Feeling Stuck? (Part 15 FULL. PLEASE POST IN 16)

Tell us how you're stuck... and we'll try and help you get un-stuck.

203 comments:

  1. My marraige is still stuck but I am getting myself unstuck from pain and shame. Alas, my husbands issues go deeper than "just" an affair and porn. But I had an important realization recently.
    Last week, I stood up to my father and his out of control, manipulative and neurotic behavior. He has OCD and super high anxiety that makes him extremely fearful and controlling of others. I stood up to him and even though he didn’t get it, I stood up for myself and my mom and my sisters. They appreciated it. I said what they all know to be true but have been cowed, gaslighted, browbeaten, and wrapped in their own haze to be able to do it with confidence. I did it with love and compassion, without anger, accusation and blame. He still didn’t like it. He steamed, sputtered, and roiled. But I was an adult and not a child. I was clear and grounded. I was loving to myself and to him.
    I am conscious of the mistakes of my mother. They are ones that I make too, I admit: Not being grounded in her own truth. Not having boundaries, flailing with anger, bitterness, and indignation. Codependent, colluding, and collaborating, not able to rock the boat too much because then she might tip the whole thing. But I don’t blame her. Her boundaries violated in the worst way as a child, are weak as an adult. Who she is, her emotional stability is dependent on how others feel. She sometimes confuses loving with enabling. But she wants to live a whole-hearted life. She is big and passionate. And may have lost some of who she is because of a life of living with someone who desperately needs the world and everyone else to be something it is not.

    Addictive or acting out people don’t want emotionally strong people in their lives. They want and need people with soft and weak borders that they can breach. If they can, they will talk, beg, plead, yell, cry, charm or force their way through—kneading their truth into your truth, pulling out of you what they need to sustain the acting out. And we are so trusting and blinded by our desire for connection and relating, for love and attention, that we don’t notice it happening… until we can’t distinguish what is right for us from what they demand inorder to propagate their distorted needs.
    And if you don’t have weak boundaries or if you find your voice and stand up to your truth, they will gaslight you. Or throw such a fit. They will steam and boil, sputter and roil-desperate to control and tame you. Whatever it takes to keep you there so you can go on propping up the system that serves them so well. Because you are the other leg they stand on. Unless you are willing to be a disruptor, a cart tipper, it will not change. It doesn’t have to be hateful and bitter. It doesn’t have to boisterous and mean. Nor is it about making them change. But it might make them angry. It might make them hateful, bitter, and mean. And you have to be ready to combat that with inner grounding and strength. This develops by not allowing your value to come from what others say or think. Not having it be dependent on how you look, how much money you make, or some standard of perfection. For me, it comes by cultivating love and acceptance for myself, as I am. And through this, I am finally finding the strength to say "no. I will not accept this."


    -MBS

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    1. MBS,
      I'm cheering so loud for you right now. Yay, yay, yay!!! I'm bursting with pride for you. That's amazing what you did. That took courage and it took self-respect and it even took kindness for your father to stand up to him from a place that came from understanding who he is. Thank you for sharing your experience and what you've learned. I wish you could offer a course to all of us on how to create boundaries and how to respond to the dysfunctional people in our lives (whom we often love or want in our lives because they're our parents, our children, our partners, our friends...) in a way that respects ourselves. And I wouldn't be surprised if your mom and your sisters begin to make changes in their own lives thanks to you showing them it can be done.

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    2. Oh my goodness, Elle. I am SO a work in progress, but thank you. My therapist recently reminded me that I was always a "whistle blower." I was alway one who wanted to speak up and challenge crap. Often I didn't because I was afraid for getting shamed and shut down. But I often did, especially to my father. But he would make me feel bad--accuse me of not respecting him, hating him, siding with my mother, etc. I realized this is what my husband does too. He doesn't like me to call out the crappy behavior. He doesn't to feel bad about himself. So he counterblames, he gets defensive, accusatory, feels sorry for himself, or (unlike my father) placates with words but not actions. He wants me to claim some responsibility for his dysfunction.
      These self protective strategies of his weaken my boundaries, cause me to question myself, erode my strength and self esteem.
      It has been a life saver to find both therapist and this website, to know that I don't have to keep doubting my truth. My real life, and our old couples therapist were dismissive of my concerns.
      At the same time, I am also willing to change how I relate to all of it--with peace and groundedness. I can't think of any other way. Attacking and self-pity wasn't working.
      But Boundaries are SCARY....
      -MBS

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    3. MBS -
      Boundaries are scary; dealing with all of this with compassion - and mean it; dignity - that's not as hard for me....not flipping out - that still from time to time is beyond hard. I feel paralyzed by the fear of having to act on my boundaries. Because as usual, my H has reasons "why" the individual counseling has been little to none. So I repeat myself again, and I am sad and scared - but he does not budge.
      Choices - I am scared to make them.

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    4. 1998,
      Oooh, I totally understand that. The dignity part is about learning how not to both not flip out and requiring certain things to feel respected. The problem here is that my H uses any minor "flipping out" (or as I would view it-assertiveness, boundaries, standing up for myself )--as in raised tone, criticism, complaint--as a reason to blame me for things being a struggle and our recovery not going very well. I keep having to remind myself that this is all about him and his shame,his anxiety, his fear about being the bad guy. But I also have to notice when I am acting out in retaliation, blowing up, and flailing in indignation. Then I can better hold my boundaries. I have started to work with my fear of setting boundaries with other situations in my life, even if hypothetically, which is helping me overcome the fear of setting them with my H.

      MBS

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    5. MBS -
      EXACTLY.... if we have a discussion or I disagree, or I complain, or my voice rises? I get the SAME comments "I thought we were moving forward" "I'm not looking back, I am looking forward", "We were doing so well, why did you have to _ _ _" And when I actually had the nerve to bring up the condition of individual counseling 2 weeks ago - I received this gift: " As usual I am a failure!" "Why do you always have to tell me what a failure I am?" "You are so critical - if it's not as frequent as YOU would like or WHEN you would like it, it's just not good enough for you."
      I didn't flip out, I didn't yell or take the bait and argue with him. I was sad - because none of those words came out of my mouth. I simply said, "If we are going to stay together, make this marriage work, I NEED you to seek individual counseling, or we cannot be together". THAT'S it - I said it! I was so scared...and then he word vomited all that crap back at me .... that's what he HEARD - I know that. But the fact that he cannot get past that is really sad for me...us.
      I will not live another moment listening to someone tell me that it's my FAULT or because of ME or that I AM this, or THAT.... I know the truth about what and who I am. I know the difference between flipping out and having a crucial conversation - but the fact that my H still thinks all that old shit is going to work and "put me in a corner" and buy him more time..... I don't think so - not anymore. You know - tables turned here, but what the hell is he so afraid of anyway?? He lived a double life for almost 18 years... for REAL. Afraid I am going to leave?? Really?? Or maybe that he knows deep down that he doesn't want to be married to me, and hasn't for many years, but is afraid to be "the bad guy" and file for divorce - because how will he come out on top? Our two grown kids know he had this separate life, a couple friends...but NO ONE else. And if we don't stay together... well, everyone will eventually find out and that includes his parents, who would be absolutely devestated!
      My H never wants anyone to dislike him, not family, not friends (oops he doesnt really have any cuz he ran them off when he couldn't tell anyone about his girlfriend) co-workers, and certainly not his kids. He has always been happy to paint me as the "out of control", "unhappy", "unreasonable", "too emotional" - or anything else that apparently detracted from what was happening in his double life.
      Saying all of this - it felt good. It's not a mind movie, it's the OLD reality - and I am not going to live in THAT any longer.

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    6. Wow. Sounds like a recording from my house.
      My personal therapist reminds me that alot of this is not in his control. It is an unconscious, deeply ingrained mechanism born from a deep, pathological shame. She also reminds me that my turning the tables and changing my pattern around it (OLD ME: compensating for him, doubting myself, resenting him, getting defensive, complaining) is going to be slow and painful for him. She likens it to turning a big ship around.

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    7. MBS thanks so much for your thoughts on how things can become muddied and we don't know what we should ask for. I've written all about my experience in the latest post so I won't repeat. It's just so important to find a way to know what is fair and necessary to ask for for the relationship and to be able to communicate that without feeling guilty or paranoid or 'unhealed' or overly demanding. I know my husband has low self-esteem coupled with arrogance in some areas so there is a system of defensiveness and 'hard done by ness' that still prevails to some degree and caused the affair. He struggles with me bringing up too many issues at a time, he gets despondent. I can get overwhelmed and touchy too. These are immature responses and both of us need to be firm, clear, friendly and adult if we can find a marriage and parameters that work.

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    8. Anonymous 1998 I am sitting hear nodding and nodding with what you say here. I too have been 'out of control', 'too emotional' etc down though the years and at times I have been, I am anxious and easily overwhelmed and because I hate that in myself I haven't been able to discern when I do have a point. My husband doesn't want people to dislike him. YES! And I worry about the deep down he realises he is not too keen on this marriage, or even deep down he doesn't realise. It just comes across that if I would be happier and less critical we could have a great time. Sadly there's always a little bit of truth in these statements so I've had a tough time deciding where the truth begins. If I could feel more respected and acknowledged then would I have these issues? My parents know but my husband's don't (I didn't want to burden them due to their ill health) but I do wonder what it would have been like if things had been different (his mother had a bad stroke a few years ago and can't communicate well) and he would have had to face their comments. Like you I feel his 'disappointment' when I bring things up. I'm glad to hear you are getting clarity on this.

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    9. MBS,
      Thank you! I've read your post over several times. I never knew I had weak boundaries. It's all too clear to me now. I knew I was a people pleaser, never wanted to hurt people's feelings. But now I realize how much of it was at my own expense. An experience with a friend about a month ago really brought it to light. I set a clear boundary (mine are typically weak), she disregarded it. Blatantly. I was furious, but said very little. It triggered me and EVERY experience of having my boundaries crossed came rushing back. My emotions went crazy. My husband caught the brunt of it even though he had done nothing at the time. We talked with our therapist. I'm learning that I need to be clearer. He's learning to pay closer attention and recognize the situations where I may not be as vocal as I should.
      But in reading your post, I realize that not everyone is going to be as concerned with my boundaries as he is. You also pointed out something that I need to remember. I can speak up for myself without it being adversarial or mean. Too often, my emotions get the best of me. I think maybe if I just stick to the facts, it will be easier to have these types of conversations.
      Thank you so much for your insight and sharing your experience!

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    10. Reading all these comments makes me realize now recently our dynamic has changed now that we have passed year one. The irony is that I have adopted parenting advice from my husband (he is a mental health professional) that he suggested I use with our kids when having a challenging time. He has always told me remove emotion from your affect and taking with them, not showing that you do not care or disregard them. But not getting agitated, angry, crying, yelling etc. And not letting your emotions affect the consequences. This has taken me a year to get here and it happened naturally. I find the results and discussion are more productive when I handle the situation this way. Another piece of advice is listen more vs talk. He says it is like if you were to approach an animal in the wild. Be still and quiet. What I have found is he has opened up and been a lot more genuine. If I rant, get emotional, cry or any of the above he shuts down. It equates pain and he blames himself. We get no where. With the other approaches we have a long quality discussion. And it has made a huge difference. I had to get to that point but it has worked.

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  2. I find this all so interesting. My therapist of course asked me about my history and he said I am so lucky to have such a solid background and parents. I really am lucky they are great. They are not the most emotional people but I have always meant the world to them and I know it. They were attentive without being controlling. So my therapist wonders how did I let this happen being with my husband who comes from a very different family. They love him so much and he was a good kid but very indulged and not many consequences. My therapist said he is surprised I allowed things to get to the level they did with my husband since I have no pattern of this in my life. I am not sure either. I am far from controlling and probably too flexible. Or as my therapist says I have been too tolerant. All I can think is that for my husband I was a great fit. I am hard working, focused on myself, not jealous and very independent. So I can see why I was appealing to him it worked well for him from the beginning. But for me why was I okay with this? I know I was naive and thought well we met so young and talked about all of these things so we have the same values and morals. And as I have found out his shifted and mine never did. So the million dollar question is why did his shift, does he have a character flaw and can he make quality decisions and be loyal going forward. He tells me 100% that he can and if he is not happy he would tell me. It sounds great but oversimplified. He did not marry. E and about life planning how he could do this to himself, me and our marriage. It was gradual, sporadic and a slippery slope. I find it challenging since my therapist is puzzled by him. I keep thinking give it time as long as he is working on it. One day at a time.

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    1. Hopeful30,
      Your story sounds so much like a friend's of mine. She had this idyllic childhood with loving, healthy parents. Her therapist suggested that it was this lack of suspicion that allowed her husband to get away with his shit for so long...and that made my friend think she could "fix" everything even when her husband refused to fess up and continued to see the OW. Nothing in her life had prepared her for such deception so she almost refused to see it. Rose-colored glasses and all that. A piece of this is cultural, not just family of origin. Women are socialized to be flexible and compassionate, undemanding and capable.

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    2. That does make sense. I was raised to be very optimistic and power through everything. Hard work prevails and can fix anything. Well that works for me but as we have said I cannot make that my husband's values. I am also an only child and I think that plays into my extreme level of comfort of being alone and independent. None of that ever bothered me and I relished the chance to be a caregiver. Sure there were not so great days but based on how I was raised etc I just pushed ahead. I was to a wallflower/pushover and would talk about things with my husband. I was met with excuses and lies. All the excuses were valid and checked out. And they "made sense" but If I look at things more skeptical I can see where maybe I would have pressed him more. If I had been a mini detective. But I have given up beating myself up for that. I always thought we had similar upbringings and I see it so differently. And he has major boundary issues with his parents and I would say with friends. His pattern that he developed was to please himself and everyone else first. And the kids were second to last and I was last on his list. It is crystal clear now. He has made huge strides but I am working through what I think is okay and safe for me. It is a new way of looking at things.

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  3. Coping, I have had similar feelings. I am at one year and one months past dday. I have periods where I feel optimistic. The one year mark was hard for many reasons. Usually anniversaries are a time to reflect which is natural. That was hard looking back over the past year. Looking back at multiple days, the lying after dday which was the worst pain etc. And also now all these new dates to remember in addition to dday. Connecting more dots etc. my therapist said it is totally normal and healthy. He said he would worry about me if I said ok I am past this and all is forgiven I am all good. He said this is part of the process and includes some self protection that I never had really in the past. So I go with that. I am trying to be upfront with my husband about these feelings. One thing that has helped me is looking back at my journals and even reflecting how I felt. And I can tell I have improved. What has hit me is he needs to do a lot more work. As this evolves I/we realize he has spent all his energy into making me happy. He has made a lot of improvements and has reflected some. But I think he has only scratched the surface. Lots of discussions about friends, alcohol, lifestyles, integrity, reputation, what his life looks like going forward. Every one of his relationships has undergone change. His parents, sister, kids, friends etc. So I can see him navigating that. I can see why this takes years. And my husband had two affairs over 10 years. Granted sporadic yet he was never invested in us those years. So as I see it I am working on me. And honestly I am giving him time. I asked him for his patience and now I am giving him my patience. I know this might be different for everyone but I think it is up to you how much time you want to give it and if he is doing enough work to make it worth it to keep giving it a try.

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  4. Coping, I am just over two years from D-Day and 1.5 years from D-Day 2 (emotional affair mainly, but he went back talking to her for a month & deceived me all over) and I still have (many) days when I am stuck on the same fundamental point as you. How could he do this, (in our case we were friends since age 20 - 25 years!) Will I ever really get over that? My husband says how scary it is to know he had it in him to do it and he questions whether he still is that person. I suppose we need to see it that a person has a certain amount of personal integrity (in both senses of the world - held together and doing the right thing) but that circumstances can chip away at that integrity and cause people to do things they generally wouldn't do. Or else the flaws and unresolved issues are running through and in a certain set of circumstances they will manifest. In both cases guards must be put up by the CS to make sure they don't break that integrity again. (Like an alcoholic with rules around alcohol.) But back to you, and how you are not sure you will get over the violation. We will never completely get over the shock of it and right now at 8 months that shock, that snapping of your worldview is much too close and raw for you to be able to see beyond it. Reality itself has been broken. I have still to decide ultimately does it mean I walk away in the future or do I understand that there is dark and light in all aspects of life and if my husband does everything he can to make reparation and cherish me from now on can I incorporate the crack in our relationship and keep going. I will say that 2 years on I can now have a wider view and accept his efforts and the value of what we do have more. I'm now more philosophical and open to possibility. Don't be hard on yourself now, at 8 months you still have so much processing to do to make new sense of the world. I have felt exactly the same as your last sentence but our hearts and understanding are wide. We might decide to regretfully be friends only or to forge a new marriage but we can do it with openmindedness and generosity, our strengths.

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    1. Theresa, Gee, Anon 1998, Hopeful & Fragments. Sorry it has taken me this long to reply but thank you so so much. I have read your replies over & over & over in this last couple of weeks, they have provided so much support & strength. Theresa - yes I am having therapy, individual & joint with my H. It does help tremendously but so often I come back to what to said in my post. Anon 1998, you hit the nail on the head when you said ' It's hard to reconcile what he says to me NOW when just 9 months ago he was doing just the opposite'. My H actually left me 8 months rather than be honest about what he'd been doing, so dealing with the trauma of that & his affair, some days makes it impossible to get my head round what he says & does now. He hasn't moved back into the family home, so we are still separated but trying - spending lots of time as a family with our son and went away on our own last weekend. We have been intimate but haven't had sex. Again maybe I just need to give myself more time but I also worry about that 'spark' has been put out by his actions. I don't always want to reach out to him like I did before and the sex part I still can't seem to move on with as I can't imagine him not being with her. He is trying so hard, I do appreciate this and also know that he struggles daily with his behaviour. I just don't know whether we will only be friends or I can re start our marriage. I can even see how much stronger it could be just by how we communicate now, but I don't know if everything has generally been too damaged. In the meantime I'll carry on reading your responses until I get there! Wherever 'there' is!

