Monday, July 13, 2015

Word Hug

Should you feel an ache in the chest, a pressure in the rib cage, as if the heart would break, that is all right. Your heart is not an object that can break... But if it were, they say the heart that breaks open can hold the whole universe. Your heart is that large. Trust it. Keep breathing...
~Joanna Macy


123 comments:

  1. Yes trust your heart will heal its hurt. ,) trust that you are wonderful even if you don't feel wonderful. Trust you are loved even if you don't feel loved. You are someone that is irreplaceable. All of the whole world only has one of you. So no matter what your hurt level is you are someone that is a somebody. One moment of hurt cannot overcome a lifetime of hope. Keep your stride, hold your head up and let those tears out. You... Like me.... Will make it through - love you tons in spirit because we know how we feel inside. We are and will be something even better than the day before. - Ann from Texas

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    1. Thank u ann what a beautiful post.

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  2. It feels like moving a mountain when you're so shattered, but I promise, if there is one upside to this inner shattering, it is that this pain connects you to larger things and reminds you to let go of the little things. Now that you know true pain you realize other things don't matter as much, but you ARE more compassionate to the hurt of others. BWC is a perfect example of many open hearts in action. Ann from Texas I always love it when you post.

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    1. Oh I love that: "BWC is a perfect example of many open hearts in action." Just LOVE it. That's exactly what we are.

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  3. Fragments of HopeJuly 14, 2015 at 3:27 AM

    We've just returned from a short London sightseeing break away with the children. Last year's holiday was full of difficult triggers and tears but this one worked out better and overall helped us move forward although there were some conversations that could have been a bit more satisfactory. I just wanted to share this strange thing that happened when I got up early this first morning after we returned, the words of an old song leapt into my head out of no-where. 'I should've known better, to lie to one as beautiful as you. I should've known better, to take a chance on ever losing you.'.....' 'I've fooled around...' 'can you forgive me?) The song is by Jim Diamond https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x8PLjvmiIw . And I know this is something I've been looking for from my husband, a real heartfelt apology that also just says, what an idiot I was, you are great. I know in my head that what my husband did was nothing to do with me but self-esteem does plummet, especially as a stay at home mum. We become invisible. I did not think it was a lack on my part that made him stray but I wished he could have realised and remembered what he was turning his back on. I just wanted to post this to remind all here that your spouses should not have 'lied to one as beautiful as you.' The pain you feel and the efforts you are making to get through it, the openness to understand, or to try again, give chances or move on with courage is all part of your beauty.

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    1. Fragments of Hope, Thank-you for that. I'm sure many needed to hear that today. No, he should not have lied to ones as beautiful as us. We didn't deserve this. I'm glad that's sinking in even more deeply for you.

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  4. Trust it. My therapist told me yesterday that for the majority of our sessions after 19 months, that I already come in with the answers but I don't trust myself that it is the right answer. After betrayal it is hard to trust yourself, your judgements, your compass. I guess I was so focused on trusting him, I lost trust in myself. I never even realized it and that is said. So to all my girlfriends no matter where you are in the healing path, stay or go, don't lose trust in yourself just because you lost trust in him.

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    1. Lynn,
      That's amazing. And wonderful that your therapist can realize that you no longer really need her. You've got what you need...you just need to trust it. I knew I was "done" with therapy when I began hearing my therapist's advice to me without actually going to see her. We internalize all that wisdom. And, most of us, had it all along.

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  5. Good to know ... wasnt sure if i was just too numb to bother with the little things or spent to much time before dday tripping over petty things.

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    1. I suspect it was both. I definitely spent too much worrying about things that, in hindsight, didn't matter. But I became so numb post D-Day that I simply couldn't worry about little things. The result? I'm now far more discerning about what I spent my time/energy on. And far happier about it.

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  6. I needed to hear this today. I am 19 months from D Day and have been feeling so strong, but today I had a setback. I went to pick my sister and nephews up from the airport and as I sat to wait for her I noticed the woman working at the security gate staring at me. I smiled at her and then suddenly recognition came over me, as I realized it was her, the OW! I have only seen pictures of her and ran into her once when I was with my husband. She didn't work at the airport before. I started having a major panic attack, shaking and feeling sick, i wanted to run out of the airport but my sister was arriving within minutes. I wanted to confront her, yell at her, something. I was panicked, unsure what to do, where to go. Then I saw my nephews running up to me towards the glass exit doors. They rushed up to me and gave me a huge hug. I was shaking uncontrollably and started to cry, but they all thought it was because I was so happy to see them. Their hugs were exactly what I needed to distract me. (My sister doesn't know about the affair). I was able to pull myself together and get their luggage and after sitting in the car with them for a few minutes I was able to drive them to my house. I am still a little shaken up, but feeling alot better. The hurt just doesn't ever completely go away, but I have grown so much and become so much stronger. I know I will be okay if things don't work out in my marriage. I have been with my husband since I was 15 and never thought I could live without him. I have become more independent and while we are still together, I know I don't need him to survive. I will be okay on my own. Thanks again for the wise words that always seem to help.
    SR

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    1. Anon, I can't imagine what I would do if I saw the ow, you did the right thing by not reacting and the distraction of seeing your nephews and sister was definetly what you needed. Did you speak to your husband about what happened? Well done for keeping it together xxx

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    2. SR,
      It's incredible, I think, when we realize we're just fine on our own. It flies in the face of every love song ever written, or every romantic movie. But, in fact, it's only when we know we're just fine on our own that we can truly choose to be in a relationship with someone. It's a choice. And it's a gift when we offer it to someone. If they refuse that gift or throw it away, that doesn't make it any less valuable.

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  7. You Are Inspiring Anonymous. Yes You Are. Good. For. You.

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  8. I want to stop verbally abusing my husband on a weekl basis. I want to stop but can't stop this cycle. Can someone please help me?

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    1. Lynn,

      I don't know if this will help at all but I've had the worst time with anger and outrage. In my group with other betrayed spouses we imagined a thermometer from 0 to 10. 10 being flight and fright - horse out the barn - total loss of control. I worked on my 'anger' to figure that if I got to a 5 on that scale I could easily escalate to 10 quickly. So that's when I would initiate any "self - Care." steps into action. i.e. leave the room, house, etc go alone somewhere. Write my feelings down (like in the car). Take a walk if possible. Anything but going into his face. Sometimes I would just sit in my car and scream. Let the anger come forth without hurting anyone else. That's my way of saying "I need a witch Doctor. Now!"

      My husband had to learn to leave me alone during bad episodes. As his therapist wisely said "If she goes into the dragon cave - don't follow her!"

      I guess it's safe boundaries we are talking about for both husband and wife.

      And I have a problem if I drink any alcohol or whiskey for example - OH FORGET IT....I become a swirling dervish of hell.

      If something is really important I've heard people say they need to write it in an email rather than discuss directly if too emotional. Or in a therapy session if possible.

      It's so hard because the outrage for me at least almost seems to become more powerful over time. Not less. We can't undo what they did and we really can only control ourselves and it's an uphill struggle.

      I pray you find some relief and keep trying different tactics to feel your feelings but without it feeling abusive to both of you.

      Much love
      v

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    2. Lynn - I don't know what's happening between the two of you atm so I hope I'm not going to talk nonsense. I'm assuming he's not in any danger (it's not physical).

      If it's causing you pain too this has become counterproductive (there has to be a certain amount of anger, it's unrealistic to expect to contain your feelings after such a blow). But it's all been said and now you're looking after yourself as well as your husband. Where do you stop the cycle? Because your anger starts earlier than the verbal abuse. Can you stop it before it's in motion, at a very early stage of frustration, pain, annoyance? Because it is pain you're speaking from. So, cut yourself more slack about this. Acknowledging that you want to stop is all you need, really. You just have to stop early enough, while you still can. Before it escalates. Recognising when it starts. Being compassionate, not cross with yourself, not disappointed. Choosing to take a different route when you sense the first flickers, letting it go or maybe telling him 'I'm angry and I need your help to stop me losing it again'.

      Even if you do have difficult things to say to him, there is a way to say them without upsetting yourself even more. But finding this gets out of hand doesn't mean you should despair. I'm sure we all understand and have worn ourselves out at times doing just the same things. Every day you have a new chance to make a different choice in that calm place before the waves get too choppy, and if you can do so and stay with the discomfort it will get easier till you find the urge to abuse him is gone.

      It may be that you've done this in the past and have managed for a while but the pain and anger has got the better of you again. Just think of the times you have succeeded. It's only weekly, not daily. And neither of you is enjoying it.

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    3. Dear Val and Iris,
      Thank you so much I will try both tactics but the common theme is to stop it early. Thank you for taking the time to respond, you really understood me.

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    4. Lynn,
      I think Val and Iris have given you really good advice. I'll add one more possible tool. It's something one of my kids used to help calm down when she would get angry. It's a jar with a bit of soap in it and some sparkles. When we're angry, the sparkles (which are our crazy jumbled feelings) are all stirred up and we can't see or speak clearly. What my daughter was taught to do when she was angry was shake up the bottle really hard so that all the sparkles were in a flurry. And then to focus mindfully just on those sparkles as they slowly settled down. Any time her mind would wander into thinking about why she was mad or what an idiot so-and-so was and how life was so unfair and on and on, she was to bring her mind back to the sparkles and just watch them settle. And only when they'd completely settled and she was breathing calmly again, should she even consider speaking with whomever she was angry at. Often by then, she didn't even need to talk. But if she did, it was done with a deep breath and a respectful voice. If things ramped up again...back to the jar she went.
      Here's a link: http://carly-henderson.com/blog/2014/8/16/mindfulness-jars

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    5. Thank you all so much, I'm recognizing thanks to your post that yes this is anger and I'm seeing it at the beginning, never even thought about it or broke it down like this. I picture a thermometer one time in my head and have kept it at two degrees. Im giving myself permission to feel normal like Iris said and I asked him to leave me alone when I get like this. He really didn't want to but did. My soap sparkle jar is on the kitchen counter right now. There is hope if you can do it so can I. You all helped me get through the terrible early part of this nightmare. My husband is so sweet NOW I know this is not good for us at this point of healing. Forever thanks.

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    6. ((Lynn)) - love the jar. Lovely idea.



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  9. SR/Anon--I don't know if you have ever heard coincidences referred to as "God Shots" well honey that was a BIG one!! I hope you are feeling better by now...and continue to daily, hourly, weekly, and moment by moment.

