on Separating and Divorcing 8. We have really come a long way.
    I just want to say that it took me a few days, but I am out the other side of being triggered on Sunday, but it took me way offline for longer than I expected. Something to dig into in therapy. I was a little mad about it. Feeling much more put together now.
    Finally, Phoenix, You've been on my mind. If you can't come to the retreat, I'm going to ride my tiger to wherever you are. We can laugh and cry and drink mimosas and TP the skank's house at night. Or leave a flaming bag of poo on her doorstep or other mature adult shenanigans like that.

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    1. SS1
      Sorry you're going through a dark place but glad that you're emerging again into the light. Peaks and valleys, my tiger friends. Peaks and valleys.

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    2. Thanks Elle, I am so much better now. I think I needed it as a reset. Having a banner week (and weekend) after being so derailed for a day or two. Lots going on that is good. I closed a new design client for a big job. More things in the hopper. I fixed a door knob with my own screwdriver. I mowed the whole damn acre today, gave the dogs a bath and just splurged (health wise) and had McDonalds with my son for dinner.

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  2. Hi
    I'm just going to think....and type.
    Lately, I've been thinking, what hope has "marriage" got in today's society.
    No one today seems interested in longevity in anything anymore. Always changing jobs....and partners - searching for their "soul mate"...blah blah crap!
    News flash. You will not get everything on your wish list.
    Whilst not that long ago, it was men cheated way more than women and the wives just kept quiet and suffered in silence as divorce was just not on the cards - and now today we are all going through our own sufferings - where in the hell is marriage heading?
    Is there any purpose for it anymore?
    Yes, I still believe in marriage, just not some people who are marrying.
    As I now have reason to believe my STBX has been unfaithful for even before our marriage - I'm really pissed off that he couldn't even be truthful ANYTIME. If he didn't want to be exclusive, why in the blazers did he want to get married? Was it because I was more financially stable than him, was it because I didn't know he was a lying cheating bastard all those years ago and it was a game to him to string me along when I was none the wiser?
    I feel completely used by such a conniving person. I gave my all to be in a relationship/marriage where you are in it to share life with - yet where was he, his mind?
    So, this is why I no longer care for this horrible man. He was prepared to make me believe I was loved exclusively and wanted for life only to toss me and his kids aside when I no longer "served his purpose".
    Yes he has issues, and being around his toxic parents didn't help, but we all have some sort of issues from our youth. As an adult, it's time to adult up! It's now that I stand back away from them that I see nothing has changed with them and it won't, because they can't see an issue with their behaviours and themselves because unfortunately, they have been able to get away with their entitled issues for too many years.
    So as much as I will always be sad not to have a marriage that stood the test of time and lasted until death, I now see I am glad to be away from such toxic dysfunctional people.
    What do I hope for my future? At this point in time, I have no desire to be in a relationship as I don't know if I will ever be able to trust anyone again. I don't need a man to make me happy. I'm happy within myself, with my wonderful kids, and my friends. I'm finding there are so many women being on their own, I know I will not have a shortage of friends and travel buddies in years to come.
    I've told my kids (they're still too young), that before they marry, they are to do a pre marital course with their partner. Just got to find a good course to send them on - one that focuses on respect and honesty. I know that will not shield them, but hopefully, it might give them tools to deal with issues that arise before they get out of hand. Who knows?
    SS1. Glad you are feeling better. If you don't mind me saying. I don't know the new new guy you have your eye on. Just look out for red flags, and I hope he's not one of these guys that whilst is a "catch", is not always looking out for who will be catching him.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. Gabby,
      I wish a pre-marital course was an inoculation against infidelity. But here's the thing: My husband wanted to get married in the Catholic church (mostly to please a critical mother) so we had to do the course, though I grumbled the entire time because I thought it was stupid. Instead...I got a ton out of it. And my husband was sexually acting out (without my knowledge, obviously) the entire time. I think we have to accept that we can never truly know another human being unless they truly know themselves and continue to share with us. And even then...I'm not so sure. I think we're each capable of things we can't imagine until a certain situation arises. WE are complex creatures. But yes, I did learn tools in that program that continue to help me.
      That said, your husband choose the comfort of what he knew, no matter how unhealthy it was, to the discomfort of change. That's not uncommon, sadly. I remember, years ago, writing a story about children who's been sexually abused and the lawyer told me that these kids would rather return to their home with the abuser than go into foster care or another situation. The devil you know...
      All of which is to say, it's your husband's loss. I don't think he rejected you so much as he rejected changing himself.
      You were used, to some extent, which isn't the same as saying he didn't care for you. As my mom used to say, people love us the best they can. Sometimes their best is horrible. But it generally reflects also their ability to love themselves. When they love themselves better, they can love others better.

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    2. Thanks Elle
      Your words have certainly opened my mind to seeing things another way.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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    3. Gabby, I wonder too, about marriage. Esther Perel has some interesting thoughts on the subject, but her position on marriage, sex and relationships is not for everyone.
      I do agree that people view marriage increasingly as disposable or throw away. We live in a quick fix, instant gratification society. People grow up not having to deal with discomfort, or boredom, or even feelings in some cases. So when those things come up the dump and run rather than sit through the discomfort. I see my amazing daughter actually wrestling with these things right now in a fledgling relationship with a nice boy. She's got a fear of intimacy for a lot of reasons that I won't drone on about here. But she recognizes it and is mindfully choosing not to run from a boy who treats her nicely because it makes her uncomfortable, (because the subtext she recognizes is that some inner voice tells her shoe doesn't deserve to be treated nicely or that there's a price). I'm so proud of her for trying to sort this out with the awareness she has now at 18. But to my original point, I know plenty of people, across all ages, who just don't know how to deal with suffering. I think we do here at BWC because we've had to. No way out but through. It s a lesson in reality and life, for sure.
      As far as a pre-marital course for your kids, I personally would be more inclined to just get them into therapy now. I have been gently moving my kids that direction. Giving them a chance to review the codependent stuff they grew up with and fix how they relate to others and themselves, may help them choose better, healthier relationships for themselves in the future. I've come to realize that I married my mother, my most dysfunctional relationship. She was aggressive, domineering, selfish, emotionally manipulative and an addict. Ouch. I am drawn to alpha men for sure. While I think it is too late in the game to change who attracts me, I can start looking for alphas who balance that out with introspection, self awareness, empathy and kindness. They are not mutually exclusive. When I meet this amazing fictional hero, I'll have him cloned for anyone who wants one. ;)

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    4. Gaby,

      I agree. Why do these guys even get married. I have lost my faith in marriage. My STBX said that his love for me was "true". I don't believe that. I believe that we were just both young and stupid. I agree that we all have issues from our past and our families growing up, good, bad, extreme and not so extreme. I came from a pretty normal family - had lots of love - but my family was still nuts with problems. It is time to adult up - you would think that when you cheat on your wife when your kids are little and it continues as a pattern - you might want to get help and try and be a better person? save your family? Nope. Easier now to just let a almost 25 year marriage slip through your fingers then get help and face your problems. I to look at my STBX with disgust. I have no tender feelings for him at all. I hate him. I can't believe I wasted my whole life on him. I don't think I could ever trust any one again because of him.

      Good plan to just have your kids and great friends! I am planning that as well! I am fine on my own, hell - I am always on my own, I was alwyas on my own. my SBTX is a pilot and was/is gone all the time anyway - I always did everything on my own - it won't be different really for me at all.

      But you are right - at the end of it all is just sadness that things didn't work out, that the man you thought you married isn't that at all, and that you put so much time into something that just ends, dissolves, and gets ground to dust.

      I don't think my kids will ever get married. They always make jokes about marriage and how stupid it is and how it always ends in divorce. What a great example my STBX and I have been.

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    5. Also deeply disillusioned. Despite our pre-marriage counselling and course, my h now (5 years after the wedding/ 2 years after infidelity) says things like he "didn't understand what marriage meant" (doh!) and "it's just a piece of paper". Anything to minimise the fallout from his selfish actions.

      Anything but adult. I don't want to say childish, because my 3-year-old has more empathy in her little finger than he has in his whole body.

      I do believe there are good and honest people who have the courage to wrestle with their demons when things go wrong. I am just so disappointed that my h is not one of them.

      Top life skills I would love for my daughter are resilience, empathy and self-confidence.

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    6. I feel like you are telling my story! Thank you for saying exactly how I am feeling...XOXO

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  3. Hey, SS! Posting first on a new page - it’s like being the first to crease the smooth surface of a new jar of peanut butter, isn’t it?
    I’m glad you’re coming back from the dark place.
    I’ve been feeling solemn, and your post made me smile. Thank you, sweetheart. I would love to get toasted and dream up some skank pranks. It sounds like just exactly what I need right now.

    Thanks for the music recommendations. I have some listening to do. :-)

    Wednesday night running-kids-around-everywhere-madness...!

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    1. Phoenix - skank prank!!! Love it.

      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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    2. Phoenix what an emotive simile. Yes. That fresh unbroken surface, uncharted territory! I am also 100% a fan of "Skank Pranks" For $10 you can anonymously ship someone a glitter bomb. Seems fun. Is actually pure evil. Or a prank candle. Starts out smelling like apples. Ends up smelling like poo. There's also "Dicks by Mail: which ships a whole packet of gummies shaped like penises and with a big letter that says "Eat a Bag of Dicks!" not classy but effective nonetheless. An envelope of mayonnaise. So many options really.

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    3. OMG imagine the revenue from this type of thing.

      Nothing violent just enough for them to know we know.

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  4. Hi lovely ladies it’s my turn to be glum today.. a few things on my mind, a friend of mine passed away recently my age, she died from cancer it hurt me hard we have children the same age and my heart breaks for her daughter who has been left behind.. this triggered death for me and the reality of how it hits us all.. depressing I know .. just a wake up call to me of how we only really have the here and now.. I’m premenstrual too so that makes me a little sad other than that I’m ok just tired. I have a friends birthday Saturday s cocktail master class so I’ll be making a few sex on the beach’s : ) .. looking forward to getting out of the house, getting glammed up and enjoying good food, cocktails and company.. lots to feel grateful for, in the wake of my friends death it again made me realise just how short and precious time is.. love you all xxx

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    1. Hi Sam A
      I'm so sorry for your loss. You have every right to feel glum. You have had too many losses of recent, and I am feeling for you.
      I hope the time out with your friends will ease the pain for you.
      Thinking of you and sending big hugs
      Gabby xo

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    2. Sam, honey, I’m so sorry. What a sad, painful thing. My heart hurts for you, and for your friend’s daughter. I’m sending you hugs and prayers.

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    3. Sam A,
      It's a real bruise to the heart, isn't it? I'm sorry for the pain you're in. And sorry for her daughter.
      Hang in there. We're thinking of you.

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    4. Sam A, I', a little behind the times here. I'm sorry you've lost a friend and for the pain you must feel at her passing and for her daughter. Of course it makes you consider your own finite time here.I think it s a sign of your big, whole heart that from that sad place you turned to friends and gratitude. Hugs and love

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    5. Sam A,

      I am behind the times as well. Just wanted to let you know I am sorry for your loss. So hard to lose anyone let alone a young friend. I was thinking of you.

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    6. Sam, I am so sorry for the loss of your friend and the child left motherless. It is so tragic when children lose their mothers before they had a chance to become adults. Your compassion for your friend and her surviving child will be a blessing for her daughter. I took on the task of becoming a surrogate mother to my two nieces after they lost both parents with the younger girl being 18 when their mother died. Now that they are adults, they tell me how much it meant to have me "there" for weddings, graduate school, driving cross country with one to go to under graduate school and an upcoming wedding." I never knew how much they appreciated my presence in their lives after their mother died but I am "Grammy" forever to their children.

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    7. Love to you, Sam A.

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  5. Oh, Gabby. It’s just so terrible and so wrong, the way this makes us question everything.
    I remember when my ex told me what he had told his brother about the divorce. He said he told his brother that he “broke my heart“. I think he was trying to convey remorse. And yet his words stick in my mind as evidence of how clueless he was and is.
    “Broke my heart”. I mean, it’s such a ridiculous understatement, isn’t it? Of course he broke my heart. But he did so much more than that.
    You can recover from a broken heart. But what about when someone breaks your faith? Breaks your understanding of love, of marriage, of friendship? What happens when someone breaks your ideals? Your family? When they break your past, as well as your planned future?
    I wish it were only my heart he had broken. If it were, I would be over it by now.
    After Dday, I questioned the very concept of love. I scoured the Internet for books and articles. At this point, 2 Years and eight months after Dday, a year and two months after the divorce, I still question. Love. Marriage. Is it all a myth, really?
    Gabby, I wish you had more answers about why he behaved the way he did. Maybe he saw a possibility that, with you, he could be a better person. Have a real relationship. And then maybe he just didn’t have enough character to see it through. Weak men don’t behave well. They lash out, they tried to put the blame on someone else so that they don’t have to face their own weakness. They seek out alcohol, and they seek out people who lie to them and tell them what they want to hear.
    My ex calls himself a romantic, and thinks that I am a realist. I’m a pragmatist, sure.
    But I think that we, all of us here, are the true romantics. We believed in love. And that’s why betrayal broke something in us, and it wasn’t just our hearts.
    I still have hope for the future, but at this point, hardly a day goes by that I don’t think about the brokenness. And how to mend it.

    Love to all.

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    1. Phoenix
      In my mind of a muddle at the moment, you said it so beautifully.
      Love and Hugs
      Gabby xo

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  6. Part 1.

    OK. I am officially ready to loose it.

    It's been a while. I didn't tell you guys that on top of him having his own account and not sharing his account information with me, he proceeded to transfer $5000 of our tax money from our joint account to his account without telling me. I found out by just logging in and seeing what money we had left. It gets better. A couple of weeks ago I tried to pay our electricity bill - The debit card was declined. He got new debit cards and also changed his account number. The $5,000 he said he sent to save for our mediation, and then he said he sent it because we were arguing about the reason for the separation (his GF) and that he was afraid he wouldn't see our little one again (what?). And then we were going over bills - he wanted to
    "meet" while he was home - go out to somewhere public. It sounded awful. He didn't want to fight in front of the kids, last time we went out he went mental in the restaurant and almost threw my food at me because I asked him why he was doing all this. I gave him the bills, thought he would look it over, we got to talking about it/arguing that he wouldn't pay this or that. and then he tells me that we are now going to have Lawyers in the mediation, that he won't do it without lawyers - the first I had heard of that. Every time I talk to this stupid asshole I am always surprised by what ever shit he has up his sleeve. Before it was just mediation without lawyers! But he just wants us to work together! He doesn't want hate or blame, just cooperation!

    Now - today! I see my kids on their phones, my daughter is playfully annoyed about a group chat - I ask what group chat. Their Dad is on Vacation! He is sending them pictures. This is the first I have heard about it. I find out he is in Cusco, Peru with his stupid fucking girlfriend! He goes on vacation, tells his kids, sets up a chat, all the while he is on vacation with his girlfriend - but hey - it's for his Birthday - so it's OK. We are going to separate so it's OK. Of coarse he didn't tell them that he was on vacation with his girlfriend. He just sends them pics and thinks it's great! I ended up telling my oldest and the third one - I told them that their dad was on vacation with his girlfriend. I know I shouldn't have. but I just hate the hypocrisy and I couldn't take it any more. I know we aren't together anymore, but we aren't separated. He didn't mention one thing about this vacation to me. but tells his kids? When he is going with his GF? I haven't gotten the vacation he promised me yet. He want surfing in February and now takes another vacation for his birthday. Here is what he texted me when I found out - duh - like I wouldn't find out if you are texting the kids: continued on next post.

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  7. _____________________________________

    I deleted all you wrote but I know this same old song and dance

    You say you don't care yet you constantly stalk me

    We are not married
    only under the eyes of the money grubbing family court system which seems like the route you keep threatening me with

    I am settling our situation up as close to what we will have through separation as possible

    I am paying all the bills
    all the kids needs
    The house needs
    The cars
    Everything and giving you extra
    so leave me alone about what I want to do on my Birthday

    PS. All the kids know we are separating except Ariella

    So spare me
    and they are all for it

    I sent photos to Elise and it actually got her motivated

    So enter your hate I will just keep deleting it and from now stop digging into my life
    Leave me alone as I am leaving you alone

    I just want to separate and be on our separate ways

    Because you keep stalking my attempt to be free of you you seem to think you are entitled to know everything

    You're not

    I Know what the courts will say but the courts are not real life.
    Just politically and money motivated machine that ignorant people give them power.
    _________________________________________________

    I don't know who is all for this separation. My Oldest Elise is having the worst time and hates it.

    Why can't he wait until we are legally separated before he takes his stupid fucking girlfriend on a vacation that I never got? Why does he have to do it now? Why does he continue to pursue this stupid relationship before we are legally separated?


    I am not stalking him! He is sneaking around behind my back before we are legally separated! I found out he was on vacation because he was texting his kids pics of his stupid hiking trip. And we are supposed to work together on this mediation? I am supposed to trust him? I am supposed to rely on him to go through this? What the fuck is he talking about!!!???

    I don't know if I can do this. I am in IC, but how much is one person supposed to deal with!

    I am not letting him in this house again. IF we are solidly separated and he is pursuing his relationship with his bitch girlfriend and rubbing it in my face - his days of hanging out here and sleeping here are over - even before the legal separation.

    So I lost it some more - I messaged his stupid girlfriend on FB. told her that we fucked through February and he was tempted in March to be with me. That he stays here with me and the kids when he comes to see them, told her that I am pretty sure he fucked some chick at our old neighbors house that he used to get escorts at not too long ago, that he cheated on me about 60 times and that he emotionally abused me for years. She seems to be all about women's rights and maybe this will hit a cord - IDK, I don't care - I just wanted to fuck up his stupid vacation.

    Please tell me how anyone is supposed to just not respond to all this total bullshit. So when I found out tonight that he went on vacation and didn't mention anything to me when we are supposed to work together and get through this mediation? How am I supposed to handle it? Not say a word? get fucked up the ass again from him? Be a good little girl and do whatever it takes to get through this mediation? I don't give a fuck about anything any more. I don't care what my kids know, I don't care if I show them I am going completely crazy - I want them to hate their dad and see him for what a pathetic person he is. How can I hold this in?

    I told asked him why he can't just wait. Wait until everything is done and legal. This is just like St. Louis, Montreal, Buffalo, Miami = he always went somewhere to see some other chick - whatever made him happy, married, separated, it doesn't matter.

    I just want to kill him. and her. I really do. I don't know where to go from here.

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  8. I guess my question is: how am I, how is anyone supposed to try and go through this mediation with a level head, to not give into the drama - when at every turn, there is something hidden or there are lies and there is scheming on one end without the other end knowing about it.

    Just let everything slide off my back?

    He has his own accounts that he won’t share

    He moves $5,000 without telling me

    He now wants lawyers representing us in Mefiation to protect his precious money.

    He tells his kids - but not me - that he is taking a vacation-when he never gave me the one he promised. It’s with his girlfriend.

    Just be a robot?! Hide all the rage deep down and not give into the drama and show that I am a human be with feelings just to try andhave the upper hand?

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    1. pt 1/2
      Oh Ann
      Your post screams to me with so much pain, anger, disbelief and uncertainty. Ann I so so so get what you are feeling and going through as your husband sounds just like mine.
      Firstly Ann. Do not kill the bastard. I know how tempting that is, but he's not worth going to prison over. Your kids need YOU. He can't be relied on, he's not around being a parent, so it's all up to you! (Many BW have had to do all of the parenting as our dead head husbands are not around).
      When this anger rises in you, go out and throw baseballs at a picture of him, go for a run, just do something constructive - not destructive.
      It's bad enough to have been betrayed and abused emotionally, but to add financial abuse is taking it to another level. If this was to happen in the corporate world, these guys would be imprisoned, yet, they are allowed to get away with it and people don't call them out over it? All the money that they spend on their fantasy life we can never get back. Society sucks when it comes to moral issues in marriages.
      This is my husband.
      After his first affair that I found out about, he was financially helping his whore. OVER ME AND OUR KIDS!!! This time with his "another whore" I sought legal advice. He was so angry with me!!!!! But stiff. As he originally was telling me and the kids, we'd get the house and be looked after, yet, once he came out with his new whore, we were no longer a concern for him. There's times when I have had to budget to the last cent, and scrimp for coupons and whilst he's been off screwing his whores, taking them on expensive dinners and holidays, we didn't have money for fresh food or utensils for the kids school.
      I don't know how old your kids are, but with mine, I never intended to tell them whilst so young about what their father did, but when he started telling them untruths about me and this separation, I decided to tell them some truths about their father - he cheated, he has had girlfriends whilst married etc. Of course he was not happy but I no longer give a damn what he thinks because he is full of contradictions and lies, and meanness, and narcissism. It has allowed the kids and I to have honest and eye opening discussions about relationships. You do everything you can to protect your kids, yet sometimes, there's evil in the world, and your kids have to know how to look out for evil. Even if that evil is someone that should be looking after them - their dad.

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    2. pt 2/2

      Basically Ann, as I sit and write to you, I'm screwed financially. No matter what I try to do for work, I will never be able to make what he makes. I stayed at home to look after OUR children, whilst he worked and had all the opportunities for his career to flourish.
      Ann. Other posts, it sounds like you are holding on to him, in hope he will change. I'm sorry it sounds like he will never change as he is continuing to be an asshole. I know how terrifying it is being on your own. Trust me, I know, but you can't go on being treated so appallingly by your husband. You need to seek individual legal advice ASAP.
      Ann, everyone's different, and I did everything to keep our marriage together for not only me but for our kids to have the family life they are also entitled to, but my husband didn't want the married with kids life. He wanted the I can fuck whatever I want life. I could not be around such a loser of a human any longer and be treated so appallingly by him so now, I am glad he's gone. It took me ages to finally be happy he's gone, but apart from the financial shit storm the kids and I will go through, he is not a nice/good person, husband or father, or role model to our kids - so good riddance. I will tell you honestly. Just this week I have been feeling down with the financial strain we are having to face. BUT. I do not miss him. His friends and family do not see him truthfully for what he is, but that's their warped problem, but me and the kids can. The people he is closest to and was supposed to love and protect for life, his wife and children, do not like him (kids love him, but also see how mean he is and do not like so many things about him)...and he's done that all on his own.
      Ann. please let us know how you are going. You are in my thoughts.
      Love and hugs to you Ann
      Gabby xo

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    3. Ann,
      Your rage is completely understandable. He is provoking you. But when you respond, when you let him get to you, you end up hurting yourself and your children. And I know you don't want to do that. In the short term, it's satisfying that have your kids turn on him, to hate him. But long term, it's really damaging to them. They need to be able to love their dad -- their self-centred asshole, cheating dad. They need to. Really. To be whole and to be able to also love themselves, they need to be able to love him freely.
      You, of course, are free to hate him. But, for their sake, you need to hate him out of their view. You need to box up that hate and dump it in your therapist's office, or in the gym, or on a friend's shoulder.
      In the meantime, you cannot mediate with this guy. He is not entering into anything in good faith. He has zero plans to be fair and reasonable. So you need to lawyer up well and prepare to fight like hell. This guy is toxic for you.
      But...again...you need to keep the fight in the legal arena and not in your home. Practice meditation, take kick-boxing, whatever it takes. Find an outlet for your rage. And realize that he takes perverse pleasure in poking the tiger and watching you react. You're playing into his hands. You look unhinged while he manipulates the situation to look like he's reasonable. Don't let him do this.

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  9. Ann I hear your frustrations and your anger, you are well within your rights to question money that he is taking out of your joint bank account and mention it to the lawyer. He cannot get out of financially seeing you and the kids right. He doesn’t have a leg to stand on that ground.

