Feeling Stuck: Part 13 (FULL. Please post in part 14).

203 comments:

  1. HELP, PLS--ANOTHER ANGLE: So after about 5 weeks of struggling, my h and I have reached a plateau. Last night, as I was walking around the house, this thought occurred to me: I do not like him. I love him. I'm even empathic but I do not like him. This latest episode has disgusted me.
    There's also this truth: If I were to share what I know with one of the ow's husbands, my h's friendship with him would end. My h needs that friendship.
    Isolation and depression would descend on him and our household. My h is 74. The other husband is 83. The end is in sight so part of me thinks what's the point. Why don't I just let go?
    Should I have left two years ago, when I first discovered all of this? Have I wasted my time? Do I want to divorce?
    Round and round I go. Last week, as we were cleaning our basement, we found a box from a high end jewelry store. I cannot remember getting anything from that store, but we've lived in this house since 1999 so maybe I forgot. When I looked at it and said I wondered what had been in it he seemed to take cover from what he figured was going to be another explosion. Weird. Rather than letting this go, I've taken the box upstairs and kept it next to my jewelry box in an attempt to jog my memory but also--and this is where I know I'm wrong b/c I'm being passive-aggressive--to make him think I'm watching and wondering.
    I'm in a vicious cycle, a self-destructive ugly cycle, one that I'm working to get out of, one I needed to share in the hope that writing this will free me.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I get the idea that your husband has cheated with the wife of one (or more?) of his friends? Just because he is in his mid seventies, why would that age factor have anything to do with how you should respond to this? His friend is in his eighties...is he ill and near death? Are you saying that you are considering sacrificing your own peace of mind in order to keep your husband emotionally stable after what he has done? Has he done everything possible to assure YOU that you do not have to live looking over your shoulder in the future?

    Your time belongs to YOU to "waste" if that is what you want to do. Personally, I would not want to be writing in here at an even older age than I already am dealing with the same scenario that you are experiencing now. Because...heaven forbid, how do you know that when his friend finally dies, that you are not going to get kicked to the curb so that your husband can then go after his friend's widow?? Is this a real possibility? Did you get a complete confession (unprompted by you) with genuine remorse...AND did your husband cut off ALL contact with the OW? You can be assured that your life going forward will be nothing better than a waiting game to see who kicks the bucket first if you do not find a way to deal with this to YOUR satisfaction. Is that what you want?

    Personally, I chose to live alone rather than trying to keep babysitting the morality of a man who I will never trust...and I chose not to wait any longer (after watching him sneak around for 10 years) just to find myself being kicked to the curb when he decides to move his own life forward in favor of someone else...especially at my age. Nope.

    You do not HAVE to get a divorce...but what assurances do you have that your husband will not resume his relationship with his friends widow...you know, now that she is a "new distraught widow", she "needs" this and that and your husband needs to go to the rescue, ect....are you happy waiting to see how that might unfold over the years?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you so much, Sweetz. You make several really good points worth considering.
      He had so-called emotional affairs with four women but only one of them involved mutual friends of ours, a couple we saw regularly as a foursome.
      I don't think I'm fooling myself when I say I don't think he would be so stupid as to try taking up with her again--or to seriously take up with any of them or anybody else again. He stopped communicating with her over a year ago. I still read his messages and texts and check phone records once in a while so I know this to be true. (I hate that I still do this but I do.) He sees the husband from time to time.

      The real issue for me is this totally insane urge I have to tell the husband what was really going on by sending him copies of the messages between them, to clear my name, to make plain what actually happened. (I just cannot bring myself to delete them.)
      Doing that would be disastrous for all of us, including me.
      I'm dealing with this in therapy, trying to look within myself. Why am I going down this dark rabbit hole again? How am I using it to keep myself from the difficult project I'm trying to complete? Were I more secure within myself would I care?
      Sincere thanks for your comments, especially concerning age.

      Delete
    2. Lynn
      You are the only one that can decide if you want to continue trying to clear your name with your h male friend. You will not feel any better if you do send the message to him. If you and your h are committed to your marriage then this is the area your focus needs to be on, I personally don't understand your h need to remain friends with any of the folks if it continues to bring you pain. I'm with you on the age page! I'm almost 60 and I have 37 years invested in my marriage and if my h hadn't made all the changes in himself, I would be living by myself. Our lives are not perfect but they never had been perfect but we were happy and most days are happy again! I still get triggers when I least expect it but I'm learning to deal with them. Hugs for your continued stress!

      Delete
    3. Lynn, this is something that I have thought of too. My husband had an affair with a co-worker. While I never knew her or her husband, I chose not to contact her husband and tell him. Initially, it was out of fear of his reaction (what he might potentially do and how it would impact my family) and of creating issues in my husband's workplace as she was still employed there at the time. And then there were also the thoughts of her three children who I didn't want to hurt the way mine have in the wake of my husband's infidelity. My kids are young enough that they do not know the full story but they know we had some issues. I also felt at the time that the drive to tell him was not out of compassion for him but out of my own desire to hurt the OW and ruin her life as I felt she had ruined mine. As time has gone by, I've started to feel badly for her husband on a more personal level. I don't know if he knows or doesn't know. It's been over 9 months since we've had any contact with her and 5 months since she quit working there and moved several hours away. There is a part of me that feels hypocritical as I would have wanted someone to tell me if they had known my husband was cheating. And some days I feel like a liar and that I am condoning her behavior by not telling him. I believe he deserves to know, but I'm not willing to take the risk of tracking him down to tell him. I have visions of him snapping and showing up on my doorstep and I cannot take chances with my kids' well-being. With that said, I would absolutely be 100% honest with him if he contacted me. My feelings regarding this are something I have to process.
      I believe deep down I still carry a desire to hurt her. However, I have read enough and been to enough therapy to know that attempting to shame her will do no good and it won't undo what's been done. Yes, she did things that were very hurtful to me, but will hurting her now make a difference? Could I even hurt her in the way I've been hurt? I tell myself she's not worth it and I have nothing to gain from trying to destroy her world. Where does this feeling come from? Is it simply from being hurt or is it a deeper feeling of inadequacy? I started reading Rising Strong by Brene Brown and she talks about something along these lines early in the book which I know I will not do justice if I attempt to paraphrase. But, I remember reading it and thinking, "Wow." It tied in with vulnerability and the feelings you have to let go of to live wholeheartedly. I need to go back to that book.
      I know our situations are different as you know the other couple. You have a history with them and if I recall correctly have experienced situations where you were made to look like you were overreacting. I can understand why you want the real story to be heard. I certainly don't advocate not telling the other spouse because I carry that burden. I guess I would just encourage you to consider what is driving it and what it will accomplish. From an outside perspective, I don't see your thought process as being vengeful, but more as trying to find or expose the truth of the situation.
      Once again, I've rambled. Hopefully somewhere in there, I've said something that makes sense or at least let you know you are not alone. Hugs!

      Delete
    4. Okay Lynn...
      I'd recommend leaving the old man alone at his stage of life...it is a kindness that you will not regret. Why? Because it is simply the need for vindication...but that old man is just as much a victim as you were. Kindness would be to leave him alone, because the REAL issue is YOUR HUSBAND.

      This is not about "being more secure within yourself"...this is about being more secure about YOUR HUSBAND...husband's who do these things always seem to have power to tear down our security don't they? The old man did nothing to you except believe his buddy and wife over "other possibilities"...his mind probably cannot fathom any other reasoning. If your husband did take up with this woman after he died... (or ANY future woman regardless of if you knew her previously), then you would know that the primary issue is not YOU...but your husband's character. Those roots go DEEP. Nothing you do will change this...get your ducks in a row and prepare for this...hopefully, it wont happen.

      So I would ask you to let the old man alone. That is called "Mercy". Give him mercy regardless of the narrative he has been fed against you...because it was NOT HIM that spun this ugly web...let him die in peace...when he gets to "the other side" he will be CLEAR about the truth...you already are. I hope this helps YOU.

      Delete
    5. Lynn,
      I think the wonderful BWC warriors have given you really good advice here. I think the real issue isn't so much with your actions -- whether you do/do not tell the other man -- but with your sense of responsibility for the emotional/physical health of those around you. You did NOT create this situation. You are a victim of your husband's choices. So please stop believing yourself to be somehow culpable in what happens to your husband and his friendship with this guy should he find out the truth.
      The other big issue, I think, is that there's clearly still an issue with communication with your husband. When you found that jewellery box and saw your husband's reaction, why didn't you ask him to tell you exactly what he knows about that jewellery box? Were you afraid of the answer? Do you anticipate more lies? Where are you in your recovery from this? If your husband can't be trusted to respond honestly to your questions, then I think it makes complete sense to re-evaluate your marriage and whether you want to be in it? What, exactly, do you get out of it? Your responsibility is for yourself -- to create a life that gives you pleasure and meaning. Your husband's responsibility is for himself -- to similarly construct a life of joy and meaning. But your responsibility when married is also TO each other. To treat each other with honesty and respect. Without that, what do you have?
      You get to decide, Lynn. He created this situation. You're simply finding the best response to it for yourself.

      Delete
    6. Dear, dear Theresa, Dandelion, Sweetz, and Elle, Thank you all for your analysis and comments.
      I thought the best way to resolve the pain I've been feeling would be writing the OW and suggesting that she meet with me, as we did when all of this first happened. I'd planned to ask her to apologize and take responsibility for what she and my h had done and to tell her h the truth.
      I thought it would be better to do that than to contact her husband directly. I'd planned to tell her that if she didn't do that I'd contact him myself, with the documents that reveal just what my h and his w had been up to.
      Writing that letter freed me from the need to send it. I've actually forgotten how powerful that process can be.
      Meantime, things are good here with my husband. He is making every effort to be the partner I/we need and to create the authenticity that was lacking for so long. He has announced that he is willing to do whatever it takes, a commitment he made a little over a year ago.
      Of course, then he stumbled during the holidays and took us back a few steps but I believe his commitment is real. Change is hard.
      I'm learning a lot about myself and the way I've gotten lost in other people's issues, my children's needs, my aging mother's needs . . . the classic narrative that operates for so many women, especially women my age.
      I'm trying my best to come face to face with myself and to create the life I want, both within my marriage and in the world outside.
      Your thoughtful, compassionate comments have helped me more than you know.
      P.S. Love Brene Brown. Thanks for reminding me about how helpful her TED talks and writing can be.

      Delete
  3. I've has enough of thinking, roller coaster emotions it's just too much to handle. I want answers that he can't give and I know I won't move on till I get them. Basically I want this stupid bitches number who he went to dinner with. He says he's deleted doesn't have it, I say get it I want to hear her side of the story. The daft cow has ultimately turned my world upside down along with my h so why the hell should she walk away Scott free. I need this number otherwise I've asked him to leave. Am I being rational ladies? I ffffing hate him and her right now. Don't want him near me

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. SamA
      I'm not sure I could believe my h if I found out he was having dinner with another woman if he said just an old friend! Given how easily my h went for a new female friend I think I would go ballistic if I found out he chose to have a nice dinner out especially an old friend that didn't include my knowledge! I don't know if your feelings are rational but to me they are very understandable! Why the need for secrecy and why not include you to meet such a friend? My h realized early on that I would no longer tolerate plans of any kind with out discussion with me first. Common curtesy in my opinion and that includes friends or business plans. Maybe you need to speak to her to validate your h side of the story. Not sure if that would make you feel better. I'm sorry for you latest pain!

      Delete
    2. Sam A,
      Ask yourself what you really need from your husband. I suspect calling this OW wouldn't do much more than give you a big dose of crazy. A lot of these women take perverse pleasure in making the affair sound like so much more than it was. They're hurt so they enjoy making us hurt.
      What is it you really need from him? Proof that he's putting your needs first and not protecting her? Proof that he's not hiding anything? A clear commitment to do whatever it takes to rebuild your marriage? Or just a focus for your rage?
      Your real anger, of course, is with your husband for putting you in this situation. But sometimes it feels safer to direct our rage toward the OW.
      See if you can get clear on what this is really about and then figure out how to proceed. Are you really prepared to walk away if he doesn't produce her number? If not, you've lost your leverage. It's absolutely okay to create boundaries but they should be in the service of keeping you safe and helping re-establish trust. Creating an ultimatum so he can prove something often doesn't serve anyone.
      Your anger is justified. He's put you in a horrible position. I'm just not sure your approach is going to get you what you want.

      Delete
  4. Thanks Elle I hate being so angry and unkind to him only person it hurts is me. Your right I wouldn't walk away if he didn't give me the number, point is I prob wouldn't even call it's just the fact that if he made it available I would then know he's nothing to hide.
    Wish I never found out any of this, ignorance is bless alright. Unnecessary pain none of is need or deserve
    Sorry for my negativity it serves me no purpose.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sam A,
      The LAST place you need to apologize for being angry is here. We get it!! We're with you!!! But you're right. It does only hurt you and doesn't get you where you want to go. Sad truth is, there's no way to make this fair. No matter how horrible you are to him, you still got the raw end of this with his cheating.
      So...what do you do? You figure out what you want out of this. You want a husband who fully acknowledges the pain he's caused, feels genuine remorse for having caused it, and devotes himself to ensuring he never hurts you like that again. But...you can't control him. You can only control you. So...what do you do? You figure out what you need to move forward. What are your boundaries around this? What are the consequences should he violate those boundaries? What do you need him to do to help you heal? What do YOU need to do heal yourself? And then you set to create that in your life. For instance, you need him to prove to you that he's truly done with her. Can you sit down and develop a strategy should she ever contact him? Can you figure out how to respond should you ever run into her? It's incredible what a difference in makes in your relationship when you feel as if you and your husband are on the same "team" in terms of healing. When it's no longer you versus him and instead both of you fighting for your marriage. It's tough to get there. After all, he feels like the enemy. But that's where you figure out whether he truly is the enemy -- in which case run don't walk to a divorce lawyer -- or if your directing your pain at him. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it. A public execution sometimes seems too good for these guys. I'm just saying it doesn't really solve anything.
      Sam A., hang in there. You'll get there. Make sure you have support for when you need to vent so that you get it out without hurting yourself or what you're hoping to achieve. And take it easy on yourself. Show compassion for yourself.

      Delete
  5. I've written a reply three times and lost it aaarrrrrrgggghhhhh

    ReplyDelete
  6. Ok...I really need advice. Actually, I just want someone to tell me what to do!

    Background : my husband has had six sexual affairs. I uncovered one last year and he kept pretending it was over but then I'd find evidence it wasn't...this went on for five months. Then, I found a "secret" phone with another woman on that.

    I pushed my husband for answers, promising not to lose my shit like I did with the first woman. Turns out he has had six affairs. He had sex with each of them once, and realised he was making a mistake and ended it...usually by just not replying to messages or pretending he had moved.

    The affairs span 12 years, averaging out one every two years. Before I found the second woman, he had decided himself to make changes...and I had noticed. I think it is only this that stopped me kicking him out then and there.

    Our lives are complicated. We have four children. We live on a small scale farm, and we run a business together.

    I am floored. I knew some of the stuff that had gone on, but not all of it. I found out two weeks before Christmas and I am just numb...although that is starting to wear off.

    My sister is begging me to leave him. She says he will never change, and I am setting myself up for a miserable future. Perhaps she is right. Every fibre of my being is telling me to run. Twice I have sat in my car and thought of running away, but my babies (who don't know anything except I'm a bit sad and stressed - put down to business stuff by me) they keep me here.

    My husband and I have had one counselling session. It was good, but I needed so much more.

    I want someone to just tell me what to do (someone outside of my family who all have an emotional biased)

    I thought we were good. My husband assures me we were, that he is "a dick" and that is all it was. He never planned to leave me for anyone, some didn't even know he was married.

    I feel sick. I cannot have sex with him. I did initially in the hysterical phase but now I'm past that...

    I'm scared of how empty I feel. I don't trust him at all. I don't see how I can have a fulfilling future with a man who has done this so many times.

    I am trying to take it a day at a time, but it's frustrating, and I'm scared the calendar will tick by and a year on I will still be sitting here wondering what the hell to do.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Piper,
      I have been in your shoes -- or your car -- wanting to just go as far as a tank of gas would take me. And then farther.
      It can be hard to hear your own voice over the voices of others. Your sister might be right. Or she might be wrong. Thing is, she gets to make decisions for her life and you get to make yours. She's speaking, of course, out of love for you but also out of fear. She's terrified this will happen to you again. Chances are you're terrified too.
      Your husband clearly has problems. Nobody cheats so often for so long without having some demons to battle. Question is, is he willing to really get to the root of his behaviour. Maybe he's just a "dick". Well, let's be honest, of course he's a dick. Look what he did. But if that's it -- if he's just a dick who thought he'd screw around because he could get away with it, then show him the door. Buh-bye. You'll hear from my lawyer. But if he's genuinely disgusted with himself, if he's genuinely willing to really try and understand why he's such a dick and do everything he can to NOT be that person, then he might be worth giving a second chance. There are no guarantees. In my case, I stayed mostly because I had three kids and wanted to be sure, if I left, that I was well and truly done. I didn't want a yo-yo relationship with them caught in it. And I, frankly, didn't have the strength to leave at first. By the time I did have the strength and clarity of mind to leave, I no longer wanted to. I'd watched my husband do everything in his power -- LOTS of therapy -- to figure out what the hell he was doing and why. I'd seen him transform himself into someone who was worth keeping.
      I have no idea re. your husband. But you probably do. Maybe not right now but try and find some space and some stillness to figure it out. Is he a good guy who's made some really horrible choices for reasons that he's willing to uncover? Or is he an asshat who's best-before date is long gone?

      Delete
    2. Thankyou Elle. I think he is scared of uncovering that he is really just an asshole.

      What kills me is how many times (three) I caught him out with the first woman, and despite seeing how devastated I was he repeatedly chose her, albeit behind my back whilst telling me I was being crazy for thinking he was still messaging her (he was!). I'm finding this unforgivable...that he let me think I was losing my mind when in fact my gut was telling the truth.

      But. He has stopped drinking. He has made considerable effort to alter his behaviour in many ways, but he is still so focused on work and it takes a priority. This is through necessity as we have some big bills to pay just now.

      I'm hoping to find the quiet space this weekend as the kids are away. I did tell him this morning that I thought we would both be better if we split up. He didn't respond.

      I do love him. He is, in many ways, a good man. But I don't know if at 38 years of age he can change a pattern that has been prevelant in 12 of the 17 years we've been married

      Delete
    3. Piper,
      Your husband has to value you and your marriage more than he values his role in paying bills or being the provider or whatever. I hope he figures this out before he loses everything that actually matters in his life. Some guys do, but some don't.
      I'd be careful about making statements about being better off apart (I know! It's hard!!) unless you're really opening the door to a separation. Too often it's used by us as a way of trying to "wake them up" but often works in the opposite way, making them think that we're already out the door, in our minds anyway.
      It sounds as if communication is a big struggle for both of you -- you for stating exactly what you need from him and him in talking about what he wants. Drinking has likely been his escape in the past. Affairs function in much the same way -- distracting or numbing from uncomfortable feelings or fears or anxieties.
      My husband cheated on me our entire relationship. His sex addiction pre-dated even meeting me. So it's possible for a long-time leopard to change his spots. But, again, he has to want to change. He has to believe that the pain of change is greater than the change of staying where he is.

      Delete
  7. I wanted to add this to page 12, but it's full- I need to say thank you to Melissa and Lili. Your comments helped me so much. Melissa, I really value your perspective about how having an affair makes the wayward spouse so nervous all the time. That really helped me. And Lili- I'm sure that's what was driving me- reassurance that I am important. Once I feel that reassurance, I'm better able to handle my emotions and I feel better. I'm still not out of the dumps and I continue to discuss this with my C, but your comments really made a difference to me. Thanks!
    C

    ReplyDelete
  8. The OW debate seems to be showing up more and more on here, so I wanted to share a few things from my story.