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  10. Lately I'm feeling indifferent to my husband. In general things have been good ... but the connection we need to get through this just isn't happening. We are supposed to start therapy (again with new therapist) on August 17th. Perhaps that will help. He is busying himself with projects ... I am doing the same ... or reading here, which I do often daily.
    Innocence lost. We seem to fluctuate between loving gestures and/or acting like roommates. We don't kiss passionately and haven't had sex in three weeks ... h doesn't feel like it ... I don't much either ... as h says, "maybe the shrink can help us with that."
    Perhaps from my perspective, the problem is, I find myself saying, on more occasion than is healthy, "He's an idiot." (In my mind of course.). Knowing what I mean ... "He's an idiot for potentially losing me and even now, not delving into what he needs to to better himself .... "
    We are almost six month's post ... I am hoping this too shall pass. To make myself clear, I love him, yet my respect for him waxes and wanes. And when my respect for him is diminished, so too is my love. Indifferent. Blah. And don't like it.
    Yet I know, when we were separated I missed him terribly ... One day at a time ... one moment at a time ... my emotions will come into clear focus. I am sure of it.

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    1. Melissa. You are not alone! My H is horrible at discussing this whole thing. He just can't. He's been away (due back Friday) and we have only been messaging about non-important stuff.

      I sent him one heartfelt message....and nothing. Not even an acknowledgement he had read it.

      I am just about at the end of my tether. When he is home I think we will have to have one last talk but if it's going no where then I'm going to have to rethink what I want out of life.

      I'm in my late thirties....the thought of a lifetime with someone who can't scratch beneath the surface and make me feel wanted is, quite frankly, awful.

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    2. Sorry to hear that Clover. Even though my h is happier burying it ... I bring it up ... not in a hurtful way, but in a ... "If you want healing for both of us ... this needs to happen." At one point I was very clear ... there are really only two options ... Divorce ... Or work on the marriage. That's it. Very simple. ... Living in "Lala Land" or "Sweep It Under the Rug Land" are not options. After that I could see more effort on his part and it is obvious he loves me very much ... in his actions ... yet ... it doesn't feel like enough ... i believe that is to be expected given the betrayal. I will say this though ... my h was extremely confused ... at one point was planning to leave me for the OW (and not tell me about the affair, but he couldn't leave me) .... Tgen he told me about the affair and we entered the "this is hell" stage ... About two months later we separated for six weeks and he came back home about two months ago. His emotions have been all over the map ... he is definitely more himself ... Calmer, more loving, happier ... So perhaps your husband is struggling with some of what mine went/is going through. While we were separated I loosely followed "The Divorce Remedy" - the book certainly gave me insight ... some of which is like The 180. Clover, I can tell you are one strong lady ... you will figure this out. (Freakin idiots! They can't see the beauty and strength right in front of them. But again, that's because it's not about us ... it's about them and their need to fill that void in themselves. Sad.). Hugs to you, Dear.

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    3. 2 months out from dday my H is suggesting a few weeks separation our fights have become more often hes been very upfront but also still not showing me everything which i feel i need to heal? Im devastated by his newly voiced suggestion to separate clear our heads ... i want him to stay work on this with me! Lack of sleep crying for hours ... i dont see how a separation is going to help isn't distance how we got into this mess in the first place. I so badly want to be close to him. Communicate and find how to get throu this. Keep us in tact ... our family our life ... i can see some of u have or r going through this also ... why i posted here ... i feel like im losing it ... the though if not being married anymore puts me in tailspin i didnt make these choices. I didnt get married to get a divorce and i certianly never thought i be dealing with an affair. .. who really does i guess ... DEVASTATED ...... i dont feel enough time to give up ... im hurt extermelly but also want to try ... i know it will take 2 to make anything work. He wanted to leave last night but didnt and i wrongvto not tell him ok he xan take some time? I said im here dealing with it trying to function and he shoukd be too ... this is the hardest thing ever ... him cheating heartbroken him wanting a break to see if he still wants to be married ... even though he orig said he was all in devastating! !! Perhaps its cause im pushing for more info or sadly even though i dont wanna realize thats how he really feels. I know xan only control my actions but damn dint i get a say ... feeling helpless .. back to sleepless nights and swollen eyes.

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    4. Anon, I feel your pain… I went through the exact same thing with my husband. It's a longer story than I have time to go into right now… But please know that you are not alone. Even though I did not want to separation I somehow knew it would be good for us. Having said that, he definitely wanted it more than I. and had he not suggested it I would not have went there. we were separated for six weeks and he's been home now for two months. The truth be told he wanted the separation to last even longer… But I told him I could not do that if he did not come home to work on the marriage I was filing for divorce. It was not an ultimatum on my part it was something what I had to do for me. I could not live in limbo. I was either working on the marriage or I was getting a divorce. again, how was the separation good for us? Much like you and your husband, we were to 2 1/2 months out from the day and we were drowning in a quagmire of emotions. Neither of us could really brave and him in particular. I don't know about your husband, but mine simply cannot handle emotions. I am hoping therapy will help with that. so, what did I do to calm my fears prior to the separation? I found a fun online for a controlled separation and my husband and I filled it out together. Search online you will find them. In essence you must decide before the separation are you separating to get a divorce or are you separating and continuing to work on the marriage there truly is no other option. if you're both still working on the marriage then I would definitely set up the control of separation. Otherwise, it is a legal separation which is the first step toward divorce. in the controlled separation you will have an opportunity to indicate all the specifics, all the details. Will you communicate? How will you communicate? How often? how long is the separation? Who is going to pay the bills? If there are kids, who's going to care for them? The same with pets. Are you going to date other people? The answer to that is no unless you're going for a divorce. So then there would be no controlled separation. how often are you going to date? Who's taking care of the yard? all of these items are part of the controlled separation… It may sound like a lot, but it really isn't and it truly keeps everything clear so there is less anxiety and both parts. Continued and exposed.

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    5. So, as much as I hated it, I didn't sleep, and I cried through the night… I also became stronger… I realized I could face my greatest fear… And for us it was helpful. For me, the hardest part was I knew that he was in touch with her when he left. How did I know? He told me. And that was a part of our controlled separation I wanted to know. I accepted the contact I had with her because I knew that he needed that as a closure before he could move on in our marriage. (even though he kept saying it was not about her it was about his mixed feelings regarding being married at all. Can you say midlife crisis?). The truth be told… I am not certain that he is at this point convinced that he wants to continue to be married. Does that crush me? Yes, yet at the same time I recognize I cannot control him and ... He cannot control me either. Hopefully, we will come together and make this marriage better than ever and if we cannot… I know I will be more than fine. Finally, I will say to you that it should not be a hasty decision. He should not just move out one night because the emotions are too great to deal with. It should be planned and well thought out. Again, I will mention a book called the divorce remedy… You can read simply sections of it that apply to your situation and you can decide what, if any of it, it works for you. It was helpful for me. know that you are loved… More than you know. I am on here all the time so write anytime and I will be happy to respond.

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    6. This is a rough period for all couples who experience infidelity. Both the betrayer and the betrayed are working through so much inside. Put yourself in the betrayer shoes. They have shame, guilt, insecure feelings and not knowing the future too. They don't know if forgiveness is actually truly ever going to come and dealing with the extensive emotions of the betrayed is even harder than they could have imagined. Giving up even if the heart doesn't want to is so much easier than not being allowed to breathe and being on trial. Put yourself in the betrayed shoes. Blindsided, hurt, dismayed and with so many unanswered questions. The pain of betrayal stealing sleep, peace and comfort. To make it worse answers aren't coming fast enough or not at all. What I've learned ( I went through this exact experience) is that in our case I stated if you want me to respect you then you must respect me. You are so important to me, but you gave had time to deal with this way before I ever knew. Please if you love me be patient so I can catch up. I have decided 2 years 4 months later, this was the best sentence I ever spoke. It was telling him he still had my respect and audience no matter the situation as long as he reciprocated he was safe. I've told him he is important all the time now because he is. Just so you know I'm the one that got too sick and had to relocate to clear my head. I've known him since two weeks before my 13th birthday and it hurt so badly. Stay strong, we were apart relocating for almost 3 months. I didn't know it then but that's when the most changes occurred in our hearts. We missed each other. Love you tons - Ann from Texas

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    7. Dear Anon.

      This is a hard thing to hear but maybe you should let him go away. Maybe he wants to go to the horrible OW. So: take control. Tell him, as calmly and evenly as you can: 'I don't want to be with someone who disrespects me in this way. You are welcome to leave, but if you do so you must understand that I will be taking steps to protect myself and our family. I am not waiting here for you to come to your senses.'

      Make an appointment to see a family lawyer. Make it even if the process feels utterly unreal. You should be able to get a free consultation. Go and talk to a lawyer even if you have to pretend (as I did) that you're in a film. I actually imagined a whole scenario far more interesting than my own life in order to get myself into the office. Once I was there, I was quite calm.

      All you are doing initially is finding out what your rights are. You do not have to engage a lawyer. But if you need to do so later, you'll be prepared. And taking the initial step will make you feel stronger.

      This is only two months. Everything is very raw. I wish your foolish husband would pull himself together but he has messed up very badly and doubtless isn't able to admit it to himself. This is why he won't give up that information, he's terrified of losing control. He thinks it's all impossible to fix. You must draw a line. You do NOT treat me like this. And don't accept any blame. Stand your ground.

      I have been where you are. I want to take your hand and tell you that you WILL survive this. Yes, he should be dealing with it but he's weak and he's selfish. You are the strong one. He can't afford to roll around in the mud any longer, he shapes up or he ships out. Sometimes it's the shock of realising that he really is going to lose everything that wakes a person up.

      If he's not in therapy he needs to be. This is a problem he's created layer by layer and it's going to take some removing, no one else can do this for him and if he walks away now, he'll be taking his problem with him.

      You're not helpless. You're facing the possibility of a loss and it's scaring the hell out of you. This is where you get the chance to take the starring role in this drama and wrest it away from bad behaviour. There will be time to weep and rage later (there's a great deal of rage to come). It is unfair and it is not your fault.

      x

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    8. Anon, wow ... I did talk to text and some of my words came out kookie!! Sorry about that ... Hope you got the gist. Hugs!!

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    9. So much smart advice here. Melissa, you put it perfectly. There are only two options: divorce or work on the marriage. Any thing else is a recipe for misery.
      As for losing respect for your husband, been there, done that, mumbled "why am I with this asshole?" more times than I care to remember. What changed is the respect I gained for him as I watched him do the incredibly hard work of owning up to all the shame and guilt he felt for what he'd done and become, as he'd promised he would, "the guy you deserved all along". Sometimes he is still an asshole, as am I (though not as often as he is. ;)) But when people own their mistakes and take steps to make reparations, it's hard not to respect them.

