Feeling Stuck: Part 12 (FULL. PLEASE POST IN PART 13)

There's a whole lotta stuck...but it helps to share. We'll do our best to "un-stuck" you:

195 comments:

  1. Me again. So my husband and I came to an agreement that he would not contact any of the women he'd been involved with. We had a somewhat protracted D-day, in that it took my constant detective work to get to the bottom of what was going on in the first place. He'd only admit what he had to admit when confronted.
    It has been about a year since we've settled into healing our marriage. I've accepted his limitations and tried to find myself and meet my own needs while trusting that he was keeping our agreement.
    But these past couple of weeks, I suspected something was up, especially when he asked our son: "If I delete something on my phone, does that mean it's deleted on all my devices"?
    Alarm bells went off in my head. I looked at our phone records and saw that one of his women texted him, asking every which way for a meeting: Happy Birthday; I'm going to South Africa and need your advice; my husband's going to Cuba how was it when you went? A love poem; can we have coffee; can we have lunch? Happy New Year.
    I read his responses. They were terse. He thanked her for her birthday and new year wishes. He told her it wasn't possible to meet. He shared his view of Cuba.
    Technically, he is not keeping our agreement. No contact of any sort. But he is telling her he cannot meet her.
    But I wonder if he's actually finding a way to meet her as he had done in the past when he figured out that I could read his mail and see his cell phone records but not our home landline records.
    His emails would then say: Call me at home. I should be able to talk when she leaves at such and such a time. Or, I'm leaving now. Meet you at . . . .
    I want to confront him but know that will be painful for both of us AND it will help him to go underground if I let him know I've seen the texts.
    Am I crazy to watch and wait? To hold on to the mistrust that's come creeping back?
    I AM STUCK. We're not young. I'm going to be 67 next month. He's 74. We're both in great shape so could have many years ahead, I suppose.
    Each time I think we're fine I discover we're not fine. Each time I suspect something, I go down a rabbit hole that causes me a great deal of pain. I'm spending a lot of money to sustain myself through therapy and sports. I'm developing work I set aside for years.
    But I am stuck.

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    1. Lynn
      I had moments like yours as far as trust when we were in the beginning trying to get the ow to stop contact. I remember screaming at my h why do her feelings mean more than mine. I felt like he was afraid to be terse enough with her but the truth was he had become afraid of her as she began to threaten us if he did not meet up with her! Was driving both of us nuts not to mention how much it caused me to distrust my h and his true commitment to us. First you do need to know if he's been in contact with her. If the answer is yes then you also need to see the content of the texts or what ever. Once my h was completely open and showed them to me, once he understood that trying to spare me more pain led to greater pain, then we decided together how to respond and in the end he had to file charges for her to finally leave us alone. I'm still working on the trust part as that was shattered. I do trust that he wants nothing to do with that ow ever! She almost drove him nuts and I feel certain she means nothing but regret for him now. Do I trust him not to cheat in the future, no but I didn't have that in the past even though I 'trusted' him to be faithful. I know how hard confrontation is but if he's really trying hard and is committed to you only, he will swallow his pride and show you everything she tries to continue contact and then together you decide how to move forward. Tough road ahead but if it makes you feel better he should be willing to do anything it takes for as long as it takes to give you your sense of security back! Hugs and prayers for your pain!

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    2. Lynn,
      I'm with Theresa. No contact is no contact. None. Nothing. Zero. If she contacts him, he needs to tell you and then delete the message in front of you. End of story.
      That he is still in ANY contact and not telling you is a red flag. Not the he's necessarily cheating but that he hasn't quite figured out that there needs to be TOTAL transparency. There are no "little" lies.
      I'm sure he's afraid of your reaction. But, again, using deception to avoid negative feelings or outcomes is dangerous. It's what gets so many people into trouble. He needs to learn that the ONLY way through this is honesty with you. Yes, you'll be annoyed. But better that you be annoyed that she's still contacting him then annoyed and lawyered up because he's responding to her contact.
      No contact. End of story. If he can't do it, then there's the door.

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    3. Lynn,
      Skip the shame. You've nothing to feel ashamed of. When we know better, we do better.
      Ask yourself what you're afraid of. Does he use anger to get you to back down? Does he shift blame to confuse you? What are your fears? Being alone? Being vulnerable?
      If you don't have a therapist, Lynn, I think you should find one who can help you learn to create healthy boundaries that protect you. No wife should be afraid of calling out a husband's lack of respect and honesty. YOU should be the angry one.
      As for misery and despair, no feelings last forever. Not the good ones or the bad ones. It's all a journey.

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    4. Lynn
      I know that rage you feel and I know that fear you feel of your own rage. Getting my self control back was the hardest part in dealing with my anger. I could get pissed about something trivial and blow up and use the affair to chew him up and spit him out. This was not the kind of relationship I had with my h before the affair and I don't want this to be the rest of our lives living with my PTSD and using the affair every time I was angry about anything. So I work daily to control the things I can and also I make a choice each day to realize how hard my h is working to be the man he was before the midlife crisis left him picking up broken pieces of my heart for months. Like your h it took my h to really understand what lies of any kind do to our relationship going forward! Hugs for your pain!

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    5. Thanks again, Elle, I am ashamed that my need for him led me to believe lies about who he was as a person, and of course
      I'm enraged at myself for not seeing what was before me for all those years he was maintaining a secret life with women I knew, one of whom we'd entertained and to whom he explained that I'm neurotic and jealous and that for me the fact that they felt deep affection for one another doesn't register. (I read this comment of hers as saying, I'm such a low-class idiot I can't imagine our sophisticated asexual connection, though we sometimes have been flirtatious and erotic in our messages.)
      All along it was secrets, lies and betrayal-- whether there was sex I'll never know but the level of cyber intimacy and secrecy=infidelity to me.
      Today, after reading your comments, I told him I was upset to find that one of the OW had been texting him. I said I was sad and in despair that he hadn't told me.
      His answer: this means nothing. She's always texting me meaningless junk and I never answer.
      That is a lie and I told him so. He then said his responses were so terse as to be insignificant.
      I made the point that his lie, as insignificant as he thinks it is, is precisely what happened when I first discovered his infidelity. it's what led me to behave shamefully: reading his mail, watching for signs, ugh.
      Mumbling to him self about how this is madness, he got his phone and read the texts to me. Urged me to read the messages.
      Truth is I know he has had codes for plans in the past, saying one thing in one message, crafting another one for another email address . . .
      He promised to tell her once more to stop writing because I don't like it. My response: It is YOU who shouldn't like it. It is YOU who should see what it's doing to us and what is it revealing about your own need to maintain secrets.
      I hope all of you get the gist of what I'm saying here,
      Now, because I've shared what I know, there's a cloud over our home. I feel awful. I am sad.

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    6. Thanks Theresa. The cloud hasn't lifted. Instead there's tension and the usual walking on eggs.
      I suggested he block her. Simple. End of story. He was mystified by the notion. iPhones make it possible to do that.
      We didn't have a full discussion yesterday and I know that if I don't initiate one we will not talk and soon it'll be business as usual with all of this unresolved in the unspoken swept under the rug.
      I become passive-aggressive. He becomes distant and tries to please me by doing all sorts of chores. His only way to apologize and sort of white wash the current issue.
      My psychiatrist has been away for the past three weeks. I see him Tuesday. That will help tremendously.
      Thank you so much for your words of encouragement.

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    7. Lynn,
      As Steam famously said on this site, My heartbreak, my rules. If he wants you to consider rebuilding a marriage with him, YOU get to set the rules for reconciliation. And they start with NO CONTACT. Ever. Let him know what the consequences are if he violates that. You simply cannot rebuild a marriage when one partner is still involved emotionally or otherwise with his affair partner. Doesn't work.

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  2. This post is for the ladies who like me and my h could not get the ow to leave us alone as she also just wanted to help us understand why our marriage would fail. She was so deranged that she in her mind was the one he wanted but was denying himself due to guilt. We tried texting her together with me telling her how tired we were of all her drama and him texting her NO we will not meet YOU to discuss OUR lives! These texts slowed her for a few days sometimes weeks but then out of the blue a new text or email telling him how much and what she missed about him and our address. He called the police and had the officer call her she told him she would leave us in peace but two weeks later more calls and texts. Then she threatened to meet me to give me the whole truth and face book was not the only way! My h was traveling for work during this time and we went together with print outs of her messages to file the harrasment charges. She knew the frustration she was causing as one of the messages stated one more meet up and then you can file a restraining order. The judge in our case signed it the same day but it was a couple of weeks before she was arrested. Her one night in jail and she stopped calling and texting but continued to drive slowly by our house. She broke the contact order 4 months later when her son died by hanging himself. My h sent her a text telling her that Theresa and I will pray for your family. We have not had any further contact in this last 4 months but I do see her on the street behind our house. I'm convinced she is totally out of her mind with grief both from the loss of her relationship with my h but more so by the loss of her child. I continue to pray for this sick person and my h and I continue to work on us and what we need to move into a better year. We plan to drop the charges rather than face a jury trial because we learned that she still has to maintain no contact or risk going back to jail and stay there for the full year. I hope this information helps some of you. We are in South Carolina so check your states harrasment law. Hugs it's ugly sometimes but you have to do what you have to do to be safe!

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    1. Thanks for this Theresa. I do feel sad for this woman. But, for god's sake, get a therapist, lady.

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    2. Elle
      The problem is she was an addiction therapist and just as the saying goes for doctors that can't heal themselves or their families, she could not see that she was the problem! I do pray she has at least found a grief counselor! Thanks again Elle for all you do!

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  3. Remember the self-destructive behavior I mentioned? Well, now he's lost his job. He knows it's his own fault and feels horrible about it. He is being very proactive right now, making lists of things to do around the house, apologizing, and telling me that he's going to fix this. I am praying that this will help to straighten him out, not send him further into depression. The economic repercussions for us are not going to be pretty. We have postponed his moving out at least until the weekend while we sort things through.

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    1. Unfortunately, this type of self-centred behaviour often does have repercussions beyond a violation of marriage vows. Sounds like he can view this as a chance to get his shit together and move forward or learn nothing and carry on screwing up. His choice. Your focus needs to remain on what you need to carry on -- boundaries, self-care, self-compassion.

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    2. Phoenix, I read all your post and my heart aches for you. This guy is putting you through hell on all levels. My husband lost his job 6 months after Dday. He was so busy whenever her vagina was wagging in his face, he forgot to work. Why are you worried about his depression? After what he puts you through? He is reaping the consequences of HIS actions. He sounds on the manipulative side so like Elle said the depression is on him, not you. His job loss is him, not you. His separation idea was his not you. He messed up your marriage, not you. Just make sure you aren't just a fall back position if he changes his mind again and continues to break your heart. Please think about yourself right now. Let him work through HIS mess. You can't save him so stop trying, only he can save himself. Sit back, watch, and think about you, only you.

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    3. Oh no! I'm so sorry. If this is new motivation though that would be so wonderful. The fact he feels horrible about it sounds positive?

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    4. Thank you, Elle, Lynn, Anna.
      I feel like he does love me, and I feel like he is very, very sorry. I also know that he can be manipulative, and I'm sure that I do feel like security to him right now. I am trying not to take this out on him. But I am also being very cautious about moving forward. The separation is not what I wanted to do to my kids, but at this point I really feel like I do need one. He needs to straighten himself out. I can be his friend, but I can't do it for him. And I can't live with the lies and distrust anymore. He started this train moving in the direction it's moving, and it's not going to be easy to turn around.
      Hugs to my sisters for your support.

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  4. I have posted comments a couple of times in response to Elle'I have posted comments a couple of times in response to Elle's articles on this wonderful site. I am however definitely stuck and thought it would be cathartic to tell my story. It's 4 months since D-day. My H and I have been together 5 years, married for 2.5 and we have a 2 year old son. Both my husband and I are in our early 40s.

    4 months after the birth of our son he started an affair with a 22 year old co-worker. It continued for 6 months, then she moved jobs and from the area so it ended. Then 6 months later it started again - he had a flurry of business trips to the area to which she had moved. I of course had no reason to doubt his trips.

    Within that time my H told me he wasn't happy and didn't know if he loved me anymore. Then 5 months ago he told me he really wasn't happy, definitely didn't love me and left. (But he still saw our son regularly).

    Then one month later I discovered the truth via the iPad and the 'girl' took great pleasure in calling me to tell me all the details, with no remorse, only pity for herself. He had ended the relationship a week prior to me finding out.

    His was a case of compartmentalisation and he was in shock when it all unravelled. He lived his double 'bubble' life. He wasn't in as much shock as me though and I had to carry on with life for the sake of our son.

    The affair is definitely over. She tried to contact him 3 months ago and he sent me the email he sent her to say never contact me again. Luckily she hasn't been in touch since - but there have been so many times I've wanted to contact her and get some sort of revenge - but I know ultimately it would make me feel worse - speaking to her before definitely did and as she is so young, she doesn't get it and only really had abusive words for me.

    We have been in joint therapy 2 months now and both have individual counselling. My husband is ashamed and disgusted with himself and doing everything and anything to prove himself to me and his love for me. Through counselling he is getting to the root of how he could do this but it started with him becoming a new father and not feeling wanted anymore....then a young slut strokes his ego and he didn't say no. He left because he felt that it had all got out of control and knew it was crashing down....the easy way out was to say he didn't love me as I would have to let him go. He never thought about the consequences then or when he was betraying me. Of course he never thought about anything but himself.

    We are separated still - he has been living at his parents since he left. I feel his remorse, I see his pain and I do believe I could trust him again. I believe his words of how he wants to be the husband he should have always been. He hopes more than anything we will reconcile but knows this may not happen. However I feel stuck because the damage he has done has left me doubting how I feel about him. I never knew that another person could cause me so much pain. I have never felt such pain. I have never had suicidal thoughts before this. I have been very lucky up until now and led a happy life but that is all on the floor now.

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  5. ...continued (sorry it's so long)

    I don't know if the damage is too much for me to start over with him. But I don't know if I have put out too many barriers up to even allow me to feel if I miss him or even what I feel at all. I think as I was forced to start a new life, in our family home with our son, when he left, I have made this my life and shut down from him. I don't know if I have made my situation too comfortable - he is at my beck and call financially and for my son and I - and I've made myself numb to him because I wanted to stop the rollercoaster for a while and I'll have to get back on to allow him in to see how I feel about him. I have so many days where I am so angry with him and so appalled by him and the triggers are everywhere.

    Today I walked home from work in tears until I got home to my son. I am just so confused. I just don't know how I feel anymore. I don't know whether to experiment to try and establish my true feelings - start dating him again or maybe have a week with no contact to see if I do miss him (we speak everyday whether it's about our son, him asking how my day is or me sending him abusive text messages). We have spent time as a family and it's always nice but our son is a happy distraction. I am normally a very chatty person but don't even talk much around him. I think it's that I look at him some days and I'm still in shock that he did this to me.

    Like everyone else on here, I would never have dreamt he would do this and so soon after getting married and the birth of our son is an extra stab to the heart. Friends used to comment how in love me he was and what an amazing husband and father he was. Unfortunately everyone knows what he's done because he left me first rather than admitting the affair. My family guessed he had an affair before it came out. My parents are devastated as he was so close to them and they are so betrayed too. He hasn't spoken to them since and feels he should soon as he'll always be in my life because of my son whether we reconcile or not. I am expecting too much of myself after 5 months, I don't know. I feel more confused and stuck than ever.

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    1. Anonymous,
      Lynn's advice (below) is good. You're still reeling from what you've gone through. It takes time to really process it all and work through all that pain. I hope you're still in counselling to help you work through it rather than simply bury it.
      It sounds as if you've got the freedom to wait and see. Wait and see if your positive feelings for him return. Wait and see if he continues to better himself and dig deeper to understand why he did this. You might want to restrict contact with him in order to see whether you really want him out of your life (apart from contact re. your son).
      I'm so sorry for what you've gone through. It's such a blow. And I think we do ourselves a disservice to feel we have to make a decision before we're ready. Sometimes life forces our hand but it sounds as if you can take the time.

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    2. Elle
      Thank you so much for your reply. Yes I am still having my own counselling as well as our couples counselling and H has his own counselling too. I don't see an end date for any of the counselling - it's helps immensely, as does your site. You're right, I just need to give myself more time. I guess I worry about my son growing up fast and whilst it's a blessing that he is too young to understand what's happened right now (except kind of getting that daddy lives at nanny's now), I worry about him starting to understand stuff. But I guess it will be all he ever knew if we don't reconcile and if we do, he'll just be happy daddy is back in the house. I definitely don't want any disruption in his life, so time is on my side because I wouldn't want H moving back unless I was absolutely sure. I have this evening suggested to H that we from this weekend when he drops my son back, we have zero contact until 5 days later when we have joint counselling. This might be a good test for me to start trying to see how I really feel.
      Thank you again.

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  6. Dear Anonymous 12:40,
    I can't imagine a relatively new marriage and child then you receive the shock of your life and never imagined ever being betrayed. Five months is still early to make any life changing decisions or final decisions. Your husband sounds very confused and frankly immature. You will be stuck and unstuck a thousand times over. Take your time. You are in charge of the situation with support. You can afford to take your time both emotional and financial until your mind settles down. I found the best decision was no decision until I had my moments of clarity. If he truly loves you and wants you, your husband will stick with you either separate or together no matter what you throw at him. That was the true test for me and it took me a year and half to decide. I threw it all my husband but he fought for us. I was leaning towards divorce but his fortitude and willingness to do whatever forced me to see how much he changed. He was the only one fighting for our marriage, I was too busy beating him up both physical and mentally fighting to make him hurt like I was hurting and wasn't satisfied until he was in tears. You didn't make this choice, he did. Take your time to see how this unfolds. Your too comfortable situation is the support you are getting. It is not taking advantage of the circumstances. Lean on that support. It does get better with or without him. You are going to be ok.

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    1. Lynn Less Pain
      I am so grateful for your response. You are right about my H's immaturity. He has 'dug' up in his own counselling part of it was trying to cling onto his youth, not coping with being a new father. It's so hurtful as he wanted to be a father for so long. That's the other thing - it changes your whole perception of your H right? I now tell him I sometimes look at him as pathetic - pathetic to have had an affair and the pathetic state he is in now that he realises he's potentially lost everything for nothing. My respect for him has gone.
      It's of comfort to hear your story and truly know I shouldn't beat myself up for not knowing what to do or how I feel yet. What you have said has really resonated with me - I lean towards divorce more often than not these days, more than even 2 months ago, but I do already see H's willingness to change and do anything to get his family back, however long it takes. But I'll have to give it more time for me to figure it out and to see if he continues to fight for me.
      Thank you again. Yours and Elle's words have really helped me tonight.

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    2. Hello Anonymous, I just wanted to add to Lynn's words that everything you feel right now is normal. I am 2 years from d-day (with another d-day 9mths later) and that core betrayal (as you say, challenges your whole perception) still makes me consider divorce at times when I think that my perception of him will never be the same and when I feel so angry about how he could turn from us. However my husband has tried very hard to improve himself and learn (he slips up badly from time to time in not giving the support and communication needed but is committed to improving). It has made us face up to inadequacies and weakness in ourselves, personally and in the relationship.There was a fantastic comment recently here about marriage being empty till we fill it. When we get married we can be naive and think that because we want to be together we will both have each others best interests at heart and things will work out. But when times of stress arrive (including the birth of a child) personal vulnerabilities rise up and can cause a selfish focus on self by one of the parties in the marriage. That ego stroking thing with men, gosh it maddens me so much that they are so naive and amenable to the honey words of an outsider instead of the real warts and all love they have at home! In my case I'd known my husband for years and married for 15 yet there were unresolved issues in the marriage and in ourselves all along. If your husband has got the fright of his life in potentially losing you and losing the family life with his son and continues to do the work I think that there is great potential for you to build a true and properly committed relationship from here on in out of this pain. While being an awful thing to happen so early, it could, if he is seriously sorry be a way of laying down some firm guidelines for the future, a way for you both to set clear values for your marriage and what you want for your family. I think we have become so individualistic as a society that people need to really come back to see the wider impact of their decisions on others, personal happiness should not trump all and following personal fulfillment selfishly will never lead to the deep satisfaction of creating a good stable home and a positive way of life for his son (in your case). Ask him how he wants to live, what he wants for his family, what kind of a man does he want to be? I hope this helps a little and I wish you a great outcome. Enjoy those moments as a family, don't put pressure on yourself to get over this, it's a massive breach at a very vulnerable time for you with a young child. It is right to be hurt and shocked and unable to feel anything (I was the same.) In my case little glimmers came back over time and added up and much of it was to do with how my husband put so much work into the kids (we have four, 13 to 6 at the time of the affair.) I see he understands what he has done. Look out for that with your husband and take your time.