    In therapy, my H and I had some brutally frank conversations. It took a while to get him to open up, but when he did, it all came out. One of the “reasons” behind his A was our crumpling marriage. I couldn’t deny that. We were two people who co-existed in the same house with little connection at all. Days would go by without him having much to say and I just nagged and nagged like usual. It doesn’t excuse his actions, but it’s the honest truth of what we were. I learned that my nagging was actually an attempt to get him to pay attention to me. Even bad attention was attention, and I was yearning for that. I would constantly yell at him to give me an opinion on something, but then I would just override anything he said and make the decision on my own anyways. He felt that I didn’t value him, his opinion or his input on anything, so why would he bother to give it any more. One day in therapy, I was raging about the OW, how she seduced him and my husband cracked. He actually said to me “I did this to you! I DID! You think I’m so weak and feeble minded that I’m just nothing, that I could be so blindly tricked into doing this awful thing, that I wasn’t even capable of making this f&@king decision either?!” It really was a breakthrough for me when I realized how little I have made this man feel he was that he was grasping to even be acknowledged for doing something this awful. This was a decision that he made that I couldn’t override on him. I guess the whole bad attention is still attention thing was at play on his part as well.

    The other thing that stuck with me was him laughing about the OW seducing him. He told me how the OW had so many insecurities that she’d probably take it as a compliment if someone thought so much of her to have this hypnotic power over men. And, that’s when I stopped giving her that power in my mind. She has nothing on me.

    I do believe many A’s start with two lonely people looking for something that is missing in their life. It’s not right, it’s so wrong and hurtful, but I do think it boils down to that in many cases. The majority of happy men do not cheat. The majority of happy women do not cheat. As much as it still hurts me, he found something in her even if it was just temporarily. And, I blame him for that, just like he asked me to. He was right, he did this to me. I have forgiven him and we are moving towards being better together, but I blame solely him. I can’t vilify this OW any more than I vilify him because he was the one who was supposed to cherish me and forsake others. He was the one I had built a life with. He had promised to be my partner in life. To forgive him and understand his flaws did make me think how she probably has her own demons that she’s struggling with. I do still have mean and nasty thoughts towards her, but it’s fading every day and sometimes I hope she gets the help she needs so that she can have a second chance at life, too, just like I have given him. (And, then some days, I still wish she loses all her hair overnight, gains 100 pounds, gets horrible adult acne, etc…!!!) CONT’D…

    ReplyDelete
  9. ANONYMOUS, PART 2

    As others have posted, there is NO satisfaction in contacting her. There’s even less satisfaction in outing her to others. I say this from experience. You may think you’ll get some satisfaction, but there’s none. Just none. It only makes you feel sadder. I exposed some before we started therapy. It only led to even more self-doubt and self-loathing on my part, and a lot of gossip around town about how I was the crazy one. People may agree that you were wronged, but they are very uncomfortable with a woman ranting and raving and pointing the finger! I heard more than a few “no wonder he cheated” comments which only fueled my hysteria! One of my lowest moments in life was yelling at her 80 year old parents about how their daughter was a whore and I hoped they were proud of her. If I could take that one action back, I would in a second. After I was hung up on by them, I just crumpled and wondered what I had come to. I felt I couldn’t hold my head up any higher than she could, I had handed her that power that I could be just as hurtful as her. And the shame I feel that my children know I did these things is another burden I bear. I teach them all the time that two wrongs don’t make a right, always keep your dignity, etc… and it’s hard for me to not be embarrassed of my actions. I understand them, I have forgiven myself, I understand any one in our positions lashing out, but looking back - I just am not proud.

    For all these reasons, I say let it go with obsession with the OW. I’ve read some stories on here of BS’s who admitted they were an OW long ago and we still support them because of their pain! And we do that because we are good and compassionate people on here. Take your energy and focus on him. Focus on learning why he did what he did. You have to understand why HE did this in order to move forward. It doesn't matter why she did, it only matters why he participated. Focus on what you have done to hurt him. And, then solely focus on you getting stronger as a couple. Don’t let thoughts of her continue to ruin any progress you are making as a couple. It's easier said than done, but don’t let her continue to be a part of your marriage, she didn’t belong in it before and she doesn’t belong in it now either.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh my goodness, what an incredible post. Thank-you so so much for this. I suspect you've done a whole lot for others by sharing your experience. I'm so sorry for all you've gone through but it sure sounds as though you're walking talking proof of "when we know better, we do better".
      Perhaps you'll let me re-post this on the main site so that more will have the chance to read it?? Let me know if that's okay.

      Delete
    2. Hi Elle, sure you can re-post it. It's been a painful journey and I have done things I regret, all part of the process, but I definitely have learned things along the way that I wish I had known from the start. Some days, especially being a parent myself, it's hard to shake the fact that I was telling another parent that their child was vile! And, I may have the only husband on the planet who wanted credit for deciding to have an affair because it proved he was capable of making a decision for himself! All kidding aside, his outburst that day really is proof that you have to do the work to get at the root of the problem in order to have a chance at fixing it and healing. I see you say that over and over again and it's so true. Blaming the OW and obsessing over her plays no part in healing, it just keeps you mired in the pain. Thanks for all you do, your site is wonderful and helpful to everyone regardless of what phase of the journey that they are on.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous,
      Thank you! I needed to read this tonight. I know in my heart that my hatred for the OW is not healthy. I know, and have even said to others, that no good can come from contacting them or attempting to shame them. But tonight, I was triggered and started recalling things from nearly a year ago. I spiraled out of control and lashed out at my husband, who has tried hard to do all the right things, who works every day to be a better person. I said awful things about "her" and what a piece of trash she is and how could she have done the things she has done. His response was that when he hears those things it hurts him because I might as well be saying them about him. He knows his behavior was no better.
      We talked for nearly two hours and it's been emotional. He is exhausted and has fallen asleep. I can't sleep so I came here and your post couldn't have had more perfect timing. I needed to hear exactly what you said. I needed the reminder to stay the course and focus on myself and my marriage. Thank you for that. Truly, thank you.

      Delete
  10. Today is my 14th wedding anniversary, and I'm happy to say it was a good day. Yes, the thoughts of his betrayal surfaced, and yet I was able to let them go and not get worked up over it. It's like it's finally scabbed over, I'm starting to be able to think of it as something that is fully in the past. Some days are harder than others, but I'm having more and more good days. And the bad days aren't as bad as they used to be. Usually it's a few tears and a cuddle and I'm back on track, not yelling and screaming and wishing I'd never met him like it was in that first year. We're striving towards a new future.

    I've been reading about attachment styles and learned that I'm someone who needs a lot of reassurance, even before all this. I'd been reluctant to ask all the time, feeling like that will just remind us both of what happened and make us sad again. But my husband said to ask him anytime I need reassurance. So I have been, and it's really helping. It's much easier to stop those thoughts in their tracks when I can go up to him and ask him for a hug, as him how he's doing, is he happy to be with me, etc.

    I'll always regret what it took to get us here, and so will he. But at least we're here now. I know I'm not finished with this journey yet (we're at 19 months now), but even a year ago, if you'd told me I could be happy like this again, I wouldn't have believed you. I don't think I could have made it this far without all of you. Thank you all.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Just a quick vent: I swear if I have to hear one more stinking time that porn and sex addiction are not real, I will take someone's head off. A few decades ago people didn't believe that gambling addiction was real either, no one denies it now.

    Some days I feel like it shouldn't bother me that much. My husband admits that it's real, and admits that he is an addict. He's in recovery for it after finally seeking proper treatment post D-day. But I feel re-victimized every time I have to see someone claim that there's no such thing as porn/sex addiction. As someone whose life was destroyed by it, it's very hard to be invalidated so often.

    Tell people your partner is an alcoholic, no one says that's not real. Tell people your partner uses heroin, no one says that's not real. Tell people your partner gambled away your kid's college fund, people understand. But tell people you're married to a porn addict, and they basically laugh in your face and assume that you're a cold fish and horrible in bed and the he wouldn't "need" to turn to porn and other women if you were a better lover. Sigh.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Gee,
      It used to drive me crazy too but not so much now. It's just ignorance. Alcoholism used to be considered just a problem with willpower. Same with overweight people. Brain science is revealing that many things can shift the neural pathways in the brain creating addictive/compulsive behaviour. And, as I've said before, nobody who's seen sex addiction up close thinks there's anything sexy or exciting about it. It's ugly and it's messy and it's about self-loathing and pain. Hardly what anyone would sign up for.

      Delete
  12. My husband's porn use has changed me. I cannot watch a movie w/o seeing the women in it through "his eyes". I cannot see an attractive woman on the street w/o seeing her through "his eyes". I cannot look at my own body w/o seeing myself through "his eyes".

    Because of porn, his eyes are "wired" to see women as sexually desirable body parts rather than as people. Yet, it was HE that chose to do that. I lived 10 years dressing in the closet and locking the bathroom door...having sex with him in the dark and wondering "who" he is imagining himself to be with while touching me. Sex was mechanical gymnastics of reenacting porn scenes...no love or affection, no tenderness, no laying in bed snuggling. NOTHING.

    He then decided (a CHOICE rather than a "mistake") to start an EA with a woman at his work. Having private lunches in the back room when no one was around. She was 20yrs younger than me, and had a reputation for being quite "loose" (he wanted anal sex which I would not do.

    When he was caught, all he could muster up was "I blew the boundaries". What I came to realize was that these were MY boundaries rather than HIS OWN. Boundaries that I had erected to protect myself from his wayward heart. Apparently, he has no boundaries of his own except to not get caught. So we are no longer together.

    The fantasy of porn is so destructive because it feeds a man's dopamine center for excitement, the forbidden, strange, and quickly creates a discontentment with who he already has. It EXPOSES the desires of what a man REALLY prefers over his wife...and devalues her. I had enough shame for what I had to offer him as a woman to last me for a lifetime.

    I hope that this helps to validate how you feel and the reality of what women all over the world are living with.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sweetz,
      I think porn isn't unlike food or alcohol or, well, anything in that, for some people, it's an occasional indulgence but for others, it changes the wiring in their brain. Though I do think porn, especially hard-core porn, can be dangerous in that it depicts a very male-centric view of sex that relegates females to the status of props rather than people.

      Delete
  13. Is it wrong that I have been fantasising (a lot!) about being single again? I think the lack of control I've felt over this whole mess is making me crave being on my own and able to make my own decisions. Kind of like a safety blanket?

    I feel sad about what we've become. Honesty, it feels like separating would be easier for me. If things were over between us, I wouldn't be second guessing whether he is in touch with her, wouldn't be wondering if I knew everything there was to know? It would be over...in the past.

    Ladies, anyone that has the nerve to tell you that you're a wuss for staying with a cheater...they do not know what they are talking about!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Gee
      You are so right that those who choose to stay are not weak or 'Wussies'! There were many times I wanted to run away to our lake house and leave him to deal with the devil woman but I had to stay and face it it all with him! By doing so, it brought us together in a way we had been drifting apart for years. So... No wuss here! It takes a strong brave woman to pick up her broken man and watch him put himself back together into a better man than he was before! Hugs!

      Delete
  14. I get this feeling! Fantasizing about a life without him wasn't something I did before. Then afterwards, man did it start to sound beautiful for a while! It felt exciting at times to think about having my own place and meeting some new people, dating again... all the benefits of being single. I think it's both a great fantasy escape for us and it also makes considering the reality that we might be headed that way more bearable. You start to form a backup plan... or maybe the backup plan becomes the real plan? I think it might give us back the sense of having options and some control over lives.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Piper and Aelia - absolutely! About four months after DDay my h and I did separate. At that time I was such a mess and only wanted him back. Now, one year out and I wonder ...
    Last night h and I had a tiff - I would say unrelated to the affair, but truth is, everything in my head is related to the affair - as in, he should never get crabby on me again, doesn't he know he had an affair! My h is not easy to live with. He grew up in a home where yelling and disagreement were the norm - whereas I heard my parents raise their voices once, and only once, in my whole life (and they were married 59 years when dad died). Given his family's constant yelling and bickering, he doesn't even see that his behavior is out of line ... through our years together and some counseling, he has gotten MUCH better! yet he can still be a PITA.
    So tonight, just before bed I was so happy to see your posts - "fantasizing about being single" were delicious thoughts to lull me into slumber. The house would be mine - with an empty garage! I would get a dog - or two! I would host dinner parties for my friends :-) Extra room in the closets, and the book shelves, and the junk drawers! And that sexy, spiritual attorney who said, "I was hoping you weren't married ... "
    Ah, yes ....
    Oh, and did I mention, I'd go on that two week hike in Peru my sister is inviting me on ... Ok, time to go back to fantasizing... and to sleep ... and dreaming .... thanks girls :-)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I so relate to how, in our heads, everything is related to the affair...and how DARE these asses EVER so much as look at us cross-eyed after what they've done! A part of me (and only a part because I have my own issues with perceived weakness in men) wants him to spend the rest of his life in servitude to me for his behavior.

      I don't often fantasize about being single, although I can kind of get into daydreaming about what it would be like to meet attractive men and actually be able to let them pursue me or I them. The ego boost alone sounds divine (although that's part of what got us into this mess on his part...yuck)!

      You want a dog? Is your H allergic? No one should be denied canine companionship unless absolutely necessary! Tell him it's his "I'm sorry I was a POS back there" gift to you!

      And the trip to Peru sounds like something that doesn't require being single...is it not a consideration? What a once in a lifetime opportunity!

      Delete
    2. Oh yes! I was so there. If my husband so much as wanted to change the channel on the television, I would seethe -- how dare he. He cheated on me. It felt like I should pretty much get whatever I wanted for the rest of my life. A nice feeling in the short term but nothing to build a relationship on.
      About two (or maybe three?) years post D-Day, my husband ended up with an infection near his heart -- misdiagnosed in the emergency room as a heart attack (he was only late 40s but his father had a heart attack in his late 40s) and, in the moment that they told me they thought he was having a heart attack and asking me to sign off on some test, it hit me that I could actually lose him. Suddenly extra closet space and the toilet seat always down didn't seem so important. A wake-up call, I guess.
      And, Melissa?? Go to Peru!!

      Delete
    3. So interesting. I think about this often. More along the lines of when my kids are grown will I want to be with him? Right now I try to remove my kids from the equation but honestly I cannot. I know I need to decide if I want to stay with him. But the thought of my kids not being with me every day is too much to consider. I am their primary caregiver and my daughters and I are very close especially my youngest. And the other thought I have which I feel horrible about is if my parents passed away and I would I stay with him. At first I thought he is my family then and his family is so close to me. Yet with an inheritance would I stay with him? I know it sounds terrible but I do wonder about that. My parents are young but it would change my life. And do I want to share that with him? Or would that security change my attitude towards our marriage and him. Again I feel terrible for saying it but there is some security in our marriage from a financial perspective.

      Considering these things makes me feel terrible on some level. But they are part of the equation. I have never really fantasized about someone else, I guess at some level I lack trust in anyone else at this point. I don't think I would get any satisfaction from it. But I do think about at what point would something change my mind. One of the hardest things for me is my husband gushing about our future once our kids are in college and beyond. He cannot wait for our time together and everything we can do as a couple. Sometimes I want to vomit and tell him to be quiet. Other times I am like this is amazing. There goes the roller coaster...

      Delete
    4. Hopeful 30, everything you've said is completely 'normal' I reckon marriages without the infidelity consider what you have lol. Seriously weighing up your options is not a bad thing even if you don't follow them through. We do it all the time with our lives, whether it's about a job, children, money etc etc the list goes on. So please don't feel 'terrible' your thoughts are valid given the circumstances.

      Here's hoping your roller coaster ride is coming to an end verry soon. Lots of love xxx

      Delete
    5. Hopeful30,
      I'm with Sam A. Just let your feelings be your feelings. It's hardly uncommon to be reconsidering what your future might look like given what you've gone through. For the partner who cheated, there can be such relief that he didn't actually lose everything, that he's almost gleeful. But for the betrayed partner, we've got a shitload of pain and disappointment to work through before we're rubbing our hands together in glee. And that takes a lot of time and self-compassion. And it wouldn't hurt to be honest with your husband -- that while you appreciate his delight that you're giving him a second chance, you're not yet able to simply look forward as if there's nothing but joy and light in your future.

      Delete
  16. BWC Warriors, please send prayers, good thoughts and well wishes my way on Monday. I'm having lunch (can't imagine I'll actually be eating much) with the OW on Monday. We need to be able to be comfortable enough around each other in order to deal with each other regularly for the baby's sake. H and I have made great strides (and backslid a few times) in the past two months and we both very much feel called to be a part of this child's life SO as much as I'm dreading it, I'm looking forward to meeting with her too because I want this to be as easy as possible for us and the little one.

    I can't explain how I feel, some days I look forward to meeting this little one, it will be exciting to have a baby in the house again and then other days I just want to run away from it all. H is struggling greatly with his depression and the shame and embarrassment of it all, but despite that, he has made great efforts in recognizing and getting help for his depression. I'm super proud of his for how far he has come (when I don't want to wring his neck anyway). I'm fairly certain that the next two weeks will be among the worst of my life (rivaling with the last DDay when I received full disclosure), on top of that, my dog, my first baby, has been struggling with a bout of pneumonia we can't get under control. More proof that no matter how much I want to, I cannot control anything but my actions and reactions. I haven't posted much recently but I do try to check in regularly and am praying for all of us to continue on our path of healing, whatever it looks like for each of us.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You are truly a warrior...and one who is incredibly merciful. I can't pretend to know what you're going through, but I respect you beyond what words can express for the way you're handling your situation.

      Prayers for your warrior heart and for the health of your pup.

      Delete
    2. Ashes,
      I'm with Dana. You are incredible -- your strength and your grace through this is remarkable. Stay focussed on what you can control. In the meantime, prayers for your dog to fight his (her?) own battle. And please, keep us posted about Monday. Picture an army of us behind you, supporting you and sending you every bit of strength we have.

      Delete
    3. Out of the ashes
      Prayers for you in the strength that you have found within your heart to do what you feel is in the best interest of an innocent child regardless of how difficult it may be for you God is in control and will guide you through this storm. Prayers for your first baby fur babies do count to be healed. Keep your heart strong and the decisions you need to make will be easier to live with one day at a time! My admiration for such a brave lady!

      Delete
    4. Ashes,
      I'll be saying some prayers for you for both the meeting on Monday and for your sweet dog. You have shown an amazing level of grace in regard to your situation.
      Hugs!

      Delete
    5. Thinking of you! Your honesty and positive thoughts are so empowering. I am impressed by your attitude and your ability to move forward.

      Delete
    6. Thank you everyone! Elle, I reread your message right before I went into the restaurant and felt carried by the army behind me, bless you all! Lunch went better than I expected, at the end of the day we want what's best for the baby. It made me feel good to stress to her that I would respect her as the mother of one of my H's children if she would respect my place as his wife and the fact that we are repairing our marriage and to be able to reinforce some of the boundaries he had told her we were setting. It might just be lip service to her, who knows, but it felt good to be able to be firm on that. Because of the affair (about 8 months) and the multiple DDays, which indicated his inability to break it off until losing me became evident, I've had the OW built up as the perfect companion, one who knows all about him, is fun, etc. It was refreshing to see that was not the case, there were a few conversations we had about the baby that I would reference something important to my husband, it stood out to me that she really doesn't know him at all. H kept expressing to me that it really wasn't deep, it really was about the attention and his inability to deal with his depression/feelings before the affair, but there it was in my face yesterday and I think I finally understood. She doesn't know him, she thinks she does, but it really was superficial. The other thing that really stood out to me is how badly (I think) she just wanted my life. Not mine specifically, but a family, husband, etc. and instead of building her own, she set out to steal one. The sickest kind of compliment around I suppose. I had said this over and over when I found out about the affair, that she looked around at what we had and decided that she wanted it, without knowing the blood sweat and tears we put into building everything we had. But her biggest concern/worry currently is that the baby will like being with us more because we are an actual family and it will just be her with her girls. She must have mentioned us being a family four or five times. I don't feel sorry for her, I can't, but I do feel some compassion. From what I've gathered from her family history and what I know of her friends, she really didn't see an issue with her actions and the biggest surprise was that my H actually woke up to his stupidity and didn't leave, in her world, staying never would have been an option. By no means do I think this excuses her actions, at some point we are each responsible for the path we walk, but it does help me feel more at peace about extending that forgiveness. And please don't think by any means I hold her more responsible than H for the affair, I really don't, but for a time I garnered such anger and hatred for her for pursuing a married man (something they both admit is that she pursued him). It was nice to see that she is not the monster that I've built in my head, as I know many of us have. Would I have walked the same path if I was in her shoes? I'd like to think not, but I just don't know, none of us can say that for sure because our paths are so different from that of the OW. By no means does this mean I trust her and H and I had the conversation again last night about having to be careful to unintentionally lead her on just by virtue of being friendly and concerned about the baby, but it does give me some insight and peace and settles me more in the fact that I am the one that knows my husband, the good, the bad and the ugly and boy, has there been a lot of ugly lately, but the good is coming back, there are glimpses of sunshine peeking through.