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  5. Well I have to say I beat the bitch! His affair lasted 26 months. As of a few days ago, our recovery outlasted the psycho whore kindergarten teacher who thought she could phuck and move in. I would say to him over and over - "Do realize you were still dating her? That is a long time. " I probably said this once a week so he heard it at least 136 times. I have to admit I saw her on FB and she looks like a worn out turd. She looks like she has been sucking - uh - lemons. Her choices are showing up in a big way. Lovin it. But I was looking forward to the day that "we" finally outlasted "them".

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    1. Lynnpiddlingpain
      I'm celebrating with you! Outlasting the bitch was one of my goals from day one and she sure was a stubborn bitch! That's why I chose to always be celebrating April fools day! The day she went to jail and had to stop contact even though she needed to be reminded less than a year later! That part of the experience was really one my h didn't see coming! My goodness he was so relieved when the secret was out and just knew it was finally OVER! So I like you didn't know if I could get there but here I am none the less finding joy in the fact that they were only special her word for the first couple of months! The reminder of their time together was very hard for my h, which by the way the knowledge of that makes me laugh out loud, so I can use the celebration as a reminder that what my h said from the beginning was this never was what I thought would happen is something that will remain his defense from it ever happening again! When I look at him now I see a forever changed for the better man! Hugs!

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    2. Congratulations!

      You were always a better woman than she, and you knew it!

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  6. I have been reading (devouring) the posts, hope, love, support, insight on this site for over a week. I am so glad to have found you all even if just speaking up now. We are just coming up on 4 months post d day (yes, Jan 1 happy bleeding new year) and it is my husband who is stuck. Realizes now that I loved him the whole time, when he thought I didn't. Realizes now that there were more than two options to deal with his unhappiness (leave or cheat). But still can't let go of the idea that he loves the OW or the illusion that something "special" happened (although I begin to see signs that this is fading). In this terrible process, when everything I knew about myself or believed kept me safe was stripped away, I came to a quiet place where I had to make a decision. Fall apart or become someone I was proud of, someone I truly loved maybe for the first time. So I have been working on me and I really like who I am. My conflicted husband, who is still in contact w the OW, though they have ended the physical portion of the affair, sees and is awed by my journey. Thanks to one of the posts here I've come to realize that the OW truly has nothing I want. I wouldn't trade places with her for a second. I feel sorry for how broken and desperate she must be. So, my husband and I each see individual counselors. We just started seeing a couple counselor (who is also a sex therapist) and who is especially gifted. She told me exactly what I needed to know to get through this. She said, it won't be good enough to let him grieve for the loss of the OW. then He will always have given up something for the marriage. That isn't good enough. He will instead get to the point where he realizes you are the better choice, where he will list the things he doesn't like about her and where he will see that she was so needy that she would suck the life out of him. He will get there. it doesn't matter if it takes 3 months or 10 months. You can do this. - I had been convicted all along that I wanted to fight for my marriage, but her words gave me the strength to believe in my ability to keep going. That I could outlast whatever lingering hold she has over his mind. I can do this.
    So thanks for being here. Thanks for listening.

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    1. Still Standing,
      Wow. You are a force! Four months out and you sound incredible. I was barely functional at that point.
      Your therapist sounds wonderful. And I think she's right. So often these women are nothing special and were chosen based solely on the fact that they were available.
      I'm so glad you found us. I hope you'll continue to share what you're learning through this. We could all benefit!

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    2. Thanks so much. Some days I am standing taller than others. Some days I am literally a weeping heap. But I am learning to let myself have those days too. This is not a sprint, so I keep telling myself. It is so helpful to read the stories of the amazing women who have made it past where I am one day at a time. Today the sun is shining and I have my garden, my kids, my dogs and so much to enjoy. I feel less lonely knowing you all are here.

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    3. Not only were these COWs available, they were the predators. WE ARE ALL SO MUCH MORE WONDERFUL THAN ALL THE COWs COMBINED!

      Celebrating the true sisterhood of the Survivors of infidelity!

      Go team go!

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  7. Elle and warriors i posted in stuck 14 i was drowning w dealing with betrayl... my own health now my hubby health ... its alot but im still standing. Hell start a new job soon which i hope is good for him and us and doesnt put me on edge to much change is hard but as we all know sometimes needed im reminding myself to take care of me ive been asking for help with kids or leaning on some of my mom friends ti host playdates so i can try to breath ... i know im healing things are different the hurt is still there .. but different i sit with it its a deep ache not a gasping for air swallow me whole feeling. My hubby is making strides i feel it ... i see it and hes sorry i know he is ... the second chance isnt just for him its for us ... me ... i deserve happiness to continue to enjoy life the life i built and worked hard for ... its work but isn't everything thats worth something? I stay in the now much easier not so overwhelming. Im approaching the 1 year mark im on edge about it but also looking forward to passing it ...ive been a bit quiet so much going on have my hands full but im here often reading ... trying to work thru this and best of all still standing living lighter wo the stress of perfection but that my dears was overrated and exhausting and didnt help or prevent shit. Elle told me just be me im enough and when all else fails just show up thats it... im showing up everyday. Heres to a little sparkle and sunshine on your faces

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  8. I totally feel like that. I feel like anything great requires work. We aren't in a fairy tale and no matter what society thinks that is not reality. Marriage takes a lot and things are always changing. So we are putting in a lot of effort on ourselves as invidvudals and our marriage. It is paying off after a year. I can feel this deep appreciation from my husband to me for the second chance. Things are so different now. We are evolving. I am still cautious. But as long as we keep working at it and communicate a lot I feel good.

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  9. It's been 6 months and it feels like yesterday that I found out my H was having an affair. Looks like it was an emotional ... Which totally consumed him. How long it has been going on I'm not sure , he said he had stopped talking to the OW for around a year .... Which I don't believe then stated again maybe a year ago.. So maybe this has been going on for three years ? Who knows?!! I don't believe any thing he says!!! He says he's told me everything ... But he has said the same thing before. I do see a change in him, but I'm always full doubts. I'm sick to my stomach every minute of the day. I question every aspect of my life. I feel I wasted the last 20 years , I feel I've been living in a caccon and life has passed me bye. The OW works at his job he says he hasn't seen her and avoids areas where she might be. I did text her when I found out about it using my H cell phone. He said he hasn't had contact with her at all since the day before I found out. How does a guy that was obsessed with this OW just stopped having contact with her and it be over??!! He said he doesn't miss her, doesn't feel anything regarding her!! I don't believe anything. It wasn't like he broke up with her. He said he saw her in the cafeteria right after and they just looked at each other and that was it. She's married with five kids and is around 38 years old and my H is 51. I'm so angry!!!!! Life at home is difficult... We go to marriage counseling together and then have separate sessions. I still don't know what I want to do. I feel that I don't want to made a fool,again, waste my time..etc .. I'm 55 and not getting any younger... I feel like I can just talk,about this at any given time of day... I need to get stuff out but I also feel that any questions about anything could b answered with lies as usual.. Trust??!! What's that... I also am stuck on the fact that my life has been a living nightmare, my son has gone through so much because of this, it's been HORRIBLE!! Yet the OW is living her life like nothing!!!! Her husband doesn't know about anything!! Her kids don't know anything!!!! Yet our lives will be for,ever changed and ruined !! How is this fair? I want her husband to know his wife who she truly is not for who,she pretends to be!! I even met her maybe two years ago and she gave me a pair of earrings my H gave one of her daughters for her birthday, I found out my husband bought them when I saw his bank statement, she had said they were just friends bla bla bla bla. She never told my H we met. Just typing this stuff makes me so sick to my stomach .. I don't know how to cope with this. I don't know if I can survive this with my H. My H says he will never do this again but I have my doubts because he said he hadn't spoken to her for about a year then went back to talking to her. I still in shock, hurt, angry, truly disgusted by my H. I need help because everyone seems to b living their lives and I'm dying inside.. And then I say for what??!!!! Maybe I should make it an even playing field and let her husband know, so the OW will know how it feels !!!!

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    1. Joy, my heart aches for you and your pain. First and foremost, don't compare your inside with anyone else's outside. In fact, don't compare yourself to anyone period. You are entitled to anger and all of your feelings. Be with them. It sounds like you still have a lot of questions that maybe your husband isn't answering. I would try writing them all out and then asking to work through them in counseling together. Until you have the whole story, you will not feel safe, you will not be able to process and heal. And if you are not feeling safe, what can you ask your husband for in terms of reassurance? Does he need to start a job search so he isn't in the same building as the OW everyday? Does he need to check in by calling or texting you? Think about what you need and then ask for it. You deserve to feel safe and to be treated with respect. For now, be gentle with yourself every day. Realize that a lot of people don't believe that an emotional affair is cheating. They don't get that it is stealing intimacy from the primary relationship. The OW may be congratulating herself for not cheating because she just doesn't get it. It is not your job or responsibility to teach her, as satisfying as some of those "lessons" might be. She doesn't deserve your time, energy or attention. She is a mess. You take care of you, put your energy into getting through each day. You are enough and all of us here see you and honor your pain, strength and resilience.

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    2. Joy,
      Often when we've been traumatized by betrayal, we become stuck, almost frozen in time, at the moment when it happened. It sounds like, perhaps, that's what you're going through. The feeling sick, the total lack of belief in anything he says, the hyper vigilance -- all are signs of post-trauma. What does your therapist say about this? In marriage counselling, are you working on accountability and trust? What do you need from your husband to begin to believe him?
      Of course, you don't have to stay with him. Leaving is always an option and I wonder if a trip to a lawyer to sort out what that would mean for you might also help you clarify what you want -- stay or go. Remaining in this state of limbo and misery is no way to live.
      You could also tell the woman's husband. I generally believe that the other spouse should know what's going on so that he can decide whether or not he wants to be in a marriage with someone who's cheated on him. There can be repercussions, of course. But, again, it's an option.
      You're not as powerless as I think you feel. Begin to sort through what your choices are and take back some of your power.

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    3. Joy, I felt so many of these same feelings. What hurt the most was my husband lying to me between dday one and dday two. They were five months apart. I look back as I said recently on another post at my journal. And it helped me to realize how far we had come. At the time I started journaling because I had so many thoughts and questions like all the time. I knew we could not discuss this all the time. I knew it was no good for either of us. Our kids never found out too so our time was limited. I would write down pages of thoughts and questions. Sometimes paragraphs sometimes bullet points. This was the best for me. As I let things sit I figured out what were my priorities to discuss. Things that kept resurfacing were the first things to bring up. We tried to always pick one time a week to talk.

      Also I too was so disgusted by his two affair partners. I thought how horrible are these people. One lives farther away. The other I would have panic attacks I would run into her at target or something. And checking on them on fb etc. One day around 9 months out I just decided I am not going to let these women consume any space in my life. They took enough already. I stopped all of it. And it was liberating. Granted I do not have a workplace situation but they both can call or email him anytime of course. I have no access to his work phone or email since he is a therapist it is confidential. But everything else I have the passwords including his work bank account. So all I can say is be patient with yourself. It is the hardest thing I have ever faced. I am one year and one month out. And believe it or not I said to my husband that I hate what he did but I am thankful that it all came out. It was destroying him the guilt and in turn our marriage and family. It was no way to live. We cannot undo the past but I am so thankful for the progress we have made. Hang in there!

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    4. Thanks so much for the encouragement. I have to say that I'm so tired of being the responsible one. Why is it that the OW can just come into our lives , f it up, destroy and conquer, and yet people say don't contact them. Think before you do anything. What about the consequences if we contact them. I totally understand it was my husband who crossed the line I get it. I did text her and said some things and now I wish I had said a lot more. I didn't do it to hear what she had to say, I could care less to listen to her pathetic lies. I did it for myself to get out what I was feeling at the time. I regret that it was rapid fire from my part I should have calmed down maybe a few more minute to get my cramp out. But hey I had just found out and I grab my husband phone and texted her. I am totally pissed off about her free ride of emotional turmoil. It's so f'd up!!!! I'm sooooo not happy, anger isn't the word how I feel. Especially since I had contact with her maybe a year and half before dday. She didn't give a shit about her marriage , her husband her kids so why do we feel the need to be silent , we worry about the consequences. My H said he didn't care if I found or if her husband found out

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    5. My husband had said he didn't think about him getting caught. He says now he was messed up. I think I can't move forward because of the fact she's sitting pretty . I wouldn't want anybody to get physically hurt, that's what I worry about, but we worry about other people, there feelings . It's endless and I'm so tired of being the one having to move forward, and try and make the best choices for myself and my son , even though he's 18 years old. So much time wasted, so much hurt, anger, I was married and single, and now I know why!!! I wasted so many years of my life just waiting for my husband. Making excuses for him , why he wasn't present mentally . He was always working. He also is a recovering addict. He's a dry drunk. He went back to meetings AA meetings . He's a recovering alcoholic, drug addict, he also picked up gambling and now we have infidelity to the mix. He hasn't gambled in two years, per se but he was gambling with his marriage with the OW. Just putting this out in the universe is sickening!!! I want to thank everyone for taking the time to reach out to me. It really means a lot.

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    6. Joy,
      I don't recommend not contacting the OW for any other reason than it so often just leads to you getting hurt even more. You're dealing with someone willing to lie to you to hurt you. You're dealing with someone who might say anything just to cause you more pain. And you're frequently dealing with someone who thrives on the drama and the contact and will take your contact with them as an open invitation into your life to wreak more havoc. What's more, you don't want your husband to have any more contact with her so it's dangerous for YOU to have contact. It's one thing to give her a final F%$# you text or letter. But then...let it go. Not so she gets away with it but so that you can leave her where she belongs. OUT of your marriage and your life.

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    7. I'm stuck on the fact that the OW is going about her every day life , she didn't miss a beat!!!! Her life wasn't affected. Her husband has no idea about who his wife is! Yet here I am along with my kids dealing with the hurt, anger, betrayal..... The list is endless!!!! I totally get it that my H crossed the line, yea I'm married to him. But can anybody clue me in where the justice is that this SORRY ASS OW is going and living her life without one ounce of any hurt, pain....I have nothing to say to her, I don't care what she has to say. It means nothing to me. Cause she's a lying piece of shit anyway. My H has said to me if it would make me feel better to get in contact with her husband to do it . Well when we were in therapy he brought it up because he had spoken to the therapist the day before about it. He said that I'm not a spiteful person, that if I did call him that maybe I would feel better for just a little bit. That me doing that is not me!!! That I'm not a revengeful person!!! I thought my head spun around like the excoriated. The therapist feels that in all the years of her working she hasn't seen the benefit of i guess

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    8. I told them both basically I will do what I want to do ,and neither one of them will have a say. I said wait a minute, so I have to be the one who has to think things through, I'm the one who has to think of the consequences, I'm the one that has to take the high road, I'm the one that has to b the better person, I'm the one that has to walk around like Swiss cheese everyday, nobody can heal my broken body but me, ... It's like why not have her see the crap she created, she didn't walk away from. Y husband. She accepted his jewelry , his time, his texts, his phone calls, they had secret meet ups in the hospital stairwells, her choice, her des ions .. And anything else that I say I will never know. I believe more times than none we get half truths. I'm so done with being the responsible one. The both of them didn't care about anybody but themselves , yet I have to b the one to walk away from the madness. Like I said I don't care to see her, speak to her. What I think about is if the husband would to find out , if he would want to do harm to my H or come to my house and do harm to me and my son. Who knows !!! But once again it's me being the one being responsible, I so done with people just doing what they want and getting away with murder. The OWhusband could even go to my H job .... But once again the OW and my H didn't care so why should I. It's so messed up that things r being shifted on me for me to do the next right thing!!!!!

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    9. Joy, I'm sitting here reading your posts and knowing I could have written them myself. I never contacted the OW's husband, nor did I publicize their affair to their co-workers, I often that she "got away" without any pain. My reasons for not contacting her husband were primarily based upon fear of how he would react. I did not want her husband to show up at their office and I did not want this to play out publicly because of our jobs and because we have two young kids. There is a part of me that still believes he deserves to know as the have been married for 19 years and have three children. I would never deny it if he contacted me, but I just feared his reaction and the damage it could cause.
      We've discussed this many times with our therapist and I've also questioned why I've felt like I need to be the responsible one. But here's what it boils down to... That's my nature. I'm not one to intentionally cause hurt to people, even those who have done it to me. I'm not held to being responsible. It's my choice. I could pick up the phone right now and call her or her husband. I choose not to because I've put some thought into the end results and none of them are worth the satisfaction of chewing her out or attempting to hurt her in the ways she has hurt me. It's taken me some time and a lot of talking and thinking it over to get to this point. I'm learning to accept that this doesn't make me weak. This is me. And I would much rather be me than her.
      As for the OW and her life continuing "normally"... there is nothing normal about stepping outside of your marriage. She may outwardly appear normal, but she's not. She may outwardly appear to not be hurt, but there is something going on inside her if she would be willing to do the things she's done. Maybe some of these women can avoid acknowledging what they've done for a period of time, but I do believe that more often than not, it catches up with them. In my situation, the OW ended up quitting her job and moving. As far as I know, her husband doesn't know, so she has to continue living a lie every day. She has to wake up every day and live with having behaved like a whore. And even if she feels no remorse for the damage she caused to me, she has to accept that none of her trashy behavior got her anywhere.
      Ultimately, what you do is completely up to you. When I finally realized that I had the power to make the choices based upon what I wanted and chose to be true to myself and my values, I found some strength in that.
      Hugs!