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    10. Elle,
      I am so glad you said that! I think many of us may question why we're still with someone who did the things our spouses did. But I can say that I am slowly but surely gaining more and more respect for my husband by seeing him do the work he needs to do. Just like it takes a strong person to stay, I think it takes a strong person to face that shame head on and make changes.

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    11. and how many people do own their mistakes? Or work to repair what they're broken? And as for addressing their own 'propensities'... well that's not for the weak hearted.

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    12. Your responses ive read repeatedly with tears the reassurance is much needed and taken to heart since youve been there. My husbands told me alot some detail to much but i asked for it and so i must deal with the thoughts. I dont know if there truly is more or why i cant get this impulsive ache to see the records out of me it roaring like a lion and H resist saying hes made so many bad choices mistakes and believes hes told me alot and anything else is just more mistakes he thinks by not showing me is protecting me from true seeing gonna hurt like a bitch with obsessing for a bit too probably but tge not knowing leaves me wondering assuming and coming up with my own mind movies. Im interested to hear your input mind you i know alot of detail does actually seeing when where how much matter? My intenses need to know grows stronger as he resists. Out to eat, bars, a few bills paid supposedly no big item gifts other then some sex toys he told me about. The sexually part is upsetting the lying and deceit eats me to the core ive said it before id like to thing im wounded deeply but not broken though i feel like im crumbling into a nervous breakdown mess. I was feeling better until i learned some more details which i asked about recently he lied them came clean which felt like lying all over again. He said its not new lies he covering about old mistakes. Sti lying isnt it? The first few weeks he was all in. As i push this issue some distance i shouted give a fuck then show me! He said how do you figure i dont care im sitting here in hell misery i created he agreed much easier to call quits or notes he could have just left to be w ow or alone but knows ive always been what he wants ill admit life side tracked us for a few years kids new job just life both our faults but not a pass to cheat and long term on top of it vs one night stand ...

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    13. Part 2 its hard to post the whole story i prob dont have to its your story too. Hes never remarked he wanted to leave or didnt know if ge wanted to b married till i pushed for info. Is this his true feelings. Is this a front to stop mr from asking or maybe he is confused. He said everything has to be on my terms now this is new to him ive always tried to please him handle take care of it all. Hes had health issues too forwhich ive become accustom to easinv his burden allowing him great leniency to go out relax whatever ... innocence trust i dont regret treating him like that even though i may have been putting me last. H AND KIDS first thats just how i am. Interesting he said the things im saying are making him question marriage. .. is he happy. Does he just want multiple sex partners etc he does say he cares for ow i know they said i luv u ... not sure if alot he told ow was true or bs to continue to get what ge wanted the ow emailed i choice not to respond and know she is prob half truths and lies to try get us to split.

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    14. Part 3 sorry i am rambaling so much in side. So he may go spend wkend at his mom ... wi he b there? Idk? But i also cant keep just keep h at home forever. I told h i dont want u to go but im also not begging u to stay also i said it wont b come anx go as u please i need to know when ur leaving when u coming home where u be. Sighhh killing me but i said i tokd u what i need. U telling me what he needs so guess we need to respect that toba point and where reasonable. Right. .... i guess well see what the weekend holds glad its friday and i can cry in bed and get up at my own pace. Not sure whats worse these days trying to go to sleep or waking up to the thoughts. Hugs back to all of you. TGIF sorry for lengthy post i will try to be short and sweet work in progress ...

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    15. It's all still so new for you. Please understand that all those emotions and feelings are all normal shock reactions your body has when it is going through emotional trauma. Yes, you are thinking correctly when you say that you must allow your husband to exist and go to work, day to day activities without being hounded. I'm so proud of you. You are getting "there". The point where deciphering between pain and anxiety exists. Stay strong and rest. Even if sleep doesn't come rest your mind my enjoying the breeze outside or a little sunshine. I'm so proud of you for letting your husband think and speak to you openly and still maintaining your inner strength. We are here for you on this journey. You are never alone. God knows we all needed each other in this. Love you girls - Ann from Texas

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    16. I read online free chapter divorce remedy. .. i think i buy thx u so moved id consider booking the 2 day intense therapy and flying to see Michele Weiner! If only i could find someone like that by home!

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    17. Anonymous,
      God, do I feel the pain you are going through. I was plagued with questions. Things j just HAD to know. When I got the answers, some made me feel better and others made me feel worse. Looking back, there are some I wish I had never asked. But any time my husband appeared hesitant to answer, it just made it worse because I felt like he was hiding something and then I became more determined to get that answer.
      At some point, I had to start writing questions or requests down and giving myself 24 hours to determine whether or not it was really that important to me. If when that time was over, I still needed to know, I asked or told him what I needed. As someone here told me, the what, when, and where may help, but the why may never fully make sense to you. Ultimately , you need to know what you need to know. And your husband will have to confront his shame head on to help you heal. Ironic how the person who hurt you most now has to help you heal.
      We had three D-Days. One on December where I found phone records and was told it was an emotional affair, one in February when the OW texted him and I caught him responding and one in April when I discovered the full truth of the physical affair and that it had resumed about a week after the February text. The OW is a co-worker who he developed a friendship with that led into an affair, this had been going on for two years but only became physical in the last year. My husband has said and done a number of stupid things out of fear, anger, shame and basically just not thinking. We just talked last night about exactly what the hell he was thinking when he resumed it in February. Unfortunately, it took D-Day 3 in April for him to fully pull his head out of his ass and realize exactly what he faced losing over someone who he never intended to leave the marriage for anyway. This is something that we'll be talking about at our next counseling session and hopefully our therapist can kind of help weigh in on the mental aspect of it. I feel like I'm rambling but my point is that sometimes they are still just not really thinking clearly. My husband led two lives for two years and it took him a little while to grasp the magnitude of what he had done and start actively working toward addressing his own issues and repairing the marriage. I'm not trying to defend the way my husband acted or your husband's resistance to providing you what you are asking for. I think you deserve to be told whatever you ask. Just know that it may take a little time for him to think clearly. I hope that time comes soon. In the meantime, you have to focus on you. You can't make him do anything, but you can take care of yourself.
      Hugs!

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    18. Anonymous,
      Ann from Texas is right. You're experiencing emotional trauma. Your brain and body are in shock. Try and rest. Try and eat something healthy. Trust that this will pass.
      As for your husband's refusal to show you what you say you need, it reminded about my own need to see and know "everything." It was only when my husband agreed to it that I realized I didn't actually want to. But as long as he was refusing, it felt like he was the one controlling things. And that felt HORRIBLE.
      Also...consider this, written by a cheating husband on SurvivingInfidelity.com:
      "Trickle truth is awful bullshit. I see that very clearly. It's demoralizing, soul-sapping, hope-robbing, excruciatingly painful, cowardly, and I could easily go on. I subjected my wife to it for a long time. I would confess, she would react and adjust, I would maintain that was it, I would try to minimize and contain, fall back, retreat, mount another stupid defence, maintain steadfastly that was it, look her in the eye and keep lying but say to myself that it was always a little bit less, that we were closer to the heart of it, that I was a little bit more honest while at the same time being double-think and denial enough to not see that I was still lying, that it wasn't nearly enough. And then drop another piece of truth, more anguish, less trust, more emotional betrayal. Another night of heart-wracking wailing and rending that just puts my own crude, selfish asshole-ishness into stark relief. Another night of deep soul scraping, of personal questioning of self-worth, of self-loathing, of wondering how such a complete and total shithead deserves even the ghost of another chance."

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    19. So helpful ... i told my husband today he very important to me and i haven't given up on him or us. It is still so new raw maybe i wanting so much so fast ... some sun on my face woukd do wonders funny i feel like im in emotional hell ... a mistake that changed it all with a snap of my finger and as soon as the words came out of his mouth and the flood gates of connecting tge dots came like rapid fire with an ah ha! Im not crazy and then ... how could i have been so dumb? to my knowledge the first encouter was around 4 years ago theyve know it other as friends for 10 or something like that it was a few times here and there. 2 years ago became for frequent and the last year weekly even multiple times per week. Geez!!!! And big sigh. You ladies have helped me greatly a trusting innocence isnt dumb, a loving and wanting to please wife and mama isnt dumb ... his choice to cheat when things got hard or indifference was dumb ... plain fucking stupid .. really. If i take this instance out of the story hes is still the best thing that ever happened to me. I believe in H and us even in my desperate dark hours when the tears fall like wildfire and breath feels taken from me. TIME a truly 4 letter word ... i need more time ... i shared also thus quote with my husband "ones best success comes after their greatest dissappointments" henry ward beecher. H did say hes not one to make mistakes and its killing him he did this over and over. He feels used by the ow and me not understanding why may be as strong as H saying now wtf why did i do that. He claimes at first it was the sex attention thrill maybe? But after long it was stressful he wanted out but the fear of me finding out kept him going there lying covering to quiet the ow threats. Its so hard for me to fathom ... my husbands not really one to be controlled. Listening to some things is like this has to be made up no way, full of shit? How would we truly ever know it all? It will always be to a point unknown? I guess ... i will try to enjoy this sunny weekend read my books and let some sun on my face .... im still not ready to back down ... i want to see to know more but maybe just maybe more time is needed for more clarity for us both. Well see if he goes away or stays home ... i shouldnt obsess ... i can only control me. All posts are so welcomed and appreciated, truly! Truly! TRULY! Xo

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    20. H stated home by his own choice. We had a date saturday it was very nice. I felt very emotional yesterday tried to cry to myself ...did wind up crying to him. Off day ... i cried bcuz i dont like who i am right now ... an emotional mess or am i? I give myself credit for getting out of bed each day thats a start right working taking care of kids ... but i dont like how some days seem hard to get out of bed the house is hard to keep up with and we eat out a lot more then norm ... im short with the kids and find my mind is distracted ill go to fridge for milk and pull out grapes ... scrambled i guess cause life scrambled? When i cried to H He was aggrevated or say not again but asked what can he do ... go bike riding? Buy more plants for garden just let me lay in bed? I wiped my tears after an hour and went about the day and read 6 chapters of after the affair .... monday and that ache in my stomach creeps up on me .... still surviving just needed to vent. I wish you all a good week. Xo

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    21. Wasnt aggrevated i meant ...

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  11. Fragments of HopeJuly 15, 2015 at 2:17 AM

    Dear SR, I feel for you, what a terrible shock. You are strong in the face of something so shocking it sends reverberations down through the years. I wish you continued resilience.

