Feeling Stuck: Part 14 (FULL. Please post in 15...)

203 comments:

  1. Feeling so stuck. Lying here in bed next to my h on a weekend away with our toddler son. We are separated but occasionally share a bed, a cuddle, a kiss but 7 months on & I still struggle with even a kiss. Some days I feel like I am so confident in wanting to reconcile. Other days I just still can't believe what he did. Neither can he, he says it's like talking about some other mental person. I worry that in 7 months I still can't get further than a kiss, my barriers are so high I just won't allow myself. I guess if I can't ever let them down, reconciliation isn't an option. I'm so sick of being stuck on the rollercoaster - wanting to start my marriage again filled with hope from everything my h is saying and doing, and the next minute reliving every single one of his lies and not being able to even look at him. I think I keep posting the same thing on here so forgive me for being a broken record. When I feel like I'm making progress the next minute I feel like I've made no progress at all.

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    1. Coping,
      I think the whole one step forward, two steps back pretty much sums up our lives post-betrayal.
      Have you kept track of what it is that helps you feel confident in rebuilding your marriage? It's pretty normal to suddenly be fearful -- after all, it was our trust in our spouses that was betrayed. But if you think it's more than that (and it might not be; it might just be that your body needs a bit more time to let down its guard again), you might want to seek out a therapist who can help with post-trauma. Hyper-vigilance, a feeling of being unsafe, anxiety... all pretty common post-betrayal. But you don't want to stay there, whether you're with your husband or not.
      Assuming he's doing everything he can to support you in your healing, it might be that you simply need to make a choice, day in, day out, to check with your gut and then trust if there's no evidence that you shouldn't. If that's not an option, consider seeking help.
      And no worries re. being a broken record. It takes a really long time to heal from this. And all our stories pretty much sound the same. No matter the circumstances, we struggle with the same issues, worry about the same things, wonder when we'll be through this...
      Try and celebrate the progress you have made. Instead of beating yourself up for not being completely past this (and, honestly, seven months is still really new to this), see if you and your husband can celebrate the positives. The fact that you're still together. That you haven't killed him. That your son is nestled between the two of you. That you can kiss him. Those are all really amazing things that lots of people haven't been able to get to after betrayal. Be gentle with yourself, Coping. Be kind.

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    2. Coping
      Bless your heart! When I was at 7 months, I also was a broken record! Shoot, I am still a broken record on some days! I can't imagine going through this painful mess while taking care of a toddler! You have to take care of all those needs when you really just want to curl up in a ball and cry! It's so hard in the early months!! You get up in the morning and as s new mother you know you have to meet the needs of the child first but in order to do that you have to take care of you first. Your h blew his chance to be there for you once and your heart is too tender to allow him to hurt it again so soon! Go slow! Take each day and find one thing that makes you happy! That beautiful toddler is what will bring you joy! Your h will have to work his butt off to win your heart back! It was probably easy when you first fell in love with him! Not so easy now that he's showing you his selfish ugly side! You are probably not sure if you want to be with him or try to fall back in love with him and that's ok for now! You don't have to decide forever now just what you need today to get you and your child through one more day! If your h is really remorseful and willing to do the work to win back your heart, you will be able to move past this! The pain is so hard in the first months! It may always hurt in some ways but it doesn't mean that you can't get past it with lots of love and patience! My heart hurts every time I see a new story of betrayal! However, I have learned from all the stories I see here that no matter what I feel today, if I pause and take care of me, tomorrow I am stronger and more willing than ever to make my marriage work! You have to know that you are not the only one that is struggling with the feeling that you can't do this but you can if you take the time to love you first! I'm so sorry you are going through such a hard time when you should be having the time of your life watching your child growing through the most important years of life! Hugs to you and prayers for strength! We are all here for you!

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    3. Coping,
      Try not to be hard on yourself. This is a process. Sometimes the roller coaster is up, sometimes it's down. I'm at almost 11 months and while I feel confident that repairing my marriage is what I want, I still look at my husband as he sleeps and wonder how he was capable of doing the things he did. But I also know that he has great remorse and he struggles. He works hard at himself and our marriage and I love him, so I stay. I still get that punch in the gut feeling sometimes when I think of what he did, but I know he would take it back in a moment if he could. It sounds as if your husband is trying and so are you. You may find that it just takes more time.
      Both Elle and Theresa have given you great advice. I just wanted you to know that you're not alone in what you're feeling. I think we're all a broken record at some point.
      Hugs!

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    4. At 7 months I still wanted to kill myself. I was bargaining with myself not to commit suicide for just one more day. Every day. I was still screaming into the mattress on a regular basis. Please be gentle with yourself. I know 7 months feels like it's been forever and ever already, but it's still early in the healing process. You're still in shock.

      I'm at 21 months now. It does get better. That's not to say that I don't still have hard days, but I've healed to a point where I'm considering talking to my doctor about weaning off my anti-depressant meds. I think I might be stable enough right now.

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  2. Things go well...then things go so wrong. I think how far I have come from Dday. There were so many days that I just wanted to die. I mean that. I just could not bear one more day of feeling this way. It hurt so bad...so deep down, gut wrenching pain. I thought it was my fault - I made him step outside our marriage.
    I know NOW that is not true.
    But we have moved into our new home....I NOW have a good job - I can support myself... but I love him, I hate myself for loving someone who treated me like a second class piece of crap. For taking advantage of my obvious weaknesses - allowing me to be "SECOND". That I didn't deserve anything better than "last".
    I still love him. I want him. My H is trying hard - in his own denial way to be a better person. He is not consistent seeing his counselor - but thinks going to our couples counselor is really "good for him".
    I am angry at my H for never being forthcoming...but making me struggle to put all the pieces together. I know I act out of anger....but the more H denies, the more I have to put it together, He was with OW for 18 years.... and all he can say is "I am so sorry." I am beginning to think that this will never be enough. My kids were in elementary school .... and I didn't find out until my youngest was 1 year out of college.
    HOW CAN THEY SAY "I ALWAYS LOVED YOU" how the hell is that possible??
    H is trying - doing the best he can. But he does not want to get the individual counseling... in the 7 months since DDay my H has been 7 times.... he wants a damn pat on the head....an "attaboy" .... H says he was sorry, what more do you want...... H doesn't know what els to do or say.
    The most important question I have for my H is "WHY - Why did you stay with OW for so long"? H says it was convenient. H other response was "I didn't want to hurt OW. Really - but he would rather gut me. I just don't get it.... what the hell is wrong with me.

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    1. More than 2 years later and we are still slowly making ground--but still 3 steps forward, 2 steps backward. But for those of you who are here less than a year out, my best recommendation is to hold your H's to the fire and expect them to devote themselves to therapy, support groups (Sex and love Addicts is one), and deep self discovery. If he doesn't embark on a journey of figuring out "why" I think real marital healing is impossible. So read Elle's post on boundaries, because it is really hard to hold boundaries when we are in pain and desperate.
      My H's struggle to pull his head out of his ass has been excrutiatingly long. But we have made some new headway and I suddenly find myself feeling alot of love and affection--despite saying that I was ready to walk away this past week. I am not entirely sure what is going on with me to cause such a switch---I think after I said I would walk away, he opened up and showed me that he could recognize the selfishness and compartmentalization that he lives with every day. He humbled himself by openly talking about his shortcomings, addictive behavior, and the terrible way that he has treated me. I wasn't expecting it but something softened in me. Maybe because its my 42nd birthday.... One of the biggest realizations he had was recognizing that he could not have a relationship with his narcissist father, even though he loved him. He actually said that this must be how I feel about him. A huge "A-HA." I asked him what it would take from his father for him to be able to have a relationship and he basically stated the same the things I needed from him but wasn't getting (taking responsibility, behaving differently on a consistent basis, owning how he harmed other, caring about his son's feeling and not making things all about him). I have been waiting years to hear this.
      However, we are still stuck on whether to go the the event I was planning on going to until I found out the OWs band was playing--among many other bands and activities. It is a bigger trigger for him than me and he would rather not go. Our MC and my IC think it is a bad idea, whereas my sister, a friend, and the wonderful BWCs think I ought to go. I really want to go because I want to reclaim my life and it hurt that my H feels too uncomfortable about going. He is considering it and we will have to have some coping strategies if we do, but I am deeply sad that he isn't more gung ho about hanging in there for me and being by my side. Even if we go, I don't want to feel like this is about him. I honestly think that if we don't go, I will be set back in my willingness to stay together. It would feel like another blow to my pride and selfesteem. Not sure what is going to come of this.

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    2. Anoymous 1998
      I've followed your journey and can't imagine the pain of knowing that it lasted so long! That he wasn't willing to hurt the ow indeed! I'm so sorry it's still so hard for you! I'm still having issues due to thinking we are no contact with the my h ow and out of the blue she sends him a text to meet up for drinks to clear the air and no hard feelings! Hello! In our case we have a no contact order in place and have let the attorney know about it so I was very triggered the other day and have just about brought myself back from the edge again. It's not easy even when our h does finally get his head out of his own butt! Now for what's wrong with you? Nothing from my perspective! You've learned how really drowned in fantasy your h has been and how little he thought of your relationship. I stayed in that pit for six months and because she wouldn't and still hasn't left us to find our way with out her intrusion once again left me shaking the first day! I've since calmed down and will wait for justice to be served! Oh and he really does not know how he stayed so long! My h can't even remember details of the dates and times she manipulated him into continuing the affair. It was fear of my being hurt and my h never thought I would know! I'm sure your h thought you would never know and would not have to feel the pain. My h has had to watch my pain over and over again! Every time she contacts him he shares it but the fact that she just won't go away baffles me! If your h is making changes to understand what lead him to lead a double life and has made changes to not go there again then moving forward may mean you go to therapy for your own benefit and if he continues to do the things you need, then you can begin to feel the progress. Little bits at a time have gotten us this far. My heart hurts for you for at times I still feel uncertain about forever so for now I am still one day at a time! Hugs for your current pain and prayers for strength to get through one more day

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    3. Anom 1998 ... baffling indeed my h affair although casual and inconsistent for many years dates back 10 years ... with the last 4 being frequent and final year beinf full blown. The last 6mo b4 i found out seemed the more he wanted out the deeper he fell in ... his desperation grew her threats grew and the time money and lies down right breath taking a total shit fest and now looking back my h says what for if only he could perdict how i handled he says he would have cime clean and got out long before ... hard to swallow for sure and some daya i still shake my head in disbelief or yeah right mode but it seems to be a repeat on how the h explains it sometimes. Some days u feel the hurt others i can only stay in the moment to not feel like i am drowning once my h stopped trickle truth and gave me a story that makes sense i obsessed and felt less consumed the hurt remains i think of his actions as mini bandaids .... but 2 steps fwd 1 back .. its ur choice everyday and ur not crazy!!! Imperfect or anything but amazing loving ... just be you ok ... thats it ... your enough just being you.

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    4. Dear 1998,
      He was a cake eater, but was never in love with the psycho kindergarten teacher. She was an object. A mirror of himself. He loved the undivided attention and the "yes sir" attitude she gave him. The uncontested ego build up for whatever shit spewed from his mouth. No argument from her. So it was never about her at all. Just an object to build him up, validate him, validate his justifications and give him undivided attention. Anyone could fill her shoes.

      Ask - If I did what psycho kindergarten teacher did for you, would you then be happy with me?
      Ask - Would you be happy with yourself having me do what she did for you? Ask- Would I have to sell myself short to give you what psycho kindergarten teacher gave you?
      Ask - Is what psycho kindergarten teacher gave you even healthy?
      Ask- Do you need that high from attention?
      Ask- Upon being caught, suddenly, you wanted what you already had more than what was easy when faced that someone else will be happy with what you took for granted?
      Ask- Was it psycho kindergarten teacher or what you felt about yourself?
      My husband was able to separate in his mind how she made him feel verses was it her? That is why he told me it had nothing to do with her. It could have been anybody.

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    5. It's so ridiculous, isn't it? I asked my husband, when she asked to meet him, why didn't he say no, if he was so terrified and didn't really want to? Because he didn't want to upset her. WTF???!!! You didn't want to upset a woman you knew for a week vs your wife of almost 14 years???!!! That makes absolutely no sense. And he admits that. He says he looks back and can't believe he was that stupid.

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    6. Thanks to you all for your encouraging words... I realize I probably will never really know WHY...I don't know if I will ever get over "wanting to know why". Still unpacking stuff from our old house....memories of almost 28 years of marriage. I see dates on stuff, back to 1998, 1997 and I think "That fucking asshole was banging his girlfriend while I was trucking kids to and from practice" I threw out so many things...they are all tainted....every damn one. I have no desire to look any longer ...so I just put the boxes back and I will decide later.
      For now, I just wish he would be consistent ..... I just hate it when H falls back into the "selfish asshole" role....I just dig in and tell myself "I am making a conscious choice to stay". You know, Gee, one of my husbands responses to why he started the A with OW was "Well, I just thought it was going to be a fling" ummm like that was going to make it all better. NOT. Guess when you get involved with someone else you develop feelings...oh, except he says he didn't have feelings, but then said he did, but didn't love her, but then said he did - he loved her like a really good friend. Wait....I don't bang any of my "friends".
      None of it really makes any sense....I don't think it ever will.

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    7. A1998,
      The question of "why" tends to trip a lot of us up. And yet, the "why", even when we do know it, rarely satisfies. It usually amounts to the simple truth that hurt people hurt people. Those who are messed up and convince themselves that cheating is okay ("we couldn't help ourselves", "she made me feel important" blah blah cliche blah) often find equally messed up people. It's only when they realize what they stand to lose that the full impact of their stupid choice hits them. Call it temporary insanity.
      As for feelings, I think a lot of people confuse the feelings associated with affairs (of course, cheating makes a lot of people feel excited and sexy and interesting and all those other feelings we long-marrieds haven't felt in a while) with actual feelings for the other person. But it's not the person they like, it's the reflection of themselves they see in the other person's eyes.

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    8. Anon1998-
      I am one month-exactly-of two years out and I still want the answer to "why." Why didn't you stop? Why did you do things that you KNEW were wrong- that you knew would break my heart if I ever found out? (Didn't you ever watch Pinocchio???) I know logically that this was all about him- a lost, depressed human who could not talk to me about his problems. I know that having him answer this question is shaming. I know all this- I probably already know the answer- and you do, too. He continued to do it because he could. Because he didn't want to hurt me or her. It was easier to keep going with a double life than to stop. Because I didn't stop him- and honestly, with all the clues he left lying around that my brain just could not accept when I saw them- I think he WANTED me to stop him. He could not do it. Period.
      The regret I have is that I didn't stop him earlier when I could have and we lost more years. I finally stopped him after 10 years and a really obvious slip on his part that he could not explain away. The answer to why speaks to a defect in his character that he certainly doesn't want to confront, and that I don't necessarily want to admit he has.
      But we all have to find our way out of this mess. As far as I can tell, and I make no promises, this is the last door we have to walk through and we're finally out. It doesn't matter to me what answers are on the other side- I want whatever answer he can provide no matter how silly, stupid, or awful it may be. And I want the truth about it. Whenever I have a bad day/week/month...guess what's lying at the bottom of those bad times? It's the why question. So logically I know one thing, but emotionally I need the answers from HIM. It's not enough for me to "probably" know the answers- I need to hear it from him. That's how I end this mess.
      C.

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    9. I have similar feelings too. I am one day away from one year anniversary of dday one. I too struggle with the why and still some details. Never graphic ones . That is the last stuff I want to know. But I find myself going back and forth. I agree with Elle his "why" explanations never satisfy me. I have said to him our kids one not even a teenager would have known better. But my kids are not selfish like he was. They know right from wrong. He has given me so many answers to why and they are all over the map. I have read and heard from my therapist that is normal. My husband stands by once he was with his first ap once it was like he could never go back. He could never unring the bell. And it was easier each time after that. And he is a master at compartamentalizing things so that helped him a lot. And he said even though it sounded bad he felt like it was okay since he never cared about them and never wanted to be with them. It was a diversion and escape. And the one thing I can see is how hard it would have been to bring it up to me. When, how do you ever do that? I am resentful since I asked him specifically about other women when he went out or on trips. And he said never. I asked him about any issues in our marriage but he always had excuses or pushed it back on me. So I know they why will never be satisfied since none of it will ever be okay or make sense to me. There is no answer good enough for me. I would never be capable of what he did. And he knows that. So as far as why goes I have said I have to let that go. Even though i do think it is a reflection on his character big time if not a flaw.

      As far as more details I feel stuck on that. Things do not all add up for me. The details we are talking about are from years ago now. He does not even remember what day dday was, he knows it was in March but that is all he knows. I listen so carefully to what he says. I think it is possible it could be him protecting himself/me from any more details, him being ashamed and not wanting to admit it, him repressing/forgetting, him seeing things differently now. Whether it is called a fog or time passing he sees things so differently now than even dday. And I think that affects how he looks back at things. He just repeats how ashamed he is and how a day does not go by that he does not regret his actions and what he did and wishes he could change it all. So I think to myself how much do these details matter and can he ever tell me enough. Like when did he finally stop testing ap number 2. It was around a year supposedly before dday 1. But he says he has no idea. He knows they did not see each other for 15 months or talk on the phone just some texting. But am I to believe that. Does it matter? Then I think I worry more about current things like time with his friends. These are people in his life that I still say had to have some clue. He says no way. I just find that hard to believe. He says these were all his decisions. But if I saw a friend getting friendly with a man I would pull her aside stick by her side etc. lots to work though still...

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    10. Hopeful Thirty- I see two things we have- or our H's have- in common- compartmentalization and he never wanted to be with them- only me. He for sure cared about EAP #2- not sure about #1. So he can't say that. He's also said it was harder to break it off, so he just kept doing the same- living a double life. Here's what I don't buy- a weekend is a mistake- 6 months, a year? perhaps. There is a point where the "mistake" becomes a behavior. My words to him are explain the behavior. Because he compartmentalizes, I can sort of see how I was in one box, and the other two were in separate boxes, and the boxes never touched or connected. I can see it, but I don;t get it because I don;t compartmentalize. At some point, he knew it was wrong and made the choice to continue. That's what I'm interested in. Again- will I be satisfied with his answers? Probably not. The man cannot use words to describe almost anything- I didn't know that until we entered hell. So he struggles to find ways to talk to me. And he doesn't remember details- except for sports stats. (WTH??) So I doubt I'll be satisfied or even understand his answer, but at least he will have had to provide some kind of honest explanation. And I'll be satisfied with that. Won;t make any sense to me, but at least he will have been honest about it.
      C

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    11. Anonymous

      Wow so similar! What you write hits home and is so close to what I am dealing with. My husband is a bit better at answering me since he has the therapist career... But things don't add up. Like you I can get it for a certain amount of time. As I told my therapist I feel he is justifying, explaining, taking blame for what seems like several one night stands. Not two 10 year relationships. I know there is no good answer but I just want the truth. I get the same like it meant nothing and there was zero depth. He says he never knew when their birthdays were or celebrated any holiday and never discussed his life. I asked what did you talk about for 10 years and he has no idea. He then explains that everything was sporadic and he would avoid the women. It goes on and on and seems somewhat like a circular explanation. Things that stick with me is he says he tried to "break up" with # 2 over and over but never did till he finally did. However they kept texting, but he cannot tell me for how long or what was said. It was over a year before dday so now two years. He also said at one point he broke up with her since she wanted to go on vacation with him and that would never happen. Yet he also said he broke up with her since he wanted to be fair to her and her kids so she could move on. And he told me he had more respect for her than the first ap. These are sticking points to me and seem to fly in the face of no depth and I had zero feelings for her. This is where I struggle.

      One thing I know is that I had nothing to do with this. Was our marriage perfect no. But I was always talking with him about us and he always had a reason or explanation. This is on him and the more time that passes it is harder. I realize more than ever this his responsibility. He made every decision without me over and over. So now I sit and think about this at some level is who he is. Can someone change as much as he seems to have changed. Can he really keep his word? Can he be loyal? This is what is hard for me. I can hear his words which are great and amazing and he knows how to say the right things. However has he really dealt with himself and his actions. I know now more than ever I have zero control over him. So at this point can I allow myself to move forward and keep creating a life and give myself to this marriage. That feels like my million dollar question.

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    12. Anon, oh forgot to comment too about remembering sports data. Made me laugh. So true he never forgets sports details or exactly what I said in a discussion as if he has a transcriptionist next to him. But when did I start an affair before or after my child was born, when didn't start the second affair 2008 or 2009 not sure. How many times did I see this person no idea. When did I stop texting her no idea. Oh it was no big deal and meant nothing that I looked at her fb profile and her new bf profile almost every day. It was harmless really not a big deal it meant nothing. This is where I am stuck. It is so contradictory to what he told me was happening. I just feel like the reality of what happened does not match his memory.