      Delete
    7. I am going to ask that you continue to keep my fur baby in your prayers, his condition is worsening. Please pray for us to guide my four year old through the next couple of weeks and a prayer or two that the baby not be H's would be appreciated! We do believe it's his, but there is still that small chance that she is the other guys', which would really be ideal for everyone involved. Once again, you l amaze me with your compassion in the midst of your own pain.

      Delete
    8. Ashes,
      Again, I am awed by your grace and your compassion. Prayers for your pup (I have two dogs and know all too well the sadness that goes along with one that's struggling or one that you have to let go) and prayers that this all turns out to be someone else's baby and not your husband's.
      Please keep us posted. Your army awaits...

      Delete
    9. Out of the ashes
      Your grace and compassion are so remarkable and inspirational! I've been sending prayers for you all weekend and I was glad to see it was not as bad as you feared. I will continue to ask God to heal your fur baby, your heart and to give you continued strength to face whatever the coming year brings forth! You give hope!

      Delete
    10. Ashes,

      You are an inspiration! Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective on the OW as a person who has warts too - just like the rest of us. I have often thought of the OW as this amazing angel of a person who is so much better than me has none of my faults ect. Of course I know this is not true in fact is far far from the truth. And my H has often said that she is someone he would never have a real relationship with. Why is it so hard to believe the best of ourselves and so easy to believe the worst.

      Once again, you inspire me and I wish you and your H health and healing as you continue on your path together. Love and prayers for your puppy too.

      Becky

      Delete
    11. Wow. Just...wow. Ashes, I am in awe. You are so strong and so loving. I can only imagine the incredibly difficult path you have walked to get where you are. You ARE a warrior! I am praying for your fur baby.

      Delete
  17. Out of the ashes, Wow! Good for you and your husband - Because if you, this baby will receive lots of love. What a wonderful soul you are. And prayers for the health of your family, furry baby included. :-)

    ReplyDelete
  18. Dana and Elle, thanks for your comments earlier. I needed to hear that I was not the only one that felt as if my husband should never, ever be cranky with me again, or disagree with me again. And Elle, you make an excellent point regarding the potential loss of your husband.
    As for the dog? We both want a dog one day, however, we have a cat now that is elderly, and we do travel a lot. Having said all that, I believe if I were single, I would feel safer and, frankly, more life and love in my house, if I had a dog.
    As for Peru? I have my own reservations about the trip… I have a new business which I do not feel comfortable leaving for two weeks and I do not have the strongest stomach to be drinking the waters on the hiking trails of Peru - yet again, I know if I were single, to add adventure, and combat loneliness, I would most likely go on the trip. Who knows? If I find myself on the trip, or I get a dog, I will be sure to let you know. Smiles and hugs!

    ReplyDelete
  19. The children were away this weekend, staying with grandparents.

    We talked. I was deeply hurt as it had been my birthday a couple of days before, and I hadn't even got a card from him. This, a man who managed to organise overseas travel and hotels for a woman in a different time zone...never mind the effort he put into the other affairs.

    He got annoyed that I brought up his affair, saying he was exhausted that I couldnt let us go (I reminded him that I found out just before Christmas...that we aren't even two solid months from dday)

    My husband told me that he couldn't promise to be faithful to me, that in order for us to stay together I had to accept that he may cheat on me.

    I think he is a narcissist. I think I am wasting my time. My friend who I've talked to a great deal thinks that he just doesn't know what to do or say to make this right...I think that he just doesn't care any more.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Piper, I will not give you advice about whether to stay or leave, nor will I disparage you husband...that is yours to decide. BUT, please guard you heart. Yes, it is very early on for the both of you, but his ultimatum that he's may cheat, take it or leave it, is making me want to bust down your door and whisk you away to safety.

      You posted earlier that you've been fantasizing about the single life. Maybe now is the time to test the waters. A separation isn't a final decision, but it may give you the clarity you need to make the choices that are right for you.

      We are all here for you.

      Delete
    2. If he says that you have to accept that he may cheat, then I say cut your losses. My husband swears he will never do it again. I know there's no way to be sure of that. After all, he swore he'd never cheat on me before any of this ever happened! But everything he's done since has shown me that he means to keep that promise from now on.

      If mine told me that going forward, fidelity may not happen and I just have to accept that, then I would be done. I deserve better, and so do you. Rebuilding a marriage is tough enough with a partner who is completely committed to making it work. You can't do it on your own.

      Delete
    3. piper

      Those are some very serious remarks and actions from your H. I know for us the early post d-day months were really intense and crazy, but the remark of expecting continued affairs is a very serious red flag. Please think carefully and respect yourself. You deserve a healthy honest faithful relationship. Never doubt this. Take care of yourself, be kind and make choices that are best for you.

      Love and support
      Becky.

      Delete
    4. Dear Piper,
      I don't know if this is anything like your scenario really, probably not, but I want to mention that mine had a not dissimilar temporary head-up-ass time I thought might be useful to mention to you.

      H went through a phase of telling me he was a man and had different needs and I wasn't jealous enough in his opinion so he should be allowed to have a girlfriend but I should only be his because I was "monogamous" and he was "polyamorous" but he couldn't stand the idea of me being with anyone else. I see this as possibly being similar to refusing to promise there won't be more affairs in the future. He even went through a phase of telling me that I didn't actually want him to myself, I was just societally brainwashed into believing that's what I thought I wanted...

      The affair was unfortunately how I found out he thought he could decide for me what I thought/felt/wanted without actually having a proper conversation with me. He grew up with a mom who does the same damn thing and I'd just never picked up on it.... as they never tell you what they've decided you think....

      With enough tantrums, emotional chaos and repetitions that he was wrong, he did start to listen to what I was actually saying about my boundaries and feelings and started asking what I was okay with instead of telling me what I was okay with AND changing his behavior to be within my boundaries.

      This is why I stayed. He made changes immediately as he started to pull his head out of his ass so he wouldn't hurt me and so I was happy with him. He was raised with the stupid idea that he could read minds but as soon as he understood he was wrong -- and it took a f*ing sledgehammer to get it through his thick skull-- the changes were immediate. He still slips up sometimes but I can call him on it immediately now.

      Again, no idea if this what your guy is up to. Maybe he really just doesn't give a damn but this might make a nice litmus test. Is he making changes where he sees his behavior is hurting you? Ask him to repeat back to you that he knows that what he is doing is hurting you.

      If he clearly states back to you that he doesn't give a shit then.... I'd start shopping for a new bedwarmer for your new apartment. =D Seriously though, it's your choice but you'll know better what you're getting in to.

      Delete
    5. Piper,
      This is where your conditions for reconciliation come in -- your clear and unequivocal boundaries. Nobody -- NOBODY -- can guarantee that they will never cheat. But what your husband can guarantee is that he will do everything he possibly can to try to understand why he cheated and take every possible step to ensure he doesn't put you through that pain again. Without that commitment on his part, he's essentially telling you that his efforts will be lukewarm at best and then, well, who knows what might happen.
      NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
      So you respond with, "well, one of my non-negotiable conditions for reconciliation is that you commit to figuring out why you cheated -- what story you were telling yourself that made it okay to deceive and manipulate me in order to violate our commitment -- and gain skills and tools to ensure that our marriage is based on honesty and transparency. It's not that freaking hard to just not take your damn pants off. Seriously. A commitment to honesty means that, should he ever find himself in that situation again, he'll come home, tell you he's going to have sex with someone else and you can push your divorce lawyer's number on speed dial.
      Piper, maybe he's just one of those "well, I can't PROMISE it won't happen again" the same way he might say he can't promise that a meteor won't crash into earth tomorrow. I say bullshit. He can absolutely promise to take steps to clean up his act.

      Delete
    6. I just want to say Thankyou to all of you. I think I know what I have to do, it's just terrifying.

      I told him that I felt based on our recent conversations that we didn't have a future, and when I started to actively make arrangements he freaked.

      He told me that he had changed, that by saying he couldn't promise me he wouldn't cheat he didn't mean he intended to, but that he knows he has an impulse problem and he needs to deal with it. I still feel that so much of this is about his wants, his needs etc. So I'm starting to take care of my own and our kids.

      I want to kick him out right now, but I know I need to be sensible and take is slowly for the sake of the kids and my sanity. One day at a time....

      Also, there is a hangover to this that I am struggling to deal with. The last ap knew he was a married father, she was much younger and married but with no kids. She is also very beautiful. Her husband forgave her and she is always posting up photos of them and their bliss (I know, I shouldn't go looking!). I'm sad that my life has fallen apart and hers seems to have gotten better, I think her husband got a scare and now treasures her...I need to move on from feeling angry about this. Constructive ways forward for when the other woman seems to be better than you physically and be generally amazing, faultless woman?

      Delete
    7. Piper,
      Please PLEASE don't believe the fairy tale you're seeing on social media of this OW. If her husband got "scared" and now "treasures" her, then he's the only guy in the world not deeply affected by his wife's affair.
      Remember, you're dealing with a woman who can spin a situation so that she can convince herself that she's not really doing anything wrong. To imagine she's spinning her "public" persona isn't much of a stretch. So, to put it another way, you're only seeing what she wants you to see. Ignore it. Don't look. It's just more fantasy on her part. She's an unscrupulous, phony person. The outside might be glossy but the insides are writhing snakes where no heart beats.
      You're doing the right thing by remaining focussed on you and your kids. His recovery from this is HIS problem. Have you seen a lawyer to create something of an exit plan should you decide to leave? It's not a bad idea...

      Delete
    8. There is also the fact that he doesn't know the extent of the affair. He thought he stopped when she got caught. She didn't, it carried on for another three months. She even messaged my h on her wedding anniversary....so, should I inform him of these facts? Or do I just let sleeping dogs lie?

      Delete
    9. Piper,
      I think it's up to you (sorry to pass the buck) whether you fill him in on more info. I think he deserves to know but I would hate for you to get caught in a shitstorm when you're already feeling pretty vulnerable and fragile. Can a "friend" anonymously tip him off?

      Delete
    10. Hi Elle. I have decided not to say anything to her husband. It was five months ago that the affair finished, and I'm worried I will just look crazy. She will certainly just lie to him so I'm not sure it would do any good anyway.

      I told my H today that it seemed so unfair that we were miserable and she seemed to have come out of it so well. He was surprised I thought this. Apparently she has gained a lot of weight and has struggled with depression in the past. He said she was far from perfect, not particularly bright and fairly low hanging fruit.

      This was a surprise to me. I have spent the past few months with this woman in a pedestal. Today she fell off, and I'm not going to put her back up there. Thankyou so much for all that you do, this place has been a lifeline x

      Delete
  20. So Piper...basically he is giving you a "heads up" at what you can expect going forward. No Birthday Card even? Yes, you are wasting your time...but you can use that time to get all your ducks in a row. You don't have anything to work with here. Sorry.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I guess I am needing someone to tell me what to do. It's been almost 7 months since DDay. Individually, I know I am stronger - I can think more clearly and with less hopelessness and despair. I have a job - I can be self sufficient if need be. My H and I have been in couples counseling since one week post DDay. H has only been to 5 individual counseling sessions. I go to individual counseling every week - every week. I think I would go crazy if I didn't.
    Here's the thing - my H says all the right things - but his actions are still selfish. I just don't know if he can think of anyone but himself sometimes. While we are able to talk about his A without me just wanting to die, or locking myself in the bathroom and crying and sleeping on the floor....H still withholds so much from me - H can't ever just be completely forthcoming. H still makes comments in front of our counselor that I seem to ask the same questions over and over. You know what? They are NOT the same questions - NOPE. I am sick of my H not being honest. My H thinks that if I don't discuss or have questions, that everything is just going great. What H doesn't understand is - I think about it EVERY DAMN DAY. It doesn't occupy hours and hours any longer - but I think about it. H has told me many things over the past months as to why he wanted to be with another woman - the latest is "We were married so young" and "had kids right away". WTF - I TRAPPED this MAN?? H was 26 and I was 25 .... I don't think my H is facing one damn thing...not ONE. H says he is handling his own issues in his own way..... AVOID. I have a gut feeling my H has been with several OW - but he denies. Yet - why believe someone who cannot be completely honest? H will lie his ass off to keep me - but this is only making me want to run. I have definite control issues I am working on - I know I cannot MAKE my H face anything, DO anything, BE honest....NOTHING. Damn it - what should I do?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anon1998
      Your h sounds a lot like mine. My h doesn't see his current behavior as selfish even though to me somethings he does is very selfish. He's trying hard but still he will go play 18 holes of golf on Sunday after spending most of his Saturday maintaining the two houses we own. I usually spend this time with church and playing Cinderella! Therapy for me is to stay busy! This is no longer a regular weekend pattern as my h has found a way to include fun time activities as well. He is teaching me golf. I think there are lots of men that are selfish and I think woman are less selfish given our roles in life in general. 7 months still raw emotions swirling around. I've known about my h affair since October 2014 but it has only been 5 months since she last contacted him. My h said pretty much the same things about us having been married so young, getting older, wondered about different sex, explored porn, was depressed about life in general. The affair fog lifted for him and he began to make changes in himself before the ow spilled their truths on me. He tried to keep her from hurting me further by not telling me of some early contacts she made as he tried ignoring her for months. I was not a very stable person during those months. I asked questions until my h was sick of it! Yes somethings had to be told over and over until I understood the his answers sometimes didn't make since and then after I really listened, I was able to understand where his mind was even when he kept his heart out of the affair! That was very hard for me to grasp! I never stopped loving you/us, was repeated over and over . I kept asking how can you do that and he really could never explain other than he kept us in one box and them in a different box until the ugly box crashed into the one he treasured! Until your h faces the pain he has caused you, emotions will continue to roller coaster! Continued sessions for him should help him face this with you! Hugs for you and prayers for strength to move forward! Breathe....

      Delete
    2. Theresa -
      Thank you so much for your words today. My H says the same thing - "I never stopped loving you/us", "I was never going to leave you". I just cannot understand that. I tell my H this. H has told me he just thought if he didn't talk to the OW or ignored her, she would go away. But she didn't - OW would not let go. But my H would not end it with final words either. H said he tried and they ended things TWICE - but for reasons H doesn't understand, they got back together.
      I am trying to HEAR him - that is going to take time.

      Delete
    3. Anon 1998
      You take as long as it takes because try as I might some of it I just had to accept with out understanding but knowing that my h learned a very hard lesson in a very painful way and it made him realize he did not want to be the man he was. I didn't hear for a long time and my h just had to accept that he had to repeat over and as often as I needed and believe me those were some slow painful months! But for me it was necessary for my healing and for me to move forward and return the main focus on OUR future! We still slip back a little from time to time but we are able to help each other focus on a path with less pain towards each other! Please be patient with yourself and watch his actions even when his words don't bring satisfaction! I myself had to see him showing me rather than hear him telling me the words I'm sorry and I love you with ALL my heart! I'm very needie and now I'm the one making my needs heard rather than him to guess what I'm in need of! Weather I need a hug or just reassurance or anything at all! I am so much more demanding now and he tells me he understands and his desire is to fulfill all my needs as that is where his happiness lies. Hugs as you continue to slug through the mud if the mess he created!

      Delete
    4. Anon 1998,
      Sometimes, when we give our husbands a second chance, we imagine a transformation in them. We imagine them, finally, becoming the guys we think they should have been all along. Without the deception of the affair, without the supreme selfishness of cheating, we think they'll see the error of their ways, realize their great luck in having us in their lives and turn over a new leaf.
      Sometimes that happens.
      But often it doesn't.
      Often the guy who cheated did so because he has the insight of a guinea pig. Often the guy who cheated has an outlook that insists he's the center of the universe and while he didn't mean to hurt anyone, he was feeling really really lousy until an affair made him feel better. Often the guy who cheated is still an asshole even when they've been caught and insist that they still love us and that they never ever ever were going to walk away from the marriage that they love.
      What the hell?
      But that's where you need to take a clear-eyed look at your husband. Are you seeing someone who's truly remorseful and willing to really look at his choices and his character and who genuinely wants to do better? Or are you looking at someone who thinks that, yeah, what he did was pretty shitty but that, if you would only open your mind a bit, you just might be able to see it from his point of view?
      It hurts like hell, I know. But you can't make him become a great husband. If he's self-centred and not really interested in NOT being self-centred, then that's your husband. You get to decide whether that's enough for you.

      Delete
  22. So a while back I asked people if people who were further on the road to healing, that if they could go back in time with knowledge they have now, would they still marry their husband? Would they say that it was worth it and they'd do it all again if they had to make the choice?

    I felt like I had to come to a point where I would say "yes" to that question to actually be happy that I stayed and am still with my husband now. Like how some women say that their husband's affair turned out to be best thing that ever happened to them and their marriage. There is no way I will ever say that. That just goes too far.

    So my situation feels strange. Because if I could go back, I wouldn't marry him. In fact, there's a critical decision I made at 16 years old that if I'd gone the other way, I would never have even met him. And yet...I'm happy. I don't regret being with him NOW. I had to do a lot of work with my therapist to come to this point of acceptance. I have regrets. So does everyone. Hindsight is 20/20, and if I could live my life over with this knowledge, I would have made vastly different choices. And yet that doesn't steal the joy and meaning I find in my life and marriage now.

    I was really stuck on this for a long time. I felt like it was impossible to feel both things: the regret that I made the choices that led me here, and yet still be happy with the life I've made in spite of all of it. I hope this will help someone else who is similarly stuck.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Gee
      If I could go back I would still want to be married to this man. He is really one of those good men that made terrible choices at a desparate time in our lives. During the years of his affair, I consider his affair from beginning to end, even those many months that stretched into a year of getting her out of our lives. I've seen him battle to regain my faith and trust in his live even if total trust is stained! I would not change much of my experience with this man as up until he crossed that line with this ow, he really was a good h and a very present father for our children. A true partner that was for the most part considerate of my feelings first. So the period of time he was with her was so insignificant both in the amount of months he was in the physical affair but more so because he wasn't emotional attached to her as she was to him. I've watched my h slowly return to the man I most admire even though I had the same emotions others express here. I was so angry for a period of months that he began to fear I would never love him enough to forgive him. I hated the sight of him even as I craved to be in his presence as much as possible. I hope my rambling thoughts help.

      Delete
    2. Thank you for sharing Theresa, it does help.

      I figure that time may come one day. I may one day, years from now, look back and say it was all worth it, and that I wouldn't make a different choice when it comes down to it. Who knows? We're not even at the two-year mark yet, so I know I may feel differently further down the road. But it was very freeing to realize I can be happy even if I don't feel that way.

      Delete
    3. Gee,
      Wow, I'm so glad you posted that. Because I feel the very same way. I wouldn't have married him. But I'm glad I did. We have a great life. We have three beautiful children that I wouldn't change for the world.
      But I also know that if I had taken a different path, I wouldn't miss what had never existed. Like some sort of philosophical riddle.

      Delete
    4. Gee, my hurt is still pretty raw, buy honestly I regret ever marrying him. My babies are the only good thing, but if they didn't exist, we would have been over a long, long time ago.

      Delete
    5. Piper, I understand that. For a long time the only reason I stayed was because I didn't want to break up my son's family unless I was absolutely sure I was done with my marriage.

      Delete
  23. Ok so I have just joined this website because I feel as if I really need some help.