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    3. Fragments of Hope
      Thank you for your response and positivity. It is of such comfort not to feel alone and hearing from amazing ladies like you on this site, who know exactly how I feel / what I am experiencing helps so much. I cannot imagine going through this trauma with 4 children, you are one strong lady!
      I think one of the biggest challenges for me is whether I think I can accept what's happened and live with it - living with him. At the moment I can't imagine not thinking about his affair every other minute (and therefore bring it up all the time as I do now) but I know I need to give it time. Also time to see if he carries on trying as hard as he is now to be the husband he should have always been, to change and to get to the root of his issues to ensure it won't happen again - as you have mentioned, seeing how much work he puts in.
      You're right about taking pressure off myself. I think I find living in limbo tough - but in hindsight the last 5 months whilst being the worst of my life, have gone quickly. So if time and limbo ensure the best decision for me and my son, whatever that is, then so be it and I need to roll with it.
      I need to set myself up with a name on here so I don't post as anonymous - I would like to track my own progress and also give myself an identity with you lovely ladies. I'll do it as 'Coping in the U.K.'!

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  7. Elle and Theresa, Thank you so very, very much. I saw a lawyer this morning. She let me know what I'm entitled to but doesn't think he can afford two households, nor can I support myself alone even with what I would get for alimony at this point. I may go to school (which my father will pay for). I just don't know what to do. I have no marketable skills and don't want to train for something that isn't in high demand. I'm meeting a counselor tomorrow and hopefully I can touch on that with her. I haven't seen him today. He sent a Good Morning text with a smiley face. I figured out he does that when he's guilty. I also figured out he probably started back up earlier than I thought. Oh well. Thank you again!

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    1. Oh Anna. Take your time to really figure out what you want your life to look like three, four, five years from now. And then lay the groundwork. School? Look into programs. Job? Think about who might help you. One of the things a mentor once told me was to think about who my "superfans" were -- the people who really respect me and value my skills (might even be the principal at your kids' school where you volunteer or some such). And then nurture those relationships. These are people who are invested in your success because they think you SHOULD succeed. Make this all about you. Lord knows, you deserve it.

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  8. Seeking advice here:
    I know many of you have seen counselors and therapists, and have said that it is very helpful to you. So far, I have seen two therapists, one session each.
    Those of you who have received benefits from therapy, can you share with me what you think the qualities of a really good therapist are? What have you found helpful? I think the one I saw today was all right, but I'm not really sure what I'm looking for. Any insights?
    Thank you! Hugs!

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    1. Great question. I am interested to hear what people say. I've seen three so far (one in desperation to survive up in MI) So odd, never ever considered seeing one till now. All three made me feel better for awhile but I can't judge what would be a really good one. I'm going back to the first one tomorrow, I liked her best I think, she made me the most comfortable.

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    2. Phoenix -
      My H and I see a counselor together (male) and we each see one separately. Because my H and I agreed religious based counseling is not our thing - we picked middle of the road. My H is completely comfortable with ours....me, sometimes not so much. Ours is even on calling each of us out on our bullshit and does not let my H dance around or bullshit questions. I like that .... a lot. He gives us first hand experience "responses" which helps give us both insight. He is helping us learn to communicate in healthy productive ways; Which for us is VERY HARD. I retreat and my H clams up. Or I verbally attack and my H ... well, he will usually still clam up. But we are getting better.
      My individual counselor is not religious based either. She is open and approachable, and listens to me when I ramble like an idiot. She finally backed off the "trying to get me to forgive" thing (dealing with my childhood issues) and took a different approach. She pegged me perfectly - which was hard to accept at the time. She calls me on my bullshit. All of which is so helpful. She is actively treating my PTSD - and teaching me to take control of my life - healthy ways to "act" and "react". I am able to look at so many things more calmly and less personally now. I know that no matter what happens with me and my H - I will be ok.
      I am forever grateful to my counselor for saving me, from myself. I am 52 yrs old.... we are never too old to learn - nor is it ever too late.

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    3. I had my couples counsellor post on this a year or so ago. I'll see if I can find the link. Off the top of my head, I think it's important to find someone who has a real understanding of infidelity – not just an "I've read about this" understanding but experience with clients who've gone through it. You want someone who can support you as you go through the emotions but also someone who challenges you a bit when you fall into behaviours that aren't serving you. The type of counsellor that A1998 describes above sounds really good. Someone who won't indulge your own bullshit but who has enormous compassion for your pain. And someone who can give you concrete skills to help you live in a healthier way.

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    4. And...here it is: http://betrayedwivesclub.blogspot.ca/2014/02/betrayal-survival-guide-how-to-find.html

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    5. I agree with Elle. Find someone who has working with individuals and couples related to infidelity. I felt like I could tell looking at their websites. I also looked for someone who is licensed. Also therapist do have different perspectives of biases. Some are more pro marriage and others really don't support that. I did ask my therapist if he was supportive of keeping a marriage in tact if that was working, changes were being made etc.

      I feel like my therapist is great. He has seen so many individuals and couples related to infidelity and he gets it. He has helped me a lot without telling what to do or think. He has validated a lot of my feelings which is helpful. For me this is a big issue since my husband is in the mental health profession in private practice. He does not do therapy excuslivly and does not focus on infidelity but he is highly trained and sought out in our community. So he comes into all of this with his training and professional experience yet he did everything he did with that knowledge. Hard for me to believe sometimes. Also he has been amazing and sometimes I think is he faking this and just saying the right things? Yet he says he could not pull that off.

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  9. Phoenix,
    My husband and I see the same therapist, both jointly and individually. I found her through the employee assistance program where I work. While she doesn't specialize in marriage counseling or infidelity, she does work a lot with those who have experienced trauma. That has helped me a great deal. She has acknowledged from early on that this is traumatic and stressed how important it is to care for myself, work through the hurt. But honestly, the most important quality has been that I just felt at ease with her. So did my husband and from the very first meeting. I never felt like I had to hold anything back. She has circled around issues that stem from past unresolved stuff but not pushed me too hard on it. I know we will talk about it one day, but she has a sense of when to encourage the conversation and when to save it for the next time. She's compassionate but straightforward when she needs to be.
    I hope you are able to find someone who works for you.
    Hugs!

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    1. Wow, Dandelion, she sounds fabulous. I felt the same way about the woman I used to see. She was masterful at helping me open my eyes to things I didn't want to see...without blaming me in any way. It's truly a gift when we find someone able to guide us and support us.

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  10. Dandelion, that confirms what I am feeling. I think what I am missing is a sense of compassionate warmth. Both of the counselors I visited were perfectly nice, and offered some good observations, but I didn't get much of a feeling of warmth or empathy. I wondered if counselors are SUPPOSED to project that, or maybe it is better for them to remain aloof.
    They were also both men, and I wonder if I would be more comfortable with a woman.

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    1. You might want to give a woman a try. I think there's just something with which we connect -- in some people but not others. Let us know how you're doing.

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    2. Mine is a male. And he is very compassionate towards me. My husband would not go with me at first then kind of said he would if I needed that. It all came up since my husband is in the business and my therapist told me once I see him alone then he can not start couples therapy with us down the line. Which is the correct thing for him to do. I am still thinking all of that over and what it means.

      But my therapist is great and really makes me feel a ton better. He gives me the confidence to approach my husband. I have not told one person and I did not want to. My husband told me to tell who I wanted. But really there is no one I feel okay talking with this about. So my husband suggest I find a therapist. I drive a good distance since my husband is in the business in our region. It has helped me mostly having someone to share things with and get his input. I knew a lot going into this due to my husband's profession and training. And also my reading. He has suggested I should consider going to get my social work degree based on our work together and my understanding. So we will see. Still thinking about that. But I worry that will just tether me to my husband more. But I know so much I could open up my own lucrative practice after getting my degree. Sometimes I think I should start now while my husband would fund it. No matter what happens then I would have that.

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  11. We choose our therapist by who could see us as quickly as possible. We lucked out. Retrospectively, here are the guidelines I would use. 1. Experience with couple therapy. 2. Psychologist 3. Ask the therapist these question. a) Do you consider yourself to be biased toward marriage reconciliation. (my therapist told us she was marriage biased but if I made the decision to leave my H then she would help with the separation and divorce emotional process.) b) What is their opinion about marriage counseling when the H still has contact? (She told us upfront if there was contact then she would recommend someone else, she said still staying in contact does not work at all ever) c) Will you work on my problems too or just the marriage? (She told us couples would come in and say - I want to work on our marriage but I don't want to talk about my anorexia, obsessions, etc.. she would recommend another therapist).d) Do you believe in homework to have ready for the next session? (We completed communication questionnaires, she compared our core beliefs, compared what was important and we had assignments to complete bother personal and couples each week) It gets you thinking. There were times when I didn't think she knew what she was doing yes, but I stuck with her. She had to get to know me better, I can hear her say over and over - OK Lynn what is really bothering you? At my last therapy session I cried and told her, she gave me a life. I didn't really know who I was or what I wanted. I didn't know myself. I was in therapy for 2 years each week and sometimes twice a week.

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    1. Sounds like she was worth every penny. But you did the work, Lynn.

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  12. Obsessing and Ruminating:
    I've recently been reminded that my husband would rather lie than tell me the truth, so since he lied about texting, I looked at his email and saw that he'd also exchanged a couple of messages with the OW a few months ago. True, after answering her, he told her she shouldn't be writing to him since there's still "an embargo" in effect. But he doesn't know I saw those messages and since I promised myself and him that I would stop reading his mail I'm ashamed that I did. I'm also stuck with info I don't want to share with him.
    What pains me is the way I saw myself depicted in his exchanges and his unwillingness to say that HE doesn't want contact, not that if it weren't for his jealous, possessive wife he'd be happy to continue what he calls, "whimsical, playful, harmless flirtation."
    Now, I've gone back and read all the messages I uncovered and saved on my computer from 2013-2015 from the four women with whom he'd had secret--non-sexual, according to him--intimate, flirtatious and erotic exchanges. I can't stop reading and rereading. I suppose I can stop but I somehow don't want to. I'm wallowing in the pain. Am I masochistic?
    When I was in my detective phase 2013-2014, I managed to search his computer and discover he'd been conducting these secret relationships since at least 1999, so when I read a fairly recent message from one of these women who wrote a carefully crafted message to him cc:ing her husband about how my confronting her frightened her, I got angry all over again.
    She was writing to ask that my H to please have lunch with her H and stay in touch with him. It wasn't fair that I ruined their and, as a foursome, our long, carefully nurtured friendship. Her husband understands the nature of their affection for one another. Why can't I?
    I want to send copies of the messages I found to her husband so that he can judge for himself but I know I shouldn't. Just sayin' I want to.
    Is it vanity that has me wanting to correct these misperceptions? Should I be concerned about what others think?
    Going back to therapy on Tuesday. Meantime, I feel pulled way back to the beginning.
    Apologies if I'm whining and repeating myself but I feel this is a safe place. I have no friends with whom I want to share this crazy moment.

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    1. Lynn,
      The crazy thing about this situation is that YOU'RE not the crazy one. You're being asked to tolerate a crazy situation. So, no, you're not vain for wanting to make it clear that there was a secret relationship that did not include you and that you are not okay with. It makes perfect sense for you to want to make EVERYTHING open so that people can judge for themselves. If it turns out the husband is okay with this, then that's for him to decide. But for your husband and this woman to decide it for him is manipulative and deceptive.
      I personally don't see anything wrong with letting the husband see all the correspondence. Again, if it's "harmless" then there's no harm in everybody seeing everything. Everyone involved should be consenting -- including the spouses. You're clearly not consenting to this sort of secrecy. And perhaps the husband isn't either.
      I'm being a bit flip and I don't mean to be. This sort of gas lighting and blame-shifting makes me crazy. You are doing nothing more than stating that a secret relationship of any kind is a threat to your marriage and you're not okay with that. Those are your boundaries. The rule, generally, is that you shouldn't be doing/saying anything with anyone that you wouldn't do/say with your spouse standing beside you. Pretty simple.
      Lynn, you're not back at the beginning. This is all a process. And maybe part of it is you getting really clear on what you will/won't tolerate. It's hard to insist on boundaries when you haven't enforced them in the past. But this is a longtime pattern of behaviour of his that is hurtful to you and damaging to your marriage. That's the bottom line. If he doesn't care about that, then THAT is a bigger problem.
      And Lynn...this is a safe place. You're a normal woman responding to devastating betrayal. We're on your side.

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  13. As usual, Elle, I'm grateful for your response. And I don't think you're being flip. When the shit hit the fan, as they say, in 2014, my husband begged her not to tell her husband and suggested that he tell her I'm jealous and envious of her and always have been. He and she agreed that I was sadly neurotic (I may have say this in an earlier post, so sorry if I'm repeating myself.)
    He told me he hoped I hadn't planned to send her husband the messages to try to ruin her marriage just as she almost ruined mine.
    My response was that I wanted to do that but I was going to take the high road. I regret that bitterly, especially when I saw her H at a party, greeted him as i always had since my feeling was that what went on was between my husband and his wife and I had no clue what she said to him about me or my husband for that matter, he rebuffed me. It was horrible. And when I told my husband what happened he asked me why I would put my self in that position. Said he never would have done that.
    I'm embarrassed to admit these things here.
    In terms of boundaries, the only way I've managed to enforce them is by snooping and then outing him.
    Outwardly, he's trying. But outwardly he's always seemed trustworthy and above reproach all the while . . . .
    Thank you so much. I can't continue writing now but until I get myself out of this latest funk, I need to write here in this place. Thanks for being on my side.

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    1. Okay. So your husband "told me he hoped I hadn't planned to send her husband the messages to try to ruin her marriage just as she almost ruined mine." Let's get this clear. Telling him what she was doing isn't YOU ruining her marriage. It's HER ruining her marriage. All you're doing is pointing to the evidence.
      Lynn, this guy and this woman are masters at blaming other people for the mess they're making. You owe them nothing. You certainly don't have to cover for them, which is essentially what they're asking you to do under the guise of "not ruining her marriage." If they're doing nothing wrong, then her marriage won't be "ruined". If, on the other hand, her husband is as distressed by this secret relationship as you are, then SHE is the one who ruined her marriage. I suspect you've lived a long time with little clarity on boundaries and little opportunity to have your own feelings treated as valid.
      He cheated. So did she. You and the other husband are innocent bystanders in this. He deserves to know what his wife is up to in order to determine whether that's a marriage he wants to be in. That's basic respect. Hiding one's behaviour from his/her spouse is deceptive and manipulative.
      As for boundaries, "snooping" is part of the package now and it's not "snooping", it's validating that he's telling you the whole story. He needs to understand that, because of his choice to cheat that he's lost his right to privacy, at least for now. You should have access to any and all phones/computers/passwords, etc. You need to be able to check whenever you feel the need. With time -- and the assurance that you're not finding anything that gives you pause -- trust is built back up. But for him to expect you to trust him when he has revealed himself as untrustworthy is, basically, asking you to be an idiot and to deny your experience. You are not an idiot. You are giving him the chance to be a better man. It's up to him now to either take that opportunity, which includes supporting you as you heal. If that means you need to apprise the other husband of what's going on, then that's what you need and he should support that. He made his bed...

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    2. Lynn
      Has your h told you he was committed to your marriage? If he has then my first suggestion is to cut this couple out of your lives! No other friends are allowed to ever become more important than my h and me as a couple! That is my boundary and my h has supported the decision we made together! We are first and time with friends second! If this couple stays in your life nothing good will come out! I'm rooting for you to teach your h what he's doing wrong! Hugs for your pain!

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    3. Thanks, Theresa, The woman is out of our lives but her husband and my husband have remained friends. I said I didn't mind if the guys stayed friends but I was never going to be in their company again if I could help it.
      So what bothers me now that I'm pulled back to the beginning is that he, the husband, thinks he knows why we can't all be friends anymore and what he thinks is a lie concocted by his wife and my husband.
      I keep trying to tell myself I shouldn't care what he thinks. I'd convinced myself I didn't care what he thinks. When he rebuffed me for greeting him a few months ago, I realized I did care. Still, I didn't send him the documents I have. What's the point of doing that? Beyond my vanity what would be the point?
      He himself is and has always been cheater, an in his wife's face cheater.
      She told us each separately that she hoped we could save our marriage and talked about how she managed to save her own when her husband cheated. Said she knows how hurt I must feel but that she and my husband did nothing wrong and I had to understand that.
      Then I busted them for lying about the length of and depth of their so-called emotional affair.

      These people were my husband's friends long before I met him.
      Ugh!

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    4. Lynn
      They see nothing wrong with their relationship just because it had no sex. However, for you the fact that it was secretly 'their' relationship, it hurts just as bad as it would if there was sex involved. The emotional connection was what hurts me the most with my h betrayal. He just wanted different sex, but she wanted me out of 'their' relationship. The fact that your h doesn't see anything wrong in what he is doing is a big problem for you. I'm not sure how to show him how wrong that is! Hugs for your pain!

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    5. Lynn,
      I don't think your husband needs to necessarily see what's wrong with staying friends with these people (though, honestly, ugh! They sound horrible). But he does need to respect that YOU see what's wrong with staying friends with them. He made a commitment to you that needs to supersede any other commitment. He declared his loyalty to you and that is more important than loyalty to anyone else. It's really that simple. Sometimes marriage -- and the commitment we made -- demands that we do things we don't want to do. Nurse someone who's terminally ill, for instance. But we do it because that's the commitment we made and we owe this person our loyalty. You have been a faithful spouse. Even the fact that this guy would rebuff you publicly should be enough to make your husband see red (though, as you note, he created the fiction around that).
      The short of it is that your husband needs to grow up. Being an adult sometimes means doing the hard thing because it's the right thing. And cutting these toxic people out of your life (or at the very least severely limiting contact with the husband and completely cutting contact with the wife) is the right thing.

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    6. Thanks, Elle. He has remained friends with the husband but does not have any contact with the wife, who broke the no contact agreement once last year to plead with my husband to stay in touch with hers because he misses him. ( I didn't acknowledge reading this email so my husband doesn't know I saw it.)
      Cc:ing her husband she craftily let him know that I'd hurt her and scared her when I confronted her with what I knew about their so-called friendship. She applauds her husband for understanding the affection she and my husband feel for one another--can't say the same for me. I'm too stupid.
      Why her husband couldn't simply contact my husband himself if he missed him so much is a good question.
      Trying to move on from this particular memory/situation. It was a year ago.
      And you hit the nail on the head: They are toxic people, both of them. but if my husband wants to stay friends with the guy so be it. I've let it be known that I will never speak to him or them again and I will never attend functions where I might see them unless, and this is important, unless I want to be at those functions, in which case I am not going to be stopped from going where I want to go for fear of who I might see.
      I will ignore them.
      Thanks, Elle. You're terrific.

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  14. Absolutely, Lynn. What Elle said. You are NOT crazy and we ARE on your side. It seems like your husband and this woman are trying to justify themselves by putting the blame on you. If they admitted you were right, they would have to admit that what they have done is wrong, and they don't have the strength or integrity to do that. It's easier to blame you. Cheaters are masters of rationalization and manipulation. They can lie to themselves, but you know the truth. If there were really a close relationship between the 4 of you, it would include you, and they would care about your feelings. It sounds like their "friendship" excludes you and demeans you. The problem is NOT you - it is THEM.
    I'm sorry, but I also can't help getting angry on your behalf. My husband is dealing me fits right now, but at least he takes responsibility and doesn't try to blame me. He knows this whole mess is on him.
    Lynn, I know you are scared and lonely right now, with so many years of marriage in the balance. It can be so hard to rock the boat, so tempting to bite your tongue and let things go on. I am thinking of you and praying that you are able to make the right choices for yourself, whatever those choices may be.
    We hear you, and we feel your pain.