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    13. Hopeful 30-
      Yep. And I'm sure many of the women here have similar stories about their H. My guess is that what we've experienced trends toward the normal. I can't tell you how many stories I've read here that ring true for my situation. All I can conclude is that many men who cheat have these same characteristics. While that makes me feel a bit relieved to know I've got lots of company, it also makes me question what societal messages we (men and women) absorb about marriage- how many men really do not see that what they are doing breaks their vows. My H never thought he broke his vows because he didn't kiss them or have sex with them- therefore, it wasn't an affair (think Bill Clinton) and he didn't cheat even though it was kept a secret for 10 years. I can't wrap my head around that, but it's what he thinks. I just keep shaking my head.
      C.

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    14. Anon-
      My H has said from the beginning he compartmentalized his "life" I realize our marriage was not perfect - but no marriage is. I feel taken advantage of - exploited to some extent. We actually went to counseling during the early stages of his affair...and I really had no clue my H was with OW. My H was very good at making sure I knew that the problems we had were on "me" .... and that is hard for me to get over at this point. My H started the whole A back when I was 35 ...and says it was just with this one OW. My H knew enough to tell me he thought the whole thing would just be a "fling". Why would that be any more acceptable.
      He will go to couples counseling....but cannot commit to individual counseling. He says he is doing his best. I just don't know. I don't think he is seeing OW again - but I don't know him anymore.
      The big hurdle for me is .... my H made a choice to stay with OW for so many years - he didn't want to hurt her. But - at the same time he didn't give a shit about me. I guess it is all up to me. I love my H so much it hurts me... How can I love someone who purposely hurt me and put me last for so long.
      I am only 8 months out - but my H is not putting in the individual work, he will go to couples counseling, but individual - H has all sort of excuses.
      I am tired....I will always go to my counselor - and our couples counselor - but my H will not put in the hard work. I am so sad....it's just the realization that I will never get what I need from my H. I am too afraid to leave him. I don't want to be alone. I don't think anyone will want me.

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    15. 1998,
      You can't control him but you can, of course, control yourself. Stick with your individual counselling. Learn to see your own value. As you begin to really value yourself and see your own fabulousness, you'll become less fearful. You'll begin to trust yourself more. You'll recognize your own strength and THEN you make a choice about whether to stay or go based on what you want rather than on fear. In the meantime, tell your husband that his choice of whether to seek counselling or not is his and not yours. Let him know that, of course, his choice is going to impact your own views about his willingness to rebuild a marriage with you. And that you're going to continue to try and learn from this and gain insight. And then leave it. Focus on you. It will be really hard but it's crucial to getting through this. It will feel uncomfortable. It will feel as though you're letting him off the hook. None of that matters right now. What matters is you getting strong.

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    16. I agree with this. I feel like I am in a great spot personally. With my husband I am guarded. I am still in therapy but alone. My therapist wishes he would go with me. I am just not sure that will happen. Yet I feel he needs more work than I ever did. I have found therapy has been a great support for me and allowed me to find my voice and make it known. But as you say we cannot control them. By all accounts he is doing nothing wrong yet what he is not doing. He is doing what is easiest for him. Not in a mean way towards me but I can see where he is holding himself back. I see it more clearly than ever. He has nightmares and will not deal with them. His guilt is so extreme. I see it so clearly he must have so many issues. It comes at a relief since over the 10 plus years I was at fault and I was the complainer. Now I have the most clarity I ever have had. Yet I am at s road block as to how to talk with him and how to express this to him.

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  3. Sisters,

    The truth of my situation is that my H has been engaging in an EA with the OW on and off-ish for the last 9 months (since the physical A was revealed). There are so many ddays I can't even count them. We recently had it out again and says this time it is really over that he is resolved and he is deeply sorry that this went on for so long and it took him so much time to arrive at this point. However, she will never be totally out of his life because of work they will have a "friendly" interaction and he will not make her feel like a used piece of shit that she is someone he cares for. ( I have never advocated for him to make her feel used or bad and regarding work I have advocated for a strictly professional interaction. ). At the same time over these month he has done many things to try and also repair our marriage. What is he doing??? You can't repair a marriage when your still having an A.

    I don't know what to do. I hurt so much and I don't think his relationship or interaction with the OW will retract to a place that feels safe to me. Part of me believes his interest is work and part of me doesn't. Also she has no one else in her damaged life and so is constantly reaching out to my H and I don't think will ever respect that he is married and act accordingly.

    There have been so many lies I don't know what to believe. I don't know what to do and feel so lost.

    Love
    Becky.

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    1. Becky
      I feel your pain! While our circumstances are slightly different I also feel like the affair is still going on... I don't know how to advise you if he really does not understand the affair is still currently going on. My h does get that part of it but we're dealing with an ow who is mentally unstable and have to wait for the court to deal with her! I think your h still has his priorities screwed up! If he wants to be married to you his friendship/ affair has to stop now! I'm still not sure we're repairing our marriage and don't think we can until she is out for good! I'm praying for you and I'm so sorry this is still happening to you!

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    2. Aww Becky. I wish I wasn't another bearer of bad news but from my experience and many other women's stories, I can say that it is really heard for people to end affairs. The attachment lingers on and the withdrawal period is very hard--think of it as a drug addiction. If he is having a "friendly" relationship, he is still vulnerable to falling off the wagon. I think boundaries and bottom lines are essential here.

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    3. Hi MBS. Yes I know that it is the case and it has been a very painful 9 month process. Both EA and PA affairs are so painful and sometimes in different ways. I think he may be truly be at a break through clarity point for himself, which is good. I am trying to be cautious and maintain the courage to maintain my boundaries.

      Thank you with love and support.

      Becky.

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    4. Becky,
      I think you need to decide just how much you're willing to put up with. If
      "no contact" is a condition of your reconciliation, then it needs to truly be "no contact". And that's not negotiable. There's no "friendly interaction". There's no "but we work together". You and he need to be allies and she is the enemy. If he can't see that -- or acknowledge that to you, she is absolutely the enemy -- then you've got bigger problems in your marriage and she is simply a symptom. I'm sorry to be so blunt but I hate to see some guy who's broken your heart expect you to tolerate such cruelty.

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    5. Hi Elle.

      Thank you for this response it did make me check in with myself and really evaluate current events again. I am in a place now where I feel myself with the courage to respect my self and honor my own boundaries. And I want to make sure I do it and your post prompted to do a gut check.

      Months back I was not here and when boundaries were broken I did not ensure accountability when I wish I should have.

      Anyway thank you!
      Becky.

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  4. I don't feel the affair is still going on, but it KILLS me that the OW is still working at his firm. As there are annual conferences, and many potential visits to the main office, I feel that I am never truly rid of her. The fact that he doesn't harbor any ill will toward her makes it especially hard for me. In fact, he admitted to me that he would love to say hello to her at a conference and hopes that her life is going well, although he said he never would, because of me. Does any one have any thoughs about this? It kills me that he thinks like this, however I know that we can't ever controls someone else's thoughts about the OW.....

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    1. 9 months after D-(EA but he was preparing to seperate and perhaps give her a chance), my husband admitted thinking about the OW and wondering how she was getting on, and hoping she was okay. A few days later she contacted him (yes, coincidental) and he stayed in friendly contact for another month before I found out, lying all over again. While I believe it remained just friendly, by his own later admission he had not properly dealt with how she made him feel about himself (we went to counselling after d-day2) and I'm not sure he would not have got more heavily involved again. It has taken another year before he really has a new perspective on the OW and realises what he thought was 'love' was a delusion based on his own needs. To me, it sounds like your husband has not reached the understanding he needs to to make your marriage safe x

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    2. Anon, I know what you mean. We are used to our husbands being on OUR side. How do we deal with the fact that they have loving, sympathetic feelings toward someone who wants to hurt us? It's like another betrayal.

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    3. Thanks, Fragments and Phoenix and Aelia--Your comments definitely give me some insight and perspective. Again, why BWC is such an amazing place. I have brought this up to my IC and our MC and neither seem to give me any advice on how to bear all this. I still plan to share my whole story, but I'm leaving the country tomorrow for a month (with my husband) so will do so, when I get back. Thanks again to all for words of wisdom.
      Morgan (aka Anon)

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    4. Morgan
      I can only hope your month away with your h can help heal and reconnect the ties that brought you together in the first place. Therapy will not tell you how to bear this, but will give you the strength you need to understand what you need to move past this and get what you need for your future! A brand new day starts tomorrow and you and your h have the opportunity to make it the best day ever together! Best wishes for you to weather the storm!

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  5. Thank you Theresa and Dandelion.

    Your support and understanding means a lot. It can be so painful and only BWC members really know how we feel.

    My H doesn't like the term EA but will admit he has maintained an emotional connection with her that is wrong and unsustainable if we are to continue our marriage. He says he has really broken it off with her this time and is completely resolved to not get caught up with her again in the manipulative traps. I do feel a shift in him and some of his actions. But there has been so much pain and so so many lies. I feel like a fool for hoping or believing him again.

    I did not have the courage to ask him to leave when he was breaking my heart these 9 months and now that maybe he has finally ended the affair I'm not sure I want to continue together.

    My heart goes out to both of you as well. With love and compassion.
    Becky.

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    1. Becky, our experiences are so similar. I can't offer much guidance, because I'm working through it myself. But I so understand how you feel. How I wish for a time when the situation didn't consume the vast majority of my waking thoughts. I wish I could have a conversation with my husband that wasn't full of subtext. I wish we could just go back to being us. Most of all, I wish I could be sure I knew the whole story. But I never will be. Doubts will always torment me.
      You are so patient, so courageous. I cannot imagine how I would handle it if they stil worked together. I agree with the other posters; friendly interaction is dangerous. It is full of pitfalls. She does not deserve to have her feelings considered in this matter. If she didn't want to feel like a used POS, she should not have gotten involved with a married man. You are the injured, innocent party; you are that's one who deserves to have your feelings considered. JMO, but I can't seem to get that point across to my H, either. Damn dumsels.
      Hang in there, Becky. Do what is right for yourself, and please keep posting. I think about you a lot. Hugs!!!

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  6. Fellow Warriors,
    I feel like I'm coming out of a fog. Another early morning conversation yesterday with my husband about the OW. I know that obsessing over her is so unhealthy. The hatred I carry for her, the desire to hurt her, to destroy her world is unhealthy. I know that as an outsider, I can tell those of you who feel this way why the OW doesn't matter, why she's not worth your energy. I've been having a much harder time applying those words to my own situation. My husband tries to encourage me to shift my focus, to focus on where we are going rather than where we've been. But I seem to be bogged down with anger toward her even though she's been out of the picture for nearly a year.
    Something in our conversation yesterday set off a lightbulb in my head. Do I hate her more than I love my husband? More importantly, do I hate her more than I love myself? I'm letting someone who doesn't deserve it to continue to steal my happiness. She's only still in the picture because I allow her to stay in my head.
    I so want to be rid of her. I pray this latest bit of wisdom sticks with me. I know in the past it's been easier said than done. Any advice from those of you who have been successful at this?
    Hugs!

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    1. Dandelion-I feel the EXACT same way you do right now. ( By the way, I am 10 months from dday now.) I even feel like my IC and MC both don't understand how I can still be so overcome with hatred for her. I know it's unhealthy, too, but I can't get her out of my mind. She has an extremely common name, that I hear day in and day out, and the triggers never seem to stop. And knowing that she has gotten away with all of this without any repercussions makes it all the more difficult. I am praying that time running it's course, will help me (along with continued therapy.) But it's an agonizing way to live.....
      -Morgan

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    2. Hi dandelion

      Yes - I have felt this way!!! For a while a I hated the other so much I could really feel it poisoning my heart. I thought of so many terrible things to do to her and was very tempted to actually do them. But I knew I was making myself very sick with hating her at that level.


      I think I mostly past this point (my memory of these past 9 months is a littl fuzzy) through meditation to keep my heart open and lots of journal writing saying all the crap I want to and stand up for my self and say things I would never actually say. You know very very hateful shame filled things aggressive things.

      Don't get me wrong I still hate her just not in an all consuming poisonous way. I got to a point I knew I need to let it go. Plus I changed my narrative to what is much closer to the actual truth. I know enough about her to know that she really is a damaged and emotionally unstable person. She suffers already and has very little in life. Where as I have known and will continue to have so many blessings.

      I hope this helps. Don't let hate rule your heart in the end it is unhealthy for you.

      Love and support
      Becky.

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    3. I agree with all of you. For me I couldn't tolerate my husband being around either ap ever. A funeral came up that both could be there since the person that died knew both women. Well I told him if he felt he needed to go I was going to be with him. But there was no way he was going alone without me. We are a team. And if they contact you I must be shown. One did contact him and he deleted the text. We decided at the time together that was the best tactic to not engage anyone, go radio silence.

      As far as the ow well there are two. I can say I am not sure if I will ever not hate them or resent them. By all accounts they were aggressive with him and neither had anything to lose. Their behaviors are so the opposite of how I lead my life. I have thought of confronting them, calling them, writing them. In the end I decided I am not going to let them consume any part of my life. I want them out of my life. We are lucky they both got the hint and so far very little contact has happened and none since my husband did not reply to them. I was lucky he was already "broken up" with one and other other one had a boyfriend and they just emailed each other and had not seen each other for 6 years. So some time had passed etc. I am not sure I will ever think anything except negative things about these women. So yes I do hate them and might always, it makes me sad since I am not sure I have ever hated anyone. But I will not let them consume me or take away from my life any more than they did. My focus is on myself, my marriage, and my kids in that order. Good luck!

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    4. Thanks, Morgan and Becky! I have to say that since that moment of clarity, I feel somewhat better. If she pops into my head, it's not white hot rage. I still hate her without a doubt, but I'm more and more aware of how truly screwed up she is. As Elle often says, hurt people hurt people. There's no amount of thought or analysis that can bring me to any conclusion other than she's just really screwed up. I may have to accept that I'll never understand why she is.
      I'm also unfortunately getting to see some of the family dynamics that have most likely played into my husband's issues. As i mentioned in a previous post, his father has recently been diagnosed with leukemia. My husband left yesterday to be with his parents as his father has taken a turn for the worse. Being away from him, I'm almost seeing things play out like an outsider. It's so dramatically different from my own family. It's definitely given me a different perspective and a bit more insight into his world. Hard to believe I've been with this man for coming up on 16 years and married for over 13 and I never saw any of this. Infidelity has definitely made me a whole lot more aware and, I suppose, insightful.
      Hugs, my friends!

      Theresa, any suggestions on where to start for someone interested in trying meditation?

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    5. Dandilion
      Omg' yes! I have been so push back and forth from hate/ sympathy for my h ow! I'm so thankful I do have my faith in God to understand her mental state and the understanding of what led my h to this private hell! While the rational side of me gets this aspect, the emotional me questions ...So at times, I lets the hate overcome me, scream at the ow you got what you deserve for what you have done.... And then I ask my God to forgive me of my human feelings and go something to just make me happy!
      Hugs for you thinking and not wanting to be a hater! Sometimes it's ok!

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    6. Dandilion
      I have learned meditation is within myself. Sometimes it includes music, sometimes it is just sitting by my pond listening to the water splashing, sometimes painting with my water colors . There are also websites that you can google search and use to get started. I choose my path and even though I've found some days tough, I can usually find my inner peace by the stillness of simple prayer. Sending you rays of sunshine if today is still cloudy in your neighborhood ! Hugs!

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    7. Dandelion,
      I think that really was something of an epiphany you had. It's when we realize that we are the ones handing over the controls to this person that we can finally create change. You control your thoughts. It can be really tough to shift them -- absolutely. But with time and practice, you can relegate her to the 'not worth thinking about' heap.

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  7. I am feeling so terribly conflicted. The last 2 weeks have been tumultuous. When I found his phone 2 weeks ago, he swore he was getting her through a hard time and was done with her. I asked for a divorce, but delayed when he asked me to. He cried and seemed so sincere. Last weekend we did our play; it was a wonderful experience. But I found another old phone before the run started. He reacted angrily at first, denying any wrongdoing. But before our last performance together, I had confirmed that he had been texting with her all week. He swore it was because he was keeping her at bay, convincing her to stay away from the play. On Monday and Tuesday we had conversations in which I questioned him and again explained that, while I will always love him and want to stay friends, trust is as dead a the proverbial doornail; it's never coming back. He said he could live with that. I said I see no future for our marriage, and wanted to move out. He asked me to please give it another day or two.
    When I am with him, things are wonderful. He is loving and attentive, and it feels wonderful to be together as a family. He is constantly hugging me and telling me how much he loves me. Apart from him, though, I know that I will never trust him, and I've got to let him go. I just can't do this anymore.
    His attitude is so great. It he had done this 3-4 months ago - and stayed away from her - I think we could have made it.
    What I don't understand is what he really wants. He's bending over backwards to demonstrate that he wants me and our marriage - but if that's the case, why can't he leave her alone? What is his game? What does SHE want? He said she wanted to come and see the play because she is "proud of him". This relationship is obviously still full of tender feelings, and the amount of texts was phenomenal.
    I feel like she is a cancer, eating away at my life. I have tried to cut her out, but apparently the only way to cut her out is to cut him out too.
    And I cannot live day in, day out, with the doubts and suspicions. That also eats away at me. But the only alternative is to turn my life - and my kids' lives - upside down.

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    1. Oh Pheonix. My heart goes out to you! I have been in this place. I know how painful and confusing it can be. My husband (so far) took 9 months to come to a resolution about the safe boundaries for our marriage and being way more open and honest with me. Just over these last 2 weeks have we had this break through and his actions not just words have made a difference.

      If it was me I would be very very wary of pretty words without actions. Sharing passwords, and info ect.... Frequently checking in. Maybe a joint speaker phone call where he makes the final break with her.

      It is so super painful but it took my H many months to process things and be able to break with her and respect critical boundaries. I know this was about him - his guilt and shame, insecurities fear ect ... Not that he actually wanted to be with her. However that I did not make it any less painful. And I am still taking it one step at a time and keeping a eye out for things that don't add up.

      I would also suggest maybe separating for a while instead of jumping straight to divorce. Take some space to rest and think. We have talked about serious separation several times and have had some short (max 10 days) separations when we needed a cooling off period.

      Also I know I would be lost without therapy or even a serious book can help. There are some good books on Infedelity that can help provide a road map on WTF is happening!!

      I am thinking of you with love and prayers.
      Becky.

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    2. "He could live with that"???

      How can HE live with the destruction that he has done in your soul? How could HE "settle" for killing off the essential foundations of your marriage in order to preserve the quality of HIS life?? How can he dare to look at you everyday, claiming to love you while KNOWING that you cannot trust him or be confident in his "love"? How can he be satisfied to let you live like that??

      My husband could easily (and did) "live" with a lot of things that he KNEW he had done to kill off my trust and love for him. How does THAT speak for how he cares about ME and the quality of what MY life is like living with HIM??

      But one day, a few months ago, I think mine finally "got it". He said: "I want a divorce...to put you out of your torment". That is the best, most bitter/sweet thing that he has ever done for me post Dday...he finally understood that I am a real PERSON with real FEELINGS too...something that he never really considered until YEARS after he kept getting caught, and after watching my heart turn cold and then numb towards him. Just shoot me already.

      I gave him no resistance...I even helped him to find his own place to live...and signed the Settlement Agreement.

      Why? Because at 63, he STILL cannot give up his desires...he is and always has been double minded...wanting the best of both worlds. He KNOWS and admits that he will never stop wanting "more"...that he does not know HOW to stop wanting more than what he had. More excitement, more adoration, more accolades, more variety, more fantasy, more risk taking...more more more...from other women. He can never be satisfied with just me.

      Yeah...I get it...when I was with my husband (at home in the evenings), everything seemed wonderful too. But it was when I was NOT with him (once he stepped his feet over our threshold) that he showed me that I did not exist except as someone who he had to conceal his unfaithful heart from by the time he got back home. Switch masks...must have made him weary...all that. The EA's, the flirting, the lies always began again in earnest once he stepped into his "other world"...I simply became invisible to him once other women came into view. It was only a matter of time before I would find out more...and he'd have to deal with confrontation.

      They...whoever they are... can have him...a restless soul.

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    3. Phoenix, have you heard of hoovering? It's when someone has realized they're about to lose you, so they suddenly do everything you've ever wanted to suck you back in (hence the term hoovering, like a vacuum cleaner).

      I'm not a mental health professional, but I've been following your story, and that's the impression I get. Every time you are about to leave, suddenly he starts love-bombing you, saying all the right things, promising that this time, it's really and truly over, and you stay. Then once things start to calm down again, wham! You get hit by something else. You're about to leave, and the hoovering starts again. The problem with hoovering is that it's always temporary. It's a way to get you to stay, but doesn't result in a lasting change.

      I can't say for certain this is the case with your husband. Maybe he really does mean it this time. But maybe he doesn't, and wants to have his cake and eat it too. Only you can decide if he's used up his very last chance with you or not. I just hate to see you keep getting your heart broken like this.