    My husband and I have been married for one year. We had been dating for 7 years before we got married. We starting dating when I was 19 and he was 21. He was my first real serious boyfriend and I loved him beyond words. Before we got married I was beginning to have dreams and a gut feeling he was cheating on me. I asked him point blank before we were married if he was cheating on me because I kept on having these feelings. He told me no and that I was crazy and anxious. I thought it was just wedding anxiety and pushed my feelings to the side. I was focused on wedding planner, work and completing my master’s program. However during our honeymoon he was always on his phone. I decided I needed to look in his phone to be sure. One week after we were married I went into his phone and found text messages from a girl where he sent an explicit sexual photo. I did further digging and found he sent explicit videos to different email addresses that I am unfamiliar with. Lastly within his email I found an email from a woman (that is from 3 years ago), where she declares his affections for him. The girl even goes as far as saying “I know you have a girlfriend and this is awful” I have tried to put this in the past and move on but at times I hate him. I feel like I am young enough to just move on. The problem is I’ve been with him so long I’m not sure if I stay due to comfort or due to love. He has been treating me nice and I have not sensed any indications of cheating but the betrayal was so powerful. I have told him to set up a meeting with a counselor which he has yet to do. He wants to sweep it all under the rug and begin anew but he doesn’t understand how broken Iam. I also fear telling anyone because I don’t want my parents, family and friends to hate him. I feel so alone and sometimes family will ask why am I so mean to him. If they only knew it’s because of how hurt I am.
    We are still together but it is not the same. I don’t know what to do.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Brianna,
      When we're stuck in the "I don't know whether to stay or go", give yourself time. Make your conditions clear -- he needs to go to counselling. Non-negotiable. He needs to give you access to all electronics/e-mai accounts/whatever. Non-negotiable. If he balks at this, then he's giving you really good information -- that he's not that interested in helping rebuild your trust. If he continues to drag his feet and has no interest in figuring out why he went down that path, then he's giving you really good information -- that he's not interested in ensuring it doesn't happen again.
      You can drive yourself crazy with the comfort/love equation because, honestly, they become the same thing. The crazy passionate love often gives way to comfort love. And that's a normal thing. It's a good thing. But to stay out of fear of the unknown, to stay because the devil you know is better than the one you don't, to stay because you're afraid this is as good as it's going to get --- that's not comfort, it's fear. And don't make any decisions from a place a fear.
      Give yourself time. Be gentle with yourself. And watch and see how he reveals to you just who he really is. Even if he does everything right and begs your forgiveness, you don't owe him anything.
      This is your path, Brianna. You get to choose what comes next.

      Delete
    2. This is great advice, but the access to all electronic accounts is misleading. My husband did that gladly and lulled me into a false sense of security, because he had another email account and secret phone just for his affair...so even though I thought I had access, I rally didn't.

      And yeah...he is a real piece of work!!!

      Delete
    3. yes, that's true. A truly determined (or delusional) cheater will just find ways. But it's a way of not making it easy. And it's a way of making it clear that there are conditions -- that the old rules no longer apply. Sad truth is, though, that some people will simply find ways around it. However, if that's the case, then it's clear this is someone willing to carry on EVEN WHEN the emotional fallout is clear.

      Delete
  24. I've been MIA for a little while. Trying to think about other things for a change, I guess. Finally starting to get caught up again at work. Dealing with a slightly different emotional issue. But it is so good to come back and hear your voices again, and not be alone.
    It's been a pretty good week. We are having fun with the play. H is attentive, sweet, doing errands, shopping, etc. since he's not working right now. He was finally able to say that he realizes he didn't really love the OW. He said that if he could go back, he would choose me and make things work rather than choose that BS escape route. He spends more time at home and seems more content. And I am really glad and feel blessed.
    But some things nag at me lately. It's 5 months past Dday, and I've make a lot of progress, but I still need to be sad sometimes. And he doesn't like that. He wants to forget. Also, when we thought we were separating we stopped sharing passwords. He's not ready to start again. Some of his worst memories are seeing me checking up on him all the time. It was really unpleasant for me too, and I AM happier not be obsessing - but I don't know how to make him understand why I still need that security blanket. I believe him when he says he never wants to hurt me like that again. But....
    And finally - there's that sense of insecurity. You know what I mean? Apparently I was in a troubled marriage for almost 2 years, and didn't even realize it. I know - and he confirms - that it was HIS problem, not mine. But how do you ever trust happiness again?

    Looking forward to reading back on entries I've missed. Love to me sister warriors!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Phoenix,
      Five months probably feels like a lifetime. It's barely a second on the trajectory of healing. It takes so much TIME. But, paradoxically, it happens faster when your feelings around this are listened to and respected. The more you have to push aside or ignore, the louder that nagging voice of resentment or anxiety in your head will become.
      I don't doubt that it's hard for him to hear, difficult to watch you check up on him but GIVE ME A BREAK. It's NOTHING compared to the pain of betrayal. It's nothing compared to the trauma you've experienced.
      So...he's going to have to just suck it up and accept that he's going to have a tough time as you heal. But that the BEST thing he can do for you and for your marriage is to support you and listen to you and respond to you when you lay out exactly what you need. You're being a saint, as far as I'm concerned. He screwed up. There's a price to be paid for that that isn't about revenge, it's about reconciliation.

      Delete
    2. This was a hard thing for my husband to learn. I warned him from the onset that this was going to be a long up-and-down process, and that just because I might have some better days does not mean that I'm suddenly over it, so he'd better not push me to be better.

      And guess what happened two months post D-day? I had a few good days in a row. And then crashed again. And he said, "I thought you were feeling better?" I wanted to beat my head (and possibly his) against a wall. I had told him straight up not to do that. I told him from the onset that healing our relationship wouldn't be a straight line. But he still forgot. I remember screaming at him, "Of course I'm still upset. YOU CHEATED ON ME!!!!" I ended up shutting down and dissociating, I felt so hopeless. I told him that if he was going to act like that, in the end, it wouldn't be his cheating that would end our relationship, it would be his complete inability to understand my feelings.

      I'm thankful to say that he finally got it. We've had a few setbacks since then, but nothing like that. When I've had to cry or be sad again, he's been there. He says he wishes I didn't feel this way anymore, but not in an accusatory way. Just that he wishes so bad he could take it all back so I wouldn't have to hurt like this.

      As for the checking up on him: the fastest way to rebuild trust is to be able to verify that he's being trustworthy. I had a setback a few months ago when my mind started going nuts, wondering if he really was where he said he was. (He's taking a ham radio course.) When I asked him for reassurance, he immediately gave me all the evidence I could want, including offering to let me call the friend he's attending the class with to verify that he really was there the night before. I didn't feel the need to call the friend, but the fact that he was willing to do that without protest gave me the reassurance I needed to believe that he'd been truthful with me. He's been willing to have tracking software installed on his laptop and phone, a GPS tracker on his phone so I know he is where he says he is, and check-ins if he's going to be even a few minutes late. Like Elle said, that's the price he's had to pay for screwing up.

      Delete
  25. Good to hear from you again, Phoenix. :-)
    That sounds kinda funny in a place like this. Obviously, I wish none of us had to be here, but...

    ReplyDelete
  26. Phoenix, your message sums up how I am feeling too at almost 6 months out. My husband and I are separated. Some days I feel so strong and certain of what I want to do. The next day I'm in a heap and I'm uncertain of everything. I think my husband wishes I could be as positive as him for the future, but easy for him I keep telling him - he is sorting out his issues, wants to forget the affair and be a better man for me and our son. Some days I feel positive too but the trust issues, triggers etc creep in and I can't feel anything but negative, insecure and some days there are still a lot of tears. I too believe my husband is sincere when he says he wants to change, is digging deep into his issues, would never do it again....I believe his words and actions for the future, but at the moment I still have many days where the past haunts me more than any future thoughts. Elle is right though - the one thing our husbands need to do is exercise patience and compassion whilst we heal. Hang in there. If our husbands mean what they say, they'll have to hang in there with us too.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Elle - I mentioned on a different thread that I read an interesting article in The Times newspaper here in the UK. Their site is behind a paywall but I've managed to get to it. Whilst I don't necessarily agree with everything in the article, some points really resonated with me - particularly about affairs in some circumstances being to do with someone's personal psychological wellbeing - definitely the case with my H. Not so keen on hearing about the DNA argument - that's a great excuse 'oh it's in my DNA, sorry'! Anyway, there's lots to debate but thought I would share. I'm afraid I'll take up a fair few posts to get the whole article to you!

    Cheating and the happy marriage: a new understanding of adultery
    If someone has an affair, we assume that there’s something dramatically wrong with their relationship. However, there’s a new way of thinking about infidelity that turns this on its head — it’s becoming increasingly evident that people in good relationships still cheat.

    Relationship experts typically say that as many as 40 per cent of those in long-term relationships will have an affair. And they are not all in miserable, loveless marriages. Dr Helen Fisher is a biological anthropologist at the renowned Kinsey Institute, the centre for research into sexual health and behaviour in Indiana, USA. Her ground-breaking Anatomy of Love: The Natural History of Mating, Marriage and Why We Stray — an examination of human relationships from pre-history to the present — is being updated and re-published next month after more than 20 years. She cites research that shows that 34 per cent of women and 56 per cent of men who have had affairs describe their marriage as happy or very happy.

    So why is adultery rife, even in functional relationships — where they patently adore each other, their kids are charming and they still laugh at each other’s jokes? “From a Darwinian perspective we were probably evolved to want it all,” Fisher says. “And now we live in a stage of human evolution where we can actually get it all.”

    Adultery is the new perfectionism, especially for women. Economic power and more freedom of sexual expression mean we are bolder in taking what and who we want, unwilling to be a martyr to marriage — even if life is so good we’d remarry our husband (81 per cent would, according to her research with married couples). Fomo (fear of missing out) is not just for teens. Fisher says that women are still publicly bashful about their keen sexual appetites — not surprisingly, though, as “for 10,000 years, women have had to lie”.

    Mark, 46, lives in London, with his wife and son, five. His wife had a 12-month affair four years ago. “On the outside we had everything as a family: we own a home, she earned over £150,000, we got to travel, buy whatever we wanted — all the things that most people would kill for. And we had a great group of friends.” There was no animosity, he says, before the affair — only “the distance created by busyness — nine to five would have been a part-time job for us. It wasn’t cold-hearted distance. It wasn’t as though we’d sit next to each other and be on our phones. It was just a slowly creeping distance of juggling work and kids.”

    ReplyDelete
  28. cont'd..
    For many, marital disloyalty feels like sacrilege — and yet, somehow, it happens. In her hugely popular TED talks, Rethinking Infidelity . . . a talk for anyone who has ever loved (viewed over four million times since March last year) and Why Happy Couples Cheat (viewed nearly 1.5 million times since May), the relationship therapist Esther Perel says that those who are unfaithful “often are people who have actually been faithful for decades but one day they cross a line they never thought they would cross”. It can’t simply be seen as an act of betrayal, she says. An affair can also be “an expression of longing and loss . . . a yearning for an emotional connection, for novelty, for freedom, for autonomy, for sexual intensity, a wish to recapture lost parts of ourselves or an attempt to bring back vitality in the face of loss and tragedy”. In other words; it’s not you, it’s me.

    This resonates with Claudia, 42, married with two sons aged eight, and ten. Her short-lived affair, she says, revived the lost sense of autonomy, briefly. “We were just out of the physically demanding bit of parenting, looking after babies and toddlers. But it felt like everything I did was to serve three other people. Sex with my husband was great but still it felt like an act performed for the greater good. The sex with the other guy was unremarkable. But I just wanted something purely for me. He lived abroad and we met occasionally if I was there through work but then he got a job near us and it was as if I woke up from a dream. It was too real. I was still happy in my marriage. I ended the affair when I saw that happiness was under threat.”

    Biology may be to blame for some of this, according to Fisher. She says, “We’ve evolved three distinctly different brain systems for mating and reproduction. One is the sex drive, the second is feelings of intense romantic love, and the third is deep attachment to a long-term partner. And these three brain systems are often very well connected, but not always. “You can lie in bed at night and feel deep attachment for one partner, and then your brain can swing into feelings of wild, romantic love for somebody else, and then your brain can swing into feelings of the sex drive for people that you hardly know, in the office or social circle. These three brain systems don’t always work together and that really does enable people to love more than one person at once, to carry on a deep attachment for somebody and feel intense feelings of romantic love for someone else.”

    Some of us also have the DNA that makes affairs more likely. Fisher references a Swedish study of 552 men, looking at “restlessness and problems in long-term relationships” which suggests that infidelity could be partly genetic; wired into personality. “Scientists now say that 40 to 60 per cent of who you are comes out of your DNA,” she says. “They looked at a particular gene.” (The 334 vasopressin allele, for anyone considering a blood test.) “They found men with no copies of the gene had extremely stable marriages; nobody discussed divorce. Among those men who had one copy of the gene, they had more often discussed divorce, they had a more unstable marriage. People with two copies of the gene had the most unstable relationship.”

    ReplyDelete
  29. cont'd..
    Talking to Matthew, 35, you sense the 334 vasopressin allele in action: he has a five-year-old daughter and a “good marriage, tender and healthy”. But this is the era of opportunity: “We’re living in an age dominated by social media and apps, populated by large networks.” He had a brief relationship with a “friend of a friend” he connected with on Facebook and would consider doing so again. His belief is, “We’re not structurally made for monogamy,” and that “it’s definitely possible to love more than one person at a time”. He has no plans to quit the marriage: “If I’d wanted to leave my wife, to live a more ‘free’ life, I’d have done so years ago. We’ve always been happy, we have a satisfying sex life — but I wanted to carve out a part of my life only for me.”

    This is the first era, Perel notes, in which there’s more shame in staying after an affair, than leaving. Rather than appreciating the maturity, courage and tenacity that it takes to stay in a relationship after this trauma and trying to improve it, we imagine it shows weak character. It’s testament to how strong their relationship was, that Mark and his wife withstood the reaction within their social circle to their private drama. He says, “My wife really tried to close down, forget it, move on quickly, because the affair was over, whereas I needed to talk about it to understand. So a lot of it was coming together, moving apart. I had to get over the urge of wanting to kill somebody. The driving force for me to persist was our son.”

    He adds, “My relationship with my wife is great compared to what it was a year ago. She spent a lot of time trying to make sense of it, take responsibility. She says, ‘I was an idiot, I got it out of my system, I realise it’s not what I want’. But it’s still very raw. We as a couple now say if we’re uncomfortable with something you’ve got to speak up. We may end up fighting more, but at least we’re communicating.”

    Lack of communication was key but, mostly, the affair was not to do with Mark. He says, “My wife describes the affair as an escape. It included travel, drinking, going to clubs, effectively trying to be 18 again, and who wouldn’t want to, with a one-year-old at home, mostly lovely but occasionally a tyrant. Whether it’s a happy marriage doesn’t really matter; all of us have that longing to be the person that we were.” He adds, “My wife always had this thing of wanting to escape — to explore, go to Hong Kong, and my mistake perhaps was not taking her words for what they were.”

    Andrew G Marshall, the marital therapist and author of I Can’t Get Over My Partner’s Affair, has clients who “turn up at sports days together, their children have good grades at school — but that requires a huge amount of time and energy”. He adds, “Functional marriages where the children are showcases for how great the parents are, come at a cost.”

    You can tick all the boxes: you’re even having sex. However, says Marshall, that doesn’t always mean much. “How much joy and connection is there when the two of you touch each other? People who feel connected are generally not unfaithful.” He says, “I don’t think happy people cheat but I do think people in good relationships can be unfaithful.”

    This is because sex, even for the most emotionally literate couple, can be the Achilles heel of an otherwise strong relationship. “You can be happy,” says Marshall, “and you can have a good marriage but, because sex is so intimate, it’s where we can hide all of the unconscious material that we can’t deal with. Time and time again, I see couples who are really good friends, really good at sorting stuff out but they’ve never managed to sort sex out. Affairs are not all about sex but sex is often a large part.”

    ReplyDelete
  30. cont'd...
    For a partner, an affair is personally devastating; an almighty and destructive indictment of the relationship. Yet the fault isn’t always in the relationship — at least, not their relationship. Often, notes Marshall, the “damage was done” in childhood. If your spouse’s mother or father was unfaithful, this can have an impact: less about sex than about communication. “Happy parents give their children the message that problems can be talked about and resolved,” Marshall says.

    “Unhappy parents give children the message that problems can’t be solved — if you put your head over the parapet, it will get shot off. Instead of actually saying, ‘We haven’t had sex for three months and that’s a problem for me,’ they ‘solve’ the problem by going off and having sex with someone else.”

    The betrayal can be so shattering, so traumatic — especially if you considered your relationship loving — that initially couples assume, “it’s all a disaster, no one’s going to recover,” says Arabella Russell, a Relate counsellor. However, she says, “So often once we’ve dealt with the initial pain, most couples see that the affair happened for a reason — be it children, work, stress, responsibilities, and somehow the couple are not as connected as they were.”

    An affair can be prompted by a bereavement. “It doesn’t have to be the partner’s fault. It can be to do with one’s own personal psychological wellbeing,” says Russell. How we react to life’s transitions, “reaching 40, 50, having children, children leaving home, affect us within our relationship very differently”. These are vulnerable moments in a marriage “and if there’s a sense that relationship isn’t giving you what you need, you can begin to look elsewhere”.

    When we’re juggling the demands of work, children and relationship, adds Russell, “Every time a ball gets dropped it’s always the ball with the couple’s relationship name on it, always.” (Our partner loves us: we know he’ll understand.) “There are all these little hits along the way,” she says, “which can make two people feel isolated from each other. The minute that starts it’s a creeping freeze. The warmth begins to go, because they don’t trust that the other person wants to hear their problems. Then someone comes along and is warm, and interested and curious.”

    Mark and his wife are still together — he sounds surprised to be asked: “If there’s a strong foundation, and a tornado comes by, you can still rebuild the house on that same foundation,” he says. “However, you need to have a willing builder. And you need to put in the effort. It’s about how the person who was unfaithful can deal with it, as well as the person who was betrayed. Having that strong foundation helps but, if you don’t want to build the house, it’s never going to happen.”

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's one of the more balanced articles about infidelity I've read. Thanks so much for sharing it.

      Delete
  31. And then there are men (sometimes women too) who are just plain and simply LASCIVIOUS. These are the porn seekers, hook up artists, forever flirting and scouring for "new flesh", lewd and perverted...it shows its symptoms in the marriage bed of confused and unsuspecting wives who do eventually catch on.

    These are men who will commit adultery in their hearts and minds by juxtaposing women with you until they embolden themselves to take the next steps further. Ever feel as if there is "someone else" in the bedroom when having sex...ever feel like he is only using your BODY in response to someone else he has seen or interacts with? You have nothing to work with if you marry one of these as I did...as well as his ex wife before me.

    I thought that we were perfectly happy...we always addressed our issues. There was always a peaceful calm in our home...until it was broken from time to time by my catching him at these various things...the last of which was an EA which he was trying hard to move forward into a PA. He likes the excitement of the forbidden, the strange and variety. He spends an average of 8 hours a night playing on line Poker (thrills and chat rooms) while heavily drinking...and watching Youtube videos at work in between dealing with customers. He trades one addiction for another...but never gives up anything for long or for love. He grew up with a father who did all of this and who did not bother trying to hide it. He has been "a Christian" since his early twenties, turning to this faith as a response to the disgust he had for his father...but this belief system has not seemed to help him at all except as a "cover" for his core problem. He is 63yrs old. I wonder what his prognosis would be given the article above??

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sweetz,
      Prognosis all comes down to whether the patient is willing to make changes in his life to better the chances of healing. Without that, the prognosis is lousy.

      Delete
  32. Have never blogged before...hope that I am doing this right. After almost 35 years of marriage my husband cheated on me The OW was someone we both met while walking our dogs in the same park. We have the same breed of dog and struck up a conversation.Point being that she knew he was married because she met me. I am a health care professional and am obligated to work weekends. He said that initally their relationship was non physical because all they did was walk the dogs. He reports that this went on for over a year before they became"physical". It has been 3.5 months since DD They were "physical" for 8 months prior to DD. I asked him to leave on DD and he did. Within 24 hours he asked to come home; I made him swear on the lives of our children that he is committed to making our marriage work and he did. We are in counseling and he has done everything I asked. He has totaly cut off contact with the OW, he is very attentive, He keeps talking about all the good things he sees in our future, He shares information about the A but only when I ask. I am struggling with rage....and he seems almost defensive of his actions.I struggle with the thought that all the good times I thought we were having (in those 8 months when his A was happen) was just a smoke screen for the A. I will be having a good day and out of nowhere will come the thought"damn he realy did f##k another woman..." and the rage starts. am I normal or bat crap crazy?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anoymous February 5
      The fallout of the betrayal makes you feel bat crap crazy and from my perspective I am queen rage with no warning! So yes everything you feel is normal given what you are having to digest! I was a total mess those first few months! The therapy should help along with time but if you're reading this blog from the beginning of it to present, you will find plenty of us who are or have been where you are on the emotional roller coaster! You need to be prepared for things to get better then slip back a little and then move forward again! I'm not going to sugar coat it! It's been a very rough ride for me at times but I have learned so much from all the brave ladies I've met here! You also have to learn to be kind and gentle with yourself! Your h will have his patience tested over and over again! If my h didn't have the patience for my outrageous behavior we would not have come this far! We still have issues to work through but that's life even if there hadn't been the affair! With the tension the affair brought into our relationship we are both tested daily to get through whatever together! I'm so sorry for what you are going through and I'm sending hugs of encouragement to let you know how normal you are!