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    1. Elle and Phoenix, your words help me more than I can say. I've hated being haunted by and still obsessed with what began two years ago.
      I have a file with all the emails between him and these women. I have a folder with phone records that include nicknames I gave to each woman. I have notes with his code name for one of them, scenarios I created based on what I was reading, oy . . . .
      I haven't deleted these things. I feel as if I need them to validate what I know went on. This latest rereading and remembering has been triggered by this recent text exchange, as I said earlier.
      Anyway, yesterday I asked to see what he'd written to her to tell her to stop writing to him. He went ballistic. Accused me of ruining our movement forward by constantly bludgeoning him just when we seem to be healed. He said it was ridiculous for me to be concerned with this woman. She means nothing.
      He said he mostly ignores the messages or texts she sends but he responds periodically because he has to be polite. Was it so terrible to say Happy New Year when she wished him the same? Was it terrible to thank her for her birthday wishes? My answer was YES. We agreed you would have no contact!! Well, he says, this sort of contact is meaningless so he didn't see it as violating our agreement.
      He is not stupid so I had to work hard not to lose my shit and start screaming, which gets us nowhere and feeds his notion of me as crazy.
      He said he would think about showing me what he sent her but that I should realize this person is harmless, a little zany. She never meant much to him. I told him that I know more than he thinks I know about what she meant. I told him that I know he told her my nickname for her,"the dancer", and that she signed herself the dancer in an email she sent just a few months ago. Disgusting and painful.
      He needs to preserve his image so he puts the blame on me. With each woman he claimed he had to stop because of me.
      He changed his password a couple of days ago and refuses to be open with me. But I can't confront him about that unless I expose the fact that I had been reading his mail from time to time. (It has only just occurred to him that I was reading his messages on his phone.)
      From the start I talked about the importance of transparency. I explained that I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if he accepted transparency as essential to our healing.

      When all of this first happened, beginning in 2013, I struggled with what to do and compromised myself, I suppose, because he and I want to remain married.
      ANOTHER ASPECT OF IT ALL:
      He developed atrial fibrillation when I first confronted him and we wound up in Urgent Care. I honestly thought he was acting in order to stop me from confronting him.
      Anytime I want to talk about his cheating he says he's ill or sleepy or tired, pulls out the blood pressure machine and takes a reading, which puts me in the position of abuser.

      I've found I have to say what I have to say, ignore his anger and childish reactions. listen to him, and then try to leave the house. We didn't resolve anything yesterday, really.
      So if I ask him today what he's decided about showing me what he's written to her he will become furious.
      His way of showing me that he loves me and is no longer cheating is to have sex or pull me into planning a trip.
      I'm still a mess. I appreciate your reactions and your support. Thank you for being there.

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    2. Lynn,
      I'm sorry for what you are going through right now. It sounds to me like your H is trying desperately to be in control of this, which as a betrayed spouse hurts even more because you're trying desperately to process what happened. I have to agree with what Elle and Phoenix have said. First... No contact means no contact. He doesn't get to dictate what is meaningless. Second... Nothing you have done has been unwarranted. He chose this path and now the consequence is accountability and transparency. If the two of you agree to work on the marriage, he's got to do the work to help you heal as painful as it may be for him. And if that means you want to talk about it, he's got to talk. I think some couples talk and then mutually decide they've reached a point where discussing the details of it is no longer beneficial. But to me, it doesn't sound like he's telling you enough to help you process it.
      I think you also sound a lot stronger than you give yourself credit for being. You may feel like you compromised yourself two years ago, but you are not flying off the handle and making rash decisions now. That's a lot more than I can say for the way I handled specific instances in my case.
      Stay strong and take care of yourself.
      Hugs!

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    3. Thanks, Dandelion. You're right, I'm not flying off the handle anymore. I just hate that I thought we'd come so far and then, wham, these texts appear and I'm back to working on how to talk about it, how not to be passive-aggressive but direct, how not to worry about upsetting him and therefore poisoning the atmosphere in our home.
      (I'm being totally honest here. I know this sounds awful but this is how I feel. This is how I've operated for over 30 years, keeping the peace, catering to his needs.)
      But he will never, ever initiate a conversation about this so if I don't do it nothing happens.
      Two days ago he was going to "think about" sharing what he wrote to this woman. He hasn't said a word since. That means I have to either ask, trust that whatever he's said is fine with me, or steel myself for yet another difficult conversation.
      It also means I have to think about what I do if he says no.
      I appreciate your acknowledging my strength. Since I first discovered his secret life, I have worked hard. Confronted him and two of the women directly, gotten myself a therapist, gotten back to a project I'd abandoned long ago, deepened my friendships, etc.
      Still, I'm back here dealing with the sos--obsessing, ruminating.
      When will it end?

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    4. I know sometimes it is hard to see your own strength. From what you've written, it sounds like you are thinking very clearly. I'm impressed that you are working to change the way you respond to your husband after 30 years. That's not an easy thing to do after so long. I know I have had to change a lot of my behaviors with my husband and it's been tough but it's for the best.
      I have learned from this experience that it's not a straight line, so don't be too hard on yourself. You may take a few steps backward from time to time and that's ok. I'm almost 9 months out from the final d-day and I've had more ups and downs than I care to count. I'm much better than I was a few months ago, but I still get sad. But like I've said in other posts, the pain isn't crushing me every day like it did in the beginning. I have more up days than down days and that's what I try to focus on.
      Keep reminding yourself how strong you are, but be kind to yourself when you need a break from being strong. I hope your husband reaches a point where he can give you the things you need to heal.
      Hugs!

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    5. Lynn, I am so sorry your are dealing with this. I know when I was in this phase and stressed out it was so hard. I got really good at finding information actually. What I was finding was stuff from years ago but still things he had not disclosed to me. He said he forgot. Whatever. I did not believe that. He just told me what he thought was the worst stuff that he could admit to.

      For me we have talked a lot. One ow contacted him early on after d day. He replied to leave him alone and to stop. She has not contacted him again. I did not see her or his message. So we talked and any device or account is open for me to see. I have all his passwords. Even his credit card, bank account etc. I still have asked him that I am concerned about them contacting him. I have a concern that as time goes on he will see a quick reply as polite and not tell me for fear of rocking the boat. Also he is in mental health in private practice so I never can see his work computer, work calls etc all confidential. And he could have a burner phone or a million other ways with technology to keep contact. I have told him I want the passwords but I am not a private detective and I cannot live my life that way, it was making me crazy and stressed. If I have to do that then we are done it is not worth it. We have had a lot of discussion related to this. so far since early on he says he has shown me everything. Our agreement is every text, email, conversation, interaction with anyone should be as if I am standing next to him. And how would I see it. He knows he has one shot at this. He has come home from golf play days to tell me what inappropriate things a woman said to him and I know her well. He did at first say he almost did not tell me. But I was calm with him and told him that is what I need to rebuild our marriage. I need him to be honest and no secrets. I have told him he cannot hurt me more if he is upfront with. Thinking of you!

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  15. Ok now I need help on how to set myself up with a name - without using blogger or a url.....tips please? I'm sure it's simple but I seem to be having trouble!!

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    1. I think you can click Name/URL on the Reply As drop down and enter only a name. But you may have to do that step every time you post.

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  16. Anon, using the dropdown menu under "comment as" use name/url. make up a name. you dont need to enter a URL. there ya go.
    Complete privacy.
    Lynn-your husband, the other hussy. GADS what a pair. There is a chance that her husband is in deep denial or is defensive. I have been in positions (non affair related) where I defended the bejezus out of someone against my better judgement--because having someone in MY life who might actually do X, Y or Z was too much to admit. That said, her husband should see the letters. You can send them without comment and let him come to his own conclusion. The "embargo in effect" comment just about blew my head off. How about "i'm married and have recommitted to my wife and there is no place for you in my life, please stop". I will never understand these guys (who dont fit the definition of "men') who won't just HONEST UP. if he wants to go be with this horrible women, why does he not just do it? I had a bf like this once and it was easier for him to keep me just a little under his thumb, gas light me and call me crazy rather then just set me free to find happiness. Oh, please leaving me would have made him look like a bad guy.
    See none of this crap has anything to do with you, you are NOT, as everyone has said, NOT the crazy one. Set your boundries, speak what you know--sorry he lost his right to privacy when he took on multiple situations outside of your marriage, you have nothing, nothing to be ashamed of. Sometimes people will not cop to a damn thing unless faced with absoloute concrete proof. Your H seems like one of those guys, yet he still spins the story to feel better about himself. Hang in the girl--hang on to life--with or without him.

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    1. Thanks for this, Steam. I can't believe how timid I've become. I told myself a year ago that I would just let go of trying to find out exactly what happened when and with whom as it was driving me insane. I wasn't eating, wasn't sleeping much, got myself to a therapist and decided I would make a new life for myself within our marriage.
      I would put aside the querying, forget about the people outside our marriage and what they thought of me. And now BOOM. Back only a few steps from where we started.
      I'm hanging in there. I'm grateful for your words. Thankful for this site.

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  17. Ladies - it's Anonymous as above trying but failing to set up a name - Coping in the UK. Elle, Lynn Less Pain & Fragments of Hope replied to my very long story above. To add to it, I wondered if I could seek more advice. This is to do the kissing, sex, the physical side of all of this trauma. As my husband and I have been separated for 5 months, there is no bed sharing or even house sharing. For the first month I didn't even know about the affair as he left telling me he didn't love me so I guess I started the process of my marriage being over and I also didn't even see him for the first month (my mother in law did pick ups and drop offs of my son to my husband). Anyway, I'm trying to understand how I feel about my husband and the huge barriers I have built also are physical barriers. We have kissed twice in 5 months - but for the most part I simply can't imagine anything more as I view him as damaged goods...the last person he had sex with the OW, all visualise is him having sex, kissing, holding hands with her and I feel repulsed. I don't have any physical desire for him to touch me as a result. Did anyone else feel like this? I wonder if it's my barriers, plus being separated, but also maybe what he has done has changed my feelings towards him so much maybe the physical side has gone for me. Or maybe as with my whole situation, I just need to give it time and see if that changes. I guess I am experiencing the complete reverse to hysterical bonding!

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    1. Anonymous,
      I thought about your circumstance and how would it have been different if we were separated. He has not been there to support you everyday, face to face which would make me less likely to want sex and more likely for my mind to be in a mind movie loop. When I got in the movie loop, it helped me to try to make him hurt as much as I did so I had him to feel the full force of my emotions - to get it all out and be hysterical not-bonding. I think your reaction is normal. Think about it, he leaves because he says he doesn't love you. WAM Then a second hit was the adultery. WAM. Most woman I read on this site takes the hit at one time but not two times. When I'm really mad about the adultery the last thing I want is for him to touch me. You have stated several possiblities - you have fallen out of love with him so the attraction is gone and you are separated. You don't have that, "let me show you I'm better than her" sex drive. I think you are rejecting him first so you don't want to take the chance of being rejected. I'm going to reject you first then there is no way you can reject me. It maybe a little of both. If he doing nothing to promote romance or winning you back then why would you feel like boking him? If you want to get the physical back talk to him and tell him how you feel. He will either step up to YOUR needs or you have your answer.

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    2. I with Lynn Less Pain. If he's doing little or nothing to create romance, to essentially win you back, then where would the desire for sex come from when you're already uncomfortable with his past behaviour. It isn't a matter of just picking up where you left off. There's been too much damage for that. He needs to show you that he's a different person.
      There's also the distinct possibility that your lack of attraction is post-trauma. A way of protecting yourself from further pain. A way of avoiding the mind movies or images that accompany any thoughts of him/sex. That can be helped via therapy, along with him being patient and loving.
      And...there is the possibility that you're simply no longer physically attracted to him. After the hell he's put you through, it wouldn't be the least bit surprising that any romantic/sexual feelings for him have vanished.
      It's really a question only you can answer and it might take some soul-searching to figure out.

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    3. Lynn Less Pain / Elle
      Thank you again. It was great to read your advice en route to my own counselling so I discussed it with her too. My H is doing everything to win me back bar being romantic. He does try - asks if he can put his arm around me and really small things like that. My counsellor said he most likely feels like he doesn't have 'permission' to be romantic in any way because of the way I am with him - like you said Lynn Less Pain, as we are separated I think my anger some days gets out of control playing mind movies. The anger isn't actually half as bad as when I actually see him (I couldn't have imagined saying that a few months ago!) - but he gets the full force of me wanting him to suffer and any sort of sexual contact is the last thing on my mind.
      This all comes back to communication (which I've sadly realised is huge reason for this whole mess, or lack of it from my husband.....). I guess if I want to see if those feelings come back I need to tell him that amongst everything else he is doing to win me back he needs to add in romance - even if he gets it thrown back in his face.

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    4. That's an issue with my husband and me. I tell him I want him to woo me, but he feels he doesn't have the right to approach me after what he did. But I need him to let me know he desires me. If it's always me initiating (just like it was pre D-day), then I wonder if he's just going along with it to make me happy, or if he really does want to be with me.

      It's almost 19 month out for us. There are still times when I want to be with him, but my body shuts down involuntarily. A ten minute backrub really helps me. Sometimes it leads to sex, sometimes it doesn't, but it helps me to accept his touch instead of shrinking away.

      Delete
  18. Thanks Steam! :)

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  19. I also am repulsed by my husband's touch other than a simple hello or goodbye peck. I am very much in tuned with how his actions have effected my heart...and my desire for him went away right along with the shock and heartbreak that kept happening over the years. I am past menopause though...have no hormones that "strike" at me monthly as many women do. But somehow I think that the lack of hormones would not be a problem if the trust and love were still alive. I "care" about my husband like I would anyone that I know closely...but I have come to understand that his character issue have killed my desire for him on multiple levels...our lives seem so FAKE. So tomorrow he moves out and across the river to live his life on his own terms. I am at peace...this has been coming for 9 years. I never could feel at ease with someone who is always seeming to be hiding something...and I grew tired of policing him only to come face to face with more deceit. He is not one willing to "confess" his sins.

    Yes, complete reverse to the hysterical bonding...after what he did, my God given human dignity took over as I was already tired of feeling like he was using me as a convenient hole while waiting for something better to come along to dump me for.

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    Replies
    1. Sweetz,
      I'm glad you're turning the page for this next chapter of your life. For many women, betrayal kills any desire, sexual or otherwise. And that's perfectly okay.
      What's more, you can't live a life of policing a spouse. That's untenable and, frankly, a lousy way to live.
      We wish you all the best as you move forward. I hope you'll keep us posted.

      Delete
  20. I had posted this in the wrong thread last night. I hope no one minds that I'm moving out here.

    Part 1
    DanaJanuary 10, 2016 at 2:08 PM
    Well, the last couple of weeks have been pretty horrible, only to get even worse in the last few days.

    To briefly recap, about 3 weeks ago, 10 months from D-Day #1, I found out that my h had been back in contact with the OW. She had come to him when her world blew up in her face because he is "the only person she ever loved and trusted", she has no friends (her own doing, she's absolutely poisonous by all accounts) and her family doesn't particularly care for her, nor are they local. She's mentally ill with some pretty extreme behaviors due to sexual abuse by her father, and can be dangerous. My H told me he felt sorry for her and wanted to try to help her by being a friend. She can be very self destructive, engaging in risky sexual behavior (going to bars to find strangers to have sex with), and he said that he feels protective of her and wants to keep her from potentially being hurt or killed. She was someone he loved, even if it wasn't a healthy, "in love" love and he didn't want to turn his back on her. This is all according to him.

    He told me it was purely platonic, but inappropriately flirtatious. She's incredibly flirty and complimentary by nature, as she's pretty much a professional seductress. And some part of him falls for that. He has very low self esteem from a really crappy childhood and isn't what most women would call handsome. He spent most of his childhood being told he was ugly by his female peers, while enduring emotional abuse and neglect at home, and dealing with the fallout from a period of sexual molestation when he was 7 that he never told anyone about. So her adoration and constant compliments trigger something in him. And he returns it in kind in order to keep that feeling.
    But he insisted that it was not "romantic".

    But, he finally admitted the other day that there was one physical incident. She climbed into his lap and they kissed and she was "grinding" on him. He says he stopped it when she went for his belt buckle and nothing like that happened again.

    He also admitted that he does actually love her...that the feeling returned during this new contact. He says that it's nothing like the love he has for me and he doesn't want to "be" with her, have a future with her or have a physical relationship with her, but it's more than a platonic "buddy" love. He wants to protect her from herself and know that she's okay. He told me that he's doesn't feel okay with not being able to help her, that it makes him unhappy to not know if she's alright.

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  21. Part 2

    The last time they met, she asked him if he would ever make a commitment to her and he told her no. He had already told her repeatedly that he would never leave his wife and that he loved me. She was They didn't speak for 2 weeks because I found out about the contact the following day and we sent a no-contact email, but he aadmitted that she called him last week and screamed at him for leading her on, accused him of driving by her house, trying to call her housemate/landlady (who she hates) and other stalker behaviors. I do know for a fact that none of her accusations are true. This was not surprising to him because she accuses every man she's ever been with of the same thing. She gets angry or her feeling get hurt, and she starts making paranoid claims, sometimes going so far as to file false police reports. Did I mention she's mentally ill?

    But he still worries about her. It's mind boggling.

    To say I was devastated even more by all of this is an understatement. I honestly don't know what to think or do. We're back in MC with a new counselor who specializes in issues like this, but I can't see how we're going to make this marriage work. We haven't had a session since these new bombshells, however.

    I've told him from the start of this new betrayal that I don't think I'm going to get past this one. He knew the damage he had caused the last time and allowed it to happen again. I've told him that I ultimately want a divorce, but there's still that part of me that loves this man I've been with for 25 years, who still sees the good man he used to be. Seriously, this guy was loyal to a fault...but now...

    He cries and swears he wants this marriage, that I'm the love of his life and his soul mate...but those just sound like empty words now because I've heard them before. He's swearing that he'll never speak to her again, that he knows any relationship with her is destructive, that he truly knew it all along but got caught up in his white knight role with a damsel in distress who is both a "Jezebel" AND weak, helpless and pathetic. He swears that he was encouraging her to return to her old home across the country and believes that is ultimately where she'll go since she has absolutely nothing here. He also, the absolute idiot, says that he didn't think of this as an affair. That he knew he was doing the wrong thing by lying to me, but he rationalized it by telling himself that he wasn't looking for a sexual relationship, that he was helping her get her life together and that it would be short lived. He also swears that he had realized toward the end that he was playing with fire, that she was showing her true colors again and starting to act sociopathic and bizarre and that he was trying to figure out a way to end the friendship, but didn't know how to do that without causing her further damage. Again, he "loves" her and doesn't want to see her hurt.

    WTH is my life??

    Ladies, I'm all over the place I know. I think I just needed to get this all out in this safe space. Advice is greatly appreciated, but understanding and commiseration are just fine, since there are no easy answers.

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    Replies
    1. Dana,
      I truly wish I had some advice, but I don't. I'll never understand why guys feel like they need to rescue these broken women. My husband was also guilty of falling into the behavior of "helping" his OW.... build up her ego because her husband doesn't, listen to her whine about not having any money, listen to her issues with family members' health... And while my husband is truly a good person who wants to help others, in this instance, his main goal was to get into her pants. I think it didn't hurt that he was also getting a whole lot of ego stroking in addition to the sex.
      I understand the drive to help people, I truly do. But I guess I don't get how people do it at the risk of the people they love. With that said, I had a relatively "normal" childhood and never suffered from major self esteem issues. I do think in many instances, it takes a really hurt person to be able to do some of this stuff. It doesn't excuse them or their actions, but it helps me to understand how they found themselves in the situation in some ways.
      I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this. Hang in there. Hugs!