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    10. The ability to find such inner strength in times like this is truly a gift amongst ourselves!!! This journey is one that must be healed from within.... I think we can talk and share our feelings but in the end it's only ourselves that will make the hurt and pain stop. My question is how to do it??!!! My H says and asks what can he do to help me.... My therapist basically asks the same question..... If I had the answer to any of this I would have the golden Grail!!! The therapist asks me how long do I want to feel like this? How long do I want to hold on to the anger??!! All I can say I have no idea! What I do know is that I get no pleasure in feeling as I do!!! Nobody has the golden ticket for me... I would gladly take it. I can't fix this within myself, my rapid fire is less... Cause I don't have the opportunity to let it out as before. I'm slightly calmer. It's like a calm lake or really the lake appears calm but under neath there is such a current it's unnerving!!! How do you let go??!! How do you displace the angry?? I can't even relax from the minute I wake up to the minute I go to sleep. Everyone in my house is snoring and I wide awake with my thoughts!

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    11. I wish I had an easy answer. I can only tell you that for me a lot of this has come with time. We just passed the one year mark and it has been ups and downs for me. My H has been very remorseful and is doing a lot of hard work. I think that the fact that we are very open and honest with one another and that I see changes in him has been a big help. I've also spent a lot of time processing the pain, which is tough for me. I've spent my whole life trying to rush through pain and grief. Our therapist told me early on, and it's been reiterated here, that sometimes you have to "sit with the pain". At first, it thought that was crazy. But the I realized I wasn't going to be able to rush this. As much as my H is working on himself, I'm also working on me. I'm trying to get to the bottom of my own issues with self esteem, people pleasing, etc.. Initially, I realized intellectually that his affair had nothing to do with me, but in my heart I still felt I wasn't "enough". The more I read, the more he and I talk, the more we address in therapy, the more my heart comes around. We are both works in progress and so is our marriage.
      With time, I've also been able to let go of the notions I had of the affair in those earlier days. Once the anger settled and I was calm enough to see it for what it was, see her for who she was and my husband for how messed up he was at the time, it became harder to "romanticize" the affair. It truly was two messed up, selfish people doing really trashy stuff. Seeing that helped me realize further that it had nothing to do with me.
      I do still get angry, I still get triggered and I still feel hurt. I think there has to be an outlet for your feelings. Some work out, some journal, some mediate. I do a little of each. As hard as it is, you have to take care of yourself. I think many of us here find that we've spent years caring for everyone else and putting our own needs last. It's really important now to take the time you need for you.
      Hope this helps some! This site has been a HUGE outlet for me as i know it's a safe pace to vent. There are a lot of strong, compassionate ladies here who are at different stages of this process.

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    12. I'm of two minds around the issue of contacting the other spouse. On the one hand, I think we all deserve to know what the person we're married to is doing. There are health concerns and financial concerns at the very least to be considered when a partner is cheating. However...there's absolutely a risk when the other spouse is told. We have no idea what they might do to our spouse or to us. We don't know if our children will be dragged into it. So it's all a calculated risk.
      What I know for sure, however, is that trying to wreck the OW's life by telling is a mistake. For a start, I doubt it's nearly as satisfying as we think it is. And, frankly, we can usually count on them doing a pretty good job of ruining their own lives, we just might need to be patient a while.
      And finally, the women on this site are generally better than that. That's just not our thing. Revenge is living well and we're all struggling mightily to do just that. And, trust me, it's satisfying when we get there.

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  10. I have also gotten stuck on the idea that the OW gets to "get away" with everything. Mine is a "dumsel" (dumb damsel in distress) who gets to hear how brave she is, how much she has suffered, and that she deserves to be happy.
    We are advised by everyone not to contact the OW, and it's almost certainly good advice, but it leaves us with a gaping hole. How do we get closure? This person contributed, knowingly and willfully, to crushing our lives and traumatizing us, and we don't get to confront them. What do we do with that?
    I've railed about the skank to my H, who listens and doesn't argue, but I know he will never pass on that blame and anger to her. I've written the skank a lot of letters, never sent, and that helps me work off steam. I've also discovered, in rereading them, that I am on a journey...my feelings and the things I want to say do change, to some extent.
    I may at some point communicate with her, when the divorce papers are final and I don't have to be as worried about upsetting him. Maybe by then I won't feel the need. We'll see.
    All I know is, over 7 months out from Dday and in the middle of a divorce, this still consumes way too much of my waking thoughts. I yearn for the day when I don't feel like the Walking Wounded. It's got to be coming eventually. They are both so worthless, so unworthy of my time and thoughts. I want so badly to move on.

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    1. Phoenix
      I'm feeling your pain that divorce is hell to go through even if I'm still fighting to keep mine going, my h affair began just as our daughter was living through a very nasty divorce and custody battle! My h just checked out of reality and into a fantasy that turned our lives into a living nightmare! My daughter became a stronger woman who stands up for herself and just the amount of time I've been following your story, I know you are a very strong brave lady too! You will find peace again I just know it! Karma will take care of the ow somewhere down the line, it always does! You are right that they don't deserve your thoughts and the time spent thinking about them getting away with lies and cheap sex! So I'm holding you up today for you to find just a few minutes to go outside and listen to the birds singing and just let go and smile because you have made it this far!

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    2. Phoenix ... glad you popped in. Thinking about you ... how its all playing out but mostly how you and your girls are managing. Praying for you.

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    3. Phoenix,
      Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. Hope you are doing okay.

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    4. Yeah Phoenix,
      I get it. I wonder though if when you're finally through all this and able to look back with the relief that you're no longer dealing with his bullshit if you'll be able to just see them both for who they are: messed up people and you were collateral damage. People that cavalier with others' feelings aren't going to care...no matter what you do. They may, at some point, have an a-ha moment, but they often don't. Instead they blithely go on their way, always blaming somebody else for the fact that their lives are messy. As my friend often says, all we can do is keep our side of the street clean. And that's enough.

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  11. I initially bought the man's story that the OW was only trying to help him "save us" by filling in the gaps. I initially felt sorry for her getting sucked into what I felt was our mess because of that, I was in contact with her. I'm embarrassed and humiliated now that I ever felt sorry for her. It was a huge life lesson for me. But it also showed me something really critical up close. She didn't get away with anything. After months of confused disaster, I came to realize that she was actually utterly self-centered, self-destructive and basically a con.

    She ran a game from jump to play to his ideas about how bad he had it, feed his ego about what he deserved and wasn't getting from me, then hook him in with sex, flattery and appreciation for his perpetually rescuing her until eventually he left me and moved in with her to live happily ever after.

    She played to him like she was helping him save "us" and she would never get in the way of "us". Bullmotherfuckingshit. I am not sure how much of it she did consciously but it was a well played game. She nearly won. I nearly left him to her with her phoney protests that that's not what she ever wanted. I read her text messages to him... that's exactly what she wanted. Sometimes I think that would have been the perfect punishment for both of them. lol

    I can't pretend that she's out there happy while I continue to deal with my newfound insecurity, trust issues and disillusionment because I saw her go psycho when he started to pull away. A lot of us see signs of this in the OWs at a distance. Remember that they are desperate and messed up enough to play games with married man to begin with, right? She let herself be physically used in an attempt to hook him in. I think a lot of them play that game too. Maybe not even consciously but they do it.

    Then she went off the deep end, cutting herself and sending him pictures, threatening suicide, alcohol, drugs, being committed to the mental health ward -- full self-destructive. All in my opinion to elicit further rescue. When you don't contact the OW, you don't get to see her self destruct and it's easy to delude yourself into thinking she got away clean. But I honestly doubt that is ever much the case for these women.

    They had it coming. They deserve it 100%. I no longer believe they deserve any pity. But they all got burned in their own fire. Though maybe not enough for our taste... We don't have to wait for it, karma is already doing its job.

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    1. Aelia
      Amen to every word you said! My h has to live for the rest of our lives together knowing just how bad he hurt me himself the ow and even if we never speak of it again it's the first thing that pops into his head when he sees me with sad eyes no matter what caused my sadness!

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    2. That was hard for me too. I at fair put a lot of blame on the two ow. It was easier than blaming the man who I was supposed to be able to count on. And to this day he says they pushed him. He still takes full responsibility. But one woman he pushed away not giving his number to her for 3-4 years and she never let us. He always wore his wedding ring and he never hid that. He has since said these women are not good people who would do that. They were both single so what did they have to lose. Both were lower class and trashy. He knows nothing about them barely and was in two 10 year affairs. He has no idea if their parents are alive or if they come from divorced homes etc. He said he never cared about them on any level. All so odd but that is what he says. Saying all that I do not feel sorry for them in any way. He did not trick them. They were the main one to contact him in 95% of what I saw based on phone and text records. Maybe they thought there was a future or a pay day. Who knows, I hope karma does catch up with them at some point, it would be justice if either got married or even if their boyfriends cheated on them. But maybe that is the life they always lead. For a while I wanted to reach out to them more than anything to confirm what my husband had told me. In the end I decided not to. Why open up my world to them. Why even waste my time with them. Really there is nothing they can say or do. Even if they apologized so what too late. And my husband has said over and over it could have been anyone. These women are not special and never were. All I can do is be me and be true to myself. I can go to bed every night and look at myself in the mirror.

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    3. Aelia, I think you made a great point. For those who don't have contact with the OW, it's easy to tell ourselves that her life has gone normally. I had contact with the OW the day after the final D-Day via text. She responded to me with an apology. That apology means nothing to me now that I know all the details of the affair and her behavior. She made what I saw as a few veiled efforts after D-Day to try to get a reaction but got none from either my husband or me. I do not know if her husband is aware that she cheated on him or not. But several months after it was over, she quit her job (she and my husband were co-workers) and moved a few hours away. She may have "gotten away with" not being publicly humiliating her in front of her co-workers and not having her husband hear about her affair from me, but she still has to live with herself and all the filthy things she did. Like my husband, she has the opportunity to get to the bottom of her issues and turn her life around. A good start would be to tell her husband about her affair. From there, she could go about figuring out why she made the choices she did. Will she do it? I don't know. Until she does though, she will have to wake up every day with the knowledge that she intentionally worked to destroy my family but was unsuccessful. She sacrificed any integrity she may have had for trashy sex in public parking lots on lunch breaks. She behaved like a whore over and over again in an effort to get someone else's husband to love her. She has to look at her three daughters with the recognition that there are many other women out there like her, women who may come along and attempt to destroy her daughters' marriages as she tried to destroy mine. And when it was all said and done, she was left with nothing more than what she started with except the knowledge that she was used and that I have enough information to alter her world with a simple phone call, text or e-mail. I can't imagine any of that feels good.

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    4. I'm not sure I'd even give these women the credit of understanding or caring how their actions affect others. I don't think they'd be OWs if they were truly guided by that. They'd be sick with themselves before they ever got started.

      But I do think they put themselves out there - let themselves be physically and emotionally used, accepted less than they really wanted or needed, maybe asked or begged for more and are denied, believe his BS when he says he "loves her/will never leave her/isn't just using her/really cares about her but circumstances are complicated" when often the men don't even give two shits about them and basically treat them like a warm hole/masturbation aid but I'm sure if you ask the
      COWs, they were "in love!" and thought it would all somehow lead to a happily ever after if only the men would leave the wives that they often bill as terrible ogres while they rationalize their own behaviour.

      Imagine what that must feel like... to be that desperate, give up that much dignity and still lose... to an ogre HAHA That's got to feel pretty bad.

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    5. Aelia,
      Yes to every word. Just because we don't get to see the fallout in their lives, that doesn't mean it isn't happening. And it can be happening on a micro level. No thank-you! No matter how shitty it felt to be me on D-Day, I still wouldn't want to have been her.

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    6. Aelia
      You make me snicker when I read that she must be feeling pretty bad since she lost the love of her life to the ogre! I'm grinning like a Cheshire Cat just thinking about his ow just because when she did confront me the first time a year before the affair ended she did tell my h she understands why he loves me as I was a nice person that day! I'm guessing she has a much different opinion of me now!

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    7. Aelia,
      Oh my---your words stuck a (good) nerve...his whore must feel terrible since she lost her love to the sexless, boring, nagging ogre who didn't "understand him". Too funny...so, so glad you wrote that. Makes me feel better as I am still tortured by her in my head. Its been 3 years and he has yet to ever say anything bad or discouraging about her. Maybe it's guilt for the shit her put her through, maybe he's just trying to forget, maybe admitting she's an soulless whore reflects on him...who knows. But...your comment made me smile today. thanks for that....

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  12. Girls... true that... almost a year out my h will out of blue tell me hes sorry again and even if i dont mention or seem happy he thinks about it everyday on his own ... when i ask specifically he says hiw fucking stupid he was ... it was ... biggest regret of his life.

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  13. On another note the ow has nothing i want as i see it from an outsider looking in and a womens perspective which differs from a man thinking ow is damsel ... needs to be rescued. Im my ow case she was so desparate to put her finger on something her so called acts of love and reassurance were just a part of her game to get her needs met without much effort or work she mastered ego stroking and used sex as a way to multiple and when not getting her way was crazy threatening and almost child like i feel she was paid like a prostitute and really could have been anyone. Desparate broken and admiring my life only not realizing this life is work requires give and take and lots of grace like i told the ow you could never fill my shoes! Shes broken and truly looking for others to help her ... but sometimes you need to help yourselves!

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    1. Wounded
      I too came to realize I didn't have to compete with her because I wasn't the one that chose to be a'fuck buddy' her words not mine! I'm returning to the southern belle I was before my world began to swirl! Love what I learn from strong women like you!

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    2. Most of us get to that place, once the dust has somewhat settled, when we can see that the OW is nobody we would ever want to be. And when we get there, it's such a relief to be able to let that part go. She could have been just anyone.

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  14. It's all true, and I just need to hear it all again sometimes. I DON'T want to be her, or anything like her. She's NOT special. They ARE messed up, and I AM collateral damage. I know it, but I'm still grappling. The thing is, I've dealt with depression most of my life, and I know what it's like to be a sad person, and to power through. I did not, until this year, know what it was like to be an angry person. It's not been my nature. But it is now, at least for a while. I am an angry person. I am endeavoring not to become a bitter person.
    Thank you for the good wishes, prayers, and reassurances. I'm sorry I haven't been around. This time - April and May - is the busiest, most stressful time of my professional life. I will be crazed for another month, and then I will have a break. I feel overwhelmed, but I always am this time of year. It's remarkable to me when I reflect that I've basically gone through the last 7 months only using a fraction of my brain. I've spent so much time on auto-pilot. Thank God for the good people around me.
    It's been a week since I lashed out at HIM. I feel like an alcoholic counting the days since my last drink. I want to get beyond the place where I depend on him for anything, even venting; beyond the place where I let him see my pain and anger. Working on that....
    This is an amputation. A major part of my life is being amputated. It was infected, and it was killing me, and it needed to go - but now I am shocked and suffering as I learn to live without it. I feel like a big open wound walking around most of the time. But I tell myself that, for someone who still spends at least a small amount of time each day in the fetal position, I'm doing pretty well. I am making it. I will make it.
    My daughters are miracles. They are love and joy.
    Hugs to everybody!!!!

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    1. Cheering you on, Phoenix!!!

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    2. Oh Phoenix, You're a miracle too! You have such strength and such grace. And you're doing such a hard thing.
      Anger might not be a bad thing right now. I've heard it say that depression is anger directed inwards. Maybe it needs to be directed where it belongs -- at the person who made such a stupid choice and who refused to be the grown up you deserved. That's not encouragement to keep blowing up at him (I suspect that's not nearly as satisfying as it should be) but rather to not expect that anger to go away before it's been fully expressed. Maybe at a pillow. Maybe at the TV. Maybe on the pages of your journal. Maybe to your best friend. Maybe TO US!
      You will make it. And you will move forward into a life that's free of the stomach-clenching is-he-or-isn't-he pain you've been in. Hallelujah for that!

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    3. Phoenix
      I feel your strength rising to the top! Your girls will help you soar from the ashes of heart ache caused by people who are so messed up with themselves! You have a beauty deeper than you realize and a true gift for pulling yourself along the way! I'm cheering for you to make it through your rough two months of work and then I'm counting on you to slow down take a deep breath and just relax! God life is hard sometimes but I see such strength of character in you and that is what will get you to a better place!

      Delete
  15. Phoenix
    One day you will simply be amused at yourself at even the thought of doing ANY lashing out at him. One day you simply wont care about what he says let alone what he does...and it wont interest you in the slightest way if HE understands or cares, or thinks anything about you ever again. Ask me how I know...

    My Ex moved out three months ago, we did the Settlement Agreement, and since then I have heard not a SINGLE word from him. His last words when I left that day for work were "I love you". (Uh huh). When I got home he had packed and was gone. He has come back to my house behind my back three times (knowing I was at work) to ask MY adult sons if they would like to come over to his house for dinner or to go bowling ect...they said "NO...that would be awkward". Then he has the balls to tell them "I guess your mother has washed her hands of me".

    This is funny to me. He had the affair, he said he wanted a divorce, he filed, he moved out, and he is avoiding me at all cost...and yet, I washed my hands of HIM??

    True, I have not contacted him even once. Because I simply do not care to know what he is "up" to...I do not want him to throw his new found freedom in my face as if he had broken out of prison and try to hurt me with it. I have to take care of ME this time. I had prayed to God that he would not contact me once he left...there is nothing left to say and I do not want him to start all the lies, half-truths, blame shifting and mindfuckery with me again.

    Life is so much better not having to deal with all of that after ten years of battling him to honor me and our marriage. It will not hurt me to run into him with another woman on his arm...I KNOW what she will be getting. My biggest FEAR now...is him contacting me rather than the original fears I once had about our marriage ending. What a switch!

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  16. Oh...one other thing that I wanted to share with you Phoenix. A book..."Character Disturbance" by George K. Simon. This is the book that made it all "make sense" during my "Postmortem Marital Autopsy". You probably don't have time to read it now...but please consider writing it down and ordering it on Amazon...even just reading the reviews. It makes it crystal clear on why these men/women can easily do the things they did to us...and why so many of us are better off "jumping ship" when we finally realize what it would have to take for them to face off with their demons to REALLY internally change.

    Peace to you!

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  17. Thank you, precious friends. Y'all made me tear up over my coffee this morning. In a good way. God bless you!!!