      Delete
    2. Oh my gosh, Anon! You are right where most of us are at 3.5 months! That punch in the gut that turns to murderous rage seemingly out of nowhere? I'd hazard to say we've all been there. But, if he keeps putting the work in, you will likely find that those moments (hours) become less frequent, especially if he's doing everything he can to make you feel safe and loved AND if he's working on figuring out his why and how.

      Are you in counseling?

      Delete
    3. As Elle has said here before on this site, crazy is the new normal. You have been put through one of the most traumatic things a person can go through. It's going to be a rollercoaster for a long time while you heal from this.

      Your reaction is absolutely normal. You'll swing from, "It's going to be okay," to "Why the hell am I even trying?!" in the same day.

      For the first 6 - 9 months, I swear, every minute or so a voice in my mind would say, "Hey, don't forget: your husband cheated on you!!!" and WHAM! There I was, remembering D-day when he told me what he'd done. Slowly, the time between those moments got longer, and now when that thought crosses my mind, it doesn't have the same impact it one did.

      I know that 3.5 months may feel like forever, but you're still in the very early stages of shock. Please be gentle with yourself, you are NOT crazy. You're hurting, and possibly suffering from PTSD.

      Delete
    4. Sounds normal to me! Welcome to the club! H. pinned my arms down once as I was on my way to the china cabinet for ammunition..... I figured bouncing a couple crystal glasses off his forehead would be a nice touch considering that was OW's name lol I'm glad he stopped me now. I like those glasses.

      Delete
    5. Yep, normal. But despite your husband doing all the "right" things, if he's getting defensive, it sounds as if, on some level, he's still resenting the time/energy he's having to put into helping you heal. It sounds as if he still just doesn't get just how devastating betrayal is for the partner.
      If he's not in therapy, I would insist that he begin. Without really understanding why he was willing to risk a "good" marriage for someone he didn't really want, then there's a greater chance that, while he might not cheat, he won't really have learned how to ensure it doesn't happen again.

      Delete
  33. Anon...You are a perfect example of why taking a husband back the very next day after discovering an affair does not usually work. It does not work FOR YOU...but it certainly works for HIM. As you can see, you did not have ANY time after only 24hrs to "process" the impact of what he had done...your first instincts to get him away from you were probably the best ones. You made HIM comfortable...but forgot or did not realize what this would do to YOU. Now you know. I am so sorry.

    If he is/was going to keep his word and commitment to you, then his being separated from you "would" have proven it (or not) IF he kept his word for how ever long you needed while he lived elsewhere. But you never got that opportunity because you let him back home straight away. Did you fear that he'd go straight back to the OW...or was it something else?

    This is important...HOW did you find out about the affair??? Did he confess on his own...or did you find out some other way???

    RAGE is normal...you are "processing" and that is part of it. It is like death...but worse. The rage comes from injustice from betrayal of the most intimate kind. A shattering of all that you thought was real between you.

    Please explain "he seems almost defensive of his actions". If it means what I think it does, then his being defensive means that he expects you to just "get over it" and get on with life...forget about it like he wants to do. Not a sign of a truly remorseful man. This means that he does not want to help you to process your emotional condition, any more than he knows the answers about WHY he could do what he did...how he could give himself "permission" to betray you over and over. YOU WANT ANSWERS as to WHY he could do this...and they are not forthcoming.

    Is he getting any counseling to look deep into himself as to what he "told" himself as he went down that trail? Using normal marital "issues" have NOTHING to do with his being "entitled" to destroy you. He needs to find out what is wrong with HIM.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anon...sorry to say, but making him swear on the lives of your children won't work either. I would not stake my children's lives on a man who also KNEW HE was married as well when he started this. The OW knew...but so did HE. It was his choice to keep making every decision...every step of the way to keep this thing going. He "could have" opted out of walking the dog on those weekends in that same route when he realized that he had twinges of "excitement" for meeting up with her. He does not get a pass just because the OW knew he was married...he was the one who made vows to you...the OW was just a sleazy opportunist. He is not a child victim...he did not trip and fall into a hole. He planned this and deceived you. That is why you feel rage. You are just starting to really get your mind/heart wrapped around these facts. But what is he doing to show you that he WANTS to understand how shallow, deceptive and calculating he was...how disrespectful and dismissive he was to what this could do to you? Just stating the facts of the affair (when you ask him) does nothing to help him find out crucial information about HIS own soul that could help restore both of you to some semblance of health. He is in need of intensive therapy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you all for your replies. I have been on an emotional roller coaster like you ladies have said. We are both in counseling. He is very angry at himself for what he has done. Apparently for the first couple of months of the "physical" relationship it was all sunshine and lollipops....then the OW started to make more and more demands on him. She wanted H to leave me. She demanded he proof when we were away on our family vacation. On our tablet I found a trail of photos that he sent her from our vacation. My children where in those photos and I went ballistic. She threatened to come to our house and disclose their affair..He says that he was trying to break up with her but she kept threatening him. D Day finally came when H and I were having a screaming match at each other and I swear that it was Devine intervention for I heard a little voice in my head say "Ask him about another woman..." and I did. He said yes. When I threw him out that day he went to the OW house . He spent the night there and called me the first thing in the morning begging to come home. The OW texted and called him often for the first week but he told her that it is over. He states that he is disgusted with himself for straying. Tells me he loves me and how very sorry he is for all the pain he has caused. I have seen him cry more in the past 3.5 months than in the 35 years that we have been together. Thank you all again for sharing your stories and insight. This is a site for sore teary eyes :(

      Delete
  35. HI Everyone! I came to share my story and to get advice from those who know this bitter sting all too well.
    My story is a little unique because it took place long ago, nearly 19 years ago. I am now 42 and still married to my husband the one who at age 23 made me a member of this club. (We dated through high school and married too young at 18.)
    So why am I here NOW? I keep asking myself the same things! But allow me to explain the events up to this point. It was a co-worker of his he was 23 and she was 31 and also married. We were very young still, had one child and once he turned 21 things became a little unruly in our house. He was old enough to now drink and party but had this nagging wife and kid and so it made things unpleasany. He was working with this lady and came home one day telling me an "older woman" had made a pass at him. I sarcastically (and stupidly in retrospect) asked him if he was going to "go for it" and he allowed me to believe it was a customer or something because had I known it was his co-worker things would have been different and he would have found a new job. I guess he was leaving his options open by not telling the whole story. At 31 and married I feel like she was definitely old enough to know better and she was the aggressor. But of course he was aware he was married and certainly was not raped. I guess it was flirtatious and she let him know what she was about. There was no relationship other than work and flirting that led to sex on 2 occasions at the office after hours. He told me he had to work late. 19 years ago we didn't all have cell phones or Facebook and the internet was just coming of age for most of us. So there were no dirty texts or pictures or emails to find. So if you didn't find lipstick on the collar or catch them in the act it was harder to know. Looking back older and experienced in life there were signs in how he was acting, but I guess I never suspected that to be the reason at the time because it wasn't something I though he would do. I never knew. He ended up leaving that job shortly after it happened he said and he never kept in contact. Two years later he ended up wanting to get his life right and save our marriage so he confessed everything to me - this and some other things (drug use) that he had been hiding. He was advised by people at church not to give specific details but just to confess it and ask for forgiveness. I was so happy that he wanted to change and be a great husband and father that I didn't care about the details only that he wanted me and he loved me and wanted to make our life right. My only condition was I wasn't going to have another woman in this world think she had a secret with my husband - so I demanded that he call her and tell her I knew. I wanted her to know. He didn't do it in front of me but he did it on his own and recorded the conversation on a mini cassette (lol)so I could hear it.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Continued....And I was satisfied with that for a time. But I am a researcher by nature and I was curious about her. It's human nature to want to know about the OW, am I right? Then internet came in to the picture and I would search for her and the trail went cold for a long time so I dropped it but I would later learn it was because she was married to someone else and her name had changed. I believe she is on husband #3. Her name was too common to locate her on FB so I had the ingenious idea to track down her marriage license to get her maiden name since many women on FB use this in their profile. BINGO! Found it - found her. And I wish I had not done it. I am sick and sad and have been rehashing all of this with my husband now and he is confused and doesn't understand why now and I made him tell me more details that I didn't want to know before and I wish I hadn't done that. Now all I see his her now 50 year old face in my head. She looks rough, worn out and hasn't aged well I guess but she is NOT attractive at all so I can't imagine she was then either.
    I guess it was her flirting and her desiring him that he liked. Many women are thankful when they find out an affair was just sex and not emotional, but I am not sure I agree. He could have had "just sex" at home, he was never deprived in that area. But he chose her over me. Now, if it was emotional it would make sense that she was offering something I wasn't.
    I want to send her a message so badly but I don't want to give her the satisfaction of thinking that all these years later she is still "a thing" in our lives. I refuse to give her that power over me. But yet she has had it for all this time that I have spent searching and researching and I no longer wanted to be with my husband physically (I did it, but didn't want to)and I couldn't put my finger on the fact that deep inside it was because I was unresolved with this, I thought I was just older and tired. I buried it as far as he knew but it apparently festered inside for so long.We have spent years raising our children and going back to school and finishing our degrees and we are best friends and that bad life seems so long ago - but yet like yesterday. I am angry and hurt like it just happened when I found her on social media, but it didn't. Now I am questioning why I didn't walk away then. And he can't believe I spent all these years searching for her...when he thought I had forgiven him. I have a notebook I have kept as I was searching with names and dates as I was trying to recall things I couldn't remember readily and trying to track all her down with all her surnames. I have blocked her on my Facebook so I can't look at her anymore. Hubs says she probably never thinks about it or him and just probably has a life full of regret and stupid choices. I am angry with myself for not knowing it was happening at the time, the signs were there. I am angry that I was stupid and weak and didn't leave. But yet, he is not the same person and rationally I know this - but yet I can't seem to get past it. I keep ruining dates together and our weekends by bringing it up. I accuse him of wanting other co-workers now. I feel like I am going crazy. My advice to you all is...when you say you forgive really mean it and dig deep within yourself and make sure you can live with it forever and ask all the questions you need to to heal!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nostalgic,
      Thanks for sharing your story here. You bring up some really interesting points. But I think there's something more at play here than jealousy or lack of forgiveness. And I would really urge you to seek out a counsellor who can help you work through it. I do suspect there's still some pain for what you went through so many years ago. Betrayal is devastating and it sounds like you were so busy and young that you moved past it pretty quickly, perhaps too quickly.
      But I also wonder if, at this juncture in your life, with grown kids and much of the busy days behind you and at something of a transition point in your life, if focusing on what happened so long ago is a way of avoiding thinking about what's next. I'm 51 and menopause and my body's changes and life changes can be confusing. While I wouldn't say I'm having a mid-life crisis, I would admit that mid-life often gets me thinking about where I've been, what I've done and what I want to do with the years I have left. We realize that our life isn't stretching out before us, like it was when we were 25. We're well along the path.
      It sounds as if your husband learned from his stupid mistake so many years ago and truly turned his life around. And you've been his loyal partner through all that. The OW is, at this point, a distraction from something deeper. Maybe it's time to figure out what that something deeper is.

      Delete
    2. Totally agree with you ladies on many points. Yes, I moved through this wayyy too quickly - no doubt. We had help from church members (at the time) who basically said "don't ask detailed questions, he wants to be forgiven and have a life with you - look at your role in why your marriage was where it was, etc." Not to mention it's embarrassing to be the wife who couldn't keep her husband happy at home so I think I also rushed past it for that reason too.
      Elle - you're ON POINT with this all being about where I am in this life. ALL of this happened two weeks before my 42nd birthday - I went in to some kind of tailspin and began re-thinking my whole life! Which included digging deep into the past to find out what was holding me back.
      I so wish I could figure out what my obsession with this woman is. I picture them in my head - it's totally insane because in my mind it's like it happened last week....I don't get it. Maybe you're right maybe I should do what I should have done then and seek counseling. Hubs will say I don't need it, but I don't share all of my obsession over this with him so of course he would say that....

      Delete
    3. 'Don't need it'? Based on what? These guys drive me crazy when they drop a bomb on our lives and then insist we don't "need" help to process all that pain. Seeking help is a sign of strength. It's a sign of respect for ourselves that we're not willing to keep living in limbo. We haven't gone through this before so we're flying blind. Someone who can point us out of this hell is worth every penny.

      Delete
    4. And one more thing: Why haven't you shared your obsession with your husband? He might be able to help you understand just how UNspecial she was. These women bring little to the table beyond their availability.

      Delete
  37. Hmm...do you suppose that you felt that he got away with what he had done "too easily" back then? Perhaps, years later, and after seeing so much cheating and divorce in our culture since then, it frightens you to "relax" in your marriage...especially with what is an epidemic now days?

    Being so young when all of his happened, you may have not had he same intense outlook on life/cheating that you now do being more mature...you also had an infant to think of. Is your husband displaying a marked level of discontentment in the marriage now days (other than you bringing up what he had done)?...and if so, does his past now color your perception of what he is capable of doing today?

    Are you afraid that you are not "flirty" enough to keep your husband interested in you now days? Sort of comparing yourself to how the OW could easily schmooze him...and feeling as if you fall short in some critical way?

    Are you frightened about him...or of yourself?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sweetz - you're so insightful! Yep - I do feel like he got off easy. I feel like if it was me he'd never touch me again!
      Yes, part of all this IS how young we were. Bear in mind I have been with him since I was 15 and I married him at 18. I have only had sex with him. That makes this more painful for me because I feel like something is lost now. He was with her - I have never been with anyone else and its unfair. I wish I had slept with more men. I think (but I don't know) maybe this would not have had such a profound effect for me if we both had a vast amount of sexual partners in our pasts? Not saying cheating would be easier, it NEVER would be easier- just that I wouldn't feel like I gave up so much for him. I also think that it made him more vulnerable to the older "experienced" woman.
      I held a lot of resentment over the years, so yes, as I am going through this I did feel I was not flirty or assertive with him to keep him interested. I was raising kids and working and getting an accounting degree all at the same time and had a resentful heart. Getting all of this out in the open has totally made me more sexual and sexually attracted to him (weird, right??)that part of this we have both been enjoying.
      He has NO discontentment in the marriage. 6 months ago he would have said he wants a wife that wants him (because I had no desire for sex, I just did it for him)but that is no longer an issue, hope it stays this way. He is completely in love with me. He says it EVERY DAY. I take care of myself, I don't look my age and he is very physically attracted to me...no issue there. Our only arguments now are when I bring HER up. And I guess I feel like I am thinking about it so rather than let it fester in my heart like before I will tell him instead. He doesn't want to go there but would rather pretend it didn't happen. And I don't know if she was always as unattractive as she is now, but frankly I think he's a bit embarrassed that I know now what she looks like. Before I found her on social media - she was kind of a just a figment in my imagination without a face. Seeing her as a person has made it wayyy worse. Looking at her face and imagining her doing certain things...UGH! And thinking of how this heinous woman was worth risking everything to him at that time. Sickens me.

      Delete
    2. Nostalgic, you're not alone in those feelings. My husband is the only man I've ever been with. The only man I've ever even kissed. I also feel like something was stolen from me in that way. My husband said if it would make things fair I could go sleep with someone else and he wouldn't stop me, but sheesh. Like that would fix anything.

      Delete
    3. Mine said it too...but then told me I'd have to live with the guilt like he does. That's Not the answer now, I agree it doesn't fix anything - just wish things had been different in many aspects. Sigh.

      Delete
  38. I spent a lot of time last week feeling sad. My H is being so sweet these days. I've read that overwork is a sign of depression, and that certainly seems to have been true with him. Losing his job hurt us financially, but it's given him a new lease on life.
    But I still mourn the relationship that will never be the same. I mourn that I will never again believe in people as whole-heartedly as once I did. Resentment against him and against the skank still festers, but I never talk about it, or mention triggers - it seems counter-productive and pointless.
    And I'm dealing with a new realization. It's not only that I don't trust my husband to be honest and faithful. I also don't trust him with my feelings. After the roller coaster ride he put me through in early January, I don't trust him to stay the course. I fear that if I express unhappiness or resentment, he will again become depressed, decide our situation is hopeless, and bag out. This is temporarily making me repress, but it won't last. Soon I will feel compelled to push the envelope. I need to know if my newly reconstructed marriage can withstand negativity. I need to lean against this tree and see if it is likely to break.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Phoenix
      The trust issue is still one of the parts that hurts my h! I don't have the blind trust I had before! He's working hard to regain it but it's still too raw for me. He has gotten better about letting me know when he leaves work. Before dday, he just showed up after the gym which was after work but sometimes then he skipped the gym to go by her place. Not for sex but to 'fix' things for her. That was a new boundary for me post dday! Now as far as mourning the loss of of the original relationship, we have had to refocus on what that means. Not an easy task but we're trying! We both mourned that together, the first week actually. It's not easy starting over with the same man because we're afraid of his earlier choices and still uncertain of his true feelings and intentions! I'm hopeful that time and his willingness to continue to do the hard work of rebuilding our life together will pay off in the end! I'm too old to want to start over with a new man! This one is hard enough to live with! lol! Hugs!

      Delete
    2. Phoenix, Is you husband is any sort of counselling? One of the silver linings of this hell is that we can use it to get the help we need in other areas of our lives. For instance, you can't have a healthy marriage is you don't feel safe or supported sharing your feelings with him. If you fear him getting depressed because you're feeling sad, then there's clearly a problem with emotional boundaries. He needs to be able to give you the freedom to express your feelings in an environment of support. YOU are responsible for your feelings and HE is responsible for his. If he's unable to accept responsibility for the pain he caused without getting depressed then he needs support from a professional.

      Delete
    3. Thanks, Theresa. Your words really resonate with me; my feelings are similar. It's hard not to brood on his past choices, and How can you ever ascertain his real feelings when he hid them so well before? It's part of the process, which I know is a long one. Thank for the hugs; I'm hanging in there. I'm glad your husband is willing to do the hard work of rebuilding. I hope it does pay off for you!
      Elle, unfortunately counseling is no longer an option: I was unable to work it out with the insurance. I'll make it - I have my mom and this blog to talk to, and I journal, meditate, pray, and practice music therapy. It's no cakewalk, but I've got lots of resources. The H, not so much. I worry about him. But you're right, we have to be able to express our feelings. I'm already starting to stir things up a little, letting him know when I'm sad or nervous or doubtful about something he's doing. I'm not going to repress. We've got to learn if this marriage is strong enough to handle the stress. Thank you for your advice and support!

      Delete
  39. I hate how fragile my trust still feels. Even though it's been 20 months. Even though from every piece of evidence and verification I've done, he's been honest with me since d-day.

    Yesterday I had to take our son to a speech therapy appointment. Which meant my husband would be alone in the house for an hour. Which made my imagination run wild. What if he decided to go look at porn again? (He's a recovering addict, and that was what got us into this mess.) What if I came home and found him having sex with someone in our bed? For the record, that never actually happened. But given the way he shattered my trust, I can't tell myself, "He'd never do that," the way I used to. When I used to say my husband would never cheat on me, it wasn't in a bragging way. To me, it was just fact. We had a strong marriage, we talked openly about this sort of thing, etc, etc. Now sometimes I think, if he could sneak out of the house while I was sleeping to go on a date with a woman he met online, how do I know anything about him? How can I say, "He'd never do that," about anything? He already crossed the cheating line when he joined a site to look for an affair partner. He crossed that line when he lied to my face about his porn use when he knew how I felt about it.

    He looked horrified when I told him there was a fear in my head that I'd come home to find him having sex with someone else. "I'd never do that!" Yeah, well, you also said you'd never be unfaithful at all in the first place.

    I don't want to have to be with him all the time to feel secure. I don't want to have to check his computer and phone. I don't want to have to verify. I want my innocent trust back, and I know that's gone forever. No matter how much I trust him, I will never trust him the same way again. I don't think that would be healthy for me to do so, but I still mourn that it's gone. I do believe him when he says he'll never cheat again, but I still have the fear that I'll be the fool who gave her husband a second chance only to get cheated on again.