      Delete
    2. Dana, while my circumstances are somewhat different the thing that resonants with me is your husband's idea that he didn't think he was having an affair and that he was just helping her. He knew he shouldn't be lying but rationalized it.
      I heard those words. Hard to comprehend, hard to believe there could be that level of denial operating in a grown man's head.
      It's also hard to believe or understand how not wanting to hurt the other woman becomes a priority of any sort when he has a wife he is hurting in order to ease her pain!
      Amazing how our stories intersect. It means we're not alone.
      I'm so sorry you're having to deal with such a difficult mess.




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    3. Dana,
      Do you need him? Do you want him? There is a big difference. I don't need my H, I can get on alone quite well. I want him. You said you still see the good in him. You said above, you can see the good man he used to be. Are you really seeing the good man he could be but you know he never will be? Do want to give him a third chance? If so why? He didn't think of this an affair? The minute he deleted a text was the beginning of his affair. Why didn't HE get that concept? Didn't he learn anything? He realized toward the end really? Figure out what you want and I'm not sure I could put too much into what he says. Do you want him?

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    4. Very thought provoking questions. What I do know is that my H is a master at compartmentalization and rationalizing. He learned the first skill early in life and the second just seems to be a natural growth from that.

      It's come out in the last day that he didn't completely "trust" the changes in me during our reconciliation the last 10 months. He was afraid that I was putting on an act because I was afraid of being alone, so he wouldn't let himself accept that I really do love him....that he's not just a convenient BFF with benefits and a paycheck (which is what he's believed for years...and I knew it). That's not to say that's entirely why he went this route again, of course, but I think it's part of how he was able to subconsciously rationalize that it was okay to "help" her and bask in the adoration for a little while. He told me today that he knows he doesn't "love" her...that it's a myth he fabricated in order to excuse his selfish behavior. He can take all of that up in his solo counseling session tonight and we'll see where that leads. Our new MC has a phenomenal bullshit detector (seriously, he called me on some things that were a little bit rough to hear, but spot on), so our joint session tomorrow should be interesting.

      I have quite a few friends in a few different arenas ("mom friends", old friends, work friends, etc)...some are single and extremely socially active, so the single life wouldn't be god-awful. It may even be pretty damned fun! I have my kids, dogs and a cat, so the house wouldn't be a tomb. I have other family that I enjoy being with. And, I'm kind of hot, if I do say so myself, and I don't have to beg for male attention, should I ever need or want it ;)

      So I could easily stay busy and relatively happy without my H, I would think. It would hurt like a bitch for a long time, but it's doable.

      The problem? I love him. And I can't say that I don't want him. Maybe I will be able to say that in the future, but not right now, I'm just not there yet. 26 years is a long time to love someone and those feelings didn't turn off when he screwed me over, unfortunately. What I want is for him to be the man I knew for the first 25 years, but I know that no matter what happens, he is forever changed by what he's done, he'll never be that guy again...in my eyes or his. Neither of us knew he was capable of this.

      Delete
  22. Dana, I see some similarities in our situations and wanted to comment. I'm 16 months out now and we've stayed together. I guess this is more a comment about Dumsels in distress and the effect they have on married men than anything else.

    At the time of the affair, H was feeling horribly mistreated. He hid his insecurity behind arrogance so I'd treated him like he was arrogant. He'd complain for more sex but refused to spend much time with me. I resented his attitude, neglect and high expectations. I'd ask him for help, he'd feel controlled. I took care of the fixer upper house alone, he couldn't be persuaded to help the way he'd promised he would when we bought it. I'd ask him for attention, he'd act like a jerk the whole time he was with me. I'd bit my tongue and try to be encouraging and fun and we were good friends most of the time but I now realize I was pretty emotionally burned out and wanted lots of time alone because of it. I'm told I seemed geriatric. And he'd decided my desire for time alone meant instead of time with him but never actually clarified that with me. From his warped perspective, I didn't much appear to need him or want him. Eventually, I just let him have lots of freedom and hoped he'd either miss me or leave me. I was in no rush to replace him.

    Contrast this with OW. She was horrifically abused, drug loving, formerly homeless, "friendless", so broke she was skipping meals, with a dying mother and dramatic health issues and two young children. She let him play therapist. She seemed to need him to help her make intelligent basic life decisions. She needed to borrow money to fix her car. She needed help studying for her high school diploma. She wanted to do martial arts with him where I'd just sit with him and watch or talk to him about it. She let people take advantage of her all over the place. She put herself into bad situations and relationships - including sleeping with married men. She's liberal minded enough about sex to make a porn star blush and acted that way. She told the H that she could be his "Friends with benefits." So that was the deal they made. Ultimately he felt like he was taking advantage of her like everyone else and started to say he loved her and make her promises. I don't even know if he knows now whether or not he actually loved her or just "cared about her". He tells me he always told her he wasn't leaving me and loved me and his home with me was his only home. He spoke about her like a project he was working on. Like something he was fixing up to sell. He'd wanted her to find someone else but wanted a say in who she went out with! He always acted like he was doing her a favor and she was doing him a favor.

    I can't even imagine how it must have felt to travel between those two worlds. She thought I knew about her the whole time. He thought he had my permission but was embarrassed about it so he did it but hid it. I had agreed to a divorce and not caring who he slept with after me. I know some day that will make me laugh. I hope lol When it all came out - it was utter insanity. Basically her insanity took over his whole world and my whole world for a while. Then he got sick of it and wanted peace back and wanted to work on us so he called it off with her perhaps not incidentally I was going to move out if he hadn't but he decided on his own before I'd needed to say that.

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    1. Dumsells...I like it.

      It's so infuriating that he'll let a destructive woman like this ruin his entire life. And for what? What does she give in return?

      For my H, they were work friends for about a year and a half before their 3.5 week physical affair, and during that time, she was just a sweet, a bit hapless and accident prone, farm girl with a high IQ but little street smarts....or so he thought. After he ended the sexual relationship, she suddenly became an abuse victim (her fiancé at the time) and that's when the white knight came riding in. It was all a crock of crap, the guy was a jerk, but SHE was the one doing all of the crazy, stalker-ish, threatening stuff. And after my H "saved" her and I subsequently learned of the affair and agreed to reconcike, she actually got angry with HIM that he had "ruined" her relationship and she had no one and HE was "getting to work on his marriage".

      They didn't speak for about 8 months after that, and then all of the sudden, she loses her job, gets a DUI, gets arrested for something else, and gets kicked out of the house she was renting a room in...and she comes crawling back to him, telling him he's the only true friend she ever had, the only good man she's ever known and the only person she trusts. And then she helps turn him into the worst friend I'VE ever had, a bad man, and the person I DON'T trust. The fault is all his, but the irony is a killer. She's total poison, and he's an idiot for getting involved with her again.

      My husband, also, was encouraging her to find another man, even encouraging her to return to her ex-husband across the country. But, he 'worries' about the choices she'll make in the meantime.

      I'm so sorry for what you've gone through. it sounds like you were both pretty checked out prior to the affair...do you feel differently now?

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    2. Wow ladies, there really is something about these "dumsels", isn't there. I hear it a lot on this site -- men who get completely enamoured of this image of themselves as some white knight. And the irony is lost on them -- that they're the villain to the one person they promised to love and cherish. It can take a long time for them to untangle their brains from their dicks and recognize the insanity.

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    3. Elle, that's just it. He was her HERO but I had to beg him for attention. As an experiment before I knew about the affair but while it was going on, I kept at him every weekend to do something with me which I loved and he had always promised to do. It took FIVE weekends. And the last two, I literally begged. It's now something he enjoys doing with me. lol

      But he doesn't remember that I ever asked him to do anything fun. He seems to have willfully decided that he was unwanted and no information to the contrary got through. He decided what I wanted for me based on his impressions of what I thought. I wasn't aware of it until he decided I was okay with another woman after asking me only a few questions....... He's aware of the problem now but doesn't seem to grasp the gravity of its effect over the years yet.

      Dana, you're right. I was pretty checked out. I should have left. I know that now but I never fathomed he'd hurt me so I figured why rush until he ends it and I'm sure there is no chance left. I liked the rest of my life quite a bit. I just wasn't going to try to force him any more. He always knew where I was and I invited him along.

      Apparently to many men, not being sufficiently physically wanted means not being wanted as a person. He never realized he was physically unwanted because of the way he treated me. He blames the way he treated me on the way I treated him and we stayed stuck there. He refused to see a marriage counselor. Another woman was his vision for getting us out of that loop without a divorce. He still maintains it was for US. I try not to laugh or rip my hair out when he says that. lol

      The dumsel is out of the picture for us but the insanity - in part me competing with her hypersexuality and permissiveness, I admit - was completely crazy. I felt sorry for her so I let him take his time splitting with her. Then I heard from her that they were "in love" and I offered to leave them to each other which sent him into an utter panic. Then he thought maybe he loved us both... rofl....... then I thought maybe having her around was making life better after all..... I was clinically insane at the time. I'm sure of it. I don't regret my choices. But goddamn was I hurting at the time.

      Something possibly worth considering... is there anything you can learn from this crazy b*tch? I saw the OW make one huge mistake... her self worth was wrapped up in whether H kept sleeping with her. He was super sucked in by this. But as soon as I heard myself accuse her of this, I realized how much of my self worth was hung up in his approval and it was a large wake up call for me. There were a lot of things I learned from this woman.

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    4. Wow Aelia, you are one amazing woman to be able to really look at the OW with critical eyes that also recognize the ways in which you were similar...and then to create the change in yourself and your relationship that you want. It takes a brave soul to do that.

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    5. Can there be any greater revenge than stealing the best parts of her personality for myself? LOL Seriously, it's just my inner evil coming out to play.

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    6. Amelia,
      I hate to admit it, I had the same thoughts although about the OW. In a crazy way, I learned about my H through the way she made him feel. I hate even writing this down but feel compelled. I found that I was over critical of most everything he did, I was never good enough growing up, I was taught to see the negative side of everything and everyone. I didn't even realize this until I went to therapy. I learned if he does something even though it might not be to my expectations, I look for the positive side. For example, he buys me flowers, he picks them out because of the colors are bright but fails to notice they are in the bargain bin and will only last a day or two. I don't say - Are you trying to be cheap? These won't last what were you thinking, next time look closer. In therapy I learned to see the positive- he was thinking of you and his actions say I love you.
      OMG I'm out 25 months ok, so I have my big girl panties on and can say. I learned fronm the OW ... UGH... this is hard to do. I'm stumbling to even think about it consciously. I learn how to expect more from my husband. (She expected him to bring her flowers, wine, romantic gifts and stood there until he opened the car door). I didn't need him to do any of that - I'm independent. I learned to be needy. I found my voice.
      I learned what pleased my husband sexually (she let it all go, whatever he wanted, he was a naked superman). I thought he wasn't all that great and avoided him. I learned to talk openly about sex with him.
      I learned to respect my husband's opinion and follow his advice. (He helped her to fill out her disability papers, she followed his advice 100 percent and respected his opinion, listened to him). I thought, he is not in my line of work, he isn't mechanical, etc... In other words he didn't know what he was talking about. When he did speak he only had a spec of my attention because my mind was already on the next thing. I learned to respect my H opinion, stop what I'm doing, listen to him, look at him and give him my full attention/respect. I remind him when I take his advice. I learned he does know what he is talking about so now I listen to him and look at him when he talks to me.
      These are biggest changes for me. She made me wake up and see him through her eyes. I missed many of his good qualities that she saw as well as his weaknesses which were used to her advantage. I saw through her eyes what he was missing emotional and sexual. I saw through her eyes his character flaws, his weaknesses, his strengths and his vulnerabilities. I saw how she got to him and kept him coming back for two years through manipulation of his weaknesses, character flaws as well as my own. Excuse me, now I'm going to vomit.

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    7. Lynn less pain
      I have learned so much reading your posts! I too hate to admit how much I learned in the six months of ow contacting me and h what she missed about their relationship. I also watched as she tore his ego to shreds as she called him a coward and even told him that she loves so much about him but he was a very weak man. Well duh! She was a porn star in bed for about two months and past that she blackmailed him with the threat of disclosure to me. He continued to appease her with a few lunch dates and a trip out of town that ended it for him. So we are only 5 months past her last contact but I feel so much farther past her and the influence she had on my h. I too have high anxiety moments but they are much fewer and easier to come back from. For me the healing has come from reading this blog and finding ways to cope with the emotional roller coaster and the connection I feel when I read that other brave ladies have made progress with their own daily struggles. Lynn less pain thank you for your brave words and I too get the feeling I need to toss my cookies when I think of the lessons I've learned! Hugs!

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    8. Lynn Less Pain -
      i don't even know what to say. Some of your examples are .....ME. At this point I don't think I am ready to accept responsibility for my contribution to our crappy marriage. You are over 2 years "still in". I am still learning....and its slow.
      I still don't trust my H. I don't. I still live in fear he will go back, or is still communicating with OW.
      My H is so fucked up from living a double life to some extent for 18 years... I feel he doesn't know HOW to communicate his feelings on any level. He can't say the words.....yet. I know he wants to and is trying the only way he knows how. He is working with a counselor - but God, it's just unreal.
      He told me a few weeks ago, after a session with his counselor, that what he has done; how he has been living is the worst thing he has ever done in his life. Seeing me every day is a constant reminder of his cheating and lying etc. He told me he doesn't know how to forgive himself and that he didn't know that he could.
      I told him he has to keep trying - because to keep punishing himself is going to kill himself.....and ultimately our marriage.
      This process is hell. I too see how I let things .... happen. I gave up - which is, in a way - permission.
      I have so much to learn.

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  23. A (SLIGHTLY) GOOD THING:
    This afternoon, I asked my husband why he hadn't answered the question I asked him two days ago. He was befuddled. Huh? What question? What are you talking about?
    I clarified it for him. "Are you going to show me what you wrote to her to stop her from contacting you?" He called me names, said I was crazy, asked again why I was ruining things. Why I couldn't just leave him alone. Why I couldn't just believe that he was handling it.
    I went nuts. I did. I told him this is exactly, exactly where it all began two years ago. I reminded him of what he did then and explained its parallel to this moment.
    When all of this first happened, I confronted him with the little I knew or thought I knew and he stopped speaking to me for two days because he was so insulted that I would accuse him of being unfaithful. But I WAS RIGHT! He was unfaithful! I quoted from the emails I've never forgotten.
    I said I just cannot understand why he refuses to acknowledge what he has done to us and continues to do to us. I reminded him that I am the betrayed. He was/is? the betrayer.
    To stop me, he took out his phone and showed me what he'd written to her.
    I thanked him but had to point out that he made me the bad guy once again since he told her that I'd learned about her texts from looking at our phone records, that I don't like it and that she should stop writing.
    I thanked him but said I was disappointed that he couldn't tell her to stop because he wanted her to stop. Why did he have to involve me at all?
    He said, "This is why I can't tell you things." You get angry even when I'm doing what you want me to do.
    I thanked him again. He hugged me, a huge difference from what he usually does when we've reached this point in the past.
    Said he is also upset by what we've been going through these last few weeks.
    This is progress, not perfection, but progress.
    Grateful to this site and to all of you for being here.

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    1. Lynn,
      Yes, it's progress. None of us ever get perfection in anything. Not even sure what that would look like.
      But I also hear your point re. making you the bad guy. Contact has to stop because they got caught, essentially, is his message to her. I think it's fair for you to make it clear that, while this is a step in the right direction, it's unfair to make you the bad guy. Contact has to stop because it's bad for your marriage. Contact has to stop because you both want a marriage in which there are no secrets. Contact has to stop because it was crossing a line.
      But, yes, progress. Just be careful you're not expecting too little. Your heartbreak, your rules.

      Delete
    2. Thanks, Elle. I'm going to remember that: My heartbreak; my rules.

      Delete
  24. I never thought of it that way, but it is true - in trying to be her hero, he turned himself into my villain. And then he had to abandon her to save our relationship - and he was the villain twice over. And now he is truly miserable.
    Some quick updates:
    H does not want to separate after all. He says he realizes the problem was all him; he was terrified of letting me down.
    We are still living together - for financial as much as emotional reasons, because he's not working.
    I saw a new counselor, and will see her again in 2 weeks. Not sure where that will go.
    H is doing things around the house, helping with kids, and looking at work options.
    He told me that he finally realizes that he didn't really love his "dumsel".
    I am extremely nervous. He is trying, but his depression is deep, and I am afraid if I make myself vulnerable to him, he will reject our marriage again. I don't think he understands his own feelings and mood swings.
    He is shilly-shallying about seeing a counselor, pleading our limited finances and the hour-long distance he would have to drive in his 20-year-old car.
    He is getting more time with the kids. They were shocked to learn he had lost his job, and I was glad that we did not have to break the news of a separation to them at the same time.
    That's it. It's a mess.
    Hugs and support to all here.

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    1. Phoenix, have you considered some online counseling for H? It may not be as effective as traditional counseling, but it may be worlds better than nothing. It seems generally cheaper, and for someone who balks at the idea of therapy, it may give him some sense of anonymity and less of a feeling of being put on the spot. It looks like you can text, email, chat or even Skype, depending on the service.

      It looks like there may be some that are free...but I don't know about the quality.

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    2. Phoenix, you've got such a good point with the double villain thing once they set her aside.

      I feel like so much of this is about the men chasing a self worth high. Not just basic self worth but HERO level self image. They want someone to look at them and treat them like they are THE MAN so they can feel alive and valuable because they haven't learned to feel that way without the outside help.

      And they get this high soo easily from the dumsels. The rescue missions tend to be pretty low hanging fruit and they are richly rewarded with adoration and admiration. But wives expect SOO much more! Being our heros means climbing to the top of the damn tree for the fruit and maybe even dealing with thorny branches and falls and when you get down we may still treat you like you're just doing what you're supposed to be doing. At least, I know that was the way I used to be. I wasn't about to kiss his feet for the crappy job of husbanding that he was doing.

      But I wonder that continuing to live with them happily requires that we bridge that gap? Yup, he's a double villain now like Phoenix says. But he's still desperate to feel like a HERO! How do you rebuild a man when you feel like kicking him in the balls? How do you do it with your own integrity intact?

      H asked me at one point post-shitfest whether I thought he was a good person and the best I could answer at the time was that I could tell he was trying to be a good person. Is there any way we can find to show them that they CAN earn our respect back? To make it feel possible that he can be our HERO..... someday.... with lots of work... and copious integrity.... and many hours of taking the emotional beatings which he has coming to him.... but when he gets there it will be because we know the real him and not because he play acted a hero for her.

      Because if he can't ever get what he needs from us, then we're wasting our time with him. If he can't feel like that's a possibility then he'll feel like he's wasting his time with us. Can we respect him for the effort he's putting into to becoming a better man for us? Can we be grateful for the loving gestures we receive from him?

      Delete
    3. Holy crap, girl. That was a mind blowing post in so many ways. It perfectly illustrated the difference between reality and fantasy for so many of our men. No one is clapping and cheering when you do your fucking (sometimes craptastic) job as a husband and father. You're not Mr. Superduper Special Stud when you take out the garbage or clean the gutter or fold the laundry or any number of the both hard AND mundane things you have to do to maintain a marriage or family. Because I'm most likely doing just as much, if not MORE!

      But the dumsells? They live for every little speck of help they can get. They bat their tear-soaked eyelashes and lavish all manner of praise and gratitude on OUR husbands.

      And many of these women (like the one in my story )are professionals at it. My MC likens them to drug dealers. They know your H is addicted to the "high" he gets from the attention and adoration (it's actually a sensory response before it's even a "thought" response...with a release of feel-good hormones before they even process the actual feeling itself). And so, they've learned how to sell it and keep their customers coming back for more.

      Whereas we wives, typically, make it very clear in our words and body language that no one is getting a trophy for doing their part, for doing the right thing, for doing what needs to be done. And, for the love of God, they don't even DO IT RIGHT half of the time!

      And, yes, maybe we need to rethink that. Maybe we need to recognize that these men have a need for extra validation, have a need to be told that they're awesome and appreciated. That doesn't come naturally to me, but it might be worth it to make that effort.

      That is, in my case, if there's an effort I'm going to be making at all...

      Delete
    4. "How do you rebuild a man when you feel like kicking him in the balls?"