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  12. I have been hesitant to post because I am struggling with feeling slightly ungrateful. The OW in my case is a co-worker of my husband. My husband and I talked and talked about him continuing to work there after I found everything out. He was ready to quit but I felt strongly that quitting and either being unemployed or having to start a new job would add another huge level of stress to our situation. I also didn't want to feel like our family situation was being dictated by her action or lack thereof. So we put boundaries in place (no contact with her unless absolutely necessary for work and a daily text telling me when she had left for the day, how many times he saw her and if there was ever an attempt to initiate any type of contact) and decided we would wait it out and re-evaluate as we neared the end of the summer. The OW had talked to my husband previously about leaving and/or moving but I didn't put much stock in anything she had said. Well, much to my shock, she gave notice that she was quitting on Monday. I was ecstatic and my husband still is. I know it's not a magic pill to fix what has happened but knowing that she's not there every day removes a major hurdle for me.
    So here is my struggle... I know I've mentioned previously that I battle my unresolved need to have some type of closure. I have not had any contact with her since April, but there's always an underlying urge to just do something. Now I find myself at odds... So grateful that she is leaving but still fighting that urge to confront her. I know in my heart it will bring no good. I hear what all of you say in regard to the OW needing to be cut out of the picture completely. I know that she's not worth my energy but the thought of letting her just walk off without me saying anything just eats at me.
    I want to just be able to accept this as a positive thing and really good step in the right direction. And I pray that I maintain my self control and some level of class through this period.
    As always, thanks for listening.

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    1. I understand the "cut the OW off and no contact"...I really do. I also KNOW that if I hadn't had it out with her (especially since I knew her for years) that it would have eaten me alive also. I did have contact with her. I got to speak my mind to her on a few occasions and regardless of the effect (or lack of effect) on her, it did make me feel better. I got to tell her what I thought of her and i don't care if she cared what I said, didn't agree with what I said or ignored what I said...I don't care. It made me feel better to say them. Just like venting to my WH and telling him what I thought also makes me feel better. I told them what I thought of them and what they did and they can take it in any way they want. I did it for my peace of mind. I now want no contact. I think its a personal decision. It depends on your personality IMHO. I needed it, I did it, I feel better for doing it, now she is a nothing to me and my H. IF you feel you need to do it, I say do it. I don't know if it will make you feel better but it sure made me feel better (in most ways) Just be prepared that you may and probably will hear some things that you don't like either. Just remember that what comes out of her mouth can be as much venom or more, than what you are giving her and that she is probably lying her butt off also....if you can put that into perspective and not care what she has to say then I say do it if it will make you feel better.

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    2. I agree with Lizzie, I faced the OW and felt empowered and free of her. But his is not for the weak hearted. I wrote in detail my experience on this site under a comment. I had a different approach but it did help me to get closure.

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    3. Lizzie and Lynn,
      It's always good for me to hear a different perspectives. I appreciate your insight. I do remember reading what you wrote about your experience, Lynn, and being in awe of your composure and strength. The OW has a history of either attempting to lie to me or just rolling over and both of those reactions infuriate me. I'm not overly concerned with it upsetting me, more so that my anger will take over and I will not maintain my composure. Any face to face with her would have to happen at my husband's workplace and I don't want to completely lose my sh** there and have everyone think I'm a complete lunatic, especially since he is going to continue working there.
      I have a little more time to think about it.

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    4. Dandelion,
      I absolutely understand the compulsion to tell the OW exactly what we think of her. What I sometimes imagine, however, is an old Far Side comic strip which shows a dog owner talking to a dog: "You're a bad dog, Fido. You pooped on the carpet. What a naughty boy you are Fido." And what the dog hears: blah blah blah blah blah blah.
      I suspect that what happens with many OW. They've got their own story and they don't really want to hear that they've been fooling themselves. So they'll either hear blah blah blah. Or they'll hear the yelling or nastiness and it will simply confirm what they already believe, which is that we're nasty and nags. So it comes down to what, exactly, facing her will accomplish. By all means do it if you don't think there will be a cost to doing it...but my fear is that the cost, if it goes badly, is higher than any potential reward.

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    5. Decide why you want to confront her. If is to try to make her feel guilty, she doesn't care. Most of these women have a fantasy hallo around their heads. They will do anything to keep the lies to themselves intact. She doesn't care what you think at all. But if it is for you so you can heal and move forward then think about what you want to say and what you hope to achieve. Your better than her to begin with so if you confront her do it with grace, matter of fact attitude and calm. I had to confront her and find out what type of woman could keep a 2 year hold on my husband. My intent was not to get back at her, tell her she had no right to my husband etc. she already knows that. You want to come out of this looking like the lady you are not a woman in Crazy Town who totally lost it. I hope I'm making sense but I'm just not saying it very well.

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    6. Elle and Lynn,
      You both gave me a lot to consider. I read your responses and talked with my husband about this. Thank you both for helping me to take a deep breath and put some thought into my motives. I think this comes down to my feeling that by not confronting her, I am allowing her to get away with what she has done and walk away from this unscathed.
      A confrontation would probably produce one of three responses from her: 1) More lies; 2) A submissive response; or 3) An attempt to "stand up to me". My reaction to any of these three is most likely going to be the same... anger and an inability to stay composed.
      Ultimately, it is not up to me to serve up justice to her. As has been said before, she will be her own undoing. Either that or she will continue to live a life of selfishness, lies and delusion. In either case, it's not my problem. And I can walk away knowing that while the pain of this sucks, I'm not her and that in itself is a small victory.
      It stinks to admit that even though I'm working through so much that I still have those moments where I wish for once I didn't have to be the better person. I wish I could just be petty and selfish but I know that's not really me. I don't need to sacrifice my integrity in an effort to humiliate her.

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    7. Dandelion,
      You can be that person -- petty and selfish and full of self-righteous vengeance. But I suspect that, once the adrenaline high of that wears off -- you won't feel too good about yourself because, really, that's not you.
      The desire to somehow ensure she's held accountable fades with time. In truth, she owed you nothing. Sure it speaks to her character that she got involved with a married man. But it was your husband who had made promises to you, not her.

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    8. Secrets kept, though not theirs be
      Records safe under lock and key
      Burdens big, with heavy heart
      What to stop?
      When to start?

      I struggled with confronting the OW, or at least her husband. I was tired of keeping a secret that was not mine to keep. But I wanted to become a better person. I wanted to hold my head high, with dignity. I wanted to sleep at night.
      So I kept my secrets
      and I also I kept my records (though I gave them to my sister for safe keeping)
      But I made the choice to stop being a victim and to stop letting her control me and to find a little bit of beauty in every day.
      It didn't happen right away...starting that process was hard. I played the victim well. I was very good at it. But guess what? It was only hurting me. Everyone else's lives resumed as normal, and no one cared what a superb victim I was. :)
      Little by little, the days got better. I didn't have to really decide when to start. I found that once I finally decided what I was going to stop….the start simply followed.

      I am 2 years, 6 months and 8 days post DDay. And I only know that because I plugged it into a date calculator. :) While I still know the horrible date, it replays in my mind more as a movie than real life.
      My burdens get smaller with each passing day.

      Love yourself and believe in yourself, and remember the most important advice my sister gave to me: “You need to forgive yourself for staying with him.”

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    9. Thank u for the beautiful post. I am so happy to read that u have come so far.

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  13. I need some advice. I just got back from being away for a few days and I found out that my husband got drunk and looked at porn. I asked him, why would you do this to us, our marriage, me? He said he was drunk and tempted. He than gets mad at me and says, if you can't handle the truth than you shouldn't of asked. He's not telling me anything anymore. Tells me to stop being so weepy and that I'm overreacting. I really don't want to be treated this way, but don't feel strong enough or capable to be on my own. My husband will protect himself at the cost of hurting me. He has so much shame that he can't face. I want to get away for a few day because I don't want him to twisted this around and blame me. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Lou Lou

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    1. does your H see porn as a compulsion. Is it being overused? Does he listen to your concerns about porn?
      Sounds like you guys would get alot out of a 12 step group. Sounds like he has the "addict" demons of shame and hiding. However, if he isn't interested in confronting his behavior, you can find one to help you to find strength to be able to put down boundaries--try cosa-recovery.org or codependents anon. You don't have to label yourself as anything, but for me, the 12 steo tools have helped me find the strength to speak up for myself, own my own life, and not let my H's problems control me.

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    2. Lou Lou,
      If porn is a problem in your marriage (and it is in many marriages where there has been infidelity), then there needs to be very clear rules around it. If you read my "Five Ways Betrayed Wives are Silenced" you'll read that anger is a really effective way of getting us to shut up. Suddenly you're defending yourself for asking while HE is the one who should be on the hot seat.
      Are you two in counselling to learn more effective ways to communicate? What are the consequences if he violates the rules around porn. This isn't about you policing him, it's about you setting up boundaries that allow you to feel safe in your marriage. At the very least, Lou Lou, I would urge you to get a counsellor for yourself to help you feel stronger and more capable in your marriage. You're giving your power away.

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    3. MBS, Those are really good points. I sometimes forget how valuable those 12-step programs can be. It can be hard, especially when that "co-dependent" label makes a lot of us feel as though we're somehow being blamed. But if we can get past that, we can get a lot of wisdom and help from those groups.

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    4. My therapist frequently makes the point that I was giving my power away, in the relationship. I haven't even done that much of the 12 step stuff but the couple of times I went helped me to flip the switch to own my own power and let me know that it was okay to hold on to myself and my boundaries. It also helped me recognize that what I accepted as "normal" from him, was actual selfish, out of control, and immature. I learned that most of the things he said to me was to control me and protect himself. Boy have things changed in the past year....

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    5. MBS, I tended to do a lot of accommodating of my husband. I was such a people pleaser -- just wanted everybody to be "happy" -- that I routinely put my own wants/needs aside in favour of everyone else's. Of course, my resentment grew. Life is so much easier when we're able to recognize what we need and want, either ask for it or figure it out ourselves, and stop expecting other people to guess and give it to us.

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    6. Thank you Elle and MBS for your wise insights. I did end up going away for a few days to clear my head and it gave me some of my power back. I going to look for a therapist and start to get the help I need. The anger that my husband uses to get me to back down used to be so confusing to me. It's just like you said Elle, "Anger is really an effective way to getting us to shut up". My H shame would do anything to get me to be quiet. But now I can see what he is doing and pull back and just observe his "Gaslighting tactics". My boundaries are beginning to be established as I become more sure of my perceptions and not get tricked by my husbands blame shifting. Elle, I really learned a lot from your post, "Five Ways Betrayed Wives Are Silenced". Your blog has giving me so much comfort as my family, friends and even therapist didn't get the pain I was in and made me feel like I was just weak and should get over it. What you do Elle, literally saves so many wives lives. I am so grateful I found you and all the wonderful strong women on this site. Blessings to all of you.
      Lou Lou

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    7. Lou Lou, Glad you found us too!
      So many don't understand the pain associated with betrayal. Fortunately some do...and not just those who've been cheated on. There are some wonderful therapists and marriage counsellors who really do get it.