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  18. I have a question... And I don't know where I can ask, that's why I'm posting it here.
    My D-day was 4 weeks ago and it's been a horrible emotional roller coaster. I will write about it here as soon as I can.
    But for now, can anyone tell me if wanting to know the names of the other women is better or worse for me?
    We went to a counselor and she says it's worse. That I don't want to know the details... But I'm not asking for specific details of what they did, just the names and wether it was more than one time. I also said cheating to me included non sexual things. Basically anything he wouldn't do in front of me.
    Anyways, I asked for a list- and he made it, still has it, but we went to the counselor and she convinced me not to look at it because she thinks it'll only hurt.
    Since then I found out a couple of names and it's another blow each time. I feel that if I have the names---- it'll be hard--- but I'll know and I can start the uphill battle of recovery.
    I also told him that once he gives me the names, then if another one comes out later I will know that he's still lying right now.

    So do you think it'll hurt more than help?

    Thanks so much....
    If I'm not making sense, it's because my thought are all over the place right now.

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    Replies
    1. Kay,
      Here is my experience with questions:
      In those early days I wanted -- needed -- to know everything, not just names. Everything. Without knowing I felt like I was stumbling around in a madhouse with a blindfold on and it was terrifying. And when I asked questions, I felt like my H was dismissing me. "It doesn't matter, I don't care about those women, I just care about you, etc etc."
      This is what helped:
      Our counselor told him "If it matters to her, it matters."
      Wow. You cannot believe how much hearing that helped me. And as time went by, I found I didn't need so many answers. But that was MY choice. Reframed our relationship -- moving forward with honesty and openness and mutual respect -- elements that (obviously, in hindsight) were missing and allowed him to have affairs in first place.
      So in my opinion, if it matters to you Kay, then it matters.
      Hope that helps. Hugs!

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    2. Kay
      Four weeks is just the beginning of the roller coaster ride of your life! The main question you ask is what and how much do you need to know versus how much you want to know and only you will know the true answer but from what I've learned once you know something you can never not know it! It's all painful and there are no easy answers! You are feeling the same feelings we have all felt to the degree we all feel them! The truth is knowing who they are and what they meant to your h have nothing to do with what you will need to get to a better understanding of the whole mess! God I hate to know that place you have found yourself in! It's excruciating! Just slow down take a deep breath and the rest of the warriors here will try to walk you through it! It's not easy and there are no answers that work for all of us! My heart hurts for you and each day you will know just what you need to know that doesn't cause you more pain! Hugs for the pain and confusion this is causing!

      Delete
    3. I can only to speak to what I needed. There were time I went against my therapist advice. At first I had to know places, events, sexual details, timeframes, gifts, money etc.... I should have been focused on other types of questions about him. How did she make you feel? Tell me about your resentments? What did you tell yourself that allowed you do this or that? How did you handle your guilt? You want to know questions about the affair that are character related so you know the man who you want to stay or go with. What of those boundaries did he cross? What didn't you like about her? What was your state of mind during the affair? I no longer accept "I don't know or remember. I press him and make him own it. He did it he has to own it, accept it. He gets no wiggle room anymore. I can only say it helped me. I know myself and what I need to get better.

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    4. Our therapist gave me a list of questions like what you're saying. They were rough as well. The first day we tried we quit because he said I was being mean just to be mean. Which I guess I was. I wouldn't let him finish his sentence and tell him what (I think) he was thinking. The 2nd time was better, but still hard. I have to detach myself so I don't bring the snarky comments and we can have an open honest conversation.

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    5. Kay,
      I agree with Sal and her brilliant therapist who said, "If it matters to her, it matters." We all have different levels of what we need to know. Here's what worked for me: I tried to give myself 24 hours to ask questions. If I still felt like I NEEDED to know, I asked. Usually, I'd forgotten what the question was (everything from what type of underwear did she wear to whether he met her parents).
      Try writing down what you need to know. And yes, doing with with the guidance of a therapist can help keep things on track.
      I guess my short answer? It's worse at first but knowing what you needed to know ultimately makes it better.

      Delete
  19. Kay. The books say and our therapist said...don't listen to the details. But I wanted the details. And I'm glad I got the details. I found her name out by accident after DDay because for 2-3 weeks my h was 'breaking it off' with the COW. In secret, of course. Yes, some of the details were nearly unbearable for me to hear and for me to work through. But for me, the way I work, is that the fantasy of what went on was far worse for me than the reality. As a matter of fact, I STILL want more details (it's been 22 months and 28 days) and he refuses by saying "I don't remember." So I remind myself that the sneaking, lying, fantasy life that those two had is something I now want to BE OVER and that what matters in our marriage and my mental health NOW.

    You are so brave for even CONSIDERING an uphill battle of recovery at this time. I admire your strength.

    I guess the only thing you can ask yourself about the names of the COWs is...."Will knowing hurt more than not knowing?"

    You are making SO much sense. More than I was at four weeks (and sometimes NOW!).

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    1. At least he had been trying to break it off. Mine would never have if he hadn't been caught. His words. Ugh
      Hey, what is the C in COW? I know OW is other woman. What's the C ? Or are you just affectionately calling her a cow??

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    2. Kay
      In my case it's for crazy other woman COW! Ours was certifiably crazy and had to go to jail once and then a year later had to be told by the judge to leave us alone or go back to jail! No affection in our case!

      Delete
  20. Kay,
    I'd certainly want to know the names at the very MINIMUM. Why should you live your life as the Marriage Police, viewing every woman that your husband interacts with as a "potential suspect". I'd rather not be "boxing at shadows" and just KNOW. You have every right to ask for and know ANYTHING that makes sense for YOU...there has probably been enough deceit and too many cloaked "unknowns" for you to have to sort through up to this point. It would be a good thing to expose WHO he had been messing with if for nothing else but to unveil and expose all the secrecy and LIES.

    You do NOT need a counselors permission to decide what YOU can or cannot handle. The counselor is supposed to advocate for the VICTIM (that would be YOU), rather than for the perpetrator (that would be HIM and ALL his conspirators/partners)...especially during "discovery". That means uncovering all the truth that YOU feel is important to YOU. Your counselor needs to get on board about who is the Victim here...and ENCOURAGE your husband to fully disclose anything that you feel will help YOU to decide if he is worth the "fight". The counselor is NOT the one to determine this for you...nor is it the counselor's "job" to save the marriage. This is YOUR decision alone, and the counselor is getting PAID to help you to get to the ENTIRE TRUTH so that you can make an informed decision for YOURSELF.

    You don't need to know the dirty details such as performances and the physical sexual stuff ect...but knowing the names will tell you exactly who the enemy players are. Knowing names is NOT the same as "pain shopping"...pain shopping is asking questions about how much he enjoyed each woman's attributes or how thrilled he was being with them and then using that information to compare them against yourself. Pain shopping is asking for information that paints a picture in your mind about how much "less" you are as a person than they are/were...especially sexually...or asking him if he is in love with one of them.

    And YES! Cheating is anything that he did with another woman that he would not want you to know about...that includes EA's and attempted affairs that he pursued, even if they shot him down. I'd want to know his "behind your back history" simply so that I can make an thoroughly informed decision as to whether or not I want to bother with the marriage going forward.

    Hope that helps...so sorry.

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  21. BTW Kay,
    Sweetheart, it "appears" that you are dealing with a serial cheater? My marriage finally ended recently because my husband "sprinkled" his cheating over a forty year span...oh, let's see...about one woman per every five to seven years or so. I found out about it a year after we were married that he had cheated on his previous wife...and I lived my life with him waiting for the same thing to happen to me. It did. I thought he had "learned his lesson" about being a faithful man from his previous loss...then BOOM! It seems that no matter who he is married to...he will cheat. Must be SUCH a thrill for him...the forbidden and all. He is 63yrs old... you'd think he had learned by now???

    Until your husband faces his Demons and finds out WHY he feels entitled to cheat (Character Disturbance) AND unless HE personally endeavors to TOTALLY change the way he thinks and feels about women, then knowing about even ONE or FIFTY names wont really help either one of you. He has a "self talk" litany that he uses to convince himself that he deserves to have whatever he wants in spite of the consequences or risks to either one of you.

    Personally, I think you should have your own private counselor to help YOU decide how YOU want to handle this on your own. Your husband can have his own counselor...then you can see if he is really interested in a true heart change (on his own) or if he is just placating you because he got caught.

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  22. Kay as what you need to know but be caution once you know you cannot unknown some details will connect the dots others burn like hot coal on your heart i feel u have a right to know anything you wish and for me even thou some details mind blowing and some caused extended mind movies months out i obsessed less knowing being able to create a tineline and senario that made since and again the mind movies suck but the onces i was created myself were full of romance love and spice ... cheap dive bars emotionaless sex and drama more like it 4 weeks so raw ask or wtite,it out to ask as things becime clearer hang in there

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  23. Kay,
    -Once you know, you can't unknow but to me, disclosure was/is necessary. Dribs and drabs of truth have taken their toll on me.
    -My advice is to take time to let the shock wear off before getting your questions answered. Come up with a list of questions then hang on to them
    -Find a therapist who can support your need to know. Our therapist kept saying that she was trying to protect me but I kept finding sh*t out inadvertently for 2 years. Brutal.
    -Set up a disclosure session with your couples therapist. Often times these disclosure sessions include yours and his therapist too--so that they can help with the triggers. It also depends on if he is ready to come clean. If he is still too ashamed, chances are he will continue to hide.
    -Like Sweetz said, I think both of you need to do a bunch of counseling to get your heads clear before proceeding with disclosure. In the meantime, focus on what you need to be sane and feel safe.
    Peace.

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    1. Great idea. Thanks. The finding out for 2 years is what I don't want. I can't stand thinking of getting punched in the gut with new (old) things for years to come.

      Delete
    2. I am not saying it is okay to hold back major details but for us I can see my husband was only able to tell me so much when he did. It hurt so bad learning more after the fact. But I think it is he really was not facing it or even sure if it was worth saying if we were not going to make it. He said so many men hide this and either agree to a divorce with zero explanation except I don't love you or it isn't working out.

      It is hitting me now just past a year I kept saying to him I need you to be patient with me. And at least in our case he was putting his energy into helping me and changing his daily habits. I was really stuck on the details. Some came but all did not. we have worked through this and now as time has passed it is more about how it happened and how to prevent it. But this took time which is good. And I think we will always be working at this. And honestly I think all married couples should, no one is immune to this.

      Some of the best advice was from here to just think of the next right step to take. Do not worry about next month, a year from now etc..

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  24. I just need to vent. We went to a fancy event for my H's work and he was the emcee. So many people there, and in our personal lives, think he is such a GREAT guy and he is... except for the dark side that only I get to see. He is super popular and charming... and sneaky.
    I just wanted to get up on his microphone and yell "He is a liar. When he told you he was working from home, he was out going on dates with his girlfriend or out getting sex massages down the street from the office." Even now, though he isn't cheating etc, when he "works from home" he is just goofing off and often goes in late and comes home early. They don't know what a phony he is.

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    1. MBS
      I feel your pain! I'm the one that wanted to keep this mess between the two of us as my h is one of the ones that truly learned what led him down the path and the experience left him a changed for the better man. I too had thoughts of screaming it out to humiliate him as much as I felt humiliated by his choice to cheat and the way his ow treated me post dday for six additional months! I'm grateful for his change and I guess I'm glad that I didn't do those things that would be more damaging to our already tattered marriage. I did put him through some pretty shaming shouting fits when I was triggered into a rage and it happened more than once! I always felt temporary satisfaction at telling him just how bad his actions hurt me and then I began to see how much I was hurting him and our marriage and I began to change me. I don't hold my feelings back now but I'm learning new ways to communicate with him so he can understand and do better! Just this weekend I thought I was going to have a full blown melt down as my h once again was being dismissive of my feelings when we were trying a new and for me scary activitie together. This didn't happen because my h took the time to finally listen to my fears and he realized that laughter was not what I needed at that moment. Then once I felt heard and calm again we were able to finish the bike ride and had a really good weekend together but this has taken both of us a lot of patience with each other! I'm so sorry for your continued aggravating circumstances! Hugs!

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    2. I have had these feelings so many times. People gush about my husband to me. Many times professionally which irritates me since he is a therapist. I think what a joke. His family goes on and on. People go on about his athleticism and I am thinking he is a middle aged man seriously.

      The worst is my friends. I have to hear them go on about how lucky we are that we found each other when we were so young. How he is such a great guy, so much fun, makes a great living, loves me so much....gag...

      It has been a struggle and sometimes I walk away. I say I have to go to the bathroom etc. I have told him almost every time this happens. I do not know if that is good or bad but he usually says that must be hard to hear. And it is.

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    3. Yep. Been there too. I do think that, with time, we're able to give our husbands credit for becoming better people. I also remind myself that I'm probably not as nice as some people give me credit for. We all have a shadow side.

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  25. Kay,

    I know you have gotten a lot of advice and I agree with all of it. I had so many needs and could not satisfy what I wanted to know. For me it was a way to try and control the situation. Over time I have gone through phases and it looks different to me at different times.

    I am just over a year past dday one. What I have learned through a lot of personal work is that I neeced different information at different times as we worked though this. For our situation my husband was done and all on board with no contact but dredging up the past was not what he wanted to do. So we had a major dday 2 five months later. It has been the hardest part yet I can see how it happened. Shortly before the one year date for dday I finally feel my husband has moved from the make me happy and try his hardest to being more honest and genuine and self reflective. I can see it in such a major way. So just think about that as you go things evolve for both of you.

    Saying all of that I did push and need to know some details. I agree that you cannot unhear anyhing. My husband never told me these women's names but I saw in his fake fb page under the searches the same names almost every day. Well it did not take long for me to figure out these were the two women. I think you have to figure out what you need. If the names help you then that is what you need. As time has gone on I care less about what happened since my husband cannot give me all the details I wanted. Based on his lack of memory and repression. Also his affairs went on for 10 years that were sporadic. So he cannot tell me the exact details. But what we talked about was the general meaning. And what was more important to me is what are his behaviors that led to this and how do we prevent it. But this took a while.

    I have said it a lot lately but what helped me was to journal. I wrote down thoughts and questions. In the beginning it was helpful to write the questions down. We agreed to set one time a week to talk about it all. Each day I would write down pages of questions. I could see patterns and also what was still bothering me. It helped me know what to focus on when we talked. There was no way we could cover everything I wanted to. And now at past a year it is good to look at what I wrote. I can see how far I have come.

    And as far as your therapist goes there are a lot of different training and thoughts out there. My husband happens to be a therapist. And he knows so many that do not encourage marriages but more the individual. And also many therapist bring in their own personal experiences and beliefs. If someone is not working for you seek out a new one. I wanted someone who was positive and pro marriage if we are both committed. Just like any profession there are good and bad ones. And it can be a personal fit. Also in some cases they need to temper what they say with both people and will work on it over time but this seems extreme and not helpful.

    Hang in there and ask all your questions. This is by far the best resource I have found.

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  26. Thank you all for your comments. I'm still thinking about what to do... I think I still want to know the names. And I just want to get it over with.
    Sweetz, yes guess he is a serial cheater... Or sex addict. He cheated on his first wife. When he was caught, she wanted to work things out but he said he wanted out of that marriage and that's why they divorced.
    I knew that getting in but... You know... We fall for it anyways :(
    This is the first time I've caught him cheating but it's been for a while and many women.
    But he swears he wants to stay and work things out. We're 4 weeks in and Tuesday will be our 4th time with a counselor. She's already mentioned sexual addiction.
    I'll post the story when I'm able to. From what I've seen here it's very much like everyone else's. Same old thing.
    Thanks again for your responses

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    Replies
    1. Check out this group for partners of people with compulsive Sex Acting out : http://www.cosa-recovery.org/
      It was a big help for me.

      Delete
  27. I don't understand this advice of not knowing details. The end goal is a more honest, open, mutually respectful and understanding relationship, right? How does starting off with a gigantic black hole of unknowns serve that? Yes, the truth HURTS. The details are going to hurt. But in my opinion, you have to dig the whole sliver out and clean the wound before it can start to heal.

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    1. I agree. I think she meant specific details. I don't know. My first question to her was if she was pro-marriage. She said yes. She seems genuinely concerned but I'm pretty confused about my judgment right now.

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    2. I wonder if counselors who recommend this are thinking pretty much the way the men often do... sweep it under the rug so no one has to deal with the full and proper fall out. Better good, sweet, forgiving you be told to stuff it down than for him have to look it in the face! He might get upset... you might say REALLY MEAN things for a REALLY LONG time.... LOL You might even decide to leave if you know how badly he fucked up!

      In the short term maybe it does look like it's a terrible thing for the relationship. But presumably we're in this for the long term.

      I feel like this is bullshit. LOL But that's my two cents.

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    3. Aelia,
      I honk the betrayed partner gets to decide what she hears and what she doesn't. I got a TON of details that added nothing but pain. Soninreally suggest betrayed wives to, as best they can, think about what they REALLY want to know and why. At a certain point, it becomes pain shopping.