      Still laughing. Thank you for that, Aelia.

      Delete
  25. Wow, definitely some serious food for thought. I want him to feel needed, admired, and desired - but apparently I'm not very good at it.
    I remember once the family was talking - I don't remember how it came up, maybe we were talking about individual strengths - and I told my daughters: "If we ever have any kind of physically dangerous situation, I let Daddy take the lead. He's got more experience with that, and his reflexes are better than mine, so I would do whatever he said." And he was incredibly touched. He looked me in the eyes and said, "Thank you." And I felt good about making him feel good. And now I wonder: did I do that so seldom? He said he didn't feel needed. And I needed him so much. Apparently I did a crappy job of showing it. Or maybe he just needed a lot more than I realized.
    Life is fast and messy and busy. How can we build each other up? I have an assistant, and I often tell her how much I appreciate her, and how indispensable she is to the job we do. Do I do a better job of building her up then I do with my own husband?
    Thank you, Aelia and Dana, for such thought-provoking discussion.
    When I'm not restraining myself from ball-kicking, I will try to focus on rebuilding.

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    1. It isn't our responsibility to read their minds and provide for their unstated needs. It wasn't before and it isn't now. BUT if there is solid evidence, corroborated by him if possible, that hero worship was something he got from her then I say we capitalize on that knowledge.

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    2. Phoenix,
      I think many many of us stop offering those little strokes to each other. My husband often asks if I'm wearing something "new". Yet any time I've noted that he rarely compliments me, he's shocked because, to him, asking me if I'm wearing something "new" is the same as telling me I look great. Men are from Mars indeed!
      But...we can learn to do things differently. We can have those tough conversations during which we really ask, "what do you need from me to feel appreciated?" "How can I show you that I value what you bring to the family?"
      The other night, we were expecting a snowstorm and, with a garage still full of reno supplies and Christmas boxes, I couldn't put my car in the garage. Later that night, my husband cleaned out the garage enough for me to pull in my vehicle. AND...he topped off my windshield washer fluid. I was so touched. It made me feel valued. And yet, I've thanked him once. Even though I've thought of it often the past few days.
      I think a lot of people need more than we realize. We fall into our patterns. We're no longer wooing each other. We take each other for granted. Some of that is kinda nice...to not have to always look great or be trying to win someone over. But the flip side is that we can start feeling invisible. Or, worse, we start telling ourselves stories, like "he doesn't care about me" or "she's lost interest in me". Small resentments build up when we don't talk them over or resolve them.
      And then, someone is paying attention to us, making us feel sexy and exciting and interesting. And, well, we know the rest.
      Healing from betrayal can give us the opportunity to reinvent our marriages.

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    3. I find it so hard to tell him how great he is when he's been, so... not. I know it's pride and vanity on my part, but it is a fact of my life right now. I can do it, sometimes, but it feels dishonest somehow. He needs this from me though, so I am trying to do it and get past my self. I know that if I am not the one to lead out on this, he will not do it eventually for me, because he doesn't know how. I find myself in the role of teacher on this one.

      Delete
    4. Hear, hear! I wonder if some of the men even NOTICE that they feel invisible before the OWs start to make them feel alive, sexy and manly again. Almost like it jogs them out of a trance. Not an excuse for acting on it. But I wonder.

      Delete
  26. Honestly, right now I feel so lost and so far away from him and from our marriage, I don't know where to start.

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  27. Ditto Dana...I love that quote, Aelia.

    My H and I actually were quite good at the whole mutual admiration gig. We both had kind of crummy 1st marriages (crummy in different ways) and came to each other *knowing* what we wanted in a relationship. And we were really great...or so I thought.
    The morning after D-Day, when I finally fled to my girlfriend's house to escape the sh*itstorm swirling in my own, her jaw hit the floor when I told her and her exact words were: "I never in a million years would have guessed this, that he was capable of this. I wanted to be 'you guys' when I grew up".
    ..."I wanted to be you guys when I grew up"... So I wasn't idealizing what a great marriage I supposedly had. That was both validating and devastating at the same time.
    New Year's Day marked us being together for 10 years. Talk about my life doing a 180' turn in a decade.
    Wonder if it will ever come around to a full circle.
    Sigh.

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  28. Wow ladies! I've been pretty checked out the past few weeks, I'm so glad I took time this evening to catch up! The OW in my case is also a "dumsel", ugh. And I'll be honest, after DDay 1, I tried the whole appreciation route, I wrote H a letter and put in his lunchbox everyday, some days I poured my heart out and some days all I could manage was "thanks for taking the trash out last night", but I missed a day packing a note and drinks and he was teasing me about forgetting drinks and then said "in all honesty, I really just missed my note". After subsequent DDays, I just can't bring myself to do that anymore, every now and then I'll manage one that usually references what a good dad he is, which burns me too since the birth of his child with the other woman is looming over us very soon. Thanks for the quote and the laugh Aelia!

    Suzannah, that's such a bitter pill to swallow. We were very similar in that I came from a first marriage, he from a long term relationship and we had covered any and all issues (or so I thought) early in our relationship. Every single person that has found out has echoed similar sentiments "but you guys are the perfect couple and had everything together" and it makes me so sad to hear because I believed that too. It's a tough pill for H to swallow now that he's finally doing the hard work of figuring out how he could f&@& up so badly and he sees what we had. The difficult part for me is when we have times (like we did tonight) where the three of us sat down (my H, my son and I) and played games. We had a blast as a family and now I'm in tears. Part of me believes we can get it back, we recently found an absolutely excellent MC and are both trying so freaking hard, but again, the OW will forever be a part of our lives and has recently shown she still has no respect for my position in this whole scenario and has essentially made me the enemy. My visions (or delusions) of us all being able to work together for the good of the child have flown out the window as she refuses to include me in anything and then becomes frustrated with my h as he is finally standing up for us and our marriage. At the same time, he (and I) feel such a responsibility for the child and she plays on that with him. He's is doing his damnedest, he really is, but I'm so scared she'll sucker him back in before he realizes it. I just have to keep reminding myself that I can't control him or his actions and his actions reflect who he is inside, not who I am. This just sucks. I pray regularly for all of us here. Reading everyone's stories makes me feel less alone on the days when I'm sure I can't go on and remind me that I can and will be okay either way.

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    1. OOTA,
      You've got such a lot to deal with. And you're handling it with such grace. I hope you give yourself credit for that.
      As for the Other Woman and whether or not she accepts your role in this, I think it's incumbent on your husband to make it very clear that you two are a package deal and that if she expects your husband to be part of this, then you are to be included and respected. He is entitled to visitation and a role in this child's life, which, of course, will include you also being in the child's life.
      I will also add that what's happening right now isn't necessarily going to remain the same. People change, circumstances change. So even though this is particularly difficult, that doesn't mean it will always be.
      Hang in there, Ashes.

      Delete
  29. So...first off, I rarely write in, but I'm a daily reader and I can't begin to say enough thank-you's to the BWC sisters. Elle, Steam, Phoenix.....you will never know how much your words have lifted me....You have pulled me up and given me a virtual hug when I needed it the most.. I'm 18 months post Dday and I'm still being triggered by songs, actions, pictures. WHEN DOES IT STOP!!!! I finally realized prior to Dday, I was happy and I thought H was happy too. Boy, was I wrong. After DDay he told me that he was so miserable that he wanted to leave but didn't want to "upset" the family or break the perfect imagine that we had. I didn't appreciate him. Really!!!! WTF. We were the couple that everyone always said we want our relationship to be like...Only recently, my friends would tell me how they felt uncomfortable telling me about their fights with their spouses because they thought we didn't have "those" types of problems. Before Dday, I was happy...eventhough we were financially struggling, eventhough I had a small child who deprived me of sleep, eventhough I was out of work, eventhough we were in the midst of construction and the contractor disappeared with our money and never finished the work...I was happy because my H made me happy. He was a great father, a perfect husband. Never in a million years would I think he was capable of screwing one of his co-workers. It's amazing how things can change in the blink of any eye. NOW, I'm financially stable with a job that I love, we finished construction and I love my house, my son is healthy and not giving me anymore problems...BUT, I need to work to be happy. It's not a natural thing. Happy is now a verb in my life, not an adjective to describe my life. I have to work very, very hard to get past DDAY and be happy with my H. Why is it such a struggle? I become sooo angry when I think that we had a great life when everything around us was failing, but now that everything around us is good, I'm struggling to be happy. It really, really upsets me. My H realized his mistake and tells me constantly, how sorry he is, but that naivety is gone....I am resentful....I still don't believe what he tells me even though he is trying to show me that he has changed. I now feel resentment towards him. Things are better, but not the same. Their is an awkwardness between us that never existed and as much as we try to make things normal, it's not the same. I'm I asking for too much? What is happiness like after Dday? I'm not sure anymore. Sorry for rambling.

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    1. @Burning Rage; I think of the feeling you describe as interfering with your happiness as Pain Goggles. Before the shitfest, I could sit quietly by myself in a zen-like state rapturously contemplating the beauty of a tree LOL Then life changed. I felt like I was looking at the world, the same beautiful parts of the same world, and I couldn't SEE it. Like I was wearing scratched up old Coke bottle style glasses.

      It's changing now. Your mileage may vary but this is how it's going away for me.

      One of the steps was genuinely absorbing that this was not my fault. It can't be, I didn't choose it. I didn't do it on purpose to myself or to him or to her. Nothing I believe I did less than adequately was the sole cause of it. This shit happens to soo many people. It isn't a personal failing. Maybe it isn't even personal. Maybe this is just marriage and no body was honest with us about it before.

      A sense of safety has crept back in to my life. I can't control jack shit. LOL But I will be okay. Like Lynn Less Pain, I've set a little money aside in my own name now so I can walk out and start over - an escape pod of sorts. Elle wrote a great article about this here somewhere that brought me to terms with this concept. I am here by choice only. I want this to situation to wake me up and grow me up.

      And I'm starting to be able to see through the goggles. I actually had to make myself do it at first. I would look at a beautiful thing/or do an activity I remember loving. The pain would be there too. I wouldn't argue with the pain. I just stayed there until I could see how beautiful it was and FEEL how beautiful it was. Lather, rinse, repeat. Corny, but functional.

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    2. Burning Rage,
      Aelia has written really eloquently on how you can find your way back to "happy". I used to think that my husband's betrayal robbed me of my joy in life. But having weathered that pain and found my way back, I now find any joy I feel to be even sweeter because I know the alternative.
      If you're feeling as though you're not moving forward, or you're feeling numb, I urge you seek counselling. Many, many of us experience post-trauma symptoms after betrayal. A sort of flattening out. It's a survival mechanism that can serve us in the crazy days following D-Day, but it's no way to live your life. And it sometimes involves letting yourself experience just how deeply and profoundly sad you are before you can also allow yourself to feel any joy.
      Feelings are just feelings. They come and they go. To think that you'll feel any way forever just isn't true.
      As Aelia writes, our new reality is knowing both sides -- the dark and the light. It's really just life.

      Delete
  30. Mind-blowing posts, indeed. How are so many intelligent, caring, eloquent women here with the same story? How many of us married the same guy (2nd rounds for us too, Suzannah), the sensitive one who sought hero status with a batshit crazy homewrecking whore? I had just written H his annual birthday letter – 8 pages of pics and I love you, and what a great year. Why was I working so hard? Because he was so checked out.

    Thank you, Aelia -- How to rebuild when you still want to KICK?? He is out of the fog. We are better together (For the BWC playlist: Better Together, by Jack Johnson). I still panic at times, I settle when I see and hear the new version of H. To those dealing with repeat offenders, I told H this: If you can't control your behavior, we might be friends, but we won't be married. Therapy, medication, and meetings were game-changers for him. 16 months and counting.

    Hang in there, warriors. Before this site, I thought it was kick him to the curb or be a doormat. You’ve taught me that I can stay if the conditions are right. Thank you for the wisdom, the roadmap, the hope.

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    1. Snowbird,
      Thank-you for sharing your story. I love your clarity. We should all be so clear with our boundaries.

      Delete
  31. Dear girlfriends, I'm 25 months past D day. My husband's adultery lasted 2 years. I graduated from therapy. Things are pretty good now, I still hurt and now dealing with the emotional left-overs. These are things after everyone has left the table, picked up their dishes. There is a little bit of rice left in a bowl, nobody touched the salad and the dessert plate is clean. I'm the rice. I have been looking after MY money I saved not sure if he has my back. In the last 2 years my husband has done it all, took all the shit I could throw at him and says he is deeply in love with me, Has pleasing me is on his mind 24/7 and the happiest he has ever been in his entire life. What's the problem? We want to travel in our retirement, saved and went through hell to do so - both of us. He wants to do something that will take a little of both our reserves to do so. If I left today, with what I saved I would be ok. But if we decide to move forward with somethings then that changes slightly. Do I trust that this time if something happens he will have my back? Is 2 years enough time to prove it? I read about others going back to the OW. Will my husband do this? My therapist says if she were a betting woman then no he will never have another affair. I talked to him last night about my hesitations and basically I said I still don't trust him to have my back. He understood and said ok, we won't do it and I don't resent it. Am I foolish to think he will have my back this time? Am I foolish to think he is telling the truth? I'm really stuck on this next step of handing him my future again but don't want to miss out on life and potential good times. When is enough really enough? He said deservingly, he understands that he screwed up. Later in the evening, he said he is not quite where he wants to be in himself but he working on it. Unsolicited he told me he still feels extremely guilty about the entire mess he made.

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    1. Lynn Less Pain -
      I understand your hesitation....financial security blanket - it's hard to completely trust and believe your H "has your back". My H has made comments a few years ago that I had no retirement (while I was caring for his ailing mother), or saying "what are you going to do". I didn't clue in then.
      But sounds like you both really committed to reach a goal...something to enjoy together. Is there really enough "time in" since DDay to trust and believe, and feel completely comfortable with what our H says and does?? I don't know. But, based upon his comments to you about not being where he wants to be with himself.... that tells me caution...yellow light. BUT I just don't know how the guilt can ever go away for the H's - your H. To some extent, it's always there. I don't know when enough "time" is enough. You deserve the good times....and to be happy - sharing it with someone you love, respect and care for, someone you've been with for so many years...to do the things you always talked about. Think about it - but don't over think it. Sounds weird coming from someone so "new" - but I mean that. YOU be happy - whatever makes you happy.

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    2. Lynn less Pain
      I was able to get to the point of knowing I could sustain myself financially because I invested all my profits from the sale of my child care centers 18 years ago into our house on the lake. 8 years ago when the economy tanked, my h lost his job but he is an electrical engineer with years of contact in his field. He found a job in the town I grew up in and where we first met fell in love and were married. My mother lives near by. His job involves traveling to job sites from one coast to the other. We've always been open with our finances and I just let him keep up with bills so I was unaware during the affair of money spent to keep his ow happy. He knew from the beginning since dday that half of everything we owned would have to be split equally and he was prepared to do that if I was not willing to stay and repair our marriage. This said, it was so hard to deal with the ow for six months of her harrasment that money was last on my what to do list. We had also spent a year getting to know each other daily and he was so good at being the same loving h I had known before the betrayal. I delt with my grief and pain and this blog has helped with that part. There are times I wonder if this is temporary behavior on my h part and what will our future be . I don't dwell on the sad and now that I'm stronger both physically and mentally, I realized if he left me today I would be able to pick myself up and get through life one day at a time. The choice I'm making is to be the best me I can be and with the positive changes I see in his choices now give me more confidence that we have a great chance to make our marriage better than it ever was. I feel like both h and I have made progress on our own shortcomings and for me this is working. Hugs!

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    3. Lynn,
      If I was a betting woman, my money's on you. That you're going to be okay, no matter what. That your heart is so big that you've got room for him, a damaged and repentant him, in it. That your fear will continue to shrink if you look at how it's getting in the way of your joy today.
      None of us knows, Lynn. None of us. Those blissfully married people who, today, think they're the luckiest people in the world, just might find themselves on this site tomorrow.
      All you can do is take a look at what's in front of you. Right now. And then close your eyes and leap. It honestly sounds like he's going to catch you.

      Delete
  32. Wow, ladies. So much to take in this morning. So much of what you have written has crossed my mind but I've struggled to put it into words.
    It's been over a year since I found the phone records. Nine months since I learned it wasn't "just an emotional affair." And in that nine months, we've progressed as a couple. Our relationship is honest, we're considerate of one another, we're committed to our marriage, we not only love one another but we enjoy each other's company. My husband has changed. I have changed. Yet there are days where I am still just sad. I question why it took nearly losing me and our family to give up his affair.
    I know we are in a better place than we were before. I know prior to all this our relationship was unhealthy, we took each other for granted. But some days I just want a relationship that doesn't have infidelity in its history. And I'm sad that I had this load of shit dumped on me without being given the opportunity to say no. I wish it hadn't taken this for my husband to be the person he is today.

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    1. Dandelion, I'm right there with you. I'm not sure I understand this dynamic entirely. I, too, ask myself all the time: Why did it take such a horrible betrayal, such a violation of our relationship, and the extreme pain and intense work that follows to strip my husband of the veil he hid behind for so many years?
      After each storm, each reminder or each "mini" violation of our agreement designed to take us forward, my husband becomes sweeter than sweet. Instead of embracing him, I want to scream, "Why can't you just be like this all the time? Why does fearing my wrath bring out this side of you?"
      Why did we have to go there at all? Why did it take my stripping him of his secrets for him to be a fuller, more present partner in this 30+ year marriage? Then I ask myself, "Is he acting or is he authentic? Does he just not want to go through all it would take to divorce at this stage of our lives?"
      I know what you mean about not wanting to have infidelity in your history. I feel the same way. We are forever changed. We will never forget even as we forgive.

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    2. Dandilion
      I'm still trying to figure out why my h had been wondering about sex with other women because he had been married to me since he was 21 and he just saw his life was almost half over. The old mid-life crisis for different sex. He did count on the ow having emotions and attachment issues when he wanted to end it. I don't know how often she contacted him that last year but I know he was sick of her by then and even more sick and disgusted with her actions the year following the end of the physical contact. I have watched my h slowly get his act together and the way he treats me is why I'm able to cope better now with the few triggers and anxiety moments I have every so often. I still question why he had to hit the gutter to figure out he had all he ever wanted right at home with me. Hugs!

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    3. I have asked this question so many times. Why did he have to be on the verge of losing everything before he realized the value of what he had?

      I don't know. I'm trying to focus on the fact that now he does realize what he has. He says he appreciates it so much now because he knows he's damn lucky I gave him another chance.

      Along with not playing the "what if?" game with myself, I also have to not let myself go down the "why?" rabbit hole. In purely clinical terms, I know why. I've read enough to understand the motivations. But on a gut level, I don't think I'll every really understand because I'm not the one who cheated.

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    4. What I find difficult is, although we were going through a lot of strain and stresses, how he could forget that we'd been together all those years, friends way back (20 years ago!), how we prided ourselves on being open and honest (though I realised afterwards that it had always been me doing most of the talking). Why couldn't he have just come to me when he began to realise he was getting himself in too deep in this emotional affair. He said to her 'I've never had a friend like you I could open up with.' Yes he had, me! He's done all the work but still finds emotional stuff and 'talking things out' difficult. Which bugs me since he spent so much time rushing to her to express himself (though he says it wasn't really about the important things. Still enough to feel a strong connection. I feel this continued loss that at the one time when he really should have come to me with honesty, he didn't and he lied a second time round with a month's contact 9 months later. So, once again, he never opened up. Now he want's to be open and share things but the stakes are not so high now, what he has to tell me is not big deal news like that. I have to try to do mental gymnastics to move forward even though some core losses cannot be changed or made better.