      I went through this cycle with my abusive narcissistic personality disordered mother for almost 3 decades before I finally realized this was never going to change and I broke free.

      Here's a link to an article about hoovering. Hope you find it helpful.

      http://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/hoovering

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    4. Phoenix
      I'm so sorry your pain is so raw again! I can feel your pain and I have many of the same feelings. I'm still waiting to hear that the ow has been held in contempt of court for breaking the no contact order in place less than a year not once but twice! I think it's this last time that made my h finally see what a mental case this ow really is. I think he has also realized that her version of her divorce left him thinking she was being abused by a manipulative husband when she was in fact the one that manipulated her relationship both with her x as well as my h. That realization hurt deep in my h heart as he thought he was just being a friend by this time. I'm coming to terms with the extent of my h totally not understanding women in general but this one in particular is not a real woman like those of us here! I think most of us would have walked away if we were treated the way I now know my h tried to end his affair by neglect of her... But in her case she just pursued him more urgently until he just told her he didn't care what she did just leave him alone... So today was the first time I have seen my h admit that she was/is truly mental. I'm praying for peace for all of us who have fought our way through one more day!

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  8. My h in beginning had fell back in w ow ... trickle truth and again deceit. .. devastating i know! Thats when i went ape shit made demands set boundries and started holding him accountable no exceptions i better see action and firm guidlines in regards to ow! Your heartbreak your rules is chanted on this site. If your shooting from hip and anger then i say those are legit slow down if you are truly speaking from heart soul and are just done for your own well being than i say go with your gut ... or if u just dont know focus on you and sit idle till its clearer ... walk 10k steps a day start baking painting reading anything u like! Its true a h does have to be all in ... it took my h falling back in and me going nuts give a shit or lose it all for him to get his head out of his ass which was prob ...3 or 4 mo after dday! I believe you are at or under 6mo? Its tough its work but mostly its your choice everyday. U are in control. Your h needs to get it together agreed totally. Action not talk. Set your boundaries or pack his shit and move on ... you are in control even if it doesnt feel like it ... i know hard so many lives involved changes to dos. Focus on now and you ... i know exactly how u feel!!! No right or wrong its all about you. I am 10 mo out im seeing marginal improvements if i think to far ahead i feel like im drowning staying in now focusing on me and trying to find sparkle in each day helps.

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  9. I need advice. My H won't go to the event with me. I want to go as a way to reclaim my life. This event was supposed to be one of the things that was going to help me move on and claim a new life with new people who don't know about the A. I don't want a whore to dictate my life. I am planning to go to help out and I also suggested to my H that he could join me after her band is scheduled to play. I was thinking that I would even email her and request that she leave immediately after her performance. The event is for my son's school and she has no reason to be there since her children attend another school.
    Any suggestions? I am willing to go by myself but I really needed my H's support and to be able to have him stand up for me. He feels too fragile and vulnerable still [insert eye roll]. He is dealing with love and sex addiction and claims that he is trying to avoid drama and triggers. HIs personal therapist and his sponsor think he should not go. But I am pissed that he can't stand up for me. In fact, he hasn't done much of it, though he claims to loe me. I am afraid that if he doesn't come to support me, I may never have faith in him again. He let me down so many times after d-day. Things haven't slowly gotten alot better but he is still pretty focused on himself. I think he is on the right trajectory but I think I am looking at another 3 years before I can forgive him. Coming with me would make up for so much of the shitty treatment he put me through but I think he is still slowly trying to absorb how much he hurt me. I don't think he realizes how hurtful it is that he won't come to be with me.

    Anyway, what would you ladies do? What do you think I should do?

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    1. MBS
      I'm not sure if the event has happened but I do understand your need to reclaim your space with your h! I have spent the past two years reclaiming every inch of space in our house and my yard and am slowly reclaiming the whole town. The one thing I have found is that I finally found me again and have no desire or need to compete with the dimwit my h chose to have his mid-life crisis with. When my h ended his affair his ow couldn't let go not him. I think that's the part I lived through that gave me the strength to put one foot in front of the other and keep on living. I suggest you go to the event with or without your h! Hugs and peace sent to you!

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    2. If u can hold yourself together and it wont make u crazy go ... nothing worse then shouldve couldve wouldve. Ur h not wanting to ... might have less too do w you them him. . Maybe hes not strong enough ... to have shame in his face .. or maybe he just doesnt want u to hurt anymore or i hope those r the reason maybe ... i know how this might make u feel less supported or even like he owes u to do what he wants. If u go u wouldn't suggest telling her where or when to be or stay ... but u do as u desire its your show ... let her be trashy u be classy

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    3. Hey MBS,
      Has the event taken place? I've been out of the country with very spotty wifi...but would love an update.

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  10. Hi guys. I haven't been here in a while. The H and I have been in a good place and I haven't wanted to think about it...yet here I am. H is out of town for work for the first time since dday. I don't think that he has been unfaithful again. My intuition isn't screaming at me like is was before. However, dday happened 2 days after he returned from his last trip when the OW sent me a fb message. As he his on his way home as I type this, I find myself terrified. I set my boundaries and consiquences before he left and he accepted them. My therapist said that this would make me feel more in control and it has. Until today. Today I find myself having "flash backs" about everything that happened before and all of the lies that he told. I am only 6 months out but it seems like forever. Everything in our lives has changed. Do you guys ever look at your Hs that you know so well and wonder if you ever knew them at all? Am I the only one that gets fighting mad when I think about all of the time I spent wishing for him while he was spending that time with somebody else? Am I the only one that has considered having an affair of my own because I can't think of any other way to make him understand the damage that he has caused? I enjoyed my little piece of goodness but I find myself in the middle of yet another meltdown...

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    1. Rae
      No you are not alone in the way you feel! We have all had our own meltdown at one time or the other. Six months... I was still a bundle of up today and down wallowing in the mess of it the next... Over and over these emotions would roll me back and I had a hard time with all of that. My h travels for work and I was alone much of that first year past dday. What I learned to do was grab on to the small bits of happy and just lest the other emotions run their course. I also have read this blog from beginning to present and then read it again to give me clarity and courage to deal with the mess this has caused. I'm sorry you feel so alone in how hurt you feel. I think everyone of us knows those feelings all too well! Just know that you are stronger than you feel and today is just one day but tomorrow can always be better if today is a hard day! Hugs for your struggles!

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    2. That is a totally normal thing to feel. I remember writing in my journal that I felt like I'd married someone who didn't exist, because the man I thought I'd married would never do that to me. I wrote over and over that I felt I didn't know him at all, because the man I thought I knew swore to never do that to me.

      All of the feelings you have described here are normal and understandable. Please remember that although 6 months seems like forever, it's a very short time when it comes to healing.

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    3. Those flashbacks are quite common and speak to the post-trauma that many of us experience. Betrayal is trauma. And with circumstances lining up similarly to your trauma, it's natural for you to flash back to those horrible out-of-control feelings.
      It's important, I think, to keep talking with your husband around this. See if you can communicate what you might need from him to convince your brain that this is past stuff, not present stuff. And Gee is right -- six months isn't so long in the trajectory of healing from betrayal trauma.

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  11. Hello ladies, I am six days into my husband being on a boy's vacation - and although I've been doing fine tonight I'm bothered. I have always been a bit anxious when he and I are apart.-This has nothing to do with the affair has more to do with my anxiety/fear of abandonment. Because of this, I am not typically the one to reach out via text or phone call when he is away or even when I am away. I leave the calling and texting up to him because if I were to call and or text and he did not respond I would become anxious. So he called me about 11 AM today and then I didn't hear from him until about 10 at night when he texted and said that he was going to bed. I have realized it is not that I am fearful that he is with the OW or another owed W, I simply wonder why is it that I want to talk to him, more than he wants to talk to me? Now granted, I am the one at home and he is the one on the vacation surrounded by his buddies. So, I think to myself do I want to be with a man that needs so many days away from his wife? And one who keeps such limited contact when he is away? Or, is this an issue I will always have? I will speak to my husband about it when he is home, but I guess first I need to figure it out for myself. Good night :-)

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    1. Melissa
      Like you I wonder what my h really needs from me for his needs past the sex connection. My h really has no clue to his real needs past the affair crap...like you I have affirmation needs and abandonment issues from childhood. Thought I was past all that but I'm finding out that the trauma of betrayal brings all those issues back to the surface. I'm dealing with a mother that is 78 years old with dementia, a crazy x ow from hell, and a h that just checks out of all the emotions that everyday life brings to the table. Meanwhile I'm planning my daughters wedding and I'm getting through the next day knowing thank God that my h finally got his act together enough to let the ow face her own demons...so I pray for you to have strength to know what you need to get through one more day just as I feel like I can only do one day at a time! You give me strength in your struggle to get what you deserve! Love is what you seek... Same as the rest of us! Peace and happy thoughts thrown at you!

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    2. Melissa,
      I think this is really just a matter of personal preference. I'm the one who initiates less contact with my husband when I'm away or when he's the one away. He loves to talk. Me...less so. I guess the question for you is whether that personality trait, combined with everything else he's put you through, is enough to put him in the "my life is better without him" category.

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  12. Phoenix, I'm so sorry. As for your lives being turned upside down? They already are. You are making perfect sense. He apparently doesn't get it. You do. May peace and strength be with you. I know you will do what's right for you and your children.

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  13. Rae, I have felt the same way when my husband has been out of town. One thing that helped me is I can text or call him anytime. He will reply asap. His trips were not for work. But when I call he answers his phone. That goes for almost anything. Even during the work day. I can text him and as soon as he is done with a patient he will call me. It has helped me a lot and I feel like a priority which I never was. He has even cancelled patients and come home to talk when we were early on. Granted he was still lying then but I liked his actions. I get flashbacks and I do wonder why am I so loyal. How could I accept a life with someone that is not loyal and puts himself above everyone else. Even these other women they are not special and could have been anyone.

    As time passes I am starting to feel better most of the time still conflicted a little. Now more than ever I know who I am. And I will be true to that. I am not some who would betray anyone for any reason, I am honest and loyal. I can even tell my kids anything I have done. I have nothing to hide. That is my husbands biggest fear one of our kids will find out. I try not to be too moralistic but I have realized that we are two very different people. But I like myself and will not give or bend on who I am. I will never have an affair and never considered it. I will give my all to make this marriage work but I have my eyes wide open. I am guarded right now and my therapist thinks this is smart and good. He says I need to protect myself. In the end whether this marriage lasts or does not I need to work though all of this. I know full well divorce is no easy answer or quick fix to this situation either. Time is helping so much. Also focusing on me and being brutally honest with my husband. I am not mean at all but I am not holding back. Things are improving slowly but we will see if it is enough in the end.

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  14. I found out 2 years ago my husband had cheated on me with what I thought was a great friend. The affair began 5 months after we said I do and lasted for several months. I found at the same time he had been taking to people online and looking a lot of porn. I was absolutely heart broken as I had just found out I had a miscarriage as well. I did not find about all of this for nearly 2 years and after I found I was quick to move on. We had a baby a year after I found out and I thought everything was great. When our baby was 6 weeks old (which was a year ago) I found out he was paying for private movies from an online place, talking to these people and was talking to someone else in our town. I also found out he had already been with this 2nd person before and did not tell me before when I found out stuff the 1st time. I have since been living a personal hell that I cannot escape. I am seeing a counselor but I feel like I don't want to forgive him. I am so angry and hurt and just baffled at the fact he could so easily ruin his family life. My husband is very well known in the community as well as his family and I don't want to embarrass them but I cannot let it go. I don't even feel attracted to him anymore. I have not left because of our child but I'm drowning.

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    Replies
    1. Unknown,
      I'm so sorry for what you're going through. If you've done much reading on this site, you've no doubt discovered that most of us know exactly what your'e going through -- we've gone through it too.
      The important thing to know at this point is that you get to choose what happens next. He's violated your vows and clearly has some issues. He lied to you when you discovered the first betrayal. If you want to even consider rebuilding your marriage at some point, get clear on what you need from him -- full disclosure, therapy, whatever. YOU make the rules.
      And then...give yourself time to figure out what's next. We often feel we need to immediately respond to betrayal, that staying, even a minute or two, is somehow weak. But it's important to respond to this in a way that takes you where you want to go rather than simply follows some knee-jerk reaction. Anger is natural, of course. But you want to make a decision from a place of clarity.
      Get yourself a therapist and begin the process of healing from this, whether you stay or not. Betrayal is traumatizing and it's crucial to have support.

      Delete
  15. CONFUSED

    Before I start I want to thank you ladies and this website, just hearing some other stories over the last few weeks has kept me sane. For a little while I thought I was on my own. When I say I'm thinking about trying to work things through with my h my family and friends think I am mad or stupid or both!

    My story needs some context. In Feb 2014 I had a serious accident and a horrific back injury that left me unable to walk unaided. It took months to find out what was wrong and over a year of treatment to fix it. My hb and I had been together 5yrs and only married for 9 months when this happened. He was initially fantastic but in July of that year I noticed his behaviour changed dramatically. He was distant and withdrawn, I knew straight away something was wrong but he wouldn't talk to me. I checked his phone bill the following month and found 600 messages plus phone calls to a single number.
    He strongly denied anything and only after separating would he acknowledge this as an EA. He said he would cut a all contact with her and get some help. His mum died from a genetic illness when he was 17 and he had been a carer for her for many years before this. He never dealt with that so when I was ill he didn't know how to emotionally cope.

    Since then we have spent the last year or so re-building. It was initially really hard because my h said he didn't know if he loved me then with some time and work things just got better and better. It felt like we were back to us again! My health has vastly improved and I'm now totally back to normal day to day living.

    However D-day 2 can on 17th January when I found some messages from ow. We talked a few days later and I found out it was a 'full' affair for two weeks way back in July 2014 but they had never stopped being in touch. He had even met up with her last time he was out of town visiting family in October last year. On that same trip he also had an over the clothes drunken fumble with a family friend.

    I moved out that day. We separated to give us both some time to figure out what we want but said we would not start seeing other people until we had figured out if we had a future or not.
    After a few weeks he seemed to really wake up to how stupid he's been. He is sorry and this time he really wants to confront the reasons why this happened. He seems shocked at his own behaviour and has taken responsibility. But he does still say he doesn't know what he wants, if it will be too hard to try and move past this. He agrees with me when I tell him I deserve better.

    More importantly I don't know what I want. I'm so confused. I spend every day thinking about it and I can't get my head straight. One minute I don't want to be in same room as him ever again and the next I'm making plans to meet him. I saw a counsellor and have been doing a good job of taking care of myself and getting my sense of self back. I am still a total mess some days though and it can just hit me out of the blue when I least expect it.

    Now the part that might make you all hate me a little bit. To make things worse I bumped into his childhood bf on a recent visit home. It was a drunken night out and we ended up chatting for ages. He had been cheated on causing his marriage to break up so wanted to tell me how disgusted with my h he was and how he was having a difficult time supporting him as a friend. We ended up having a drunken kiss. Now I feel like I'm just as bad as my h! What a stupid thing to do just because someone pays you a bit of attention. I feel so angry at myself. I can't decide if I should tell him about this or not...

    I am still in reeling from all of this, I don't know when my life became a soap opera! I still love him but I literally don't know what to do next.

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    Replies
    1. Confused,
      Yeah, you were an idiot for kissing his best friend -- we'll just get that out of the way. But it also makes it easy for you to see how quickly we can screw up when we're looking for someone to fill something inside of us. That's exactly what your husband was doing. He likely panicked at the thought of having to take care of you. Enter OW who made him feel exciting and interesting and not at all like the resentment caregiver who never dealt with his anger and bitterness over having to take care of his parent. And she never really exited, stoking the excitement and fantasy.
      Whether you two can rebuild a marriage depends completely on your desire to and your willingness to do the really hard work of owning up to the roles you've both played (and this is NOT to say you're in any way responsible for his cheating. You are NOT), the baggage you've each brought into your marriage and the emotions that need processing.
      I would recommend telling your husband what has happened but within the context of a counselling session. He will be hurt. And it might further convince him that there's too much damage to recover from. But you each need to mature, from the sounds of it, and decide whether marriage is worth the hard work or not. There isn't a marriage in the world that isn't work.

      Delete
  16. Confused I don't hate you, you have handled this situation incredibly well, 'a drunken kids' is all it was and more importantly you knew almost immediately it didn't feel right, stop giving yourself a hard time love. Your not the one with issues your husband is. Carry on with the therapy untill you do know what you want. Is he having counselling?. Don't make any decisions untill you are sure about what your next step is. You've had a shock to the system and your trying to process it, give yourself some time and look after you. Keep us posted and were all here for you. Lots a love xxxxx

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  17. I want to offer thanks and hugs to all my friends who have been holding my hand through these latest crises. H and I had a good talk tonight, and we will be separating as soon as I can find a place to rent. My dad has offered to pay my expenses for a while. H will live in our house for a few more weeks until we get it cleaned out and he's back to work full time (he was offered a job last week). Then we will sell the house. That is the plan.
    I am heartbroken about my kids, and I hate imposing financially on my dad, but aside from that, this feels like the right decision. I love that man, but I will never be able to trust him. And I can't live like that anymore.
    But I really am worried sick about my girls. It is cowardly, but I am going to put off telling them for as long as I can.
    I love you, Warrior Friends! You are the strongest, bravest people I know. Except for my little old Grandma, who is also a warrior.

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    Replies
    1. Lots of love, Phoenix. Of course this will be hard, but your kids would have suffered if you stayed and continued to be hurt. Children can pick up on these things. My husband and I were careful not to fight in front of our son. I did my crying behind closed doors. But he still picked up on it and started having lots of behavioural problems in school. Things have improved as we've healed.

      I'm glad that you feel confident that this is the right step for you. We've got your back. XO

      Delete
    2. Phoenix,
      There is nothing -- NOTHING -- "cowardly" about any of this. Quite the opposite. Your daughters will thrive under your strength. Best to you.

      Delete
    3. Dear Phoenix,

      Where (with who) are the girls going to live with?

      Some "practical" things for you to consider...sounds "cold" but you will be glad later that you were not blindsided by the emotions that you now are experiencing.

      I do not know what State you live in. Regardless, when you do separate you are still considered (as far as the law is concerned) fully "married" UNLESS you file for a Legal Separation. This protects you against any of your husband's actions that you could otherwise be held liable for...whether criminal, medical or financial. As a "married" couple, (without filing), you are on the hook for ANYTHING that your husband does regardless of whether you live with him or not...AND regardless of whether or not you "consent" or "know" of anything that he chooses to do while you are living apart. He could run up horrible debt or get sued for something unforeseen and you would also be responsible for half.

      Please go see a Paralegal...they are a fraction of the costs of what Lawyers charge to find these things out...they wont charge you a dime for a consultation. You and the girls are LEGALLY entitled to financial support also if your husband earns money. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise. Do not waive your legal rights because of how you presently feel. When things settle down, you will think more clearly rather than feeling sorry for him and throwing caution to the wind.

      If your husband lives in the house and stalls the sale of the house...are you prepared to live w/o that money for YEARS?

      What State do you live in?

      My husband and I separated also...just 6 weeks ago. But I did my homework prior to all that and filed for a Legal Separation to protect each others "interest" in the event of a worst case scenario. One very likely worst case scenario includes my husband getting a girlfriend and him allowing HER to dictate what MY life and finances would be like under that influence. So we took care of all the legalities PRIOR to his moving out so that I could have peace of mind and so that husband could not pull a fast one and go back on his agreements.

      Think about it!

      Delete
    4. Oh damn ... and take the help ... i know so hard to do ... kids are resilient even though it feels like your hearts breaking for you ... for them ... maybe even for your husband. Your life your choice everyday ... every minute ...ill say a little prayer for you and your family an adjustment no doubt .. but one you will figure out. Sighhhhh big sighhhhh step on warrior. Change is never easy ... yake care of you. ... wounded not broken.

      Delete
    5. Phoenix, keeping you in my thoughts. I know this has to be an incredibly tough decision, but not one that you have rushed into. Take good care of yourself and let family help you.
      Hugs!

      Delete
    6. Phoenix,
      I'm sorry for all that you've gone through but I admire your strength and your clarity and the grace that you're handling it all. Your girls are going to see that and learn from you how to manage their own inevitable pain. I know you'll give them permission to be angry and sad and devastated. And that you'll (hopefully) not take responsibility for their pain but simply witness it and support them through it. You are making the best choice you can for yourself to live a healthy life and to be the best possible parent to them. They may not see that now...but the day will come when they'll understand.
      In the meantime, our wonderful Phoenix, keep us posted. I agree with Sweetz that I hope you'll get your ducks in a row and protect yourself financially. Of course you want this to be amicable but you also want to be fair to yourself. Your father sounds like a hero. But, as a mom, I'm sure you know that his ability to help you through this is a comfort to him. We all wish we could spare our children pain but we can't. We can, however, pay their bills when they need us.
      Hang in there, Phoenix. I hope you know we're behind you all the way.