    I hate this. I hate that I can be doing so well, but then some tiny little thing knocks me over again. He didn't even DO anything this time. It's not like he planned the appointment.

    3-5 years...gah. Some days I don't think I'll ever make it. Stupid pinball machine. I was at acceptance for a while, now I'm back to bouncing between anger, shock, and sadness. I guess all I can do is hope I'll get back to acceptance soon.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Gee
      I have also felt that need to be in his presence to know he's doing what he's saying! It drives me crazy sometimes that I have that need to feel safe when I never had that need prior to his affair! The fact is though, it changed everything in our relationship and we've had to slowly push through some tough times! I'm giving it more time and as long as he continues to be where he says he is going and we continue to communicate, I feel we will get through it all one day!
      Elle
      As an update, we met with the city attorney in the harrasment case and he suggested we leave the case pending for at least a year before he calls it to the docket since she continues to drive through our neighborhood from time to time. He thinks holding the potential for a jury trial over her head will convince her to leave us alone. He said she would be advised of this through her attorney and we are to call him if she breaks the no contact order and she would go before the judge with the potentially having to stay in jail until the case can come to docket. So we both felt much relief that we can't be forced by her to go to trial. We didn't want that from the beginning! Just wanted her to leave us alone forever! Hopefully now she has to for at least another year or two. Thanks for this blog!

      Delete
    2. Gee, that is so where I am right now. Wanting the old trust back, but we can't ever undo what was done. Will we ever have that old security back? I feel like I'll never be the same person I was. And our love story is forever marred. I don't want it to be that way. Maybe it's just too soon...
      Isn't it exhausting always to wonder? I can't see my H on his phone without a twinge of doubt.

      Delete
    3. Gee,
      I think it's crucial that you continue to speak with your husband about this. I too would have told you that my husband would NEVER cheat on me. Not bragging, just fact. And, well, we know how that turned out.
      None of us can ever predict what another person will or won't do. Hell, we can't even predict what WE will or won't do. But what we can do is deal with our feelings of post-trauma and continue to validate our feelings by sharing them with our partners. Let him know that his shock/dismay/refusal to admit that he MIGHT cheat isn't helpful. What we need to hear, over and over, is a sincere promise that he is doing everything he can too ensure he never does that again. That he has support in place (someone to call, etc.) should he ever feel tempted to go down that road. That's all we can expect and, with time, it is enough.

      Delete
  40. Praying for a little extra boost of strength today. It's the OW's birthday. My H doesn't remember but I do. I also remember that this time last year she was breaking his request to not contact him again and this is the timeframe in which their affair resumed. The full truth hadn't come out and I was still under the illusion that it was an emotional affair. Just recalling what was going on this time last year still hurts. I still alternate between hating her and pitying her. My H and I are doing well, still have some rough days but it's mainly emotions that crop up from past stuff. Today, I'm just hoping to stay in a good place... not to let my mind wander... not look her up on social media in the hopes that she's having a miserable birthday. I have kids' school Valentine's parties to attend. H has a romantic early Valentine's dinner planned for this evening. I keep telling myself to just stay in the moment.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I hope you had a wonderful day, Dandelion!

      Delete
    2. Oh! Sorry I missed this. Hope you made it through the day with ZERO thoughts of her. Stay in the moment indeed.

      Delete
  41. We celebrated anniversary #28 yesterday. It's been 17 months since dday. He has been doing everything right, everything he can to make up for what he did. He is the man I married but a million times better. I feel loved and safe. I often find myself asking him "who are you?" I love the way he loves me. So, why did I wake suddenly at 4am with the thought that I want to leave this marriage? It wasn't a dream or a nightmare, it was with absolute certainty that I want to leave. Why now when everything is so good.... after all we've done to repair our life together? Is it because I have been so positive throughout this ordeal that maybe I finally feel safe enough to actually think? I looked back through my BWC posts and I can't believe some of them came from me. Where is the anger?

    My 70+ year old boss is having an affair. It's been going on for over a year. I don't know his wife but I ache to tell her. I'll lose my job if I do. I see what he's doing and it makes me sick. Triggers...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Random thoughts
      Triggers indeed! They hit unexpectedly and make us feel like the first few minutes of learning of the mess! How we respond to them is what I'm finding very important! The anger from the beginning is being released and replaced by understanding where my h mind was and watching how hard he is working on himself... That said, I've had triggers that led to very ugly loud shouting matches that led my h to shut down and we took a step back and started again! I had a spell when I thought to just divorce him and move on by myself would be so much easier than fighting to get back what he tarnished! So I began to imagine that life alone and dating and that scared the hell out of me! The idea of a new man just doesn't appeal to me. So we discuss it that bad weekend and then we began to plan for a better together life that is getting better every day... But we too have good and not so good days! We're just going through one day at a time and celebrate when we see us making progress as a couple again! I'm sorry you are being triggered by a boss with no morals! I'm hoping for you to get through this trigger and be stronger for it having happened! Hugs!

      Delete
    2. RT,
      It's incredibly distressing to see others cheating even when we, once again, feel safe in our marriage. It undermines our trust, triggers our vulnerability and makes nothing seem certain. Leaving, of course, puts us back in the driver's seat. Nobody can hurt us if nobody is given the chance. But, of course, we also cut ourselves off from the joy of loving and being loved.
      Allow yourself to explore the idea of leaving. What appeals? What doesn't? Perhaps you do now feel as though the crisis is over and you're left looking at the new landscape. There will no doubt, however, still be feelings of loss. As great as things are, there was a high price paid for it.

      Delete
  42. I felt like that at Christmas. A prominent man in our area was divorced by his wife of FIFTY years because of his affair with a younger woman. I hated him and the OW so much. I almost wanted to meet her so I could spit on her. Wasted hours brooding about it. Transference... But it really sucks that this is up in your face at work. You can't get away from it. Ugh.
    It sounds like you're saying that you haven't really expressed and worked through your anger, and now you feel safe enough to do so. I remember feeling that way when my parents divorced...it was a year before I felt safe enough - and like they had recovered enough - for me to lash out at them. It wasn't a pleasant process, but it felt good to get it out of my system. I hope you are able to work through it in as healthy a way as possible. Hugs!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  43. Random Thoughts, I'm a little bit further along than you are, just a little, and I too have those thoughts about leaving. The important thing for me to remember is that I dont want to leave because of the affair. There are some things that are unchanged, in the both of us. Things that are ingrained in us and maybe not necessarily "wrong". I have the thoughts, sometimes for minutes or hours, and more rarely, for days, but I have them. I'm not mad anymore either, BUT i do know that I could at any moment use that affair as a weapon and clobber him with it. . The reality is the affair didn't cause all of this, the affair brought all of it to light. The "bad" things and the very very good things. So today , i'm not leaving. Last Wedensday I thought I might, but not today. The boss thing would for a fact push me over the edge.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Elle, Theresa, Phoenix and Steam....thank you. I appreciate your responses and the wisdom shared.

      Phoenix's situation has put all of this into perspective for me. I'm making this harder than it has to be and I'm going to remind myself to be grateful for what I have and for my husband's willingness to survive with me.

      Phoenix, my heart goes out to you. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you peace and strength.

      Delete
  44. Steam - good to hear your thoughts. Missed you.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Well, friends,. This is it. It's finally over. No, really this time!
    I found an old phone in his car, full of texts to her from last night. While he's been working so hard to show me he loves me, and telling me how much he regrets the affair, he has been telling her that she is "the greatest, the best, the last", and that we have not really been a couple for years.
    The thing is, friends, I don't really feel angry or sad. I probably will, but right now all I feel is incredible gratitude to God for showing me the truth. I ALMOST did not see that phone. Almost. And all I ever wanted was not to be lied to anymore. He couldn't give me that, but God did.
    And strangely, right now I feel sorry for both of them. For her, because she is a mess and because he is lying to her just like he lied to me - I caught several fibs in just a few texts. And for him, because he is a profoundly miserable human being. Nothing he does seems to make him happy, no relationship seems to satisfy him, he lies compulsively, and he despises himself. The truth is, I am so much happier than both of them. And I have the peace of knowing that this divorce is not my fault; I went above and beyond to save my marriage.
    It's going to be tough. There are going to be obstacles and problems I can't even anticipate. But in the end, I will be free of the lies and suspicions, and I can walk into the sunlight complete and whole and at peace. The same is not true of them.
    Hugs to my Warrior Friends. The Phoenix is ready to rise!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Phoenix, I'm sorry he couldn't see what was at stake. You have gone above and beyond. You can wake up each day without guilt. You are strong... it's evident from the things you've posted here. There is no doubt you will rise.
      Hugs!

      Delete
    2. Oh Phoenix,
      I'm so sorry that he just can't be the man you deserve but so glad that you know you will be absolutely fine. Of course, it will be tough but not as tough as staying with someone who continues to lie and betray. And you are strong enough to get through this. None of this is your fault.
      We're right there with you, Phoenix. Rise, rise again.

      Delete
    3. Damn, just damn. What is wrong with me? I was so clear-headed, so sure. So ready to move on with my life.
      But it was so much harder than I anticipated. He cried. He begged. He swore that he was trying to get her through a difficult time (no house, no job, no car, 4 kids). I know, they do that for the dumsels. But do they have to be such idiots about it?
      I stood firm, He cried more. I stood firm. He left for 5 minutes. He came back and cried and held me. And God help me, I started to crack. He promised me transparency, whatever I needed. Every time I reiterated that I couldn't do it, couldn't trust him, he'd just say "Then I'll have to prove it. We're going to make it." Then he'd hold me some more.
      Am I the biggest loser in the world to even consider giving this man another chance? I really do want to leave all this behind me. So why am I so conflicted about leaving him? I love him, of course, but that's not enough. I don't want to spend my life in doubts and suspicions. But he seems so sure, so determined. And I can feel myself weakening. I know, I AM a fool. There shouldn't be any coming back from this.
      Sometimes I really hate life, you know?

      Delete
    4. Well, "shit", Phoenix. Seriously, so uncouth, but that is literally the first word that came to mind when I read the first line of your post and it continued to express itself through until the end.

      I am just so sorry that you've been put in this position...but you are a strong, brave warrior and I know that you'll come out of this with your head held high and ready for the life you deserve.

      Delete
    5. You are NOT a fool. You are a woman who loves a seriously flawed man.

      The only thing you can do at this point is to give yourself time to reflect on everything, and take stock of what you want from your life and whether he can even be a part of what happy looks like for you.

      There is no rush for you to make a final decision, is there? I know you just want to be past all of this, but you need time to come to terms with what you've learned and to make sure that you are moving in a direction that leads to the best possible you.

      Delete
    6. Phoenix
      There have been times I felt very foolish in those first six months when he wouldn't be as cruel to her as she was being to me as well as my h! Do I think you are a fool? Who am I to judge anyone for a choice to try to reconcile their marriage. I'm still making my own choice to work on ours and it is the hardest thing I've ever had to do! Loving my h is easy, I never stopped loving him but his infidelity made me too aware of his short comings in the romantic department along with just how messy he is around the house. It's like I see him in a whole new way and some of it I don't like but I do see my h trying very hard to be there for me. I can't understand the emotional attachment your h seems to have for his ow. Can't he see the hell he is putting you through? Saying I'm sorry isn't the same as being sorry and showing he's sorry by never having any contact with her no matter what her crisis is! She isn't his responsibilitie! You are and he just hasn't gotten it straight in his own heart and head! Has he had therapy? I'm not sure how you can talk to him and his behavior change! He still has his head up his butt! Until he truly ends the affair and it's not over if there wa contact last night. Even if it's not including sex but just emotional support the fact is he is still having his affair and betraying you and himself! When I have one of my real bad days yes I agree I hate life! But then I remember it's not life I hate it's the dealing with the after affects of the affair that I hate! Only you can decide if the big ass is worthy of your love and he is responsible for making you believe that he is doing what it takes to prove that he's worth staying with! I'm so sorry you are still dealing with such heartbreake! I'm still in your corner and praying for you! I know how strong you are and when it feels right to make the ultimate decision stay or go, my prayer is that you find the one that is best for you! I'm sorry both you and I have such weak h! Before this, I never knew my h was such a coward and weak man! So I understand the love you still have for your h! I'm also praying he gets his head out and really looks inside himself and becomes a better man! Hugs!

      Delete
    7. 2.5 mo afte4 dday my H fell back in to weeks of texting ... talking even had sex with her again one last time. .. devastating. It was his rock bottem though and finally the fog lifted and he got his head out of his ass just as he was about to lose ot all. We still have our days not w him and ow but on finally focusing on him me and us. Do what your gut tells u ...if ur heads spinning sit idle till u can think more clearly. No right or wrong your choice your heart your life. Im thinking of u and know how badly this hurts dday was crushing new discoveries hurt too as u question everything all over ... the next right step strive to rise but know its ok to fall ... you surely will get up again weather thats w or wo him thats your call to make when u are ready ... stay in control. ... but be gentle and kind to yourself ... im 9 mo out its still hills and valleys. Wounded not broken.

      Delete
    8. Phoenix, these circumstances reminder me of an abused wife. You love him, you can see the man he could be but isn't. My first husband beat me up but came back and said he was sorry. I loved him so much that I let him come back. I did this five times. Finally after the last abuse all were physically and mental, I said enough. He then showed his true rage and tried to strangle me. I deluded him into thinks I would come back so he let go of my neck. I filed for divorce which he would not sign for quite awaile. After the divorce I felt like a dog that had been chained in a back yard for 5 years in a dog house and one bowl in the dirt. I felt free and at peace. It was very hard moving forward but I did. This was almost as hard as betrayal. Your husband is practicing abuse on you in a different form but still it is abuse. Hit you, then says sorry so you take him back. My self-esteem did not let me leave earlier, I was so beat down. Just think about it. He doesn't sound like the man you think he could be. Let go.

      Delete
  46. Phoenix don't be too hard on yourself for contemplating giving him another chance. It shows exactly what a kind hearted person you are. He obviously knows this that's why he doesn't want to let you go.
    I would advise you to gather as much info as you need to make your 'next right step''. As much as we say we wouldn't give them another chance we do, I have and I get that it erks the hell out of you because it should be a deal breaker right? Not always Phoenix were walking our own shoes here, not comfy ones at that. The next few days will be turmoil you'll find yourself back right where this started but understand you will get to a steady place again in time. You have the support here and if you need maybe a therapist for you might be helpful. Here's hoping you get through this as unscathed as you can, coming out stronger at the other side. Lots of love xxx

    ReplyDelete
  47. Phoenix! We are with you and I feel for you. You are not a fool and we all swing between emotions and decisions.

    I went through a long process of my H breaking up with the the OW and it was incredibly painful. However (as much as this totally sucked and wrong in many many ways it was clear that it was a break up and he was committed to repair our marriage. It was not an option to continue the affair).

    Through this process I did not hold my H accountable for serious boundaries. And I wish I had. I have struggled with some feelings of self respect because I allowed so many boundaries to be broken.

    If I was you, I would ask him to leave the house and allow you your own space to feel think and consider the next step. At this point protect your self and allow your self clear mind and heart to consider things without being overwhelmed by emotions and possible manipulation. Also, he likely needs to understand responsibility and accountability for his choices. A taste of an alternate reality may help you both see more clearly about how to go forward together or separately.

    I know when my H was pulling some crap I wish I had respected my own boundaries more. I know it was fear that held me back - fear that he may never come home again. I know now that if those boundaries are broken I will have the courage to demand respect.

    I know first hand how terrible it is find those messages and how strangely calm and resolved you can feel..... And then have a melt down. Take heart Phoenix, do not be afraid, you are not alone, find strength in your faith. You deserve an honest healthy and respectful marriage. We are here for you.

    Love Becky.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Phoenix, I am with Becky here, he's got to go, if only for a while. what your husband did is inexcusable. One thing to stay in touch for any reason, but to be writing texts like THAT? what the hell? Yes, get him out. If you think you can trust him or he deserves your trust that's for you to decide, but he has got to get his head out of his azz and I think out of the house. Sometimes they just dont GET it that you are DEAD SERIOUS. God, what is wrong with him? I went thru this with my ex husband (not about cheating), but it was not until I was totally serious about letting him go that he took it seriously. He came back, but it was too late. He has to know your boundaries and you have to enforce them. If he doesn't change, you cannot change him, you have got to respect your own boundaries and he has got to know they are R E A L.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks, Steam, I only just saw this. "What is wrong with him" is exactly what I've been thinking. And it may be too late for us too. The texts to her were lies, he admits it and I know it, but that doesn't make it better, just bad in a different way.
      I feel so cared about by my warrior friends. Hugs, Steam!

      Delete
  49. Thank you, Elle, Dandelion, Dana, Theresa, Wounded, Sam, and Becky. I am reading and rereading your messages, and praying for guidance. I know my BW friends are the only ones who could possibly understand this craziness.
    He claims that he was ending it. She was doing better, and he was manipulating her into breaking up with him, and that he was being dismissive of me so that she would not see me as a "target" or contact me. It's a ridiculous story, and actually somewhat believable, knowing what I do about his convoluted thinking processes. They WERE having a ridiculous emotional argument in the texts - an argument about nothing, with both of them making wild comments about eternal but impossible love. You could practically hear the violins in the background. And then he had taken the last thing she said and turned it into " goodbye". Which it was, although she clearly didn't mean it., as was evident from the 3 follow-up texts she sent. He didn't respond. He wiped the phone and gave it to me. He says she doesn't have his current phone or his email, and he has shut down fb.
    But is it true? How will I ever know? And how much, honestly, do I care? I love him, but at this point I am staying for his sake, not because I want to. I don't feel a lot of hope. He says that the last few weeks have been great - they have - and that he is back, WE are back. He is shaking off his depression and he is clear-headed. He knows what he wants, he wants me and loves me, and now that he has finally gotten this person out of our lives for good, we can move on. The problem is, I no longer know what I want. I'm not sure if we can make this work, and I'm not sure if I want to. It breaks my heart, but I just don't know.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Phoenix,
      Your next right step. That's all you need to focus on. Not forever. Not next week. Right now. I lean toward thinking you could use some time alone. I can't imagine you can hear your own voice with him promising that this time -- this time!!! -- it's really over and your life will be roses and sunshine. You need to listen to your own voice, which is probably much quieter.
      There is no right or wrong response to this...just what's right for you. Next right step. And if you stumble, no worries. Pick yourself up or come here for us to pick you up. And then...next right step.

      Delete
    2. Phoenix
      I was just as confused as you are when I was watching my h text his ow to leave us alone! Six months and I really don't know or at this point care if there were more text and or conversations! It has been his actions that have made the difference in our relationship and it's not easy every day! I realize he walks on eggshells trying not to trigger me because he knows how bad it can be! I loose my mind is all I can say! I kept asking my h why did her feelings matter more than mine and why not just make her mad. He was afraid of her showing up on our doorstep and was very sure he couldn't let that happen! Ignoring her made it worse! She was a mental wreck given that she was being forced out of his life and she believed he was really just stuck with me out of pity! I'm telling you that time frame almost drove me crazy and more than once I almost packed up and left! I told him more than once if it's her you want I'll leave! He cried at that point saying out loud why can't either one of you believe me! Well duh! I screamed back because you lied so long to both of us that now we don't know what to believe coming out of your mouth! This happened in the first weeks of dday and I began to listen and wait until I could understand it better! It's been a long uphill battle to believe he means what he says! What I'm saying is that I took my time got the whole story line out and still I have days when I think about leaving and the truth is I don't want to be a coward like him and run away from the hard work of repairing our relationship. I love him warts and all! My h isn't very good at expressing his emotions nor does he have the same desire for affection as I have. We are still working on a balance to meet both of our needs! Not easy! Time and patience from both of us is working! I'm with Steam... I know how easy it is to take the anger and use it as a weapon that crashes him to his knees! I've done that and it only leaves both of us feeling worse! For now just go slow with any decision and just know that you will have your answer when you see real change in the actions he chooses going forward! Hugs!

      Delete
    3. Oh Phoenix, I am really struggling with what to say to you. Mainly because I am in a similar boat of not knowing. My H has had numerous affairs. All short lived, all meaningless according to him.

      How do I explain how much they meant to me? He doesn't want to hear, he asks me when will we be over this? I tell him honestly, I don't know if I ever will. I tell him he is not the man I thought he was and I don't know whether I want what he really is.

      He takes this without tears or recrimination because he is starting to realise how fallen apart I am, and that we may never get back together properly.

