Share Your Story: Feeling Stuck Part Three (FULL. Please post in Part Four)

We heal by sharing our stories with others who've been there. "Me too," are powerful words.

202 comments:

  1. It's Cin, My husband asked to come home after living with the OW for a month and that whole time he would not tell me where he was. He would just tell me he needs time and didn't want a divorce. I knew in my heart and my intuition told me he was with her. It's crazy though that even knowing that my guy was probably right I gave him his time and space and held onto hope. The day I found out that he was for sure living with the OW I was devastated. For a month I barely had any contact with him and I was still doing the everyday things you do and taking care of our 3 year old daughter while he was playing house with this chic. I told him I could not do this anymore and his time was up because had I known he was playing house with her I would never of waited around. He told me he didn't want a divorce but I told him I could not continue anything as long as he lived with her. I told him if he was serious of working things out I wanted to meet with the both of them to make sure everyone was clear on their roles. Mainly because I feel he's playing us both. I doubt he's telling her he's telling me he wants to work it out. The next day he came to my job and asked to come home. I knew I should of said HELL NO but he told me all I wanted to hear and I said ok. He came home two days later...guess he had to break up with his girlfriend. OMG I can't believe my marriage has turned into this Jerry Springer JOKE! I told him what he had to do and what I would not tolerate and he agreed to therapy, cutting all communication with her, and being honest about all my questions. By day two of him being home I knew he was full of shit. He said it was hard on her...the OW when he left and him...OMFG...I can only imagine...she invested a little over a month and I have 12 years with this man!!!! I was soooo furious with that statement. Well, he started to play his games again and I said we need to divorce. This man is not willing to or wanting to change. I tried everything possible to make it work and just about lost myself in the process. I so badly wanted a happy ending but in a way I think I will be getting one just not with a man that didn't think our family was worth it. He continues to live in our house until we sort everything out which makes it strange but it's a huge relief not worrying about this man anymore. My love has died...I'm sad but I will be ok. The hardest part for me out of all this is the mental abuse of all the lies and betrayal...I feel he broke me and a few days ago I cried for hours in bed like someone had died...since that cry I have not shed a tear. I'm upset at myself that I let him back in and we also had lots of sex...before I figured out he was full of shit and himself...How can someone treat or do this to someone they are suppose to love and protect??? I'll never understand till the day I die. I'm happy for this blog. Reading stories from all of you continue to help me and I feel we can heal together regardless the ending or beginnings of our stories...XOXO

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    1. You're right -- you will have your happy ending, which was impossible if you'd stayed with him. Kudos to you for recognizing when it was time to walk and move forward into the rest of your life.

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    2. I can really identify with your story... it was all about control with my ex too... he's in control of himself and everyone around him at all times... I can't believe I allowed myself to be controlled to that extent for so long... Best thing I can say to you is be happy that you are the one who is in control now and you will shape your own destiny.... stay strong ... x

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    3. Thank you Mirken! It has been awhile since I have been on here. Dealing with the process of a divorce is time consuming. I just can't wait till the dust settles and this is all just a faint memory. Everyday I remind myself I'm a strong person. Being verbally beat down by this man will not kill my spirit.
      Cin

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  2. I am so stuck. It has been nearly 4 months since D-day, I posted on this blog at the 12 week mark. The blog has been so very helpful. My problem is that I cannot seem to move past the thoughts of my husband with the OW who was a close friend of mine. I still have to see her at the kids' school and sporting events etc - it's a real trigger when I do. My husband has done and is doing all the right things but I cant control my thoughts - we cant get thru a day without questioning from me. It's like he is a trigger also. We try and have quality couple time but thoughts just pop into my head - did he say that to her ? How can he mean that after what he has done ? Why did he do it ? I am still so angry at the two of them. Will time really make a difference ??? Will I ever come to accept this has happened let alone forgive and move on ?? It seems so hard - I dont know if the love is still there. I find it so hard to do the everyday things I need to, to pretend to most of the world that things are ok, to pretend to those who know that I am doing ok. I know it is still reasonably early days but does time really help ?? I am struggling with the grey.