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  28. I'm stuck wallowing and I'm having a hard time pulling myself out. I, and we, were doing so well when the baby was born that our Pastor even remarked that he thought we had gotten a negative DNA report from how happy, light and connected we seemed. The first few weeks were rough, but we still felt connected, but once the OW went back to work and we started getting the baby every day (at first, now it's about every other day), I, he and we are a hot mess. I cannot for the life of me quit wanting to go back in the last and change just ONE thing that might have prevented where we are, I love the baby when she's with us, but I'd give anything not to be here, in these shoes. I seriously hit rock bottom in the grief cycle a few weeks ago, and at first I thought my husband was reflecting that back to me because he was shorter, more easily upset, etc. but I really think his depression has flared up again because this is such a public shame and embarrassment. Plus, the ow respects boundaries in terms of not talking about them, wanting to be with him etc (although I do still believe she does, but that's another story), but I hate that she's forever a part of our lives. Her and I are able to work together and be friendly for the baby's sake, but she still (and I don't know why I expected differently) has no respect for me or my role in this. She will fight with my husband about the baby being with our family when he is not home/at work. I'm at stay at home mom now since I was between jobs when I found out about his initial betrayal and at first could not function to go back to work, and now feel being home is what's best for my son and my family. So 2 days a week I've got the little one all day and the ow will check in with me about how she's doing, but as soon as she thinks my husband should be home, she texts him asking him how the baby is, even if she's texting me at the same time about other stuff, it's frustrating. Her fear (immature, young, selfish) is that the baby will know me more than her or consider me her mom. The mom in me has compassion and gets it, the betrayed wife in me that knows she thought the baby would be her meal ticket to my life does not care. My H really does well at sticking up for me, fighting for me, but he's exhausted and pissed at himself (as well he should be) for putting himself and us in this situation and for having to deal with two women. Two weeks ago I would have said that the one positive that came from this is that I was learning to trust him quicker than I think I would have been otherwise because he was accountable to every conversation and text message between them, but then I started really struggling and we fought a lot and he lied last week when I asked him point blank if he's talked to her one day. She had called him yelling at him for not being home on a Saturday that we had the baby (he had to work) and they got into it and he figured if he told me, I would fly off the handle because my struggle that whole week has been about insecurities about the ow and her lack of respect for me. I found out about it and he was upset at himself and apologetic but said he felt like he was doing it for us because he felt we'd been fighting too much and he wanted to spare us that as our fights recently have gotten a little nasty, mostly from me. No excuses and back to square one, which as you all know is exhausting.

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    1. Out of the ashes
      I so understand how his return to hiding anything from you even if he thought it in your best interest! My h did a bit of that in the beginning because of how quickly I went out of control! Yes I remember the fear of thinking he's back to lies and trust just bottoms out! God I can't imagine dealing with a new born child as a result of his choice but I admire the hell out of how I see you continue to work hard for your marriage and the children's best interest. Your h needs to work on his guilt for having the affair because he will be reminded for the rest of his life by the fact that he fathered a child! I'm hoping you have access to therapy because it could become a stressful situation in the coming days months and years that it takes to raise a child! God bless you for all the strength you are showing even if you don't feel strong and I don't think you should have to hide from shame as that falls on the two of them for their choice to cheat! It is exhausting as you say for all of us but with a child in the mix I'm sure it's even more so! Keep venting here for as long as you need and just know we're all in your corner! Hugs!

      Delete
  29. I understand his point and reasoning, but I feel like it proves he's not made as much progress as I thought he had and that scares me. DDay #1 is Wednesday and I'm trying so hard to keep it together. There were a few more ddays after this one and the last anniversary in my opinion will be the baby's birth, so I feel like I've got another 9 months of anniversarys. This one bothers me because between this one and DDay 2 is when the baby was conceived, after DDay 2, they still had an ea until DDay 3, but no physical. I keep thinking if I'd have done something differently after DDay 1, we wouldn't be here, responded differently maybe. I stupidly took him at his word when he had told me it was an ea, that he deleted her number and wasn't talking and quite frankly, I was so shocked by the whole thing and so anxious to save my marriage, I didn't know better than to set boundaries, check up on him, etc. I remember reading an article on here at one point about fear vs intuition and I think I'm stuck in fear and can't get out. Thanks for letting me vent here. It's hard to find people who know exactly what I mean when I talk about his betrayal.

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    1. Outoftheashes,

      You are exactly where you need to be. You are not stuck. Your are just at the spot where fear is real and time and experience has not allowed you to let go of fear. Crap-tastic stuff has happened and your fear is there for a reason. You will get past it some time, you will see more clearly one day. You weren't stupid to take him at his word. We married because we trusted another to hold and protect our hearts. But people fail us. And they need to learn how to be better than they were before before they earn our trust again. Your fear that he will screw up is real because he really did--over and over again. Don't rush yourself.
      Thinking of you and how hard this must be.

      Delete
  30. I'm hiding at the park today while our cleaning lady is at our house because I just can't handle telling one more person the truth right now, or talking about it, as I believe she probably knows because she attends church with my grandmother and can't miss the baby stuff in our house (she comes once a months and I hide each time). I so badly want my marriage and what we had been rebuilding and we have backslid so badly I'm losing hope we'll be able to rebuild what we had been working towards.

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    1. Ashes,
      I'm so so sorry for the pain you're in. As so many have already said, we are blown away by what you're doing and the incredible grace with which you're doing it. But you are not superhuman. You are someone who is being asked to wear the evidence of your husband's betrayal daily and publicly. And that adds a level of pain that I can hardly imagine.
      As MBS said, your fear is real. And the pressure you re each under is incredible. What support system does each of you have? You need people in your daily life who are there for you. Raising children is exhausting at the best of times.
      As for the OW texting him, etc., can you put "rules" in place? I suspect she doesn't need nearly the contact she has with you or him. If the child was in daycare, she wouldn't be able to send umpteen texts. Perhaps consider just how much contact feels okay to you. You're raising kids, not being her pen pal.
      Ashes, she is so lucky to have you in her life, even if she has no idea how lucky. I know a couple of men who write cheques each month and have nothing to do with the child of the affair. This child is lucky. She will benefit from your kindness and compassion. And, I hope, despite the pain, you will benefit too. I hope that, once this raw pain begins to abate, that you will find some joy in this and in this little girl. Your grace is staggering, Ashes. But please make sure someone is taking good care of you.

      Delete
  31. Out of the ashes,

    I want to say I think about you daily. Thank you for sharing so much. i keep thinking your husband and your son and the baby are so lucky to have you. It is so hard even in the most normal circumstances. Are either of you individually or as a couple seeing a counselor? Maybe if you were to work with the right person that would help. Custody arrangements in any situation are difficult and change over time. Maybe a professional could help with that.

    I think that it is smart that you are staying home and not adding the pressure of work. I felt the same way after dday 1. My job was phased out and I could not deal with even thinking about work especially starting something new. It worked out well for us. I was able to focus on me, us and the kids. I miss the fulfillment of work but it was best. Also I know how easy it is to beat yourself up about when things happened and if you did something else. I think what if I pushed harder, what if I looked at the phone bills... I was the one the paid all our bills. I never thought to look. I never thought to pick up up his iPad and look at the history. But in the end it is so hard when someone lies to you. And if they wanted to do it they would find a way is how I feel about it.

    Hang in there and keep the updates coming.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Lynn Piddling PainMay 2, 2016 at 11:45 PM

    Out of the ashes,
    I really don't know how you are doing this, living each day babysitting the result of your husbands choices. You have a heart of pure gold. Three DDays is enough in lifetime. I think of you frequently too. What is astounding to me is your post have no cruelty, harsh bitterness or brittle soul. Even in the prison system it is three's your out. You sound like someone who hugs the hardest, laughs the loudest, and can breath fire when needed. I admire you and how you are handling this pile of shit handed to you.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Im approaching the 1 year mark of dday anxious ...and eager for it to pass. Thinking back it will also be 2 year mark of when i recall a text he got saying i love you .. i saw ... we fought and he wouldn't let me see his phone ... after hours of fighting he gave me a # i thought was bogus and i never called
    .... damn it ... i see now that was the ow real number if only i would gave called granted he cheated but shortly after that is when it got out of control lies money sleepovers when i thought ge was working ... the amounts of time and alcohol they consumed breathtaking. If only right ... but i cant blame myself for being a loving trusting wife. Cant change past only control me and try to look ahead. Trying everyday im in a different spot then initial dday aftermath ... im sitting w the pain waiting for it to lessen .. envolve and hopfully fall further back in that damn rearview mirror. Just venting trying to not get overwhelmed its only a date right then why does it feel heavy at times? But in some ways i feel lighter too .. like 1 yr we r still here working trying ... standing

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wounded,
      Anti-versaries are tough. No way around that. The looking back with such sadness, the looking forwardnwithnsuch fear. I think the best we can do is note that we're still standing. That we've made progress. That we're going in the right direction. You'll get through this, and then the next, each day a bit stronger. A lot wiser. Lighter.

      Delete
  34. Wounded,

    My one year of dday was March 13th. My husband knew the general time frame but had no idea of the actual date. I guess it falls in place with his lack of ability to remember dates. I was anxious about it. What was hardest for me was I reflected a lot on what happened in the months leading up to dday one. That was really hard. Almost shocking what I had grown to tolerate. And it was more shocking compared to who he is one year later. So it was hard but it was good too. Anniversaries are a time to reflect not just celebration. I really did take it as a time to reflect. It was hard to remember that raw pain. As we have moved past the dday one anniversary I now have been faced with annual events that we went to together post dday last spring and wow how far we have come. I did tell my husband that I hate that he did this but I am glad it came out last year. Where we were was not good and now things are in a whole new place. I realized that I was in a trance for probably 6-9 months but as the year anniversary approached I felt a lot of clarity. I feel more stable personally.

    Now things have shifted to focusing on him diving in deeper as to why, how this all happened. And how he can prevent this in the future. I thought he had processed what he did even though he still has guilt. But I was wrong. He was putting his energy into me and our marriage not himself. So that is what I am pushing for now.

    Hang in there and take it day by day. I hope these weeks are healing for you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hopeful30,
      Sounds like you are in a pretty good place, all things considered. Day by day, is the best advice. I'm glad you're among us.

      Delete
    2. Thanks to you Elle and everyone on this site. It makes a world of difference. I feel lucky to have my therapist too but it is different here. Being amongst others who have been there is so beneficial. For me it has given me strength. It is easy to fall back into old habits and it is easy to change personalities. But when I read here I get strength to advocate for myself and think of things in a different way.

      Just last night we had a major pivotal conversation. The work and healing continues.

      Thank you everyone for being here.

      Delete
  35. Hi, I haven't commented for a while, but I've been reading on here a great deal.

    To recap, I am five months out from finding out that my husband has had six short affairs in our 18 year marriage. He got caught with four of them, and admitted the other two when I told him to tell all or I was out.

    It has been really tough. He struggles to talk about what happened. I've done a lot of work on myself...daily reminders that this is my choice to stay, and telling him things that he doesn't want to hear.

    I've accepted that we haven't had the marriage I thought we did, and I have told him that whilst I won't leave him, I don't feel the same about him. He has lost my respect, and on a realistic level I am happy with my life - we are financially secure, live in a Beautiful part of the world and have four healthy happy children. I have just accepted that I won't have the romantic relationship I had hoped.

    Some days I want to seperate, because my marriage feels like a loveless prison sentence. Other days I am kind and gentle to him and he responds.

    Truth is, it is still early days and I just don't know. He isn't willing to look into himself or examine his motives. I've accepted that he will cheat again and I will just need to get used to it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Piper,

      I am thinking of you. It really is all so hard. All I can say is five months seems like forever but my advise is to give it more time and be patient. I am one year and two months out from dday one. My dday two was at five months. And we were married 20 years and my husband had two sporadic affairs over 10 years. It was all horrible and devastating.

      I look back at last year to everything Mother's Day etc. and both of us and our marriage is so different. All I can say is I am glad I stuck it out so far. For most of the first year it was me dealing with it all in phases. But not until a year did my husband start to deal with it more. He had changed a lot of his habits and made improvements but real deep down reflection just started recently. He is not the person he was last year. And I actually just a week ago told him I forgive him for what he did. I did not know if and when I would ever get to that point. But seeing him listen to me and start to do the real work beyond making day to day changes helped. I thought my husband was over the whole thing since he had broken off the affairs over a year before I found out. But really he was not. He thinks about it every day and has tons of guilt, regret and remorse. And just as I needed to work through it so does he. Just as he was patient with me I am doing that with him, still with boundaries and expectations in place.

      For me looking back at the past was so hard. Thinking all my memories were ruined and all the time he was detached and not a good person to me or our kids. As we redefine our marriage though this is our chance to get it right. But it took time to get to this point. And just like I was lost and in a fog for most of last year so was he. He does not remember things he said to me. He does not recognize himself. But he is happy and starting to like himself. These are all big steps. It is so much work but worth it. For me I wanted to know if we stayed together or divorced that I gave it my all.

      Have you seen a therapist even individually? That really helped me a lot. It helped me work through the important topics and what to say to my husband. Hang in there and give it time. But figure out what you want and need and start talking about it. Try a once a week meeting, that worked well for us. Neither of us wanted to talk about this all the time.

      Delete
    2. Piper, parts of what you say sound like my journal. Happy with my practical life but feeling like this dealt a permanent blow to romance. Loss of respect for him. Loss of pride in him and no longer feeling lucky to have him. Remembering how it felt to be crazy about him and excited just to see him. These parts are still painful for me.

      On the bad days, it feels like friends with benefits. On the good, I can see why I used to adore him but I can also see how messed up he is. For now, I've decided to let myself feel whatever I feel and not worry about it.

      Hopeful 30,
      We're at a year and a half and I am just starting to see signs that he's sorting through some things on his own. And like you, when I look back, I can't believe I ever used to live like that.

      Delete
    3. Piper, your last sentence really resonated with me as it nails exactly what I am feeling in my own nightmare. My H won't go to therapy with me, he refuses to admit anything until I put proof in his face, I know he's in contact with AT LEAST one of the OW, etc... All my attempts at setting up boundaries fail, because he knows I won't follow through with anything. He has told me he doesn't have romantic love for me and is only here for the boys. My kids know what is going on and have seen and heard some horrendous things over the past year and a half as we struggle through every single day. I can't forget and he's not helping me to feel secure by any means. I admit that I keep lashing out at the latest OW and I think it's because my lashing out at him does nothing so I need some other outlet for my rage. I have been reading this site for a long time and another poster had once asked - do I hate the OW more than I love my H? I wonder if that's the root of why I stay and feel that I will just accept it because I do not want to hand him over to her. I'm just so lost... I have some friends that I talk to, but I spin such a different story to them and pretend we both are trying to make it work because I'm so embarrassed. Reading you write that you just need to accept it broke my heart and made me want to scream to you that NO!!! YOU ARE BETTER THAN THAT AND WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT!! WE DESERVE TO GIVE AND RECEIVE ROMANTIC LOVE IN OUR LIVES! But, sadly, I can't even practice what I preach.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous,
      I'm struck by your ability to really see your situation clearly...but your inability to take steps to get out of it. Do you have a therapist? I suspect much of your inertia is due to years of being beaten down. Your anger might be providing something of a steam valve but it isn't serving you at all.
      Could you at least meet with a lawyer and see what leaving might mean for you on a practical level (i.e. financial, custody, etc.). Better a divorce than a home filled with resentment and fury.
      You can do this, Anonymous. And Piper, if you choose. You can create a life that's worthy of all the gifts you bring to it. It will feel horrible at first. The "devil you know..." is tempting. But if you just keep walking through the horrible discomfort, you'll find something amazing waiting for you. Your life.

      Delete
    5. Piper,
      My heart reaches out for your pain. You last paragraph is saying, "No Hope For Me". Many times I felt no hope for me ever. He is a shit and he is not going to change. I took the wait and see approach. I had nothing to lose. I wasn't about to hand over 1/2 of our savings to a poison ivy whore. It was still raw while I waited it out in a fox hole but I would have to go through that anyway. I said to myself and therapist, I'll give it six months. I said to myself a year out, he has cancer and I have good insurance so that is least I would do for any human being if I was able. A fox is sly and so is a survivor. Things change it is inevitable but in what direction remains to be seen. Don't give in to hopelessness because with or without him you have hope in your hand. I went to therapy for 2 years and recently started again. I'm looking for my power this time. My power. You can find yours to make the right choice for you. I stayed, he changed and my therapist validated the changes are real. But I have to tell you, to give you a laugh, today, his truck was dirty so I wrote with my finger on his truck like a vandal, "whore truck" on every side except his. I may sound like I have this all wrapped up in a box but I'm still dealing with it. Passive aggressive yes, but I still don't give a flip. It is a trade off some days but other days it isn't. Check in and let us know how you are doing. You are not hopeless.

      Delete
    6. Piper
      I'm so feeling your pain and loss for the relationship you thought you had with your h! I too felt hopeless and the romance was so fake! For me this past two years I have seen my h struggle with the romance that I thought had been a big part of our lives but it was never romantic each and every day before his affair and I don't know why I thought it would or should be other than the fact that his ow drove it down my throat how he romanced her and they fell in 'love'. Only after my h explained the whole affair and I realized it was her that fell in love with my h he just wanted sex, which by the way didn't make it easier just because he didn't love her he still cheated and lied, I was able to really look at our past together in a different light. I can see him try to be romantic but it just isn't easy for him and so I accept that I won't have the story book romantic h but I do have a h that is willing to be a better man who does the best he can! Trust me when I say this didn't happen in the first five months! It's been an uphill battle to get to where we are now! You are the only one that can decide if he's doing what he needs to get to a better place and become a better man! Hugs! I just know you can get to a better place too!

      Delete
  36. Officially... over or should i say thru the 1 year mark of dday. Just saying.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. And I'm just saying....that's awesome! Onward and upward.

      Delete
    2. Wounded

      Welcome! I am glad you made it! What w feeling to move past that invisible time frame.

      Delete
    3. Indeed ... alot remains and alots also changed ... still a work on progress but a year out ... thats a big deal making the 3 to 5 years to be on top of this seem well ... more attainable i hope! All we can do is try ... remain taking care of me and on so so days just show up.im learning to stay in present and feel be aware of past but try not to dwell there ... there can still be sparkle in my day everyday good bad whatever all my days!

      Delete
    4. The first one has got to be the scariest. =) Grats Wounded!

      Delete
    5. I agree with Aelia. I think that first year is a huge hurdle.

      Delete
  37. Thankyou Hopeful

    I have two things I would like advice on:

    1) my dreams. During the day I am fine...functioning well. But at night I am dreaming vivid dreams. Last night I dreamt that I husband gave me a poster of his texts between him and the recent ow (she was the most damaging) and there they were, verbatim. I didn't even know I knew them so well!