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    5. Thank you for your replies.
      Gee, I think you're so right when you talk about avoiding the "what if game" and the "why rabbit hole". Neither of those take me anywhere positive. I'm lucky in that my husband has been open and honest since the day he realized he could lose it all. But even in his honesty, the fact that he could cross that line still floors me. I have been in the position where others flattered me when he wasn't. I stood there with my toes nearly touching that line but never stepped over it. guess even at my worst, I wasn't in the state of mind he was.
      So instead of dragging myself through the "what ifs" and the "whys", I should probably focus on where I am right now. I can't wish away what happened and I can't undo it. I can accept this new relationship even with its flawed history and my husband even with his failings or I can walk away. The truth of the matter is he's not failing me or himself now. I have the choice to hold onto those past failings or try to move past them. Define him completely by what he's done or let him show me that he never wants to do that again. I think someone here said neither spouse will ever be the same after infidelity. I guess my hope is that we'll both be better.

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    6. Fragments ... im over 8 mo out ... while i never thought of it as a 3rd or 4th or 5th chance just my husband getting out of the fog and his head out of his ass my h also fell back into the affair 2mo after dday he spoke to her a couple weeks and they had sex 1 more time big wtf i went ape shit its all about me or you wont have me!!! Truth is and between us that was the rock bottem he needed to see it wasnt all that ... fantasyland bullshit the ow also showed more of her delusional true colors. 5mo out i saw in history he had been on ow fb? He said he was wanting to see what she was up to not like interested but tans on her as she continued to text email call hang up. It wasnt till after all this he came clean 100% and focus on us. It was quiet for awhile and she started calling again now we blocked all accounts we could and he changed his number i see action in him now not jyst words. .. it still hurts. We r still working at this but i dont feel half has zombie like as initially. Hang in there make a choice or sit idle till u figure it out like u we have many years vested and truth is more good than bad. Big hugs .. me too i feel ur pain and im rooting for you.

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    7. When i asked wtf what were u thinking he said he wasnt thinking about me at the moment he just thought closure friendship but ow had a way of making him feel guilty. .. indebted to her like he had to help up to me as an outsider looking in they used it other and he owes her nothing she knew he was married .... my h has been more open now and even beings it up himself trying to figure out what drove him there when he sees now his bff has been here me all along ...

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    8. Wounded, thanks so much, I really appreciate your reply. That last post is EXACTLY what my husband said - Dday2 she had contacted him on viber messaging on PC saying 'are you man enough to face me' (he had only sent no contact email 9mths before and blocked her phone.) Like your H he said he was just trying to close it all off ('fix it himself'). He told her he wanted me (but he also told her he felt guilty for talking to her - to me that would've sent a mixed message to her.) Me finding out about the second contact was, like your H, the real bomb that got him out of the fog. He admitted that he had never dealt with the feelings he'd developed for her (now he sees them as an illusion of his depression but he felt then he had loved her.) What is still really a sticking point is that on D-day two he had to be found out. He never came to me. (Ironically he did tell me first time round because he really thought there was something there and 'didn't want to let her go.' but subsequently lied and lied to my face about continued contact.

      I would give a warning to other spouses who are early out of DDay1, even when your H has the best of intentions and really does want you back, they can still be conflicted, addicted, unresolved, tied to the endorphins and might still do something stupid even many months later, especially if she contacts him (technically he didn't go out looking for her but was just 'responding'. Aaarrgghh) So much of it is about the fact that they just coast along once they get into the affair or fog, they don't examine their actions, they don't even see that they are 'acting' or actively doing something wrong. They just act like it's an act of fate. That's the most insidious aspect of affairs, in many cases both parties the OW and the CS just seem to feel that the fates alligned to bring them together, and there was nothing they could do about it. It absolves guilt for them. It's a narrative that pervades media and society too.

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    9. The "why did you do it?"I understand the why but I don't understand the "how could you?". I'm not sure I never will. Several penises were waggled in my face during my career but I couldn't do it to him. I told him yesterday, if you truly understood how this shook me to my very self core, I don't think you would have done it. The whys are numerous and it happened slowly over time. I was thinking last night how could you have sex with someone knowing she was going to open that snatch for someone else in 2-3 days, her boyfriend? I have learned a lot about my husband since I stopped accusing him all the time and just listen. I realized he likes the situation of casual sex without strings. He was that way with his previous girlfriends. He also stays in relationships hoping they will get better even if he is unhappy. He never has had the courage to leave someone it sounds like. I'm finding out things about his personality that I don't care for much. The dynamics of living with someone without really knowing them is ongoing. The good is more than the bad. But I never really saw the character flaws.

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    10. The "whys" are endless and, in my case, useless. I will never understand, just as I don't understand how my mother became an alcoholic. Or how my aunt was able to commit suicide. And on and on. I'm not those people. What I was able to do was realize that, if I had walked in my husband's shoes for his life, might I have made the same choices he did? It's possible. And within that awareness, I found compassion for him. And within that compassion, I found forgiveness.

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  33. Wow. BWC sisters, I scroll through reading your posts, and every one does my heart good. I really feel that God put you in my life. I can't imagine going through this without you. I'm with Snowbird: what an amazing group of women, all in the same crappy boat. But we are so not alone.
    I love the discussion about "perfect marriages". Obviously there is no such thing. And we have learned the hard way that there are no guarantees, even if you are married to your best friend. All marriages suck sometimes, and you never know what is behind someone else's façade.
    And I love the analogy of the "pain goggles". I called them "dark glasses" to myself, but they are the same thing. They give the whole world a darker, more painful tinge. But already it is a little better, and it is a relief to hear from those farther down the path that it does get much better eventually.
    Another thing I get from these posts is that, even for those farther along, it is a day-to-day struggle. Some days are good. Some days are bad. That is helpful to hear in my position, since my husband and I are definitely distancing ourselves from each other these days. It may be a stage, or it may be another step towards the eventual dissolution of our marriage. But I have to remember not to overreact, and to take things one step at a time. 4 1/2 months since Dday!
    One thing is for certain: I do know that this ordeal has made me stronger, or it has allowed me to discover a strength that was already there. I am not the person I was, but I am damn proud of the person I am. I am not a weak, self-centered dumsel. And I am not a helpless victim. I am strong, and I am going to be okay.
    Love and Hugs to you all!

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    1. Omg Phoenix... I somehow missed that you were only 4 1/2 months out. I thought you were one of the old timers around here the way you support the rest of us.

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    2. Aelia, thank you, That is such a compliment. I've found - as I know you have too - that, while it is amazing to be able to talk freely and have people understand and care, it is also amazing to hear others' stories and feel like, maybe, something you said made them feel a little less lonely and a little more comforted. It is the miracle of this group, isn't it?

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    3. Phoenix,
      The strength has always been there. That you're able to tap into it when you're in such pain will serve you well.
      And yes, take each day as it comes. Move in the direction that your heart prescribes even when it feels scary. Move in the direction of your next right step.
      You should be proud of who you are.

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  34. Phoenix--- regarding the 'day to day struggle"--after the heartbreaking loss of my dog recently the grief I am in is at times unbearable. Truly unbearable. It's familiar though because when I found my H in an affair I didn't REALLy realize that I was grieving. I knew i had PTST, I knew I was hurt, I knew I was in shock (and he was horrible and blah blah blah) and I think the term "grief" was on my radar, but I did not think of it that way. I thought the anger, was just anger. Sadness was just sadness and on and on--- But right now my grief comes and goes. One day without tears and I think I am "over it" and am shocked when it comes back with a vengeance the very next day, or hour or minute. so recovery from that trauma we have been through, at least for me, follows the exact same pattern as the grieving I am in now (which btw is not an exact thing) It's not falling back or slipping back when you are drowning in moments or torment. it's grief, no doubt and like grief, time will do its magic and start the healing. some healing is so small you dont even realize it's happening. at 4 months Phoenix, you SHOULD be proud of the person you are and you are going to be okay no matter what. It's hard to see, but I think you are seeing it's true.

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    1. It is hard to see sometimes. Thank you for the reassurance.
      I think I had a little bit of a head start on working all this out, because I went through it with my parents 24 years ago, infidelity and divorce. I was in my early 20's then, and they both used me as a confidante to some extent, which they now regret. But I am analytical to a fault, and I eventually realized back then that I was dealing with grief. My family members were still there and still loved me, but my family was dead and that way of life was gone forever.
      It took a while to get past the shock of my husband's betrayal, but when I did, I knew I was back to grieving again - grieving for the marriage that would never be the same, and the feelings for him that are forever changed. Lord, that sounds grim. But it's just a new reality. I survived my parents' divorce, and so did they. I've battled depression throughout my adult life, and I've learned to ride that out, because it always gets better. So I know I will survive this. You are so right, Steam, time will do it's magic, and even though I know that, sometimes I really need to hear someone else say it. And I love Gee's metaphor of grief below.
      I was just thinking about you and your dog this morning, and feeling sad for you. I am sending you hugs and wishing you comfort.

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  35. When they talk about the stages of grief, they make it sound like it's a ladder. Like you move from one stage to another until you reach "acceptance" and then you're all better! So when we reach a feeling of acceptance for a while, we can think, "Phew, I guess that's over!" Then anger or sadness hits again and we wonder what the heck is going on.

    One of the best explanations I heard is that the stages of grief are not a ladder--they're like a pinball machine. You go bouncing from one to another and back again. That's why one day you can feel like you're really past it, and then the next day be screaming into your pillow because you don't want your kids to hear you cry. It does not mean you're not healing or making any progress. It just means you're still bouncing around in that pinball machine, trying to find your way out.

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    1. Gee, thank you for that analogy! I had to screenshot that one. It really makes a lot more sense.
      Now when I feel like I'm stuck, I can remind myself that I'm just still stuck in that damn pinball machine!

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    2. Steam & Gee

      Thank you so much for these wise words on grief, oh how I needed them. I feel grief hanging over me and fear in my heart. I know I have a long way to go and more to learn...more hard emotions to move through. I am tired though, sometimes I think this is enough, here I will close my heart, I can't learn anymore, feel anymore, I don't even know how to do it. How do we feel these things, how do sit with our grief and fear?

      Maybe that is one of things I will learn - to be still, to be present.

      Anyway- thank you sisters because honestly (silly me) I was a little surprised by some feelings .... And then ..... Oh, this is grief.

      My love and support to all
      Becky.

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    3. My therapist used to call it "recycling". That round and round of emotions, revisiting feelings we thought we were well and truly done with. She compared it to a spiral moving upwards rather than a straight trajectory. Round and round, which pretty much summed up the first few years of healing for me.

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  36. First, your site has been a lifesaver in some really dark moments for me. So thank you. I have been married 10 years and my husband moved out 3 weeks ago. We married young and everything was great for several years but after 3 kids close in age something went wrong. He had a 2 week affair that he broke off and confessed to me nine months later. A year after that he got involved in a year long emotional affair with a coworker that he told me about and ended. We are both so tired of the ups and downs of the last few years but I can't seem to let go. We still really care about each other and love being together. He thinks something is wrong with him because he keeps hurting me even though he tries so hard not to, which is why he moved out. He says he doesn't really think anything can change so he likely will be seeking a divorce in a few months. We've tried individual and marriage counseling but it never seemed to help and he stopped wanting to go. He still comes over to the house fairly often to spend time with the kids and we are kind to each other but I don't know how to be. Should I avoid him? Should I hang out with him and pretend like nothing happened? This is what I always want to do. How do I accept reality and stop hoping that things will ever work with us? Do I have to? And is my willingness to want to work things out preventing him from stepping up to fix his issues? Please help, I'm torturing myself with this.

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    1. Anonymous,
      Your husband might have a sexual addiction, I think most of the cheating men married to the women on this blog have a Love/Sex addiction. They might want to stop, but they are so caught in the addiction cycle and their inability to sort out their emotions, that they just can't, and they don't understand why. He might find some answers and help by seeing a certified sex addiction therapist, or a CSAT therapist. My husband did, and the CSAT he is seeing has been great. It has changed his life, for the better, and mine, too. Best wishes and blessings for you.

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    2. You cannot have the relationship you want and deserve unless he figures out what he is getting/what he got out of these liaisons, until he decides what kind of man he wants to be, what kind of life he wants to leave. He says nothing can change, but if he really wants it to, it can. If he really loves and wants you he can put all the effort possible into it. Real life can pull people apart, real life can send people into depressions and make people look for unhealthy ways to boost themselves (which is often what affairs are). Why does he think nothing will change? Why hasn't IC worked? Has he been remorseful or is he overwhelmed with guilt and can't face it? How is he behaving? As it stands he needs to make reparation and to put effort into repairing the relationship, if he can do that, you will have a good chance long term.

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    3. Hi anon. It doesn't sound like your husband is helping you heal, it appears that he wants to run away from what he's done by moving out, considering divorce and not wanting to engage in therapy. I think it's a cop out to suggest he can't change and doesn't want to keep hurting you. I believe we can all change with the right support but we must want to change first and foremost. I think your being very fair with him and I'm not sure he deserves it. You def shouldn't hang out with him like nothing's happened, you need to get clear on what you expect from him. Can he see the children at his own house? That way you get some time to yourself. He still seems to be making all the decisions and you are going along with them,

      Take back some control and make it clear what you want to happen. Let is know how you get on stay strong xxxx

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    4. Anonymous, I wish I could offer advice, I am so sorry. Your situation reminds me of mine; we are very caring to each other. He is horribly sorry for hurting me, and is scared he will do it again. So he distances himself, and that hurts, too. My husband also feels that there is something wrong with him.
      I'll be honest, when my H pulls away, my impulse is to pull away also, to close off my feelings and prepare to move on. I assure him of my eternal friendship, but I start to withdraw from him emotionally and picture a future without him. It is self-preservation, I think, because, with all the ups and downs, I become more and more reluctant to believe in his commitment, and in a future. But I don't know if my response is the best one. I am honestly very confused these days.
      I'm sorry I'm not much help. I offer commiseration, because I think I understand how painful and confusing this is for you. I also offer my admiration, because I truly respect a woman who is capable of such strong love and commitment. Know that you are an amazing woman.
      Try to be kind to yourself, to live your life and love your family, and make your own way. Our husbands have to grapple with their demons. We can be their friend, because we love them, but they have to save themselves. I guess we hang on for as long as we can, and then, if it becomes too painful, we have to let go.
      Hugs to you. I wish you did not have to deal with this. Praying for you comfort and peace.

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    5. Thank you all so much for your words of support and advice. It is incredibly comforting coming from others who have been there and understand. This kind of pain can feel so lonely. Often I wonder what is wrong with me that I don't just leave him behind in anger like it seems like I should. Maybe it's because I think he's going through some kind of midlife crises or crises of identity and I keep hoping he will break through it and things will be ok. I have come to accept one thing - he has to figure this out on his own and that will only come if someday he is ready to fight for it. In the meantime I will keep trying to take care of myself and my children and do what seems like the next right step for our future. Thank you for the love and prayers <3

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    6. There is nothing "wrong" with you, Anonymous. You are undoubtedly accepting the love you think you deserve. The question is, why? What do you think you don't deserve better than someone who's baffled why he can't be faithful to you.
      Of course, it's possible to rebuild a marriage after betrayal. But without getting to the root of why, you're setting yourself up for more of the same heartbreak. It's tempting to want to just move forward and hope that it won't happen again. But his past behaviour tells you that it will happen again. Again, the question is why.
      I would urge you to find a counsellor who can help you explore this. If your husband is unable or unwilling to get some answers on his own, then he's sending you a message to expect more of the same. I hope you'll find the strength (you do have it in you) to tell him that, unless he's willing to work incredibly hard to deserve you, then you're going to move on.

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  37. It's my 2 year D-Day anniversary and the whole month of January was a complete nightmare. This weekend 2 years ago she drove into town and needed to speak to him to see 'where they were at'. (This is during period we were supposedly discussing our own marriage prospects). I asked him not to go but he said he really had to, that look of desire/desperation in his eyes. I had to stay at home with the kids while hour after hour went by. They talked for 4 hours in a local bar (I'd told him if he had to go not to be seen! Madness, but I only had moments to discuss it with him). Later in the month more traumatic incidents, as I discovered the full extent of their interactions. He juxtaposed intimacy with me (sex) and then went out of the bedroom and answered her texts. The night before we'd been having a serious conversation about our marriage and I discovered that he was texted her romantic kissing cats emoticons that evening. Just the whole horror unravelling. Even the way he first told me, I was just settling down to sleep and he joked that for once he wanted to chat (usually I was the one who brought stuff up). The whole sanctuary of the bedroom, sleep, relaxation was destroyed (we plan to change our bed.) This month I have put some lovely flowers beside the bed to (ward off evil spirits?!!) Things are much better between us but I find it so exhausting trying to work round the triggers that are EVERYWHERE this month. He is trying to practically be here more, help out, give me time to pursue pursuits that are me but of course I'm still going to still feel adrift. Alongside the continuing difficulties with my son (aspergers, very challenging teenager and now not going to school at all - so having to figure that out). I know I'm doing well considering all the pressures (plus three other kids to mind and encourage) but I'm fed up of feeling fed up and weary of feeling weary. I do try to do lots of things to lift me and am getting back to my creative work but I'm also tired of having to manage myself. My friends daughter is also in a bad way psychologically (recently took paracetemol) and I also feel for other mums on forums with similar problems to my son. I'm obviously suffering from depression/burnout/anxiety (probs with son go back years) and I should be proud of hanging in but I really want a more joyful life than this. There's also no getting away from the fact that the infidelity and betrayal of such a long standing relationship/friendship will always be a disappointing element. I know as we grow old there are inevitable losses and griefs we have to live with, that don't go away. Even the loss of who I thought my son could be is one of them. My lovely mother in law cut down cruelly by a stroke, now in a wheelchair and not communicating as she used to, loss of an interactive Nanna for my kids, esp my daughter, she misses out. This is just life. But it's been too much reality in one go. I want to feel happy again. I take pleasure and joy out of my children and spending time with them but so much of life seems tainted by the affair and other struggles. Thanks for listening. I'm sure I will feel better after these trigger months go by.

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    1. Fragments of Hope,
      I've been where you are for the past few weeks. Slightly different circumstances. Still, I'm struggling with the triggers and grief and struggling to get back to my own creative work.
      What we've been through and what we're going through will end. We will feel better. We will find joy in life again.
      My sense is that just as with everything else there are ups and downs. It's just that this particular down is so painful. But feeling the feelings is so important, no way around it.
      The value of this site, at least for me, is that it gives us a safe place to voice, fully and without reservation, all that we're feeling and to be supported by our sisters, who are experiencing this nightmare with us. We are all at different stages, different ages, different locales but united we stand.
      Feel better soon.

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    2. Foh, well done with juggling your family commitments with the betrayal of your husband, that was never gonna be easy and your doing a fantastic job so make sure you keep telling yourself that. I hear your feelings if exhaustion and anxiety and hope things get better with time. As for now you need to look after you, make time for yourself/ times with friends/ husband. We all need support at times and now is a good time to ask did it. Like you said time doesn't stand still for any of us and in the midst of our pain we put our needs to the bottom of the list well that needs to change today. Little steps foh . Sending you big hugs, roll on February xxxxx

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    3. Fragments, you have an incredible load to carry. My heart goes out to you. I have worked for 20 years with kids who have special needs, and no one, including me, can really understand the difficulties their parents go through. I'm sorry you feel so burned out right now, but it is so, so understandable. I pray that this month will pass quickly and will be better than you expect, and that you will soon be renewed and refreshed. Hugs! You are beautiful and wonderful.

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    4. Lynn, Sam A, Phoenix, thank you so much for your compassionate replies, they really touched me and I will carry your kindness along with me as I keep going.

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    5. Fragments, The BWC warriors are right. You've got so much to deal with and you're handling it all with incredible strength and grace. There's a lot of loss in your life right now.
      But, as I often quote Churchill on this site, when you're going through hell, keep going.