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    1. You are doing fine. I understand how you feel with struggling with the grey. I have been there but thankfully the thoughts and mind movies now have breaks in between and are getting a little easier to snap out of. Time really does heal a lot, so please be kind to yourself and know that this is part of the process (in my experience). What helped me, and I am not saying it will work for you, but it may do, was meditation (through yoga). It helped because it was the one time in my day that the voices stopped. There was no room for anything else, and if I'm honest the constant voices were making me exhausted. Meditation gives me a chance to regain control and 'reset' my feelings so that the day doesn't come tumbling down on me. I also have to use mental 'stop signs' when my thoughts start wandering - doesn't always work but at least lets me realise when my thoughts are heading down a dead-end of pain. I also use the stop signs when a trigger comes across my path and try to detach myself and observe the trigger and the emotions - I'm still practising this one though ;-) Please just take each day at a time and know that you are not alone.

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    2. Yoga helped me. Walking helped me. The mental "stop signs" helped me. And, yes, time helped.

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    3. The stop signs didn't help me at all. I am 1 year out. What I found helpful was keeping an email journal of my thoughts. I usually would just email them to myself, esp when they were sarcastic. I found it helpful to write the hurtful thoughts down & them later read them out loud when I was alone as a way of acknowledging them. I would cry if I had to, esp in the beginning. After I read the email several times (on different days, when those same thought returned), if I saw something as a recurring problem that I felt needed clarification from my husband I would bring it up with him. But esp in the beginning when we discussed things I would get upset & he felt like I was attacking him & he'd get defensive.

      I found that for us a much better approach was thru email. I read this in several books as well. I would sort of tone down one of my emails so it wasn't threatening or accusatory, simply describe what I was feeling or imagining about his affairs or motivations. This way he could respond after having considered his answer carefully, not feel under pressure, and not be there to witness if I became upset. I found this way to work well for us & I really feel he was able to answer my questions honestly without fear of hurting me and without being afraid he would be verbally attacked if he didn't answer the way I wanted or expected him to.

      Time was the biggest help. I still think about his affairs daily but I no longer cry about it. Finally u just get sick of it & it doesn't overwhelm u anymore. U become desensitized.

      Sam

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    4. Sam,
      That's a brilliant idea. I know that when my husband have discussed painful things via e-mail, it generally works out that each of us is far better able to really hear each other. In fact, a friend of mine has discovered it also works really well with talking to teenagers. No eye-rolling, or sighs, to get in the way.

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    5. Anonymous-
      You are about 1 month behind me. It DOES get better, but I'm in a stuck period right now as well. It's not as bad as a month ago, though. I'm better able to understand that this stuck period will pass. For me, a major help has been my husband's willingness to be open with me (although there was 3 months of periodic lying before the major part of the truth came out- and that's why you keep questioning him...something is not ringing true for you). My husband also has done and said all the right things- he's been helpful to no end, and without his honesty and thoughtfulness, I would not be where I am today. Just wouldn't. At the same time, I've had to drag everything out of him- he has never volunteered to talk about his 7 year emotional affair. And that ticks me off. And that's why I still get into these moods. When will HE be able to talk about it? Why do I have to be the one peeling the onion?
      I also still can't control my thoughts and things pop into my head while walking the dog or in the middle of the night or while I'm fixing supper, etc., unannounced and frankly, pretty unwelcome- but not as often as they did before. Triggers are very common right now, and yes, he may be a trigger. I sometimes find myself watching my husband work and I think about how he plotted out his little shopping trips and gift-giving trips. When he smiles at me, I wonder if that's how he smiled at her. I silently thank him for all the new gray hair and for the antidepressant. I'm not 100% and don't expect to be.
      We're all in the same boat- I think it's normal, and being on this site has helped me realize that I'm really ok- that what I'm thinking and feeling at any time is what everyone else who's ever been in our position has thought or felt. We're all ok- we are coping the best way we know how. We have to give ourselves a collective break and know that we WILL get better. We will.
      If you have not read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, read it. It has become my go-to reference when I hit a wall. I reread a chapter or a few pages that deals with my current feelings and it really helps. I can now say, I'm beyond that point...here's where we need to work. I can see the progress I've made now when I read. It makes me feel good. I ask my husband to read some of it as well, and we talk about it. That has helped him understand why I keep recycling questions, why it's important for both of us to talk about the story of the affair. It's a great book.
      I also write, as Sam suggests. I used to write and destroy, but now I keep everything I write and when I'm not in a recycling mood, I reread entries and I can see progress there, too.
      One other thing I've become aware of... I thought I was finished with hormonal cycles. Haven't noticed mood swings in a very long time- not until after April. Now all of a sudden, I get in a funk, I'm angry/sad/bewildered again, and foggy. I've finally figured out that my remaining hormones are exacerbating the stuck periods or the recycling. Thought I was finally free of hormonal interference, but apparently not. ;)
      Hang in there. It gets better, it really does- I'm not promising perfection, though. You'll continue to have stuck periods and recycling sessions, and so will I, but it will get better. Takes time, takes work, but you will begin to see progress.
      C.