    2) when he is not here, I don't want him. I have made the decision to leave him again and again but when he is here I can't do it, and I bury my feelings and carry on.

    What do these things mean? I'm going to see a new counsellor as my previous one go to emotionally involved (!) and said that she was struggling to see my husband as anything but an asshole, and she gave me some advice that was out of her role as a counsellor.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Piper, I'm glad you're seeing a new therapist. You need someone who's objective but compassionate.
      It's always hard to stick to our guns when faced with the actual cost of it -- ie. looking into someone's face and hurting them. Frankly, it's part of why people cheat rather than own up to their issues with their marriage/life/selves.
      I think we have to learn to get really uncomfortable in order to be true to ourselves. For too long, we've made every else comfortable but we've paid the price.

      Delete
    2. Piper,

      What helped me was listening to music while I slept. Or having it ready when I woke up. I just helped me. The other thing is I really journaled a lot. It helped me get my thoughts on paper and not as prominent in my mind. I also found for me at least I liked my husband to be closer to me so I told him to sleep right next to me.

      That is great you are getting a new therapist I agree! You need sound advice but not too emotionally involved. All I can say is I had those feelings too. I know everyone is different but for me it took time. Once we got past the one year mark things changed a lot. I know it is different for everyone but for me I had to be patient. My therapist said this is normal and time does do a lot to help. I think seeing a new therapist is a great step. For me that was huge having someone as a sounding board and honestly telling me I was the normal one. Marriages are tricky and each have their own dynamics. Mine had been for 20 years and habits and routines are hard to change but with the help from my therapist I was able to advocate and learn to expect what I needed and set the best boundaries for me. Still a work in progress.

      Delete
    3. Piper... Omg... the number of times I decided I was done with him at work and changed my mind when I saw him at home... I know if I wanted to go, I'd be out the door in a heart beat so it isn't me just folding when he bats his pretty eyelashes.

      When he's around, I can somehow "feel" that he was acting based on a mountain of stupid delusions, assumptions, dysfunctional beliefs, selfishness and entitlement. Progress on these is good but they have deep roots in him.

      That said, there is something intangibly reassuring when he's around. When he's not, I care less about his perspective and the scales tip in favor of leaving. Sometimes dealing with his issues/this mess is miserable enough that I start to romanticize about how much nicer my life is when he's not there and wonder why I'm bothering but that ignores the ways that he does make my life easier.

      I wonder though... if you're accepting that eventually he's going to cheat again... why not just suggest you have an open marriage? Go find yourself a little romance! Why should you have to stay home holding down the fort while he does whatever he wants? This line of thinking helped immensely in getting my man to really realize that I was, in fact, not okay with his behavior as he had decided I was and I was not going to just stay at home waiting, safe and loyal only to him. I think a lot of men think because cheating is so common and "men have needs" and blabbityblabbitybullshit that we're really just fine with it and it truly never occurs to them that we aren't until we ram it down their throats.

      Delete
    4. This is so interesting. I have wondered since this all came out what my husband would have thought if I had been the one to cheat or in addition to him cheating if I had too. I never asked and he has always taken full blame. He said he has searched his mind and memories and has tried to blame me for something and has come up with nothing. He said I am too nice and that I should have asked him to leave. But that is all in the past.

      But he told me he had a nightmare the other night. Usually it is the kids find out what he did. But this time it was him finding out that I had cheated on him and my friends telling him what a jerk he was. I asked him how it made him feel and he was down and not happy. I said so it was not in some way to make you feel better like on even ground. And he said never he hates even the thought of it and then went on how I am perfect, which I never like since none of us are perfect. I found it interesting though he had this dream and seeing him say how horrible it would be for me to do that. It made me glad but also irritated me. It is nice to see that it affects him in that way that I would hope it would and also where our marriage is right now it would be a shock. So interesting how we all see things especially men and women.

      Delete
    5. Piper,
      There are free podcast with meditation for hurt, grieving, pain whatever you are feeling. These helped me so much. I would go to sleep with ear buds in. Somehow it washes away the shit. I did this for several months.

      Delete
    6. Regarding dreams and nightmares, this will probably seem pretty out to lunch to some people but here goes anyway...

      I personally believe that dreams are an attempt of our unconscious to get us to take care of ourselves by dealing with things -- frequently whatever we're refusing to admit to ourselves, stuffing down, hiding from others, terrified of, or not properly dealing with while we're awake. Try to figure out exactly what message it's trying to send you and then process the feelings/talk about it with someone/express it somehow/figure out what steps you can take to address the fears and you might find the dreams let up. If you were wrong about what it was, you'll probably get another dream soon that attempts to clarify the first. Keep trying until you get it. Dreams function in symbols and images and love things like puns, double meanings and plays on words. Try to sort out what any odd images in the dream "symbolize" and you can extract some meaning out of even the weirdest of dreams. You'll only know you're right if you get a big -- Aha -- or -- Well, fuck... -- sensation lol Dreams can be immensely useful.

      Delete
  38. My story:
    We had been married for 4 years when all happened. I had no idea. He confessed to have an affair in his job. Immediately I decided to separate assets and planned to divorce. The assets separation was done, I kept the house and the biggest car. After speaking with my grandparents and my parents (extremely wise people) we decided not to divorce (still we kept the assets separation), my husband was really repentant, he ended the affair and quit his job immediately, we deliver together his resignation letter at his boss’ home to never again go back to that office. We let God in our lives and decide to restore our marriage.
    The first years were very difficult, I couldn´t believe he had betrayed me, he was the second "almost perfect" man I have ever met (the first will always be my dad). I got really angry sometimes, and started verbal fights, I acted as a violent prosecutor but my husband was humble and patient, that helped a lot.
    The last 5 years of our marriage have been the best of all (13 years). I am really happy, I feel so happy with my entire life, I am living an extremely blessed life, some days I feel so overwhelmed by joy. For the ones that are starting to restore their lifes, there is hope, the coming years will be better!!!.
    But once in a while, a day before my period (not all months, thank’s God!), I get depressed, this never happened to me before the betrayal. The depression is terrible, but lasts only 1 or 2 days.
    I am living one day at a time, remembering that we all are imperfect humans and trying to make the most of each day. My husband has being so nice and supportive.
    2 years ago I quit my job and now I am a full time mom, I am enjoying so much this part of my life.
    I hope and pray to God that you all take the lead in your lifes and be whole again.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Anonymous,
      I'm not sure what your age is but depression in middle-age is quite common. Melissa also points out that there might by other physiological issues as well. I think a trip to your doctor might be a good place to start.
      I'm glad you've been able to rebuild your marriage and are enjoying this chapter in your life.

      Delete
    2. Hello to everyone!!!
      I wanted to share that I found out what's going on with the depression I have 1 day before my period. It has a name, it is called PMDD: Premenstrual dysphoric disorder (PMDD) is a condition in which a woman has severe depression symptoms, irritability, and tension before menstruation.
      I wanted to share my finding so anyone else that suffers that can explain better to their Doctors.
      Anonymous May 10th.
      May God bless you all with all kinds of blessings, specially peace above all understanding.

      Delete
  39. Anonymous May 10, in regards to your depression prior to your period… I struggled with that much of my life. I then spoke to my gynecologist and he recommended exercise and eating healthy. Although I felt that I did that, I found quite by accident that for me, vitamin B 12 and vitamin B6 often bought together in a B complex vitamin, does wonders I take a B complex daily with high dosages of B6 and B 12 and if I miss it, I become teary, especially before my period and more recently as I am in perimenopause. It's funny, doctors and medical information note that vitamin D3 is the happy vitamin… For me, without a question, B complex is my happy vitamin. Peace & Light

    ReplyDelete
  40. I also tend to revert back and be more sensitive the day before I get my period. I am always like what is wrong with me. Like everything just is so hard and things make me want to cry so easily. I am going to look into the b vitamins for sure. Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  41. Right there w you ladies period time i overthink ... feel and am sensitive ...i notice this ever month.

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  42. I've found that I am always more emotional just before my period is due. I have a tracker app on my phone which is really helpful. If I'm feeling particularly off I can check and -most times - it is adapt or two before I start.

    I also feel a big release of negativity once it starts and I am much more balanced in myself.

    I am finding I cannot discuss sex with my counsellor yet. For me, it is just not something I can engage in without feeling sick and repulsed. I have tried to share this with my husband but I don't think he gets it.
    Will this ever change? Before dday and even shortly after we had an active and healthy sex life, now we don't even kiss.

    I'm so frustrated. I have a great life, I love everything about it except my husband. If we seperate I will lose my great life, and it seems so unfair that I get to lose it all because of his actions. Is it wrong to stay with someone just because you don't want to change your lifestyle? It's not like we are fantastically wealthy, more that we run a small farm and I can't afford to run it alone. We would have to sell up and the kids would have a major change. My daughter is taking exams in the next year and it would be a massive upheaval for her.

    I do love my husband. But I am not in love with him anymore. How can you love a man that you can never trust in the company of other women? I have lost respect for him, and feel he has done little to make amends. His favourite responses are "it's all in the past" "we could be dead" or, super sarcastically "oh good. Back to this. It never gets old"

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Piper, I love your honesty!! You can get the love back in your life but you have to be 'in it' together. This isn't going to work with you doing all the hard work, your going to be left feeling resentful widening the gap between you. I speak from experience, my h had the affair I did everything I could to repair our marriage where he just wanted to paper over the cracks it was never going to work. 3 years out and I'm rethinking my life over whether it be with him or not?? I really didn't apply the boundaries as I should have I see that clearly now and as Elle always says boundaries keep us safe, they stop us from falling into another trap.

      Piper have you had counselling independently or together?? If not I'd recommend getting some. One thing I regret is not having enough counselling post d day it really does make a difference. We live and we learn. Making mistakes is ok as long as we learn from them.

      Rooting for you piper let us know how you get on xxx

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    2. Sam a

      Thanks for sharing that, I reread your post and I find it interesting your perspective after three years. I find it challenging since how I felt at dday and every day since to one year out is different. It seems to me my boundaries and expectations are shifting. What I thought was great at three months past dday is not enough now. I would say my expectations and boundaries are elevating as we move through this. My husband and I have discussed this and I find it interesting. Some boundaries that were so hard to establish have become a regular habit for my husband. We will see where it takes us but your comment makes me think I am doing something right and I need to be vigilant with my expectations and boundaries. No backing down. Thanks!

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    3. Your welcome hopeful : ) long may it continue. sounds like you are both working really hard to rebuild your marriage. Big hugs to you both

      Xxx

      Delete
  43. I had a thought while driving, I wish my husband would have given me the same chance before the affair that I'm giving him now. He did not give me a chance prior to the affair to help get our marriage straighten out before he ran to the OW. But he is grateful for the second chance I just wish he would have extended the same to me.

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  44. Right! I hear you. I gave all of me to our marriage and he couldn't even give it a conversation.
    He understands now, thru counseling, how much better our marriage could have been if he had been a full participant from day 1. (The fact that I was apparently okay with him not being a full participant in our marriage up until I was smacked in the face with reality on D-Day is a story for another counseling session LOL.)
    My problem is now that he acknowledges how much he screwed up, I have developed a holier than thou attitude about it. "Oh, the sacrifices I made!" I know it's not healthy for healing the marriage and I really need to chalk it up to "life's not fair," but... I'm not ready to let this one go quite yet...

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  45. Amen....my H said the reason he had an affair was because the "spark" had gone out of our marriage. Never once did he talk to me about how unhappy he was. If he had. tried talking on me at least once before running to the OW we could have maybe avoided this whole mess......frustrating

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  46. MY 28 year anti-versary is coming up next week. I have been married for 28 but my H has only been married for 10 years. I've told H that several times over the past couple weeks. My stomach hurts and I can't stand it. This month is making me sick. Knowing what I know now, about the places he went, the lies he told, the out of town trips with OW for business....I just want to make it through this first whole year since Dday. In my screwed up mind, if I can make it to July 11, 2016 then I can honestly say new memories can be made. Memories that don't include that fucking OW who unbeknownst to me was a part of every holiday, anniversary, birthday, graduation, every fucking day - every day, whether it was phone calls, lunches, dinners, texting, fuck-timing (FaceTime), emailing....
    I do want to make new memories - but I am afraid; I'm scared, and it is paralyzing some days. It was suggested by someone here on this site to read some of Brene Brown's books - I've been doing that and I think it will be life changing for me. Super hard personal work, and I am trying....but I don't feel I am that good at it yet. Last night, I was so done with all of this pain - I mean really. I am done with it - it still hurts... not just like Dday, but it is sad.
    I don't want to wallow in my pain, but I am trying to deal with it. My counselor asked me if my H is doing the best he can at this moment, is that enough for me. I told her - based upon how I feel - I guess not. More to the point, is it ever going to be enough? If H isn't capable of giving me what I need, is it enough? She likens it to this: You ask for a gift wrapped in a box; your H gives you the gift you ask for but its in a gift bag; All I say is "But I said I wanted it in a Box". I got what I asked for, but it wasn't EXACTLY the way I wanted - so is it enough?? I think about this every day. This is EXACTLY what I tend to do.
    I would like permission to skip the entire rest if May and just go straight to JUNE.

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    Replies
    1. A1998,
      You have my permission to go straight to June. Hell, go straight to July 16, 2016.
      Nothing will magically change on that day. I want you to understand it's an arbitrary date. There's some power is setting a deadline, sure. But YOU get to decide when this new life starts. It could start today.
      I'm glad you've found Brené Brown. Her work is life-changing. And you've got so much pain to wade through. But you're doing it, A1998. You're doing it. Congratulate yourself for that and if you need to take a break and just coast for the next month or so, do it. Listen to yourself. Be gentle with yourself. Nurture your heart the way you would a dear friend who was going through so much shock and pain.
      The other answers will come. Maybe now isn't the time for answers. Maybe now is question time. Or quiet time. Or hang in there time.

      Delete
    2. Thank you Elle - sometimes it's too hard to just sit with the pain and sadness. But I am doing my best.

      Delete
    3. And sometimes we all need to just acknowledge how hard this is. Nobody, nothing could have prepared us for how fall-on-our-knees devastating betrayal is. But, as you know from this site, we make it through. We laugh again. We not only survive, we thrive. Betrayal doesn't break us.

      Delete
    4. A1998.....You are so damn brave. Still standing. Still a warrior woman. The scum that was done behind your back? YOU matter, never mind at the moment what was done. Just for now. Just for now, focus on YOU and ONLY you. What you need. How you feel. How you have your integrity. How you are strong. How you are beautiful. How that COW (crazy other woman) can NEVER "beat" you. Because you are living proof that, as Elle put so well, betrayal doesn't break us. Change us, yes. Break us, hell NO. And if you want to set a date to "begin fresh" then you do it. This is YOUR design, YOUR dance, YOUR recovery. Let your H in as you see fit. But most of all, love you. You are the reason to rejoice.

      You are worth it.

      Delete
  47. Dearest 1998,
    You have been through hell or a never ending nightmare but you are stepping forward each day. I understand that one year pain. I remember it well too well. Why don't you have your own survival unwhored anti-versary? Celebrate that you are sane, alive, found a job as I remember. Your husband sounds like he is limping along but still limping with you. I thought at the one year mark-the pain would be less butt wasn't. The second year is better but the pain pulls me down every so often. Elle and friends pick me up again. I can remember my therapist said the same thing. No matter what he did it wasn't good enough. I made myself look for the good in him almost like when I'm lost looking for an address. It took me two weeks to see one good thing. I can't give any advice except do what makes you feel better if only a little bit. Stay busy and keep your mind occupied. Don't you realize the kind of strength it takes to stay with your H after what he did? Don't you realize how how you worked on just about everything? Don't you realize you see the truth and living in the truth, in the moment? Don't you realize how independent you are? I truly admire you for trying so hard under the circumstances. My therapist told me this week, love and hate are not separate but the same emotion. You can't hate anyone in a personal relationship without love. If you didn't love then you would say so what? She said she could tell how much I loved my H because of how much I hated him. Crazy huh?

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    Replies
    1. LLP, This is what finally convinced me that I still love the man.... I still get pissed at him. In order for someone to hurt you, you have to care about them and their opinion of you. Love and hate are two sides of the same coin.

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  48. LPL - Thanks for your kind words. I know I have created this "one year" time deal. Deep down I know the pain is not going to disappear. I am giving it my all, as best I can. I am giving my all to build a new marriage and most of all to help me figure out ME. I am trying to be grateful - which means I must see some good in everyday things, people etc. I doing my very best.
    I want to find more good in my H - I am just having a really hard time. I am learning to ask for what I need - which in the past I just stuffed down. But I'm taking a risk by asking - because the potential to be let down is HUGE. Unfortunately, my H is struggling with follow-through. I don't mean "in the way I like it" or "exactly the way I like it". I just mean - if you say you are going to do something - DO IT. No excuses - no explanations, just do it. Put me, put us first - for once. H gave up the girlfriend, but he can't give up his other girlfriend....work. Never tells work "no", never puts work off, always available for work. Always....and there's always a logical excuse - "What, should I just quit my job?", or "It's just one conference call" or "just one email" or a "short trip". Boundaries, I tell my H. Boundaries.
    Ehh...I'm going to work in the back yard today, I like working with my hands, even if I do cry now and again - it's peaceful, satisfying and I love to sit in the evening and look at what I accomplished :)
    I like the Love/Hate - it doesn't sound crazy to me at all - we love them, as hard as that is, we do.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous 1998,
      None of us do anything without some sort of reward (no matter how unhealthy the reward is). Your husband's hyper-focus on work is rewarding him in some way. Ego strokes, financial rewards, a sense of purpose. Are you two in therapy? This is something that you might be able to address there -- that his "choice" of work over spending time with you is painful to you, that it's unhealthy for your marriage. Men are so socially conditioned to think that addiction to work is some sort of virtue that it's really hard to de-program them. But, with the help of a therapist, you might be able to get him to see that there's an unseen cost...and you're both paying it.