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  14. I had the option to read every single message that went between my h and the ow. He reset his phone and it uploaded it all.

    But, you know what? I didn't want to. Initially I did and my h asked me not to. So, I gave it 24 hours and realised that actually I don't need every detail.

    He lied, she was complicite.

    Do I need to know exactly what was said between them? No.

    Because it isn't the details that hurt me, it's the broader spectrum of lies.

    I am going to pick H up from the station in 20 minutes from a 10 day business trip. I know he has been staying about an hours drive from the ow. I freaked when he first left but now - mostly thanks to you ladies - I am eerily calm.

    Sam said something that resonated with me "I cannot control him" and I took it to heart. If he is going to cheat there is not much I can do about it, he will find a way.

    My job now is to make myself strong, so that if I do find out he has been in touch or met up with her....I know what I need to do.

    It's a scary day for me!

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    1. Clover,
      That's such a good point. Our first marriage counsellor wanted to do a "full disclosure" session, in which my husband had to tell me EVERYTHING that had happened and answer every question of mine. I ultimately decided not to. I realized that I had all the info I really needed. And the fact that my husband was willing to do this was really all I needed to know.
      I think it's important to have this type of thing when someone is holding back info, or there's reason to believe there's a lot more to the story. But details? They're just...details.

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    2. Ladies i hope either i see the records i want or i jnstead learn to let it go. Bravo to you for being there. I am learning to let my H go about some things i cant keep him locked at home nor follow him everywhere doesnt mean i have to like it just deal and for me thats a start this weekend maybe hell he maybe staying with family for the weekend for a break weve been fighting alot i dont want him to go but told him i am going to respect it for the weekend if tgats what hes telling me he needs. Clover 10 days is huge that shows your strong in itself like me im looking to move through day by day not move mountians overnight. Hang in there. My daily chant.

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    3. Yes Elle I agree too. At first I was angered and hurt by not having all the info right away.... "How could he not want to share with me if he loved me".... Now I know because he loved me he didn't dare tell me every little thing. There was wisdom in this that I didn't understand. I already knew what had happened I didn't need every mental image. It has taken me long enough to heal this much.... and that's nothing short of a miracle ,) -Ann from Texas

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    4. I find myself obsessing about it ... dates. Times places i want to see bank records phone records to confirm somethings ... i read your posts or do I. H doesnt want to show me told me alot but thinks seeing wont help but add more questions .... big sighhhh i know all still raw.

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  15. Yes Clover, Elle and Ann I agree completely.
    At one point I thought I wanted to read all of the texts between them. There was no way to do that, as they have been deleted long-ago, However, when I mentioned it to my husband he said no, you don't want to do that. And I said why? What did you talk about? He had already told me different things that they talked about but at that point what he said was… And it rings so true… That even if it was a :-) it would hurt me. Yes, there are a few questions that he answered for me that now I wish I would not have asked.
    Clover, my best to you. Although, I don't think you need it for me because you are one spunky lady. Anon, be strong this weekend ... He is with family, you cannot control him, but you can control you… So be so very good to yourself this weekend. You deserve to be treated like a queen… So do it yourself ... do it with your friends ... treat yourself the way you deserve. It is breathing space for both of you. Breathe… And know that everything will be just fine.
    Hugs to all of you incredible ladies out there.

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  16. I still wish I could read all the texts (deleted). Why? Because when I first found out, my husband lied about the reality of the affair. I agonized for a whole year about what he was telling me (which was so much less than what the reality was). He originally said it was because he didn't want me to be hurt any more than I was but the reality is, he was covering his own butt and was TERRIFIED of losing me BECAUSE of the reality. Now, I wish I could read the remainder of the texts because I still don't know if I can believe that he is telling the truth. Is it the details that I need, no. I have sufficient information to know what it was, even if the physical part was more than he is still telling me. There are two reasons that I would like them, first and most important is to know if he is still lying or if he is finally telling the truth. I will no longer live in a marriage full of lies or with someone who lies to me on a regular basis. I need something to sink my teeth into that confirms to me that he is no longer lying. Also, I want as many details as I can get because I want everything in the open for me so that there is no longer any intimate secrets that only the two of them share. I know I can never get all the details, but I feel like there are too many secrets that he is keeping. I know he is no longer in any contact with her but the secrets that I believe that he still has is like a knife still stuck in my back. I need for me to feel like they don't share intimate secrets any longer. I am not at the point of believing that he has told me sufficient information yet. I have let a lot of the smaller details go but I am still not where you ladies are. maybe someday I will be able to let more of it go.

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  17. Lizzie - I completely understand this. Imo you should know the extent of the physical encounters, I found out months later by reading something on the internet that they must have been in the same (dull, provincial) town at the same time and I hadn't been told about it - turns out this was their last meeting. It was still before DD when my H told me what he'd been doing so it didn't make a material difference, he had missed it out because frankly, they do not tell you everything. I phoned him at work and asked him if it was true and he drove home immediately; he knew this was probably the last straw. He came clean about this and one other detail I couldn't have known. I'm thinking about this now and I can't even remember what it was.

    It wasn't the detail. It was the fact he hadn't given me the facts, still, after months. I was just sick of it. I have just seen another marriage end two years after DD because the husband didn't reveal an incident. Bang, over. You need to be able to make sense of events.

    'the reality is, he was covering his own butt' - Yep. He needs to give you a timeline of events. To go naked. Tell him he has more to be afraid of if he doesn't do so. My friend's husband is desolate at the end of his marriage. But he made the mistake of arguing and he blamed his wife for not creating a 'safe space' for him to tell her. She called bullshit.

    But the texts - I wonder about this. People talk a lot of rubbish in these kinds of 'relationships'. I think of it a bit like the romance dramas my teenage daughter watches, where the heros are vampires or princes or characters from fairy tales but all in modern dress and carrying cell phones. The women are even more vapid than the men and interchangeable and the scripts are - I don't have the words for the scripts. They sound as if they've been written by a twelve year old imagining how adults might sound when she's not in the room. Are they computer generated?

    Unfortunately putting something in writing means it can be read long after the urge is gone. You can write while under the influence. No wonder people try to hide these things. It doesn't mean he meant any of it. And it doesn't mean she did either (men are sometimes surprised to learn). People in these situations lie. They pretend and they make up stories. They are immature and silly. They are grotesque. And I wouldn't worry that they shared secrets: in all likelihood he is trying to forget what they 'shared'. The intimacy is with you - if he can be honest and mature.

    I asked my H to tell me a couple of things about the OW that people wouldn't know - embarrassing things she'd hate me knowing. It was surprisingly hilarious when he did so. Any glamour people attach to infidelity is, I'm quite sure, misplaced.

    But no one can walk your walk for you, as Elle says. You know what you need.

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    1. Iris,
      You made some really great points. Those involved in an affair will say and do all kinds of things. I know my husband surely did. He basically said and did what he thought would lead to sex. It's hard for the betrayed spouse because we sometimes buy into the idea that the affair is all romance and passion. We lose sight of the fact that the OW is often nothing like what we think. I had this image of the OW as this bubbly, positive, attractive person all based upon some things my husband had told me early on before the full truth came out. I know a lot better now but sometimes I fall back into wondering what he saw in her. A few weeks ago, I finally asked if there was anything he didn't like about her. He said she was "loud, obnoxious, and annoying" and that he got tired of having to feed her ego. I wish I had known that in the beginning, but I don't think he even realized it then. Add that to the details I know about the physical part (sex in the backseat of his truck in parking lots) and I am embarrassed for her, even if she doesn't have the awareness to be embarrassed for herself.
      These are the things I have to remind myself of on the tough days.

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    2. Dandelion, hello :)

      That does seem to be the deal. I'm not sure if there really is a gender difference or if it's cultural when it comes to sex, certainly both parties want something and are unlikely to be honest about what that is.

      I must have read hundreds of these stories in the last 30 months and so often the AP appears to be an irritant. 'loud, obnoxious, and annoying' for you and in my case she was 'passive and her conversation wasn't interesting'. In other words she was boring. Fact is the OW was just a means to an end. No one behaved well, except you. We find ourselves wishing people had more style.




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  18. Just a few thoughts run through my head. Tell you husband exactly how you feel. Tell him. The worst has already happed. Tell him you have no trust, no believing everything blindly, and you feel like the OW and your husband had something special, you don't know what it was, that is not on your marriage. I felt exactly like you did. I didn't believe him, I thought who is this OW who can keep my husband coming back for two years? Just a hunch, based on my experience is if you feel like something is off, it is. He is trying to control the circumstances and you through information. I also had to learn (I am very stubborn). That my husband could only tell me the truth when I was calm and prepared myself to hear hurtful dirty, painful stuff. If the only way you can move forward is find out everything you want to know then he should be more than happy to do so, not to control but build trust. The thing that bugged me was I would never know the entire truth ever for sure because it looks like the same mouth that the lies came from that now truth comes out of, yeah same voice, same eyes. It took me 9 months to resolve all the things you mentioned but I tackled one issue at a time. I didn't realize it but I was going to get to the bottom of each issue no matter what, if I didn't get the answer I would try a different method or tactic but ask the same thing until I got the truth. I found out, he did tell me the truth, no they didn't have anything special and it was not glamorous at all. She is in no way better than me. You know it when you get information that is understandable, reasonable and there is no bullshit. Be patient as you can, my husband's affair story changed as he figured out a lot about the why and how. Out of the blue in counseling he said "I was had". First time that ever came out of his mouth but he had been thinking and processing it. Figuring it out. I think this was the most ugly phase of moving forward for me.

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  19. Lizzie sorry to keep on about this but your situation hit home. Your husband does you no favors in justifying or glossing over the betrayal. It is like when you get a splinter, you bring out the needle, tweezers, ointment and bandaid. He skips the painful part and says I just want a bandaid. All he wants is a covering. He wants to skip the treatment and hide. He can't heal what is concealed what is covered. How can you both heal what he is covered up?