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  3. I have been struggling for the last few weeks. This week in particular. It is around the time of the big d-day anniversary. I don't know if this has anything to do with it. But my H and I have been struggling with the same issues. He is working on fixing himself, being better in the marraige--things that would have been great prior to the A. We probably wouldn't have had the marital issues that drove us apart if he had become this new person. But he can't address the A in a way that I need him to. He tells me I am blaming, when I talk about how hurt I am and what I need him to do to restore trust and willingness to move on in the marraige.
    I had been very, very hopeful about our progress. He has literally become a new person in many ways. But it is the same issue with the A. He can't deal with what I want and express about it. He doesnt want to help me process it. He just wants to forget about it. He has been very insensitive about how emotionally drained and traumatized I am. He tried for awhile, but has been impatient with me when I circle back to the unresolved issues.
    It hurts. I keep trying to share how deep my hurt is and he throws it back in my face with counter acccusations of how I am making things worse and not appreciating the good that he does.
    But frankly, he has botched everything the affair books recommend the CS does to help their BS heal from the affair. From NC to giving your spouse room to grieve and bearing witness to their pain.
    I don't know what to do. I keep being retraumatized by all this rejection. I told him I want space. I want him to find somewhere else to go for awhile. It hurts to not have him want to partner with me in the way that I want. He wants to run the show and go at his own, very dawdling pace. I can't live like this.
    Elle, what do you say?
    I am worrying that i am making things worse with expectations. I probably am, but frankly he has done little to help me with closure on the affair. Tons on dealing with our previous marital issues, but the affair still burns. It is such a strange situation, he seems to be doing what we need to do in reverse. But his resistance to owning and healing the A is steadfast.
    Is this normal, or is this a sign that he just can't do what it takes?
    -MBS

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    1. MBS,
      You're not making things worse with expectations. He is not able to show up and support you in your pain. He's still making this about him and his discomfort and guilt, not about you and your pain. That's NOT okay, nor does it bode well for rebuilding a marriage. The only way to move forward is for him to absolutely take FULL responsibility for his choice to cheat. He needs to recognize that it takes a very long time to heal from betrayal but that it goes a lot more quickly with a supportive partner who is willing to say "I'm so sorry..." as many times as the betrayed spouse needs to hear it.
      While it's great that he's willing to work on the marriage, the more he resists taking responsibility for the affair itself, the more IT becomes the elephant in the room.
      Are you two in counselling? I'd be surprised if a counsellor allowed him to avoid taking responsibility.
      In other words, your expectations aren't the problem. He is. I think you need to get clear on your own boundaries (i.e. what you will and will not tolerate from him) and then let him know. His anger, his passive-aggressive accusations, his refusal to own up to the damage he's create. All NOT okay. It either stops and he seeks help, or you determine what that means: sleeping on the couch, separation, divorce, whatever you decide you need to stick to.