      We cohabit because we can't afford any other way, and he works away from home so I'm getting space, but I know deep in my heart that I wouldn't be with him if we didn't have four children together. I think I am worth a good and loving relationship. I think I am worth being treated better. I am worth honesty and love.

      I don't know if my H is still in contact with the last OW. I have stopped trying to find out because it was driving me slowly mad....and I've come to realise that it doesn't actually matter. If he is, he will get caught eventually and by then, I may have made my decisions anyway.

      I am leaning towards ending our relationship, but I'm taking it slowly. Only two solid months out from Dday...baby steps.

      I'm still a yo-yo of emotions and imagine you are too. All I can give you is my love. I'm holding out on the belief that when I know...I'll know xx



      Delete
    4. Thank you for your message of love, Pioer. It was much needed.
      We also have economic issues making separation problematic. And yes, if it weren't for the kids I think we would have given up by now.
      Cheaters usually don't understand the devastation their actions will bring until they have to witness it, repeatedly. They might imagine anger, hurt, recrimination - if they bother to think it through it all - but I think they are actually pretty flabbergasted when they are faced with the pain and trauma their actions have wrought. And many of them don't want to face it.
      And what do we do with the big hole in our psyches where trust and safety used to be? But we carry on. As our BW sisters have told me, "Manas are unbeatable." I have discovered strength this year that I never knew I had.
      I wish you courage and strength and wisdom, Piper. Hugs!!!

      Delete
  50. Just wanted to share this:
    http://momastery.com/blog/2016/02/17/love-warrior-launches-today/
    It looks real and honest. I'm looking forward to reading what Glennon has to say about her experience and her healing journey.

    ~diana

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for sharing this, Diana. I ordered it and am anxious to read her story.

      Delete
  51. Hello Ladies

    I think I am numb to feeling positive emotions (happiness, joy, peace of heart, or even just relaxed). I can't remember the last time I felt positive for more than a brief moment.

    Of course I feel plenty of fear pain anxiety shame anger sorrow.... Even when I think how could I possibly register more pain and fear, I can deeply feel them over and over again. I am exhausted, I want to have some resemblance of my positive self return. I need that part of myself but it seems very difficult to find especially when I'm with my H. Does this make sense?

    It seems I either feel nothing or fear and pain.

    My love and support to all here.
    Becky.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Becky,
      A big hurdle to clear with this is often post-betrayal symptoms, which vacillate between numb and terror. If this isn't abating at all, it might be time to seek help for post-trauma. There are therapies that can help, medication that might help. It's your brain getting kinda stuck and sometimes it needs to be jolted into realizing that the trauma is, in fact, over.

      Delete
    2. Thanks. Elle.

      Yes, I think I need to talk through this in therapy.
      Oh therapy, where would I be with out you?

      Love and support to all
      Becky.

      Delete
    3. Tell me about it! Therapy has, literally, saved my life.

      Delete
  52. In my dream I'm in a restaurant and the man next to me strikes up a conversation. He seems nice, asks me if he can take me to lunch sometime. I say yes and give him my phone number. As he turns to walk away he doesn't look so nice anymore. Something about him scares me. I glance down and see my wedding ring. I remember I'm married. I begin to panic. Something has gone horribly wrong. I glance up see a group of people coming out of a private dining area...I laugh to myself when I see none other than Bill Clinton with his sleazy slimy smile walk by me (WTF?). I pay my bill and leave. When I step outside everything has changed the streets and buildings of downtown are completely different. I no longer no where I am and I don't know how to get home. I feel completely and utterly lost. I wake up sweat soaked.

    No symbolism there, huh?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. RT,
      Wow. You must wake up like you've been through the wringer.

      Delete
  53. I am trying hard to figuee out what "the next right step" is, as Elle so wisely advises. Right now, it seems to be to take it day by day. I'm throwing out at him all the things I've been holding back, and asking a lot of questions. He's talking more than he has been, and so I'm trying to feed that need for information we all have. Because anything is better than wondering. My goal is to forgive them, whether my marriage holds together or not, so that I can let go of the bitterness that has been poisoning me for 5 months. Bitterness and self-pity had their place, but I want to be done with them. I am nobody's fucking victim.
    So I am getting as many of my questions answered as possible, so that I can finally get the OW out of my life and get her hooks out of my heart. And I'm being brutally honest with him. I love him, always will, but I don't know if I can ever trust him or let him past my defenses again. So far he has accepted that, and has been adamant that he will stay the course and prove himself, but I know it's going to be tough on both of us. I don't know the right course for us, but I am hoping that time will tell. There's a dull ache in my heart, but it's nothing like the burning pain I have felt in the past. My shields are up, and my feelings are numbed. I am in self-protection mode. And I honestly don't know how long that will last.
    Theresa, your experiences definitely remind me of my own. Thank you for your insight and advice. Sisters, I pray for you what we all desperately seek: Truth.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Phoenix,
      Day by day is the way to take the rest of your life. It's the only way through not only this but anything that comes our way.

      Delete
    2. I agree 100% with Elle. Try and find one thing every day that you are thankful for...even a good cup of coffee! It sounds so silly, and I am not trying to diminish your pain, but for me living day by day and trying really, really hard to find some - any - joy has helped me x

      Delete
    3. I threw my coffee across the room this morning (not a proud or helpful thing to do)! It was good too damn it!

      I think I really need to take this advice to heart- one day at a time and appreciating small joys! I think I have fallen back into old ways of thinking about how to be, who I should be, control, who I'm not, not good enough, ect.

      I have had such a hard time lately being kind to myself and have been nailing my self with really aweful self talk. The worst most negative self talk I have ever hit myself with. I hate it, I know this narratives are not true, but I end up feeling so trapped and propelled by them that then it becomes worse and I have actions completely out of character- like throwing my coffee! Plus I am so angry that I feel so afraid and can't feel joy! Plus sometimes I think my H really has no idea the scope of emotional damage he did and I get frustrated and feel alone and very misunderstood.

      What was that advice again. One day at a time, small joy each day.

      Thank you ladies, with out this place of support and understanding I would be lost.

      Love Becky

      Delete
    4. Piper is right, Becky - and no, Piper, it does not sound silly. My coffee, my favorite candy, a good book, a hug from a daughter, a smile from a student - these things keep us going. We can't concentrate on the big stuff all the time - it burns us out. We have to cherish our small joys. It keeps us sane, gets us through the day/ Becky, I have a real history with that negative self-talk. It's awful, and it's easy to get stuck there. Try to make yourself say something good about yourself to counter those negative thoughts, like "I'm beautiful", or "I have so much strength", or "Phoenix thinks I am awesome." We are under so much emotional strain right now, and no, they don't understand. They didn't just "screw up", they fundamentally changed our view of them, ourselves, and marriage. They have shaken us to the core. Like Elle has told me, we've got to deal with our feelings at our own pace. We can't be rushed.
      So....did you hit anything (or anyone) interesting with the coffee cup??

      Delete
    5. Thank you Phoenix. I have had a difficult few weeks. one day at a time and at our own pace such good advice. Although, I have such a hard time it.

      I think you're awesome too! All my BWC sister are awesome. Steams post below really rang true for me too - being able to talk about things and share is so huge!!! I have not shared about the affair with anyone... God only knows what people thought in the first 3 months...

      Thank you all and love and support to everyone, we are not alone.

      Becky.

      Delete
    6. Oh, wow, Phoenix! "They fundamentally changed our view of them, ourselves, and our marriage." Absolutely. I think this is part of where I am having a really hard time. All of the things I truly felt that my husband valued in me got pushed aside for someone who was none of those things. The struggle comes in realizing that it was never really about her. I know this. I've said this to other people. Yet, I still can't keep myself from going back to it. I don't want to be anything that she was, but I continue to let my thoughts about her take me down a path where I convince myself that I wasn't worth being faithful. And from there it's a quick hop to taking something that was truly degrading and trashy and romanticizing it. Ugh.

      Delete
  54. FEELING CLEAR:
    I've posted several comments here in which I asked for help getting back on track--becoming unstuck when I found myself pulled backward.
    I'm writing to thank you all, especially Elle, for your words and guidance. Here's what meant the most to me: Elle, Dandelion, Theresa, and others told me my boundaries were loose and that when they became firm, I would see just how committed my husband actually was to continued healing and to change.
    Two wonderful things happened: he sent me a copy of yet another text from one of the ow and his response to it. When she ignored his request and continued writing, he asked me how to block her, something I'd been suggesting he do for months.
    Next, yet another ow, wrote asking him to please let her know how he was doing, in spite of his asking her not to write to him. He read the message to me and asked what I wanted him to do. Since secrecy was central to our problems, I thanked him and said I wouldn't mind if he answered her.
    He did so matter of factly, although she was the most manipulative of the four women he'd kept secret. Even this time, she said, I need to know you're all right, for reasons that must remain unknown. That sort of manipulation was characteristic of their relationship. She'd put out something like that. He would respond. (When I first discovered what had been going on and insisted they end the connection, she wrote, please don't let this end. I cannot bear the thought of your finding out that I'd died by reading my obituary.)
    This time he wrote, I shared your message with my wife and it's with her agreement that I'm answering. Then he simply wrote, I'm fine thanks. Hope you're well.
    What matters so much to me is his finally sharing. He finally understands.
    I credit everyone here with helping me to stay strong and to continue to make clear what I need, what we need, to continue rebuilding our marriage.
    These past days have brought us closer. I find that amazing.
    Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

    ReplyDelete
  55. PART ONE: Hi, Everyone, I've only posted here a few times before anonymously, but I basically stalk the website and read every post and comment religiously. I'm one year out from D-Day and feel incredibly stuck. I was seeing a therapist (my 2nd one) until November last year and quit seeing her because I didn't feel any progress from meeting to meeting. My husband and I also tried couples therapy about 3-4 months out from D-Day but I hated the therapist. She seemed clearly bent on maintaining the affair was the result of the marriage versus my husband's willful decision. Unlike many of you, my husband did not succumb to some office flirtation and while he claims he's not a sex or porn addict, he did create profile on a fetish website for the express purpose of having an affair. He felt bored. He wanted adventure. It was easier for him to go through the process of creating a secret email account and go out and date someone new rather than address the issues I've been pointing out for more than a decade. I always knew him to be selfish and immature with his emotional responses and his neglect of me and our family. However, the affair topped all prior indiscretions (two that were confronted - one prior to marriage when I found out about a secret friendship with a woman; another a suspected emotional affair blossoming with a coworker about 6 years later).

    ReplyDelete
  56. PART TWO: He vows he's ready to be a better person and wants to regain my trust. I just can't help but focus on the last 15 years of lies and selfishness and how that has ultimately brought us to this situation. Do I think I'm perfect, no. Do I admit we were having communication problems, yes. However, I did not cheat. I find it abhorrent that he did this. And, I feel stuck trying reconcile that he really is going to try to be better. This time. I feel like my life is wasted. I had gotten used to the neglect and had learned to live lonely with my daughter. She and I were a team. I leaned heavily on my friends. I tried to stay active, ran my first half-marathon just 2 months before he started his affair. He felt threatened by my ability to go after a goal (his words in hindsight). I feel mostly unchanged the last 6+ months. Empty, numb, paralyzed – and now on anti-depressants. I quit exercising, have gained weight, and feel absolutely terrible about myself. Afterall, I wasn't worth making effort - I wasn't worth taking the time to take ME out on dates, plan overnight dates with ME, or buying ME flowers. He also insulted me sexually and implied I was a man. He didn't want to married to a man... It's so hard to take his words for an value. It's so hard to believe things can be different this time. I vacillate between wanting to make this work and just giving up. Letting this go and moving on. I fantasize about living my own life my way. I feel better knowing some of you feel exactly the same way. I guess I mostly struggle with feeling that his emotional immaturity is has basically led to emotional abuse. Why should we stay with these men who are incapable of living with integrity and honesty? THEY KNEW BETTER! They just wanted to do it. There were no guns held to their heads. And, now, I'm supposed to believe this was all just a huge mistake? Give him a second chance? Really, a 4th chance - his second chance was before we were married. And, the post about boundaries... Marriage has its inherent boundaries. Monogamy is part of marriage. There needs to be no discussion of crossing boundaries. The boundary has been crossed... and recrossed. He crossed my boundaries after I found out - end it and tell me if she contacts you. He had a 1st conversation to end it that turned into facebook stalking, then he initiated letter writing, then more emails and finally a final phone call. I find out about all of this AFTER he agreed to honesty and a trip away to reestablish ourselves. I'm supposed to believe that was "affair fog." Excuse my language, but how much of this bullshit do I, "we," have to put up with? I just don't know how to move forward out of this mess. I wanted a family and that has been ruined. There is no best next step. I just keep stepping to keep moving but it's leading to nowhere.
    ~S

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. S,
      "How much bullshit do we have to put up with?" Only as much as you're willing to put up with. In other words, none. S, this is your choice. Nobody can tell you what to do with the rest of your life. He made his choice. You get to make yours. If you're miserable, get out. If you see no possibility to rebuild a marriage or if you just flat-out don't want to, you don't have to. There is no right or wrong response to betrayal. There is what YOU want.
      But I want to make something clear: Don't mistake HIS words for the truth. HIs words have absolutely no power over you -- it's what YOU are saying to yourself that has power. You need to believe that you have worth. You need to believe that are beautiful and strong. Don't let him define you. Don't let his betrayal tell you anything about yourself when it is entirely about him and his weakness.
      There is a next right step. It might still hurt...but it will be what's right for you.

      Delete
  57. I have an interesting/ unusual issue. My husband did not really have affair fog. He literally just flicked a switch and stopped all contact with the ow. No final goodbye, nothing. I sent her a shitty email telling her that she had to stop, and listed the less than complimentary things my H had told me about her. She was furious at him I think, and he was just embarrassed by being shown up...so he never replied to her again.

    I told him I don't understand this. He risked everything for this woman, I had already caught him out and he had carried on, but the minute I intervened it just...stopped.

    He never had feelings for any of his affairs. Most were alcohol infused moments of madness according to him, but they still hurt and they follow a systematic pattern - one short affair every two years.

    He hates talking about it. He hates seeing me upset and closes down if we talk to for too long. We've had some therapy but I'm not sure it is working for him...he says what he thinks the therapist needs to hear.

    One thing that popped up was he has always believed I regretted marrying him early on in our relationship. This horrified me, that he has carried this for nearly tenets years.

    We are so far away from reconciliation, so far away from even knowing what the future will bring. He wants to make plans for the next two years but I am dragging my heels because I can't make plans for an uncertain future. I think this more than anything is freaking him out as I have manifested all our lives and have visualised so much of what we have worked towards...I think he is worried to be steering alone right now.

    But I do still find joy. I am still laughing, still loving my babies. I know things could be better but they could be so much worse, and I remember this each and every day.

    Ladies. I am tired of being sad, of feeling shame and humiliation. I want him to want me like he did these other women, but then I realise how he could turn off and on, and maybe I don't want that.

    Maybe I want something better, that has withstood all the crap life can throw at you. I love him to his bones. He knows this, but he also knows that loving isn't enough, or we wouldn't be here.

    He is not a crier, he struggles with showing any emotions and always has. How can I help him with this? Recommended reading would be appreciated.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Piper,
      My husband had absolutely no problem dropping the OW. Not a moment's hesitation. She was barely human to him, she was essentially a prop, "masturbation with skin on", as I've sometimes heard it described. It was almost more abhorrent to me when I realized the depths of my husband's issues. This wasn't some devil-may-care fling, this was a systematic medicating of a deep pain that he had refused to acknowledge.
      Unfortunately, the only way out for your husband (and for all of us) is through. He needs to do the work, in 12-step parlance. To face down his demons. His insecurity is toxic. He can't continue to rely on you for comfort (or on OW). He needs to figure out how to comfort himself, to recognize his own strength, to manage his own anxiety and deal with his lack of self-worth. You can't fix this for him...and the more pressure he puts on you to commit to a future that's uncertain, the more it will trigger his insecurity and round and round you'll go. It sounds as if you're healing yourself. He needs to do the same.
      Maybe some others have some book titles to suggest. I'm not clear enough on where his insecurity comes from to suggest anything. I know Toxic Parents by Susan Forward is where a lot of people start. You might want to also Google books about why people cheat that he could read...might give him a bit more insight into his own behaviour.

      Delete
    2. Piper
      My h tried so hard to end the affair but until she went to jail his ow pursued him to the end and reached out one more time after that. By then if there ever was affair fog, by then he was just exhausted from trying to keep her away from me and himself as well. I guess I'll count that a blessing that even though he had feelings for her in the beginning, he only had pity and disgust for the way she kept contacting us. He had already come to terms with what he had done and had spent months keeping her quite but he grew tired of that and told her to do what she felt she had to do to move on and she chose to crash my world for months!! I'm stronger for it now but at the time I thought it would crush my soul! I came to the conclusion only he can change himself as all I can change is me! I'm still a work in progress! One day at a time! Hugs!

      Delete
    3. I can't tell you how many times my husband has said that he wishes anyone who is contemplating an affair could see "this". "This" is one of the mornings where I wake up at 4 a.m. and stare at the ceiling with tears streaming down my face. "This" is the conversation that comes when he wakes up to my tears. And even though it's been 10 months and he is busting his ass to help me heal, I still feel pain and wonder how he could have cared so little about me, about our family. "This" is the hurt he sees in my eyes when I talk about "her" and the knowledge that sometimes I still question my own worth. It's knowing that no matter how many times he tells me she didn't matter and that he loves ME, that there's a tiny voice inside me that tells me that I've always been second best. "This" is knowing that no matter what he does now, he can't turn the clock back and undo the things he did. "This" is his daily reality of coming to terms with the aftermath of his selfishness and working to be someone he can look at in the mirror without disgust and shame. In the really hard moments, "this" is brutal.
      The past few weeks have been tough. Not all day, every day tough and for the most part, not nearly as painful as early on. But there are still those moments where I think, "How can this still hurt like this?" I try to weather those moments and know that they aren't permanent.
      I wonder if it's just this time of year. Is it the memories of exactly what was happening last year? Is it that we're coming up on the one year mark? They're just dates but they're burned into my brain. I know that they won't kill me, but they sure are unpleasant reminders.
      On top of all this, we've been hit with some bad news. My father in law has been diagnosed with leukemia. I want to support my husband, but I'm having a hard time focusing on very much outside of my day-to-day life. It makes me feels selfish. And to add to that, his diagnosis is dredging up painful memories of my mom's cancer diagnosis. She's been gone for 12 years and I can't bring myself to talk to my father in law because it's all too familiar.
      I told my husband last week that dealing of his infidelity reminds me of being pulled under by the ocean's undertow when I was a kid. I remember being pulled under and fighting hard to get my head above water, just to get to the top so I could breathe. Afterward, I was told if this happened again not to fight the undertow, to just swim with it. And now, the advice is if you aren't strong enough to swim to just tread water or float. Is this where I'm going wrong? My therapist had told me that sometimes you just need to "be with the pain", but my nature has always been to either fight it or rush through it. Am I still fighting with acceptance or is am I slowly coming into acceptance and I just don't know it?

      Delete
    4. My experience is a lot like Elle's. The OW woman meant absolutely nothing to him. She was a random woman he met on a website that people join to find affair partners. In some ways, it was almost worse--he was willing to risk everything for a woman he cared nothing about?! He doesn't even remember her name or even what she looks like, as they met once and he freaked out as it finally hit him what he was doing. He never contacted her again, left the site, closed down the email account he'd used to join it, and that was it.

      In my case, this was because he's a porn addict, and had been since early adolescence. When porn stopped working, he took the step of trying to bring it into the real world, something he says he regrets every minute of every day.

      In some ways it was better, at least I didn't have the nightmare of an OW stalking me. She doesn't even know who I am. In some ways it was worse--how could he risk everything for someone who could have been anyone? It felt like such an insult, that he didn't care who he used, just as long as it wasn't me. I felt so mixed up, because I felt I should be grateful that at least he wasn't in love with her, and that no contact wasn't something I even had to insist on, he did it himself. But in some ways it felt worse, that he would throw me away for someone who was nothing to him. It felt like that was saying I was less than nothing to him. That he had a choice between me and a woman who was nothing, and I still lost.

      I'm mostly okay with it now. I know that he was in the throes of addiction. Not that that in any way excuses his behaviour, but at least it gives me a reason I can try to understand. It also gives us something practical we can do, to work for him to stay in recovery so this doesn't happen again.