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    1. Thanks for the comments. So far, he is saying that he has told me everything that he remembers. The problem is his memory. He says he can't remember so much. Even a time line. I try in different ways to try to get him to think of it differently to see if it helps....a tiny bit more has come out. His therapist told him that he needs to think about it when he is in a good place on his own instead of keeping it locked away in his head until I need to ask questions. He becomes very anxious and anything that he might remember when he is calm -is just gone. He has general anxiety disorder so he gets anxious very easily. I just don't know if its all memory issues or if its convenient that the therapists are saying it is probably true. I don't know these things because he has been lying to me for so long. It is true, I can't tell if the truth is now coming out of the same mouth all those lies were coming out of. I hear him say things and I don't know if I can believe him. Eg....We have had to estimate how long ago it started based on what car he believes he was driving at the time of the initial physical affair 10 years ago. I get thats a long time to go back but why do I have to do all the work to try to figure it out while he just keeps saying-I don't remember and forgets about it again. He tells me he has tried so hard and would tell me if he could remember but won't tell me a guess. I don't want guesses. So we have an estimate of when it started. The physcial affair started again in late 2012-he thinks, again he is estimating what he thinks he may remember based on questions I ask him and what team he was coaching at the time. He had originally said that they met for coffee every few weeks (when nothing physical was happening) and I had understood that he meant for the 9 years, after asking him about each team he coached over the years individually, it turns out he thinks he only met her for coffee a little before the physical started. Thats a difference of about 7 years. How can you forget that kind of info. I ask him about condoms, he insists that he always used them but doesn't actually remember putting them on. He says it was like she was faceless. Doesn't remember what she looks like (not sure I believe that). I have seen some of the texts and they appear to be very intimate....like "I know, I think of you 24/7" and others and he says it was her but I tell him, that is a reciprocation of an intimate text and he just says he doesn't remember.

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    2. part 2
      I tell him I want to know what it was like between them. Really thats what I want to know. I want to know what she meant to him at the time, not now but at the time. He doesn't remember ever speaking intimately with her, he doesn't remember responding that he loves her too except that he told me he did say it a couple of times. I know he was living in a fog but he has to have some idea of what it was like between them. Even if it was fantasy talk or lies on his part....I just need some info. I imagine all kinds of different things. I just need to know how they were together before I can decide if its something I can forgive and get past. He says it was nothing special and she was like his whore-like that should make me feel better. In her mind, they were in love, in his, it was stupid and nothing great but can't explain it. He tells me now, how great I am, how beautiful I am, that he stares at me while I am sleeping because he loves looking at me, that he thinks about me all day and can't wait until he gets home to me, how sexy he finds me and that I am the best person he knows and can't live without me....so what was he thinking about me before? Did he think I was ugly, fat, boring, a terrible person etc. I need to know these things. They may have been in his head and he now sees me differently but I need to know what he was thinking at the time. Problem is, I don't think he knows. Therapist believes he has a disassociation disorder-like he was living two lives and one life didn't touch the other. This would probably explain his lack of memory. Maybe I just need more time to let it go. Sometimes I feel like I can get past without the info and have my own belief as to how it was between them but then other days, I find it agonizing to think about and wonder. They both have their own story about how it was, whether its all lies or just how they both perceived what is going on? I don't know, probably a little of both. As he goes through therapy, hopefully more will come out. During one session he remembered something that took place 10 years ago (which is amazing that he could remember that far back) that she said while they were having sex in our car. She apparently screamed "F*** me hard" very loudly and it made him nauseous, so much so that when he was driving home he had to stop and vomit. I asked why would he continue speaking with her and then many years later resume having sex with her? His answer, which is the standard answer-"I don't know".

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    3. Lizzie,
      I think a LOT of these guys completely dissociate. I think it becomes so compartmentalized that it's tough to unpack, especially when it's your wife who wants the info. Eye-witness accounts are notoriously unreliable because the human memory is incredibly unreliable. Especially when it's affected by stress.
      So...that's a long way of saying I think you'll get your details when his brain has the time and space to sift through. And by then, you may not even want or need them. I completely understand wanting a timeline. But I suspect when you wonder what he was thinking about YOU during all this...I don't think he was thinking of you. I think you were tucked away in another part of his psyche. It was when my husband told me, in exasperation, that he wasn't thinking of me AT ALL that I finally got it. I played no role in this. It let me completely off the hook. This was entirely on him. Sounds a bit loony that I would be happy with that...but I was. I got that the affair was a total fantasy. The woman herself wasn't even important. Just the feelings the affair created. Excitement. Sexy. Interesting. All the things he needed to feel about himself.

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  20. Lizzie, I went through much the same thing with my husband, especially in determining the timeline. He has always been terrible with time and even remembering our life together of 21 years. He simply cannot recall and always has to look to me for dates places times etc. He did know that the affair had been going on for 4 1/2 or five years based on when it started, yet he did not know when it became physical. He told me in the 4 1/2 to 5 years on the first day, DDay. I screamed yelled and cried so much saying that that couldn't be… That he changed his story, saying it started back then stopped and then started again and the fact was it never stopped in that timeframe. Eventually it came out that in fact they were in touch that whole time. I got the real story when I requested records from AT&T so that I was able to see when they were in touch, talking and texting. As for the physical end of it I still don't know exactly yet I have about a six-month time range. And I truly saw how he was trying to determine it for me. He called friends who were at some of the same events he was to figure out when they were and different things like that to determine the timeframe of the physicality of the affair. At the time I needed to know both the timeline of the affair and when it became physical because I looked at our marriage as 'nonexistent' 'tainted' 'not real' during that time line. Since then, and I am almost 6 months post D day, I do not look at our marriage as nonexistent during his affair. He loved me the whole time and everything we did in that time. Was real and everything I felt was real. My therapist helped me to realize that. my husband was supportive and present to the extent that I needed him, during that whole time. Wow! Imagine how present he would've been without the affair. So with my ongoing research and a bit of psychological background that I have professionally, I now know that a man can do that. A man, especially a man in an unhealthy state of his life, can love two women and compartmentalize those two lives. I use the word 'love' loosely… As I know that someone who is in an affair cannot even judge whether or not they love the AP. True love is when you're committed to someone, like your husband is to you. I know, it doesn't feel that way. But the truth be told, he is with you… He is not with her. Oh, one more point… Women are so much more detail oriented than men. We would know these details. A man, certainly my husband, is not aware of details. For me, it was and still is good to get the perspective of the cheater. I go to a website called affair advice.com. It was written and collated by a cheater and I find many of the articles helpful in understanding where my husband is/was coming from. Hugs to you!

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  21. Lizzie, an article that addresses this from the teacher's perspective is on the website at ferret buys.WordPress.com and the name of the article is Why Cheaters Don't Like to Discuss Affair Details. I know I read another really good article that talked about the fact that many cheaters, male cheaters that is, do not remember the details. Xoxo

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  22. Oh boy, my talk to text didn't come out so good LOL. It's not a 'teacher' it's a 'cheater'.
    So, the website is affairadvice.wordpress.com

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  23. This is my exact situation too. My husband had affairs with two different women. It was over 5.5 years and only was with them total 6 times. Both were very sporadic. He would go 6 months without hearing from anyone. The first one was two times in one year and then just texting randomly. The other one was four times in an unknown time period after the first time. He cannot tell me any timeline really. I figured out from phone records when it ended but he just has no clue. He says it was all so sporadic and really out of body. He said he thought he would be happier but it was the worst decision ever. He hated himself and despised who he became. He says he just wanted to forget it and push it away. And I think with the lack of frequency he has no bearing on time. He also stopped the affair 15 months before I found out. So for him this was something so far in his past, I don't know what to think.

    He has been amazing and really doing everything I ask and as he says "redefining" our marriage. He has really been great and working hard to make the right changes. I tell myself be happy and embrace this. But then I think how can you not tell me the most basic details/timeline? I don't want to know all the details at all. I know he told himself what he had to at the time to justify being with these women. And I equaled stress for him. Now he is sick about it and working hard and committed. But again some days and moments I think can I ever trust him and is this how I should live my life. But then we have so much to build on and there are no guarantees in any relationship.

    Thanks for everyone on here and all their comments and advice. It has helped me so much!

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  24. Anon - I think you're right to press for this. It may well be that he hasn't been entirely honest about the number of times they met, for example.

    Did he have a diary at the time - a calendar or work commitments? He needs to sit down and work out what was happening.

    If I had him sitting in front of me now I'd say: I know it's uncomfortable but you need to do this and be honest with your wife about anything you've left out NOW, while she's asking you for information. I promise you that it will be better if you come clean, even if you're scared she'll be angry. She may be angry, but it's your job to handle your anxiety and to empathise with her, to put her feelings first. In the long run it's better if she has a timeline to come to terms with. Finding something out later could be the last straw for your marriage, and then you won't have an audience for your regrets.

    It's common for betrayers to hold something back, protecting themselves from full discovery. You might give him credit for facing up to his behaviour and handing over that timeline, even if there's a new and unpleasant piece of information somewhere in there. If he can do that soon.

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  25. I have a hard time with the time frame. .. come to find out theyve know each other 10 years! Friends lunches drinks whatever (we were together then but not married yet) the affair was 4 years from what i gather at first sporadic here there months without talking not sex everytime the last 2 years more frequent and the last year multiple times per week talked daily. I have a hard time w the fact this was to some point going on long ago before anything was struggled in the relationship ... he said no sex back then friendship ... if you are out w another women and i dont know about it ... thats a problem if just friends we all should have hung out? The sexual part happened after our child was born i admit i was wrapped up in new motherhood. I look back now and am angered sad the best most happiest times of my life my H was cheating! I cant fathom why it went on for so long and got deeper when he swears the last year was all fights with OW and he got deeper by covering lying more to try and keep his secret he claims the more he wanted out the deeper he was pulled in? Truly mind boggling. He came home and finally told me. H has told me alot and still holding some details back. Big sighh so hurt i look back at my child pictures and now see time of cheating, not cheating .... 4 YEARS!! WTF long term seems so much more wounding then one time but i guess all cheating hurts the same huh. The sex hurts the emotional aspect burns like fire did he do all tge things in attempt to really leep his secreat hiding out of fear ow woukd tell due to fear or because it was more then i know? I saw her ... nothing special indeed. OW email reads love promises and future husbanda version not even ... sex fights and dependency to some extent he says ive always been what he wanted he knows shed never compare fill my shoes. I wanna believe it ... so hard.