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    2. MBS - reading your post feels as if you were reading my mind...I feel that you are telling my story. Looks like our husband are really very similar, or they act the same way. I also feel that he shuts down when I really need to talk about the A. We both know now what happened, I want him to want to listed to what I have to say and how hurt I feel but he does not want to open up and keeps saying - let's move on...I asked for few things, and he could not do it..as if he feels that he knows better what I need.

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    3. I'm reading a new book now that might shed some light on why men shut down. If anyone is interested it's "The Woman's Guide To How Men Think." I've found it helps to explain why men do certain things that irritate us, like shut down. The author (Shawn T. Smith) is a psychologist in Denver- I'd go to him if I lived in Denver, btw- and he has a good sense of humor. The book is based on a Facebook survey he conducted. I think it hits close to home. Doesn't excuse the poor choices our husbands have made, but helps us to have some insight into the male mind. It's helped me a bit.
      C.

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    4. I encouraged my husband to read "how to help your spouse heal from your affair" by Linda J. Macdonald. It's perfect for men, only 97pages, concise and easy to read. He has underlined several parts that hit home for him and I have pointed out parts that I think he needs to think about. He refers back to it often and I believe it has helped him to better understand my need to talk about the affair etc. it has helped us both to understand what we each are going through. I am only 7 mths into this journey of betrayal/reconcilliation, and am by no means healed. But I do know that every so often things seem a little better than they have been before, so long as we both work our asses off and each give all we can at the time to try to make this work.

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  4. I am a few days of the second anniversary of DDay 1, DDay 2 was last November when he confessed to an earlier affair and 18 years of contact with the same ex girlfriend during our 34 year marriage. DDay 1 is 9/11 which is a hard date to ignore. He knows I am not good at the moment but is trying to pretend he hasn't noticed. We are working on things and I 99% believe he is sincere but the 'trickle truth' of over a year after the first affair discovery makes that doubt a 'mind worm'. The OW did contact him at this time last year as she visits relatives in town around now and he did tell me and show me her texts. I am very tense and alert to potential attempts again. Not sure what to do if she tries but I know I will have to take steps of some sort. Just wanting to post to ease the pain a little with people who understand. Thank you

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    1. It's worth having a plan with your husband about what to do if she contacts him. Ideally he reiterates that he wants no contact with her at all and copies you on the correspondence. Or allows you to respond with a curt, "please don't contact my husband again". But having a plan will make both of you feel like more of a team...and reduce some of the tension.

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  5. My nightmare started a few years ago but only came to a head 3 months ago when my husband and I decided to separate. We had been married almost 23 years, and I would say for the most part it was a good marriage...lacking intimacy but generally positive, centered around the lives of our four children. A few years back I found out in a most embarrassing way that my husband had been looking up strip clubs, prostitutes and using porn daily. When I confronted him he said he was only fantasizing and we both agreed we would try to work on our intimacy. This lasted a few months until he found he could not hold an erection and therefore gave up being intimate. We still had a positive relationship - at least that is what I thought.This summer my husband got a new job about 1.5 hrs away by train. The intent was that he would travel back and forth, work from home,etc. Within two weeks time he was staying all week When I confronted him he said we needed to separate so we (HE) could figure out what we wanted from life. He said he wasn't sure he loved me and wasn't sure if he ever had.Within a week he had started a "friendship" with a young girl in her early 20s (he's 56). He met her at the strip club he frequented 3-4 times a week. I found out after finding a receipt for use of his credit card at a hotel where he apparently put her up.Since then he has spent excessive time and money on this "friend". I started to feel like my life was spiraling out of control so I started to investigate. I found my husband spent thousands of dollars, 3-4 nights a week at the strip club and was using internet porn 2-3 times a day to masturbate. I confronted him, and of course he was mad at my "spying on him". He said that we had a horrible relationship and that I was extremely controlling. He continued to deny he was having sex (although I found a Viagara prescription) and that I was crazy. His behaviors got worse and out of control. The lying skyrocketed We started an initial mediation for divorce and at that time he asked if we could go to marriage therapy 2-3 times before proceeding any further. It wasn't that he was sorry, he said, but rather that we should try to "be friends" for the sake of our kids.The day of our appointment I decided to check in just in case there was anything I needed to know. What I found was debilitating. He had joined 7-8 cheating websites...online video webcams, and two "arrangement finder" sites. He has met with women who want to cheat on their husbands, and started a relationship with a young woman he wanted to have an arrangement type relationship with. At the session I told him everything I'd seen, again he denied that he was having sex or having an affair The counselor listened and asked him if he would consider going to be evaluated for sexual addiction. He came back two weeks later and said he really didn't think he had a problem....He said he wanted to discuss it with his therapist who he'd seen for years but admitted he hadn't told him anything about his recent behavior. The therapist asked him to get evaluated, then tried to explain to him that we couldn't progress to the faults in our marriage until we worked through his current behavior and what he was currently doing to sabotage our relationship. His response was " Selfishly, can you tell me how long that part of it is going to take?"
    I'm at a loss. I realize my husband is a sex addict or at least has an addictive personality that has progressed into a full blown sex addiction I feel stupid that I hadn't seen this earlier It's hard to try to pick up the pieces and try to heal myself, while also keeping my kids lives in check, running a household, paying bills - doing everything on my own. I'm just trying to figure out how to put an upbeat smile on my face for the 15 minutes in the car as l drive the girls to school each day..