    He’s clearly trying to rile you by sending the kids pics of him on holiday, however you must try to stop yourself from reacting, count to 10, go fir a run, punch a pillow just don’t give him any attention whatsoever we know this man craves any kind of attention good or bad. Ann I know your not legally separated yet and I understand how hard it must be to accept that he has moved on before being legally separated but he has and this is something you do need to speak to your children about just try to do it with him present and in a calm situation. The children are just happy to have dad around and as long as he’s kerping to his share of childcare responsibilities then that’s all he needs to do.. he doesn’t have to tell you or his children where he is holidaying and who with I guess that’s the luxury of being single isn’t it? It’s shit Ann I can’t sugarcoat this for you but you must try to take a step back from this situation and let him be a dad to his children whilst you continue to work out what you want from your future going forward. How is you Ic going Ann? It seems to me that you really need to work on you, and you only right now. Self care is key when we’re feeling angry and out of our depth. Showing your feelings is good but not to him because he doesn’t care how you feel so why waste your energy on him. Focus on you Ann, can you get away for a short break with a friend or on your own, would your h look after the children whilst you had a break, you certainly deserve one after all you have been through these last few months. Ann please don’t forget how far you have come and trust me it’s amazing where you were and where you are now.. don’t forget that we all have setbacks and bad days but you will get through this and yet again you will come out stronger... sending you a big hug Ann .. we’ve got your back .. xxx

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  10. Part 1

    Thank you Gabby, Elle, and Sam A.,

    I know I can’t give him any attention! I know this! Thank you for the reminder. This is my biggest weakness with little or no support. I want him to feel my pain but he never will. I want my kids to know everything, to know what I am going through, to see their dad for who he really is, but I know it’s not good for them. I’m sure except for the little one, they all have an idea anyway. My oldest has the clearest picture and she hates it all.

    I am still working out a lot! I see my IC tomorrow, I am trying to work a lot subbing.....but it burns me up inside-he gets to travel the world and live the high life with added romance after all he has done - and I get stuck here in this small town watching over the kids? It is hard to count to 10 Or meditate in the moment. I’ll try running next time.

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  11. Part 2

    I know financially he will take care of the kids. He said he would share account numbers but that hasn’t happened yet. He is annoyed, I think, that he has to send me money and I will benefit form the separation. Money he thinks he worked so hard for and I never supported him in any way or had a hand at his success now. He believes that he did it all on his own and he deserves it all. Now that he is flying the big jets and finally making the big bucks-it’s all his and he wants a life and to be happy.

    He’s not dumb. He knows what he has to do as far as his obligations to us. I do believe that he is getting a lot of counsel from his friends that have been through their divorces (one is a millionaire) and he said he didn’t hire a lawyer, but he probably did.

    At first we wanted mediation with NO lawyers, but as he was getting more and more advice and becoming more and more money grubbing for what is his-his tune changed dramatically. He is now accusing me of looking at all I can get from him money wise-when I haven’t even begun to prepare for mediation and I am not that kind of person at all. Before he left for “work” last week-I asked if he paid the bills - since he took them over and changed all his accounts. He freaked - git so annoyed at the bills and the amounts and lashed out at the kids that they had to start paying for their own phones. It makes sense now- he was pissed about paying bills because he had his vacation planned - even though he claims it’s cheap-he was pissed that he was reminded about his life and responsibilities-accused me of dumping it all on him the night b4 he left when he was here for a week and a half and could have gotten his ass organized.

    I really think he is mental. In this Fantasy world of just him. It is scary. I think this is his version of a serial cheaters mid life crisis-he is a completely different person since December. Very cruel to me and doesn’t Even care that I exist. I’m just some burden to him.

    Did he really think that by telling the kids about his vacation and making it a big deal and sending them pictures that I wouldn’t find out? That I wouldn’t be bothered by it when we are supposed to be working together to go through mediation? How does this help anything? He doesn’t think rationally at all. If he told his lawyer that he was taking his girlfriend on vacation while preparing for mediation- don’t you think they would tell him this was wise?

    Add that to my heartbreak-I’ve been married to him for almost 25 years and hardly travelled. We went to Europe for our honeymoon, Jamaica shortly after that-Chicago for 2 nights in 2013 and that’s about it. This bitch fucks him for 4 months and and gets taken in vacation?!

    I need to get more information. I can not afford a lawyer. I just wanted to do Mediation and get it done quickly and with less $. B

    He is not going to stay here anymore. I don’t know what I can do to keep him out- but I am not letting him in this house. Last time he came here I let him have the bedroom and hang out here, eat, watch movies, play with kids. My oldest hates when he comes home. Never again. Never since he took her on a vacation and told me we are not married and to leave him alone and that he is setting everything up for our split. He will have to get a hotel and eat on his own or take the kids out-and start moving all his shit to Miami. Only if I go away will he be able to stay here.

    Sorry so long. Good thing I have IC tomorrow!

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  12. Hi Ann
    I think Elle's post 10th May, may be for me to really think about...perhaps you too, as our lives are so similar in so many ways. I too, never got the lavish money and attention that his whores have been given. How is it that I've been around for 30 years and get hardly anything, yet these bitches have only been here .05 second, yet get given the world - OUR money. I was always a better saver and wiser with money than him and contributed so much more before I stopped work to have our children, yet asshole seems to forget this. He seems to forget that I NEVER said "this is my money" unlike him who would always say "my money, I go to work every day....you don't work everyday".....He's financially incompetent and financially abusive.
    Ann. There is nothing fair about any of this, and whilst we have always been here, not asking for things, not putting any financial pressure on them, supporting them through everything, we just get treated like shit and discarded so easily.
    With our first separation, I let him come here for dinner, hang out with the kids too, yet he was still lying and in contact with his harem of whores, so this separation, I won't talk to him and I will not let him come into the house. Gone are the days of me being supportive to him in any form. (But this is me).

    I hope your IC session went well.Thinking of you.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. Hi Gabby,

      Yes. My IC Session went really well. I was working on putting bad memories in a box...but I went in there and just told him what was going on and getting it all out. I told him about the money and the things my H said to me. My IC reiterated that I have suffered years and years of emotional abuse, I think my IC is realizing that it is/was worse than he thought. He said that the financial abuse is bad, the affairs are bad, but the worst thing is the emotional abuse - it damages your heart and soul and takes away Ann. I have to realize the extent of the abuse as well - so that I can protect myself from him.

      We are so similar Gabby! From my mind to your lips! He pursued his career when I stayed home with the kids. Now he tells me that we should have put them in day care and I should have worked, or a Nanny could have done what I did or his sister - What I did with the kids was meaningless. I wish I didn't have to rely on his money to get away from him. I don't want it. I don't want anything from him.

      How did you get him out of the house? We are both on the title - I don't know what I can do before we are legally separated. I cannot have him here - My oldest hates when he comes here now and is always on edge. I have been pretty freaking nice letting him come here since December, sleeping here, eating here, hanging out with the kids. No more. Can you imagine - I would have to listen to him show the kids and talk about his latest vacation that he took with his girlfriend? No way.

      Thanks again for your replies. They help so much!

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  13. Happy Mother’s Day, my sweet, soft, ferociously tough friends. I am drowning in meetings and paperwork as we bring the school year to a close. But I think of you every day.
    Ann, like the others, I hear and recognize the screaming fury of your rage and agony. It is familiar. I understand. I’ll add my 2 cents.
    - Do not mediate with this man. Mediation should be off the table. He cannot be trusted. Seems like he makes good money - find a piranha lawyer and offer her/him a slice of the swag. You have nothing to lose. This man is not going to do right by you. You have to fight for yourself.
    - Don’t take his hateful words to heart. As strange as it may seem, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. He is blasting you because, deep down, he knows what an asshole he is, and he MUST avoid admitting that to himself. He has sold his soul and created a narrative to justify himself, and he will cling to that narrative with all his strength. He will bury that guilt and shame, and he will bury you with it. The man you loved is gone.
    Mine did this some, but he couldn’t keep up the facade consistently. He always broke down and admitted his own guilt. I have seen no sign that yours has acknowledged reality or shown you concern, empathy, or care. Which means that he is way worse than my ex. Honey, close that door. Close it HARD.
    - DON’T ENGAGE.
    I know it’s difficult.
    I know.
    But please believe me, it’s the best advice I was given.
    Compose a polite, unemotional little message, something like this: “This is a difficult time for both of us. Our emotions are raw, and we are only making things worse for ourselves and for the kids when we talk. From now on, I will communicate with you by email, to discuss the children and practical matters. I will respond to polite emails that address necessary subjects, and I will cooperate as much as possible while protecting my own emotional and financial well-being. I will not talk or text with you. I will not respond to any messages that are rude or accusatory. Thank you for your cooperation as we work our way through this difficult transition.”
    Wait until he contacts you again - and then send the message.
    And then follow through.
    You don’t need to do it exactly that way, of course. But find a way to disengage. It will give you time and space to lick your wounds and heal. It will limit his ability to manipulate you. Because, make no mistake, he is absolutely manipulating you. You cannot tell me that he did not realize the kids would tell you he was on vacation. He intended for them to tell you. He played you, and he used your understandably explosive reaction to bolster his rationalizations. He got to accuse you of stalking. Making you look jealous and unbalanced helps his case. Don’t give him any more ammunition.
    - When you cut him off, brace yourself. HE will explode. He will go crazy because he can’t influence and control you. Prepare to withstand some painful verbal abuse and scary threats, as well as (possibly) attempts to appeal to you and soften you up. Save all his communications, but ignore anything that isn’t simply practical matters. Don’t provoke him. Don’t try to enrage him. Be a very polite ice queen.

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  14. I realize that there are so many thoughts and emotions that you still want to share with him. But he is not worthy of knowing your true thoughts and emotions. He doesn’t get to see the real you anymore. He’s squandered that privilege. Give him cold and polite. And cry/scream/vent to people who deserve your trust.
    There is no real justice in cases like this. But the best way to get some satisfaction is to deprive him of the control, access, and influence he has had for 25 years. Believe me, it will sting.
    - I’m not going to criticize you for putting your kids in the middle. My experiences over the last two years have knocked a lot of the self-righteousness out of me. I’ve made choices that were not in the best interests of my kids.
    But if it were me - and I realize this is a very personal subject - I would have some “damage control” conversations with them. I’ve had to do this; it was a very humbling experience. I would tell them that I’m going through a very hard time right now, and I’m dealing with very strong feelings, I’m feeling a lot of hurt and a lot of anger. I’m making bad decisions sometimes, and I’m sorry.
    But I would tell them I will eventually get better, and in the meantime, it is not their fault and not their problem. I would tell them that I know they love their dad, and that is exactly how they should feel. I would spell out to them that, even though I may get very angry with him, and he may get very angry with me, they do NOT have to choose sides. They can love both of us, and we will both love them, and when we get our crazy adult crap worked out, things will get better.
    Ann, 25 years ago I was on the kid side of this situation. I knew way too much about the wounds my parents had dealt each other. And even though they never intentionally tried to turn me against each other, it took me years to heal from the scars. I have a friend whose parents were much worse. 40 years later, he is still traumatized.
    He was the one who told me: “Don’t engage.”
    You’re going to screw up. You’re dealing with a monstrous amount of pain and trauma, and no, you can’t be a robot.
    But I recommend that you explicitly give the kids permission to show love and loyalty to both their parents. Tell them they don’t have to choose. Give them your approval to love their dad - not for his sake, because he is a first-class jerk. Do it for their sake. This is a crucial time for THEM.
    I feel for you so. This is a rotten situation, and you don’t deserve it. Such complete betrayal from a loved one is an indescribably agonizing and bleak experience.
    That’s why we use imagery like warriors, tigers, and phoenixes rising, to bolster our spirits and get through.
    That’s why we love on each other when we are at our worst.
    This too shall pass.

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    1. Phhoenix - Ann
      So what do you do when their dad puts them second, and clearly it shows? Not all the time, but on occasions, the kids have seen his actions don't match his words - they have seen him put his new whore ahead of them. They have felt the betrayal too. They have been ignored. This was what got me into a relationship with my h, I ignored the red flags - my mom never spoke to me about so many things to do/look out for in relationships, but my kids are seeing it for themselves, so should I encourage them to have a relationship with their dad? I don't want them to go into a relationship without eyes wide open - I want them to see things, how I ignored them, I want to protect them from evil, I want them to see it before it strikes.
      So, I still encourage them to have a relationship with their dad, as it's the "right thing to do" and then when old enough they can make the decisions, but. We do discuss how he's acting and treating them. They are fully aware. They don't like it, they feel let down, but hey. I'm here with all the love a mom can give and more. They know I have their back. If the kids are old enough, conversations need to be a bit deeper, and especially if they raise an issue - talk. Yeah, I'm not always going to get it right, and Phoenix, I've told them that, but I've told them I have their back and I am here for them, I won't leave them.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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    2. Gabby, You are doing everything right. You love them through the pain. You validate their feelings around it. A simple "I am so sorry you're hurting" can go a long way toward giving them permission to feel their feelings, and also lets them know that you believe they are strong enough to handle their feelings, that the pain isn't bigger than they are.
      To live is to, at some point, experience hurt. But to have been taught by a loving parent that being hurt isn't the whole story is a gift.

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    3. And yes, Phoenix, we remind ourselves that we are tigers, warriors, phoenixes rising from the ashes. Because we are. Every single day of my life, I see women who are so strong, who have been knocked down and who refuse to stay there. Women awe me with their resilience. We are indeed tigers. And warriors. And phoenixes. We rise.

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    4. Phoenix
      This too shall pass is my daily mantra while dealing with my mothers dementia and other health issues! Wish I could’ve thought about that during the early days weeks post dday! Hugs!

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    5. Gabby, what a wonderful mom you are!

      And I am taking to heart what you’ve said about how they need to learn red flags, so they don’t embrace unhealthy relationships. I’ll have to chew on that, and consider it carefully.

      My main point here, though, is that I want to make those decisions calmly, over time. I don’t want to act or speak out of my own pain or anger. And I don’t want to set up an internal conflict in them, that they have to choose between their parents, that they have to take sides. If they have issues with Dad, I want it to be because they see his weaknesses clearly and are troubled and cautious - not because they feel like they have to reject him in order to be loyal to Mom. Their issues with him should be THEIR issues with him - they shouldn’t have to rehash MY issues with him. You know?
      That being said - I worry. He is a very loving, very charming man. His faults are not always easy to see. He snowed me, an adult, for years. He can probably snow his daughters, who adore him, indefinitely. I thought there would be no real harm done, as long as I never again entrusted any of their money to him. He genuinely dotes on them and likes to spend time with them, so I thought, why not? Just because he’s not a good husband, that doesn’t mean he can’t be a good daddy.
      I hadn’t considered, until you brought it up, that they might be influenced to choose a man like him.
      Well, food for thought. Perhaps, as they mature, they can continue to love Daddy as he is, while still seeing clearly that he has qualities that are disastrous in a husband. It’s a fine line to walk. And I think it’s something I need to consider carefully, and take time with, to be sure that I am not influenced by my own resentment.
      Your situation is obviously different. You’re doing damage control, trying to bolster them in the face of Dad’s neglect. It must be heartbreaking, and your fury with him is very understandable.

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    6. Phoenix,

      Thank you for taking the time for that detailed reply! It is exactly what I needed to read along with all the others!

      He keeps saying that he doesn't want us to hate each other and he wants us to be civil and get through this "mediation" . He was kind of nice about things in the beginning - like in March - he would say that I was a beautiful person and that I am young and in shape and I will be happier without him - but his attitude and his manner has turned increasingly mean and hostile. When he left a week and a half ago - I texted him about bills and he turned very mean about how I would have to start paying for things and helping out (which there is no point to now since he separated all the bills and we aren't really married and he wants to go our separate ways - why would I help him out now?) and then it went to how my working out is stupid and means nothing and I am old anyway and no young guy would want me, how I never supported him and he got where he is at all by himself. I gave it right back and saw through all his B.S. - he started the whole hate text mess. All I asked was for $165 to cover the bills from my account.

      You are right. Mediation is off the table. I cannot trust him, believe anything he says and don't know what he is hiding. I don't know how I will do this. I am going to email the lawyer that I had a consultation with and also go see someone here close by for a free 30 minute consult.

      Good advise on the kids. I need to at least tell them that I am going through a lot and having a hard time and making mistakes. I talked to my oldest last night and she is having the toughest time. She knows too much only because she has been stuck here for the past year - not in college. I believe she suffers from some emotional abuse from her dad as well - her self esteem is low or non existent and she has lost the drive to do anything. Like Gabby said - How can I not tell her that her dad might have a hand in that? How do I protect the kids from the person I know he is? I want her to go see someone but she won't. The other older 2 seem like they don't care and blow it off - especially my 16 year old - she'll just say I don't care - but you know they do. He opened up the discussion when he told me that all the kids know we are separating and are all for it. I guess I will just talk to them all and hopefully it will help. I don't want to have them feel any pressure to take sides or any added stress from this. I know I have to let them love their Dad for their sake. I've screwed up enough already and I don't want to screw them up anymore.

      I have to disengage completely! You are right. I have blocked him from my phone since last Wednesday (after he blocked me so I wouldn't bother him on his vacation. I will wait until he tries to get in touch - hopefully he'll send the money we agreed on - if not - oh well - I am not begging for anything. I will sell all his shit to get by and work more.

      This is long winded! I am sorry. I just want to do Mediation! I don't want to get a lawyer and spend all this money and take all this time and get the kids involved! Why is he making this a complete nightmare!?

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    7. Phoenix,

      "Don’t take his hateful words to heart. As strange as it may seem, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. He is blasting you because, deep down, he knows what an asshole he is, and he MUST avoid admitting that to himself. He has sold his soul and created a narrative to justify himself, and he will cling to that narrative with all his strength. He will bury that guilt and shame, and he will bury you with it."

      This helps a lot - but I don't think he thinks he did anything wrong. I think he believes he deserved that vacation with his girlfriend and he deserves to be happy. Do you really think deep down he is really struggling? Feeling bad? I don't know if I can believe that - I would like to but I don't know if I can.

      And this part, "But he is not worthy of knowing your true thoughts and emotions. He doesn’t get to see the real you anymore. He’s squandered that privilege. Give him cold and polite. And cry/scream/vent to people who deserve your trust." This hit home. You are so right!!!

      Thank you again for giving me this perspective!

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    8. Ann, you are welcome to any perspectives I’ve got. I went through a lot of crap to attain them; they may as well be of use to someone. :-)
      As far as your husband is concerned - does he feel bad? I don’t know, but my guess is that he is determined NOT to feel bad.
      I’m going off my own experiences, and the many stories I’ve heard over the last 2 1/2 years. I know that many men turn unnecessarily harsh and cruel In situations like this, which makes sense. They can’t live with the idea that they have crushed you and destroyed their family. And with their fragile egos - who knew so many men had fragile egos? - they need to see themselves as heroes, as protectors. Not as the weak, faithless, insecure men they are.
      Most men don’t do guilt very well.
      So they have to rewrite the narrative. They have to justify themselves, and make it your fault. And when you won’t cooperate, they can get nasty. They don’t WANT to feel bad, dammit.
      Your guy sounds like a master manipulator. He’ll flatter you and talk sweet, or he’ll try to intimidate you and crush your self-esteem - whatever works to keep you guessing, vulnerable, off-balance. He seems to want to be in control of everything, the divorce, the finances, you. He seems like a bully, Ann. Please be careful.
      You can’t rely on him, on his moods, on his influences. You have to rely on yourself, and develop your own protections, your own resources. I know it’s so hard to make that shift, to see the person you loved as an adversary. But to protect yourself, it’s probably time to make the break. You need to grieve your loss, and you will...but right now is the time to think on your feet.
      I hope you can work things out with a lawyer. Ask around, maybe you can get some guidance. I’m not much help there, I’m afraid. I was fortunate to have a friend who is a lawyer, and my ex did not contest.
      Praying for you and for your kids. Your 16-year-old - bless her, I’ve got one like that. She’s 12, and she acts like bullets will bounce off her - but she’s crumbling inside.
      It sounds like their dad is not above using and manipulating them, too. That means you are their safe place, their harbor.
      Take care of yourself, sweetheart. You can do this.

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  15. Well, Theresa, it’s pretty hard to think straight right after Dday, isn’t it?
    It’s a good mantra. And you are such a strong and amazing person. Hugs!

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  16. I didn't realize what day it was today until my sister, bless her, wrote me a text, saying she knew today might be a little rough, but that she loves the strong confident woman I have become and she loves seeing me excited about meeting someone new (things are heating up with my policeman :) ) and how she knows I deserve to be truly loved for the amazing person I am. And I had no idea why she would send me this message today. And then it dawned on me that it would have been my anniversary with my ex. It hadn't even crossed my mind!!! Just a regular busy day, started off at the gym and working my ass off on a big project and laundry and.. and.. and. too full of life to be recalling, let alone dwelling on the past. Wow. Just wanted to share this little victory with you all. Hugs and love!

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  17. You must tell us more about ‘things heating up with your policeman) I can’t wait to hear : ) .. when your ready of course..

    What ex husband!!! Victory indeed Love that ss1 : ) xx

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  18. Hi Sam A, honestly right this moment I wish I knew. We've had some nice conversations and interactions. Definite indicators of interest. I had an event where I could take a guest. I took a risk and invited him. And although he couldn't go, he was, I think, sincere about wishing he could go. Continued the conversation. Said he had been thinking about me. Just lots of good stuff. Even yesterday, I was obviously feeling good about it.
    But now I am making myself crazy. I know its me. Everything that was good two days ago is still good. But I got attached to the idea that he was going to show up at an event for the volunteer work we both do, last night. And he didn't. We had not discussed etc. I just had this little story I had woven in my head. He's been busy. He graduated from college on Tuesday. He could be working today. But we also usually interact on social media and there's none of that today. And I sent him a text earlier and its been a couple of hours so internally I am DYING. lol I am such a 14 year old right now. Not afraid of having taken the risk, but don't want to rush things and scare him off. And just because he's busy and or not interacting doesn't mean he's not still thinking positive things about me. An dhe may have his own fears about appearing too interested. etc. So I just have to ride it out and not try to ask mutual friends (who have no idea this is going on) for advice in order to ease my discomfort. I'm just going to have to be uncomfortable for a while. The good news is that I don't think I'm afraid of being hurt. I know I'll be OK. But I do think Ive woven for myself a story that I like very much but exists mostly in my head. A legacy of being the child of an alcoholic I think, and my weakness. I need to detach from a story that hasn't happened yet. And be open to the real potentiial this has rather than an imagined one. And I need to freaking relax. He's pretty smokin tho, and has an adorable gap in his front teeth and is an incredibly nice person. Crushing... lol. Pray for my sanity and for me to calm down again. I think I'm mid month so I always get a little emotional... :)

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    1. Enjoy the anticipation! It is so lovely to have a dream that has a chance of coming true. Hope he texts you soon!

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  19. We have maturity, wisdom, and experience - but to some extent, part of us is always 14. The dichotomy can be very disconcerting!
    SS, I hope things go well. I’ve forgotten what it’s like to be smitten with a smokin’ guy. All my post-divorce dates have been night nice, but not particularly exciting. I think I’m still reluctant to let go that way. And it’s hard to meet guys. I am thoroughly disenchanted with online dating.
    Go, girl!!

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  20. Y’all, things have been peaceful lately. I’ve even found myself thinking about forgiveness and acceptance quite a bit. But I have concerns.
    Ex says he’s undergoing radiation treatments. He says he’s scared, feels alone, talks about nosebleeds and headaches. He works part-time and is 1-1/2 months behind now on child support. I’m conflicted. I’ve seen him lie about stuff like this before - not cancer, specifically, but illness, accidents....on the other hand, even the boy who cried wolf eventually met a wolf. He’s involved his father and another relative. His dad certainly believes him, but bless him, he always would. It feels rotten to doubt him on this - and if he were truly ill, I would certainly want to be there for him. But...my instincts are bristling. My spidey-sense is definitely sending off warning signals.
    I finally took the bull by the horns last night and told him that we needed to get back on a child support schedule, or....he could show me documentation of his illness, and I would informally waive it for a while. He seemed hurt, but did not argue.
    The thing is, I don’t know that I’ve accomplished anything. I’ll probably have to bring it up again. And if he does get around to showing me something - how wil I even know it is genuine? I’ve strong reason to suspect he’s dabbled in forgery in the past.
    I know he’s in trouble. A court summons was given to me at my new house - not even sealed in an envelope. He’s being taken to court over a loan of several thousand dollars. It was information I didn’t want to know. I don’t ever want to be involved in his finances again. I’ve loaned him small amounts now and then, which he’s always repaid. Once, when he had no vehicle, I co-signed temporarily on a rental car so that he could take the girls - that felt like a really bad idea, but it worked out okay. Still, you see my point. I don’t want to be dragged into his financial issues. I’m only just starting to accumulate some small savings, and I’ve got a teenager and a preteen. I don’t need anymore drain on my finances.
    So I called the courthouse, and complained strongly about being given the summons, since I am not a relative and he has never lived at this house. They were apologetic and said they would restart the process. And they did - another server turned up at my door a couple of weeks later, and I made short work of him. And I’ve not told another soul that I saw that paperwork.
    Friends, what do I do? How do you confirm if someone has cancer? Do you try to squeeze child support payments out of a debt-ridden dad, or does it cause more difficulty and conflict - and distress to the children - than it is worth?
    His mother still doesn’t know about her own grandson. At this point, I almost hope she never learns - she will feel so betrayed. What bothers me even worse is that my daughters are witness to this, and I worry about the effect it is having on them. My older daughter even expressed concern the other day about my friendship with her grandmother. She said she thought that was one reason she hadn’t been told - because she loves me so much, and it made it harder for her to accept the skank. I feel like his twisted rationalizations are being internalized by the girls. I avoid criticizing their dad to them - but I may have to take a stand on this one.
    Didn’t mean to ramble - sorry, folks. Hugs!