      Delete
  18. Hi Elle,
    I got the announcement from SPeaKS today and thought I'd write. The affair is supposedly over now, but my soon to be "X" is living 4 hours away and has my 14-year-old son with him.
    I am still caught up in the aftermath two years later while trying to finish the divorce. My son recently brought it up that his dad started seeing "her" again. I had to go back to work after being off for 14 years, pay for expensive counseling, go to an infidelity support group which was worse than not going (we even had a speaker who is noted here that seemed to be trying to sell her book....) The one book I read that I found the most helpful was "Not 'Just Friends'" written by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D. I believe that she passed away a few years ago. It was more helpful for me to read something that a professional counselor who was very experienced in this, and she also wrote from the perspective of all three parties. Of course she recognized the hurt one the most and sided with her. At the time that it was written I believe there were far less cases of infidelity going on. Never-the-less, it always has been horribly painful.
    The book helped me feel a little less like an emotional prisoner and helped me get back on my feet. I have a job at the local hospital now, am working on keeping the house, and hoping to get my son back as the primary caregiver.
    The thing that amazes me was even though he'd broken up with her over a year ago (more than 85% of affairs don't last), my son said that he is beginning to see her again! Which brought up the feelings of being paralyzed even though it's been so long ago now - close to two years.
    I've never seen her as she lives so far away (I did see pictures of her though on fb and a few that he shared with his son....), but if I ever did I would look her in the eye and tell her how devastated I was when I found out that my x-husband had had an affair with her.
    One of the weirdest parts was how he chose to openly share what was going on with my son. Most parents don't chose to do this. All I can think of was that he truly believed he was doing something ok as our marriage had been on the edge for a while. Still.... it was totally inappropriate.
    Thanks for the support here.

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    Replies
    1. yeah...sounds like your husband struggles with healthy boundaries. No surprise, of course. He likely wouldn't have cheated in the first place if he understood them.
      I think it's best to give as little thought as possible to the OW, whether she's in the past or not. He's not your problem any more.

      Delete
  19. I am feeling incredibly hostile right now. Tonight, after we take them to the fair, my husband and I are going to sit down and tell our girls that we are getting a divorce. My children will never be the same after tonight. I know I need to keep my emotions under control. but I am feeling so much anger toward my selfish H and his selfish skank for making this necessary. Forgiveness was my Lenten goal, but is very hard to keep in mind right now.

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    Replies
    1. Phoenix,
      Start by forgiving yourself for feeling a very justifiable anger toward your husband for creating this situation. And yes, your kids will never be the "same" but what does that mean? You'll never know what "same" means. Maybe this change will create incredible new opportunities for them that they wouldn't have had. Maybe they'll develop a strength in themselves that they didn't have. Maybe they'll become closer with each other. Who knows. What we do know is that life sometimes sucks. And we know that it helps to discover just who we can count on when life sucks, especially ourselves. Phoenix, I know you'll love your kids through this. It's natural, of course, to want to spare our kids pain, especially pain that we think is in our control. But this isn't. Your husband made a horrible choice and the ripples are still being felt.

      Delete
    2. Phoenix, you will forgive when you are ready. It took me years, but it turns out that my trying to force myself to forgive people before I was ready to do so actually stunted my healing. I was repressing my natural and justifiable feelings of anger and hurt and trying to skip to the acceptance part. It will come when you are ready. And sometimes, you will feel like you've forgiven one day, and then the next day, the anger is back again. That's okay. A wise member here noted that forgiveness is fluid, and that's really helped me.

      Delete
  20. Phoenix big hugs to you and your girls. Let us know how you get on. Thinking of you at this difficult time xxxx

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  21. Thank you, Sam and Elle! The fair trip was cancelled due to rain, and my H talked me into waiting until next Friday night to tell the kids about the separation. I vented my hostility at him and he took it.
    Dandelion, Wounded, Sweetz, Sal, and Gee, I cherish your messages of support. Sweetz, thank you for your advice. I am consulting my lawyer about the "legal separation" issue. I live in Alabama. We are going for an amicable, non-contested divorce, but i know I need to be careful and protect myself. I was the one who suggested that I be the one to move. I didn't know if he could afford it, and I was afraid he would procrastinate moving. Now that I have made the firm decision to end the marriage, I am ready to move on - delay is painful to me. But we talked about it again, and he suggested that he be the one to move out after all - he says he has enough to get an apartment. He has promised he will find something as soon as next week.
    He blames a lot of his difficulties on alcoholism, and is going to AA meetings. I think there's more to it than that, but it's an excellent place to start, so I am supporting him.
    I think this is finally becoming real to him, and my haste is painful to him. Yesterday he asked me if we could "turn it around" - save the marriage.. My answer was an immediate no. He has told so many elaborate lies. Over and over and over. I know it's because he's unhappy, but I can't imagine going back to that. I am so, so done. I get teary when I think about my girls, but I have to move on. I may or may not be able to trust someone again - but I will never trust him. I've cried and grieved and railed and screamed, and now I am sad, but calm and resolved. I'm ready for a new life, where I can be free of deceit and suspicion. Where I can have freedom and peace.
    Thanks for the listening ear, sisters. It is so good to have a place to talk. Hugs to all of you!!

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  22. Elle, I am praying that you are right, and that they will learn some positive lessons from this about strength and love in adversity.
    One of the hardest things, I think, will be that they will never really be able to understand why it happened/ I'm not about to tell them the truth; it would do far more harm than good. So they will simply have to be told that Mom and Daddy have problems, we've tried really hard to work them out, we can't, and those problems have absolutely nothing to do with them. It won't be enough, but it wil have to do. We almost never argue in front of them, so this will come out of the blue.

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  23. Sweetz, I am sorry you are going through this too, but it sounds like you are handling things really well. I admire how strong and clear-minded you are. Is your divorce contested or non, and what state are you in? I am in AL.
    We want to have shared custody. Within reason, I'd like to let the kids make some of the decisions about what days they are with whom. They are 10 and 12. And I know how completely helpless kids can feel at a time like this; I want to try to give them some power and control over their circumstances. Within certain guidelines and limits, of course.

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  24. Phoenix,
    I am in CA. Nothing was contested. We owned our home outright, we both have our own separate businesses, and all the kids (6) are grown and gone. We are early sixties.

    I kept the house (we only bought it three years ago!)...I have to pay him $25,000 each year for the next 8 years to buy him out of his share.

    We each kept our own business...there was no savings or retirement to haggle over. We both waived Spousal Support (in the event that Karma hits) so nothing is left hovering over our heads regarding the future.

    We used a Paralegal rather than a Lawyer because we came to our own agreement...and we did not want to spend thousands while Lawyers drug their feet or "created" other issues and made everything complex and more expensive. I wanted this over asap because I was taking advantage of the timing of his "earned guilt"...guilt makes an otherwise aggressive man more passive and therefore more reasonable.

    I also wanted to get it over with BEFORE he found another woman who could then easily influence his decisions to my disadvantage. We did this fairly.

    I would, if I were you, take your husband up on his offer to be the one to leave...if nothing else, to keep the girls in familiar ground. If you can afford to maintain that household, all the better. Get everything in writing and signed off by the Courts!! Your dad can $till help you regardless.

    We did a "Legal Separation" rather than a Divorce...for Biblical reasons...but if my husband gets someone else, he will likely cave to a divorce to please another woman...but that's okay, I never want to be married again nor spend years looking over my shoulder and playing detective again. Ten years of his immorality was enough for me. I am at peace now...life on MY terms feels good!

    I did ALL my "emotional death throes" through the entire marriage...I was finally at the same point you are by the time I caught him in this last EA. Calm and focused.

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    Replies
    1. Sweetz, it's good that you were able to resolve things so neatly. I hope we can do the same. Our situation is different, of course. We have the kids, we are in our 40s, and we still owe a lot on the house. And then, of course, there is the fact that he may or may not have a job. Now that I've made my decision, I really want to get on with it, but it seems like it's wait, wait, wait.

      I did not know you could use a paralegal; that is excellent advice. Fortunately, there is a dear man, whom I've known for years at my church, who is a lawyer. I trust him to look out for my interests, and to deal fairly with me.
      I don't know how I will feel about it in the future, but right now I definitely feel the same way you do: I am not interested in another relationship. The idea of putting my faith in someone, of letting my life get tangled up with theirs, is repugnant. I just want to get untangled from the relationship I've got, and finally have some peace. Like you said, on my own terms. I am so desperate to get to that place.
      Calm and focused is what I am most of the time, but sometimes I still let depression take me. Last night was tough. Fortunately, I have people to talk to.
      BTW - six kids?! Now I'm REALLY impressed!
      Hugs to you, sister warrior!

      Delete
    2. Phoenix,
      Our Legal Separation cost $900 out the door...we went together and had it done...so no separate Lawyer fees. That amount included the Paralegal as well as the "Court Filing Fees". If your husband gets a Lawyer, that Lawyer may see dollar signs and cause your husband to undo many of your agreements to make money off of him. They get paid for every phone call, everything they read, everything they can manage to keep doing through the whole stinken process. A Legal Separation is basically the EXACT same process as a divorce and it is a flat fee. It protects you so that whatever else happens, you are not entangled in any way with your wayward husband going forward. It takes 30 days from the time of filing to finish...unlike the usual six months that an uncontested divorce takes. If I were you, I'd go the quickest and cheapest route to ensure a favorable outcome while your husband is still around and perhaps feeling regrets of some kind. After he is gone, he may become very resentful and start dragging the process out over minor issues...or he may find another woman for "comfort" and SHE will be entangled in making the decisions about your agreements.


      Please be careful about employing "dear" Christian Lawyers. Ask about the TOTAL fees up front...they wont be able to answer that because they cannot predict what your husbands Lawyer might do/cause. Even Christian friends are driven by the possibility of earning a good living. We have paid out the a$$ hiring people who were Christian and who seemed to give us a fair deal up front...but who later tacked on more and more money as "add-ons" later.

      You are quite young compared to me...so I can see that later, one of you would want to get married once again. Usually, a man has a new woman within 6 months after a separation or divorce...that is a FACT. Keep that reality in mind.

      HUGS!!

      Delete
    3. BTW dear Phoenix...alcoholism, as well and porn/cheating and not providing for family is due to BAD CHARACTER and it is that simple. Blame shifting, self pity and lies are all part of that bad character too. Your husband is looking for something to pin his desires for his wrong doing on...dont buy into that. He is responsible for his choices moment by moment...to fight his carnal desires or give in to them regardless of the costs or how it affects you and the girls. He KNEW all along how it was affecting you and kept doing it anyway. So he loves what he wants to do more than he loves you or the girls. This man is NOT marriage material. It will take YEARS of good behavior and honesty for him to redeem his life and make consistent progress that is believable. Him going to AA meetings is a start...unless he hooks up with a woman there. Then you will know what he is all about. Watch out for the "hoovering" that Gee warned you about in a post dated March 10th. It is a very subtle tactic to get you pulled back into the same pit that you are trying to crawl out of.

      You will get depressed from time to time...this is normal, but push through it. It will get better over time. No one goes into a marriage expecting for it to end this way. Death would be easier.

      Delete
  25. So I know this will upset a lot of people on this site: I've been struggling to "move on" after my husband's repeated infidelities over the past 6 years (3 "sexting" 1 PA that I discovered just over 8 months ago.) The thing is, I have forgiven him for the affair(s). I know why he did them, and they really had nothing to do with me. The problems I had/have are that 1) I am not his last and only forever and ever, and no matter how we move on or try to improve our marriage going forward, that will never, never change. 2) I couldn't look at him without thinking he was Satan and I was this poor innocent saint/martyr. (During all this time, I ran the house, the family, the business, everything, and managed to turn down offers from interested men, while he drank and whored.) So after feeling like the biggest, ugliest, most undesirable schlep for the past ~9 months, I decided to do something to make me feel better precisely by making me feel a little worse. I contacted an old friend that I'd always had a crush on. His marriage was over, so I didn't have that guilt hanging over my head. We've gotten together a couple of times to have a beer and play sports (that my hubby isn't into.) I told myself that was as far as it would go. I was wrong. We ended up having sex, and it was great! No, the sex was just OK, but having someone make me feel desirable again was amazing, and now I can't look in the mirror anymore and feel like a poor, beat-down fricking saint anymore. And now my H won't be my last forever and only either, just as I am not his. Is this what the experts recommend? Nope. But I know myself, and I know that I would never have gotten over the imbalance and injustice that would never go away for the rest of our lives. Now we are on a little more even footing, and I can't be so judgy of him anymore. Just over a week out from what I did, and I'm still feeling pretty good about it. If my H ever asks, I won't lie to him, but I won't volunteer it either because I didn't do it for the revenge of hurting him back. I did it so we could be equals again.

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    1. Anonymous,
      While I understand the impulse to do what you did, I urge you to really think about whether it's taking you closer to what you want. I wonder if you're getting caught up in some sort of score-keeping rather than focussing on how to rebuild a marriage based on honesty and respect. Lying by omission, as so many of us on this site know, is still lying.
      Be careful, Anonymous. Though I think you've illustrated to many of us how cheating happens. It's about looking to someone else to make us feel better about ourselves.

      Delete
  26. You are right. You are now equals in that you are now both cheaters. I have a feeling this will not work out as well as you might think it will. Not coming clean to your husband about your tactics, feeling good about your infidelity, and possibly being an OW to a possible unsuspecting wife (do you know for sure that he was actually divorced,ie. "marriage was over" is not the same as divorced and unattached) does not bode well for marriage reconciliation. May I suggest individual as well as couples therapy for both you and your husband? And also may I suggest you to be on your guard, for you are very vulnerable to slip again into this other man's arms, and possibly making an already fragile situation even worse. Support is here for you, but please think carefully about your next steps. Sincere best wishes to you.

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  27. Dear Pheonix

    You are in my thoughts and prayers. You have made a difficult decision, I admire your strength and the process you went through to get to this place. I know your courage compassion and faith will help you on the continued journey.

    Please continue to protect yourself and your long term interest in this new phase. You deserve what is best for you.

    With love and support.
    Becky

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    Replies
    1. Thank you, Becky! That means so much to me. I will continue to pray for you also. In many ways, we are walking this road side-by-side. One step at a time, but we are making progress.
      Hugs!!!

      Delete
  28. So I'm writing this just to write it out and be done with it...maybe...
    H finally had the conversation about why he couldn't stop himself (2 EAs with sexual aspects over 10 years). As Elle and others have said, the answer was not satisfying- and I already knew the answer- figured I did.
    But the answer to the question at least was honest. He said he had a need that he felt wasn't being met- a need within himself (sexual and self-esteem/ ego needs). So he dealt with it by opening the door to two women who made him feel important or useful. (Context- he had recently retired and realized afterwards he should not have.) He doesn't understand why he didn't stop but thinks he justified what he was doing by feeling as though these needs were being met and so he needed to continue doing what he was doing. (How buying one of them sexy underwear was a way to feel useful is beyond me.) So he said, that in a strange way he turned into two people. (He compartmentalizes- can you tell?) And that no matter how hard it was to understand, he did love me all those years. (I really don't believe that part, though. I think we probably have different definitions of love.) As we talked, I asked him if he thought that in some way he wanted me to catch him and stop him (he was very careless and left clues all over the place- if only my brain had had the nerve to confront those clues). Or if what he was doing was a way to get my attention and make me pay attention to him? He thinks maybe. I did ask him if during this time he thought that I no longer cared for him and he said yes, so there's a justification that makes more sense to me.

    It is so frustrating trying to have a conversation with him. The man cannot put words to his feelings or thoughts. I find this so strange and unexpected. It's like I have this Fantasy H in my head who can tell me all the things I need to hear when I need to hear them, then there's Reality H who can't- just.can't. It's funny how until our old marriage blew up I never knew this about him. I still wish he'd been able to talk with me- I don't know why he couldn't except that he thought I didn't love him anymore- not that it would have prevented any of this, but at least neither of us couldn't say we hadn't tried.
    I did ask him what he would say to #1 (the slut-bitch-whore as I call her) now that rational H was in charge. THAT answer was really unsatisfying- I'd tell her this is inappropriate and I'm married. (HA! Like she'd care...) But it was a Reality H response.
    So as I wrap this up....from Day One I "wanted to understand" what had happened. Do I? Yes and no. That damned first step. I do not understand that and never will- and I don't think he will, either. I really believe that he told himself I didn't love him anymore, so it was ok. I've thought that for a long time. And I think, in the end- that is the why he couldn't stop.
    But what a waste. And what a loss. He said if he could undo all of it, he would, but he can't. And I AM very grateful that he stayed all those years and now is working it out with me- I know so many men would just have left. I hope this is the end of the tunnel and that all the boxes are checked. I think they are. I guess I'll find out!
    C.

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    1. I understand what you mean. I also did not realize how many feelings and thoughts my H hid from me until this all came out. And my H, too, has constructed a fantasy world of epic proportions.
      I wish you all the hope and good luck in the world, I hope you really are coming out of the tunnel. But be wary: these men who have spent years hiding and pretending and sustaining themselves with lies do not find it easy to stop. Even if they really do think they love you. Hopefully, yours will be able to turn it around.

      Delete
    2. C,
      You might find that more understanding comes with time and with your husband's continued curiosity about why he did what he did. Or this might be as much insight as he can muster. But we forget that we all change and evolve and learn. None of us is who we were or who we'll become.
      Your point about what you assumed re. your "fantasy H" is a good one and it's one I often write about on this site -- how we construct narratives about our lives. And how our husbands construct narratives that give them "permission" to cheat. Their stories are often about how their needs aren't being met and that, somehow in their twisted logic, makes it "okay" to cheat. We all need to be more tuned in to what we're telling ourselves so that our choices are based on reality, not fantasy. And, as terrifying as it can be, we really need to start talking to each other about what the other is feeling. Not just in our marriages...but with every relationship.

      Delete
    3. I replied once but guess it's still floating around in the ethernet..
      I don't even remember what I said, but I wanted to thank Elle and Phoenix for their insights.
      I had what I believe will be my last scheduled counseling session the other day and talked about the fantasy vs. reality husband. I'm beginning to accept reality H I think. I realize I need to put fantasy H away and deal with who I've got. At his very essence, he IS a good man, and I'm grateful for that. I just have to learn that reality H cannot express himself the way I'd like him to, and that's ok as long as he keeps trying- which he is.
      C.

      Delete
  29. Crazy ow. I am so sorry that so many of us are going through the same thing. My crazy ow made up a slew of crap on Pinterest and then got a PPO on me, saying I was the one posting it. The crazy ow lives in a very liberal college town nearly 2 hours away from me. So it was easy for her to concoct a case and have it approved by the judge. My dday was June 3, 2013. The PPO was served to me on Thanksgiving Eve 2014. My lawyer advised me to not appeal since the crazy ow referred to my profession several times in the request for the PPO. My lawyer believed once the crazy ow got my testimony heard, she would get a transcript and send it to my licensing board. So here I sit, insult to injury.
    Having said THAT, I will say to you that you WILL get better, the crazy ow's actions WILL end (not as soon as any of us would like), and you WILL get through this. Stronger, happier, and even more amazing than you are right now. I promise.
    AND I am with my husband of 35 years. I decided not to throw him out, to listen to what was wrong, to try to understand his character defects, and to make the last decade or so of our lives together as good as we want it to be. And it's pretty good.
    This site is stalked by the crazy ow so I may get tossed in jail for my post. But I am NOT going to hide. I will continue to speak my truth.
    Speak your truth too.

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    Replies
    1. Suzanne,
      I'm so sorry for the insanity she's dragging you through. And for what? It's petty and ridiculous.
      Have you got a second opinion from another lawyer? Doesn't make sense to me that you're being advised to let her railroad you and then make YOU suffer for it.

      Delete
    2. Thanks Elle. I am considering a second opinion since you suggested it! I find myself not looking at options quite frequently. It's amazing what PTSD (post traumatic stress syndrome) does to a person. I'm stronger for it, yet as I read and reread posts from fellow survivors, I can't help but think there's an easier way to obtain self-growth! lol

      The words we all cling to but dread (since it's HARD and PAINFUL): time will heal all wounds.

      OW are petty and ridiculous. Or they woulda found a man who wasn't married! Silly cows.

      Delete
    3. Good. Let us know what happens. Just seems like crazy advice...but sometimes the law is crazy. But let us know.
      And yes, if only self-growth and transformation could be painless.

      Delete
  30. Part 1
    I'm 25 months out of D-day in a 36 year old marriage. Yes, I still have questions. Why? I'm like that flashlight you get out of the junk drawer when the electricity goes out. I want to see what is in front of me so I don't stumble over a chair, stub my toe and fall. I want to see what is coming. I have developed a fairly good bullshit meter and needed some reassurance this week. I have not asked questions for about six weeks, which is a record for me so far. This conversation with my husband helped me but triggered me at the same time. I ask rather than have this build up and explode. I have asked these questions a million times. So my betrayed sisters going through hell, shitfest, pain, denial and anger. I thought this may help someone in some small way.