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    1. I'm so so sorry for what you're going through.
      Your husband is so deep into his addiction that his head is firmly up his ass. You can't save him, only he can do that. And he has to want to do that and right now he's making it abundantly clear that his loyalty is to his addiction NOT to his family.
      I know how hard this is. But you need to take steps to protect yourself and your family. You need to meet with a lawyer, your financial person and ensure that he can't siphon off all the money to strippers.
      You don't have to pretend with your children (not sure of their ages) though you certainly want to protect them from the details of what "daddy" is doing. Explain that you're going through a difficult time and that their mom and dad need some time apart. Explain that you're very sad but that you're taking care of yourself and that you'll always be able to take care of them. Kids are incredibly intuitive. They know something's up. So validate their feelings but assure them that they are safe and cared for.
      You might also want to find a 12-step group for wives of sex addicts (or Al-Anon) or a counsellor who can assure you that you are not stupid for not seeing the signs. So many of us had no idea what our husbands were up to. We're loyal. We're trusting. And frankly, we're often busy running the home while our husbands are, well, not.
      Hang in there. You will get through this. But start by making sure the practical stuff is taken care of. Emotional stuff takes more time.

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    2. Thanks for your support :) His behavior seems to get worse even though he knows I can see what he's doing via the computer...in fact last week he was at the house and actually left his email up on the screen where my daughters could see it! This week he sunk so low to google teen porn and map quest directions to a girl that was offering "favors" through her online acct at a university nearby. I have a daughter turning sixteen - only a few short years away from college age. While my husband has always been a great dad in the past, I have to be concerned if there's even a 1% chance my girls may see or hear or experience something that would scar them for life, right? I don't want to seem crazy and I honestly think he wouldn't ever hurt them but it's like he isn't even himself anymore. What if some jealous husband shows up at the house with a baseball bat? What if he is entrusted with them and decides to leave them in the middle of the night for an encounter? One thing I've learned is sex addicts live for the thrill. My husband has had his own apartment in a different city for the past few months. He could go out on a normal date but he still trolls cheating websites for women who want to have sex while their husbands are out of town. Anyway, I appreciate your reminding me to get my ducks in a row. You've had the same advice as my therapist I've been seeing and it helps solidify that I need to move in the directing of protecting myself and my kids financially and otherwise. I will definitely look into a group for spouses whether or not my husband gets help.

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    3. Absolutely get your ducks in a row. But I want to caution you about "catastrophizing". Yes, it's possible that some jealous husband shows up with a baseball bat...but highly unlikely. It's possible your girls stumble on something but probably won't "scar them for life".
      Try and stay clear-eyed about this. There's plenty to be concerned about that's actually happening right now without inventing potential disaster scenarios.
      You can get through this. Empower yourself with information, draw very clear boundaries around what you will and will not tolerate from him, and move forward.