      I don't know if my ramble helps. I hope it does.

      Hang in there. Hugs and love to you.

      Delete
    5. Thankyou for your replies. I know I will come back and read them again and again.

      Does it make it worse that it wasn't for love? I don't know the answer. A friend had her husband leave her for the love of his life...he was back in side of a month begging for forgiveness. But at least it was for something?

      Today my H asked me if I was ill. I've lost a lot of weight - I'm now a size 4 in US sizes and 5'6 in height. I barely eat and sleep is still fractious. He said he thinks I might be sick and keeping it from him. How do I explain that this is the physical fall out of his actions without sounding like I'm a martyr or crazy??

      I know he is really worried about me, but I don't think he has made the correlation between his actions and my current physical state.

      I am tired all the time. I am distant and easily zone out. But I'm still here, still feeding and loving the kids, still talking about the day to day stuff we need to.

      I think he maybe fears he has lost me, or that o have lost myself. I am so much more quiet, so less sparkly than I used to be.

      He goes away soon, to the place where he met the most recent and most damaging OW. She won't be there, she'll be 1000s of miles away, but that doesn't help me wonder if there will be someone new waiting to step into her shoes.

      I think I am having a down day, even after a beautiful walk with my kids in the woods...coming back home and realising that I won't ever feel the same about my marriage has made me sad.

      I want to write to the OW so badly, to tell her what she has done to my children and to me, but I won't feed the troll. It's so hard not to go nuts at her though.

      Delete
    6. I want to caution Piper and anyone else to be careful of the "always" and "never" thoughts. I believed them too. That I would "never" be able to look at my husband with love again. That I would "always" feel this dull ache in my heart. Feelings are not facts. They change, they shift, they ebb, they flow. All those "never" and "always" were wrong. Today, you feel sad. Today, you feel loss. Today, you feel grief. That's okay. Sit with it. But please know that tomorrow, or the next tomorrow, or the next, you'll feel differently.
      And Piper, let your husband know that what he's seeing physically represents what's happening to you emotionally. The shrinking, the receding. I remember running into someone a few months past D-Day and the first thing he said to me was "are you okay? The light has gone out of your eyes." The light is back. I'm engaged with the world again. I love my life. But it takes time. It takes healing. And your husband needs to know that it takes a LOT of time.
      Dandelion? Your post was so poignant. I too wish everyone in the world could understand "this" -- the true consequences of betrayal that we rarely see depicted. I suspect it might stop plenty of people cold. Those it didn't stop? They're lost causes.
      I'm sorry for all you're going through. And I'm sorry your father-in-law's illness is triggering painful memories of your mom's illness. My mom passed away six months after D-DAy and my loss of her got all tangled up in my grieving re. my husband's betrayal. I still have a hard time parsing out what pain belonged to which experience. Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter. It was all excruciating.

      Delete
    7. Thankyou Elle. You're right...ebb and flow. Taking the next right step...breath in and out...and sitting with the bad and clutching at the good.

      Delete
    8. Dandelion, your post resonates so strongly with me in every way!! Thank you! I am 9 months out and also often think "how can it still hurt like this".

      It has also been my nature to push away pain or rush through it, now I have no idea what I am doing. Drowning..... Sounds about right. Is this feeling of drowning in fact what it means to be present with the pain.... It all seems so overwhelming.

      Delete
    9. Dandelion, I am also so sorry about your father in laws illness. That must be very hard and you must miss your mom a lot. Thinking of you with compassion and support.

      Becky.

      Delete
    10. Piper, it was the same for me. People around me were asking if I was okay, if I needed prayer. A couple of times I took off work in the middle of the day. Feeling all that pain and having to keep it inside was awful. And I wrote a letter to the OW - yes I did - but I never sent it. And later I was glad that I didn't give her the satisfaction of knowing how brutally her actions affected me, After this last DDay, I wrote another letter - also not sent - and surprised myself with how different in nature the second letter was. Even in my disappointment and pain, I realized how much luckier I was than she. I was still angry and disgusted with her, but my primary emotion was pity. I think maybe, with God's help, I'm finally starting to let go of her. And I am so ready to let go of her.
      Elle is right - the feelings ebb and flow. Right now I feel mostly empty and sad, and sometimes joyful. Nothing like the pain of the early days. I am almost 6 months out - from the first one. Nothing stays the same. The wheel goes round....hang on. You have so much wisdom and balance for one so early in the process.
      Dandelion, I am sorry you are dealing with so many triggers right now. I am sending you hugs and prayers at this difficult time. Your husband is right: "This" is unimaginable to one who has not been through it. I hurt for you, sweetheart. I hope you find some peace.

      Delete
    11. Grief definitely manifests itself physically. I could barely eat. I am still struggling to gain back all the weight that I lost. (Ugh...if I never have to drink another weight-gain shake it will be too soon!) For the better part of a year, I dragged myself through each day. I would come home and lie on the couch and literally only get up to go to the bathroom. Sometimes it felt like an effort just to keep breathing.

      Delete
    12. Thanks, Elle, Becky and Phoenix. I feel like I have so much going on on my head and it just has to come out. You all "get it". Here we are, each of us walking our own painful path, but still helping each other. This group amazes me every day.
      As Steam posted below, the isolation is sometimes overwhelming. It's so hard when someone asks if you're okay and you just want to scream, "MY HUSBAND CHEATED ON ME! OF COURSE I'M NOT OKAY!" I have you all, for which I am so grateful, and our therapist, who I clearly need to see again soon.
      I'm in a slump... super fixated on the past and struggling to appreciate the present. I know it's not permanent. As you always remind us, Elle, this is what I feel today. I'm going to go back to writing my thoughts because just getting it on paper is therapeutic. I'm going to try to focus on the little things as someone suggested... a pretty sunrise, a song I love on the radio, my kids' laughter... Even in the midst of the pain, I do have a lot to appreciate.

      Delete
    13. Dandelion, I read your post and thought YES, that's me too. I am feeling the exact same way as you. I am so fixated on the past, I almost feel like it doesn't matter how much faith I have in my H in the future - and he is doing absolutely everything to make me have faith in him - I just can't deal with the past. How could the man I see today have to eated me and my son with such disregard. It's been 7 months and some days it still hits me like a truck and physically I feel like I have been punched. I posted last week about how I didn't know if I ever could deal with 'this' (as you perfectly described) and you wrote me a lovely response (under the 'boundaries' thread). Maybe read your response to me as a reminder that you are stronger than you know and that some days the pain hurts a little less than today. I guess it all goes back to giving it time and not being so hard on ourselves.
      I'm sorry to hear about your father in law.
      Sending you hugs.

      Delete
    14. Dandelion and Coping, I have read your posts and it is as tho you have looked into my heart directly. I deal with "this" on what seems to be an hourly basis. I am 4 months out from DDay. My H is putting in the hard work of mending what he has done...full discloser and transparency.I see him in a different light, he is not the man who had an A..he is becoming the man who wants a future with me ....
      A after almost 35 years of marriage. My rage over "this" continues but I see some hope and I feel very supported by all the warriors who post here

      Delete
  58. I am afraid my h and I are working at cross-purposes. He is endeavoring to bring us closer together, doing everything he can think of to help me feel safe. If he had been this way 2-3 months ago, we could have made some real progress, maybe. But I am too gun-shy. I tell him I love him, and I do - but emotionally I am holding him at arms length. I feel like I'm frozen. My shields are up, I am in full self-protective mode, and I can't bear to think of opening up and letting him inside again. It's not anger, although I do resent that he has brought us to this. It is sheer self-preservation. I know he is trying, and I want him to be happy - but I feel like I have to be ready to walk away if he changes his mind tomorrow, or 10 years from tomorrow. I don't dare let him in, I can't be vulnerable. I know this is counterproductive to reconciliation, but I can't help it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Phoenix,
      I think your response is perfectly rational given the roller coaster he's putting you through. I don't think reconciliation should even be on the table until you see clear and consistent efforts on his part to get to the bottom of his behaviour. Your task is to keep your head above water and, if you're emotionally up to it, discern your own wants/needs going forward. Independent of him. It's one thing to love someone, it's quite another to forgive him. He needs to show you, over time, that he's worth the second (third?) chance he's asking for. And you need to be strong enough emotionally by then to be able to make yourself vulnerable again should you choose to. So...for now? You focus on your healing. That's it. That's your only job. He can't rush you into something you're not ready for.

      Delete
    2. Completely agree with Elle. This guy has betrayed you repeatedly. Of course you are trying to protect yourself. I would worry about you if you weren't! Don't try to rush yourself into forgiveness or reconciliation just yet. Just focus on yourself and your healing.

      Delete
  59. Just to share, I can't remember if I have mentioned Tara Brach here before. She is a psychologist and meditation teacher. I find her really great and her website has lots of talks, meditations ect... I listened to a talk today on healing trauma and found it incredibly helpful and hopeful.

    Love and support to all
    Becky.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks Becky. I hope some of the BWCs who are really struggling right now will check it out.

      Delete
  60. Dear Sisters---the isolation we have sitting with this pain I am sure adds to just how excruciating this all is. Just about the two year anniversary of d-day you might know my very young dog died. This was truly as painful as D-day for me. It was. It was sad, heartbreak, anger, disbelief, excruciating--all of it. The difference of course is, she did not plot and scheme to betray me.

    But what i was able to do was TALK about it, to anyone and everyone. Someone would ask how the holidays were (and just like two years ago they were TERRIBLE) and I could TELL them. I could say it "My holiday was awful because my dog died". Strangers, friends, acquaintances, people on planes ALL responded the same way: with GREAT compassion. Mind bending compassion. I have told the story of my dog up to last week, struggling for breath at times, to tell it when asked, and just as before, I received hugs and shared tears with a woman I hardly know. D-Day? Complete opposite. How as my holiday? I claimed I was ill (true but not from an virus) I lied about what went wrong to protect the guilty parties and myself. I did it so I did not have to face judgement of anyone who would have told me to run (as i would have told anyone before it happened to me).

    So although I cannot say that the pain of losing my dog was easier, what helped was knowing how incredible people can be, how much love and support they will give you.

    God we are so so isolated in our pain. I don't know, but walking through all those months with our teeth and our fists clenched, no wonder we shrink, we shrivel, we are short tempered and feel nuts.

    No one judged ME when my dog died. I wish I could say the same for people who might find out about the affair. That, I think is why it is so important that we are able to share our stories---this is one of the reasons this space that Elle has created is just so IMPORTANT. It might be our only outlet. Tell it ladies, tell it. We are all listening with compassion.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow Steam, that's so true. I think the loneliness I felt was almost as damaging as the betrayal. I thought I was the only person who could have felt such pain. I thought nobody else could have been going through this...or I would have known right? How could anyone survive this?
      At first I had a couple of friends I could speak with about this...and they saved my life. But then I wouldn't want to bring it up...again. Or I would sense that they were ready for me to move on. It's the reason I created this "club". There's such power in having a space where we can unload our pain, laugh about our homicidal rages, and understand that we're all doing the best we can under incredibly tough circumstances. Steam is right...we are listening. And talking. And listening.

      Delete
    2. Steam, you are so right and thank you for nailing it on the head. I never felt so supported yet lonely. Everyone in my life knows of my husband's affair as he left prior to me finding out. Now through his own counselling he and I know he was close to a nervous breakdown over what he had done, hence leaving. We are taking each day at a time and he is doing everything to reconcile, I am still figuring out if I can live with the past to build a new future. However, the loneliness really smacked me in the face this weekend. My friend bumped into my husband and ignored him. I do understand why, but it still felt awful. When I found out, I immediately burst into tears which shocked me, but it's a horrible situation when I know how hard he is trying and that I have decided to try with him. I understand her feelings though and don't expect her for their first encounter to have a normal conversation but a simple hello would have made me feel ok I guess, but that's not up to me. It just reminded me of the uphill battle I face, not just with my husband. For the majority of my friends it's so black and white, they cannot understand why I've not started divorce proceedings and are suggesting single male friends they have! Luckily I have one friend who understands (not through experience but just through being understanding) that it's very grey, no-one can truly say what they would do in this situation unless they are in it and that what happens in my marriage simply isn't for her to judge or have an opinion on as whilst it was made very public initially, it's now private. I cried a lot this weekend as it made me realise how lonely I feel despite having friends and family who are there at the drop of a hat. I am so thankful for all of ladies being here and voicing exactly how I feel. No-one else understands.

      Delete
    3. Steam, my 3rd time posting as the previous 2 disappeared, so just to briefly say thanks for your post it really struck a chord. I have been feeling so alone. I have lots of friends and family supporting me but no-one can relate to me. For most people (luckily not my parents who have been my rock), it's very black & white so they can't fathom why I would even consider reconciliation. I am going away with my H and son this weekend and some friends have ignored me telling them I am...I guess because they think I'm making a mistake having a weekend away and my husband is being let off easily (even tho we are still separated - it's been 7 months). I understand their loyalty to me and that they don't want to see me in pain but It's just a reminder of the uphill struggle I have not only with my H but everyone else in my life. It's really tough as we all know - it's very grey, far from black and white...but unless you've been here, you can't see that I guess. Thank god for all you ladies who understand.

      Delete
  61. I am having a set back today. I was going through some old documents and realised I had accidentally pinpointed the exact date that my H met one of his AP. They met on a train, a train that I was going to take with him until the last minute.

    It was just before our son's first birthday. I realised that he now spent the night with her on the day of our sons birthday...he told me it was a meet up with a friend who was only in the country for a few days, and I stupidly supported him going - the friend was a good one. I don't even know now whether the friend was in the country at all. I do know that he missed a special occasion for sex with a stranger. He slept with her only once, but knowing what he chose all those years ago (we are talking seven years) has made me feel very at sea.

    It feels like all my memories are wrong now, and I wonder when will I stop joining the dots? I wasn't expecting to make this discovery.

    I told my husband and he didn't say anything. I think he is worried it will take me back down the rabbit hole. Maybe it will.

    It feels so hard just now. I'm doing the work, I'm focussing my energy into positive, constructive things but I wish it wasn't so hard.

    Am I a fool for choosing to stay with a man who has treated me and his children with so little regard?

    I feel sorry for him, as he has to live with himself. Some days I think he finds this hard, other days I think he pretends he didn't do anything, and he tries hard not to think about it too much.

    I have a good friend who I talk to and she said "He has a mountain to climb, and so do you...but at the moment you've got the right equipment and he's standing shivering in shorts and a T-shirt". Kind of liked this analogy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Piper
      My h ow reached out to him on our sons birthday with her last crisis...that was a very painful and triggering day for me! However, with a lot of patience, my h was able to get me through it and also through the holidays. I'm so close to being just like you always wondering if I'm a fool for all of my efforts! The fact is i I love the old man and I refuse to let that woman and anything that was her special dates or memories will taint the ones that I know rightfully belong to me! I reclaimed all of them and she doesn't own any of the good ones ever again! Focusing on now and our future is the only way I see for us to remain a married couple and that is our goal! Hugs for your still raw and current pain!

      Delete
    2. Piper
      I feel your pain so close to the pain I felt as I pieced together the time line of my h affair! I remember thinking how fake all the experiences we were sharing during that time must have been, but the truth is that his affair was the fake life and he came home to me and the grandkids for reality from the nightmare he was living with his ow. It has literally taken me months to figure out how he was able to live with himself during the time he was having the affair. More truth I found out from talking about it with him was it wasn't easy and he lied to her way more than he did to me during the last year he was 'keeping' her quite about the affair. I had to say to him that no knowledge of his lies to her didn't make me feel better at all. I found this becomes too painful for either of us to discuss so I have found that when I have something that I know would be too painful to discuss out loud, I can send him a text pouring out how I feel and give him insight into how to help me through the hard times. We have been doing this for about a year now and both of us go back and read what we send to each other! My h says he gets so much more understanding of the damage done and how to make the changes needed to move us forward. We are avoiders of confrontation. So being cowards we have found this the easier way to move past triggers for me and it sounds as if the knowledge you gained was a major trigger! Hugs for what you are going through and prayers for you to make it through this!

      Delete
  62. Part of the weirdness of all this is the ambiguity we feel towards our husbands. One minutes furious, the next minute consumed with pity, because they have to live with themselves.
    We know what you mean, Piper - you start rewriting you history in the light of your new knowledge. You feel like nothing is what you thought it was, and that's a very scary place. You look back at pictures, cards, etc. and wonder what he what really thinking, what was really going on while you thought you were a family.. My h talked to the OW for almost 2 hours on my last birthday. There was a restaurant I couldn't bear to visit for a while because he and I had had a wonderful date there, and I couldn't bear to think of the falsity of it. So many of our good memories seemed tarnished.
    The truth is probably that most of the good times were real, and he was compartmentalizing. For me, it got better. It helped to share memories with him and to learn that yes, he DID think our last family vacation was wonderful, and our last anniversary WAS special. The sting eases, but it is still there. I still feel bitter. But I am only five months out, and I'm stil not sure we can make this work at all.
    Hugs to you, Piper. I'm so glad you have someone to talk to; that is a lifesaver. You are so strong, so positive. We understand, we all know how incredibly difficult this is.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Piper- I'm so sorry you had to learn such an awful detail. I mean the fact that you weren't even looking to learn anything just makes it even worse because you're not even prepared to receive a potential blow- and that is an awful thing to connect together!

    My husband started his affair 4 days before our daughters birthday. While I was busy planning her party, buying things, and setting up he was barely present. It was her first party since moving to our new home. Her first party with new friends. The first celebration we were having in our home and his head is wrapped up in the ow.

    It makes me so sad. I feel like I may never get to a day where her birthday doesn't remind me of how selfish he was. He says he wasn't even thinking about all those things, that his mind just cared about sex, flattery, and attention. He is sick and sorry over how lost he was.

    I mean writing it makes me so sick because these are our babies- how could our husbands not be capable of thinking about them. It sucks but I want you to know I get it and you're not alone in feeling this way.

    The first time my husband spent the night with the ow in a hotel room he never even called me. He came home the next day and told me had drunk too much with his coworkers and was scared to drive so he slept in a hotel and didn't call because he thought I would be angry.

    Clueless me, told him he did the right thing and thanked him for thinking of his safety. if we really only knew the truth of our husbands actions but they didn't give it, so we were kind, gracious supportive. The best things about us our husbands manipulated and used to their advantage. That makes them inferior not us.

    It's so hard not to be heart broken over al this, especially for our children, but I remind myself that my kiddos have an amazing mom in me and the same is true for your children. I bet your son still had an amazing first birthday because you made sure he did, just like my little girl had a great birthday that year.

    I think all of that just speaks to how on point your friend's anology truly is.Big hugs to you!

    ReplyDelete
  64. Dear God in heaven!
    The crazy ow sent my h a text last night when he was out of town asking for a meeting for drinks and to clear the air! Omg!
    No hard feelings she writes? Wtf? She's been to jail and is subject to going back for this! My h waiting till tomorrow to call the solicitor and in the meantime I'm sitting here shaking and giving my h hell again! How on earth do I get through the night knowing she's back to stalking us again?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow Theresa. I think you call the lawyers, sit back and watch her self-destruct. She's hell-bent on destroying herself it seems.

      Delete
    2. Elle
      That's exactly what we are doing but the shaking is still in me today. The wheels of law rolls so slowly! I was so close to a major meltdown last night and I had to ask questions about it all over again because like a dumbass, I'm trying to understand her psychosis! One year ago we were sitting together waiting on her to be picked up for jail. Once that happened, we breathed a sigh of relief that finally it's over and we can begin to recover from the constant barrage of her intrusive text drive bys, ect... I'm tired of getting us to a better place only to have her back again! I told my h that she needs a mental cell rather than just a jail cell! I'm slowly calming myself and if I didn't have this place to vent, I would be the one needing a padded room! When I grabbed my phone and started typing last night, h panicked because he thought I had his phone and sending a reply! I did that in the beginning trying to make her angry enough to leave us alone! Dear God all it did was make her more desperate to meet up and see the truth in his eyes! I'm just so tired of this crazy bitch going and coming as if nothing has happened in the past year that the two of them can't overcome together! My poor h wants nothing more to do with her has told so and nothing changes! This is why I preach to the new ladies to never contact the ow! You never know which ones are batshit crazy! Thanks for being here!

      Delete

LinkWithin

Related Posts with Thumbnails