    I told him: He was a cake eater, but was never in love with the psycho kindergarten teacher. She was an object. A mirror of himself. He loved the undivided attention and the "yes sir" attitude she gave him. The uncontested ego build up for whatever shit spewed from his mouth. No argument from her. So it was never about her at all. Just an object to build him up, validate him, validate his justifications and give him undivided attention. Anyone could fill her shoes. His answer: You are right.

    Is what psycho kindergarten teacher gave you even healthy? His answer: He paused and said obviously not.

    Do you need that high from that type of attention? His answer: You still don't understand that was the lowest point in my entire life. You still don't understand I didn't care about anything. I felt unloved, unwanted, un-cared for, un-masculine, and no attention was given to me. I didn't think you loved me anymore. All of my own making, I never blamed you. NOW I don't need that type of external validation to feel like a man. I'm the happiest I have ever been in my entire life. I'm happy with the new me. I like the new me. I have never felt this free before. My whole life I always held a part of me back. Yes, it makes me feel good when you tell me I look nice, thank me, or compliment me on something I have done. I like attention from you.

    Do you still fear what I think of you? When it came to certain issues you shared those with psycho kindergarten teacher and you really didn't feel threaten to lose because you just didn't care about her. You didn't care if you lost her. Even for mundane things, like the stupid stuff that you would complain about with psycho kindergarten teacher about life. You just want to be seen in a different light with me because, I matter. What does it matter if you are vulnerable to me? The damage is done. You can't look at you any less than you did when I caught you. His answer: Yes, I still fear what you think about me. What you think about me does not mean I will deceive you to make myself look good. In the last two and half years I can't think of anything that I haven't told you. What is an example? (I couldn't think of one that was non-affair related. DUH)

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  31. Part 2
    He is not entitled to a second chance. That is my choice. You chose to have your fun at my expense. I suffered and was willing to really give you a chance. Do you feel you have a false sense of marriage stability? If so that is how I felt when you had an affair. Its how I felt when you think "Our whole recovery was a lie." His answer: I'm always afraid you are going to leave me. Every time 100 percent I come home I always get an uncomfortable feeling you might not be there.

    What was it that made you start to change the way you thought about her? His answer: I discovered fairly quickly I made a bad mistake and I was in a big mess. I was afraid she would tell you. I saw what she did to other people. I didn't do a good job of getting out of it and I didn't know how. So I just kept on trying to keep her quiet. I felt I had no reason to get out. I know you don't believe me. You call her a whore right? That is exactly what she was. I paid her in wine, flowers, dinner for sex. The sex was nothing like we have now. My response: You said I was afraid I would find out. You try to make it sound like it was in my best interest. Having sex with psycho kindergarten teacher up to the last doesn't sound like you were afraid.

    Do you think why she kept called was it she thought if you would risk your marriage for me, you must care for me. (I forgot to ask this question)

    Psycho kindergarten teacher wasn't your friend or was that part of your justification? (I forgot to ask this too)
    Friends do not lie and deceive.
    Friends are not selfish.
    Friends do not encourage lies to your family.
    Friends do not set out to raise havoc in your life.

    Did you ever have to defend yourself with her? What you were doing what you thought or how you acted? His response: No

    What made you say the affair was dwindling? Letting go is not a single event. What were the events that led up to dwindling? His response: She is not like anyone I ever dated. I always dated independent women. She whined a lot. She had a ton of baggage. I got tired of her calling me. You don't know how many times she wanted me to come over and I said no. She came to the house 4 times but asked to come over about 20. I refused sex on multiple occasions. We didn't have sex as much as you think. I know you don't believe me. There was always a crisis with her. She talked a lot, I just sat and listened. You know how I can tune someone out. Like I said I realized I made a huge mistake.

    Did you ever wonder how she was getting along? Did you ever think about how she was doing without you? Did you ever think how hurt psycho kindergarten teacher would be if you left her? His response: I didn't care about her at all. No never.

    Did ever discuss with you a marriage breakup? His response: No

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  32. Part 3
    What is your most painful memory of the affair of psycho kindergarten teacher? His response: None, I didn't care.

    I have a revulsion for her, why didn't you? Is this fog stuff even real for you? His response: I guess what you mean is the stuff I said right after I got caught was justifications. I was trying to justify what I was doing. That was my fog, trying to justify my actions.

    Was it a lack of feelings for her that you threw her under the bus? or was it your embarrassment that you had a relationship? His response: I didn't care about her at all. I had no feelings for her.

    She said you were her boyfriend, brother and father. What was she to you? His response: Maybe a big sister.

    What was your part in escalating the affair? You knew what was going to happen the first time you accepted her invitation to dinner? His response: I guess I did.

    What did you do to present opportunities for the affair? His response: you are not going to believe this but she presented the opportunities. I never had to do anything she made the opportunities happen. I didn't have to do anything to create an opportunity.

    What fear do you have for yourself? His response: Cancer and losing you.

    When I say you remember I said I was not made of steel. You responded like my statements were nothing, why? What did you did you say to yourself? Did you not have the capability to care? Were you totally selfish? What did you say to yourself? What is different now? You say you don't feel sorry for me. Why? His response: I was a total asshole. I treated you badly for our entire marriage. I'm going to make up for it for the rest of life. You are my priority and all I think about is making you happy.

    During your dating years, you said the other night, you felt sorry for one girl but used the other girl for casual sex? Do you group women into two categories? You think casual sex is ok. I don't. We have a difference in character. You think as long as a woman is separated then she is fair game to have sex. I don't. I have been thinking about the difference in our character as it relates to psycho teacher. You went to church every Sunday and church camp each summer. I assumed you had strong morals. His response: I do have morals but I guess my morals are flexible. I can see how I reverted back to casual sex in the affair.

    Do you ever put your needs above my needs? His response: No we just seem to mesh NOW. It's not just you or just me it is us.

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    Replies
    1. LLP,
      Your husband gets it. Whatever happens between the two of you, I suspect that he'll never cheat again on anyone because the memory of how awful it felt is visceral to him. Like your husband, my husband was at the lowest point of his life. I think it's possible to use people/sex to essentially "medicate" pain. When you have no regard for yourself, you're willing to do some pretty low things. When you think you're worthless, it's hard to value those who think you're not.
      It took me a long time to really understand why my husband cheated but I get it. I get how much pain he was in. I get how his life experience hadn't given him to the tools to talk about it or seek help.
      It sounds, LLP, as if you might be getting it too.

      Delete
  33. I need to say how grateful I am for this site. I blogged back in February about the rage I was/am dealing with and the support I received was awesome. My H A started off as a friendship, they met while walking dogs in the park 2 years ago. The last 8 months became "physical". So from Feb to October of '15 they were "Physical". He/we are doing the hard work pf rebuilding our marriage and I know that we are headed in the right direction. He talks alot about comaprtmentatlization. He talks about how easy it was in the begining to lead 2 lives. To have fun times with me as well as the OW. What I am struggling with is now that we are 1 year out from the "physical " part of the A I find myself thinking that all the fond. memories I have during that period are tainted. For example this time last year was my birthday weekend. I remember having a great time, he says that he remembers having a great time too ...but how could he when he was f$#king another woman?.... All my memories until October will be tainted.He admitts to being in contact with the OW during our 2 family vacations that occured during this time frame.....Has anyone else had these "tainted " feelings .
    and again thank you for this site

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    Replies
    1. I've struggled also with understanding the compartmentalization my H did throughout the affair. I stumbled across and interesting blog post two days ago. The author and his wife speak on infidelity having experienced it in their marriage. I've read a few of his blog posts and it comes from a relatively religious viewpoint. She also has a blog which I've taken a look at but not really thoroughly. His post on compartmentalization is, as I mentioned, interesting. I plan to share it with my H because I would like to see dwhether or not he agrees with the description the author uses.
      http://newlife.com/emb/compartmentalizing/
      My H admits to compartmentalizing, but to me, sometimes the lines between the two lives were a little too close and a little too blurry.

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    2. Thanks for sharing that link... been trying to understand that concept for a while. The shoeboxes are a good way of explaining it.
      I wonder if sex doesn't get shoeboxed for a lot of them in the first place because they're made to feel ashamed of it early on?

      Delete
    3. Dandilion
      I read the link you shared and I had one of those aha moments that I wasn't listening when my h said it but yet it was what he was saying. He was explaining how the how I could not and probably never will understand but how he had to put everything in his world in separate boxes and only concentrate on each one at a time and that included work and family and church and anything else that comes into his world. I found understanding in the link you shared and tomorrow I plan to ask my h to read it, and my question to him is ..is this what you meant when you explained how you could do that and I will share his answer.... But even if he can't answer I get compartmentalizations given what I've learned from this blog!

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    4. Aelia and Theresa,
      I'm so glad it was helpful. Compartmentalization is on my list of things to talk about with our therapist this week. My H kept trying to explain it to me but the box analogy made it a little clearer. I still have some questions for him but we've had a busy week and they aren't earth shattering questions so I figure we can deal with them at the appointment with the therapist.
      Aelia, I've never really discussed my husband's early views of sex. We married in our early 30s and both of us had pasts. I suspect his was substantially more varied than mine, but our sex life was good and so we just never talked about it. Fast forward 10 years... Married now with 2 kids, sex just isn't priority so porn creeps in. Fast forward 5 more years... D-Day comes and I find out that not only has he had an affair but the porn was a bigger issue than I even realized. In hindsight, I wish we had talked more openly about our views. Just assuming that we were on the same page because things "worked" between us didn't work out exactly as I had planned.

      Delete
    5. For those of us who don't lead "fractured" lives, the whole idea that someone could have this parallel existence that is locked away is very hard for us to understand. I remember the lightbulb finally going off one day after a long night of me asking my husband a zillion questions. I finally, the wee dawn hours, asked him what he was thinking about me in the mornings when he would drive to the OW's place while I was at home trying to get three preschoolers breakfast, etc. Exasperated, he said to me "I didn't think of you. That's just it. I didn't think of you at all."
      Rather than be enraged (that came later), I got it. I finally got that his relationship with her was in a box that didn't touch his relationship with me and our kids. It existed outside of time/space, etc. at least in his mind. It was only when the worlds began to collide that he began to fall apart and I finally found out.
      I put away our wedding albums, convinced that any of my memories with him would be forever tainted. But now, frankly, I have trouble even remembering sometimes what memories are from the "Before" and what ones are from "After". And, ultimately, I'm not sure it makes any difference because they're MY memories. They were MY reality at that time.

      Delete
  34. Yes. Ten's years worth of tainted memories with him on the phone with her 24/7/365. No respect for family time, holidays, or "vacations" and I've told him to never refer to one trip as our "anniversary trip" since he was cheating on me then. BUT...those feelings diminish over time. One thing I did was to take all photos and reminders of trips or special events during his lost decade and I put them away. This includes a very special trip with my own family while he stayed at home. That physical act of putting things away has helped. I expect that at some point, I'll retrieve some things. But with them out of sight, I've been able to focus on the important things and trying to recover and heal. He's much more attentive and is making up for the damage to our marriage. And that's what important- not the trips or the tainted memories.
    C.

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  35. Anon, yes totally - all memories of life during my H's 18 month affair are now completely tainted. My H like yours - compartmentalising, 2 worlds that didn't cross and I keep saying bullshit to that on my occasions....how was texting her from our bathroom after you'd just been in bed with me having 2 separate worlds? How was looking me in the eye and lying about your 'business trip' keeping them separate. I struggle with that too. I have told my H that everything - absolutely everything during that 18 months is ruined because it was all based on lies. At the time I may have felt he was an amazing husband, an amazing father, but underneath it all he wasn't as he was deceiving me and his mind was also planning his next escape to his fantasy world. I really struggle with this too, especially as he started his A when our son was only 4 months old (a common time for affairs when a new baby is born apparently), so early memories of my son's life are ruined too - his christening, the first time he walked, the first time he talked....everything which should be amazing memories of him are now even tainted. I guess as Anon has said, it's all about time. Perhaps also whether the new memories, as it's a new marriage now, will alleviate the pain of the past.

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    1. Anoymous C and coping
      The tainted feelings are something I think most of us share in the beginning of the healing process. I remember questioning everything we did during the time of his affair! I also spent time in my memories seeing him text and the way he put his phone away if I came near and I did this over and over again until I realized that my memories are mine and she has no right to continue to taint my yesterdays and especially my tomorrows! This process didn't happen fast but I made a concentrated effort to stop doing that because it left me feeling worse and I couldn't find any happiness! I took back what I thought the bitch had tainted from my house that she stayed in for a few months during her homelessness after her bitter divorce, totally remodeling the kitchen and bathroom and both bedrooms...it's taken two years to complete the process of getting my life back to a comfortable happy more than angry sad depressing days. Trust me it took a complete change in my h to be able to get this far. He had to learn how important it is to be honest with no grey areas of if I don't tell her it's not a lie. He had to learn boundaries all over again once that made me feel safe again. I'm blessed that we were making the renovation plans and she wasn't part of that although she painted on the front room so I took that room back as well by getting all new furniture. I know that not everyone can do renovation or move but I do know that with time those feelings I once felt were going to kill me slowly changed to what can I do for me to get me to a better place. I can have a bad day now and again but I choose my happy for me! I'm hoping that for each of you that your h is continuing to do the work to help you heal. It's not easy for either when we start stumbling down the path to better together. Hugs and prayers for the strength you need to find your way to happy once again!

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    2. I relate to everything you all say. I know our marriage was not perfect yet my husband had two affairs over 10 years. He knew them both the same time. Yet he pushed away the one for 3-4 years yet he cannot remember which year it even began. His first one started within a month of our second child being born. So I am right there with you the birth of our child, anniversary trips, family vacations, holidays, birthdays for 10 years. I hate thinking about it all and I am just one year past dday. I cringe when one of his friends has a baby and he talks about our daughter being born. It makes me sick. He reflects back on our vacations so fondly. I have confronted him on this and even brought up specific conversations we had about our future together as a family and as a couple as our kids get older etc. he says he meant all of it and what he did takes away nothing from what we did together and as a family. I guess they are the best at compartamentalizing. But I guess on dday when he sat and told me I am not "in love with you" I find that all contradictory. When three months earlier he gave me a note saying I love you, I love having you as my wife, I love our life together it is confusing to me.

      I struggle with all of this so much. I am resentful and bitter about this. We had very specific discussion about getting married, having kids, moving to where we did, me giving up my job and his actions are the exact opposite of what we decided together.

      My husband says the key is corrective emotional experiences. He says he cannot change what he did. Yet he can control how he behaves going forward. He says corrective emotional experiences are very powerful and can help. I guess I am still waiting, and maybe it will take a lot longer after what he did for 10 years. Some of it is hard since I cannot get back a birth of a child, vacations, birthdays, special moments with our kids. I have made a major effort to try to not focus on this since I feel like it allows the other woman to have power over us. I do make a major effort to focus on the best things in my life. My kids are a huge source of this happiness but sometimes it is working out or making dinner.

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    3. I felt that same anger because we too had talked about our life together and, I believed, made choices together. But he obviously made choices that I was completely excluded from. And that is a HUGE betrayal.
      It's necessary to acknowledge that betrayal. We can't change it but we can ensure that our spouses recognize it and take full responsibility for it.
      I'm glad, Hopeful, that you're able to experience joy in those tiny moments because that will carry you through this.

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    4. I completely relate. I have said SO many times that everything is tainted. All my memories. All the things we did together. Over a 5.5 year span. My husband had two physical affairs. The first was with my supposed "best friend" and the physical part lasted well over 2 years, then they kept in contact for 3 more years. The details of this one are horrifying. That also began when our last baby (#5) was less than 4 months old. And to add to the repulsion, her name is actually on my 4th child's birth certificate. She was present at his homebirth, so she was the "witness."

      I agree that the "compartmentalizing" thing is very difficult to buy. Especially in the case of the "friend." The 2nd affair was with a woman from work, and I can *somewhat* understand how a stranger to me, in a different place entirely, was "over there," and we were "at home." Except for when he lied and deceived, etc. But the "friend," who was very much a part of my life while it was going on? That's not compartmentalizing. We were all together MANY times. She continued pretending to be my friend. He continued allowing her to. And he even encouraged our "friendship" to me. She took my last baby's 1 year pictures on his first birthday. They were involved at that time. That day, the fun we had getting his pictures taken, is tainted. The pictures are tainted. The memories of EVERYTHING in my baby's life are tainted. And all of that is so special to me. My last experience with a baby...his whole life, basically...my husband/his father was cheating on me. On all of us. He threw us away. For TRASH. And filth.

      I feel like our entire history is ruined. 22 years of marriage (at the point I found out, 8+ months ago). That was 1/4 of our marriage that he was cheating. I can't even believe it's real still. I "KNEW" he would never cheat. At all. And look at the extent of what he's done. I haven't even spoken of the horrors associated with the second affair. Even with those, the one with the "friend" is the one that haunts me the most.

      I don't know how to get past it. And I'm sick of hearing "compartmentalizing." It wasn't compartmentalizing when I called him out on flirting with her, and he disgustingly denied, and proclaimed his love for me...when it had been MUCH more than flirting for MONTHS at that point...and then he took it ALL the way within days of his over-the-top denial and manipulation. Those aren't separate things. And screwing around in our house is not separate, either. Especially when they did it, which I may share at some other point.

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    5. Shattered I so relate to all that you say. My husband and I just had a major discussion over the weekend and it was interesting, I am just one year last dday one and seven months past dday two. I feel like it was the first time he was really honest with not just me but himself. And not with facts but really thinking about it beyond the I am sorrys and the regrets.

      It happened since we were going to see a friends new baby and he was reminiscing about the birth of our kids. And not in front of our kids I broke down, I honestly hate him glorifying that time. I can have my memories but he is not really part of it. If I am unsure when he was focused on us and how could he be if he if this was even hanging over him and he was not there for me and our kids like he is now. So I can have my memories but I feel like he cannot have it both ways.

      He said that he knows it is hard to understand but he did everything he did to forget and repress what he had done each time. His affairs were sporadic so as he describes it he dreaded being contacted by these women but then it fed into his ego and how down and hopeless he was about us due to what he had done. He said he highest moments were with me and our family and his lowest moments were with these women, but he felt he had destroyed all the good we had and was on a self destructive path. Now as we talk about it he made so many bad choices his friends, how he spent his time, drinking too much, not taking care of his health etc... And he says there is nothing he cannot say that is not ultimately an excuse since it is 100% his fault and there is no good reason for any of it. So not that it makes it better or that it washes it away I truly think it was a downward spiral or even as I have read about the affair fog. He could never see what he had or me in the most positive way or he would have been even a bigger jerk.

      What came out if it was he is going to work hard to be more open and less defensive. He does not even remember the majority of what he had told me about everything and according to him not a lot of it makes sense, he said he did everything in his power to forget as much of it as possible. I think what made the big difference in this conversation was I finally said to him I am going to therapy and I am not sure why. I feel like I am attending marital therapy alone. I told him if he cares about me so much and wants us to work out he has to put in actual effort and work on himself not just supporting me to go and work on myself and us alone. So he has agreed and ordered books he will read and work through. It is not individual or martial therapy but for him and us it is a step in the right direction. And I think what stands out the most is how he spoke to me, thought about what he was saying before our discussion and ultimately what he said. It was a major shift that he is now finally looking at himself in depth.

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  36. Ladies, I struggle with the tainted memories as well. In fact, at one point I was so distraught feeling as if those memories were not even real. It was my individual counselor who helped me past that. I will say, any of my memories that did not include my husband, even if he was having an affair at the time, are not tainted. For example, I took a trip with some friends, my sister and my mother to Aruba during the time of my husband's affair. The trip will always be special to me. I am even coming to realize that some of the memories with my husband, even if he were involved in an affair, we're still true, and real, and meaningful to me. What he has told me about all that is that that he was showing real emotions and real behavior at the time so therefore he feels it is real and not tainted. I too took down all the pictures around the house at one time ... I was just too sad to look at them, even if they did not happen during the affair. I guess time and understanding and excepting's are all healers… As I have put those pictures back up sometime ago. There are a few memories that happened during my husband's affair that are actually baffling to me. I actually wrote in my journal how wonderful my husband was and how lucky I was to have him and how grateful I was for him. It was during a particularly, highly stressful time of my life both work related and health related. And he was simply always there for me. Now granted, I found out later he was having an affair during that time period. Yet, I cannot forget how good he was to me and regardless if he was having an affair he gave to me all the love and support that I needed during that awful time in my life. How he did it, while having an affair, is beyond me. And there in lies the mysterious, especially to women, strength of compartmentalization.