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  26. Lizzie---Timelines and details. They killed me too at the start. My H was then an overactive drinker, and my big problem was i KEPT finding his fake name on the internet. I had enough passwords to just keep trying and eventually got into the sites he registered himself on. I saw he had signed up in the early morning hours (3-4am) in the middle of a good bender. I also saw he had NEVER Logged back in. When i presented (ha--presented--more like assaulted) him with this info on more than one occasion, and often in the middle of the night when I could not sleep, he did not remember the sites, what he said or what his intent was. I know for a fact he does not remember. After a while you can tell when they are lying. I knew he had a hotel room once for his "affair whore" but months after D-day while doing the taxes, i downloaded that hotel reservation. He had put her EFFING name on it. I was triggered, I was pissed, I was betrayed all over again. I asked him why and he came up with some lame excuse--that he put it on there in case she showed up while he was out talking a walk--I KNEW that was a bunch of bullshit. He's going to get laid so he's going to go out for a WALK? I don't think so. Eventually (within 10 minutes) he told me he had to put her name on there as a 2nd person in the room so they wouldn't think she was a whore--(LOL the best part of that is that actually -She WAS a whore). What I am saying in through the course of all of this I think it will come to you at some point and you will realize that you KNOW when he's telling the truth and when he's not. There are timmes you just can't tell because you are so so rattled, he lied about one thing so why not 20 other things?
    It takes a while to trust your gut again because you are so so so on guard for so long.
    You might want to try to come to terms with letting the actual wording of the texts go because I do not think there is a way to recover those once they have been deleted. That's a really hard one to let go of, I know. Mine had e-mails, which I had, but deleted. I wish i could go back. I am so glad I cannot go back. Yes, both are true statements. I have to accept that there are things I will never know. Melissa hit it on the head--men can compartmentalize to death. and they are not as detail oriented as women are.
    One more thing, I too asked for one thing that was awful about her--I never asked what she looked like or her age or anything, I wanted to know what was awful. I got a few things but my favorite which he sheepishly admitted--she couldn't give a blow job. Yes he risked it all for something that wasn't all that good at all. Stupid men.

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    1. Ah Steam, You always have the best way of summing things up.

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    2. Melissa affair advise world press ... liked it while im still not pasd wanting more details bank records etc i found his one blog about letting go of the details affair itself and instead focus on cause to understand and try move forward he said ... stop looking in the rearview mirror you can fix past but can decide the future..... oh how i long to be in that mind set plagued by obsessive thoughts to confirm where they went. What dates he was there instead of where he said. what exactly was it .. again he told me lots of details ... i just want to see with my own eyes which is refused ... for now maybe ever due to his shame i guess or theres more i read on here so glad they got info others not so much made worse im gonna see how it plays out ... all i can do currently day by day. I enjoyed the blog thank you!

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  27. Anon, we all need details ... some need more than others. Only you know what you feel you need. For me, I asked a multitude of questions and did my own research, and at some point I realized my need to ask and search and ask was no longer serving me or my h ... it was actually hurting us ... again, I decided that. I wanted freedom from the obsession. I chose to concentrate on that which was more productive for me .... and had nothing to do with the affair. It was moving me forward, building my sense of self. Was this easy? No. And it didn't happen over night. I would decide .... today I am not going to research or obsess or investigate until after noon. Or, I'm not going to start until 3 pm .... I set smaller timeframes daily whereby I would "allow" my self to "obsess". Some days I took a whole day off ... no researching, no asking ... it felt so damned good. Did that stop the thoughts? No, yet by concentrating/acting on something else, the obsessive thoughts certainly lessened. This worked for me. Hope this helps. Finally, remember, we control our thoughts. If you have a thought which brings you pain ... you decide ... does this pain serve me? It may, you may need to process it. If it does not serve you, if it becomes obsessive ... Choose a thought which makes you happy, or brings you peace. Keep redirecting your thought. Yes, you have the power. Hugs Dear. May peace be with you.

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    1. Wow, Melissa! Did I need to read this tonight! After "talk time" turned into a disagreement, i'm at the point where I feel like I should let some stuff go. Does it really matter EXACTLY how many times they had sex? We've come up with an approximate based on his recollection and phone records. Does it really.matter what the specific days were when it occurred? We've narrowed some down based upon phone records too. His memory sucks. He can't recite to me verbatim which words he used in conversations with her. Yet, I keep pushing. And it always ends with both of us upset and feeling like we've taken steps backward. It's especially awful after we've had so many good days. In my head tonight, I kind of decided that it ends at the end of July. But then I panic and realize that a question may come up after that date. What would I do? There have been SO many conversations. I know a lot and he's been incredibly open. Is every specific detail and word said necessary or even realistic? I know in my heart the answer is no. Maybe it's time to channel all thst energy into the positive stuff going on. Maybe if I decide I'm doing it on my own terms, it will make easier for me.
      Thanks for your post. :-)

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    2. Dandelion, since your h is so open it sounds as if you've got a lot of information. At this point I would discuss with him that you feel you have what you need ... and don't feel the need of regular "sessions" with him. Having said that, if questions come up ... write them down and know that you will talk about them later. No doubt this will be a relief for both of you. And ... by writing them down and waiting a bit to discuss ... you may even decide you don't need to know that. For me, some questions I asked I wish I had not, like, did you ever have sex outside? ... my h and I did that a lot early on in our relationship. His answer, "not really outside, but once in her Jeep." Well, you guessed it ... now everytime I see a Jeep..... Later I was going to ask him ... "Did you ever shower together" and I decided. "What the hell do I want to know that for?" So I can obsess about it everytime he, I or we take a shower? Nope. I didn't want to know that answer. Peace & light :)

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  28. What a great suggestion. I am almost 2 years out & still have use for ur technique on bad days when I am triggered.

    Thank u.

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  29. Ill have to try that i have been imagining a stop sign at times other times to tired to fight it ... obessing ot is. I pray this lessens with time. It feels consuming i worry when the summer fades and winter sets in it will be worse ... i know a day at a time ... hour by hour even on some days 10 wks out very raw!

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    1. Anon, 10 weeks?!? You are doing amazing. And when summer fades you will being doing so much better. I am not certain ... someone here has a husband who won't let them into their records or give much information... I am no expert, but for me and most women being able to ask questions, investigate and get answers is essential in order to begin healing. If he is fearful, take baby steps, but he has to share with you. Once you are able to know, the obsessing is less and less. He and you both need to feel safe ... I hope you are in counseling... perhaps that would be a safe setting to get some of your answers.
      Love & light.

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  30. WELL ... GULP ... not sure this is Dday 2 or trickle truth i walked up to find him txt the ow! Big wtf apparently they didnt talk for 2mo and have beeb in contact for past 2 wks Really! It all came out .. i saw bank statments learned how they met and wait for it ... the 2 yrs continous 4 years on off is actually 10 years.on off past two form . Mini trip, money for ow bills gallons of alcohol. records showed what he said but alot more $ ... the txt and met twice in past two weeks at restaurant to talk supposedly no sex. Im furious about contact and lying again... advised him to not waste away a giving second chance. He said he knows he wants me our family but he feels guilt in taking care of ow and wants to know she's ok he did say ow said they r soulmates and refuses no contact i told him my opinion since she asked and got money when they met shes full of shit. Theyve been friends w benefits my entire marriage and tgen some!

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  31. Part 2 sure im rambling and leaving lots out. I told him its all in or its out i wont share him. He said he doesn't want us fighting me and ow, u assured him why would i have to fight for what is mine? Shes willinging but H is the one that much get control! Bo contact tell her hes working on marriage? If hes confused then say it and dont drat me along! The obsessing may get better that i know all but the knufe is in my heart of hurt and the air around me seems eerily still silent. No sleep or eat again sighhh

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  32. Im fighting off anxiety and just trying to maintain. He end up leaving for a bit his shame and anxiety is thu roof. He agrees it feels ok talking but still not safe he is drowning in sea of guilt for both me and ow ... like he fucked her life up. What she knew u were married! I did txt her back on his ph .. ahoukdnt have saying she cant taje care of herself let alibe a family never fill my shoes i told her i saw her pics videos and advised if she investes half time in herself and kid as fucking married men shes be happier i also said she is second fiddle .. holiday orphan and prob a whole bunch else i can't recall ... wrong maybe. .. but ih well ...his ph dies v4 i could see aby response. He feeks sq obe said we were doing better and bow this xause he lying!

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    1. Anonymous,
      This is nonsense. He can't control whether or not he feels "guilty" about abandoning her but he can control his actions. And if you have said No Contact (which sounds like you have and which is NON-NEGOTIABLE), then he's either in the marriage or he's out. His loyalty needs to be to you and the hell he's created for you. Just because you're not a total train wreck like she is doesn't mean he should be taking care of her feelings over yours.
      You're right. She chose this when she chose to get involved with a married man. You have had NO choice in this.
      So...stick to your boundaries: He's in. Or he's out. If he's in, that means total access to his phone/computer/etc. If he screws up, you need to know what the consequences are: immediate separation, sleep on couch -- but it has to be a consequence that you will follow through this so don't bluff. He's still deep in the fog of his affair, believing himself to be some white knight to this messed up woman.
      I'm so sorry you're going through this. But please know, whatever HE does, YOU are going to come out of this okay.

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    2. I would also see a lawyer, given how long this has gone on and the money that's been spent. Make sure that your assets are secure. It can also give you the confidence to know that you're ready to leave should he continue his idiocy.

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  33. More latee im exhausted

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  34. Anon, so very hard. My heart goes out to you. Your husband is a mess and you don't deserve this crap. He needs to make a decision and stick to it. My h was similar in not wanting to hurt the OW and wanting closure with her ... whatever .... and now, commit, or the marriage is over. If their brains weren't mush they would realize that continuing contact and saying you are working on your marriage serves no one and hurts all parties involved. The good part, if there is one, is now you know the timeline, the money spent ... you can move in the direction that best serves you. And by the way, I am so angry at your husband ... it's like my 90 year old friend said to me when I told her my h was cheating on me. She says, "What is he? Stupid?!" Yah, pretty much. Elle, said it best to me when I was going through much what you are ... She said, "he better get his head out of his ass before he loses you." Love it. Hugs to you Dear. You will survive and thrive. Yes, you will.

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  35. Anonymous,
    I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I can only offer my personal experience and I know there are quite a few here who are much further along than me. We had D-Day #1 in December 2014 and I was told it was an emotional affair. In February of this year I walked in to find my husband on FB messenger with her. She had contacted him and he responded. I lost it, called her and told her to be respectful of my marriage. He confronted her two days later and told her never to talk to him again. But then within a week, he resumed the affair. In April, I saw FB messages from her popping up on his iPad. That's the night the full truth came out.
    I gave him an ultimatum that night. I said he had 24 hours to make a decision, me or her. We had our first joint counseling session the next day and he texted her saying it was over.
    I've gone over and over in my head what the hell he was thinking when he chose to resume it. It makes absolutely no sense to me. He has said it took that night in April to
    really have the reality of it hit him. There was no question that night that he was going to lose me. I think so many of these guys are so wrapped up in the affair fantasy, even though sometimes it's begun to be more problematic than fun, that they have a hard time fully extricating themselves. My husband has used the words "habit" and "addiction" to describe it.
    It's sad and we betrayed don't understand why they are willing to risk it all for something that in most instances isn't all that great.
    I think he has to make a clean break, no contact. It sounds like you got the information you've been asking for in terms of bank statements, timeline, etc.. Maybe this is the final wake up call your husband needed. I hope that's the case.
    In the meantime, take care of yourself as best you can.