      Delete
  49. Hi ladies. Today is a bad day as i am sure you all have experienced. Yesterday was fine today i have just gone back down the big hole. Sometimes reality kicks in and i don't know if you all feel it but i feel like an idiot a fool that was just taken the p.... out of for about 2 years thinking everything was going to be ok and being told 'i love you everything is going to be great' and all the while behind my back the contact is still going on, laughing taking photos have a joke and a laugh at MY expense, who cares about anyone elses feelings lets just do want we want!!. One day i will get the pride and confidence back and like myself like i USED to. Why do they just strip us bare of everything :( x

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    1. Jilly55

      I am so sorry to hear this. It is so hard when you are working to build that trust and something like this hits you. Just remember this is his issue and problem in the end. I know it affects you and I get that pain but he needs to want to change. Do you see a therapist alone or together. For me that has been the biggest support besides this website. Thinking of you and best wishes.

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    2. Jilly55 my prayer for you is that you like yourself MORE than you USED to. Give to yourself. It's all about you, woman. Make some boundaries and if your H can't agree, you have some decisions to make at some point. Setting all that aside, LOVE YOURSELF. ADORE yourself. You are worth it. Stand TALL, smile at your, and reassure yourself that you WILL get more good days. That big hole is a dick to get out of, but you'll make it. You go girl, you have hundreds of us rooting for you!

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    3. Jilly55,
      That does feel like a kick in the teeth. I suspect though, that if you were to imagine someone else being treated as you were, you would think the cheaters were the fools, not the innocent wife. How foolish to take some sort of perverse delight in deceiving someone. How ridiculous to think you're clever simply because you're good at lying.
      You have your integrity. You have your strength and your courage and your sense of decency. Which is more than many can say...

      Delete
  50. So we have moved past the one year mark and made some major headway in our marriage. I would say the majority of the first year was me going through multiple phases multiple times but really close to the entire year after dday one. As we were leading up to and passing year one and I was improving a lot personally my husband started I would say to face, deal with and recognize what he had done on a deeper level. This has been great and we are more open, transparent and honest than ever. Still a work in progress especially on his side but he keeps working through it even if it is slowly. I am trying to grant him patience like he did for me for the year. Now I would say when I have an issue of concern I am more matter of fact less emotional or hysterical so it is easier for both of us.

    The one thing we have not really dealt with or only touched on is pornography. I would love to hear from others and even Elle more about this. There is more information than ever out there about it. Our story is I brought it up probably a month after dday. I was told by my husband that he watches it once in a while. So I accepted that. Well as I read more I kept pressing him then it was maybe I watched it four times a week and maybe it is a distraction and way to detach. The only time we were not initiate was when his affairs ended which I find odd but that is what he tells me, so there was a period of time where we were not intimate. So as we have been working on our marriage I would say my husband is fine having sex once a week. It seems kind of sparse to me. And I know there are different compatibilities but my concern at first was if he can watch pronography but not want to be intimate with me that seems to be an issue. Well this has gone on as a topic over the past year. Honestly we were working through all the affair issues etc I guess as more of an issue. As we have gotten through that I feel like this is our last big hurdle.

    So I am asking what is acceptable and normal, or is nothing acceptable. I have read and have concerns about the compulsive always available always able to satisfy with endless variety leading to something related to affairs/flirting behavior/being more receptive to attention from women etc. So what connection is there to affair behavior. It is something typically done in secret like affair behavior. For our relationship my husband has no lack of desire for me but perhaps with age if he is using pronography even a couple times a week that will or might be affecting our intimacy. And in the end if I am honest after being hurt through betrayal the was I was it feels like I am being betrayed and he is choosing that over me. I do not know if that is common to have that feeling or not. And if he never cheated on me and wanted to have sex every day with me maybe I would not think twice. His justification in his head is that this is something I have done forever and it is totally different and no as satisfying as being together with me. But after explaining how it feels in the context of the betrayal he understands it more. I would love to hear from Elle and others. Sorry this is so long but thank you,

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    1. Hopeful,
      I think both Theresa and Aelia made good points. It has to be more about what works for you in your relationship. I knew my husband watched porn prior to finding out about his affair and, honestly, I viewed it as something that kept him from harassing me for sex. What I didn't know was how often he was watching it. It was not something we did together to change up our sex life and the majority of it was hidden from me. With everything I know now, it was clearly a problem. Eventually, when the porn was no longer enough, he moved on to the OW. Sex between them was him acting out his own porn. She was content to do whatever he wanted and it was always about him. In hindsight, I now realize why I felt more like an object than a partner prior to finding out about the affair.
      Given our circumstances, porn is not an option at this point. I haven't done as much research as others may have, but I see it like an addiction and I don't think he needs to take that risk. He says now that even thinking about watching it makes his stomach turn because of the person he was when he was using it. I don't think the porn was the sole reason for his affair, but it was a factor that certainly didn't help. He's getting at the more deep-seated issues in therapy. Whether or not it's something we will revisit down the road, I don't know. At this point, we're both comfortable with the frequency when it comes to sex. I feel like a partner and not a prop. And after everything we've been through, I think we're far more emotionally connected than we've ever been which makes the physical part much different, but in a good way.

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    2. I feel like I need to clarify that when i said I see porn like an addiction, I mean for my husband specifically. There are plenty of people out there who use it and never have a problem. That's just not the case for my husband.

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    3. Hopeful 30,
      I tend to consider porn much the way Dandelion has described. For some people, porn is a pleasurable indulgence now and again. Like a piece of cake. For others, it's not so much a choice as a compulsion. And that's where it becomes dangerous. Porn, especially what we see now (versus the old Penthouse days) is pretty hard-core and mostly misogynistic. Women are props, not people. It would require more space than I have there, but my thesis is that porn is often a gateway toward infidelity. Porn tells men that their desires are the most important thing and that there is always someone willing to satisfy them.
      Whether or not porn is a "choice" for your husband or a compulsion is less important right now than the fact that it's making you uncomfortable, especially given the role you feel it has played in the betrayal. I'm no expert, but I think four times a week seems like a lot of porn, especially when, from the sounds of it, you'd prefer more intimacy/sex.
      Sounds like it's time for a discussion of the role he thinks porn plays in your marriage, the impact you both think it has on your sex lives and whether or not it's time to take a break from it and just see what happens.

      Delete
  51. Hopeful 30
    I'm sure that there is no answer for what and how much porn is acceptable except is it making you uncomfortable when you know he's using it. I didn't see anything wrong before and even viewed some of his videos for ideas on sexy underwear however post dday I don't like him watching porn. One Saturday after lunch I went to our bedroom and didn't fall asleep but was hoping he would follow me for some cuddling. When he didn't I returned to the living room and he was watching a video and I told him it makes me feel like he's cheating again. I explained that it makes me feel left out and not needed as much as the fantasy women are. Especially when I am in the next room just wanting to be cuddled and loved on. You also asked about how much sex is normal well again that's something only a couple can decide together based on age and physical capabilities. My h and I have had the same hysterical bonding that has been described by Elle. In the beginning he would come home for lunch and slip in a quick fix and by the end of the day be ready for more. Even two years past his last encounter with the ow somehow our sex life has taken on a more normal routine of every night he's not traveling for work or we are not staying with family members out of town. He's been using viagra for years and even with the drug he can get it up and going but not get to the finish line. I'm sure that his inability to get to the end is frustrating but there really isn't anything I can do that changes that for him. Generally though those nights are when I get all the cuddling I need and the next morning sometimes he's ready for another try so what I'm saying is you and your h get to decide what is and what is not happening inside your bedroom! It'll be interesting to see how others feel about this! Hugs!

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  52. Hopeful 30, Mine is also a porn fan. What makes it easier for me is that he has a more "come play with me" mentality. Though I find porn gets boring really fast. I enjoy it for a little while after which I just let it be background noise. The sex is no where near as nice as connecting with each other but it's a different flavor that I don't mind in reasonable doses. I need to get a connection fix before or after somewhere else or I get resentful so it needs to be sandwiched between cuddle time or something similar. He would dearly love it if I enjoyed sex more as a mechanical experience but that's right about the point that I zone out and start making laundry lists or redecorating the bedroom in my head. lol

    I've heard the "it's totally different than sex with you" argument before. I think it's because it's more mechanical. There is no connection with those people of any kind. There is no need to please those people. You have no real life with them. So yes, hopefully it is a completely different experience than with you. For mine, he tried this relationship with the OW initially. Eventually he discovered that she was mentally disconnected (surprise!!! lol) and tried to connect with her, at which point his nice little mechanical arrangement started to go to hell. She got pissed that he wouldn't spend the night etc.

    Basic moral of the story is that it seems to me that men can have disconnected sex/disconnected porn viewing and actually do appear to experience it as fine, acceptable, separate and distinct from us in their minds.

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  53. First thought - I just realized I have been victimized before - three times in fact. Second thought - the OW has no accountability for her actions. Thinking of roadblocks to happiness.

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    1. Lynnlesspain
      I was stuck for a while in the beginning as the cow continued to make her feelings seem more important than mine and I screamed at my h when are you going to say something more hurtful to make her leave us alone! I watched him try for six months of her constantly reminding him 'how special we are and don't settle for less than you deserve'. Then when she really became crazy and threatened to knock my door down with truth that's when my h grew his balls and filed harrasment charges. That only stopped her for four months and then seven months later she contacted him again requesting a meeting for drinks and no hard feelings. Well h had her reminded by the judge of the no contact order or go to jail. So for another year she has to leave us alone and just the way my h has shown his changes in himself has made a huge difference in the path our healing has taken. I too wanted to make cow accountable but in the end she chose to continue contact when she knew he wanted her out of his life so she's had to pay in more ways than one! I'm through giving that cow any power over me! I stay busy to keep me from dwelling too much on anything from that part of our past and slowly I've found myself happier than I thought I would ever be again! I too have some tough days and allow myself to wallow for a bit in self pity but I need happy and can't live with the depression I get from being angry or hate for another human being! I only have pity for the cow. She has to live with herself and look at herself in the mirror and know that she was the one that was willing to be nothing but a whore and fuck buddie to a man who used her lied to her just as much if not more than he did to me and that is my way to deal with her accountability! God I wish I had better words to help you through the need to care anything else about the ow in your situation! But just know I feel your pain and I've walked in those shoes and I have gotten through so much and I know you will too! Hugs!

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    2. I too have pity for the ow's. My husband was involved with both at the same time, in online chat rooms, on fb. In a way that helped me. Not that it makes anything better but I look at it and think these women were not special to him at all. Nothing was working for him or satisfied him and he was so messed up and broken. He was cheating on everyone. He said once he made the one mistake he felt it was irreversible and almost felt like he was on this destructive path. But as he says he had the biggest wake up and reality check of his life starting on dday. I get resentful at times thinking why do I have to be in this position and why do I have to work so hard. The redefining our marriage and the rewarding days and moments keep me going. And in the end I believe that I am glad this came out. I cannot imagine being in the place we were for so long and me never knowing why. I have answers and can make decisions based on that. It is terrible it had to happen but I see the glimmer at the end of the tunnel.

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    3. LLP,
      Your comment led me to my latest post re. the impact of that mindset on your own healing.

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  54. Melissa Lemonade

    Melissa, can't find your original posts about Lemonade...
    Finally watched it on one-year anniversary of DDay. Closed myself up in my bedroom to watch the video right after work, then ditched the family to power-walk for hours listening to album in ear buds, twice.

    Wow. Beyonce is a genius.
    I only wish she had included the Warsan Shire poetry on the album too -- I must read everything from this Shire now. And I don't like poetry. And I don't listen to music when I walk. And my itunes playlist is almost only 1990s Dixie Chicks and Broadway musicals (I know! But I can't help myself LOL.)

    But wow, this Lemonade. What a gift. I am in love with Beyonce right now. So glad you encouraged us to watch Melissa! Most productive therapy I've had in a while.

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    Replies
    1. Dixie Chicks and Broadway musicals!!! Yes!!!!!

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    2. DC's "Ready to Run" came out the year I married. I should have paid more attention to the lyrics... :) Oh, life.

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    3. I don't know how I would have made it without my music. Been immersed in "Hamilton" for the last month.

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  55. Sal, I am so glad you find it therapeutic... and thank you for the poet's name; I agree, it would be great on the album too.
    There is so much that speaks to me. And musically, I love albums that have a variety of sounds, flavors - Beyoncé did it up right - ballads, hip hop, rap, reggae, the New Orleans flavor - incredible!
    I wish we could get together and watch/listen and talk about it.
    Are you going to watch it with your husband? I mentioned it to mine, but for now ... it's mine ... my catharsis. Hugs Dear!!

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    Replies
    1. I know! Right! I wish we could compare notes in person. I'm just talking to myself about it instead. Fingers crossed not out loud in public, but hard to say these days.
      And agreed -- she's all mine. Dying to sneak out for a walk tonite with my earbuds and my Beyonce. He can see how it feels LOL.

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  56. Had an Ah-ha moment recently. Realized I'm dealing with a full-fledged narcissist who has no proper awareness of the effect his body language, actions and words have on how I feel about him and therefore how I respond to him. It was a really sad ah-ha.

    He thinks he does so much for everyone and can't figure out why no one seems to "care enough" about him to even "try" to make him happy. It has just sunk in that our entire relationship has been him pouting about this. Withdrawing into games/tv/gym to hide from feeling like nobody cares. Only now, he's talking to me about it.

    All this because he has no clue that he acts like an asshat to the people who care about him. He has no clue how difficult it is to please him if you can work yourself up to the point that you give a fuck enough to bother trying again after the "constructive criticism" you received after the last failed attempt. I am slowly getting through to him about this... I can see the changes.

    It makes me wonder how many of us here are dealing with undiagnosed narcissism - going round and round in circles trying to do the things that we are told work in normal relationships but which get you no where with narcissists. I just wanted to leave a note here in case some of the other ladies might see some similarities. The keyword search here is "vulnerable narcissist."

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  57. Aelia I have one of them exactly the same as you described. Always out to do for other people who don't matter but treats me and the kids like we aren't important or worthy of his love and attention. Craves attention because he is insecure about himself. Exactly what you described aelia how do you work with a narcissist???? I've given up trying

    Xx

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    1. Sam A, Yup! Mine was out feeling sorry for someone else while at the time regularly going a week or so without even speaking to me. But he won't remember that and if he does it will be my fault until I remind him it wasn't, then it will be a misunderstanding but it will still be my fault a little bit because I should have known somehow at the time that it was just a misunderstanding... lol

      The best resource I've found so far is Wendy Behary's book, Disarming the Narcissist. I'm still trying to absorb it but I think it might be golden.

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    2. I'm not as familiar with narcissists as I am with those who are borderline Asperger's. Socially awkward with no sense of how they come across to other people. My in-laws are full of them.

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    3. Thanks Elle and aelia, I hate putting a label on things but on the other hand I really believe that my h behaviour is not 'normal' not my normal anyhow. Then I read your stories and their are so many similarities in these men. I think my family and friends get annoyed with how I think there are always underlying reasons for behaviour I'm not excusing any of it but surely healthy human beings don't hurt their spouses intentionally.

      I'm still separated from my h and have no plans to change that but I am still curious as to why he does what he did when he supposedly lives me and kids. He's admitted he needs help and just hope for his sake he gets it and quick. He's started the blackmailing stuff of ' if I don't have you and kids, I'll kill myself. I Made it clear that his emotional blackmail will not wash with me I'm dealing with enough of his shit right now without that on my head.

      I'm feeling a little stronger today, I think the minute he sees me stronger he gets weaker but that actually makes me feel better to see him weak and pathetic. Is that bad??? I've no compassion for this man right now the absolute opposite of I'm honest.

      Thanks for listening ladies xxx

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    4. This is very different than the pure social awkwardness of Asperger's and similar. He can be acutely aware of my emotional state at times - particularly as it pertains to how I feel about him.

      If he's upset about something - doesn't even need to be related to me - that makes him feel badly about himself, he might brush past me like I'm a ghost, not look me in the face, brush off my hugs/touch, have angry body language, say deliberately hurtful things and hide from me in a video game etc. Actually, he is regularly upset because when he is like this I don't lovingly soothe him! There is no awareness that his behavior is hurtful.

      It's infuriating. Addressing it in any way used to led to me feeling like shit about myself without understanding why (blame shift, btw) so I just let it go and didn't take it personally.

      I realize now that I was hurt anyway and emotionally/sexually withdrew because of it which he blamed me for and he "needs a girlfriend" because I'm an ice queen without ever having to recognize his role in anything.

      So right now, when he does something hurtful or as soon thereafter as I can, I tell him what he did and how I feel about it.

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    5. For my husband I think he had/has some tendency towards narcissistic traits. I think being in his affairs only caused them to get worse. It has taken a lot of work and effort but I think he sees things differently now. It has been a process. Between his friends and family they build him up so much most of the time I think back then that just added to it. And our relationship and marriage can never be like that constantly. His friendships and family relationships are a lot like the affairs. It is easy to act a certain way and have fun in these circumstances and when it is not day to day life. And when you are put on a pedestal all the time. Crazy stuff.

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  58. Hi Ladies, please could anymore help with a question that has been bugging me for a long time that might be obvious to someone else. When my husband was having an emotional affair (so he says, there was no sex) why did our intimate times disappear. I always thought that he was having a physical relationship with this woman because of the lack it in our relationship??? xxx

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    1. With my husband, it was an online affair that led to a one-time meeting IRL. He wasn't able to go through with sleeping with her. But he felt so guilty about it that he couldn't be with me, knowing he was going behind my back. It was the same for his porn addiction throughout our marriage. If you Google "sexual anorexia", you'll find useful information.

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    2. jilly55,
      There could be many reasons. I think it's a myth that men need to be "getting it" somewhere. Men who are cheating sexually are often MORE sexual with their lives too. It's like it re-ignites some drive or something. Similarly, it could just be that his focus was elsewhere and you became something like wallpaper or background noise. It's a question to ask him, I think, if he's at a point where he can really look at his behaviour with curiosity and a genuine desire to learn from it.