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    1. Thank you, Melissa. I think what you wrote about showing real emotions and real behavior at the time he was with me is what my H keeps trying to explain to me. The super-compartmentalizers really can split their worlds. I don't understand it, never will, but at the same time, I'm a super-spaghettifier and there are things I connect in my brain that shouldn't be connected. He won't ever understand that, either. Perhaps if I can keep remembering your words, I'll get to the point where I can bring some of the photos out of hiding and be happy (-ier) about those memories. You've been a big help.
      C.

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    2. Melissa,
      You have such a concise, clear-minded way of making sense of so much of this. Thank-you.

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  37. I felt some of these feelings ... like wtf the happiest time of my life w my childs first year milestones ... a new job ... deaths of close relatives and he was cheating on me! I felt used ... abandoned. .. railroaded. Funny thing is i thought the world of my H ... i placed him so high on a pedestal a fall like this would have surely kileed him. We were always taken care of he just at times seemed consumed checked out and a wall between us he admits now his doing if he could lie to himself then it made what he was doing more manageable
    ..compartmentalized worlds for sure they seem to run side by side and did not intertwine the only similarly is he was the main star in both roles. Because of this i tended to the house took on more of the kid responsible and spent at least 2 nights a week alone. Once he told me all the inner voices i passed off screamed to quickly have an ah ha moment and connect the dots to his deception. The lies and deceit brearhtaking and may cut deeper than the actual sex? Still pondering that. I look at pictures events and think too yep he was cheating on me but now almost 11mo out all those memories are still mine and from a different angle his absence on those days allowed me a depth in quality time with my kid that i treasure and sadly he missed out on perhaps thats me turning lemons into lemonade? Its work everyday i do feel different now when i think about it no longer numb and yes still hurting but all doing more then just functioning i feel i am living again even catching myself smile or laugh. It took many months for my H to come to a point of accountability ... im starting to see the man i married .. efforts ... engaged and repeatedly sorry for this huge fuck up! We are working on ourselves and us and i hope we make it. He recently on his own doing came to me with his thoughts she could have been anyone really ... any willing participate and he wanted out way longer then he stayed in and i asked why didnt u tell me sooner before you got so deep? He said he just wanted one more day everyday with his family and continually tried to find a way out of the mess he created which ended up being long term and a big nightmare. In the end 11 mo out i dont wish that pain on anyone but we live more authentically now.

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  38. On a daily basis I see and think like you do wounded. I agree it could be seeing the silver lining. But even my husband says he only wishes he had been as strong as I was and handled life's changes the way I did. He feels so much guilt, regret and remorse and says he would go back and change it if could. As our kids are getting older one is a teenager now and the other is getting closer I have a bond like no other with them. I know a lot of it is because of his behavior. His two affairs were sporadic and the one he only saw three times in 10 years. But he was detached and according to what he says he hated himself. Yet he felt like it was a silppery slope. He felt like because of what he did there was no way I would stay with hm, so he feared telling me. I can understand it but it just does not make any of it better. And just some of the things he has said just sit the wrong way with me. I am someone that does not give up but this is the hardest fight/battle of my life. My biggest fear is I will give him more of me and my life and regret it in the end. It is just so hard to accept forgiving and trusting someone who did not value me, our marriage or our kids.

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  39. 18 years of tainted memories - I am still there. Unfortunately, my H was not there for me emotionally for some health and work related milestones. It started when my kids were in 2nd and 4th grades and didn't end until they were both 24 and 26. That is a helluva lot of memories to sift through. I am almost 9 months out - but there are still so many "ah ha" moments. It's not the same gut punch it was 8 months ago - but the fact that my H has gone from "I just can't remember" - to actually finally answering the questions ... is hard - makes my stomach hurt so bad. To think that just a few days ago my H finally told me the first time he and OW took their relationship sexual - on a work night, in town. That was like a punch in the face. But the fact that H lied about it or kept insisting he didn't remember how it all started...is important to me - to my timeline - to see what was going on in our life at that time. I thought at that time we were young - early 30's...happy, but busy with kids, work and life. Except he was super busy - really busy. He is so sincere now, when he says "I hope you know I always loved you" or "I love you so much, I hope you know that" - still in my mind, if you loved someone, why the hell would you fuck another woman for 18 years. How is that LOVE. And really, the bigger thing for me is - as our marriage deteriorated - I never suspected he was having an affair. He was pushing me away - he was unavailable, he was busy, he was, he was, he was...We even went to counseling during this time but he quit - saying it was not helping. H was pushing me away, playing to my weaknesses, I am not saying this is THE ONLY reason our marriage became crappy - but his ability to compartmentalize was getting worse as the years went on ... We were never going to be able to move forward - NEVER, as long as he was living a lie. Now, I need my H to fully commit to being forthcoming and vulnerable to me, to us - I just don't know if he can do it.

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    1. A1998,
      My mother, before she died, said something that has ever since changed how I view all of my relationships. She told me that people love us the best they can. But it's important to realize that their "best" is what they're capable of that time. And sometimes it's really crappy. It doesn't mean we have to settle for their "best" but it does mean that it isn't a reflection on us in any way. It's a reflection of the state of their own heart. Hurt people hurt people.

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    2. That's so beautiful Elle; made me tear up. Thank you.

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    3. I hear you. In hindsight, I ask myself WHY I NEVER suspected him of cheating. NEVER. Not even when I accused him of flirting (and not only was I right about that, it was already more, and had been for at least 3 months). My mind still never went there. NEVER thought he would DO anything with her. Didn't even cross my mind. Never occurred to me that he wasn't where he said he was or that a woman could be in his hotel rooms on business trips. Never. But now, I think...he was completely emotionally unavailable to me. He was pushing me away, too. I even thought to myself, DAYS before finding all of this out, "He's grown cold toward me...but at least I know he'll never do THAT." What a fool I was. I feel so stupid. Especially regarding the "friend." Because how was it happening right under my nose, and even right in front of my face, and I had NO clue?! BOTH of them betraying me. But I never suspected. My H also talks about how he loves me so much now. Really? Why? How? And you "still loved me" when you were cheating? That's not love. Me trying to stay with you and love you in spite of everything you've done...THAT is love.

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    4. Anonymous

      I get this exactly what you are saying. I felt this way for a long time. How could I not know? How could I not see the signs? Yet I. The end my husband lied to me, looked me in the face, blamed me for anything that was not right with us. He became a master at concealing his lies and guilt. He would come home from guys trips and tell me details about how his friend had danced with a woman, kissed a woman, gone to a strip club and when asked said he was not that way. When challenged about our marriage or any issues he made it my fault. When I asked why I was at the bottom of his list he would tell me it was my fault and talk about how much he was working and taking care of his parents. So in the end I have stopped blaming myself for any of it for not seeing it. He lied to me over and over.it is his fault He made terrible decisions for 10 years. I did not marry him thinking I had to check phone bills, track his cell phone and question his morals.

      The love statements are hard too. I heard on dday I am not "in love" with you anymore but always will love you and care about you. What??? I feel now that my husband was in the fog and it sure what he believed in. Things have changed a lot for us. I know he feels differently about the past and us now. He has transformed a lot and still has a lot of work to do. this is a lot of dedication and love on our part!

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    5. Anon -
      I feel the same....what I am doing NOW, by staying, loving him, taking care of him, being vulnerable in some ways - THAT is love. But I look at what Elle said - "The best he can". So maybe, if I look back at our WHOLE relationship - maybe he has always been doing the "Best" he can. But here's the thing - I could never hurt someone I love - or anyone for that matter - like my H did. His own words to me were "I would never cheat on you again - the pain I caused and watching you go through it - I would never do it again".
      I have been going to a counselor on my own for 7 months. I found this blog first, then my counselor - and I will tell you it has saved my life. I mean that. I, like you, still think often about all the shit that happened right under nose. RIGHT UNDER ... do I accept this at this point - yes, I do. There is still something that keeps me stuck - and that is "Why he stayed with OW for 18 years. Yep - I want to know. I want to know - and I cannot be "all in" unless my H can get the help he needs to understand "why".
      So - I am working on getting stronger in a healthy way, working on ME. I've got to be a healthier me so I CAN make a decision. I don't have to decide anything today, tomorrow or until I CAN. I love my H - I have never loved someone like I love him. I never will. I don't want to be single again - but I don't think I will be one to "settle" if all I get is the past version of "the best he can do".

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    6. I am right there with both of you. It can be hard at times to rectify and I feel like how could I allow this to happen to me. Why did I not protect myself? But just as easy as I can feel that I remind myself this man lied to my face and did everything he had to in order to cover up his actions and guilt. There were a lot of consequences for this over the 10 years.

      One thing that I try to focus on is there has been some relief. When all this came out of course it was the worst news ever but on some level I found relief in this. It explained so many of the low points in our marriage. I really feel like it gave me answers and was a weight lifted off of me. Some of it was my doing but my husband placed blame for anything in our life on me especially if I tried talking about it with him. I hit some very low points and just could never figure out why. It did not make sense. I am a positive and optimistic person it did not fit. I felt confused and sad for years even with a concrete plan to take my life. I realized when he went away on a 10 day trip with friend I did not need him and I was happy that it was him. It was eye opening yet I did not know why. So when dday happened it was the worst day but also one of clarity. It took the burden from me and shifted it onto my husband. This one point has helped me focus on myself and accept that it was not me and I did not cause this and I cannot be to blame of have any part in what he did.

      I agree finding this blog has helped me a ton and feel less isolated. It is comforting to read others have the same stories and I am not alone. My therapist has been a great support and encouraged me to be assertive and work through everything from my perspective and go take care of me. In the end more than ever my husband has to work through his side and issues of why and how he did this. And is it realistic that he will not betray me again, is he capable of not betraying me? So I wait for him to start working on all of that. He has made huge strides in day to day life. He is more open than ever and has realligned what he wants in his life. So we move forward. I do love him so much and will not give up easily but more than ever I know I cannot control him this has to be what he wants on his own not for me.

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  40. Dear tainted memories, All the memories and moments from this time are tainted for me. I threw out all the pictures and deleted many. He got them out of the trash. I'm not perfect, somethings I can get over others I can't. I don't expect myself to be able to get over that long list of memories from that time. Who says we have to get over everything associated with the affair? Is there some unwritten healing expectation? I read how everyone tries to get over that long list and I think why? I know my boundaries and I'm not going to get over these tainted memories. If I don't so what? I'm not a lesser woman. Why do we need to expect ourselves to get over every single thing? What I couldn't get over I either threw away or changed. I got over the farm, truck, OW revenge and other furnishings. I actually put a curse on the truck and waiting to see what happens. I'll let you know how that works out. I know what I'm capable of and I'm not going to beat myself up about it. It is not on my healing priority list. It just doesn't matter to me if I jump this hurtle or not. It doesn't change my relationship with my H now, today.

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  41. The more I read, the more I learn. Elle, your blog has been a lifesaver in 18 months since dday. Whether it was a drunken one-night stand (so he says, and he’s a bad liar) or 20 years of deceit, these men are broken. They couldn't manage their own feelings or failings. Your relationship may have been strained, or it may have seemed fine (mine did). You could be lovely and kind or ugly and mean -- these things don't cause cheating, and they don't spare you from it either. That we even consider fighting our way through betrayal speaks to our power.

    The common denominator is that H stepped out. I am finally getting better at placing the blame where it belongs. I was pretty enough, I was kind enough, and I've never worked harder to make someone else happy. I felt the depression, I missed the binge drinking, I missed the porn. Not because I’m clueless, but because I TRUSTED HIM. My h says it was, without question, the biggest mistake of his life.

    Some memories are tainted, but some we have reclaimed. Sometimes I tell myself, THAT’S MINE, and I AM TAKING IT BACK. I imagine wrapping OW in yellow caution tape and sending her on her way. When mind movies cue up, I fast forward to the part where he vomits on her lawn. And when he tells her no contact, stay away. Find your plot twist. Ours is now a united front, a virtual force field. But I will keep my word: If he can't control his behavior, we might be friends, but we won't be married. Hang tough, warriors. You’re okay either way. (P.S. Stay tuned. I might hate him again tomorrow.)

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    1. Snowbird,
      Your post is something that I hope every woman on this site prints off and re-reads every time she's unsure how to survive this. Thank-you.

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  42. It has been a while since I posted. A few days ago, I actually thought about posting, because I finally felt that I was releasing the anger and feeling so much better. I no longer really cared about the stupid OWs. ... and we just came back from a great Spring Break where we had been skiing like crazy and had a great time together - we are both dare devils and just enjoy racing together. But then I was suddenly reminded of the vulnerability that plays a massive part in our lifestyle. I casually went through his FB account to make sure that nothing was up, and found that two beautiful single women had contacted him, and one of them referred to meeting him in a lounge and wanted to meet up for coffee next time he came to Beverly Hills where she lives. He is very handsome, very charming, very successful, and has to travel a lot for work. He has clinics and meets beautiful women all the time who come to him for advise... I immediately confronted him and told him, that I was disappointed that he hadn't told me about his meeting with that woman, and that I was disappointed that he apparently still was unable to keep these women at bay. I was not jealous or hurt, I was angry. He explained that she was in fact married, and that he had really talked to her son, who came over to him, and then she had arrived. He hadn't seen her message, and hadn't thought of her at all. She had been married for 14 years and had young children... yadidadida. I know he is telling me the truth, but I am so afraid that all these offers he gets all the time eventually will persuade him to cheat on me again... and I just dont want to waste more of my life if eventually he does that to me again. Could I have some thoughts on this from you wise ladies.. I felt so good, and now I am crying all the time...again.

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    1. Anonymous,
      Hold tight to that conviction you had before you let the what ifs creep back in. You are worth being loved and you are worth his loyalty. That's number one. Whether HE is capable of loving you and being loyal to you in a way that you deserve is another thing entirely. That's what he needs to show you, day after day. That's what he needs to prove to you by being totally transparent. That means telling you any time a woman comes to him for advice, regardless of if she's married. He needs to start recognizing the messages he's telling himself -- that you don't need to know, that it's "nothing" or whatever. He doesn't get to decide that right now. You do. Total transparency to help you rebuild trust. Total transparency so he can see what a slippery slope it is. Total transparency so he can acknowledge just how much you need to be able to trust him.
      He won't cheat because the opportunity arises if he's come to really understand the cost of that to your marriage and to you, even if you were to never find out. He needs to fully acknowledge the price he'll pay with his own integrity so that it's a choice he makes.
      Any one of us who loves another person is vulnerable to being hurt. There are no guarantees that life won't deliver a blow. But we agree to be vulnerable because the beauty of loving and being loved is worth it.

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  43. C - I'm glad I could help :-)
    Snowbird, I love the power (and humor) in your post.
    Thank you all ladies. Your strength and compassion feed my soul daily.

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  44. Thank you, Melissa, for your kind words and insights about tainted memories. Nothing is ever all good or all bad, even if we were deceived along the way. To Anonymnous 9:14 -- hugs & prayers your way. I took Elle's advice about having an exit plan so I am ready if he screws up (and screws her) again. I have a note to myself in my phone that includes this: "Marriage is about being honest, loyal, faithful. Either this husband will live that or I will move on. If I can't make peace with his detour, I will reclaim my future by saying goodbye. It's not in my nature to suffer, or hurt others. ... Not every stress is about his betrayal. Sometimes I am tired, hungry, or frustrated, but my mind jumps to my hurt. I will remember that I feel better when I take care of myself. Just because I am calmer or feel better does not mean I have let him off the hook. Happy, healthy people don't do these things. Focus on you, and the rest takes care of itself." Hope this helps. xxoo

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  45. Here's to that moment where you realize you're stewing about all the bullshit in your head and you suddenly think.... I'm sick/bored of thinking about this right now.... and then you think about something else instead and it's not difficult at all or particularly upsetting because you're really just done with it just then. I heard someone say (most likely here lol) that eventually it's like watching a re-run of the same soap opera and you're just bored with it. How I longed for the day..... So please have hope if you're not there yet. Keep working on YOU and it will happen. =)

    I also want to share something else. I know I'm not the only one who tends to beat the crap out of herself for "wallowing" in the pain/memories/self pity but I've noticed that you can tell the difference between "wallowing' and "processing" your pain really easily by how you feel afterwards. If it's wallowing, you'll feel sadder, heavier and more defeated afterwards. If it's processing, you'll feel lighter, freer and with a stronger sense of acceptance soon afterwards.

    I'm at 18 months now for the curious.

    I also spent an entire day of last week in my car in the parking lot sobbing because I couldn't get my shit together enough to go in to work. Eventually drove to a Starbucks so I could pee and go back to hiding in my car... lol Ain't this shit grand? =P

    A thousand thank yous to whoever said this is a cyclical/spiral process where you revisit, mourn and let go and revisit again later.

    Love to you Ladies!

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    1. Aelia,
      That's such a great differentiation between wallowing and processing. You're absolutely right.
      Interesting too what you said about being bored/fed up with your wallowing. I had a long-term relationship in my 20s and it was when I got sick of my own whining that I realized it was time to leave it behind. When we're boring ourselves with our stories, it really is time to move into the next chapter. Not necessarily out of the marriage, just out of the wallowing.

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  46. Here's a blog post I've found helpful- just another reminder that we are grieving and we all process grief differently. Also has advice for those who are helping someone through grief (H's):"Grieving Isn't Wallowing"
    http://www.timjlawrence.com/blog/2016/3/23/wallowing
    C.

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    1. This link is amazing. Thank you, C!

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  47. Yesterday we told our kids about the divorce.
    They were both shocked. Friends told me, "oh, they know. They know something is up." Well, they didn't. We hid it well. They had no clue.
    The older one, who is just like me, cried, yelled, and stomped out. Few minutes later she was back to hug me, and tell me she loved me and would always be there for me, even though she knows that she's only 12. She smiled and told us she was going to be fine, and would like to go to counseling. She talked about it with me, her daddy, her aunt, and several of her friends.
    The younger one, who is like her daddy, cried and then didn't want to talk about it anymore. She does not want to see a counselor. She hates sympathy. She wants to deny and pretend it is not happening. She has asked a few questions since, so I have hope for her. I told her I don't care who she talks to - she has a wide range of choices - but she needs to talk to someone.
    After we told them, we all four played basketball together. Then we all four went and got fro yo together. It was very surreal. It was also a reminder to me of what our family could have and should have been. Made me a little angry at him, but I got over it.
    Before we told them, he took me aside and said that we could still keep trying. but emotionally, I am too far beyond that place. he is very dear to me, but he has lied to me too many times, and I simply cannot be married to him. I finally feel free and in control of my future. I will not go back to that life of doubt, fear, pain, and suspicion.
    So now we are taking this on as a family, one step at a time. He is supposed to get an apartment on Tuesday.
    I am so proud of my precious girls.

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    1. Oh Phoenix, Your girls sound like little warriors who aren't afraid to reach out for help. That's wonderful. And I've seen a lot of divorces in which the parents are respectful with each other and the kids do absolutely fine. Sure it hurts. But to see adults behave in a way that shows integrity and resilience shows your girls that they can survive life's slings and arrows. We wish we could protect our kids from any hurt but the best we can really do is help them grow hearts that bounce back.

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    2. Phoenix,
      You handled that with such grace. Sounds like you have pretty amazing girls, too.

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    3. Phoenix, I have been following and you have worked SO hard. What is right for you is right for your girls. My best divorce books (this is H #2): The Courage to Be a Single Mother, The Complete Idiot's Guide to Surviving Divorce, and Custody Chaos, Personal Peace. You've got this, and you've got our full support. Hugs and prayers. xxoo

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  48. Phoenix, I am so proud of you. You are an inspiration. And your children are truly blessed.

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  49. Elle in 2010 you asked what crazy things WS said that we're so stupid and it was so good. This post made me smile. Could you ask again for either crazy things BS did or what husbands said? Thanks

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  50. Phoenix, please check in now again you will be missed. You sound so strong and grounded. YOU made the choice that was right for you. You tried and tried. I'm so proud of your ability and self esteem to move on with your life. If you get blue or lonely reach out to vent. Regardless you are still a member of a club no one wants to join. Stay safe.

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  51. It really is 3 - 5 years, isn't it?

    I'm at 21 months. Even though I'm still cautious, there are days I feel like I have it beat. But I don't.

    Just found out a friend of mine's husband has cheated on her multiple times. I was triggered and took it out on my husband. And now I'm so mad. I'm mad at him, and I'm mad at myself. I knew yelling at him wasn't going to make me feel better. I knew it was just going to make us both miserable. It's like I can't help myself. He hurt me so bad and I want to hurt him back. As impossible as it is, I want him to change the past. To have not taken me for granted all those years, and then to cheat on me as the crowning touch on the whole big steaming pile of crap he gave me.

    I hate this. Gah.

    I'm going to have a good cry, pull myself back up and keep going. That's all I can do. Thanks for listening.