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    1. That sounds really hard, Phoenix.

      Do you know his doctor? Could you find out from the hospital anything about appointments? (Would his children have a right to this information?)

      Was it his decision not to tell his mother about her new grandchild? That is putting a big burden on your kids- not fair.

      I hope things will get easier for you. It is so unjust that you have to worry about these things.

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    2. Thanks, Selkie. He lives an hour away, in a much bigger town with a huge hospital. He says he’s being seen there. I have no idea how to confirm the story. And yeah, he’s been telling the kids for months that he was about to tell their grandma - but it always got put off. It’s a pattern I know well. You’re right, it’s not fair to them. I don’t understand how he thinks. It’s not like his folks haven’t figured out at this point that the girlfriend is the reason we split up. They’re not stupid. I don’t know what he thinks he has to lose. Only thing I can figure is that he waited so long that the very delay itself made it harder to explain.
      Appreciate your kind words - hope you are doing okay.

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    3. Phoenix,

      I have never been in your shoes. Being the one who makes the money and that everyone depends on. It has got to be so hard that your ex is broke and claims to be sick. I guess you have to trust your gut, like you said. You know him, you know what he does with the lies and manipulation. I can imagine you want to help him but you don't want to end up being a chump.

      I wish I was in the power position like you are. You should feel so good that you can handle anything on your own, have your own money and have been doing it all.

      Take Care Phoenix!

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    4. Phoenix, have the court (or your attorney) obtain the proof of illness that he can not pay support. Don't do this informally. It's your kids money, not his.

      Delete
    5. This is some good advice from Anon 5/21, right here. Don't be "nice" or take one for the team. This is about your children and it is their money. Even if you can handle it and be fine financially, there is still a legally binding agreement and it needs to be altered in an official way, with real evidence taken into consideration. And the court/attorney proof will get you the answers you are looking for. I can understand why you don't fully believe him and his stories. He's been the greatest showman/ring master for some long time.
      I'm honestly angry on your behalf that this man still unloads emotionally to you or expects you to be there for him when he's scared. I'm so glad for you that you took that step and asked him to get back to payments and/or proof. Poo on him and his hurt. He's hurt that you don't trust him?
      The fact that he is debt ridden is his own responsibility, not yours and it is not your job to ease that or make it better for him.
      As far as your mil and not knowing about the baby and the girls internalizing his rationalizations. wow. that's a tough one.
      I agree that you don't want to trash talk about their dad to them. I try very much to avoid this. But when either of my kids make an accurate observation about what they know of his coping strategies, personality etc. I don't disagree. I just reflect and acknowledge. But I think when you notice them regurgitating his rationalizations, maybe consider a probing question or two that gets them thinking about how that may not be the only perspective?
      I think the reason he hasn't told his mother is part of his MO. He's avoiding dealing with anything that is going to make him uncomfortable right now. And as you mention above, now it has been so long, that the discomfort is magnified. Spread on a thick coating of shame and ta da! Captain Avoidance.
      Anywho, I'm rambling aimlessly.
      To the more important stuff. I love what you are feeling this week. Like you want to reclaim yourself. DO it! And be patient. It won't be linear. We all still have down days. But you get to make yourself be what you feel deepest in your heart. I think you are made out of love Phoenix. So let that shine.
      As far as the invisible work, why not make it more visible? You'll be showing them that through acts of service, you love them. And you get to teach them some life skills. I need to be better at this. Including my kids in making dinner, or even letting them be in charge for dinner every once in a while. I talk to my kids about budget and bills. They know that I am on top of that shit. And when they ask me for things, I'll often say. I would like to look at our budget and see if we have room, or we can plan for it and get it next pay cycle. I talk to them about how I have the bills and mortgage funded for next month etc. Make them partners in that is age appropriate ways. I try to make some of the household work a shared responsibility. Mowing the lawn is something we all rotate through. I make it clear that I need their help because I can't keep up with it all myself and earn money.
      be kind to yourself. Claim you. Detach from your ex even more if you can. I can still see him setting hooks for you.
      I think, in some ways, my path to forgiveness has been simpler. The OW is not around and in my face. But I've found lately that I don't feel the sting anymore when I look at old pictures or wind up places that were "ours". Everything is just "mine" now. Part of forgiveness for me has been forgiveness of myself and slowly coming to accept that I am and have always been enough.
      I still get anxious but now I can (generally) sit with it, recognize it, think that maybe the stories I am telling myself may not be totally true.
      Phoenix, I hope keep shifting the direction you are going. I want nothing more than peace and joy and resilience for you. XOXOXO

      Delete
  21. Ss1 I’d be exactly the same, I’ve got butterflies for you : ) .. I’m sure by the time you read this he would have text you back. Enjoy this experience ss1, take some ‘calms’if you need (herbal tablets) lol.. rooting for you xxx

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  22. SS, hope everything is well.

    Y’all, it’s been a strange week - strange in a good way. I’ve been feeling a lightening, a peace. I’ve been thinking about love and forgiveness, and finally being able to let go of the past. It’s a little scary, because in the past I’ve often felt better, and then it’s like a fresh wave of pain and anger hits, and pushes me under again. But hopefully I’m really moving forward. I’ve become increasingly aware that, 2 and 1/2 years after Dday, my kids don’t have a really clear memory of what I was like before all this. They’ve become accustomed to a mom who is sometimes subject to anxiety, to fury, to almost hysterical bout of sorrow. It’s who they think I am. Not that they don’t see the loving mom side of me most of the time, but still - I don’t want to be this person anymore, this person who is enslaved by the past. I want to reclaim my life, my personality, while I still have time left with my kids. I don’t want them tip-toeing around me. I thought for a long time that I was an example of strength- and in many ways I am. I am their de facto parent, I pay the bills, I feed them, I discipline, I organize our lives. But a lot of that is invisible work. They don’t see that. They see the occasional breakdowns, the sadness, the sudden flaring resentment. I’m struggling with this, because I don’t want to try to be perfect for them. But I do want to be ME, the real me, not the paranoid, tearful, resentful, broken me.
    I just have this strong feeling that it’s time to take my life back. I’m don’t fault myself - much. I was badly damaged, and I did the best I could. But I’m ready for the next step. I want to get off the Merry-go-round.
    I want to have some straight-up talks with my girls about right and wrong. And I want to forgive. Yes, her too. I want to break the bonds of the past.
    I hope that all make some sense. I hope I can keep my resolve.
    Hugs!

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  23. Phoenix if now is the right time to get if the merry go round them do it. Reclaim the person you would like to be. I’ve always known you as a brave, courageous, compassionate woman who puts her everything into her children. I know there is much more to Phoenix and you do too.. let us know how you plan to do it Phoenix : ) I guess this is all part of the healing process and I’m so happy for you .. it’s exciting.. your an absolute star honey and I’m behind you every step of the way xxx

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  24. Hey y'all, update on my guy situation. full steam ahead! I had definitely gotten myself all torqued up because I had not heard from him. I know I am an anxious attacher, and now that I know this, I can work with it and not give in to impulses of self sabotage or extreme/psycho neediness. Because, as it turns out, what I had been telling myself all day, on my difficult day last week, was entirely in my head.
    And the stuff I tell myself is absurd. That he doesn't really like me, like me. He's just super nice. Or that he's not noticed that I'm older (eye roll) and when he does he'll cease to be interested (I can thank my ex and his 29 yr old for that piece of luggage.) Or that if/when he sees me naked, he'll be turned off. And part of me is like this man has so many friends and is surrounded by an orbiting constellation of women (and med for that matter) - why would he EVER be interested in little old. me. All crazy.
    I'm pretty awesome. I know I'm attractive. And I know he likes how I make him feel. I've been something of a cheerleader for him for some time. He recently passed some important tests for work which can lead to promotion and I was so thrilled for him. I was one of the first people he told. We've had so many nice conversations via text.
    I was away at a leadership camp for a volunteer organization I do work for this past weekend (what an incredible experience btw!!!!) And the org is big on social media, so there was a ton and he was following right along, as he has been through that too. Sent me a nice message. Said he hoped to see me soon. And riding the wave of empowerment, I grabbed my courage and said, then we should just make plans. And we did! We're having lunch tomorrow. I am so excited and nervous. But I am really pleased.
    Confession: in addition to just nice conversations, we've also had some serious flirting. I enjoy this very much. But. More fears.. I am meeting him at his home tomorrow. I am afraid for it to get physical too fast. I know I am in control of that and that he will not force the issue. Part of me is ready to fall into bed with hum last week and part of me knows I am not ready to go that fast. I don't want to rush this and frankly, I need more time to build my comfort to have the STD conversation. One more hurdle with the potential for rejection. I don't think he's likely too, but you never know and I'm a little terrified about it. So I need let go of the idea that things will go too far too fast, by being swept up in the moment. Because I'll need time before I am ready to have that conversation. All in all though, I am totally looking forward to a time when I feel safe enough to be naked with this man. He's pretty scrumptious. And I also need to remind myself that someone who sees my real value is not going to be put off by the things I carry with me, or my story or the unfortunate STD that is a legacy of my painful post trauma 20s.
    So in short, me and this awesome, adorable guy I have had a thing for, for more than a year are having a lunch date tomorrow. I think he likes me pretty good too. And I think he might kiss me and I'm really good with that. :)

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  25. Thank you so much for your advice and words of support. Going through the lawyer is the best idea - I can tell my ex we need to go through official channels to de-personalize it. But no matter how I put it, it won’t be an easy conversation. Basically, there’s no way to get around it: I’m telling him that I think he might be lying. It’s hard to spin that in a positive way.

    Ann, there are advantages to being in the “power seat”, it’s true. I’m a teacher, so my pockets aren’t deep, but I have my family to fall back on in a pinch. He knows that. We don’t speak of it, but he knows that, between the unemployment, his record of drinking (even some arrests), and the fact that I have my family’s resources behind me, he doesn’t want ever want to go to court. My dad would love to have some things out with him in front of a judge. But nobody really wants it to get that acrimonious if we can help it (because of the kids), so I’ve tried not to back him into a corner. Sometimes he bluffs me, but we both know it’s a bluff.
    But I still keep every text and email, just in case. Don’t ever want to use them, but I’ve got them. I would think that’s where your advantage might lie. Your guy seems manipulative and mercurial. Hold him to emails as much as possible, so that you have a record of his promises and threats. Find out if your local laws allow recordings of phone conversations, without knowledge of one of the parties. Mine does, and it’s easy to install an app on your phone to record conversations. It’s really hard at this stage, but try always to present a calm, reasonable, non-jealous facade. Fake it till you make it. Don’t give him anything to use against you. I’m rooting hard for you; you deserve respect and a fair share of the resources.

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    Replies
    1. Hey Phoenix,

      I haven’t done good at all keeping my cool since I found out about their vacation and even worse when he got enraged that I messaged his girlfriend and went after me. He probably is making notes of all I have said and done and copies of what I have texted at The advise if his lawyer. I’m sure he has a lot to use against me. I have some pictures of texts and some emails. I have no high road to take I’m afriaid. Ever since December, I have been a crazy basket case when it came to him. I had a good stretch at the end of February, some of March and part of April When I was doing really well and had no to little contact. I am trying my best to do that now. It is certainly “fake it till you make it”........so many emotions about their vacation, how that was supposed to be our life now - traveling the world, now that the kids are older...wondering why he couldn’t just try one more time with me and get help, I know it’s all a waste of emotions on a guy that has hurt me so bad for so long - I am hanging onto his ghost and I still can’t let it go.

      But you are right, now is the time to think on my feet. I am going to make some appts. And go to some free consults and find me a good lawyer. That’s what I have to do. All this effort, time spent on this, the money we will spend. Stress, hurting kids... It seems like such a waste. All this is better than going to therapy and trying to keep your family together? Just trying that once! But for me I have no choice! I have to go through this.


      Delete
  26. Thank you, Sam!
    I kicked things off yesterday. I told the girls it had been a rough 2-3 years, and that I was sorry that they had had to see a lot of emotional ups and downs, but that I was ready to make some real changes and move on. I kept it light and pleasant. To demonstrate my good faith, I casually did something I had never done - I used the skank’s name. I never use her name. My older one asked me tentatively if I minded her posting a birthday message to one of the skank’s kids, and I said I was absolutely ok with that. I thanked her for checking with me first. A conversation is only a first step - I have a long long way to go. But it was a start.
    I also told them that I had never wanted to talk down their dad - and didn’t plan to start - but I wanted to present a clear picture of where my values lie. I didn’t want them to think, by my silence, that I approved of certain choices. And so I stated plainly that I did not approve of their dad having an out-of-wedlock son so soon after the divorce. And that I definitely did not approve of his decision to keep it from their grandmother. I wasn’t trashing their dad, but I didn’t like his choices. They basically said: “Well, duh. We never thought you did.”
    I hope I’m on the right track. I want to avoid doing any more damage, and maybe even undo a little of the damage I’ve done. I couldn’t have done it before. I wasn’t ready.
    I guess the next step is to use the siank’s name in a convo with my ex. I always stood on principle; said that I wouldn’t acknowledge her as a person until she acknowledged me; me and my existence, and my right to respect and consideration, which was so egregiously and painfully trampled and ignored. But now I’m thinking, who cares? Why am I still trying to punish these people? I don’t have any respect for her, but she shouldn’t be important enough to warrant a grudge. Not anymore.
    We’ll see how it goes. Having my daughters around her is still my Achilles Heel. I’ll take this one step at a time.
    When I stop referring to her as “skank” in this forum, the you will know that I have truly made progress. :-)
    Apropos to nothing in particular, but my ex is still stalking me on FB, even though he’s been blocked for ages. He doesn’t try to hide it. I don’t think it’s doing me any harm, so I’ve been letting it go. Making note of it, though...
    Where’s SS? I’ma go check the other threads. Hope all is well.
    Hugs!

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  27. Now I am dealing with the fallout of my stupidness of messaging my H’s girlfriend last Monday when I found out they were on vacation. I was hoping it just got lost out there somewhere.

    Since you all helped and I saw my IC last week I was moving on. Didn’t contact him all week until I had to for bills. Told him to correspond to me by email and that’s it.

    Until she apperently read my text finally last night.

    Of coarse my H texts me a bunch of hate, Insults, put downs and moved money that he sent to us back to his account. Turned off my phone. Messaged my brother, a bunch of crap.

    I wish I never sent that message. It wasn’t even mean - it was all true. I just tried to mess up his vacation.

    Now I have to deal with all this?! And he might be coming here tomorrow to see the kids?!?!

    I don’t know how to deal!

    On top of all this I have to find a lawyer and figure out how to divorce him ASAP with no money.
    —————————-
    Fast forward- he did come here last Friday. He rented a car and stayed at a hotel. He spent around $600 on both and then took kids out to eat and shopping all weekend. Gave them gifts from his God Damn Vacation. My little one stayed with him Saturday night which was fine.

    It was all such a mess. The kids were all on edge. He ended up moving a lot of his stuff to a neighbors house- his big computer, books clothes and stuff-because I had a problem with him maybe hanging out at the house and watching movies. He was afraid soon I would call the police if he came home and he wouldn’t have time to move out? I don’t know who is advising him- but they are making me out to be some crazed psycho for no reason. I know I was stupid about this vacation - but I’m not that psycho.

    I came home when he was moving stuff out and we fought. My phone was off, I couldn’t check how much money I had and didn’t know if I had any to spend while I Was out. He had taken back all he sent me for the last half of the month.

    I can’t do litigation. We are going to do mediation with our own lawyers. Of coarse he thinks I’m ridiculous about my concerns about moving money, closing accounts, changing debit cards, and taking vacations. I just want to get this over with. This will be the fastest way with less money and I will feel OK having a lawyer there to help me through. They will know if he tries to Fuck me over, or not give me what I am entitled to.

    I know it must have broke him up a little to leave at night while we were all there hanging out. On Friday night. I can only hope it hurts.

    He can’t afford to do that every time he comes to
    See the kids. He says he is going to get an apartment - but they aren’t cheap either.

    So much stress. Just when he comes to town to see the kids. My oldest hates it. The others just say they don’t care. He seems to think it’s no big deal-everyone is all for Our separation and it doesn’t bother them.

    This from a man who told me a million times how his parents divorce messed him up and still does to this day.

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    Replies
    1. Ann,

      I worry that you are taking on too much, the most important part from where I’m standing is the settlement of financial affairs so you don’t have to ask him for money every month and he can’t take back what he’s given. This has to be sorted out via a lawyer ASAP. The children are in contact with him so that can be arranged between themselves and their father. As for anything else Ann just let go of and please try to come back to taking care of you. Your spending way too much energy on these 2 people who have/are causing you pain they don’t deserve it honey. I’m glad you’ve asked your h to contact you via email, block him on text if it is causing you distress you don’t have to listen to his hurtful shit, only you can control what happens from here in Ann. I have faith in you, you gotta have faith in yourself. You can do this, make today the day you take no more shit!!!! It’s all about you and making positive changes in your life..

      Keep us posted Ann, big hugs

      Xxx

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    2. Ann,
      When you know better you do better.
      And you know you need to stay away from him because he triggers you BIG TIME. He knows which buttons to push. This is a dance you both have been doing for a long time and it's hurting everyone, including your kids.
      Stay away from him. Communicate with him only by text or email. Lay out the rules of what you will or will not tolerate (when he arrives and when he leaves, for instance). You've got to break this toxic cycle.
      You can't undo what you did but you can take steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.
      And please, for your own sake, for now stop trying to understand him and figure out why he is the way he is. Right now he's poison. You don't need to know exactly which kind of poison. It's enough to know to not drink it.

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    3. Ann, I agree with all the above. You will be sorting this out in your head for years, but don’t try to do it right now, If you can help it. Later for that. I know everything is coming at you so fast, and you feel so overwhelmed. But you do not have to handle everything at once, and you do not need to make all of your decisions right away. You set the pace, one step at a time. And if you are going to argue with him, do it by email, so that you can have a record of how nasty he is.
      Suggestion: you need to have an account that he can’t touch, where you can transfer money and he can’t take it back.
      You are NOT psycho. You are responding in a perfectly normal way to an extremely traumatic situation. Someone you loved and trusted has cut you off at the knees. All of your emotions are understandable and normal. Yes, you should not have texted the OW, but you know that. Somewhere out there, there may be a person who never did anything she “shouldn’t have done“ when dealing with infidelity and divorce, but I doubt it. If there is, she’s not in this group.
      Shake it off. If he tries to throwing it at you again, you can acknowledge that it was an emotional reaction to an extremely difficult situation, and you won’t be doing it again. End of story, let’s move on. They can get over it, they has no moral high ground to stand on, even if he likes to pretend they do.
      Remember, fake it till you make it. I’m not saying you should deny your feelings, definitely not. But vent them someplace safe, like here, or in a journal, or in exercise, or with a trusted loved one. But keep your distance with him, and her. Don’t show them your emotional underbelly.
      To them, and to every other outsider, you are the faithful, wronged wife and loving mother. You are moving on with your life. You will stand up for yourself, and take care of yourself. You will not accept disrespect. You will not be bullied. You would like to reach a fair agreement with the father of your children, but you will not be dictated to. You will consider the terms he offers, but you will participate in the decision-making.
      To the kids, It is best to maintain a courteous manner when talking about their father. Believe me, I know how hard it is, but it is best, and it will reflect well on you in the future.
      And in your mind, he is the adversary. Try to compartmentalize the love and the grief that is so natural right now, and save it for private times. Keep him at a distance. You have take care of you.
      He can flatter. He can lie. He can hurl abuse at you. He can spend the vast amounts of money to impress your kids. He can try to control you with finances and manipulate you with nasty surprises like that vacation.
      But one thing that he can never do is take away the truth of who you are. YOU are the good guy. The moral high ground is yours. You are the faithful spouse, the injured party. He can twist and turn and try to avoid that truth as much as he likes. But you know the truth. You know who you are. And you know what he is.
      Serenity. Strength. Determination. You are going to get through this, one step at a time. And when you finally come out the other side, you will have a fierce pride in yourself that you never had before, and you will have a sense of self respect that they cannot touch.

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    4. That’s a great reply from Phoenix Ann, take every word and run with it... Phoenix you’ve learnt the hard way and that’s why you can reply from the heart. You’ve given me some food for thought thank you my love xx

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    5. Hi Ann
      My how our lives are so similar!
      I am so angry at your h. What a selfish entitled piece of shit he is - just like mine!
      How they can continue to kick us time and time again just shows what low life people they are. It's bad enough they betrayed us and all that comes with that, then betraying us financially, is taking it to another level. I hope you have good lawyers Ann and you and your kids can get what you need and if that cramps his "style" too bad. You have to think about you and your kids - he clearly isn't.
      You are in my thoughts Ann.
      Much love and hugs
      Gabby xxxxxoooo

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    6. Thank you all! Sam A., Elle, Gabby and Phoenix! I so needed some guidance and you guys came through again!

      Yes-I need to get this money stuff sorted out. We agreed he would send an amount every pay check. I am going to open my own account and just transfer it as soon as it gets deposited so he can’t mess with it. And I need to get my own phone and plan. I had a free consult with a local lawyer last week and she saw nothing wrong with that - I have to look out for myself and my kids-protect me and them.

      You are right Phoenix! So I messaged the OW! Who the Fuck cares!! I’m still his wife! They do need to get over it-all the shit they have done to me? I won’t do it again and they have NO moral ground to stand on!

      Yes-I just need to focus all My energy on myself and this separation! I can’t waste time trying analyze him and figure out why he is tossing me aside and why he didn’t even try once more to get help. I will try to deal with all that later. No attention to him at all! Good or bad! I’ve been back on track.....he sent me some stupid pics of bugs in his condo in Miami - which isn’t very nice at the moment. I could care less! Why would he send that? Just to show me that his whole life isn’t a vacation and he doesn’t get five star hotels every night? - only on his trips? I didn’t respond at all! We have ants all over this house-didn’t even mention it. I don’t communicate at all. I used to send pics of my little one at school or if we were out or at the pool. I don’t even do that any more.

      He mentioned he wants to have the mediation done by August. I’m fine with that! I just want to get all we deserve including alimony (in my state-traditional ideals are considered when awarding alimony-like the marital misconduct of a spouse) with the help of a lawyer and get rid of him for good!

      I saw my IC last week. He told me to keep
      up with my boundaries. He said that I need to stop chasing him-moving toward him and go back to where I was - moving away from him-back to the healthy side - the opposite side of him.

      Delete
  28. Well done Phoenix, you must feel lighter for hVing that conversation with your children. You have every right to be visible and heard in this situation you have unfortunately been brought in too.

    I much prefer the name ‘skank’ lol

    Love you Phoenix . You are my strength .. thank you xxx

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    Replies
    1. Love my sweet Sam! Let us know what’s going on with you.