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  36. Correction he didnt leave but said he was naybe needing time to work on him. We shall see how it goes most all $ was past year for sure maybe 2 years tops prior dinners a drivable getsway wkend and a littke spare cash. All still wrong 2014/early 2o15 is when i see him as cash cow i thought this was important to clarify i see i scrambled above. $1.00 or thounsands all wrong! We shall see another long night ahead. Husband says he may need ti talk more learn to talk w me. I said good bad me him her im open to talk about all and will try n9t 5o jump in or use his honesty against him ... when i found he did thibgs for ow kid i was enraged shot off and realized this is not productive. Thanks ladies .... tough so very tough.

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  37. 1 to 7 years a few times a year sex or just meeting. Then coyple years just talk ahe had kid w another w5c. Last 4 years continual. Last 2 frequent with the last year full blown $$$ i realized i totally nay gave confused earlier sorry multiple post

    I hope he does het his head out of ass and told him so!

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    1. Anonymous,
      I'm so sorry for all you're going through. Those early days when you're head is spinning and it all seems so crazy and hard to keep track of. They're horrible. The best you can do right now is take good care of yourself. Try and sleep. Eat as well as you can. Avoid alcohol and any other substances that mess with your head.
      You'll get through this. It's hard...but there are many many women on this site who've been where you are.

      Delete
  38. I feel lot like the first few days of discovery ... cant sleep exhausted the night is eexcurusatingly long in so tired yet i cant close my eyes or relax enough to sleep i do lay in bed all night sighhhhh i think it was 7 to 9 days this went on last and then we took a vacation where finally a night of sleep far away from IT! Eating bcuz i should but having a pit in my stomach like a cement block. Deep brearhs chest heavy. On an up note if i can find one and i won't really know till at work when worse i may feel some lessened obsessing since now i feel i know 75% or more even and while mind movies play and confirmed whereabouts are now REAL thoughts to be processed and not obsessive assumed unknows im hurting aching and walking around like a zombie on edge again ... we talked more he knows he wants to b here and is so boggled why his impulse guilt whatever lead him to contact ow give in again he said his emotions run rampage and if ge thinks about it ... besides long tineframe he has no real benefit of the affair but giving giving giving and sex when he processes he may have been used he is angry like fire says he is so warped into believing ow bullshit spell power of being needy he just doesnt get it. I love him and am trying to not let this shitstorm get the best of me. I told him u control your actions you control asking 4 my help if u dont feel strong and ultimately he has control to make ir break this marriage. I cant do it by myself ... time fucking time again ... min by min hr by hr. .. we shall see. Xo overwhelmed!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Overwhelmed,
      Please know that everything you describe is what we've all gone through. And when you're going through it, you can't imagine life feeling "normal" again. But it will. The shitstorm will settle down. Stay firm in your own boundaries. Let him manage his own recovery within the boundaries you've set.
      Minute by minute will become hour by hour will become day by day and so on.

      Delete
  39. Get this the ow got a tattoo of his name cause they r soulmates???? I would never consider that without a ring and even then ..... wtf. Mulpitative. .. mindfuck. .. desparate or really in love .... idk ill never understand alot of it and sm trying feverishly to digest what i can .... numb ....

    Overwhelmed xo

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow. I'd hate to have a body full of ink that reminds me of all my mistakes. Why didn't she just stick with a damn butterfly.

      Delete
  40. If nothing else i know i cant control his action nor can i motherhen him to death he talked of changing numbers stopping data on phone leaving it in house when not working aporeciate thoughts but i feel like in todays technology society does all that matter ... leave it ... learn to control it ... bcuz fact of matter theres a million and ones ways to contact someone or them u ... if u really wanna and ow seems nothing short of driving to his work even when he refuses calls... which i understand she has in prior times? So really in end it comes done to him being no gaining control standing ground ... i dont think us 3 sit down would help .. thought about it but what good is that she only out for her its really my H thats gotta enforce things. I previously sent cease desist letter h signed too his idea around dday whwn ow was emailing me spurring detaiks of affair telling me neet her for more not sure now that was for my interest or to shut her up in any case his cobtact w her prob beesks that i dont know trying to remain positive and just function! Thx for listening i have noone to talk to besides him .. walking over coals of fire again and i told him hes just startes withdrawl from her over again since 2 mo of no contact he pondering maybe they coukd b friends. Ah no ... affair fog? No contact! Not sure ow really does love him actions seems shes using him or more importantly wants the total package my life ... thinking it will solve her effed up life. I told my H is needy looks attractive go for it hope u like taking care of her forever ... vs having a partnership give take ...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Absolutely no contact. "Just friends" is not an option.
      As for leaving technology...I don't think that's a bad idea in the short term. If he doesn't trust himself to control his own impulses, maybe he should avoid the temptation until he feels stronger. Not unlike an alcoholic steering clear of booze until they know they can resist it.

      Delete
  41. Last night we hit rock bottom he told me everything from the front to the back when / records again timelines worse than D Day this weekend was but I think he's finally got it or trying to process it that he is so much more to lose than to gain although they've known each other 10 years it was only a couple times a year up until the last 2 years with the last year being where it became so emotional dependency financials just in the last year I write on this blog the honesty moving mountains and although we both are hurting and he's at the lowest point of being shameful I thanked him from releasing me of my obsessing from what it really was and through this hurt I may even feel a little later today not sure still numb it was said on here that sometimes you have to hit rock bottom to really rebuild he knows his family is worth it and he knows I need to see action so now we see where time goes thank all you ladies for listening and any insight opinions good or bad you have to offer

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Rock bottom can be good because there's really nowhere to go but up.
      And yes, it can be heart wrenching to hear all the details but liberating too to finally have a clear picture of what was going on.
      We're always here to listen to whomever needs it. It's crucial to have a place to lay it all out without judgement. We've been where you are. And we can remind you that you won't be there forever.

      Delete
  42. He admitted he has alot of of work to do on him and me us ..

    ReplyDelete
  43. I know we r not in clear lots of hurt pain and hardwork to get through but 100 honesty is a start and hopfully his guilt for the ow wont get best of him instead we will become stronger to overshadow all else still wounded but less obsessing. .. need sleep.

    ReplyDelete
  44. My H is guilt stricken shameful as he should be. Hes shared w me compulsiveness and sekf esteem issues i never knew he was dealing with ... i know he has to help himself. ..though i wonder how to help him feeling alone may be alot not all that caused this mess. Im fearful to it wont stop or happen again ... but i know there are no guarantees really all u can di is,work on your grass let dust settle see where your lead. .. sorry so much in my mind. Ill try writing to myself to not take up my welcome and space on this blog ...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There's more than enough space on this blog for all of us so please don't hesitate to share your thoughts here. That's why this exists.
      You're right -- there are no guarantees but we can do our part to create a marriage in which each partner feels safe enough to share their own demons so they don't end up controlling us.

      Delete
  45. Thx Elle ... if i was at rock bottem today im sinking below sea level. Nervous breakdown. .. possible my hurt and trying to resume calm compassion is starting to turn in angry fire. This wkend i thought he spilled it all ... strides forward i feel lighter even slept a little BOOM!!! He left out when he saw her a week ago they had sex thus my current infection!!! Also he some how has something she left and is txt threathing for it back which he told me last night ... 1000 fucking steps back she is now txt for items back where i now find thete are items of ours at her place. ... see the tiniest detail left unspoken. .. shitstorm. I advised as long as there are secrets there will be issues. He is trying to set up time to swap items im hesitate to let him go alone. He is super pissed at himself as he feels he just had some type of ah ha moment walked me thru affair with exception of last few weeks which is now biting him in his ass. Chinese proverb dont do things you dont want others to find out .... fucker. Im to hurt to even cry. He may leave after this to clear his head westher its w family. Her. What control do i have. I feel spinning and am trying to keep a grip. We dud argue felt he was being punishment for telling me truth ... i tried to smooth over move focus to us but he needs to stop this bullshit and join me 100% im an beside myself really. He said he was confused but now clear after we spoke ... hes being used by ow. Putting my health at risk not ok. Continued lies not ok. He said he didnt think shed call fir item and was gonna forget about stuff sge had like cut loses vs contact her. Next week makes 3 mo ... up down up down just fucking tell the truth. He says now damn if i do damn if i dont. I want him my family etc ... trying hard ... if i dont go to crazy house before then.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He's giving you a hard time because he told you the truth and is being punished?? But he DIDN'T tell you the truth. Leaving out that he slept with her a week ago is NOT telling the truth.
      As for items that need swapping, that's insane. Tell him to put her shit in a shopping bag and leave it a street corner at a certain time. He should NOT be seeing her. Not at all. NO CONTACT. End of story.
      I'm sorry you're feeling like this but I'm not surprised. All this drip, drip, drip of info and details etc. is like torture. Just when we think the worst is over, BAM. There's more.
      What support do you have? Are you in therapy? Do you have somewhere you can go to just cry and sleep and have somebody take care of you? Can you do that for yourself? You do not deserve any of this. You deserve kindness and compassion.

      Delete
    2. She got alot of our expense items ... noone knows im not in therapy. ..i work full time and have a young child at home. I cry in shower. On deck at night. On way to work. I using previous therapy techniques i used when i was in long ago. The days are long the nights longer. His attitude im sure is because although i always had voice .... i let lots slide i am starting to tighten everything almost demand since ive been patiently waiting asking him for almost 12 weeks now im like stop dragging out ... get control of yourself. Own it help me. Sunday he started giving me some pasdwords talks about merging money and talking helping him me etc then more bs kast night ripped my newly applied bandaid right off my heart. We felt light connected then boom more bullshit. Maybe this is what rock bottem is. He might leave to clear his head? I think thats bs u created this mess u need to stay clean it up and im do willinging but with each new lie ... more hurt questions erupt. Im hanging on for deal life . I know i cant control him. Only me ... go away whats that gonna do .... i think it running away honestly. Im just trying to remain in control of myself.

      Delete
  46. Btw im not like get them back. But if hes goung there to givd her shit then i guess he should. I wanted to go wsit in car. Or leave it all though it much more then i thought. Its all games .... i appreciate his honesty but am getting feed up with more lies yes i kniw tons now ... but saying all in and then theres more slap in face ... burns hotter with each new detail. Im drowning truly not even sure how im functioning if u can call it that ...

    ReplyDelete
  47. Sunday seemed like he was turning leaf starting to do right then this ....

    ReplyDelete
  48. H said let her keep the shit vs drama. I cant say im not yirked by this but trying not to obsess and let it go. Respect his take to like i ask him to do for me. He said he needs to work on himself and us. Rollercoaster

    ReplyDelete

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