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    1. Gee
      Been there and done that too! It does make us feel worse when it happens but from what I've experienced, triggers happen when I least expect it and if my h doesn't say and do the right things that calm me he knows how easy my ugly mouth can start yelling. It's been a while since I've had a spell but like you it happens and after I have my cry I pick myself up and face another day! I try to make each day as full of things that make me happy and that's what has helped me! Hugs for what you are feeling but know you are not the only one!

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    2. Gee,
      One of the things I remember doing (the good news is, I don't anymore) was returning to the pain of his betrayal at the first sign of any disappoint/hurt/etc. Even when it had nothing to do with my husband. I'd get news of a career disappointment and my mind would go to "on top of this, I have a husband who cheated" and down the rabbit hole I'd go. I'd have a bad hair day and I'd think "if I was more beautiful, he wouldn't have cheated" (or some variation on that)...and down the rabbit hole I'd go. I tell you this in case you're doing the same thing. Sometimes there's still pain to process. But sometimes, the betrayal becomes the hook on which we hang every single one of life's little setbacks. It becomes the flashpoint for our hurt, our anger -- justification to rip into him one more time.
      Just something to consider. On the other hand, my therapist used to insist that, when we experienced pain, we had a certain number of tears we needed to shed before we could move on. Perhaps you just have a few tears left...

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    3. Thank you both. Elle, I think it might be a bit of both for me. Although I've been catching myself and stopping the trip down the rabbit hole more often these days, so that has to be progress. I told my husband I was sorry for yelling at him again when it wasn't anything he did that day to set me off. And he said he was sorry that he ever gave me a reason to cry. We snuggled and we're both feeling better today.

      I don't know what I'd do without you ladies. Your support has been my lifeline. XO

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    4. Omg, Gee, I hear you.
      I have a similar story. Years of being ignored and then the "crowning touch". Often I don't know which part pisses me off more. When the feels hit, they hit with the force of all 12 years of damage and anger at once. It's a fucking powerful amount of hurt and no one around you seems to get it.

      And it makes it damn difficult to recognize his efforts and changes. In my case, he seems to have learned his big lesson - that entitlement is not the path to marital success, you actually have to have a relationship and not just expectations and demands--- even mistresses eventually want relationships. I truly believe he had no clue about this or he would have done it in a heartbeat before. He's not stupid, just profoundly ignorant and eventually acted on that ignorance. I get all of this.

      But damn am I still angry... So angry that I wonder if I'll ever again feel proud of him, lucky to have him or feel like he is my safe place on this planet. Some days I don't think so and some days I don't see why not - as a friend of mine puts it - everyone has their mental health issues! I can deal with his or I can deal with someone else's.

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    5. I have issues with this too. It can be bad news or good things even. With bad news i can fall apart so easily these days. I think I am still just fragile. I feel like when something bad or unexpected and unrelated to all this comes up I break into a million pieces. It is as if I was being held together by tape, string, glue and who knows what. But basically just a fragile state. I think on a daily basis I am keeping myself removed from many things I never would have before. I am still saying no to s lot of things. Both volunteer type of things and with friends that I would have done in the past. I think some is to protect myself, some is I am not ready, and part of me is a new focus on trying to simplify. But I do feel this happen.

      For less bad news situations it can be a trigger and it comes out of the blue. Like a friend having a baby brings up so much. It is just hard.

      I told my husband last night that the only reason I put on my ring is so the kids don't ask questions. That shocked him. My diamond earrings I got after having our first kid I told him I was thinking of not wearing those. I have not taken them off since she was born. I think this all took him back. He has a lot to understand still. He said he will not take them back or get rid of them but hopes I can wear them one day and be proud and feel good about them again. I am not sure if that will happen. Time will tell but there are so many things I wonder about like that.

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    6. Aelia, your post struck home for me totally. The only person I can focus on right now, and this has been a huge part of my healing, is to focus on ME. No, not on US or HIM or the COW (crazy other woman...gosh, I love this!)...but ME. 22 months and 3 days from DD....and if I focus on something every day that I'm thankful for about ME, or save another dollar toward a massage or pedi, or smile at myself in the mirror and shout "You go girl! YOU ARE FANTASTIC!" it helps to dry the tears (what water crisis???)that happen with those triggers. And I enjoy yelling "I AM HAPPY with ME!" Yes, we're working on our marriage. But he has to work on HIM...and I won't let that anger consume me. Of course it takes over MY mouth still....and the words that come out ain't pretty. That is even lessening because I don't want t feel guilty for saying those vile things (I can just think 'em and write 'em while I work thru 'em.)

      So hang in there dear ones, YOU GOT YOU FOR LIFE so love you. Honor you. Hang tough. You WILL get through this, you WILL get happier.

      Have a fantastic day and dry those tears.

      Suzanne : )

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    7. Hopeful 30,
      I had some jewellery that I just put away. With time, I was able to pull out piece by piece and reincorporate it into my wardrobe. But if it's a trigger, then tuck it away for now.
      And Suzanne! You go!!

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  52. I'm 14 months from DDay and still feel stuck. I found this blog and it pretty much exactly sums up my feelings.

    https://shatteredbyaffair.wordpress.com/2014/07/05/does-a-marriage-ever-really-recover-from-an-affair/#comments

    I felt this at month 8 and have continued to feel it up to today. I've never had all my questions answered. I've never been given the chance to ask my questions until I no longer had questions. I feel this part of my recovery is incomplete. I would only get "I already told you," "I don't remember" (One I DO not believe), "Why do you want to know that?," "That doesn't help move us forward." The last one I find particularly annoying because fucking around with another woman didn't move us forward either. I feel my choices were removed when he had the affair and my choice in how I recover is removed when he refuses to play the "higher hand" by not responding to my questions because it "doesn't move us forward." I don't know how to get out of this rut. And, I'm not talking about "pain shopping." I've read a lot about pain shopping on this site and I really don't feel this is pain shopping. It's me trying to understand something that simply makes no sense. Yes, at some point I'll probably have to stop trying because I would never do this and so it inherently will never make sense. But, I'd feel better being with someone that is willing to try everything they can to do the impossible. I don't know if I can just let this go. At what point do you say it's just no enough? And, again, I know I'll get, "it's enough when you say it's enough," "you make the decisions," "nobody knows but you." I just need to know what do I do if I say this is a deal breaker. We have to separate/divorce and I can't live with that decision either?
    Shannon

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    1. Shannon, personally I found that getting to the place where I could comfortably live with a decision to leave him if needed was the healthiest thing for me. Fuck did it hurt. I mean it really. fucking. hurt. And he wasn't happy to hear me say it but it got his attention and it gave me back the power that I hadn't even noticed I'd handed over to him at some point.

      Being able to imagine a desirable life without him will give you the strength to ask for what you really need. You'll have a concrete idea of what it might look like and maybe even a little enthusiasm for it!

      Also... sounds like you have an avoider too so.... don't let him avoid discussing your needs/complaints/issues because he wants to stay comfortable. You really should be worth the discomfort to him...

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    2. I can imagine a desirable life without him. That's part of the problem. Sometimes I don't know if that's just a fantasy, though. I detest what it would do to our daughter.

      Shannon

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    3. you sound just like me. I'm sick of using my energy to think about him. I'm trying to think about me, what a beautiful person I am and. Yes if need be i will survive on my own with my kids. I'm sick of not having my questions answered so I now take back my brain feelings and focus on me. it hurts like mad but I am what matters now xxxx

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    4. At a certain point, you need to decide whether you can live like you're living...or whether you can't. Life should be about more than enduring. Marriages absolutely can heal. But they won't heal with one partner refusing to participate in the healing...which means answering uncomfortable questions, responding to your pain. It means putting what YOU need first. As Steam has said, "My heartbreak, my rules."
      And it's that simple. You get to make the rules. If he won't agree, then there's the door. He's telling you that he won't make himself uncomfortable for you, that he won't face his own guilt/shame for you. He's asking you to move past something HE did that caused you excruciating pain...but he won't make the effort to help you.
      And my guess is this isn't the only time he's done this. This isn't an anomaly. My guess is that most of your marriage has been about you accommodating him and his needs. Overlooking your own.
      Enough of that. That's not a marriage, that's bondage.
      He's showing you who he is. We can all screw up (though cheating is a biggie!). But it's how we respond in the wake of that screw-up that really shows you whether he's worth offering a second chance or whether it's time to walk away. Your daughter will be devastated, for sure. But with two parents who love her, she'll heal from it. But you gritting your teeth and putting your pain aside isn't helping her at all. It's showing her that women have to put up with all sorts of shit that isn't fair. I imagine you would tell her to leave in a similar circumstance.

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    5. You're right, Elle. This isn't the first time. He had an inappropriate friendship that I found out about shortly after we got engaged. And, another one with a coworker when our daughter was around 4. He sought out a therapist that time because I told him he needed to figure out what was going on with him. I told him then, that I couldn't do this again. And, here we are. I feel like I'm selling myself out by trying to resolve things with him. He seems so sure that he would never do it again, but he is so uncomfortable answering questions, especially anything I ask more than once. He acts like we can just move on into something better without him doing any work. However, like you said, this is the person he's shown me he is. It's been 14 years of this. I'm not confident that a person can do a complete 180 after a handful of therapist visits. When I asked a few months ago what insight he now had into what happened, he got angry. He keeps saying he's sorry and he knew it was wrong. But, that's just it - he knew it was wrong then! How does one just do things they know are wrong? I feel broken and that our relationship may never be the same. I don't feel I will ever heal from this and I'm just so tired of thinking about it.
      Shannon

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  53. Elle, Steam posted a letter to the OW about sending something back in a prepaid envelope as an action of contrition. I can not find it but I know it was this year. Can admin do a search to find it? I wonder what happened? Any way if you can, no hurry and much appreciated. I know you are busy.

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    1. I've asked Steam but haven't yet heard back. I have a vague memory of it...but not sure where to put my fingers on it. I'll let you know when I hear.

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  54. This is one of my sticking points too. First is it all worth this. And I decided that I want to have zero regrets no matter how this all ends up. I also feel I need to heal to the best of my ability no matter how this turns out and for me that means sticking it out for a while. I do see glimmers of a really great relationship. Things have changed dramatically and my husband is making a major effort on all fronts. In addition to all of his changed behaviors what makes me want to stay the most is he is opening up to me.

    And the unanswered questions are the biggest issue for me. I say the same thing I feel stuck. I am one year out and at times I feel more stuck than ever. I am confused and feel like I have been told so many contradictory things. I feel as if my husband is explaining several one night stands. Yet they were far from that, he is taking it seriously but his facts and explanations do not add up. We had what I feel like is our most genuine talk on his part last week. And I think what has happened is he is just starting to deal with it. I think he pushed it back and repressed it all to the best of his ability. He is ashamed and did everything he could to dissociate from his actions. It still leaves me feeling lost without a complete picture. But he has agreed to read books and continue the dialogue which is major progress. Last year I got "this is covered ground" etc. now I am getting I am not sure but I can tell you this and more genuine answers.

    In the end I know we will have to agree to disagree sort of. And he even said no matter what he tells me it all sounds like excuses. He says there was no reason any of this should have ever happened and it is his fault. It is his biggest regret and if he could go back in time he would and change it all. But he tells me he is relieved I know since he wants no secrets. But I truely will never understand how he did what he did. I know I will never and have never even come close to these thoughts. Granted saying everything he has makes things move forward yet I have a hard time believing what he is saying since it was such a long pattern of behavior. He has an explanation for all of that too. It is complicated and I know it will take us a lot longer. We are just at one year since dday. I keep thinking as long as he is listening and working at this recovery then we will keep moving forward.

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    1. Hopeful, you put into words a lot of what I'm feeling. We are also at nearly a year... Next week is the one year mark. We had a great session with our therapist yesterday. One year out, though, I still have questions. My husband has been very open but there were a lot of lies right after d-day, a lot of things said in anger and defensiveness. There's still some stuff to be worked through. But it's hard sometimes to separate the lies I got then from the truth I started getting shortly after that. One of my biggest hang ups seems to be whether or not there was any emotional attachment. He says that it was all about the physical aspect but admits that he manipulated her to keep the sex coming. She went into it knowing that he only wanted sex and never intended to leave me, but somewhere along the way she changed her mind and started applying pressure for him to leave our marriage. I keep asking him to explain the contradiction between his words and intent and his actions. We talked with our therapist about this yesterday. I asked her to help me understand compartmentalization and the blurred lines. She said she didn't see compartmentalization in as clearly defined parameters as the shoebox reference I posted about previously. She referred to it more as the separate worlds being bubbles and my husband floating between those two worlds and trying to manage the outcome in each. Keep stroking the ego of the OW to keep her happy so she keeps giving you sex. Keep things going at home so the wife doesn't find out and everything is fine there. She said the ability to go back and forth may have been facilitated by my husband's arrogance in thinking he was good enough to continue to juggle the two. My husband says he felt no emotional attachment, I have a tough time rationalizing that. Our therapist said that he may have had some emotional attachment in that bubble, but once the bubble popped and it was reality rather than fantasy, my husband recognized that it wasn't a true attachment. It's such a sticking point for us. He tells me that he's not going to lie to me and tell me that he cared about her just to put an end to my questions. Our therapist says we may have to agree to disagree on this one.
      I also agree that seeing changes in your husband's actions and reactions to you can make a huge difference. My husband has never denied me the option to talk about the affair, but he's approaching it much differently now. He watched a couple of the videos I suggested to him and it opened his eyes even more to what I'm feeling. He even opened up a conversation about it without my prompting. Huge step for us! He does his best to explain the affair to me through his eyes. I keep telling him it makes no sense. I wonder if I would ever truly get it without having been in an affair myself. And then I think,"Am I driving myself crazy trying to make sense of nonsense?"
      I am happy to hear that you and your husband are making progress.
      Hugs to you and to all my fellow warriors!

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    2. To my knowledge, my husband hasn't read anything affair related. He agrees he acted selfishly and has finally admitted to regret. But, before that regret that he did it, it was regret that he even told me. It's complete mind fuckery. In the end I worry that he has flexible morals and I do not. I don't think that's a mix for a successful marriage. I'm can't seem to figure that out for sure, though.
      Shannon

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    3. Dandelion- I struggle with the same thing regarding the emotional attachment. My Husband says there was some attachment but it was more because she flattered him, said things that made him feel good. When he wasn't with her, he missed the way she made him feel about himself but she also got ugly too when she felt like he was just using her or when he would say that he was never going to leave us for her. I dont think we'll ever understand what they were thinking or how they were capable of betraying us. M 14 months out and I feel like I'm still struggling. Much of the shock has worn off and now when I look at my husband I feel so much disappointment- it's hard to have any respect for him now.

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    4. It is interesting with my husband it is the opposite he says he knows it sounds bad but he knew barely anything about these women even thought he knew both of them for 10 years. His interactions were sporadic, but I just know I will never get it. He says he knows the least amount of information he can about them. He has no idea if they have a mom or dad, come from a divorced family, barely anything. And he says he never wanted to know anything about him. But the one he only saw her I think four times in ten years the other was more but still he would go six or more months with contact. He said is hated it when it happened but kept on doing it since he felt like he had lost everything. It is all so hard.

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    5. Again, while betrayal is horrible...I'm (obviously) willing to give people a second chance when they take full responsibility for their (horrible) choice and do everything they can to ensure they never do it again. Without that piece, there's little reason for you to give them a second chance. And without seeing someone really come to a reckoning with their own behaviour, it's hard to respect them. I regained respect for my husband by watching him work so hard to face his own shame and self-disgust and dig really deep to figure out why he did such a thing...and how he could ensure he didn't go down that path again. It meant admitting a lot of things he didn't want to admit, it meant letting go of people in his life that had been in his life a long time, it meant losing privacy and a certain amount of freedom in our marriage. But, as far as he was concerned, it was worth it to rebuild a marriage.
      It's really hard to respect someone not only capable of cheating but refusing to fully deal with it. He needs to show himself worthy of respect. We don't owe them anything at this point.

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  55. HeartShattered1978April 8, 2016 at 1:48 PM

    Hello all. I guess you can say I am feeling stuck. My D Day will be 1 yr 5/16/16. I was pregnant when I had found out about the affair, so in addition to whatever normal emotional rollercoaster that comes with finding out I had my hormones. I never stopped loving him, no matter the emotion so I decided to not make a decision until my decision was clear. In some ways I feel like we have made a lot of progress- he comes home more during the week to help me with the 2 girls (2 yrs; 4.5 months.) And as much as he would've preferred not to, anytime I wanted/needed to talk about the situation he did. I recognized that Elle was right, as time passes I don't think about it as much, or it is not as existentially painful (still painful though) when I do think about things. My problem is that I wax and wane between feeling hopeful and happy towards us getting through this, and feeling so angry..so very angry, still periods of sadness especially after vivid dreams of finding them together and them laughing at me. Tends to wreck my next morning. I feel like I am ok when he is physically with me, but I still have to block out the worries that he is still talking to her behind my back. I worry that there is a prepaid phone that he uses since I have access to our cell records now. I worry that he has a separate email/fbook account that he only accesses from work (which is where the majority of his correspondence with her took place) He has not given me a reason since finding out to distrust him, has made huge efforts to be more of a part of the family and help me. I recall a post by Elle where she described the hypervigilence keeping us looking to catch them again, even though his persona is not screaming he's cheating (paraphrased). This is where I feel stuck. I know it can take 2-3 years to "get over" the affair but I still question whether it is going to work. I cant get passed the simple fact that he did it. He did it and came home and acted like nothing happened. He was able to carry on this whole other life behind my back w/o any perceived conscience affect (says it was hard for him.) We did go to counseling and were doing good until my counselor closed her practice. We decided to see how we did by ourselves. Because I still struggle, I am set up with a new counselor. I dread starting over with someone new, but I need the help. I am still nursing so I am not comfortable mood stabilizing meds at this time. I am sure some of you have been where I am, and I am reaching out for advice. Is this normal at this stage? I am sure I am leaving out a lot of details but I tried to condense as much as possible. Any input would be appreciated.

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    1. HS78- I read your post and at 14 months since Dday I still struggle. I find myself wondering, if there's things going on that I'm not aware of. I wonder if he's manipulating me and lying to me. We go through long periods where I barely speak to him because the hurt and anger is still too much. We function just as parents and not at all as a married couple during these times.

      But I do believe he's sorry. Despite all my fears I know he isn't doing anything right now. Prior to the affair things felt a bit off- he always had his phone stuck to him, he would be short with the kids, be busy often at nights with work,etc. None of that is going on now. The fear is crippling because I don't want to lower my defenses and then go through a hurt thatdebilitating ever again. I'm also aware now of how common infidelity is, and I'm scared that if he's in a situation where someone is flirting or being inappropriate that he will once again show poor judgment.

      So all the things you are feeling are normal and they will last for a long time. What helps us through all these rough spots is trying to stay connected. If you guys can, go out on some dates. We try to pray together before bed. In the evenings I've asked him for time to talk without any distractions. I've asked him to specifically ask about any triggers that I faced that day that have upset me. The triggers remind me of his affair and the couch time is a time he can reassure me that he is sorry for those things that he did. He can tell me me that now he is with me and he will never do those things again. It's repetitive but I need to hear him aknowledge my hurt while also expressing remorse, showing change, and promising that, our children and I, will never be hurt by him again. We text each other sweet messages throughout the day. We just try to stay connected.

      As best as we can- we push our marriage forward, despite all the hurt, regret, anger, shame, and pain. If I look at the past, I'm heartbroken and the future scares me because there's so much uncertainty and I love to create "what if" scenarios in my head. I Need to stay focused on the present because he's trying and that's what I want gives me hope for our marriage.
      Big hugs to you- just give yourself and him grace and try to work on your marriage as much as you can on that day- for me some days all I can do is pray to God about it and that's fine, just do the best you can for each day,

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    2. I am just past a year since dday one and I have the same feelings some days are great and other days I think what am I doing. Or something triggers me or sets me off. There are more good than bad days but it is still troubling. I wonder if I will ever get over this lingering feeling and this thought of what am I doing with him still. Much has improved but there are so many things I question. Now when we have talks I initially feel better but as I think about what was said i usually feel more unsettled. I am struggling to figure all of this out. I know how I feel and where I stand but I am trying to assess my husband and wonder who is this man and is he being genuine. My therapist says he could not fake his behaviors for over a year but some of what he says I wonder can he follow through and even be true to himself. I wonder does he just see things differently than me. He does not see an issue with a friend saying "what the wife doesn't know won't hurt her". And this friend is skipping work to golf or staying overnight on a work trip instead of making an effort to get me so he can go out and drink by himself. I have to point these things out. Seeing another couple with a marriage in trouble and when I say that he tells me I am being negative. He says he sees the best in people. And he is in the mental health business. This stuff worries me. Is his sense about people that skewed? How can I read situations that differently. These are all from only my observations. Or is it our morals are his that much more loose.