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  29. Omg ss1 I’m so excited for you, can’t wait to hear the ins and outs following your dinner date... report back ASAP : ) this is better than any drama on the box lol xxx

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  30. SS1 dating update part 1
    Hi Sam A, Here's the update. And it's good. We had our lunch date yesterday. It also included some volunteer stuff. I'm not sure if I mentioned bu I met my policeman through the volunteer work we both do with veterans. He was the regional team captain for a while but recently took a step back. Been going through a tough time and took a step back. So the thing he asked me to help him with yesterday was a WOD at an elementary school. A WOD or workout of the day is a specific workout done in memory of a soldier who has died (either in combat, or from suicide or other very sad things). My policeman has done this event for years. And he asked me to go with him. So flattered.
    So I arrive at his place and low and behold, he's both shy and nervous. So freaking adorable. I always see him as this outgoing person, but I think that's when he's up leading a group. I think one on one with a girl he likes, he gets shy, quieter. But. He did not disappear, if that makes sense. He was still emotionally present. Just softer than I'd ever seen him. He gave me a hug and a quick peck on the lips (this is new) a quick funny tour of his place and then we set off for lunch. We talked and talked and talked about so many things. From lunch there was a long car ride to the school, then the event, then the log car ride back. He paid for lunch btw. We did so much talking and laughing. And we just really enjoyed each other's company. I learned that he had been married for years and then divorced. Then dated a fellow officer for 6 years, was engaged, but that came to an end when he discovered her having an affair with a coworker. That ended just about 3 years ago. He admitted to being angry first but now having made his peace with both and being on friendly terms.
    So. I know at some point, in addition to the STD conversation, I know I am going to have to share ALL of my story with him. I will know when it is time. And I'll make it clear that I am telling him because not telling him, given what I know about his own experience with infidelity, would feel like a lie of omission. That I am telling him, so he can understand where I've come from and that I'm not that person anymore. And so we move forward from a place of honesty and trust (if he chooses to move forward). This was not something I planned on keeping secret from any serious partner, but it's a little scarier now. But also? I'm not afraid that he'll reject me. I mean he might, of course. But I'm more concerned about acting with integrity. And I have this gut feeling that he will appreciate and understand the gesture.

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  31. SS1 dating update part 2
    I'm also realizing that him being willing to show interest in me and go on a date is a pretty big compliment. I had been concerned, given his flirtatiousness and his outgoing in a group personality, that he was going to be something of a player. Turns out that is not even remotely the case. And it means that he, if I had to guess, is going to need to go even slower than me.
    We laughed so much in the car. He introduced me to some of his favorite country musicians, so I guess I will learn to enjoy that. It will probably only take one concert with him. ;) He got braver about touching me in the car ride and eventually got his hand on my knee. Another hug and kiss good bye and he let his hand linger on my waist.
    One friend asked if he held doors for me. He didn't. But I believe this is because he's a police officer and in some ways always alert. So he's not going to let me walk into anything or anywhere without first going in himself. Just interesting. And for me , the door holding is insignificant. I'd rather be treated as an equal.
    Oh, and we had originally planned the lunch for today. When we changed it to include the WOD, I teasingly joked that I had a cute dress picked out. As I left him yesterday he said "you can wear the dress next time." This is good news. He's thinking about a next time. And as much as I want that to be ASAP, I am going to school myself to patience and let him set the pace for now. Good stuff.
    I am enjoying myself immensely. And I really like this man. Will keep you posted!

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    Replies
    1. Hi SS1
      I am so happy for you. I enjoy reading about your happiness. It makes me smile, so I can imagine how your'd be feeling :)
      Keep us updated. It's like reading a romantic suspense novel...waiting and wondering what will happen next. Maybe your next chapter can be "that dress".
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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  32. Wow ss1, I’m really pleased the dinner date went to plan, you had a laugh and got to know each other some more. It sounds like he was easy to get on with which is always good, easy conversation, good food and a little flirting, what’s not to like??? Lol.. I’m chuffed for you my love.. so he’s suggested another date!! He sounds keen and there’s a chance to wear your lbd : ) ..

    Letting him set the pace sounds sensible ss1, I’m like you, I’m so impatient so we can learn patience together.. keep enjoying his company and take your time .. in fact this getting to know each other is the best bit so take as long as you need.. look forward to hearing about the 2nd date : ) xxc

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  33. Thank you, Sam, I love you too!!

    SS1, so glad to hear that things are going well! I like cops. I dated one a few months back - actually, he was the one I was talking about when I was debating over how quickly to move into a physical relationship. I’m sad about the way things ended with him, because he was a very sweet man, but I’m glad on the whole that they ended. I wanted it to feel right with him, but it just didn’t. We weren’t a good fit.

    Hopefully, you will have better luck with your Man in Blue. I respect and admire the fact that you want to be upfront with him. I think it is a good idea. But I think you have a little breathing space. Hopefully, the conversations will develop organically as the two of you get to know each other more intimately.
    Hugs!!

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  34. Thanks Phoenix, I'm sorry things didn't work out with your cop, but good insight that things were not right for you. I was kind of in the same place with the old "new guy" and his sail boat. I wanted it to feel right and tried so hard, but in the end we were not right for each other. And as I observed over time, he would rather be comfortable than courageous. Many of his choices were driven by fear. It got me thinking about how many of my own might be, because we notice things in others that we need to be mindful of in ourselves.
    I am absolutely on cloud nine about my man in blue. Have been carrying a tiny torch for him for some long time. I have to just now, be patient with myself and him and let things unfold. I know I don't need to be in a rush to disclose things too soon. I agree with your assessment that things will develop organically.
    And now, being a grown up means tough choices that are right despite being uncomfortable. it means knowing that with a new relationship, that has the potential to go somewhere I want to treat him and myself with respect and accountability and act with integrity. I will eventually, when the time is right, need to disclose my history, given that he's shared that his ex fiancé cheated. But it was always going to be something I disclosed to him. Not telling him, honestly, is unthinkable. As a recovered alcoholic with 7 years of sobriety, I'll hope that he will be open to the idea that I have been “sober” 14 years. That just like he is not the person he was 7 years ago, I am not the person I was last year, let alone 14 years ago.
    And holy fuck does the recovered alcoholic thing both appeal to and scare the fucking shit out of me.
    We have so many things in common. Both had an alcoholic parent. Both had failures in our past. I think, looking at his recovering from infidelity timeline, that we both had discovery and were deep in the shit at the same time.
    I'm trying to not spend too much time ruminating on how that conversation will go. When I do, I try to visualize my sincerity and his openness and it coming to a positive conclusion. I'm hoping that my being vulnerable and giving him the truth will be valued and bring us closer. Still plenty of time for all that. I have been carrying a little knot in my stomach since our weds. lunch. I know it will pass and that some of it is just my base level anxiety about this uncertain early stage of getting to know each other and where things might go. And lordy, how long do I wait for him to set up then next get together before I tell him that dress is languishing in my closet and needs a night out, lol?
    Phoenix, I hope you are feeling good. Solid. Like you've got ground beneath your feet and maybe it is new ground. Hugs and love!
    Is anyone on this thread going to get to the retreat? I think it is going to be amazing and would so love to see so many of you there! I've been saving so I can make it work, though I may be driving down rather than flying. We'll see what airfare looks like...

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    1. So glad this time is all so exciting for you, Still Standing 1. Enjoy it to the full! Your date sounds wonderful.

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    2. SS1
      I wish more than anything I could get to the retreat, but with the separation and asshole completely effing up our finances, I'd be lucky to be able to drive to the end of the street at the moment. Ahhhh
      I'm really pissed as I need this.
      I'm praying for a miracle.
      I'll be there in spirit.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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  35. had a bit of a run in with my daughter today and it really has me in a tail spin. I am very PMS, which means that i'm tired, headachey, dizzy, can't focus, moody and everything is bullshit. She asked for my help with something, just calling a shop to order something. But it gives her anxiety so momma bear does it for her but I am also feeling a but frustrated because she could totally handle it an I am busy and cranky. She's leaving to go visit her boyrfriend tomorrow. The thing at the shop won't be ready until after she leaves. Slight miscommunication and she starts to get mad and that's not going to work. And I snap that I am not a mind reader and am feeling frustrated because it would have been simpler if she had done it herself. It turned into a whole thing and she starts tee off on the guilt. How she won't ask me for anything ever again except for money, blah blah. I call her on it and say I'm not going to battle over text and we can talk later but she keeps going. And she says every time I ask you for help its a battle. This is patently false. I said I am sorry you feel that way but I don't agree. You just don't like it when I tell you no or that I've had enough. And I let her know that she needed to resolve the issue with the shop on her own. She responded with omfg just cancel it then. And I said no, you need to deal with it. and left it at that. But I'm already shakey and sick with anxiety. and I have a fever thanks PMS and I just feel like shit and I'm a little triggered by the emotional blackmail, because a) she learned that shit from me and her dad and b) its old stuff that comes form my mom that has always been hard for me to handle.
    And then I get into the negative self talk where basically I am shit at everything, especially parenting. I know that is not true, but as I mentioned above everything is bullshit today.
    And now I am restless and unfocused and I have some writing that needs to be done and I am struggling with that.
    Part of me wants to go run and part of me is like, you have a fever that's nuts.

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    1. SS1,

      I have 4 girls ages 22, 19, 16 and 9 and every day we are here together is a living nightmare! Even
      When there are just a couple her it’s a nightmare, When we go out, shop, whatever - Haha! I mean that in a funny way- sort of- Someone is always freaking about something and over reacting and spazing.....we all have our moments but it all works out OK! I know it sucks fo fight and have that tension-I’m having that a lot with my oldest. You are a Great Mom and it’ll all blow over!

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  36. Solid ground. Yeah, that’s what I’m working on. Being grounded. Sometimes strength means taking risks and fighting battles. And sometimes it means patiently laying foundation, slowly and carefully building a home. Financial security. An identity. A life.
    I’m ADD. I don’t do boredom well. But I’m getting better. It helps that I’ve had my fill of drama.
    SS, I can see where his being a recovering alcoholic would be scary. But I’m joyful that you are so excited. I pray that things go well as the two of you lay the foundation for a potential relationship. And enjoy the sparks!
    Y’all, speaking of drama, you’ll never guess. She texted me the other night. The only time she’s ever communicated with me before was when she sent me the picture of her newborn baby, to get even with my ex. The only time I’ve ever communicated with her was when I texted her because his phone has been off for 2-3 days, and his dad was getting frantic.
    But the other night she texted me, apologizing profusely for bothering me and asking for my help. She claimed he was threatening her and her kids, and she wanted to ask his dad to intervene, but she didn’t have his dad’s number. She said she would be so grateful if I would contact his dad and ask for him to talk to the ex.
    Sign of the times - my first impulsive reaction was to wonder how I could actually help. But after taking a few minutes to think about it, I texted back that, while I was not unwilling to help, I did not think calling his dad was the best option. It would distress his dad, and make the ex angrier. Since ex was not even in the same town with her, I recommended she block him until things cool down. She thanked me and apologized again. I wished her well.
    I know, right??

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  37. So...
    I know my ex can be a real jerk sometimes. And he can be quite hostile. But I have never known him to threaten children.
    He probably was being an ass. Maybe she was being equally as bad, I have no idea. But the whole communication seemed manipulative to me. Why would she bring his dad into it? Why on earth would she bring ME into it? It was almost like she was “tattling”… but maybe I misreading.
    Remember, this is the woman who appealed to my ex’s hero complex by saying that her husband was abusive. The husband who now has joint - possibly primary - custody of their kids. My best and most honest opinion is that they are both falling back into old patterns. He is trying to bully and intimidate. She is being passive aggressive, and playing damsel-in-distress. Seems about right. But who knows?
    I was perfectly OK with all that. The next part, I’m not so sure about. See, my ex called me right after the texting conversation I had with her. No particular reason, he said, he had just had a rough day. And although I wavered about it for a while, eventually I told him about the conversation. Reasons: First of all, I figured, if she had really expected me to contact his dad, then she clearly hadn’t intended for our communication to be a secret anyway. Second, it occurred to me that, if I didn’t tell him about it, she might tell him, and try to use it against me. Not a major consideration, really, but my ex can be paranoid about people talking about him behind his back. Why give her something to hit him over the head with in their next argument?
    Honestly, though, I was not entirely comfortable with my decision. But I don’t think I would have been comfortable either way, and it’s not my fault I was put in the middle. I emphasized to him that she had been extremely polite, that I was not upset, and that no harm had been done. I suggested that he wait until the next day to talk to her, to give himself time to calm down. Of course, he didn’t take my advice. And of course, she hadn’t taken my advice about blocking him. So a few minutes later, he was calling me back to confirm her story about what she had said. Good Lord. I told him what she had said, and then I told him that I was tired and cranky and going to sleep. And I did. I went to sleep feeling extremely relieved that this drama was no longer my life. Not my circus, not my damn monkeys, and I’m riding my tiger out of here.

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    1. Phoenix, wtf is happening down there? that is so crazy that she reached out to you. And messed up that things are such that she had to come to you for his dad's info. An dI'm not clear on who is threatening her. Your ex, her ex, both? Sounds fully like she is projecting her past stuff onto her current situation...
      But it sounds like you handled it with your usual and amazing quantities of grace.
      But also wow. I'd be looking for the hidden video cameras to see if i was being punked.

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    2. I don’t know, SS. Gets pretty humid down here in the summer; maybe the heat is making them crazy. Pretty soon we’ll start feeling like we’re in a Tennessee Williams play.
      She said my ex was threatening her. Hell, I don’t know. He never physically threatened me -
      although he said some pretty nasty things during the divorce, and he does try to bully and intimidate when he’s really angry. It got worse during the divorce, of course, But we always seemed to find a balance again, eventually. Who knows what their dynamic is like?
      I’m just glad I’m in a place where I find it sad and silly, rather than upsetting.
      Maybe it’s catty of me, but I can’t help wondering if playing victim is how she deals with conflicts. I always thought it was weird that her so-called abusive husband has full rights to the kids, and stayed friends with all her immediate family members. But again, what do I know?

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    3. Phoenix! As SS1 said - WOW. I would not have handled that well at all! You truely are a Phoenix-rising above all that crap!

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    4. Thanks, Ann, I’m trying!
      But I’m 2-3 years out now, so it’s easier. I’ve had my spastic moments in the past.
      You’ll get your equilibrium back, too, eventually.
      :-)

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  38. I just read the post about your daughter, SS. That sucks. I know how awful that can feel, and how you second-guess yourself as a parent.
    If it helps, emotional manipulation is a fairly universal thing with mothers and daughters, I think. It’s not necessarily COMPLETELY a carryover from your relationship with your mom. Come to think of it, I’ve had conversations with my dad that sounded a little bit like that.
    I know it feels horrible now, but I bet the two of you will talk it out when you are calmer. Ugh, It’s so tough to deal with life when you don’t feel good physically.
    My 14-year-old and I have made an art of arguing, I sometimes feel. That girl is extremely emotional. But it’s the kind of arguing where we both know that in 10 minutes we’ll be fine and the argument will be completely forgotten. And I’m still firmly in control. It’s a different dynamic with an adult child.
    Feel better, friend!

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  39. I went for a short easy run in the sunshine last evening. Cleared my head and I feel so much better. Horses, saddle soap, leather and clouds of honey suckle, rain standing in puddles and I might have seen Grizzly Adams ride by on a bicycle. My trail is so good for me.
    My intent was just to walk, but once I got moving I started to feel better and it was just about moving not working hard.

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    1. Good for you! So many of us have unhealthy coping strategies. Yours is awesome. :-)

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  40. Thank Phoenix. I also ate a big piece out of a Nestle Crunch bar too, sooo...
    ;) Healthy and slightly less healthy coping.
    And also thank you for your thoughts re my daughter. Everything is fine now and we're both Soo PMS. It seems inevitable that we would clash. But I appreciate knowing that the blackmail etc is tupicty teen age stuff and not solely chalked up to growing up in disfunction junction.
    And I've decided that I'm giving the guy until tomorrow to make the next move, then I'll take a next step. It seems like so far, he's been shy to act until I smooth the way a little. And I'm a grown assed woman. All the old fashioned dating advice has been completely wrong so far. So I'll ask for what I want . Trying to breath and wait a tiny bit longer .

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  41. Teenagers can be very manipulative can’t they ladies?? My 14 year old son says things that can literally bring me to tears and he doesn’t even realise the hurt he causes. An example we were driving today and he said’ Mum your just like my dad, your arrogant! I didn’t ask why he thought that I just went straight to defence mode and told him how he made me feel. I wanted to burst into tears I was nothing like my h and especially not arrogant. Half an hour later when we were sat eating a McDonald’s I asked what he meant by me being arrogant and he said it was how I spoke to a shop assistant the day before. I realised there had been Mia communication between me and my son I wasn’t being arrogant I was speaking to someone else when the shop assistant had tried to talk to me and my son thought I was ignoring him. Anyway it made me realise that they don’t always mean what they say, if that helps ss1.like you Phoenix we were friends 5 minutes after : ) the joys of parenthood hey ladies xx

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  42. Ladies just to let you know my divorce came through 17 days ago I was getting used to the idea before I felt I could share the news.. I’m taking it better than I thought I would. He seems to be doing the same. We have a 3 month waiting period just in case we want to reconcile but I don’t think that will happen, I think we both know this is right for us although the right decision doesn’t always feel like an easy decision. It hurts a little I’m used to going back to what I know, that security blanket I guess but I know long term it’s unhealthy and we both need to move forward separately. The 3 month cooling off period is s really good idea it gives us both time to digest what has happened, time to grieve our loss and more importantly time to heal. I have a real respect for anyone who’s been through this ss1 and Phoenix you have my sincere respect this is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do and I thank you both for all your words of wisdom and grace.. I might need some tlc the next few weeks ladies . I’m taking each day as it comes and praying god will make this path as least difficult as possible.. I’m going away next Sunday with the kids for a week it’s come at a really good time for us to just spend some quality time together.. I’ll be fine, ex h will be fine and so will our children.. maybe not today or tomorrow but in time I’m certain we will look back on this and realise it was for the best...


    Thank you all .. lots of love xxx

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    1. It must be so hard Sam A.! I am
      Thinking of you. I am not looking forward to that day-even though I know it is the right path for me as well. Take care of you and enjoy your vacation!

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    2. Sam A
      Thinking of you and your boys and sending big hugs.
      Gabby xoxoxoxoxo

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    3. Sam A--the right thing is not always the easy thing so I'm right there with a hug girl.

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  43. Oh, Sam. I’m so happy/sad for you. It’s really a huge mental and emotional adjustment, even when you know you are doing the right thing. You are on my heart. Hugs!

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  44. Sam A, Thanks for sharing. I had tears in my eyes a little. Mine was just final in Nov. and I still recall the mixed feelings. So hard, even though it is right. You sound really good. Like really connected with what is happening and giving yourself time. Take all the time you need to grieve and heal. We've got you. Come here and be sad at any time. I'm here with all my crazy all day long and you ladies always have my back.
    Hugs!!! xoxoxo

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  46. Thank you ladies, means so much.

    Love to you all xxx

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  47. Thank you gabby, you ladies are always in my thoughts. My friends whom I’ve never met but have such a special place in my heart.. xxx

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  48. I think unpuberty is going to kill me. My PMS is getting so bad and it is all anxiety and low blood sugar. I have been so anxious for many days. Better now that my period, such as it is, has started. But holy crap. It doesn't help that things are going really well with my policeman. And appropriately slowly. But man my anxiety about the disclosures I'll have to make to him. I have had to go back to some of my early anxiety meditation lessons to recognize that I am telling myself catastrophic stories. And for all I know everything will be fine. My fear of rejection is very high for a couple of reasons. One the biggest is that I have never gotten the love I needed from my alcoholic mother. Wow. there it is. And also, I know how big the pain of infidelity is and my past may just be a deal breaker for him. On the other hand, he's very kind, has a soft heart and is very much a God fearing man. I am hoping he is into that big forgiveness that comes from God and hoping that he'll take me now into more consideration than me 13 years ago.
    Guys, what if you were dating someone, and things were going great and then at some moment after you'd known him a while, he shared with you that he had been unfaithful to a past partner? What if it was clear that he was truly remorseful and being accountable by telling you? Would that be a deal breaker? Just scary AF but you'd keep an open mind? What is he offered to let you have access to his phone and emails after disclosing this thing from his distant past?
    I actually took a post I wrote about my story and have turned it into a letter for him. Not to give him any time soon, but I'd love to post it here and get your opinion. Like if you read this, what you would be thinking and feeling? I get none of us are men, but I'm struggling a little with this hanging over me. And the problem is I have definitely let me feelings get ahead of me. I need to remind myself that this is some story telling too and not all of it is real. I just have such a good feeling about this person and have known him in some ways for more than a year. I have to trust that if it is going to work out then it will. but holy shit am I feeling vulnerable and worried. Worry is like my hobby or something. Just looking for words of wisdom, insight, hugs, love whatever you can spare. XOXOXXOXo

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  49. Ss1, breathe my love, meditate do whatever you need to just bring you back down to earth and keep your feet firmly on the ground. I think at this point in your relationship there is no need to tell all, I think you need to just enjoy getting to know one another and that will be difficult when your second guessing every next step. Just relax, enjoy his company and come what may. You’ve made me anxious just listening to your anxiety : ) .. seriously though I’m telling you as a friend and a sister just don’t do or say anything until you feel the time is right. And you’ll know when that time is : ) .. I get what you mean about the pms though ss1 I am a raving lunatic a week before I start and a week after : ( flipping nightmare isn’t it!! Let go of what you can’t control and enjoy what you can..

    Love you lots xxx

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  50. SS-1 I will give you my "pre being cheated on" experience(s) and my mindset. I was dating a guy a million years ago who told me that he got divorced because his wife actually told him that "she was done with sex forever" which NOW sounds like BS to me. In response he told her that if she continued to feel like that then he was going to have to go outside the marriage to get what he needed. Looking back I am still pretty sure he was single the few times we dated..God I hope.
    I was not phased by his solution (he told her after all) but again, looking back, I now think that line was bullshit. Then, nope, did not phase me. In fact I thought she was probably an ogre (remember that is my pre cheating mindset)

    A good few YEARS into our relationship, my H told me that he had a former girlfriend who was a "slapper" she constantly slapped him (on the hand, on the arm, the leg, lightly on the face when she was upset) and he started to slap back. Now by that time i saw without a doubt that I was not with a man who would ever ever lay a hand on me- and -he has never ever ever laid a hand on me (although he did get pretty gymnastical trying to get his burner phone away from me on DD2).Had he told me that sooner, I am not sure what if any signs I would have been on guard for, or if i would have looked for any at all. It was and is totally incongruent with who he is (the little matter of cheating aside).

    I add that i have a geographically distant male friend who had been married a few years and he had the gall to ask me if he could bring this "other girl" to our house, to get it out of his system. He was having a freeking affair. I was aghast-and SO WAS MY HUSBAND. We both agreed that cheating was horrible and a deal breaker. I don't ever remember having a cheating conversation with the H about his own fidelity. Most of his girlfriends had been a bit short lived--a year or two at the very most and a bit tumultuous. But you know what I thought? I thought he was a player who gave it all up for me. stupid fucking me.

    I never thought to ask about hookers. I think if he had told me he had repeatedly paid hookers before he met me I may have run.

    Now your cheating history is ancient history. Plus you have now gone through it and have seen the damage it does. It's a freaking eye opener, right? You have really learned and searched it out. It's the same thing he has done with his AA experience and I am sure he has HARROWING stories that can put us all to shame. I think someone who has gone through what he has gone through will be very open to you being forthright and upfront with him.
    One thing to research is how guys read letters. I understand that their time/attention frame is TOTALLY different than ours and the honestly cannot take it all in when we pour our heart out on the page. (for reference check out the "we were on a break" letter from rachel to ross in friends--hilarious) For all I know, which is not much, It could be very different if it's a 'love letter' of sorts, but I have read they can be overwhelmed by too many emotional words on a page (the studies i saw had to do with e-mail and not a written letter) and writing back was a daunting task.