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  38. CRAZY URGES:
    A couple of nights ago,I lapsed into a mode I'd inhabited when I first discovered what my h was doing.
    I became Sherlock(a) Holmes: A couple of nights ago, he said he was going to a lecture. Didn't say where or when the lecture was, got dressed, put something in an envelope and told me what time he'd be back.
    I was fearful that he was meeting this woman. So I guessed where the lecture might be, got myself a ticket, put on my clothes and headed out to it, without telling him precisely where I was going. Made up a story about who I was meeting. Ugh, I hate telling you this but I need to tell.
    I sat in the back of the lecture hall so that I could see the entire room. He's a space cadet on some levels so since he wouldn't expect to see me I figured he wouldn't look. Sure enough he came in, walked right by my row and didn't notice me.
    I'm ashamed to have done this but I couldn't control myself. He didn't meet anyone. Once we were both home, I mentioned the lecture without acknowledging that I knew he'd been there since he hadn't told me where he was going and since I didn't say hello or sit next to him.
    Reflecting on what I'd done and why, I decided to tell him how our latest exchange was making me crazy, and threatening our marriage yet again.
    First I thanked him for finally showing the texts to me.
    Then I explained my feelings, that it was hostile and aggressive to tell me he'd decide if he was going to show me the texts. That it was painful and humiliating for me to wait two days and then to have to ask him if he was ready to show me. Why put me in that position? Why suggest that my request was improper? He said, "Because no one has the right to read my private messages." To which I screamed, "You lost your right to privacy when you cheated, lied and betrayed me via those messages!!?" He said nothing.
    I told him that the fact that he told the OW that I'd discovered her texts by reading our phone records, made me furious and suspicious all over again. I asked why he couldn't simply tell her again to stop. He began to explain how needy she is, how harmless she is--Whaaaaat?
    I said that to my mind, his telling her that I'd read the records could easily have been his way of telling her to contact him a different way since that's exactly what happened when all of this started. And that I didn't believe him when he said he was going to the lecture since he hadn't told me which lecture or where it was, just as he used to do.
    I also said I'd wished he would have left me out of it. That each time he asked the four women with whom he'd been having emotional affairs to stop he'd used me. And all of them talked about how I needed to be helped to understand how harmless their relationships were.
    Why throw me under the bus? He said he wasn't throwing me under the bus at all, that telling a woman that his wife doesn't approve is the most effective way of getting that woman to back off.

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  39. PART TWO: He pleaded with me to let it go. That he was done. That he wanted us to save our marriage and that his message to this one woman who was holding on should be the end of it. He's sure she's hurt and embarrassed. (I tried ignoring this comment and did for the most part.) Hasn't heard back from her and doesn't expect to.
    We hugged and kissed. I thanked him. I agreed we needed to move on from this latest set back,
    BUT last night I couldn't sleep and having easily guessed his new password, read his mail again. This time I read old messages from 2014 from another woman and became enraged all over again. I also discovered something I'd missed: that a message she accidentally sent me about meeting at a particular time was really a message that should have gone to him.
    When I'd written back to her so she'd know she wrote to the wrong person she told me she meant it for the person with whom she was going to have a facial.
    ONLY, what I read last night was an exchange between her and my husband where she tells him about her error and they both agree that her explanation was fine and that they could still meet.
    My heart began to race. (Mind you this is, like, midnight last night. I'm reading messages from 2014.) I stopped reading. Turned off the phone and tried listening to a podcast to go to sleep. Then for a second I thought I'd just forward those messages to her and her husband.
    I didn't do it but I was close. This is the insanity I'm coping with.
    Thanks for reading. Thanks for this safe place.

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    1. I can't tell you how many times I've seriously considered driving 30 minutes to town and past her house to make sure he isn't there when he says he's at a class. Just a drive by...

      Spoke with a therapist once about something like this... Said I was going to demand to see his text messages to make sure he wasn't still talking to her what he was saying and he asked me.... What do you expect to find? If he is talking to her and you don't like what he says- what are you going to do about it? If it's nothing, then what? It's like we expect it to do something for us but we're really just pain shopping.

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    2. Lynn,
      I think, as Aelia says, it can be pain shopping. But I don't think it is in your case. I think you're still not sure you have the whole story. And each time you come across some new piece of info, it's clear that your instincts are correct.
      Lynn, I don't know how else to put this but you're husband is still lying to you and putting you in an untenable situation. That he can't understand the threat these women (or, more to the point, HIS relationship with these women) is putting to your marriage is a huge problem. That he won't act like a grown up and make it clear that he has chosen to end the secrecy because it's disrespectful to you and to your marriage is a huge problem. He still thinks this is middle school and you're some nosy friend trying to drive a wedge between him and his new friends. "But can't we ALL be friends?" he wonders, while secretly sending them texts about how demanding and controlling you are. It's completely unfair to you and shows no respect. It also shows that he hasn't yet figured out that if he's lying to you about ANYTHING, then that's a red flag. It's an indication that he's doing something that's unhealthy for your marriage. If he can't show you every single text on his phone, then he's disrespecting you.
      I joke about my husband, I confide in friends about parts of my marriage...but if my husband were to ever read every single one of my e-mails and texts, there would be nothing that would threaten his role as my husband and best friend. And that should be normal. We might find ourselves embarrassed about stupid jokes or confessions about sex positions or whatever...but we shouldn't find ourselves having to defend what we're doing.
      You deserve to be in a relationship in which you are cherished and valued. Where YOU are worth fighting for and giving up some other women. He's not there. He still views you as somehow getting in the way of these "harmless" friendships. They are NOT harmless to you and that should be more important than anything else.
      I'm so sorry you're going through this, Lynn. But, frankly, I want to give you husband a good smack of sense because he doesn't seem to have any.

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    3. Lynn,
      We all have our lapses. I had gone for a stretch of time without "checking up" on the OW on the Internet. My husband and I both blocked her on FB so I was kind of limited in what I could find anyway. Then I got the brilliant idea to create a second FB account that was in no way tied to me, so I could check up on her there. It spiraled from there. Then one night, it hit me. It was all abouti control for me. I had convinced myself that by checking up on her via FB I could in some way assure myself she wasn't going to drop back into our lives. But in my attempt to control the situation, I was hurting myself. It's been 9 months since either of us have had any contact with her, but I was stirring up all the pain again. All the anger was coming back and I was bringing it all right back into our marriage. In an effort to give myself an illusion of control (because the reality is I can't control anything but myself), I was actually making it worse. I think on some level, I was, as Aelia mentions, pain shopping.
      I think most of us fall back into patterns from time to time. My FB is just one example of something I've done. There are others I'm sure that I just can't remember at the moment. The list of things I've actually contemplated, but have been able to show some restraint on is lengthy. ;-) I think it's normal to go there up until you feel you know what you need to know. But I believe once you know what you need to know, you may have to remind yourself when you lapse not to stay there.
      I think all of this is normal behavior when you've been betrayed. And as my husband tells me frequently, "You're not crazy, you're hurt."
      Hugs!

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    4. Aelia, Thanks for your comment. I sense that your therapist was suggesting that you would have done nothing had you caught your husband's inappropriate behavior. I guess that would have been pain shopping.
      In my case, I would have used that information. Doing nothing would not have been an option.
      Still, this latest episode has pulled me out of myself and my own life more than it should have. In that way, it has been unhealthy. Oh, and of course, playing detective was totally and completely unhealthy. Phew! We're mostly back on track, thank the Lord.

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  40. The hypervigilance is compulsory, sometimes. You just have to do it to feel safe. You can't stand feeling that there is something you don't know. I so, so get that. I have also done several things I am ashamed of.
    Problem is the hypervigilance hurts us, too. It eats us alive inside. It makes us obsessive.
    I don't want to sound like a hypocrite. I still cling to a couple of my hypervigilant habits. But I am trying to ease off of them a little. When it is time, and I am ready, I will finally let them go. Right now they are like a security blanket.
    Your pain is so fresh, you will probably be in that place for a while, too. And knowledge helps us understand our situation better. But try not to be too rough on yourself. File away 2014 in your knowledge banks, but try not to punish yourself by dwelling on it too much, if you can help it. It hurts so much to go down that rabbit hole.
    I've been angry with your H when I've read your posts (probably no one here really likes mine, either; we don't exactly present their best sides). But it sounds like the two of you are making a little progress in communicating. I really like the way you are trying to be positive with him, but also calling him on it when he cops out, and making him recognize how you feel. It's good that he is listening to you.
    Hugs, Lynn. Stay strong!

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    1. Thanks, Phoenix. I've reined myself in. I feel as if I've had an emotional virus these past few weeks. Caught me by surprise at a weak moment. I'm recovering. You and others here have been such a God send, a safe place to vent and recover.
      Think I'm just about back. My husband and I need to move forward from here. He is listening. He is trying. He's also dense, narcissistic, and exquisitely emotionally immature.

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    2. Lynn, you made me literally laugh out loud! Sounds like you really have his number, honey.
      Will anyone ever know these men the way we do and still love them?

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    3. Lynn,
      I think that description pretty much sums up most of the husbands who find themselves cheating. The stand-up guys don't find themselves with their pants down. That's not to say they can't become stand-up guys or find their way back to it. The question is, does your husband agree with your assessment of his behaviour. If not, that's a problem.

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    4. Thanks, Elle. I wouldn't say my husband agrees with the precise words I used to describe him but he agrees that these emotional affairs got out of hand because he willfully ignored the ways in which those women (and then he) crossed the line.
      Their coming on to him fed his need to have his brilliance and achievements acknowledged, to use his power to help them write better, or get a grant, or feel stronger and independent enough to be their own women in the world, in spite of being overshadowed by their husbands--what irony in that one.
      He knows he shouldn't have been doing what he was doing. He knew that anyone on the outside looking in would suspect that a lot more than was actually going on was going on because of the nature of the language. He is a public enough figure that he'd been used to and dependent upon a certain celebrity.
      This most recent storm has reminded both of us that he still has work to do to understand himself, his needs and the commitment he made to me and to us.
      I love him and I believe he loves me. He says he understands. And has promised that he will never hurt me or our marriage in this way again.
      I think that's all I can ask of him.
      As far as I'm concerned, I'm suspicious of how I've allowed this latest episode to derail me. I have my own projects and friends to continue cultivating. I have to get back to that.

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  41. BWC sisters, forgive me, for I have sinned.
    I wallowed all weekend. Slept a lot. Skipped church. Did not go to lunch with my awesome grandma. Bad, bad Phoenix.
    Today is a holiday-MLK day-and I will hopefully do better. I am going to do some volunteer work for a couple of hours with daughter number one, and then we have to find her some shoes. Hopefully by accomplishing something, I can lift myself out of this funk.
    "News of the Weird and Trivial": my H and I have been cast in a play together. I do a lot of community theatre. He hasn't done anything in 22 years, but since he's out of work right now, for once, he had the time, so he auditioned. I was glad he got cast; he needs an ego boost and something to focus on. But we've been cast as a betrothed couple, and all of our scenes are together. This will either be awkward, sad, and ironic, or it could help a spend some time together and maybe make a little progress. Guess we'll see. I've always secretly envied my couple friends who do plays together.
    But hope can be a scary thing...

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    1. The casting sounds delightful to me, Phoenix. However it works out it has got to be a good thing. You can't possibly hide much when you've got to work together the way actors do.
      Forget about your wallowing weekend. Enjoy yourself! There has to be joy somewhere, don't you think?

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    2. I don't think wallowing for a few days is bad. I'm sure it's like a child getting fussy before it makes a development breakthrough. I find after a few days of nearly immobile self-indulgent sadness, I either suddenly understand something or find that I've let go of something that was hurting me. I can't imagine nature made us want to wallow for nothing. It's got to serve some evolutionary purpose! That's the best excuse I could find for it.

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    3. My dear Phoenix, I read this post and my heart went out to you. I know it is so hard and we all know how we feel on the inside - I'm sure your weekend was emotionally needed. And sometimes we have to be gentle and care for ourselves because who else is really going to.

      I hope the play is a positive experience for you and your H. Good luck. I love community theater and attend a lot of productions in my area.

      As always thinking of you and all the sisters here. Sending love and support

      Becky.

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    4. Thank you, Becky! I've been thinking about you! ! I hope things are going well for you.
      Aelia, that is very insightful. Possibly true, possibly a masterful rationalization, but either way, it works for me! I hope my wallowing was, indeed, to good purpose.
      Lynn, you're right. Let's find some joy this week.

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    5. Phoenix,
      I think Aelia is right. It's often in our wallowing that insight takes root.
      And I think the play is a wonderful thing. My husband took yoga together in an attempt to stitch our marriage back together, one asana at a time. We were like kids in grade school. We giggled. We om-med. And we began to like being together again because we couldn't talk about "it" so it felt like a safe way of just being together.

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  42. Phoenix a play sounds so exciting, let us know how you guys get on. : )

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  43. I dont feel stuck ... just down today ... off. Putting myself first i am doing it feels awkward at times maybe even selfish but i know thats because i alwaya used to put everyone elses needs first when really i need to take care of me to be able to take care of them too. This too shall pass.

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  44. Guess its not only the me part ... its saying whats on my mind while trying to be gentle. .. setting boundaries and expectations not settling for less then i expect and deserve but mainly finding ways to work together ....maintain and get thru ... arent we all ... xo to all of u .... perhaps still being limited and winter is not helping either ... exercise used to be my outlet ... not possible right now ... i guess in all this new is uncomfortable at times but needed to find our way. I dont even know if im making sense ...deep breaths i will come out on top ... we all will ... guess im still in that pinball machine ... 8mo out ...

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    1. Wounded, you're making complete sense. Forget what Eliot said, January is the cruelest month. Dark. Cold. Grey. Blech.
      And, when you're learning new ways of being -- such as boundary setting, self-respect, self-care -- it can feel destabilizing. But you're actually getting a stronger footing from it, even when it feels wobbly.
      Self-care is the opposite of selfish. It's about compassion for yourself. It's about ensuring that you're able to be with others from a place of stability and kindness rather than resentment and obligation. It will make you a better wife, mother, friend, daughter, etc. etc. But it takes practice. Be gentle with yourself.

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    2. Oh yeah, January is a big bucket of suck. The holidays are over, winter stretches ahead, and depending on where you live, it will be months before spring thaw. To top it off, my wedding anniversary is at the end of January, and it was also the anniversary of the day I had my third miscarriage. Blech.

      Last January was a nightmare. It was seven months past D-day. I'm happy to say that this year is loads better. I have so many more happy days, the lows aren't as low, and I actually have hope for the future.

      Lots of love to you. You will get through this. I know sometimes that's hard to believe, but you will. And we're here to help.

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  45. So I've had a good week and have been making an effort to let my barriers down a little and spoke to my husband about giving him permission to try to woo me - so I can figure out if I feel that way inclined towards him again (5 months since d day - separated since). I've actually felt mentally a little bit better for trying to be less angry and defensive all the time - half the time it makes me feel worse ultimately. Anyway, am looking for a weekend break with my girlfriends and up pops an offer at hotel H stayed in with the OW. And then I'm shattered. I just can't imagine ever escaping triggers. My counsellor said they will lessen but whether I stay with H or not, triggers will happen. Anyone who is further along than me can you testify the triggers lesson or do you just care less if you see the name of that hotel etc???
    Am crumpled on the floor physically and mentally. I know it's ebbs and flows, but it's the triggers that absolutely kill me.

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    1. Coping,
      Triggers are BRUTAL. And it just isn't a matter of pushing through them. That might work...but it might not. I sometimes think you have to do a sort of homemade immersion therapy -- where you expose yourself to something that's a trigger for you. Maybe it's a geographic location. Maybe it's a song. Maybe it's a hotel. And then, each day, give yourself five or ten minutes of just focussing on it. Cry. Scream into a pillow. Journal all the horrible things you'd like to say to your spouse and/or the OW. And then move on to something else that you're looking forward to -- like a lunch with a friend, or a massage, or a walk in the woods, or whatever. Eventually the triggers will lose their power. Of course, there will the triggers that you don't anticipate. Being introduced to someone with the same name as the OW, for instance. Or seeing someone from a distance who looks like her, or certain dates, etc. But by exposing yourself to what you can, in small increments, you're taking back some of the control.
      While I wouldn't recommend staying at the same hotel your husband stayed at but, if you're in the same area, walk by it. Or Google it. Remind your brain that it's just a building. Just a song. Just a name. You can assign new meaning to all these things, with time.
      As for increasing intimacy with your husband, my strong advice is to really REALLY lower expectations. Intimacy can be tough enough without expecting everything to be perfect. Accept that it will feel awkward and uncomfortable and incredibly vulnerable. It will feel like you're a teenager again. But it's worth trying. Each step brings you a bit closer, as long as you're both willing to bare your hearts to each other.

      Delete
    2. Coping in the UK
      Triggers happen sometimes when you least expect it! In the beginning because I knew which exit on the interstate led to her apartment, I was triggered each and every time my h and I had to go under it. This was often because in the beginning we chose to leave town due to her threat of confrontation in person. We were blessed to have our lake house where she knew nothing of to escape to. However we had to use this route to get there. I took Elle's advice and slowly but surely I was able to go through it without my heart pounding in my chest and the angry feelings of how close she lives to our weekday home surging through my veins! It took months but I did overcome it. I began to look straight at it and in my mind say over and over again you don't belong in our world any more and never will again! It began to make me feel powerful in the fact that I no longer felt the anger boil and I can say I am at peace with that trigger. There are always going to be triggers and some I don't even know about until they happen, but each time one happens, I go back to Elle's advice and talk myself back from it. Yes they get fewer and less intense. Time helps with both! Hugs!

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    3. Coping, I think in some way the combination of facing them head on and time will lessen the intensity of the triggers. I was triggered by the places where my H had sex with the OW, all of them were parking lots within a mile or so radius of my office and his office, as well. I know... classy, right? I knew the locations and every time I would drive past them, I would have a physical reaction and would almost always cry. But since I don't plan on changing jobs, I had to find a way to cope. I made him drive me to all of them one day and show me exactly where he parked. That was my way of taking control of it. It may not work for everyone, but I couldn't continue to go through that every day. I can say that now I can drive past those places and what happened there registers with me, but I don't react as I once did.
      For other triggers, like songs, I change the station or turn the radio off if I don't feel like I can deal with it that day and tackle them as I feel ready to. I managed to make it through "I'm Not The Only One" by Sam Smith without any tears. Seems simple but it's huge to me.
      It doesn't happen overnight and sometimes it's barely noticeable. But then one day, it occurs to you that you're reacting differently and it hurts less.
      Hang in there! Hugs!

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    4. One thing that helps me is to deliberately reclaim whatever has become associated with her. Pretty sure this was the man's idea actually. Everything associated with her felt ruined at first and I told him so. It was a sizeable list and including things I associate with affairs in general as well as specific to the shitfest. So we went about reclaiming things for us. A lot of it was sexual so he was all too happy to help.

      There are a few things that I reclaimed for ME though. There is a restaurant that got associated with her that is now MY restaurant lol I take my girls there. I go by myself if I want to. He still doesn't even like to go there with me but fuck it, it's mine now. lol

      I find the defiant mentality of thinking of it as reclaiming gives me a sense of power where I might tend towards self-pity otherwise. Just think... "Fuck you, bitch, this is mine now. You aren't ruining anything else for me."

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    5. Triggers do lessen. I promise. My husband's OW lived in an apartment. I don't know which one. I honestly don't even want to know. But for a long time, every single time I drove past an apartment building (and there are a LOT of them in town, it's impossible to pick a route that doesn't go past at least one), I would think, "Is that it? Is that where he threw away our life together?" I felt like it would never end. Elle assured me it does get better with time. She was right.

      At 19 months out, I can tell you it does. Just the other day after I picked my son up from school, I drove past an apartment block and realized I hadn't been triggered by one in weeks.

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    6. Aelia,
      YES! I have tried to do the same. Mine isn't associated so much with locations as most of their interactions were parking lot sex, but there are two restaurants that I fully intend to reclaim. There were a number of holidays I felt had been ruinef as a result of his affair and I think we have successfully taken those back. This summer we will vacation in the same spot that we did two summers ago that felt tainted because he was in contact with her while we were there. So this June, we'll take that back too. I've come to feel that the only way she can take anything from me is if I give her the power to do it, so the defiant mentality works well in that regard.
      And as petty as it is, I sometimes chuckle to myself when I realize that he and I had sex more in the first few weeks after I found out than they did during the entire affair. And it damn sure wasn't in a parking lot.