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    3. The hyper-vigilance generally fades with not only time but consistent evidence that he is doing what he says he's doing, that he's with who he says he's with, that he's having no contact with anyone you don't know about. Trust gets rebuilt so slowly. But as long as he's willing to keep showing up, sharing his life away from you and showing himself to be working hard to earn back your trust, then it will generally come, as long as you're not feeding the fear.
      Thing is, none of us will ever really know what another is doing when we're not there. That holds true for this husband, or in another relationship. But we can get ourselves to a place where we trust in ourselves to respond if he ever reveals himself to be dishonest again. It's why I recommend an "Exit Plan". What will you do if he cheats again? What will you do if you find a phone, or an e-mail, or whatever? Plan it out. Talk to a lawyer, if necessary. It's not about having one foot out the door, it's about putting yourself on solid ground so that you realize that staying with him is a choice...and that you can change that choice should he ever turn out to be unworthy of you.
      You're giving him the chance to be a better person. Whether he takes that opportunity is what you're seeing day after day.

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    4. HS78, I read your post and felt like I could have written it. I am 8 months out and have a 2 year old. My husband is doing everything he can to prove himself / earn my trust. Like you, some days I feel happy and so hopeful for the future and the next day I am angry and in tears, because it just hits me again and I cannot believe he did it. Sorry I'm not offering much insight, as always Elle has offered great advice. Just to say you're not alone in how you feel and so yes completely normal. My husband is an open book about everything now - I even have him on a location tracker now....but I still have the fear and I guess that won't go until trust is rebuilt. If you can get counselling take it.....It's particularly tough with a toddler and you have a young baby - sometimes a blessing that you are so busy but you need an outlet for YOU. Hugs.

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    5. HeartShattered1978April 15, 2016 at 1:07 PM

      Thank you everyone for your replies. Sorry it has taken me so long to respond- between work and 2 kids not much time to get quality internet time. Lea- I am famous for the what if scenarios. Hopeful- I worry about the 'what the wife doesn't know attitude.' That's not his normal frame of mind, but if he was (What if) to slip back into his depressive "dark place".. he said he never wanted me to find out because he knew it would devastate me. Now that he's seen the toll and aftermath I worry (what if) that he will definitely not tell me if it was to happen again and be better at hiding it. Coping- I smirk because I have intermittently researched phone tracking apps, debating if I should put on his phone. I know he would eventually find it. I feel I would want it more for reassurance that he is where he says he is, but either way you shake it, it's still not trusting him. I feel like if I need to do this, I have my answer that I don't belong with him. Elle- He really is making efforts, truly. I watch him with our girls and I fall a little more in love with him and feel happy. My problem is the pain shopping (I'll admit it) and feeding my fear. I have often thought about the exit plan. I feel like ANY further inappropriate text, mail, etc means I leave. But will I be too chicken shit to do it at the time? This site has been a God sent for me overall. The only thing that triggers me here is all of the stories of the multiple affairs. It makes me lose hope that there are any husbands that can truly learn their lesson after 1 mistake. Last thing, I worry that as much work as he has and continues to put in, he has also been very tolerant of my mood swings (from hopeful to you bastard in seconds flat, w/o warning)I worry that he will get sick of tolerating my behavior/ emotional fluctuation, while I try to work through this. I did see my new therapist, she seems down to Earth and has not initially met me with the "you need to get over this" attitude, so I am hopeful. My biggest struggle is I have never had good self esteem and I realize this is important to move on in a positive manner. After 2 serious relationships back-to-back cheating on me, it's hard to not feel I am defective.

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    6. HS1978,
      People don't cheat on you because YOU'RE defective, they cheat because THEY are defective. So let's start with that. Your issue has likely been poor boundaries (due to low self-esteem), however, this is where all that changes.
      The pain shopping, the what ifs, the horrible gut-punch feeling when we hear of someone who didn't stop cheating...it's all "normal" right now, but it's not helpful. As best you can, try and stay in the moment. None of us knows what's coming but we know what we have right now. As the Buddha says, all suffering comes from living in the past or the future. Right now...things feel good. Right now...you are doing fine. Etc.
      You can both use this horrible experience to build something good. To create a stronger family for your children. As for your husband becoming better at hiding...it's possible. But more likely is that, knowing the toll it took and seeing that pain in your eyes, if he's a decent guy, he'll never ever want to be responsible for doing that to you again.

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  56. My husband is "working"... he has given me passwords, I have access to his location through his phone, I have his work calendar and any travel plans ahead of time. We hug more, have regular sex, kiss goodbye every morning, etc. It's all the right things.

    We still have problems communicating sometimes without it being an argument. My husband is an avoider. He'd rather just "move on" from a disagreement than deal with talking it out and making each other heard. He says he can't change the past and only what he does now and in the future. I just have this nagging feeling that he's getting off without doing "real" work. He refused to go to therapy - doesn't trust it and claims he has nothing to talk about - he did about 6 sessions before we attempted a very bad 6 weeks in couple's therapy. I've done therapy and after 3 months my therapist, who I really liked, concluded my husband did this because he wanted to. Exactly what I went into therapy believing. Couple therapy was traumatizing to me - the therapist believe his affair was a symptom of our marriage and clearly favored compassion to him. I've talked about new couple's but my husband doesn't want to. He was disengaged enough the first time I don't want to deal with that aggravation again.

    I guess there's "progress"... I just still have reservations it's enough.
    Shannon

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    1. Shannon,
      Like I said above, your husband is showing you who he is. He's learned, somewhere along the line, that the discomfort he feels having these conversations about his cheating is so horrible that he avoids it at all costs. Chances are that's a big part of why he cheated. It was likely easier to get what he needed (attention, flattery, whatever) from someone else than rock with boat with you. But until he comes to terms with that, he remains vulnerable to cheating again. Affairs are rarely about sex. They're far more often about distraction, about fantasy, about avoidance. They're a parallel world in which there are no arguments, no real intimacy, no emotional risk. Perfect for someone who's uncomfortable with real intimacy and the possibility of abandonment.
      It's always people who most need therapy, it seems, who insist they don't "need" it. They screw up, refuse to look any deeper, and then just want everyone around them to pretend it didn't happen. Life doesn't work that way.
      Shannon, what do YOU want. You can't change your husband but you can change your own behaviour. What kind of marriage do YOU want...and can your husband give you that.

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  57. Suzanne I love how you are looking after you, I can't stress how important it is post betrayal. Putting 'us' first is exactly what we didn't do pre affair. Post affair I made sure my life would be different, I would be different I was going to live life the way I wanted it. That for me meant going part-time at work giving me more time to do whatever I wanted to do. Working out with a personal trainer 3 times a week, blowing money on things I don't really need and just enjoying life, living in the moment. I'm still a bloody good mum, and an 'ok' wife : ) please ladies put your needs first, x xx

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  58. Shannon -
    My H has not given me any passwords unless I ask for them. H has un-synced all his apple devices so I cannot see anything without logging in. H is smarter. That I have to ASK - or I should say I am afraid to ask, because then H will know I am "checking up" on him. My H is an extreme avoider. H has told me he is sorry - so why can't i just move on... or if I am thinking of something and ask a question about something that took place during his A with OW - he says "Things were going so good -why do you have to bring that up" or "I am just trying to move forward - why do you always want to look back". These are still things my H says... and we are almost 9 months out. This is a heavy travel month for both of us - so couples counseling has not happened for 4 weeks. I missed one counseling session with my counselor - and I think I will die. My H, when I asked him yesterday, said "Counseling is not the answer for everything". OK - SO - I can't make him go - I don't believe he will go back to his individual counselor. I set boundaries for this early on - that he had to seek help - he did ... 7 times in the past almost 9 months. But he is done with that.
    So - give couples counseling more time - I can tell you I HATED going many times because I thought our counselor was so fucking easy on him. But, he is trying to keep H engaged. Because H could not give any responses at the beginning but now, the counselor has him responding better, Good for H. But he won't do the individual work - nope.
    As he always says - "I am so relieved you found out - a weight has been lifted"
    GOOD FOR FUCKING YOU. YOU LYING, CHEATING GOD DAMN BASTARD.
    I'm glad H feels better - it's always been about him.
    I'm sorry - I meant to be a help to you today. I'm sorry. I know what I need to do do enforce my boundaries...I am just a damn chicken. Why am I afraid of hurting his feelings when he didn't give a rats ass about me or my feelings. I hate him today, his selfish, think only about himself - I am just lost right now.
    I feel like I am losing it. Sorry.

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    1. Anonymous 1998
      I feel your pain! My h is a true avoider of any confrontation! It's one of the reasons cow was able to manipulate him for as long as she did! Only after she spilled the truth did he begin to see her for how crazy and obsessed she was. He finally got tired of me questioning his loyalty since he wasn't able to hurt her the way she did me. I'm the one that hurt her with my truth about h having had many affairs and she was just one of the many! Hurt her to the core because it shattered her feelings of being special! This was on the first day she texted me and that was my last response to her was to leave me alone about their past. She said not past very present. I told her after this day it was past and she said we won't be finished but I then said all the others are! Well after that the fight began with her demanding a meeting and my h refused all contact. Six months later she went to jail for harrasment but even that didn't stop the crazy from trying a year later for a meeting for drinks and clear the air no hard feelings! Omg this woman had already spent two years chasing my h and so he had her brought back for the judge to read her the riot act and he threatened jail if she breaks the no contact order in the coming year. I was stuck the whole year with her driving by the house when my h was out of town. Now I feel safe that I can be outside and I don't have to fear her coming to my house. She made threats to do that the first month or so. My h is so relieved that it's over and now we are working together to make our lives better. My h refused therapy as his ow was a substance abuse therapist and she was trying to cure his drinking which she blamed on his bad marriage. I guess I was able to understand how it lasted as long as it did because I watched my h say everything he could to make her go away. I'm also working on me and learning how to be healthy for me and I also find ways to be happy for myself. I can still have bad days but I think they are not as bad as the beginning! I still trigger but can most of the time calm myself by distraction such as gardening or meditation with yoga..what ever it takes to get through the day. I'm sending you hugs for your lost feelings and just know that it gets better the more you see your h doing the work of becoming a better man...

      Delete
    2. 1998,

      I agree it is is hard when things are not transparent. I found a secret email account with lots of Im messages to a dozen women, secret fb page and so much more. And I can never access my husband's email for work or anything there since he is in the mental health field and it is all confidential. He did finally give me his codes but I soon learned that it was a false sense of security. He can delete things, get a prepaid phone or find a millions ways if he wanted to connect with other women. He says I would be able to tell by how he acts. When he was doing everything he was doing for ten years he was not an overall happy person. He was detached and disconnected and he had lots of excuses. He did not want to be with me a lot since he had to tell himself that me and our family were a drag and it was okay to escape. So right now I am judging him by his actions and following the boundaries and expectations we have agreed to.

      I have heard the I am so glad you know now and I hated keeping secrets from you. I understand it but I also hate it. Too bad for him these were his decisions alone. I get a lot of I am so sorry...

      I wanted him to go to couples therapy with me or on his own but he said it as not necessary since he is in the field. But that is a joke. On the other hand my therapist says that he would be the guy that would say the right things to get through it and get done with it. Not really effective. He had agreed to read books and discuss those but yesterday started backing off of that saying he feels he has a clear idea about it all. Yet I brought up an issue that he did not want to address or face. I guess at this point I am thinking of saying we need to go see someone together at least. What he has done and the scope of it is too much for me to manage and going to therapy alone is nice but too much of what we are dealing with is about him not me. My therapist basically helps me figure out what I need to say to him next and how to say it. But I am not doing any individual work. It helps since my husband is skilled in these areas. I feel like my therapist is my advocate.

      It is hard to face all of this for them I get that but my therapist says too bad he should have made better decisions to not get him in this spot.

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    3. I left out the part that the fact of my h betrayal didn't include him having many affairs! That was the lie I told her to make her mad at him when she thought she was so special! Because my h refused to meet her and answer her questions she was forced to believe he had cheated before and she was not special. I guess I manipulated her mind the same way she tried to do to me that their relationship was the one my h wanted and needed but by then my h was sick of this woman and her drama. I'm so grateful for this blog and all the strong women I have met here! Thanks for walking with me down and around this crazy path!

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    4. Ladies!! I am so sorry for all the pain you're in. And furious that your husbands cannot appreciate the fucking GIFT you're giving them by even considering giving them a second chance. What is WRONG with them??
      But here's the thing: We teach others how to treat us. You're showing your husband that they can be avoidant, that they can set the rules around counselling or not, that they can go or not depending on which way the wind is blowing that day...and you'll hang in there and be your wonderful loyal selves.
      Enough with that! "My heartbreak, my rules," as Steam says.
      You need to determine what you want from your partner going forward. If he won't go to counselling and you are convinced that he needs counselling to come to terms with what he did and to ensure he won't do it again, then that's the line you draw in the sand. He doesn't go? Then he's told you, clearly, that you're in this marriage alone. He won't provide passwords? Then he's telling you that you're in this marriage alone. He won't support you as you ask questions, ask for support, ask for reassurance? Then he's telling you that you are in this marriage alone.
      So the next question is...what more do you need to know before you make it clear that YOU value yourself enough to show him the door. He made his choice when he cheated. He made another choice when he refused to give you what you asked for to help you heal. Now it's YOUR choice, ladies.

      Delete
  59. Dandelion,
    You mention above that your H watched some videos to help him understand what you are feeling. If they are not too personal, would you please share titles? I am hoping they can help me & my H. Thanks!

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    Replies
    1. Sure, Sal. I'll forewarn that they have a Christian basis. I know that doesn't fall in line with everyone's personal beliefs or work for everyone. I struggle with it sometimes myself, especially in the area of hatred toward and forgiveness for the OW. But I digress... ��
      The site is called Redemptive Living for Women. rlforwomen.com
      There is a section called Kitchen Convos and that is where the videos are. I hope they are helpful for you and your H.

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    2. Dandilion
      Thanks for this link! I watched each of them and my h knows that I want him to watch some of them with me! I'm feeling hopeful that he will at least learn about triggers and why it sends me reeling!

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    3. Thank you!!! Good stuff. Ive only had the chance to watch the Backpack of Burden so far. I definitely plan to watch series with my H -- I think will be helpful for each of us. So glad people put themselves out there like that -- I wouldn't have the courage.

      I really like her. I got a kick out of her reaction when he was all "but what is the GOAL of making me feel as much a pain as you felt?" And she said "Umm..." The look on her face said it all. I kind of wish she didn't go on to say that she wanted him to understand, and instead just said "that IS the goal."

      Good grief, men. Yeah for you that you are finally figuring out life, but I really didn't need this personal growth opportunity. And so some days I just want you to feel like sh*t because I think you deserve it. Actions have consequences, and now there are times when your wife looks at you and feels nothing but hate and rage. Deal. It's ballsy for an adulterer to act disappointed by my lack of loving devotion. ARGGHHHHHH!

      But I'm taking it as a good sign for healing that my first thought was "nice kitchen!" See, I can think about other things :)

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    4. Theresa, I hope they were helpful to you. My husband said he realized some areas where he needed to improve upon how to talk with me about it. I think the Backpack of Burden video really hit home for both of us. He also realized after watching it how I'm not unusual in the way I'm dealing with the betrayal. He understood it was horribly painful, but hearing another woman express those same feelings was eye opening.

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    5. Sal, I chuckled when I read your post. It is a nice kitchen! ��
      I will admit that my style of forgiveness is not quite like hers. I do want my H to understand my pain, but I also have moments where I think, "You brought this on yourself. Deal with it." I sometimes need to remind myself that he's dealing with it on a daily basis, he's just not as vocal about it as I am. And like you, I could have done without this particular experience.
      I do admire their ability as a couple to tackle it and work through it together. I'm optimistic about my own marriage. I know we're both working at it and we're growing as individuals too. I try to remind myself of that on the rough days.

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    6. Dandilion
      The videos were very helpful! My h and I had a very honest open conversation that allowed more truth than he was able to give me from fear of hurting me further. He was so honest with me and himself as well. We made much progress! Thanks again!

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  60. Is anyone else having a helluva time getting back into their old hobbies and activities again? The stuff they loved before the shit hit the fan?

    I can start new things but I can't re-connect with a few things that I've loved since I was a kid that were huge sources of joy immediately before. I don't really want to let this bullshit take them away from me.

    I think during the early self-blame phase I shut a lot of this stuff down because I didn't want to be that person who got fucked over any more. And these hobbies were self-defining so the baby went out with the bath water.

    I know if I try to stop thinking about the bullshit for long my brain reflexively reminds me of the pain -- and that I need to watch out... or else it might happen again... I used to believe that he was off on his own happily and innocently entertaining himself and was glad to have me doing the same. Now I feel like I might be blindsided again if I relax too much...

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    1. Aelia
      I feel your pain. When my h affair began I was living in our lake house and fishing was one of my passions that I three years later have not really been able to return to. It was our special way of spending time together for most of our relationship and now I look at that time as me being preoccupied by my passion giving him the time and opportunity to cheat. However my h and I have gotten to the place where I now understand how and why his affair happened and I now know that it's not what I was doing but what he was going through in his own mind. The only reason I have not been fishing this season is not being able to be at our lake house long enough but we are going this weekend. I hope to return to the passion that haunted me for two seasons. Like you I was able to do new things but they didn't hold my attention very long. I'm getting better at most of my favorite things but it takes time to feel comfortable for me to do some of them. By the way, my h had to give up his favorite pastime of volleyball as that was how he met his whore and for me even typing the word is a huge trigger. I'm grateful he was and still is willing to do what ever it takes to get me to a better place. I hope this helps you in some small way! Hugs!

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    2. Theresa, it totally helps! Even just hearing it isn't just me reacting this way helps me feel more sane. lol

      What you've said has reminded me how tangled up the hobby was with him. I've always loved horses. I worked part time at a barn when I first got H. I took him to work with me when he came to visit and he was rapt and curious and the big tough guy whose afraid of a large animal act made me laugh. It was like a damn movie having him around and adoring me with horses swirling around us in the ring. haha He's always supported it and encouraged me. He encouraged me when I wanted to buy a horse that we probably really couldn't properly afford.

      All of this makes me feel like what I'm dealing with is probably more of a tainted/ruined memory issue.

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    3. Aelia
      I'm so glad it has helped a bit and I also know what you mean about the tainted/ruined memories! I'm now one at a time reclaiming each of those memories and systematically cleaning up the areas I feel she tried to taint! Hasn't been easy and fast but I've come to realize that my memories are mine and I refuse to let her ruin anymore of my past but especially my future! Stronger together with a lot of help from my h! March forward! I see you getting stronger too!

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  61. Im drowning ... or so it feel like that its not only betrayal... im healing from my surgery still and my h has come down with illness that required a lengthy hospital stay and extended care im.beyond stressed ... overwhelmed both by seeing him so sick and by still having to manage house .. kids ... work. I exploded today! I felt it coming i should have breathed and after i sit not feeling any better but thinking yes too much going on no doubt has me hanging by a string but another part of me thought if this intensified overwhelming anger frustration and down feeling maybe a trigger as im doing it all ... running around with my head cut off and feeling off tho difference circumstances the feelings are the same ... me doing it all while he cheated only now its bcuz of illnesd. This to shall pass ... all health issues fixable but as we learned thru our heartache everything changes in time and often the times we want to speed thru ... drags by. Time a 4 letter word today. I need a long walk and some sleep. Tgif ... venting. My h may have a little going on too of course ill care for him when hes sick...handle medical etc but in back of his mind ... i know hes grateful but wonders why do i after what he did to me? I guess this is healing .. venting a little rambled even. I need to take care of alot and remind myself to take care of me too. Work in progress

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    Replies
    1. Wounded,
      What can you outsource right now? Is there anything you can take off your plate? With a sick husband, healing yourself from surgery, and all the shit of betrayal, can someone help with childcare? Can someone leave you a casserole or two? Part of healing from this is learning to ask for help when we need it. You don't have to be a hero because, as you discovered, it usually backfires and you end up screaming at someone and feeling less like a martyr than a jerk.
      At the very least, give some thought to what helps fill you back up when you're empty. And then built that into your day. A walk? Tea and a good book? A chat with a friend? Some mindless TV? Make that your priority. Tell people you've got nothing left to give until you refuel.

      Delete
  62. 'Tainted memories' describes exactly how I feel due to my OH 18 years of contact and 2 affairs with the scum. In a few months we will celebrate our 36th wedding anniversary but in my mind it is only half that. I find that as of yet, three and a half years on from DD 1, that I can't draw and paint using the materials he bought me to assuage his conscience during his second physical affair with the same ex girlfriend.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous,
      Sounds like you are truly stuck. It took me closer to five years to feel as though I was well and truly past all the pain. But if you don't feel as though you're moving through this, give some thought as to what is keeping you stuck. What do you need that you're getting? You'll never be able to go back and re-do those years...but you've got right now. You've got a future. What do you want it to look like? How can you let go of what you can't change...and focus on what you can?

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