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    3. Jilly55, I'll toss another vote in for it possibly being that he felt bad about himself at the time. Definitely more difficult to feel sexy when you feel like you're being awful to someone you love. Maybe it felt easier to just avoid sex than deal with the nasty feelings?

      I think the sex might ramp up for some when they cheat because they feel like hyper-desirable men at that point. I must really be something! I have two women who want me! Mine was just the happiest little man on the planet when he thought that was going to work out for him.

      But I totally agree with Elle. This would be a good question for him.

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  59. Jilly ... disconnecting... building a wall or making it seem lovingingless even if exaggerated greatly seems in opinion to allow them to lie to themselves to somehow make what they are doing ok... continue and somehow ration why its ok ... clearly pure fantasyland bullshit nothing authentic way to compartmentalize further or separate it ...

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    1. Yes, I think that's quite true. They need to create this "story" they're selling themselves that their wives are disconnected or sexually unavailable or whatever they need to believe.

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    2. I agree with all of this. My husband had two physical affairs and chat room, fb and email things going on too. When did sex decrease/stop? When he ended the affairs. Which was a year before dday with the one, the other there we was just email contact 2 times that year.

      And Elle I did ask extensively about this. He basically compartamentalized while in the affairs. He said it was hard after he saw one of the two women since these were sporadic affairs. One he only saw three times over ten years and the other there would be 6-8 month breaks. So as time passed since he saw one of them he would get closer. Looking back it was rare for him to be intimate without drinking. I think he could not deal with it sober. And then once they ended he said he felt so much guilt and shame. He felt like he had done irreparable damage and did not know what to do. He did not want to hurt me so he was distant. He tried at times but he said it was hard. He thought about just leaving me and never telling me. It is all so hard to understand from my perspective. I still have bad/hard days and weeks. I try though to focus on the work ahead and improving what we do have. We had 25 years together and kids. I felt that even though in the moment I wanted to get rid of him that I know myself and I had to stick it out and give it all my effort. I have said it before but it took me a year to really deal with it. And once I was feeling more settled I realized my husband had not truly addressed his deep issues. He made behavior changes and we set new boundaries. But he was so focused on helping me feel safe and start to trust him. But these past few months have been about him looking inward. He knows he has one second chance and he has told me how much that means to him. We talk about some serious topics and he is finally not defensive. I do not hold back and bring up what my concerns are. But when he was in those affairs he had no clue, he was guilty, ashamed, falling deeper into a black hole with no way out he felt. He had to tell himself whatever he could to get through the days and that was not great things about me or our marriage. It is all so messed up. But what I never thought could be possible is happening that our marriage is better than ever and more open and honest than ever. Little steps though and still with caution on my part.

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    3. Thank you everyone, that does sort of clarify what if felt. He accused me of not making the first move and not making him feel desirable shall we say so yes that would make him feel better. When you have another woman dribbling all over you what can we expect. Thank you for your reply love to you xx

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    4. Hopeful 30 -
      But what do I do with a man that was with OW for 18 years - more on than off. I don't care if it was an every day thing....it was contact every day - maybe not sex all the time, but definitely verbal or text or FaceTime every day. The OW was married - but never had children (well fucking duh! - she was too busy fucking my H who had a vasectomy when they met) ...no children to this day and still married to her H. My H always wanted sex - ALWAYS. But now that I look back, there were periods of time when he seemed "tired" or "too busy" or whatever excuse.... maybe they had broken up or something. I just don't know.
      But after Dday our sex life was the absolute best it has ever been.....but for the past 2 months..... it's a struggle for my H. He can't finish...sometimes can't even get started....because I am so damn hurt and mad - my comments later are: "You fucked that whore for 18 years and wasted whatever you had on her...you better find a damn way to get it up for me" I am embarrassed to say this - but I sure as hell mean it. He wasted my 30's and 40's on someone else - now I feel like all I am getting is his old fucking leftovers.
      How the hell do I get past all of this??

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  60. I feel stuck in a state of cognitive dissonance. Like so many, I felt that if my husband cheated, that's it. It's over, no way I can stay with him and be happy again. Yet I know from reading this site that it is possible to rebuild trust and be happy with him again.

    My problem is that the idea that I can't possibly ever be happy with or trust someone who betrayed me ever again is so deep-rooted that it sabotages me. Every time I start to feel happy and safe, a part of me says, "What's wrong with you??? You can't ever be happy with someone who cheated on it!!!" And then I get sad, or I pick a fight with him, or something.

    How do I get past this? It doesn't matter that I now know rationally it isn't true. Emotionally is another matter. I feel like I'm holding two contradictory ideas in my head at the same time, and it's driving me crazy.

    It's going to be 2 years at the end of this month, if the amount of time makes any difference.

    Thanks.

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    1. Gee,
      When we know differently, we do differently, to paraphrase Maya Angelou. I know a woman who has lost two children to suicide. She is lovely and warm and laughs easily. I've so often said to myself that I couldn't possibly go on if I ever lost a child. I just can't imagine that I could get out of bed. And I don't doubt that this woman likely felt the same. Don't we all? And yet...there are people who go on. There are people who never quite recover and there are people who live rich wonderful lives even if they spent those lives wishing their children were still alive.
      My point is that none of us can possibly know how we'll respond to life's slings and arrows until we're in that situation. I think you're holding on to a belief system that no longer serves you rather than allowing for the fact that infidelity has more than one potential outcome -- something you likely didn't know before. I sure as hell didn't. Infidelity was a deal-breaker. Except...it wasn't. Now I know differently, and so I do differently.

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    2. Gee, I hear you! It's like the trusting, happy and safe feeling IS the trigger for all the worst memories and emotions. I feel like a real, nourishing relationship is no longer possible but I know I don't want to go either and I can't reconcile the two ideas.
      Elle, this is an interesting comment about belief systems which no longer serve us. I do think you're right. There are a number of things he did which I find unforgivable because I believe adamantly that you do not and can not do those things to someone you genuinely love. So I feel like I can superficially love him but the real deal is permanently off the table.
      Ultimately, I guess I get to chose whether to keep him or keep the belief system.

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    3. Elle

      I agree with so much of what you say. What helped me when I felt similar to this was I think steam posted about imagine looking at a picture of yourself. When you pull it out of your pocket will it be black and white and you looking distant or will it be in color and you looking lively. I am sure I am not saying at well as it was said before by her or whoever said that. But I was stuck scouring social media for these women and feeling like all our years together were ruined, hating our memories together. Feeling like our marriage was a sham almost getting sick to my stomach when people would gush at me about our marriage and my husband. It was hard to accept how I could let him back into my life and let my guard down. But then I read that and it helped me. I knew I either needed to decide if I was going to leave my husband or give it my full effort and tell him even more what I needed, I had to figure that out first. It helped a lot and I was really honest with him asking why should I want to be with you. And telling him how his reactions pushed me away. What I needed to know still. What helped a lot is I became less emotional at some point and he started to be less defensive. Just the other day he started and then stopped himself and said I am going to stop myself and just listen. We had to strike that balance where we were both working at this and honestly I needed to feel him putting in more work than he was. Once I felt that it changed. I even got to the point where I told him I forgive him which was a big deal. I honestly felt like I might never get to that point. But I knew it was right. After that he has been more open and receptive.

      But that imagery really helped me. I also really focused on the happy things, my kids, fitness, cooking. All thinks I enjoy. And I told him I need you to call me every day at lunch or whatever it was. Over time many things have just become habits for him that he depends on too.

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    4. I think the biggest one for me is, "If you love someone, you don't cheat on them." So I get stuck, thinking, "My husband cheated, therefore, that means he doesn't love me."

      Even though I know a big part of the reason is that he's a porn addict (in recovery now), it still doesn't override my thought of, "If you REALLY loved me, you wouldn't have done that to me." (As he and I have agreed, his addiction may be a reason, but it is NOT an excuse.) I feel like his love for me should have been a trump card. That it should have been the thing to tip the scales over to the, "I will not betray my wife," side of it. Therefore, I end up concluding that he didn't really love me. :(

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    5. Aelia
      I too suffer a few of the I just can't forgive him for parts of the affair but I'm learning how to live with the fact that the man I thought was so strong in times of trouble the same one I thought would never hurt me this way is in reality a very weak and selfish man who at the beginning of the affair felt entitled! I'm learning that the experience he craved because we were married so young and he just always wondered about different sex changed his views on women in general and me in particular! I'm still a work in progress and he's still willing to give me all the time it takes to get totally past the triggers even though now he has accepted that I have no control over the triggers but we both are learning new ways to deal with them when they happen!
      Elle looks like we're all stuck on some things and have reached the almost two hundred post again!

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    6. Hi Aelia,
      This post really resonates with me, because I have been having the same discussion with my IC. I think because my belief is that I could not betray my husband if I really loved him, it's hard for me to believe that he could have done these things to me, and really love me (which he claims he has and always will. ) I am learning that we are two people with different views/feelings. I think I always assumed that we had the same belief system, which apparently we don't. I am a very black and white thinker, and I am trying to open myself up to the fact that there is a lot of grey...
      -Morgan

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    7. Gee, the problem is that your premise is not true. It's simply not true that if you love someone, you won't betray them. People hurt people they love all the time, in ways large and small. So you're operating from something that simply isn't true. Therefore any conclusions you draw from that will likely be wrong too.
      Your husband's betrayal of you wasn't about his love for you. Not at all. It was likely about his ability (or lack of) to love and respect himself. It was about his ability to convince himself that what he was doing was somehow okay. Studies show that way more than half of people asked if they would cheat if their partner wouldn't find out said "yes". Cheating is about excitement and escape and fantasy. It's about the forbidden. It's about feeling young and sexy. Those are intoxicating feelings. But they have nothing to do with a faithful partner and whether or not that person is loved. It seems completely counter-intuitive and you're fighting years of socializing that tells us that when we're loved, we'll be safe. But research simply doesn't back that up.

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    8. Theresa,
      I'll start a new "Feeling Stuck". :)
      We might still be stuck but getting unstuck takes time. Sometimes it's a gradual loosening of ideas and sometimes it's a lightning bolt of recognition. But it happens.

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    9. I know you are all correct. I'm now working on my core belief that I'm not loveable. (Thanks for your legacy, abusive mom!) I realized the other day that this is what it boils down to. "If you really loved me, you wouldn't have cheated. You cheated, therefore you don't really love me. And you don't really love me because I'm not loveable." I've done a lot of work on this, but I recognize I still have more to do.

      He has told me that he felt that his porn addiction was dirty, and keeping that part of his life a secret was protecting me from it. And it escalated until that's when it hit him that he can't compartmentalize that part of his life and pretend it doesn't affect me.

      You are so right about it being a lack of love and respect for himself. That's what he's told me, and that's what my therapist has told me, too. I just need to work on believing and accepting it.

      Thank you so much ladies! This group is my lifeline. I don't know what I would have done without it.

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    10. You ladies are fucking awesome. The lot of you. I cannot imagine how I would ever have dealt with this in any healthy way without the wisdom I've come across on this site.

      I listed out the things for which he could not be forgiven. It turns out there was a short list of specific things. I thought about talking to him about them and then it occurred to me...

      I know he won't remember saying/doing them and/or he won't remember why he chose to do those things any longer. He tells me this all the time when we talk about how things were before versus now. He just isn't in that space any longer, mentally or emotionally, and he thought things were different than they actually were at the time and he was wrong. Yes, the narcissist does say he was wrong sometimes now. lol

      So basically, I'm the only one still hanging on to these particular "unforgivable" offenses. Stupid words and stupid decisions based on stupid ideas that he no longer holds. I'm not ready yet to just say it's all good. But I can see that maybe there might be a way that I can wrap my head and heart around this eventually.

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  61. Gee, Aelia, Elle & All of Us,

    While I will not say I trust my H, I will say that the love I felt for him has never diminished. I have reconciled that he was/is mentally ill, he attracted the COW, and she is certainly mentally ill. If you want to stay, STAY. Give yourself permission. Read lots of books about YOURSELF. Never mind about marriage right now (but do so if you want). I had to feel sane first before I was able to step my feet down, one at a time, through the pain, nightmare, rage, humiliation. And as we all know, LOTS OF S**T!!

    Tomorrow is DDAY, year two. Our marriage is better than it ever was, I am getting back the pieces of me I treasured plus more. I am a firm believer that if SUZANNE can do it, ANY WOMAN can do it. Seriously.

    On another couple of notes, the COW (yes, after a 3 month break, I looked) drove to my town (over an hour from the cow's town) and had to post pictures on F**KBook. The PPO against me (what a joke this is) by her doesn't mention that SHE would be advised to avoid ME. My theory? The COW would like nothing better than to have me violated the PPO or to have a huge row with my H.

    Neither is gonna happen. In fact, I haven't said a word to him nor have I felt much of anything other than "You ugly COW."

    I was going to celebrate my two year with a present to myself.

    Instead, I am forwarding a PayPal donation to this life-saving club.

    Thank you God. Thank you Elle. Thank you members. I wish we didn't know each other but we do and it's all good.

    Suzanne : )

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    1. Suzanne,
      Yay for you!! What an incredibly point you've reached and you owe it to yourself for valuing yourself, respecting yourself and honouring your own wants and needs. What an inspiration you are.
      And thank you for the donation! It's hard to let you all know how much it means to me that you support the work of this site, financially but also with how you pour your hearts and souls into helping each other. When I'm not able to respond right away, I know that someone will step in and offer comfort and wisdom and such deep kindness. So thank-you.
      And a hearty congratulations for getting to D-Day 2 with such integrity and strength.

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    2. Thank you Elle. For all you do. For who you are, for sharing your story. And you are so welcome. This group ROCKS and you are the foundation upon whom we rest.

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    3. You're gonna make me cry...

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  62. I am beginning to accept the fact that my husband was unfaithful to me, that he had sex with another woman, a good friend, many, many times over the course of their 4 year affair. He was physically unfaithful to me. Ok. Yes. It happened. And its over. What is really bringing me pain now is knowing that he loved her, and she loved him. I know it was a fantasy, it was not real love, and that they were in the throes of affair fog, and addiction, denial, etc. But still, the pain I feel when I think of them whispering sweet words of love to each other, wrapped in each other's arms, meaning it with all the smallness of their hearts, declaring on their last day together before she moved with her family across the country that they loved each other deeply, that they would always love each other but that they just couldn’t be together. Like tragic but true lovers in a romantic novel. I have waited for several years since then for my husband's heart to return to me, and it finally has. He has finally come out of his affair fog, and his pride, and is working on some really deep issues he has with intimacy and addiction. Now that we are here in our recovery and healing, I am beginning to doubt that I am strong enough to accept that he loved another woman while married to me. That he traded me in for another. It was not just sex, it was deep emotional attachment. That he utterly and completely abandoned me, even despised me. Very dark days indeed. I know he doesn’t feel that way now, I can tell by his actions, and by the softness in his face and features, and in his demeanor. But still, can someone who felt so deeply for another really ever get rid of those feelings? And can I forget that he/she did? This is really tearing me up inside, I’ve talked with him about it, he is remorseful, reassuring, and compassionate, but I fear it may be too little, too late. I am saddened to know that I toughed it out through all the pain til now, when we are finally able to truly reconcile, and now I have nothing emotionally left to give to the process or to him. I cannot rise about my own pain. They. Loved. Each. Other.

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    1. Anon73,
      I don't think there's an easy answer for what you're experiencing. I don't think it's uncommon to "heal" from the betrayal only to discover that the marriage isn't what you want. Perhaps it's takes the time and strength gained from the healing process to be able to walk out the door. Sometimes, for all our partner's hard work on healing himself, we simply can't get past what they've done.
      And that's okay.
      Whether you choose to excavate a bit more deeply into yourself to determine whether you can put what happened well and truly behind you or whether you choose to move forward without him, you have shored yourself up to face the future head on.
      Are you two in couples counselling? I'm wondering if it might help to look at your relationship as two marriages, your first with him, interrupted by his affair, and now a second one whereby you two come together again on different ground to create something altogether different.
      There was a recent "Dear Sugar" podcast (you can download it for free on iTunes or online) about a wife falling in love with a husband she'd divorced and the discussion was about how to have a second marriage with someone who'd caused great pain. Again, no straightforward answer, but you might find it helpful to listen to and digest.
      Anon73, I can hear your pain so clearly in your letter. Listen to it yourself, talk it over with someone, continue to post here and I think clarity will come.

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  63. Help! It has been almost 90 days since my husband admitted to his brief affair of about 60 days which consisted of 2 unprotected sexual encounters. We are going to counseling and he is working hard at helping with healing our marriage. We are having fantastic sex now and get along when we are with each other, but I wake daily with a guarded attitude and lack of trust although there has yet to be any indication for me to have any since the reveal. I am very impatient with these emotions and feelings and am wondering if anyone has any experience strength or hope to share as to when these emotions/feelings may lessen or go away. They are extremely draining. My fear is that they will never lessen or go away and if that is the case, I don't want to live like this. I have promised myself to give it my all for the supposed average of 2 years to heal after affair. If this does not improve after then, I feel I will have to move on. Any insight is so welcome!

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    1. Amy,
      What you're experiencing is incredibly normal right now. Most of us go through that sense of guardedness and anxiety. And, of course, it makes sense. Your husband has made it clear that he's untrustworthy. Simply telling you that you can trust him now doesn't make sense. He needs to show you, over time, that he's trustworthy.
      And much of the anxiety and lack of trust will dissipate with consistent proof that he won't betray you. You might never trust him blindly again -- you likely won't. He's shown you that he's capable of betrayal (most of us are capable of it but not all, of course, will act on it). He needs to show you now that he's willing to get to the bottom of why he risked his marriage. What was he seeking outside his marriage? How will he handle temptation in the future? By rooting out those answers, he'll have greater insight into what allowed him to cross that line and how to ensure he doesn't cross it again.

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