      Delete
  46. Comments re hypervigilance are interesting. 3 years past D Day and 2 years since further revelations of how long the contact/affair with the ex girlfriend went on for I am progressing and we are hopefully surviving. I do keep checks, I check his mobile phone records and sometimes where he is through his phone, both without his knowledge. If he does 'stray' again that is it, after 35 years. This is mistrust, however I will not be fooled into ignorance again. That is my feeling currently but hopefully the need to check will reduce with time.

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    1. Anonymous,
      I think the need to check starts being linked to a genuine suspicion rather than just a compulsive need. In other words, when something doesn't feel quite right, we check. Otherwise, we carry on. And yes, that comes with time.

      Delete
  47. Coping I was 3 months out when I decided to go to the restaurant my husband had taken ow. I went with a friend and didn't really know what to expect. I'm actually glad I went because it was a dark dingy place no character no spark just a place you would go with your affair partner as a way of avoiding anyone you might know.

    I never found out the name of the hotels he took her to but if I did I would never have stayed in the same one that would be too difficult. I still get triggers 27 months out. It could be from a song I listened too in the wake of my betrayal or a place, daytime tv anything. As you go further down the road of healing they become less frequent and upsetting. I agree with Elle sometimes facing them head on is the only way. Hoping your days and weeks ahead are less psinful. Lots a love xxxx

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  48. BWC angels. Thank you for all your responses and advice. They have really got me through the day when yesterday was so awful and ended in hurling abuse at my H.
    Elle - you mentioned journaling. I MUST do this. I wish I had from the start as I think it would have been / will be additional therapy for me, to go alongside this wonderful site and my own counselling. I honestly don't know what I'd do without all you ladies. Some friends even wonder what I'm talking about when I've mentioned a 'trigger'. No-one gets it unless you've been through it. Tackling it head on when I am up to it sounds like a plan. As does getting myself a nice notepad and pen for writing murderous thoughts about the OW and my H! Time is the biggest thing on my side, I keep needing to remind myself.

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    1. Coping,
      Absolutely. Buy yourself a gorgeous notebook, perfect pen...and then unleash. Behind anger is usually a mountain of hurt and fear and it really helps to work through that on the page.

      Delete
  49. This is a two-parter- sorry for the length:
    Haven't been here in a while- thought I was doing a good job of recovering until a couple of weeks before my 60th birthday which triggered all sorts of recycling, anger, resentment, sadness, etc.
    Background- my H had two emotional affairs with sexual aspects. He received sexually-oriented gifts from the first woman over the course of two years while finishing his enlistment in the military. The second woman he knew from work and after her H abandoned her, he stepped in to rescue her and part of his "rescue" included gifts from Victoria's Secret and belly rings This woman was someone I knew and I was fine with him helping her through a difficult time- except I think he was helping himself more. (BTW- I do not believe she ever knew it was he who was buying her these things- he would send them anonymously from a post office in HER town. ugh) On the phone with her 24-7-365. No boundaries- no respect for my birthday, our anniversary, or holidays. Secrets all over the place. Time on the phone with her during our vacations- which I no longer have any photos from because they are all ruined. 8 years of that. D-day was almost two years ago now- we had been married for 36 years and he started his affairs shortly after our 25th wedding anniversary.
    He is transforming- he is. He is finally paying attention to me after not even noticing me for many years. He now helps me around the house, insists on helping me do hard work that has, in fact, wrecked my body. He holds me when I cry- which has been a lot lately. He is doing good work...BUT...
    and here's why I'm stuck- he still hasn't answered the two questions I've asked him to answer from day one- why belly rings and underwear? If you knew this was wrong, why couldn't you stop?
    I finally understood that part of my issue over the last month has been that I haven't gotten an answer yet- even after asking him before Thanksgiving to work on it and give me answers. I even went so far as to tell him what I thought had happened and what I thought was going on...and he said he couldn't disagree with anything I said and that he and his counselor have talked about it and that all those things I said were possibilities. (Understand that like many of us here- I uncovered ALL of it- he never provided any information that was the truth for several months after D-day. I did it all. I'm asking him to give me 2 frickin' answers on his own. And I need more than "possibilities." I need probables and certainties.
    C.

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  50. Part 2:
    So tonight, after a painful day (I get those wonderful body aches when I'm depressed), he asked me what was wrong and was I mad at him- I said yes- what did I do? Well, nothing (which is the truth) and then I had to explain it again. I did it quickly and without emotion- I'm not sure who I was. I asked him if what I was asking again made sense (he didn't remember the questions!!!) and he said yes...and then he retreated.
    Arrgh!! Y'know, I feel sorry for him- I do. What a betrayal of himself. This was not the man I married- he was truly a Jekyll and Hyde for 10 years. He is now the man I married. I would not want to be in his place and have to explain those answers to him- I wouldn't and I know how hard this is for him- and how shameful it is, how embarrassing it is, and how horrendous he must feel. But I don't care. He hasn't done the essential work yet of figuring this out so I can better understand him and what happened to him. I need him to do this work, and frankly, I believe HE needs to do the work to redeem himself in his own eyes.
    My counselor says I may never get the answers I need or want. Ok...maybe, but doesn't he have to try first?? Doesn't he have to understand my needs? I already can't unsee the phone records and the credit card records- and I can't undo my imagination...and frankly I tired of trying to come up with my own answers as to why he bought her those things and why he didn't stop. When does HE provide the answers I need?? And I NEED the answers-it's not about wanting them. I have to have them to understand this whole sorry episode, and then I think I can reach a new level of healing, but I'm stuck and have been stuck for about 6 months.
    I've spent so much time over the last month reading Joseph Campbell stuff on heroes. And I keep thinking he's not there yet...he hasn't totally transformed. And while he has said how sorry he is, and I've seen him sorry and it isn't pretty...there's a part of me (the Catholic part) that thinks he hasn't yet completed his penance- and those answers are the penance. I know that's an odd comparison, but it's the only one I've got. And, y'know- part of this is also that I just expect more from him now. And I'm frustrated asking multiple times for the same thing.
    Does ANY of this make ANY sense to anyone?
    C.

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    1. Yes it does make sense! I'm struggling with this as well. I had a serious melt down in the last three days. I ask him the same 2 questions that I have asked for 2 years. His answer makes no sense to me. He tells me he already told me the answers but I don't believe him. I can't make sense of his answer at all. I told him I think he has the answer but doesn't want to admit it out loud to me, he is lying to himself and he just doesn't want to think about his adultery. Maybe he has provided his explanation but I don't know what is deep in his heart. His actions mirror his explanation but somehow it is not enough. What is really bothering me? I think he liked her better than me from a personality stand point and if she hadn't been disabled with Parkinsons , limited cash flow and unhealthy mentally he would have chosen her instead of me. I think that is what is in his heart that he won't admit to me. My therapist says it is my low self esteem that drives these thoughts which Is a long time struggle. Then I think ok if I get the answer then I'll just come up with another question. Here are the pros that he is not lying the truth. He stopped contact immediately. He was relieved to do so. He told me immediately when she contacted him. He has never looked back at her. He has done everything and still does to fight for our marriage that is 24/7. He said to me do you know the difference between keeping psychokindergaren teach happy twice a week for an hour to her quiet and me wanting to keep you happy 24/7, doing everything I can to do to keep you? Cons: He did everything for her and nothing for me at the time. His actions said I love you - flowers, wine, jewelry, feeling sorry for her, watches, coffee, lunches, dinner and worried about her if she was unhappy, she sat on his lap and cried about her tales of woes. He comforted her. I traveled extensively in my work. He said Do you know how many times you said you would call me and didn't? He is right I forgot. He said we both did things wrong in our marriage but I found the woman of my dreams, best sex I ever had and we have so much fun together. It is all so confusing. When I talked to the OW she admitted he never told her he loved her. She did tell him she loved him and he said I love my wife who is flower less, jewelry less, sex-less, wine-less. Yeah that one. I should be over this but I just keep it going and I can't make it stop either. I can tell myself all that stuff we all use to get it out of our mind, yes I have over and over. It works for awhile. I can't believe I will never resolve this in my mind, come to grips and see it for what he tells me. I ask him how long were you going to buy her silence? He says I don't know. He has planned a wonderful Valentines weekend for us, all on his own. Why is nothing ever enough for me? Is there anything he does ever going to be good enough? UGH and WTF today both and I'll throw in FUBR today. Also it is suppose to snow in the south which is rare so he going to buy me a sled today. I'm 61 years old and he knows I love to sled. I hate my mind.

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    2. Lynn less pain
      I so feel your pain! I had to learn that my h didn't have answers for a lot of my questions because he was already over any feelings he had for the ow when she decided that I needed to know 'the truth'. The only problem was her truths were not his outside the fact that he cheated and his lies were not telling me and he continued the affair to keep her quiet for an extra year. He once said to me I lied to her more than you if that helps. Not no but hell no that doesn't make me feel any better! The fact remains that you lied, betrayed my trust and just because you are 'over it' doesn't mean I am! I had so much anger that he couldn't understand why I needed the whole time line. I finally got those answers but he never could answer the 'how'? How could you spend Monday to Thursday sleeping with her and come 'home' to me on weekends and still treat me like a queen? His only answer was it wasn't easy and that's when he decided that the only way to get rid of the ow, like I said in early post, he was over her by then, was buy me a car for my lab and build a fence for the lab. She watched him do these things and still she thought he wanted her and she tried for that last year to 'prove' to him he really loves her. On and on this woman drove both of us crazy. So I can finally see the old version of my h! I'm hoping you can see some good change in your h as well. Like you I hated what swirled through my mind! I still have to fight triggers! Only five months since her last contact and he showed it to me that night when she sent it. That one haunted me daily for several months. I think too much some days and that gets me in a funk. So I stay as busy as I can to keep those gray thoughts out of my head. Not easy on days like this when my arthritis hurts so bad I can't even move. Snow sleet and freezing rain headed our way and I'm glad at least the weekend will be here so this winter h will be home when the bad weather hits! Last year he was in Texas for work every time we had bad weather! I'm so sorry for the pain you feel but I do understand it! I wallowed in it for months last year and over the last few months life is slowly getting better! Hugs! Oh and just to mention, my h has no clue how to express his emotions. I know he has them but he doesn't have words for any of them. He tells me he loves me and he shows it sometimes but I like you still question the how! How do you know you are a better man? How are you changed? No answer for those questions. So I just get through one day at a time! Enjoy your new sled!

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    3. C,
      I suspect your counsellor is right. You may never get the answers to those questions because he may never really understand it. It isn't a logical thing. It doesn't really make sense. So much is happening on a subconscious level. BUT...I'm wondering if his counsellor would consent to having you come to a session and explaining what you need. With your husband's permission, perhaps the counsellor can help you with the information you need. Maybe your husband is just really crappy at explaining it. Maybe he panics at your questions and gets confused. The other alternative might be for you two to communicate in writing. Write down your questions and then ask your husband to respond in writing. It might force him to really think it through...and it will give you something tangible to go back to.

      Lynn,
      As I often say about the men whose behaviour drove their wives to this site, you're looking outside yourself for something that has to come from inside yourself. You're expecting your husband to make you feel good about yourself. It sounds as if he's doing everything he can short of time-travel and un-cheating. And still, the insecurity is there. Who knows whether she was healthy, rich, etc. whether he'd have stayed with her. She wasn't those things. We can drive ourselves mad with the "what if xxx" and "but what if...". We all have a zillion different possibilities about how our lives might have turned out. There are no "soul mates", no "meant to be"s. There are only the people we choose, today, to have beside us. But I think you're getting some valuable information about how you still have some work to do around your own self worth. There's still something -- and you might have to accept that it will always be there -- that says you're just not quite enough to warrant someone's love. Lynn, that's your work. Your husband's cheating has undoubtedly triggered all that stuff. It certainly did with me. And he should never have done it. But neither he nor you can un-ring that bell. What you can do is really excavate where that message is coming from. Who was the first person to tell you that you weren't quite...enough? Whoever it was, you're the one in charge now. You can learn to silence that voice. You can learn to love yourself, with all your very human flaws.

      Theresa,
      You are a beacon of hope. Thank-you for all the wisdom and compassion you share here. Thank-you.

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    4. Elle
      Were it not for the words I have found on this blog, I'm sure I too would be sitting here in a tailspin! I hope my words can give just a pinch of comfort to those who find themselves walking in the same shoes we are all wearing! My thanks to you and the others here!

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    5. Elle,

      I either want to marry you or adopt you. Thank you so much, you are right.

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    6. I'm going to keep donating, please don't close this site but I appreciate you taking your time to rely. I wish I had won the lottery.

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    7. LLP,
      I'd love to be adopted. It's ridiculous how often I miss my own mom and just want to be mothered!!
      No plans to close the site. My personal fantasy is that some uber-rich woman who has been cheated on (paging any Hollywood star!!) will become our fairy godmother and finance the site. Wouldn't that be great?? I'll even settle for an uber-rich cheater who wants to redeem himself.

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  51. Yes C...it makes perfect sense. I want...NEED a full confession. A confession that is not prompted by me, but prompted by my husband's humility and empathy about what he put me through.

    Since it is not forthcoming, we are separating in two weeks. I do not want to be with a man who will not examine himself and as a result, still makes me fear the parts of him that remain cloaked to even himself. I want clarity and ANSWERS...and I want them because I deserve them before I dare to put my eggs into his basket again. Hope that makes sense?

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    1. Sweetz,
      It makes total sense. You simply cannot rebuild a marriage with someone uninterested in figuring out why they violated their commitment in order to ensure they don't do it again. You phrased it perfectly. Unless he's willing to take the cloak off and look at the darkness beneath, it doesn't bode well for the future of any relationship.

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    2. Well said, Sweetz, you've come to the crux of it there, if they can't or won't examine themselves to see what led up to it and be willing to undergo a transformation into someone with clear values towards a secure marriage and a commitment to them then they will stray again and it is too much of a risk to stay with them. I admire your stance on this and clarity though you'd rather not take that stance and know it must be so hard for you.

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  52. Anonymous I'm really sorry your stuck in your healing and totally understand why you might need answers. Unfortunately you may have to come to a point of no return and accept that you never may get answers. And if you do they might not be the truth and if they are thru might not be the answers you want to hear.

    Sometimes our husbands can't explain their behaviour they don't know how to I don't know about your h but mine is less articulate than me and finds it hard to explain why he does what he does. They just do it, sometimes thought doesn't enter their heads. Therapy should be able to help you both with coming to terms with his behaviour. I know what your going through I've done it and I'm doing it now, wanting the fine details. like you I'm thinking he's either lying or keeping things from me if he doesn't answer. Whatever the reason is anon we must let it go for our own sake get your counsellor to help you with that. It's so difficult I know it is but you e come so far and like you said your h 'is now the man you married' keep building on that and look at how far you have come on this road of healing.

    Hope this helps in some way. Wishing you well anon. Stay strong xxxx

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  53. Lynn, Theresa, Elle,Sweetz, and Sam A- thank you so very much for your thoughts about this. Lynn- your H and mine could be twins- so much of what you wrote is true for him and the situation. And I have learned over the last almost 2 years that my H CANNOT express himself emotionally. He just doesn't have the words. I never knew that. I also think he panics and gets confused because he doesn't have words, AND I think he can't bring himself to examine his actions because they are so shameful to him. So you've all hit it on the head in many ways. I suppose I agree with Sweetz- and we're all different, I know- but can I build a meaningful relationship with him when he cannot bear to ask the hard questions of himself and provide answers to those questions on his own without me playing Inquisitor or psychoanalyst? Deep down, I think not only will I be better emotionally for it, but he will benefit- perhaps more than I will.
    I'm feeling better after writing my rant and reading your responses- of course, that usually happens when I get on this site. I'm reminded that many of us share the same stories or versions of the same stories. I like Elle's suggestion about asking him about attending one of his counseling sessions so I can clearly state what I need and why. That may be helpful if he agrees to it- and he may feel more secure in that environment than just with me. And believe me, I know I may never get those answers- my logical brain keeps telling me that, but my emotional brain hasn't caught up to my logical brain yet. Maybe it's getting ready to catch up and that's why I'm stuck, too.
    C.

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    1. Anonymous, My case was a bit different in that my husband is/was a sex addict. But part of his recovery involved what therapists call "full disclosure", which is a session in which he has to tell me EVERYTHING. I gave it a lot of thought but ended up opting out. By then, I had all the info I needed and frankly didn't need/want to know any more. But that should be the betrayed's decision, not the cheater's. And yes, it can help to do it with a professional so that you both have the support you need. It can, of course, be pretty traumatic.

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  54. Hello everyone. I have two thoughts on the most recent posts. There are times when I ask my husband questions the response I get is "I don't know" or "there is no good answer for that." Some may say that those answers are not good enough. However I know, that he has answered so many of my other questions that when he says he doesn't know, he truly doesn't know. And I believe he doesn't know because there really is no concrete answer, or should I say there are a multitude of answers. Especially when it comes to the question as to "why did you call her again", for example. I respect the fact that many people feel that a person has to dig deep and get to the "why" so that it doesn't happen again. While at the same time, I am living proof that this may not be the case. I had an affair on my first husband and left him for the OM. I never had counseling per se to determine the why of the situation. It was simply a matter of eventually distancing myself from the OM and looking back and realizing it was all about my need to hear that I was beautiful or that I was smart or that I was creative. Truthfully, the why really didn't matter. I should clarify it didn't matter when it came to the question of will I have another affair? No, I will never have another affair. Having an affair is simply too painful. Too painful for the person having the affair and too painful for the person being betrayed. When I said this during a counseling session with our marriage therapist… I said, I will never have an affair again. The therapist made the comment that I don't know that and I responded adamantly yes, I do know that. I will never have an affair again; it is simply too painful Without provocation, my husband chimed in and said the same. And when she asked him what do you miss most about the affair… Not the affair partner but the affair? He said, nothing there was nothing about it that I miss ... Constantly feeling nervous ... I don't miss that.
    So, I realize that perhaps my view is different on this then many of you here. I do not need to know exactly why I had my affair to never have another affair. Having an affair and the aftermath of an affair is not the way I want to live. And for that huge life lesson, I am grateful.

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    1. I’ve struggled with wanting concrete answers to my questions about why, how, when, where, etc. too. Several times I have started to make a list of all my questions so that I could have it handy in case I should ever get the chance to ask them all, and I had to quit after several pages because I was sick of it, I felt the questions would go on forever and I would never be able to stop. I have asked many questions already, to which I have received satisfactory answers, but I always seem to have more. I have come to realize that when I have questions for him now, after those initial ones were answered, that what I really am asking for is heartfelt reassurance from him that he is done with the affair, done with her, broken hearted that he ever even considered abandoning me like that, and happily, whole-heartedly with me. The times when I have felt that from him, that he is committed to me and our marriage, I find my questions are not so urgent, and they actually have fallen into irrelevance. But it is a slippery thing to hold, this assurance that I seek from him, and I often find myself back to the questions again, stressing myself about it all over again. Still a lot of work to do...

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    2. Melissa- I really appreciate your point of view- especially hearing how painful having an affair is- how it makes you nervous all the time. These are the kinds of things that help us along when our spouses can't put their thoughts into words. I feel like a curtain has gone up and I can now say Ohhhhh- I hadn't thought of that. It helps. Thank you!
      And Lili- yes. Yes to all of what you wrote and the slippery slope. Yes. He asked me teasingly the other night if I was keeping score (about good night kisses- which is finally a ritual and had not been for a lot of our marriage) and today I told him that his tease really made me think, yes I am. I AM keeping score, and I hate that about myself right now. But I think your explanation is more on target- it's more about reassurance that I won't be forgotten about again. That he thinks about me now. So thanks to both of you for expanding my understanding.
      C.

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  55. Oh, and C, I am certainly still challenged with wanting my husband to pay more ... pay more penance. But then when I think about it I wonder what does that really mean? What does that really look like? About six/seven months after D day last year my husband grew a full, grizzly, out of control beard. He grew it because he could not stand to look at himself in the mirror. When he was finally able to shave it off, you could see a weight had been lifted from his shoulders. I have seen his sorrow; I have felt his tears, over and over again ... yet, as I said, I understand what you are saying C.
    Honestly, just writing this post and the previous one has made me realize and reflect on the penance that he has already paid. So thank you C, if made me rethink this and feel better. Love & Light

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