    This lead to more than a few hard feelings when we were serious but out of the "dating" phase. He had no clue how to respond.
    I'm not sure how or if that helps, but I think I know this for sure, I don't know a man who could have sat through what I just wrote, even if it was for him, and a typical guy could never survive a string of comments here on BWC. lol Now--love, hugs and wisdom to you SS1 ;o)

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  51. One more observation. I have talked to a close friend and my reiki bob/ dad guy and both asked me to consider not telling my policeman about my past. They said its in the past. You know you are not going to do that to him. Leave it in the past. Neither have ever experienced infidelity.
    I don't know gang. I don't think I could be in a relationship, especially one where I know he has been hurt in this way and not be honest with him. I don't need to go into gory details and retraumatize the poor man, but I do need to be truthful with him. And I can only hope he'll understand that i'm different now. I need to go back and rewrite my letter and take out the awful fullness of it, make it short and to the point, I think. But real. This is what I did. It was awful. I came clean and did my best to make it right. I've done a lot of work to make sure I understood why and to ensure I will never be that weak again. I'm telling this to you because I will not lie to you and I'd rather risk losing you than risk hurting you. Now I think I'm going to go and have a good cry. I'm so afraid that no good man, and in particular this good man, is going to want me. But I also have to be able to show up with my full story and be accepted. fuck ... I'm going to be useless for weeks until this gets resolved or I develop better coping strategies. Definitely no alcohol for me for the foreseeable future.

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  52. This is a tough one for me.
    My best friend, a person I love, was unfaithful to her husband repeatedly and caused great trauma and pain to her family. She was immature, passive aggressive, and a queen of rationalization. She has made such an effort to be true to her second husband (of 17 years) that she won’t even tell him a lie. She sees it as a slippery slope.
    So I know that a person can acknowledge the pain they’ve caused, and they can change. But even with that insight, I would be extremely reluctant to start a relationship with a man who had cheated.
    If he told me about it himself, and was able to comprehend - and take responsibility for - the pain he had caused, that would help.
    If he had experienced betrayal since - as you have - that would also make me feel safer.
    Access to his communications wouldn’t really help. It would be weird, for one thing, in a fairly new relationship. For another thing, I know perfectly well that are many ways to communicate, and if a person wants to hide something, they can.
    I hope I don’t sound judgement. I have never been able to seriously contemplate the idea of infidelity, but I’m not sure I can attribute that to virtue. I was deeply scarred by it at a young age, and so I’ve always had a more inflexible attitude about it than most, even before I was betrayed. I knew the devastation it caused too well. I don’t know what person I might have been, what choices I might have considered, if my original family had not been destroyed by betrayal.
    SS, my feeling is that you shouldn’t try too hard. I know it’s hard to hear, because this new relationship is important to you. But your history has made you the person you are today. He is either going to accept that person - or he isn’t. And most of that decision will have more to do with him than with you. I don’t think there’s anything you can, or should, do to influence him. Honest and open communication is essential, but beyond that, just give him the space to figure it out, and answer any questions he has. I can feel your tension and your fervent desire to make this work, and honey, I want it for you too. But I don’t think there’s anything you can do, aside from being yourself.
    I know I talked about letting things happen organically, but if this continues to worry you and hang over your head, maybe you should initiate a conversation. He may not have a response for you right away. Put it out there and let him consider it.
    Hugs, sweet friend.

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  53. Did you stop to think that some of your PMS is related to the damn word menopausal? OMG! Mix that up with betrayal and divorce and just trying to survive??? OMG! I’m surprised that you can spare him a thought given that you are still a mom and enduring those years! Just breathe! Out of the many that I know here, you have it down pat! But you never give yourself the credit for that! When the time comes to discuss your stuff, he’s already given you his, but, not probably everything! He’s a man! Probably a very good man! That’s been hurt himself! Breathe! You can have the patience because you are a warrior! One that has survived your childhood and all the other bullshit! I know you got this!

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  54. Thanks everyone, I so appreciate your show of support and honesty. I have mostly gotten myself back down to earth. And realize that I can pick my time, when the time is right. It is so early and his disclosure and my perimeno pms (hellz fucking bellz btw) had me triggered and I was really back in something. A combo of finding out and having to tell. Writing the letter helped but I don't think I am going to give it to him to read. Especially, after your advice Steam. I need to just tell him short and sweet. He's big into Jesus guy, so I'm hoping it means he's big into the power of forgiveness. And. And. I just need to breathe and let things happen. Part of my anxiety is just over the uncertainty of this very new phase of whatever it is we're doing. Can't even call it a relationship because we're texting and have been on one lunch since acknowledging our mutual interest. There's a long way to go. And Phoenix, you are right, I can't and shouldn't try to control the outcome. I am going to have to trust that he's as awesome as I think and see and value me for who I am now. And if not, I'm going to have to trust that I'll be OK after being sad for a while.
    I am 100% sure that some of the intensity of my anxiety is the new and improved perimeno pms. I might need some Valium or whatever the safer modern equivalent is. Very proud I got myself through with ass loads of meditations, running (until the cramps kicked in) and zero booze. Yay me!
    The hardest thing I've got to deal with right now is my own head playing that future conversation in my head over and over. it's like dday mind movies all over again. I'm really taxing my "let it rise and pass" abilities. The thing that keeps tweaking my panic button is how slowly he's going. I am afraid this is a function of how hurt he was/is vs. him just being shy. So I'm afraid the degree of hurt equals instant rejection at my disclosure. But. I'm just going to have to get to my feet and be truthful (the only option) and deal with what comes.
    Add to that massive headaches and general weakness and the shakes, despite eating and I think I need to visit the gyn for a wtf can I do about this every month?
    So all of you who pray, pray for me, just for peace and some positive outcome (not I'm not saying what that is because I don't always know what is best for me :) ) Those of you who send out good vibes, please do the same. Everyone else, send me invisible high fives.
    Thanks so much everyone who responded. I was in a really, really, really bad way. Was so convinced that disaster was inevitable. Now I recognize it is only one, uncomfortable outcome. I've done some reading online about this very subject (there is stuff written about everything online) and lots of people say/agree that people can and often do change amazingly, especially if there has been a trans-formative event. I've definitely had one of those. It just made me feel better that the whole world was not lined up against me and that there were women like me who had gone on to find happiness with a decent human. I'm mad at myself for assigning too much importance too soon to this particular decent human.

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  55. Love you ss1, bigs hugs, high fives and lots of prayers coming your way my friend : ) .. you sound like me on a normal day lol... xxx

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  56. Hi all, still breathing over here. Doing so much better. And I am more and more sure that some of my anxiety was just bad timing due to the PMS and the physical symptoms that "feel" like anxiety. Thank you God (and all of you), for helping me stick to me resolve to take no action other than self soothe while I was in that crazy state.
    Because today I am really about as Ok as I get. Aware that I am an anxious attacher and that the longer I go in between touch points the more my anxiety escalates. Rather than expecting him or someone else to fix that for me, I need to manage it myself with meditating, running, weights, talking with my sis, writing, doing photography, dealing with some of the other sources of anxiety in my life (like work, home tasks that are piling up etc.)
    Wow, I can't really explain how hard and uncomfortable the last few days were. But I'm proud I made it even though it was messy. I did no harm to myself or others, lol.
    I resisted the urge to triangle in a third party to offload and deal with some of my angst. I had this big urge to talk to a mutual friend, barf my guts up and then ask "how do you think he'll react?" "Do I have a chance?" (i.e. tell me everything will be OK). But. A) that's super bad boundaries B) this third party, even though a close friend, is not they guy himself and can't predict the future C) I recognize I am looking for someone else to make me feel better D) how this plays out is really going to be between me and the policeman and I need to keep it that way.
    In other news, me and my policeman have tentatively made plans for next week. He is on nights this week and has his daughter this weekend, so we are looking at next week. Which means evening, which potentially means a proper date. I am very much just trying to enjoy this as it unfolds, stay out of my head etc.
    I clearly have some unresolved guilt and fear of judgement about my past. So glad I have therapy this afternoon. Although I can't really afford it time or money wise, I may need to see her weekly for a little while, as this uncertainty has really been a test for me. I think its mildly reminiscent of all the uncertainty with my ex while he was carrying on his affair and still living at home. When I stop to think about it. These next few weeks were very anxious as we prepared for separation and telling the kids and he was being a selfish dickhead and I was going along with his cover up story rather than rock the boat (which was already capsized, duh) and so the kids wouldn't hate him. Sounds eerily like the cover up we all engaged in forever around my mom's drinking. Ug.
    I'm rambling. Thank goodness for you all who sit here and listen to me talk about my ridiculous shit all day. XOXOXOXO

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  57. in other news... everyone is fine. but. My daughter was several hours away visiting her boyfriend for a few days. Had a kidney attack. She's got a stone and it is on the move, may be stuck, ug. Poor kid. She's been dealing with this since 16. So. Her dad, bless him, jumps in the car (and thank the lord, because I was in no shape to drive 6 hours and back this weekend) an drives off to go help her, bring her home etc. The BF family, obviously, were caring for her, got her to urgent care etc. but she needed a parent to come take over. So he gets there, gets her in with a doc at the local hospital, pays for everything and thhen they get on the road to come home. It's late. They hit a deer on the turnpike at 70 MPH. Holy shit. They could both be dead right now. As it is, no one was hurt even a little. My girl saw it coming before he did and gave him enough warning that he was able to turn the car rather than hit it head on. Car is totaled. But they are both ok. And she's home. And we have to get an ultrasound to see where that stone is. But wow. It's been a lot. Again, thank goodness I have therapy today. I'm going to ask what she thinks about meds just for the PMS time. I don't have the time or money to build a menstrual hut out back.

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  58. Going to need some support from you ladies this week. Separation is happening this week. We still have to tell kids. I wanted to wait until after my daughter's graduation but that only gives them 2 days of warning before my H moves out. I wish they had more time but my H wants to get it over with and doesn't want to wait. I witnessed both kids have incredible personal heartbreak this past week and I kept thinking about how much worse it would be after finding out about the separation. But at the same time, it is time for this to happen. I still love my H but his immaturity and self centeredness is keeping me from being in love with him. His passive aggression, stonewalling, deflection, gaslighting, obfuscating, and victim-playing has plagued our entire relationship and the affair and aftermath was the culmination of all of it. Crazy thing is that we are close in alot of other ways and he is my best friend. Maybe we are capable of that conscious-uncoupling thing. Maybe not. I just know this will be incredibly hard.

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    1. MBS, I'll be thinking of you all week. What you are doing is incredibly hard and incredibly brave. Hang on to that idea of working together with your H as you separate, if he is also willing and mature enough. It makes such a difference for you and your kids.
      I know it feels terrible now. Hang in there. it gets better. You may find, after some initial grief, that you feel better without his painful presence around. That was certainly true for me. Hugs and Love MBS

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    2. Oh MBS, I'm sorry. This is so hard when you badly wish it was different. But co-parenting with your best friend isn't such a bad thing for your children. They, like you, will grieve the loss of the marriage between their parents but knowing that both of you love them will buoy them as they work through the pain.
      In the meantime, you take care of you. And know that we're all thinking of you and sending you strength and love.

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    3. Mbs as ss1 said below you are incredibly brave, you might not know it now but in time you will realise that you have had to make one of the hardest decision of your life. It’s not hard walking away from someone you love. I know all too well as I have divorced just recently so I’m still feeling the tugging on my stomach, wanting that comfort blanket that I know I will never get in the relationship I was in with my h.. I hope you find some time this week to just sit and be, just breathe in and out and believe in yourself and your decision .. one step at a time mbs .. big hugs xxx

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  59. SS1, OMG, so happy your daughter and ex are OK and that he was able to go help her. I am happy to hear that your PMS mood swings are back to the playground for kids rather than on the trapeze high above the ground without a safety net. I remember, not so fondly, those days of wondering why I fluctuated between tears, anger and homicide/suicide feelings and thoughts. Ugh. Just ugh. On the other front, I really think you should just enjoy the times with your new male friend as much as possible without all that agita around your past. I believe you will know when the time is right to open that door about where your current wisdom and reflection comes from, i.e. your past experiences. We have all learned so much about ourselves because of our betrayal and the truth about others in the awful process of surviving every day. I look at every single person through a different lens now, even my closest family and friends and ask myself, "What secrets are you holding close? How do you really feel about your life and the things that you survived? How can I not make your day worse?" Honestly, if and when the time comes for you to bare your bruised and healing soul to the new guy, it will hopefully be a time when you can be kind and gentle with yourself. You don't need to put yourself out there unless and until you feel that he can hear your truth without adding to the pain you have already suffered. Much love to you as you pour out your motherly love to your daughter. She will need it to overcome that near death experience. Trauma is trauma and she just survived a traumatic event! Yikes!

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    1. Beach Girl, thank you so much for your message. You've reminded me of something important and that is to be kind and gentle with myself. wow. I was beating myself up pretty hard. and also "You don't need to put yourself out there unless and until you feel that he can hear your truth without adding to the pain you have already suffered." Thank you for this piece of wisdom. Me, always so focused on taking care of me, and thinking about this man's feelings and his degree of hurt and when will it be fairest to him to tell him, in order to minimize his pain. Not one thought to when will it be safe for me, or that he needs to earn my trust to get that story when I can be more confident that it won't be more pain for me. Wow. I had not even considered that. But no wonder I was feeling anxiety about disclosing. I'm so not ready and we are so not there yet.
      My therapist basically had the same advice and she said each situation is different and as in so many situations you can think you know how you'll react or what your deal breakers are and then it happens and you stay even though you were sure you'd go etc. So she said don't cry over milk that's not spilled yet.
      I am going to schedule a doc appointment to get all my various symptoms checked out and rule out anemia and other things which have been issues for me. And I am going to try to stay focused on enjoying the attentions of an adorably shy, handsome man in uniform. and start building my menstrual hut for the end of this month!
      So thanks Beach Girl. Your words and kindness really hit home.

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    2. Menstrual hut! Yes. Makes so much sense. ;)

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    3. I meant to write "always so focused on taking care of everyone but me.."
      And seriously, I'm going to get a bell tent and set it up out back and just turn on my out of office at the end of the month. :)

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  60. MBS I’m just a lurker to this board as I’m imbedded on the fence ... but wanted you to know I’ll be thinking about you this week.

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  61. Hey, I'm just checking in and trying not to talk about my myself for a change. How is everyone? MBS you still breathing? Sending so much love your way. Phoenix, Sam A, Selkie? Roll call - who am I missing? So many lovely people. Just want to wish you all a blessed, calm, drama free, peaceful weekend. I should be working. Instead I'm sat here eating a cheese plate and checking in with you all. All the hugs XOXOXO

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    1. Hi Still Standing 1,

      Thanks for asking! I think I will soon be starting to inch out of Limboland... but I still have no idea where to go next. Busy times these days, doing job interviews, getting legal advice, maybe even buying a new (secondhand) car... as well as working. Two major project deadlines for the end of this month. Then I will leave with my daughter for a summer break. We'll be going to see family and friends in my country.

      It's unlikely that my h will come to see his child during the 6-week school break. Last year I persuaded him to come (with the aid of a mediator) as I thought it was so unfair to our 2 and a half year old not to see her father all that time. This year, I am going to let him decide all by himself.

      I really hope this summer will be a time of rest and magical inspiration. I wish the same to you!

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  62. Lol We love to hear from you ss1, always a joy. Thank you for asking m, I’m good just painting my toenails ready for my vacation on Sunday, I’m having a week away in Gran Canaria with my boys .. some much needed family time away from alarm clocks going of in the mornings, bloody x boxes and work and school : ) .. ready for some sun, sea, the odd cocktail and some lovely local caught grilled fish yum ��.. love you ladies I’ll be checking in whilst I’m away

    . P.s I’m taking my gym gear and intend to work out whilst there I’ve recently lost 14 pounds which I don’t want to put back on I’ve just been eating healthily and exercising and I love the results. Hoping to lose another stone then I reckon I should be at my healthy weight..

    Speak to you all soon and take care y’all love you lots xxx

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    1. Have a great time in Gran Canaria, Sam A!

      Buen provecho with all those grilled fish!

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  63. SS1 random thoughts 1
    So much waiting with this situation. Really a test for me. And a great learning opportunity to tell that inner voice that panics to sit down and shut up. Last week we agreed that we would make plans for this week. As recently as Friday we were texting and he told me I'm cute when I blush and when I don't. That's really good stuff. And I know he had his daughter this weekend, so I schooled myself to give him all that space including Monday (because Sunday and Monday are his actual weekend). And now my ... what... tension? anxiety? wish to have something firm lined up? wish that he would initiate contact? ... so many things... is mounting. Thing is, I know what has worked with this guy so far and my sense is that the burned pretty bad / shy combo has needed me to make it safe for each step by saying "I'm open". I don't want to create the impression he's fragile or needy. I don't get that from him at all. Just a completely different male animal than any I've ever encountered before. I believe his interest is sincere (and despite my fears that all men only want one thing) and not just about sex, because he could have pushed that long before now. So. Now today. I'm making myself wait. He's working today so I am unlikely to hear from him until the evening. I'm making myself wait until dinner time and then I'll message him. Its such a crazy ridiculous head game I am playing with myself. Not too much too soon, or too little so he thinks I've lost interest. So vastly over thinking. And I am trying to be kind and patient with myself about it. Recognize that a lot is about my own fear of rejection, now and in the future. When I listen ti deep in my gut though, I believe everything will be OK, good even. Remind myself that this man, if he is who I think he is (and I've learned quite a bit recently - that the real person is more appealing than the image I had built up. Both vulnerable and strong. Wounded but not lead by the wounds, growing. Sounds so familiar and so appealing, right? I'm still building the real picture and have much to learn)...if he is who I think he is, will not reject the real me out of hand based on my past. (Clearly still looming in my head. But I've made a truce with it for now. We'll see how I do later in the month).But also that I knew going in that he's a long term play. No instant relationship here (unlike my boat guy). So I'm waiting today. Online dating advice sucks and is all so old fashioned and says that if he is into me he'll make the move and I should not be doing the leading. I call bullshit. Not all rules apply all the time. And if I hadn't sent up some pretty big "I'm open" flares, we wouldn't even be talking. So I know, that if I want to see this man soon, I'm going to have to ask for what I want. After our next date, I might even throw out there that I'd like to see him more than once a month, if we can make that work.;)

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  64. SS1 random thoughts 2
    Writing this out here is a form of self soothing. A way to offload some of the angst so I can get on with my work day. Life is in transition. Only half days of school for finals for my son today and tomorrow, then off for the summer. I can stop setting my alarm for a few months. woohoo! it is so lovely and such a gift that I get to live this way. In less that 26 days I am going to the beach for a week with my daughter. Hopefully my son will come too, but I doubt it. :( His friend cancelled and he's got no one else to take.
    I've been procrastinating going to the doctors. and about a lot of things around the house. and work stuff. I need to look at why that is and what it feels like it does for me. Avoiding things... I know in a lot of cases, I just move slowly and need time to think things through and work up to them. But in others, it a matter of focus and distraction.. And I think "shoulds" I should be doing all these things faster, so I get paralyzed.
    I need a bit more sleep. Im going to meditate for a few to get my brain a reset. I'm really fine. Just only slightly uncomfortable, which hopefully means some kind of growth is occurring. Being in this early, very uncertain, very undefined stage with a man is really a challenge when his pace is so slow. Thing is, boat guy went faster than I was comfortable with sometimes. It was a little odd, honestly. So chances are, even though my man in blue is going way slow, slower than I'd like, its probably exactly the right pace for a grown up thing to evolve, if I can stick it out. But it explains tome, at least in part, why he's stayed single. Women playing by the standard rules of dating would not make the much needed first move and wait for him to drive which also wasn't going to happen. I have to just keep being brave and putting myself out there. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
    What's the Brene Brown thing - I'd rather fail while daring greatly...
    Speaking of boat guy, yoou know how he wanted to stay friends etc. really just keeping me around to help him not be bored, lonely, whatever. Kinda selfish, in my daughter's words. I don't think he was insincere about being friends, just not really self aware about his motives or how that might feel to me. He'd been texting me regularly until last week. Then bam, nothing. I can only assume he's met someone or gotten back int online dating. it only stings a little in that it was just what I expected from him. I don't want him back or any of that, just sort of feeling ... don't know what the right word is, maybe used? even though I think I had pretty good boundaries about the whole thing. But also, like wow, pretty selfish, as predicted. Sometimes its just a question of covering old ground. we met this time last year, went to a concert (that interestingly just happened again last week). Went sailing for the first time. And I have to wonder how many times he has and will play out the same story line. I'm just letting those feelings rise and pass. It's all history and better out than in.
    Meanwhile, I have a much tastier fish on the hook. ;)
    Sam A I hope you are having a lovely vacation. Love you all. XOXO

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  65. Hi, friends, I’m catching up. MBS, I’m thinking of you. This is so difficult, so heart-breaking, I know. Give them as much love as you can. It’s going to be a healing journey, one step at a time. SS, I’m rooting for you. Sam, I hope you have the wonderful vacation you deserve. Selkie, you must be so proud of all that you are achieving. I hope your summer is magical, too, as magical as your name.
    I’ve been in such a healthy place lately, but tonight I feel sad and a little lonely. There is no one I am interested in. I’ve gotten messages from an ex-boyfriend, and the other day a stranger in Walmart gave me his number. But I won’t call him. I’m not attracted to anyone. And I don’t feel close - to anyone. Often I’m happy with my own company, but sometimes I still miss having a partner. A lover. A best friend. Sometimes I still ache because my best friend betrayed me.
    But I’ll be fine again tomorrow.

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    1. Hi Phoenix, I know what you mean. Sunday nights are usually worst for me. But you're right- we will be fine again tomorrow.
      Thanks for your summer wishes. Same to you too! And you have a very inspiring name.

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  66. Hi all,
    Checking in here. Telling the kids was really hard but they are resilient and my H and I are cooperating on giving them support. I have to say we are proud of all the emotional health we have helped them build so they are dealing well enough. It also helps that he is nearby and both of them are busy with summer fun. I also think it hasn't really sunk in for the kids. I had to tell my older child that I am not sure if we will get back together. She thought it was just the summer. The days leading up to his leaving were hard and painful for me. But now that he is gone, I feel at peace and fine with out him around. The space is really good and I feel like I can manage my time better, do things for me. So much of my energy has been taking up with dealing with him and the attention he demands. He is not a bad person, just very immature and needy. I am alot stronger and more independent than him in alot of ways--something I forgot over years of "babysitting." Granted, he has changed alot and is working on being a grown up. But i can't get over how he has done such a shitty job of addressing the affair. All he had to do was be a little more humble and "get it." But I think he still has alot of immaturity and self centeredness in his way. Anyway, we are still friendly to each other. If we end up divorcing, that might go away. I also want to give a shout out the the book "Should I Stay or Should I go." It really helps with understanding and developing a strategy for deciding what are your grounds for ending a relationship.

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    1. Good work, MBS. It all sounds very measured and caring. Absolutely making the best of a painful situation.
      Immaturity and selfishness are very hard to deal with. Thanks for the book recommendation too. I will check it out.

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  67. Hi Everyone.

    Things have been OK. My STBX hasn’t stayed here at all and hasn’t really been here at all. It’s been two weeks and he was only here for a couple of days-stayed at a neighbors house-rented a car....he mentioned he might come here tomorrow but he needed rest and to do laundry etc, so he might wait until the end of the Month...I just said OK. He said he sent $ and I said thanks. There has been little contact between us which is good.

    He has been paying most of the bills-I have taken on small ones that only I use like the club or stuff like my student loan. So I just text him that our cable and internet have been shut off and it’s OK-we don’t need it, and that I received a letter that the car insurance wasn’t paid.

    He goes off on how he is working and flying extra and no one is stepping up and what am I doing? I need to get a job that pays more than subbing and the kids need to pay their own phones, groceries, and our second needs to pay her car insurance (she is taking a summer class at a community college that she paid for herself, working all the time, trying to save for her tuition and a transmission for her car...). I am just so sick of it! I substitute teach which is slowing down now as all the school tracks are ending and everyone will be off for the summer break. I have been working any chance I get. I am looking for something to make money over the summer in between school years.

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  68. Part 2

    I would love to get a job and make some real money - but I was told by a lawyer that I have seen and friends that I should not get a job before we separate. I want my own money- I don’t want to rely on him, but I don’t want to fall into his trap that he is setting - telling me he needs help and I have to Make money now. These are all his choices. All this money crap is because of his choices. He has to rent a car where I used to pick him up. He had to stay at a hotel or buy furnishings to stay at our neighbors house where he used to stay here-I didn’t make him do all this. I simply won’t take his shit anymore. After his vacation when he made it clear we were no longer married - I told him fine - if it’s official in your head then you can no longer stay here, hang out here or anything. He made that line-not me. He took his GF on vacation - he told me it was none of my business, he told me I have no right to know what he does for his birthday.....no Fucking way am I ever going to drive all the way to the airport to pick his ass up and have you stay here in this house. No way! And he clearly realized that and hasn’t been here since. He said last night that he probably couldn’t come here because he can’t afford to rent a car. Does he expect me to tell him I would pick him up in our car that probably won’t make it? Feel bad about it?

    I just can’t unserstsnd why he is asking for help. We are not a couple, we are not a team, we are not a family. I am never going to help him out- I am fending for myself now.

    What is your advise...I shouldn’t get a full time job, right? Until this mediation is finished? My little one is off for the summer-I have my 16 year old and my 22 year old that still hasn’t come out of her cocoon that can watch her -

    He freakin makes $150,000 or more before taxes now-we have a lot of bills - but that is a shit load of money!

    I am just so sick of him whining that he is the only one working and sacrificing and paying the bills. He is the head of the household, the bread winner of the family! Isn’t that what a man is supposed to do?

    I told him that if we keep the plan to have the mediation done in August - he won’t have to deal with it much longer. I don’t know how he thinks things will be better because he will have way less money for himself and I will finally have some financial independence- Then I will get a job and build on that. We’ll See if we actually go through with all of this.

    I don’t know - am I being unreasonable? Should I have incentive to help out with bills? I just don’t care how much he is spending any more. He changed all his accounts that I don’t have access to and took over the bills. Why should I help anymore? He waffles back and forth-saying he wants us to all be comfortable and make sure that we have enough-he was going to give me his account number so that I could pay the bills on time and not wait for him....then gets pissed and says I need to pay for all this other crap that I can no way pay for with what I make and the kids need to pay, then Says he’ll pay.

    What a mess.

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    1. Hey Ann,
      I am going to quote you to give you your answer: "I just can’t unserstsnd why he is asking for help. We are not a couple, we are not a team, we are not a family. I am never going to help him out- I am fending for myself now.

      What is your advise...I shouldn’t get a full time job, right? Until this mediation is finished? My little one is off for the summer-I have my 16 year old and my 22 year old that still hasn’t come out of her cocoon that can watch her -

      He freakin makes $150,000 or more before taxes now-we have a lot of bills - but that is a shit load of money!

      I am just so sick of him whining that he is the only one working and sacrificing and paying the bills. He is the head of the household, the bread winner of the family! Isn’t that what a man is supposed to do?

      I told him that if we keep the plan to have the mediation done in August - he won’t have to deal with it much longer. I don’t know how he thinks things will be better because he will have way less money for himself and I will finally have some financial independence- Then I will get a job and build on that. We’ll See if we actually go through with all of this. " Stop questioning your perspective and your decisions. We do that too much for men who look to slip in between our "reasonableness." My H is nowhere as bad as yours but yesterday I got accused of being "inflexible" because he wanted to go surfing instead of attending our agreed upon meeting time to go over our budget and finances. Then I realized that he is so used to me bending over backwards to be helpful,fair, and reasonable that when I expect responsibility and self-accountability, it looks like "inflexibility." Remember that while you may be working within the bounds maturity and adulthood, he may not be. You are not using the same tools and the same language. Good luck.

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    2. Ann, I don't know if you are in the US or not but depending on the state you were married in and how long you have been married you may be granted spousal support for a period of time. Hang tough. He got you into this mess and he can figure out through the courts how to get out of it. Your demands mean he can't freely spend on his current piglet. Darn, sucks being an adult. Why August? Is that the soonest you can get in? On the spousal support, my brother in law lives in Arizona and he and his wife were married 25 or more years when they started their divorce. She was working and making good money too but she got spousal support granted for several years. I don't know why but it sounds to me like you still have questions that your attorney should answer. Much love, hang in there and don't look back. Ignore that whining cheater. What a jerk.

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    3. Ann,
      From this point onward, your relationship to this man is strictly co-parenting and business-like. You are entitled to what you are entitled to according to the law. This isn't about "helping him" or "being unreasonable." The courts decide what you entitled to. He will try everything he can to get you to give up some of your entitlements because that's what he's done to you for much of your marriage. Don't let him. Stand firm. Don't be swayed by his pitiful pleas. He's created this situation and he's likely realizing it's not the utopia he thought it would be. Too damn bad.
      Business. That's it. You can mourn the loss of the relationship privately. Publicly, you are a partner who's simply leaving it your lawyer/mediator to ensure you get what you're entitled to.

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  69. Part 3 - Sorry!

    Then he goes on to say that The mediator will recognize that I need to get a job-more like his lawyer will say that. I know I need to work and make some money now-I know that! I don’t need him lecturing me on how I need to get my life in order-that is not his concern anymore.

    So I told him that the mediator will se that I supported his career for over 20 years. He said to stop believing that-that I didn’t support him at all, that he got to where he is at all on his own- and the mediator will see that I didn’t support him but that I hindered him?

    I don’t know what he is trying to pull-we aren’t even going to court-we are mediating-the mediator can’t decide anything-can’t t make me get a job.

    Ahhh-I just hate him and his Dilusional thoughts!

    Did he ever take the kids to one Dr.’s appt?
    Did he ever take then to birthday parties?
    Did he ever help take care of our dog and take him to the vet?
    Did he ever offer to get groceries or make dinner?
    Did he ever go to school concerts or functions?
    Did he ever help with Christmas besides getting drunk?
    Did he ever go to any parent / teacher conferences?
    Did he ever help move our daughters into and out of college? Or even visit then in college?
    Did he go to our 2 oldest HS graduation?
    Did he go to 1 LAX GAME FOr our third daughter? He supposedly was some hot shit player in college?
    Did he go to one swim meet of the kids when He swam in college?

    Yes - he made the money- but that is about the extent of it. He never helped me out or supported me one bit.

    I will not bring up any bills or engage with him again! I don’t care if the water is shut off.

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  70. Ann, I’m hearing loud and clear that your worry right now is paying your bills and keeping a roof over you and your kids head. That’s our priority as mothers right! So what do we need to do to ensure that happens. Personally I am trying to make more money by doing extra jobs wheee I can it’s difficult as I have a 5 year old to work round so nights and weekend work is out of the question. I know your children are older than mine so I’m guessing childcare probably isn’t that much of an issue for you. can you look for extra work doing something you like just to ensure you have spare money ‘just in case’ he stops paying the bills. It’s reeally important for me to get to a safe place financially that way I don’t have to depend on anyone but myself and no one can let me down. My only anxiety is worrying over money so I’m facing my fears head on. I understand that your finances will be sorted out through lawyers in the near future And when it is you won’t have to ask him for money he will have to abide by the courts. Ann your stbx wasn’t reasonable in marriage so please don’t expect him to be out of marriage. Your still spending way too much time and energy on someone who clearly doesn’t deserve start by looking after no 1. Speak to a charity about your finances see where you can cut back etc etc, our lives will change as we enter into being single parents and we need to embrace that as much as possible .. I hope you can focus on you Ann .. lots of love xxx

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  71. Ann, Elle did a fantastic post on ‘confronting fear’ dated 22 January .. check it out I think it will help you my love xx

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  72. MBS and Ann, after going through a divorce when I was 25 years old and he got EVERYTHING. I was so stupid. It is hard in the short interval but think of the long run. Don't forget to ask for a yearly increase to adjust for price increases. Go after 1/2 of his pension or SS. Cheaters are selfish. He isn't thinking about his kids at all? What a jerk. This is what I would do. I would look at the bills that are in HIS name. Then I would let those go, you don't care. Look at all the bills in both your names. Wait until they are delinquent to pay a little. My EXH defaulted on our joint loans. I had to pay 50% of them and not a penny more. I came home one day and he sold the furniture we had a loan for. Prepare yourself it will get worse than it is now. I would let it go toward bankruptcy before I would do one damn thing but don't tell them that. You can see your earning potential. That is good but now is not the time to use it. Think about money only. It took me 5 years to get financially stable when I left with my 3 year old with the clothes on my back. Experts are giving you good advice just hold on and take it. I went on food stamps for about 6 months. I didn't even have my own car. I wish I would have been alot tougher. So take super bitch out of the closest when you need her and lay the smack down on these selfish dudes. Don't give an inch. It sounds harsh but your kids need to earn their own money for phones, car, insurance or they need to cut back somewhere. You know you can't keep THEIR current life style up too. Talk to them and they will understand, this is temporary emergency measures. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. A friend of mine, whose husband betrayed her, she hired a PI, got pictures. She got 1/2 of his salary, 1/2 of his pension and 1/2 of his social security. She was a substitute teacher too. It was hard, she didn't much food sometimes but now that the dust has settled, she is buying her own house. She moved near her kids and they still love her. You are too good, too strong, too loving, too good a mom to let him destroy your future with his bullying. When I finally got divorced I felt like that dog you see chained up in the backyard, finally set free.

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  73. Hi ladies I’m back from my vacation, had a fab time and then landed back in the uk : ( that’s the worse thing about going away, coming back! Been ill for 3 days run down and exhausted so I have slept a lot and refreshed, whilst watching a brilliant drama called ‘the split’ if anyone can get it where you are I’d recommend it. Recently Ibe been thinking about my separation and divorce I feel like I’m grieving my loss, each day I feel something leaving my mind and body freeing me slowly day by day. Might sound crazy or maybe the ladies who have divorced can understand. As much as I feel like it’s a maze I’m trolling through not knowing where I will end up I’m also finding my inner strength, feeling that I’ve made the right choice and that the marriage was far from healthy and I deserve better than that. Although I’m no where near thinking of anyone else right now the thought of meeting someone keeps crossing my mind, then I saw a British dating coach on the tv yesterday Mathew hassey he’s called gorgeous too but great at what he does, check him he gives lots of advice on dating and if your like mr and have been out of dating for a very long time it might just help. I’m just taking life day by day trying not to think too far ahead as it’s unrealistic got some exciting things ahead I.e starting uni in sept, fostering is going through as we speak and I’m excited about the changes that lie ahead of course I have my fears but my hopes and dreams minimise them.
    Hope you ladies are well, ss1 let me know how things are going with your new man, gabby not heard from you in a while hope your ok, Phoenix check in and let us know how your doing, selkie I know your heading home for the summer hope you find some clarity whilst away. Ann hope your continuing to look after yourself. And any other wonderful warriors who are out there, Miss you ladies .. lots of love xx

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  74. My dear sisters
    Thanks for asking Sam A.
    About a week before the spate of suicides with Kate Spade and others, I was finding myself in a pretty dark place - why the hell was I here when I've been doing so good? Whilst I have family and friends, I felt just so alone. Yes they have been great support - such as a shoulder to cry on, an ear to listen to etc- but no one is here financially - not that I expect that off others, stbx - that should be his responsibility and I don't want this bastard back, but just the position he's put me and the kids in financially is weighing heavy on my mind. He's a cruel person who puts on his public persona of Mr nice guy. Well facts. Nice guys don't continually treat their wife and children like shit. Nice guys are resilient and are there for the tough times, not just the good times. My stbx is NOT a nice guy. He's a selfish prick, who can't handle life and took the easy way out, so now I'm left to deal with all the shit. STBX husband whore and his whore (who is financial) are living the high life. Our marriage is not completely settled with the courts yet, but I can never make what he makes. Whilst I was caring for our children and the home life etc, his career was flourishing and now what WE planned for life, the rug has been pulled out from under my feet and I'm finding it hard to get back up.
    I'm sick of people saying "you've go this, you are strong".
    I'm tired. So tired and add in perimenopausal, and I'm just sick of it all!
    He parents when he wants to, changes things at the last minute, as he is clearly putting his whore before his children. I HATE him....and yet I still feel stuck with him because of our kids. They get annoyed at him and tell me about it which just adds to the stress of it all, but I can't fob them off. They need me, and I am 100% always there for them. They know I am always here for them, and would never walk out when thing get tough...and yet, there's more shit days to come.
    I needed to let that out.
    Sam A. glad you got to have a good holiday with your boys. Re the fostering. Are your boys ok with that? You could always start off by being weekend carers, to see how that goes first.
    Ann. Why is it that our husbands are so similar and we are finding our lives are running parallel to each other? I hope you are doing ok? These "husbands" of ours need to be accountable for all the mess they have created.
    I really think the family law courts need to change. Betrayal should be brought back in as a crime - and when financial abuse is happening, these bastards need to be charged - or something.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  75. Hi gabby, I’m only doing weekend and short term respite care.. long term wouldn’t work with me and my boys at this present time anyhow.

    I’m sad your having a tough time financially Gabby, I totally understand how you feel especially with the financial strain on us.. it makes me mad too honey, I don’t understand why we get bummed from all angles, it doesn’t seem fair at all.. my ex has just informed me that he is gonna stop paying me following something I challenged him on, so he acted really mature and cut his 14 year olds phone line of and told me he’s not giving me any money, see if I keep my trap shit he will give me money if I don’t he won’t. So me bring me cannot do that so here we go. Anyhow I had a feeling this was coming, he clearly has no control over our situation and is trying to control the very last bit of control he has .. which is financial.. so I’m going to take it through the child support agency I’ll get what I’m entitled to which is fine by me he will need to pay it regular otherwise they come looking for him.. the reasons these agencies have to operate are due to most like men behaving like twats and not wanting to pay for children they fathered it’s sick but true. I’m not going to let this take me under, yes it hurts real bad as I worry about life as a single parent with no one to rely on but myself but on the other hand I don’t have to worry about him lying and betraying me anymore, his negative and depressive state of minf is no longer my problem .. good luck to him and his whore, I’ve yet to shake her hand : ) .. gabby are you entitled to half of everything if you are married? Is there anything like child support agencies over where you are do you get what your entitled to? Here in uk depending on how much he owns will depend on how much I get.
    Honestly gabby it’s a rollercoaster ride this shit and just get through the days as best as you can, rest And recooperate when you need, call upon friends when you feel like it and do whatever makes you feel better. Control what you can and let go of what you can’t.. this divorce is and will be prob one of the hardest things I had to encounter, no doubt this is hard gabby and you are working through it the best way you know how. You have your children your prize possessions and nothing comes close to that, their relationship with you is real and pure unfortunately their father is losing out by not recognising this . It will get better gabby I promise.. lots of love xxx

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  76. Gabby, I'm so sorry to hear you having such a rough go. I just kept nodding my head reading you post. I can feel so much of it. I have the same fears around financial stuff and my ex is really so very good about it. I'm just screwed when the support stops. Do you have any legal recourse where you live to force him to do what is right while the divorce proceeds? I know where I live there are state rules that make him provide an appropriate minimum until the real arrangement is made through the divorce courts. Do you have a lawyer or advisor who can help you? I know in some places if you can't afford it, there are women's groups who will advocate for you for free.
    And OMG yes of the tired of everyone telling me I'm strong. Fuck that. Fuck it all. I am fucking tired. Tired of having to be on top of my shit and take care of everything and feeling like I have no one to rely on. Not true of course. If it really hit the fan, I would never be homeless. I know my sister would take me in. Something would work out. But yes, sick of it all.
    And yes,more shit days to come. But also Gabby, good days. I promise.
    Hugs!

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  77. SS1 update part 1
    So gang, update on my situation. First, things with my policeman are done. Yes that fast. And although I am really, genuinely sad about it, I am really proud of myself for how I handled it and for moving on from something that would be genuinely bad for me.
    So this man was definitely acting very interested and like a man who wanted to spend more time with me. It was all very positive and we had such a great time together on our lunch. But I also noticed, that I was just low key anxious about the situation. When we didn't talk for a few days my anxiety would rise until we talked or he took some action that was reassuring (and also kept me on the hook btw) and I felt better. I already knew that I have an anxious attachment style and this was how it worked. So I worked pretty hard to manage that and not let it make me do crazy things (you all saw my meltdown here to you about how and when do I tell him and all that? That is anxious attachment at work - and I think I did a good job of dealing with it in a safe place (here) vs. directing it at him). So, we were to make plans to get together again. and then they got postponed and then rescheduled and then he had a court case. But each time he was careful to reassure me and say how much he wanted to get together and also was still flirting. But, my anxiety warning bells were going off like crazy. Yes his schedule is crazy and rigid but a man who really wants to see me would make time to do so. And I was obsessing and unable to think or focus on other things. Anxious and uncomfortable and kinda mad at the situation and myself. So. I do what I usually do and searched for answers in a book. Read very quickly, a book on attachment theory call "Attached." and saw my own behaviors there on the page. Such a relief honestly. And the reason why, as I had guessed and not wanted to admit to myself was that my lovely policeman is an avoidant attacher. So his “come here, go away” thing is super triggering to my anxious attachment system. Terrible for me. And I took the actions recommended in the book. Be clear and have a grown up conversation about what I need. And his response will tell me what I need to know. So while we were chatting yesterday morning via text, I sent him a message that went along the lines of, hey, i'm asking for your patience while I'm open about something. I'm feeling unsettled about our lack of concrete plans. It would help me to have just a ball park idea of when we might get together. Its uncomfortable for me to ask for something that feels demanding. Thanks for hearing me. It took him 30 excruciating minutes to respond. But he basically said he valued our friendship so much and while he senses that I'm looking for a relationship, he's just not ready for that in his life right now.

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  78. SS1 update part 2
    So we will continue to be friends. I told him that I will not disappear from his life, because I recognize that friendship is not a consolation prize, but that I also might need time to adjust my head. I know that on some level, talking and flirting with me was meeting some of his needs, but I can’t continue to do that while being allowed to believe that there was some kind of relationship in the offing and without him really being willing to step into that.
    But I know I did the right thing because my anxiety is gone. I'm sad. I'm grieving the loss of the ideas and hopes I had for this person. But I'm also so proud of myself for taking action rather than continuing to play to push me pull you game with another avoidant attacher and a situation that would be so bad for me. I am so very sad for him too. Because he is so lonely and so terrified of getting close to anyone.
    It helps that a mutual friend, whom I trust very much and had shared with, was there for me yesterday, let me cry and confirmed my suspicion that this guy is both lonely and afraid and also suggested that he'd really regret passing me up. (It helps to have friends who build you up.) My friend also very kindly said, just because it isn’t happening now, doesn’t mean it’s a never. Maybe this guy will wake up to what he is missing. I’m not really spending any time with that idea. One because I know while it is possible to change attachment style, this man’s need for space will always be at war with my need for closeness.
    I’m trying hard to navigate detaching while figuring out how to remain a real friend to this person. Something I’ll learn as I go. But I managed with other people in my life so I’ll eventually get it here. It helps to see them as real and flawed and to recognize that ways he would be so bad for me (even if he is beautiful and tragic and ug).
    Some of my tears yesterday were very much about being tired of having no secure base ever or being single of being lonely. It helps that my sister gets it. We grew up in the same lonely house. I'm allowed to be sad. Thank goodness for my friends who gathered all around me yesterday. :)

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    1. SS1, you absolutely rock at taking care of yourself. Honesty and transparency can be very scary but it is what you need to do for yourself. Big hug, big deep breath.

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  79. SS1. So proud of you for taking action to heal yourself.
    I'm sure when you least expect it, someone amazing will come into your life. Sending positive vibes to you xx
    Sam A. thanks. you are amazing Such a generous, kind, giving person. (your ex is stupid!!!!)

    I often wonder why I have no desire to have another relationship. I know women here have expressed their interest in one day having another partner. Me? Nahh. Is there something wrong with me?, I often wonder. My closest girlfriends have said I feel this way because I invested everything and loved with everything a man who repeatedly let me and our children down and I'm not ready to meet anyone until I heal.
    I really am not interested. My kids are my main priority. I suppose I feel my husband, their dad, walked out on us, I could never do anything like that to hurt the people I created and love unconditionally. It pisses me off when people say "you're young, you're gorgeous - don't waste this time on not having a relationship". I just don't need a man to make me happy. I'm so tired with working, kids, pets, separation/divorce, - I don't have a place in my head, heart or life for anyone else. Quite frankly, I'm enjoying my life with my kids, family and friends and just am not interested in the bullshit that comes with relationships. I don't even need that "spark" that flirting and finding romance brings.
    Will I regret it? Will it be a case of me not wanting, but someone miraculous comes into my life when I least expect it? who knows, only time will tell, (and you can all remind me of this if ever I enter into a relationship - LOL), but for now. I choose me.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. Gabby I’ll be the first to remind you lol .. whatever will be will be and on your terms my love .. no rush for anything.. enjoy your new found freedom it’s a joy : ) xx

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    2. Gabby, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you for not wanting another relationship. Nothing. I think it is very wise and shows a clear understanding that you know yourself and know what will serve you right now. You are giving yourself time to heal and trust that things will happen as they happen. That's incredible btw. You know how to get your emotional needs met through the various friends, family , your children, those of us here, the people who are reliably here for you.
      I recognize that my high drive for companionship is just part of how I'm wired and most definitely a function of my anxious attachment style. I never had a secure base, even as a child with my parents, so I am always looking for that. No judgement on myself for that. I'm just trying to act from a place of awareness about it.
      What I hear from you is that what you need most right now is space and time to focus on you. I think that is so wise. The universe is forcing that on me right now, but it is all a learning experience for me too. I'm learning that I can be on my own and while uncomfortable, not ideal, that I have friends and family who care and that I will survive.
      If you get down the road and decide that you are ready for a relationship and the bullshit that comes with it, then great. If not, then you are still doing what is right for you. Hugs Gabby.

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  80. I’m proud of you ss1, you worked it out all on your own. ended what could have been a really difficult relationship. I’m not far behind you my love I have no idea how to date, what to say how to let someone know I’m interested so when I’m ready I’m going to read Mathew hussey’s book on ‘getting the guy’ lol sounds ridiculous but I’m so out of the loop I imagine things have changed loads since I was dating.. im looking at it as learning about me again and what i like about me and what I want from someone else.. god it’s going to be a challenge and a half..

    Ss1 have a good old cry, grieve that loss and get back to it. Your knighting shining armour is out there if you find him ask him if he has a brother will you!!! : ) seriously though enjoy looking for the ‘ right one’. I’m counting on you to show me the way ..

    Hope today feels better for you honey.. take care xx

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    1. Thanks Sam A. I am sad, but also mad. Not with judgement, just mad that at the situation. I can see that this man has been really hurt and that is what is driving his behavior. But I am also mad because it was not just a question of me misinterpreting his signals. He definitely was acting like a guy who wanted to pursue something at first. And then pulled away like a classic avoidant attacher. And a mutual friend confirmed that there has been a pattern of that kind of douchbaggery. He Knew I was interested and got a little ego boost or whatever he needed and then pushed me away. And now that I'm pushed away and told him I would need time and space to get my head sorted, he's been initiating messages, commenting on mhy social media stuff. and I'm like 'Guy, what are you doing?" classic come here, go away. And I know in part its because he knows i'm hurt and feels badly, but it kind of has me off balance today. And I'm sad and mad about it. The mad makes it easier to move on. The good news is that I know I will get over it. I have gotten over this kind of crush/longing/disappointment before and have gone on to be friends with the people. But I feel like this guy is trying to keep in in orbit, just in case or because he really does have mixed feelings and it is maddening. It's my ex all over again.
      So I am just trying ot stay busy. Had a lovely visit with my college bestie at her farm yesterday and got to play with dogs, chickens and her rescue horses. And she made us lunch with stuff from her garden. I'm trying to focus on those things and not worry about the cloud of emotionally unavailable boys that are orbiting me right now. I'll list them at some point because it is funny/tragic. But today I'm tired. Tired of being a grown up. Tired of being alone even when I am with people. Tired of having to be in charge and being fucking "strong" and having to grow up. Growth is always uncomfortable. And of course, part of me dispairs that there is someone with whom I can have both a healthy relationship and fireworks. I want both and I'm afraid that I am so trained to only feel fireworks with the emotionally unavailable ones that I won't know a good thing when it happens. Like there's a super nice guy that I know is interested and I know he'd be good for me but I've got zero physical attraction to him. And I know that is something that can happen over time, like as you get to know someone, but I'm just feeling plain old discouraged. I think especially because the policeman is doing the two step. I need to just keep my boundaries with him and not read into his actions.

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  81. Gabby,

    I am so sorry for what you are going through. Yes-our lives are so similar.

    Do you have a plan or date for separation? Mine is still in limbo but will happen soon. If not-I saw a lawyer recently that said that I can just file myself for separation - my terms and all that - and it will go to his lawyer. That is my plan. If we don’t go to mediation by September- I am just going to do that. Otherwise - in my state I was told you can file something for him to pay for the children. See what is available to you. I know exactly how you feel. I am stuck. I am not making money right now and I am dependent on him and he is holding all the cards. It sucks! It isn’t fair. I don’t know. I will be able to make money knce the new school year starts and after we are separated-but no way am I getting a full time job now so he gets to pay me less in the separation-no way. I am waiting it out. Is there stuff I’d his you can sell on eBay or Craig’s list? Can you maybe do dog watching or childcare? These are things I’m looking at just to get some cash until things settle down. Idk! I’m stuck as well!

    I am tired too! I’m tired of working out, going to therapy, trying to do right by my kids and be strong, going to meet up groups to get out and make some friends! Taking care of myself! Yes! Sometimes I just want to say, “Fuck This! I suck! I’m not strong- I can’t do this - my life sucks!!!!’ I hear you on that!!!

    I don’t know what to say really! Just maybe find that next step that can get you some money. I am getting my roof looked at for hail storm damage from a storm last fall here-the whole neighborhood is getting their roofs replaced. I am hoping to get more than the roof will cost and use the money for what I need.

    I am thinking of you Gabby!

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    1. Ann, I just wanted to say hi and hang in there. It is so hard, where you are, and you don't have to do anything right now other than put one foot in front of the other.
      For ways to save and make money that are stealth mode and good tide you overs. Check out the Penny Hoarder blog. They have some neat ideas for side hustles (like be a Lyft driver or dog walker) There's even an app for small jobs at local grocery stores that pay you to take pictures of end caps to make sure they have the products and pricing set right. Interesting stuff.
      Hugs!

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    2. Thanks SS1!

      I thought I write back to you but I must hate messed up the post. Thanks for all the great ideas. I will definitely look into all of them. I’ve signed up for care.com and hope to do some dog sitting/boarding. Would be fun for us all and some good cash. I did get a part time job as a personal shopper at a local grocery store. I’m not telling him-I just need steady cash every week so this will be perfect. I need to save for a car because the one we have now we have gas for 16 years-it won’t last forever. I’m tryibg to hang in there - I just want this mediation done.

      I hope your daughter is OK after that scary accident! What crazy things to go through all together!

      I enjoy reading all your posts!

      Hugs back!!!

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  82. Ladies, I give you greetings on this 27th of June, which would have been my 20th wedding anniversary. But that’s okay, tomorrow will be the 2-year anniversary of my divorce.
    I’ve been pretty chill lately, you know, even fielding communication from the OW with equilibrium. But two things happened today that set me back just a bit.
    First, my older daughter broached the idea again of my going back to my maiden name. My divorce was a complete shock to my children; we hid our difficulties for several months and then clobbered them by announcing our divorce. They had no clue, no warning. We never fought much, and since I’d been striving to save the marriage, we had even been outwardly more affectionate than usual- although they certainly had not missed how very sad I was all the time. They’ve each handled things their own way, and my oldest girl’s strategy has been to aggressively bury any hint of the past. She embraces new boyfriends/girlfriends, and hates to see her father and me together. It is simply too painful for her. I had hoped this was getting a little better, but today in the car she again expressed the wish that I would give up my married name. I could see the pain in her, and after I dropped her off, I found myself damning him to hell again for the first time in a while.
    Then, by complete coincidence, I found something on my computer. I was searching for something, and opened up a folder of downloads. Now, I erased most of that pre-divorce “evidence” I collected from my PC a while back - but I hadn’t realized they all still existed as downloads. I’ll have to remedy that. So I found myself scrolling, on this anniversary day, through all those damn text messages and notes and pictures I took off his phone back in 2015. I wasn’t much bothered and wasn’t going to dwell on it - but then I saw that strange record he had kept in his notes. It was a record of all the times we’d had sex over several months, with some short notes and details, much of it in abbreviations, symbols, numbers. The man was obsessed with sex. I think he kept it partly to enjoy and partly to prove to himself - and maybe at some point, me - that we weren’t having enough sex. At the end of the month he would tally totals. It was mixed with numbers and details from his work, which was weird, of course. And there was a very brief description of the OW when she was, apparently, looking particularly tasty. When I found it back in 2015, he swore up and down that all the rest of it was about me or business. He was always very persuasive, and I was in no mental shape to decode all his numbers and symbols. And I guess I wanted to believe that his obsession with our sex life was a positive thing, under the circumstances.
    But this morning, seeing it again after all this time, I decided to see if, with a cooler head, I could make sense of his system. And indeed, I could - within 10 minutes my less emotional brain made sense of his shorthand.

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  83. Dday was 9/1/15. For a few months these notes WERE about me or business. But beginning in early July of 2015, he started recording details of THEIR sexual trysts. Number of times, dates - and hotel room numbers. And at the end of July, August, and September, when he tallied our totals, he tallied theirs right underneath. That’s right, friends....essentially we had score cards.
    Here’s the thing - he always maintained, repeatedly and fervently, that their affair was emotional, and that they didn’t sleep together until we separated- he’d have denied THAT if he could, but his bouncing baby boy made that pretty impossible. Of course, I was always 95% sure he was lying. But now, here, almost three years later, was the proof in nauseating detail. They had plenty of sex, and during the month of September, while I was reeling with shock and misery, living in hell, and clinging to his false promises, they were meeting in hotel rooms and humping like bunnies.
    Y’all, it saddened me, and angered me, and disgusted me, but the truth is, it only bogged me down for a couple of hours. Then I went on with my day. Such is the healing power of time, I guess. And the ever-more-certain realization that he never did deserve me.
    So anyway - happy anniversary to me! I remember thinking, 4 or 5 years ago, that we would have a recommitment ceremony on our 20th, with our daughters standing by. This time last year, that memory would have devastated me. Now...it seems like a sad but distant dream. And I don’t care to dwell on it.
    This afternoon my ex sent me a text, two words: “I’m sorry.” Ironic, huh? Of course, he had no idea of the morning I’d had; he was simply acknowledging our defunct 20th. Fortunately for him, “I’m sorry” was pretty much all I wanted to hear from him at that point.
    I need to go back and read what I’ve missed. I saw enough to know that Sam had a good vacation, and Ann’s STBX is still trying to play mind games. But I need to finish all of it and bring myself up to date. Ann, he’s trying to manipulate you. But you’ve got his number. Stay calm and divorce on...there is peace and healing to be had in your future, once you complete the painful process of digging the knife out of your back.
    Catching up...I’ll be back. Hugs!

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  84. Ok, I feel a little more caught up now.
    I’m hearing that everybody’s tired of being strong. Yeah, I agree. It gets old sometimes. “Where do the strong go to be weak?” So asked a favorite author of mine. Apparently, for us, the answer is - here. With the people who understand.
    And the financial thing is definitely scary. I haven’t had child support for months, with himself unemployed and supposedly sick to boot. I haven’t had the heart to call him on it yet, which is stupid, because finances are tight and my precious savings account is shrinking. But it’s worse for some of y’all - Gabby, you are so right. We ahould not have to struggle with financial issues on top of the trauma of betrayal. Cheating is emotional abuse, and courts should look at it accordingly. Pisses me off to no end.
    And Gabby, you are SO doing the right thing. Listen to your Auntie Phoenix. :-) It is such a terrible mistake to rush into a relationship before you are ready. You are so wise to listen to your instincts. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. For 6 months after the divorce was final, I was repulsed by the very idea of dating. It was about 8 months before I actually went on a date - and it was still way too soon. I still hiss and make the sign of the cross when people mention remarriage. Time spent with our families, our friends - and yes, ourselves - is not wasted time. We are so brainwashed as a society. The world does not revolve around romantic love.
    And yes, Sam’s ex is extremely stupid. Sorry, Sam. But he’ll never get a woman who is half as good as you. I could almosr feel sorry for the guy - but nah. I don’t.
    SS, I’m sorry things didn’t turn out as you’d hoped, but I’m so proud of you for cutting to the chase. Who has time for the eternal “Come here - Go away” two-step? I’m sad for you, but I think you’ve avoided a lot of grief.
    Good night, sweet friends. Wishing you peace and serenity.

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    1. Hi Phoenix
      Good to hear from you. Blast these bastards.
      The lies are endless! And the truth usually comes out, even years later. You are right. You do feel angry, sad and disgusted, but then you realise, they are really shitty people and are not worth it. Just so many let downs, it's as if you become immune to any more, in a way. That's how I feel, as if "oh, another let down". I'm taking on the let down for my kids also. Wow. Added bonus.
      Honestly, with these exes, it's only about the sex, and if that's all they have to offer - what a boring life....and I get the impression your ex is NOT having a rousing time with his skank.
      For him to text you "I'm sorry", he was obviously thinking of you and not skank.
      I too want to change back to my maiden name. I have not desire to be associated with my piece of shit ex in any way, so once the divorce is final, I will change.
      Hugs Phoenix
      Gabby xxoo

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  85. Phoenix so good to hear from you, let me start by saying I’m so pleased your away from your ex h, I mean reading about his sick tally charts made me physically sick .. eeeerrrrrggghhhh.. thank god he isn’t your problem anymore and you don’t have to deal with his distorted thinking. I bet he’s sorry, sorry for losing someone as great as you, what a plonker this man is.

    I hope you will pursue him for money Phoenix you shouldn’t have to drain your savings, this man has had his assed wiped for too long he need to grow the hell up and act like a responsible father, they all do mine included. Gosh I’m hating on irresponsible men at the moment..

    I got rid of my rings today, he bought me them post d day, they were late wedding rings I never got on our wedding day. I exchanged them for a lovely watch, I had a conversation with the guy in the jewellers about why I was getting rid of them. He said he sees all sorts in the jewellers men coming in Christmas Eve for a gift for the wife, coming back days later for a gift for the mistress that made me sad, sad for the women who are living their marriage with no knowledge their husbands are cheating.. I spoke about this site and how it has been my saviour over the years.. I stand by what I say you guys are what bring me back day after day.

    I’ve decided to have some more counselling post my divorce I feel like it’s needed my anxiety is raising its ugly head and I’m experiencing some pain in my chest. I’ll be ok though it’s just a sign that I need some professional help a place where I can vent away from my usual support network of friends and family..

    Tomorrow is my day of and I hope to just try to relax and do little ..

    Gabby, Phoenix your right my ex is stupid, love you ladies xxx

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  86. I hear you Gabby! I am no where near ready to be with anyone now or in the near future-what a mess I am and so unfair for any guy to deal with all I have going on. Plus-I would have a hard time trusting any man. Right now I would just want a built, cute guy that can fix up my house and that I could use for sex sometimes-and maybe he could cook too. Haha - is that too much to ask?

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  87. Holy Shit Phoenix. Those details and his recording of them seems ... pathological? No he never did deserve you. Its weird to look back and see the behaviors that fit so neatly into classic cheater justification and sex addict behaviors. I wouldn't even begin to know how to explain it with attachment theory but I bet it fits in there too. Avoidance. All these guys or anxious or disorganized (which means they have little to no ability to attached or make healthy connections at all).
    I feel for you with your daughter's continued pain. Her asking you about changing your name is just so very sad. It means to me at least, that she knows more than she's saying and I think its a manifestation of her anger with her father. my armchair two cents. I think though, what I've said to my kids is that I'm in no rush to change it. I want to have the same last name as them for now. I'll change it when it makes sens for me. And what I don't say is that this may be if I remarry in some far flung (currently imaginary) future or if he were to remarry, especially to the OW, which I know is still a possibility as much as I would not want it to be so. It doesn't kill me to write that as much as it would have even a few months ago.
    But holy shit Phoenix. Those notes, the details, the fresh perspective of his lies and massive brokenness and the harm he did. Are you doing OK? I know you feel you've bounced back and that is so good that it doesn't derail your for days. But I can't help being worried for your tired heart my friend. I'm sending you a hug and you can save it up for some other time if you don't need it just this second.
    "Where do the strong go to be weak?" Such a good quote. I'm kinda to the point where people telling me that they admire how strong I am is almost a trigger for me. Makes me want to go lay down. Or quit or take a 2 month nap. Like it s reminder that I have been standing and putting one foot in front of the other for so long, carrying everything. And. I just. Want. to put it. the fuck. down.
    And while I know I have done my best to avoid a lot of grief and I'm proud of myself. I can still feel this man trying to do the dance with me with a message just yesterday. And I am trying hard to think "boundaries. how would I respond if I had no interest in this man and I truly viewed him as a friend only?" Luckily I have other friendships as a model. But I also need to consider for my own sake, how close is it safe for me to be to this person right now? And making sure I'm not doing any mind games on myslef like "we'll be friends and get to know me better and then maybe someday..." which is a dumb as thinking that is I sleep with him he'll fall for me and similar desperate things.
    I need to just keep space in my life for something good when it decides to show up.
    Meanwhile, I wants to be sure I wrote back to everyone and gave some love in return for all the love I get here from all of you. Let's all remember to be kind and patient with ourselves and give ourselves to not be strong if we don't feel like it today or be strong if that is where we are. Love you all!

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  88. Oh Phoenix! I hate that list! My anxious H did much the same sort of thing, but what hurt a bit more is that back in the hyper snooping phase I searched for my name in his computer. and all i found were my emails and phone numbers. I wasn't worthy of a mention? He is a computer/programmer genius so they could have been somewhere that I could not access--(not a very reassuring detail) but still, did I want to share 'memory' with a bunch of hooker? My h would have copious work notes and in the middle "hooker name, price, location" then back to work. This happened over and over. He even had a book in PDF form and on the last few pages 'hooker, age, attributes, price, location" These were not people he necessarily saw, just notes from craigs list, sometimes the entire ad would be copied. I hate that I even know that. I hate that you found your x's notes. Im glad they did not impact you more than they did. You're doing well, woman.

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  89. Phoneix,

    That sucks that you came across all that garbage on your computer after you have been in such a good place. I have a lot to delete after I get divorced!

    A few years ago I found a list my STBX made. It listed all the women he had sex with - from High School, College, me, then his first real airline job and all the escorts scattered in between. That’s when I realized the extent of his cheating. Of coarse when he knew that I saw it and had it-he just threw it out.....no comment or explanation. I still have a pic of it. I’m sure the list has tripled by now.....especially since he Started flying with a major airline a few years ago.

    It’s creepy, and unsettling - like your ex’s documentation. What is going on in their heads? I was just a name on the list. I didn’t even have a star by my name like one “special” woman.

    Good for you for not letting it get you down for too long! It is a shock to see it any time - I know that.

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    1. Ann - wanted you to know that I thought about you every single time I saw a Miami sign ... if memory serves me right doesn't your STBX have a condo there? I looked every pilot in the eye and thought "should I kick him in the balls for Ann?"

      Hope you are hanging in there my friend!

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    2. Kimberly,

      Hehe Thanks! Yes he does! If he was a tall guy with auburn hair walking with the FA’s and not the other pilots-yes-kick him in the balls!!!

      I hope you are hanging in their too!!!

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  90. Thanks for all the empathy, y’all!
    SS, I used that hug right away - after all, I know where I can get more. :-)
    Oh, Ann. Wow. Honey, I admire the hell out of you for hanging in as long as you did, but truly, this ending, while painful, is going to be all to your benefit. Think of it: now he’ll be cheating on HER. We are riding our tigers away while the skanks are stuck dancing with the monkeys. Bless their hearts.
    Steam, that’s cold. It’s like he saw them as products rather than human beings. Which is, no doubt, why you weren’t there. The male brain is just weird. Thank you for your words of encouragement.
    Gabby, I definitely identified with what you said about getting innured to all the lies. It really did get to a point where I just wasn’t even surprised anymore. At this point, I do kind of wish I had changed my name at the time of the divorce. I kept it because of the kids, but I’ve questioned my decision since. From what I understand, it is much more complicated and expensive to change it later. When I think of the hassle… ugh.
    Sam, I remember when I sold my rings. It turned out to be harder than I thought. I wrote about it, and even made a (sort of) piece of artwork with pictures, expressing my disillusionment. That’s a horrible story, what the jeweler told you. Sometimes it’s hard to have faith in human nature. I have to remind myself that there really are more decent people out there.
    Have y’all ever heard of “Meet-Up”? Online site where you can join social and interest groups? There’s one I’ve joined - it’s an hour away, so I don’t participate often, but on my Divorce anniversary I went dancing with them. I had a blast! Haven’t been dancing in a long time.

    I’m feeling pretty good, friends. “Acceptance” - it sounds like a weak word but it’s a powerful concept. Letting go of the past - once you’re ready - is a great feeling. I’m sure I’m not out of the woods yet - but I’m sitting in a lovely clearing, enjoying the sunshine.
    Peace be with you. (((Hugs)))

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    1. Phoneix,

      I joined a couple meet ups - the first one was just a couple months ago. The first one I went to was darts at a local bar. I was soooo hesitant to go but I joined and went all by myself! It was a lot of fun and the people were so nice and welcoming and I just had a beer and played darts! I’m so glad I made the leap to just try it! It is a great way to just get out and do something fun and different! I want to go dancing too!

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  91. I think gaslighting is just my H's (very close to being my Ex-H) default. It is constant and over the stupidest things. I.e--My H was over, getting ready to drive our kids up to an annual group camping trip. I am planning on going separately a day later. We will have separate tents. He had misgivings about us riding together so I volunteered to hitch a separate ride. However, there are wildfires in our area and the air here got really sooty this morning. My throat was burning and I tend to get asthmatic symptoms.
    Me: "Darn, I don't think I can stay here another day, I kind of wish I was going with you guys now."
    Him:"oh its anxiety."
    Me: "no its not, my throat is burning." [not to mention there is ash falling down and the sky is dark from smoke]
    Him: "Its really normal."
    Me: "What is? anxiety?"
    Him: "Yes."
    Me: "Stop gaslighting me and telling me that I don't feel uncomfortable in the smokey air."
    My 9 year old son: "Yeah, Dad."

    Often, he would then declare that he "didn't like my tone" or being accused of gaslighting (who wouldn't have a tone with all the blameshifting, gaslighting, obfuscating, and deflecting...and I calls it like a sees it).

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    1. Glad you called him out mbs, why is it that some h think they know us more than we know ourselves? and your right it is classic gaslighting. It’s great to see you making decisions for yourself Mbs and your son is clearly observing that : ) .. I hope you all had a good camping trip xxx

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  92. I’m right there with you Phoenix, in the middle of acceptance and it feels pretty damn good doesn’t it. I like the sound of ‘meet up’ I must try and find out whether there is such a thing over in the uk..

    After a terrible week last week I am enjoying some wonderful moments of peace and calm, yes I don’t think any of us are out of the woods Phoenix, that’s why it’s so important to savour every waking moment .. love you ladies xx

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  93. Hey friends, just saying hey. hopefully im rising out of my funk. Going to try and not chase boys for a while. not flinging myself back on to match. Just going to have to make friends with myself.
    Phoenix, I've done the MeetUp app too. Found a couple of interesting things, went to a photography group, which only lasted a couple of sessions, but I happened to reconnect with an old friend so it was worth it. Even though I am doing scads of volunteering, I may get back on to try and find another artsy or photography group. Or Dancing! Thought I could probably make that happen with my good friends from the volunteer squad.
    I need to, want to be doing more writing, but I've been going so hard I hardly have the energy to think when I finally sit down to get to it.
    Currently, I'm watching a thunder storm roll in. Saddling up my tiger for a trip down to the outer banks in NC starting this Saturday. I am so looking forward to it. Just me and my daughter. First vacation in forever when all I have to worry about doing is pleasing myself. Its quite a revelation. I'll have to tune in to what I want and then actually make decisions and then do thing! Wow. I'm not sure I remember how, lol. I wish I could send you all postcards or post photos. :) Or have you all come. I have two spare bedrooms at the beach house I've rented. But I got myself a fabulous two piece bathing suit where the bottom isn't that ridiculous scoop that barely covers your lady bits. Its cut just below my belly button which is the perfect spot for holding that baby pooch in. I look pretty damn good for a 48 year old. And it shows off my side boob tattoo. Couple of $10 sundresses off Amazon and I am ready to go cougar at all the lifeguards or surfers. ;)

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  94. Looool love you ss1, you go with your side boob bikini : ) we need more of these positive vibes. A vacation with your daughter to chill out sounds absolutely inviting.. it would be great if we could swap emails or telephone numbers so we could share pictures, how could we make that happen? We have to promise that we come back to this site as often as we do though.. this site is my daily therapy and will be for many years to come.. love you Elle for giving us this space..

    Keep us posted ss1 : ) you never know there might be some eye candy on display : ) xxx

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    1. Sam A
      Ditto to Elle.
      Elle. Love you. You show up every week, so long after your D Day to be here for us, when half the time we don't want to be here for ourselves!!
      Sometimes I'm sick of hearing what I am going through, but you, our dear Elle, never let us down and are ALWAYS here to gently guide us down which ever path we take - or are forced to take.
      Hugs
      Gabby xxxxoooo

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  95. What to do! My STBX hasn’t been home since the beginning of June. Hasn’t seen the kids. He tried a few times but didn’t have money for a hotel and car , couldn’t get on some flights. I could care less. I mean, I want my kids to see their dad and I know it’s hard for him to not see them, especially our little one. But it’s not my problem. It’s been great-apart from my money troubles. The kids are busy. One daughter is taking a summer coarse and working, my 16 yr. old is working, my oldest is still having g a hard time - trying to get her a job and get her confidence up. But over all - great! I take my youngest to the pool all the time and I work out with my other girls. We do our little fun things! We are a happy little family. He said he would like to stay here when he comes home at the end of this month - so he can spend as much time with Our little one as he can. That will suck - I don’t know what to do about that. It’s still his house too.

    I am taking a trip on Friday to see my family. The kids haven’t been there in 10 years! I have only been up for my Dad’s funeral 5 years ago. This was because of his emotional abuse and him keeping me isolated from my family. It’s funny that he’s a pilot and our kids haven’t been anywhere! They are all so excited to go on this trip-and let me tell you-it’s no where exotic - but I am so glad they are jacked to go! They get to go on a plane!!!!!

    Anyway-Now my STBX wants to do Mediation WITHOUT LAWYERS - as he is realizing the expense of doing it with lawyers - and we have so many bills and he is trying to get his stupid credit rating up.......I was the one who mentioned that when he comes home next time - we can schedule the mediation for August, because he was the one who wanted it done by July. If I say I want to do it with Lawyers, he will see it as a threat, that I am going after him. Anything that I initiate - he will see as a threat. He’s had a lawyer for a while now- I’m sure he’s gotten counsel from them about everything.

    I really just want it done and I want to have money so we can live!

    I am going to think on this. I am going to get a consult from a super lawyer when I get back and maybe go from there.

    I’m just going to continue no contact and get the work done on my end. I don’t know what else to do.

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  96. Ann, you’re doing fine.
    Yeah, he’s going to see your lawyer as a threat, because it threatens his ability to control everything. From everything I’ve heard you say, you definitely need a lawyer. And as you said, if he has consulted one, than it is certainly more than reasonable for you to do the same. I’m sure, after all these years, you know a lot more about dealing with this man than I ever could. But it seems to me that, since you are going to be dealing with him for several more years, it’s best to set the new standard now. Otherwise, everything in the future will be a battle for control.
    He is no longer your partner. He no longer gets to make decisions for you. He no longer decides what is best for you. You will be using your judgment, and making those decisions for yourself. You don’t have to be belligerent or angry or defensive about it, but you can calmly start drawing the boundary lines. “You don’t think we need lawyers for the mediation? Ok, I hear what you’re saying. Let me think it over and get legal counsel, as you have, so that I understand the exactly what I’m doing, and then I will let you know what I have decided to do.” He is no longer looking out for your best interests, although I’m sure he would like you to think he is. It is up to you to look out for yourself. This can be lonely and scary, but it can also be empowering.
    He’s probably going to have a come-apart when it really dawns on him that he is no longer in the driver’s seat of your life. And he’ll probably use money and threats and manipulation to bully you into compliance. But if you can hold your ground where it matters, hopefully it will set the tone for the future.
    When he comes, would it be doable for you to go somewhere for a few days? Just leave the house and kids to him? That way, you are giving him access to his house and his kids, but you don’t have to be around him. Plus, it would give him a taste of what it’s like to have the kids on his own. As long as there’s no chance he could shut you out of the house long-term…
    SS, enjoy your vacation! Sam, I’m sorry you had difficulties, and I hope this week has continued to be a good one.
    I has a setback over the weekend; found something my daughter had written that just about ripped my heart in two. But I after a few days of processing, writing, thinking, and praying, I got myself on thank again. Sometimes, I’ve decided, you just have to sit with the pain. Relax into it, breathe through it, ride it out. No point in fighting or flailing. Let it hurt, and then decide how to go forward.
    Love you, my sweet ladies! I have a bday coming up; gonna try to go dancing again. Hugs!!

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  97. Ann, use a lawyer. You will not having an advocate looking out for you & the kids.

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  98. Hey ladies, everyone’s so quiet at the moment, I guess it’s a busy time for many with the summer holidays starting, kids finishing school etc.. hope everyone is taking care of themselves..

    I just wanted to let you know I’m doing good, some days I’m doing fab others I struggle.. it’s the rise and fall following divorce I guess..I’m loving being away from the drama and his behaviour . I feel free : ) .. started some counselling to focus on boundaries etc we still have to be clear on childcare arrangements which isn’t agreed at present he has free reign to see his kids when he likes but chooses to see them once a week at present. The finances are going through child support and again he tried to do me over with that but I try not to bite it’s not worth the hassle and once he realises he can’t rile me he stops being an ass.. I feel like I have more boundaries set now than ever before and I’m so proud of myself. All then years I feared leaving him because of this and that and you know what I feel like I’m conquering them fears one by one.. not at all sad about what ifs, it’s pointless it gets me no where. So i do what makes me feel good, I run, meditate, meet my lovely strong female buddies, eat and sleep well and do what I can for my children and anyone else I come into contact with.. a smile goes along way i think : )

    A close friend of mine is going travelling in September and has organised a trip for her nearest and dearest to claim Mount Snowdon. It’s in Wales. She’s asked me to come and I jumped at the chance it’s kust what I need time away from everything and everyone to just be me, I’m so excited 3 days away from my kids will be massive and challenging but it’s needed right now.. so that’s my next challenge I’ll let you how I get on fingers crossed all goes to plan. My ex is having the kids hopefully which makes it easier for me to not have to worry too much about them. I feel like this is who I am who I was always meant to be I just got stuck in a time lapse I couldn’t get out of but I have now And anyone who is contemplating separatauon or divorce and stop yourself because of your fears I totally understand but believe me when I say that once that step is taken you just keep taking the next step until that fear disappears. I know there are many bumps in the road ahead but I’m ready to ride them.. no regrets ladies none at all .. I’m happy my kids are happy and that’s all that matters right now : )

    Thank you for listening xxx love to you all xx

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    1. Sam A, Snowdon! OMG so happy for you and so envious. I stayed in the Brecon Beacons in 2015 on a family holiday in England/Wales. Wales is absolutely spectacular. My parents used to rent little farm cottages and stay in wales for their holiday before they moved to the US. Often included a trip up Snowdon (but perhaps on the rail, since my nana was not much of a walker. I so wish you could post photos. Enjoy every moment!
      Glad you are hanging in and recognizing that both ups and downs are temporary.
      Hugs!

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  99. I need to rant. My relationship with my daughter has always been challenging... in no small part due to my husband leaving the real, hard parenting up to me thereby fostering some rebellion and resentment from my now 13 y.o. Not to mention that he drew her into the shady world of his affair when she was just 9 years old. She was harboring an unspoken secret for many months. One that is at odds with how much she adores her dad. I think she has been wishing away his bad behavior rather than be angry with him. She is also an intense and emotional personality who has had anxiety and depression from a young age. She has been in therapy and the need for more therapy has come up at her recent check up. The part that I am hurting from is that she is very defensive about her dad (even though I work hard to refrain from saying anything that would jeopardize his standing in my kids eyes--I know how important it is for the kids to have a strong relationship with their father). But she blocks things out that he does and pre-emptively makes me responsible when things don't work out. I.e--I put alot of energy and effort into planning her entire summer of activities and fun and responsibilities. Her dad has done nothing. But I get all the blame for her being "bored" or having responsibilities. I am trying to accept my role as the bad guy. I am not trying to be my kids buddies at the expense of having them have structure, responsibilities, and boundaries. But at the same time, I am so frustrated that their dad gets to be the good guy in this. I am the one patiently fielding their outbursts and anger (their dad can't tolerate conflict or anyone being angry at him so they turn it on me). To me, I am creating a safe space for them to be angry, disappointed and frustrated, but to them I am mean mom. I know my approach is the healthy one, but hate that his shitty behavior can't be recognized.

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    1. MBS I so relate to everything you are saying. Especially right after dday, when my daughter knew everything but my ex was still living at home (asshole). My daughter unloaded on me regularly. But it was because I was the "safe" parent. She knew she could vent all her spleen and I wasn't going to abandon her. She even said that her dad had "chosen another family" and wanted to walk away from ours. Yes. True even if that family was with a 29 yr old and fantasy life in the Big Apple. Ouch. My daughter, certainly, harbors very little illusion about her dad at this point, though she is less angry (due in part to his efforts to make amends - he's not a complete asshole).
      But it is so frustrating to be left responsible for "everything" kid related, doctor visits, homework, etc etc. My ex is frankly, more involved now, post divorce, than before when he was trying to run away from the life he had made.
      Just remember that as tough as this is (and it is and it sucks to have to be the "heavy") your kids will in the long run, the very long run, look back and appreciate what you've done for them by providing structure and accountability. They will have grown up life skills and possibly, learn to deal with hardship rather than run away from it.
      And that dynamic you point out where you have ot do all the serious parenting and dad gets to be "Mr. Fun Guy" exists in intact couples as well. its a serious gender issue honestly.
      Maybe, try not to label yourself as the "bad guy" ? What you are doing is important and positive, even if it is challenging. You are the Personal Growth Parent, The Champion of Stronger Kids, The Adult They Need & Not The Playmate They Want. Hugs!

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    2. MBS - I'm sorry you are having such a rough time of it right now with your daughter! I dread those days ... :) ... I know that typical teenager hormones are hard enough, but you've got a triple whammy with her depression and the affair issues.

      I wanted to say, however, that her behavior is actually a good sign for you. Children tend to strike out against the one they feel most secure with. I know ... it SUCKS! ... but you're her safety net. The one who is her rock. She knows that no matter what she says, does, expresses to you you will ALWAYS be there for her.

      She may also be testing you a little - to see what your thresh hold is ... or to see if you'll crack and give up on her like her dad did. I know from personal experience that this can happen. :) I was that teenage girl once.

      Big hugs to you my friend ... you are a STRONG woman who is setting a truly amazing example for what is acceptable and what's not. You've got this!

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  100. MBS, you are a very strong woman and a very loving mom. I have so much respect for you.
    I’ve had a lot of ups and downs with my daughters. It is normal for them to push us away during these teenage years. But when those teenage years coincide with divorce, it increases our own fears and insecurities, and makes it so much harder to shake it off when our girls turn on us. Your brain perceives the behavior as normal - but your heart breaks anyway.
    Your daughter’s behavior with you is healthy for her age. Her relationship to her father seems much less healthy.
    You are her safe person. It is safe to lash out at you. But him - she senses he is unstable, and so she doesn’t show him her anger, for fear of losing him. It is rotten and unfair. But you are the real parent, and deep down she knows that.

    I don’t know if my advice is good or not - I’ve had mixed results. But I feel that, while we should make a habit of putting our kids first, and not burden them, we also should teach them to empathize with the wants and needs of others. Including us. I think my girls should be at least somewhat thoughtful of my feelings. I don’t want them to be self-absorbed in relationships with others. And as their model, I don’t want to set an example of completely subjugating my feelings for someone else - even for them.

    There are appropriate and inappropriate times to express this, of course. Not in the middle of an argument. Not when she’s clearly hurting. But I think it’s okay, in times of calm, to stand up for myself. To say: “Hey, I work hard for you. I spend half my life driving you places. I plan good things for you. I love you more than anything in the world. And I know you love me. But when you speak to me rudely, or yell, or don’t do the chores I’ve asked you to do, I feel unappreciated. Everybody loses their temper sometimes. But it’s not okay behavior to treat me rudely. You deserve my care and support - I deserve your respect and courtesy.”
    Yeah - it doesn’t always come out like that. :-)
    It’s a fine line. I don’t want to overreact to typical teenage sullenness. And I don’t want to guilt-trip her. Much. But sometimes a little guilt is a good thIng. Why shouldn’t she be taught to appreciate people who take care of her? Why shouldn’t she learn to be courteous and respectful to her loved ones? And why shouldn’t she learn, from example, how to set expectations for respect in a relationship?

    I have to be careful. It’s easy to go too far.
    I have to let some things slide, and I say “I love you” a lot. But from all I’ve read and seen, children WANT us to set some limits. They need that safe parent to say: “This far, and no farther. Your feelings are understandable - but there are boundaries for your behavior, your words, your actions.”
    Obviously, I would discuss this with her therapist- and kudos to you for getting her therapy, too. It is awful, what her dad did. One of my parents did that to me, but only for a few months - and I was 21. And even then, it scarred me, took me years to get over. Your baby was nine. It is painful to think about. Selfish, immature parents - ugh.
    It is so hard not to be bitter, when she embraces and defends such a parent. But of course, she will. She loves him. He’s her dad.
    Keep loving her, and setting limits, and reminding her occasionally that you do deserve some appreciation. That’s my best advice. And try to have some good mom-daughter times together now and then, being together, doing something she enjoys and you can share. It may be brief, but those bonding moments can be strong glue to keep y’all together during the hard times.
    I’m sorry you are hurting. She will grow up and see things more clearly.
    Hugs, you Super-Mama.

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    1. I needed to read this today, Phoenix. My teens are triggering all sorts of that old stuff and reminding me (yet again) that clear boundaries make all things better. That's always where I struggle -- drawing those frigging boundaries that keep me from being resentful.

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  101. Sam, that trip sounds wonderful! I would love to go to Wales. Heck, I would love to leave my home state. What an adventure! I am so very happy for you. And I’m thrilled that you are feeling so strong and so healthy.
    Welcome back to your life! Hugs!

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  102. Hey everyone, Back from vacation at the beach. It was both lovely and exhausting. My daughter has been ill off and on and completely off balance as she adjusts to new birth control. It's required a lot of emotional bandwidth that I dont have a lot of right now.
    Plus I am getting a degree of unwanted male attention, from someone I was trying to be nice and/or helpful to, and I'm afraid its taken on a life of its own. I'm going to have to write an awkward "we really need to keep it friends or nor at all" kind of message. But that has drained a lot of my energy too.
    Decided also that I need to cut back on my volunteering for a bit. Really feeling burnt out and I'm not spending enough time on my business and actual paid work, which is Ok for now, but not moving me toward my goal of being self sufficient long term.
    Some days, if I didn't have kids, I would sell everything, by a little camper and drive off into the sunset. Work sometimes, take photos, play, hike, sleep. This becomes a more viable option once both kids are off to college. My ex can be the home base for a change.
    Interestingly, at the beach, the place I've been going for decades with my parents and then my own family, there was not much to reclaim. As with Christmas, I'm finding that a lot of the things that I though of as "ours" or "family" were really largely driven by me. And other things, like the lake in Maine, I have completely claimed in my own way last summer, by finding a nice house and having my own time there with the kids. I think realizing that I had been left to my own devices for so long and for so many of these trips, even when we were together, has made letting go of the past easier. Its getting easier to feel more connected with my past and look at it as a single timeline instead of a broken, disjointed one, because more and more I see myself as a whole, stand alone person. That I've had me the whole time, even if I let my identity get swallowed up in a largely imaginary "us" for a long time.
    Hope everyone is doing well and enjoying summer. And btw if I do sell everything and caravan around the US a few years hence, any of you are welcome to join me for any of the legs of the journey. The BWC Bus!

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  103. Sounds like a great plan ss1, xx

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  104. Thank you ladies for the incredible words of encouragement and the wise words (my therapist said the same thing so you ladies have honorary PsyD degrees!). I rarely have moms of older kids to bounce this stuff off of. I am usually the advice giver to people with younger kids so it feels good to be on the receiving end. I am going to copy what Phoenix said down and memorize it:"Hey, I work hard for you. I spend half my life driving you places. I plan good things for you. I love you more than anything in the world. And I know you love me. But when you speak to me rudely, or yell, or don’t do the chores I’ve asked you to do, I feel unappreciated. Everybody loses their temper sometimes. But it’s not okay behavior to treat me rudely. You deserve my care and support - I deserve your respect and courtesy.” I have to say that her dad is stepping up somewhat and understands that he has to be more responsible as a parent. But it isnt enough yet. He struggles with execution, planning, and organization (not to mention maturity and self centeredness), so even if he tried harder, I know I will always be the more reliable parent.

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  105. MBS: I’m honored. I deliver a version of that speech, sometimes calmly, sometimes hysterically, at least once a week. At best, you will probably receive an eye roll in response. But some of it does sink in. They just don’t want to lose face by admitting that some of it has sunk in. Progress is made slowly in these matters.
    I had a nice moment back at Christmas when my mom undermined my authority in front of my daughters (something she rarely does, she’s a great mom and grandma). They were too polite to say so in front of her, but they later privately surprised me by taking my side: “Yeah, mom, you were right. Nana shouldn’t have said that in front of us.” We live for these rare and special moments. :-)
    If we were actually hanging out together, this is the moment when I would stand and dramatically sing the immortal words of Stephen Sondheim:
    “Careful the things you say, children will listen,
    Careful the things you do, children will see and learn,
    Children may not obey, but children will listen,
    Children will look to you for which way to turn
    To learn what to be,
    Careful before you say: ‘Listen to me’ -
    Children will listen”.
    This would inspire you all to throw finger foods and sofa pillows at me for being an annoying Broadway geek, and you would tell me to sit down, shut up, and drink my wine.
    It IS nice to compare parenting notes. Not only is it a completely different ballgame when you parent a teen, but it is yet a whole different level when you are parenting a teen in the process and aftermath of a divorce. It has been really difficult for us. Plus, I always pictured this as a team project, and here I am dealing with most of it alone. I’m glad your daughter’s dad is stepping up; it is good for her and helpful to you. My ex makes efforts too. But, as you said, the burden is and always will be on us. Still, I wouldn’t have it any other way. You probably feel the same.
    I think I’ve mentioned it before, but I am really enjoying this book: “Untangled: Guiding Teenage Girls Through the Seven Transitions into Adulthood” by Lisa Damour. She has some good things to say about how, deep down, kids need and appreciate boundaries.
    I’ll be humming that song all day now…

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  106. SS, I was struck by what you said, about how you felt when you attempted to reclaim your past. I have noticed similar feelings. We will be doing something, and I will think about what it would be like if their dad was there. And then I will realize that, even if we were still married, he probably wouldn’t be there. He showed up for a lot of things, but he also missed a lot of things, particularly in daily life. He could be very checked out of family life. I was always the “default parent”. I ran my family and made my own memories, much of the time. I hope that, like you, I will learn to see it more as an uninterrupted thread. Although the pain has faded significantly, I am still often beset by the idea that much of my past is tainted. I look forward to working my way past that. Thank you for the perspective.

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  107. Hearing you talk about us being the "safe parent" makes sense Phoenix. Actually Phoenix, you make a lot of sense in what you say. xx
    My kids are pretty good, except one is giving me a bit of grief at the moment - typical teenage back chat. I know they won't talk like they do to me around their dad. They don't really like him, and they get disappointed with him, as he does so many things to disappoint them that it's as if now they are just "oh yeah, that's dad". They can see by his actions that he puts whore ahead of them. That really saddens me-then angers me.....and it pisses me off they still want to see him, after knowing what he does! But I still insist they have a relationship with him - albeit one that isn't that often.
    I've been in a pretty dark place the last couple of weeks. I know I'm in this dark place and I know it wont last, but the pain keeps coming back every so often.
    I have some good days, but keep slipping back. It's the pits.
    One of my kids has done something really amazing, (good) and they actually said to me in response to it "you raised me mom" - that has helped me feel pretty good. After years of being criticised by me stbx, to have my child acknowledge their success - to me being a contributing factor - made me feel appreciated, valued and I really wanted to shove that in my stbx face!
    Me too Phoenix. A lot of the time stbx just would not be interested in doing family things with his own children, so I did quite a lot on our own and now I'm continuing to do what I can on our own. With my marriage, it saddens me that parenting should be a dual commitment, but I really think my stbx is just not tough enough or resilient enough to do the hard work that goes with being a parent, and running away with his affair partners has given him that escape of responsibility. You wouldn't think this business man could be so cruel and useless - but he's said some stupid horrible cruel things over the years. He actually has said a few times in the past "if we didn't have kids, we could be living in an expensive apartment, travelling the world"!!!!
    WTF???? At the times he said that I was dumbfounded. He was the one who always wanted a family saying "that's the main reason to get married" - so this is why I believe he has mental health issues. You'd meet him and think "he's fine, what's Gabby talking about?" - but it's all comments like these and many more, that people don't know about, that have made me realise how sick minded he is. How cruel to even think that about your own kids...putting a lifestyle that you would want over your kids??? Looking back, it was about this time that he started to drift away from me, leaving me to deal with all the hard stuff associated with babies. Since our separation, quite a few of my friends and HIS previous work associates wives have told me how they don't like him for various reasons - some said he was sleazy towards them, and others said how annoyed they were at him that he just did his own thing and left me at home with the little babies - how selfish he was/is. This was a wake up call (too late) as he's always ranted how everyone loves him and he's this and that- yet reality is, not everyone likes him. He is a very narcissistic person.
    Honestly, I am glad he's gone....and I am so glad I have my babies.
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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  108. Yes, Gabby, yes. We have a lot to be thankful for.
    XXX
    But like you, I’m finding myself in dark places again.
    Both my ex’s parents FINALLY know now that they have a grandson. The kid is a year and a half old.
    On Sunday, they will meet him. My kids will be there. I’m going to have to do something to distract myself at that time. I have no idea what.
    I’ve put on a good face for my kids and for my sweet mother-in-law, but inside I’m struggling with pain and anger again. Most of it is due to one of my childen, and some writings of hers that I found. She said some things that cut me to the heart. I’ve been wrestling with this for a a couple of weeks. She is my baby, I love her, and I know that there are many things she doesn’t understand. Logically I know, just as I said before, that I am the stable parent. The safe parent. But it hurts so much. And I wonder if I will ever be free if the past. They have mutiliated my life and family, and I keep thinking I’m finally moving on, making a happy, peaceful foundation. But then, unexpectedly, I get slashed again. By my baby. Because that’s how they’ve fixed it - so that the triggers now come from my own children.

    Some days I’m okay. Some days I’m just not. Please pray for me.

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  109. Yes, Gabby, I’m glad he’s gone. I just wish he wouldn’t keep coming back.
    I spent this week at the beach. Had some good times, but I also struggled with some depressed periods. Talked to him on the phone yesterday. He had more reasons why he couldn’t pay child support for another 2-3 weeks, but he swore he’d get caught up. He wanted to tell me about another possible treatment for his illness- which he has still never given me any verification of. He wanted to talk about missing the kids.
    He didn’t even bother to acknowledge that his parents are about to meet their grandson, or that the OW will be coming, for the first time, to the house where we lived together for 16 years.
    Today is Satiurday. Tomorrow, Sunday, my in-laws will meet the grandson they always wanted. And since they live in our old house, that means the skank is coming there. It’s not like I didn’t expect that, eventually . I’m prepared. But I still need to find something to distract me tomorrow afternoon.
    My brother is in town, so hopefully that will help.
    Hope y’all are doing ok. Sending hugs.

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  110. Part 1 of 2
    Even though I have been reading your posts here on Separating/Divorcing for a little over a year now, I had always hoped and prayed I would never add to it from the “divorcing” perspective. Well, here I am. I don’t know where to begin. I am still experiencing a full spectrum of emotions although the limbo I’ve been experiencing is now coming to an end.

    My h of 20 years told me last week, after being separated for six months, “I don’t think this is going to work out.”
    “What do you want to do?” I ask, full knowing the response.
    ---silence---
    “Since ‘this’ is not ‘going to work out,’ what do you want?” (I thought his phrasing was shitty and cowardly. He wouldn’t say “divorce.” We’re husband and wife, not boyfriend and girlfriend.)
    ---silence---
    See, ladies, I am the decision-maker in our relationship. I am the responsible one. I am the one who takes care of the difficult shit. I am also labeled as “controlling,” “negative,” and “no fun,” just to list a few ways my husband sees me due to his lack of care, responsibility, and maturity. He waited for me to bring up the word “divorce.” I wouldn’t. If he wanted it, he would have to ask for it. He would receive no help from me.
    “I think we’re mature enough and care enough to have a dissolution,” he finally states, tears in his eyes. I don’t agree, but what can I do? He knew I didn’t want that. He knew I didn’t want the separation. He knew I wanted to work and fight and save and… all the things he was too weak to do. Maybe he simply didn’t want to do the work instead of not being able to do the work. I don’t know. It doesn’t matter. It’s over. My marriage is over. My h couldn’t/wouldn’t do the hard work. He couldn’t/wouldn’t rebuild trust. He couldn’t/wouldn’t open his eyes and his heart to my pain. He blamed me for the affair. He accused me of being selfish and disrespectful. He never owned his choices. He never accepted responsibility. He expected me to change.

    So, I knew long before the three hours of our most recent conversation that he didn’t want to be married to me anymore. I’ve known for quite some time, but since he led me on and continued to give me (false) hope, a diminutive fire burned deep, deep inside me. Silly woman, I think to myself. Wait. Stop! No, I’m not “silly.” I’m not “silly” for loving him and fighting for him and my family. I’m not “silly” for trying every last damn thing I could and not giving up on what I wanted. I’m not “silly” for never being able to trust him, although I loved him and prayed for the strength to trust him again.

    I am in training right now, out of state. My h assumed I wanted him to drive me to the airport. I almost choked on the water I was drinking as he asked about my plans. Our kids will drive me to the airport; you will not. What the hell would make him think I would WANT HIM to drive me anywhere, especially since he recently announced “this” is not “going to work out”? Save the nice guy routine for someone who’ll actually buy it. Don’t try to be accommodating, sincere, or whatever bullshit you think you can pull. I am so done. Fed up.

    Our daughter leaves for college in less than a month, and my h and I planned to drive there with her and help her move in. The student/parent orientation is a two-day event - an overnight. I sent a text to my soon-to-be-ex husband (that is so odd, that phrase which will now be my new normal) telling him to get his own hotel room. “I don’t know what that would accomplish,” he texted back. What is wrong with him? I told him there was no way I was going to share a bed or a room with him. Get off your ass, bud; make your own arrangements. WTF was he thinking? I don’t think he realizes what the word “divorce” means. He’s clearly confused. He clearly wants to appear as the caring h. He’s not. He hasn’t been in a looooong time.

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  111. Part 2 of 2
    We went round and round again for several minutes… rehashing the same argument about how he can’t be married to a woman who doesn’t respect him (yes, I laid into him for that one several times) and how he believes I will never trust him. I had difficulty trusting him because he continued, for almost 2 years past d day, to LIE, MANIPULATE, GASLIGHT, and REMAIN IN CONTACT with her. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? He started to defend himself again. I put up my hand and said, “Stop. Just stop. It doesn’t matter anymore. You’re finished with me. You’re finished with our marriage. You’re finished with our family. Stop talking. Stop hurting me. You keep breaking my heart and causing me pain. I’m done. I can’t keep doing this, especially now. Don’t talk to me. Don’t call me. Don’t even text/email me unless it deals with the kids.” Then I turned away and walked into our house. Our house. Not anymore.

    I realize I’m typing away, sharing pieces of the last week. Some of it may not even make sense, but I needed to share it. I needed to get it out. Maybe if I tell enough of my close friends and family, maybe if I share my story here, maybe I’ll get this pain, disappointment, and loss out of my heart and mind and body and soul. I don’t know. Thank you all for listening.

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  112. Jo, come see us on page 9, we've got some responses for you there... Page 8 is full. hugs!!

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