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    4. Thanks for your support. I was "catastrophizing" last week and I find by taking a few days to calm down I can think more rationally. FYI - husband cancelled our counseling session last week due to a migraine and never bothered to call the kids or come visit on a different day. I think he knows he crossed a line somehow and he's backed off on seeing the girls until he can get help. At, least that is what my hope is. We have scheduled a mediation session to talk about "co-parenting" but I plan to bring up my concerns at our rescheduled counseling session beforehand. I feel it is time to say something before we set up scheduled visits or start to discuss custody plans. He really needs to get the appropriate help and soon. I have also set up a meeting with a lawyer thru a women's resource center...just to ask more questions about what my rights are, etc.. I appreciate your help and the help you give so many others..!

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  6. Hi I have been doing well recently but the previous post has sparked my curiosity somewhat.

    I had 4 ddays before finally finding out my H had, had an affair, the previous d days were finding out about sexting with fb members, online porn and online cheaters websites, all this seemed to fade into insignificance when I found out about the affair, however when I found out about his sexting, he said everything stopped immediately the texts, online porn, the affair had eased off due to the OW ill health, however my H says he was happy with that as he did not want to continue but felt trapped just in case she decided to tell me what had been going on.

    My questions is he has done everything I have asked transparency, passwords etc, but I am now curious if he was watching so much porn, talking on cheating websites ( he says that this was for sex talk but who knows) can he just put a stop to it like that, he sounds addicted, how can he just stop, he says my finding out made him realise what he had to lose, so is this possible or am I just believing what I want to hear, and will he just convert back to all of this when things get a little lack lustre again.

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    1. Whether it's an addiction is really for an expert to determine. In some cases, it's clear (the person is at risk for losing so much but continues anyway). In my husband's case, he had become so disgusted with himself that, in many ways, he was almost glad to be caught and given no choice but to either stop or lose his family. They get swept up in this habit that gives them some measure of relief from their uncomfortable feelings and the further into they get, the harder it is to stop.
      In your husband's case, he might need to be very vigilant about his own feelings and have a plan in case he feels tempted again. It's somewhat "easy" to be determined to stop at first (think of the first week of dieting, as opposed to three weeks into it). The challenge is to keep it up even when those first horrible moments of being found out are fading.
      A therapist can certainly help each of you understand the dynamic that's driving his behaviour.

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    2. Hi. I wrote that previous post. My husband had an episode like yours about two years back. That is how I found out that he was looking at porn daily (1-3 times/day) and googling things like "escorts and Washington DC" or "best strip clubs in Austin TX". When I confronted him he admitted to the strip clubs and said he was fantasizing about the rest. I think he really did stop but I realize now that it may have been because he had lost his job where he traveled...and the ability to have extra cash. My husband 's recent craziness started when he turned 55 and decided to cash in his pension - plus he got a new job that was 1.5 hrs way and he had new found freedom. I would never say that this is something your husband would do as its up to two people to mend a relationship. But I will say that its important to find out if your husband chronically masturbates (every day) or still needs to look at porn daily. I have two boys that are 19 and 21. My husband admitted when he found my son trolling on Redtube in high school (a normal thing for a boy to check out) he was intrigued and couldn't stop. The boys are in college and therefore there are college aged girls swimming in my pool, etc... I also have two girls aged 13 and 15. When my boys left for college my husband was left to navigate two girls with breasts, hanging bras and underwear on their shower curtain, having sleepovers with friends, etc.. While a Dad has to learn to handle this, be it uncomfortable...it shouldn't make him want to retreat to his room to look at porn...That is sexual addiction...

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    3. Hi, thanks for the response.

      My husband volunteered the addiction to porn after I found out about the sexting and cheating websites, I had no idea he was looking on a daily basis, he freely admits now that he believes viewing this started the progression as dating sites came up alongside the porn offering chats etc.

      Months later he then admitted to an affair, after I kept pushing as I knew he was still hiding something, since then he has not touched the laptop, his phone is available for me at anytime, and he is not aware I have a spyware that shows me any deleted text pictures and websites viewed, I have not checked this for some time now, but did early on quite a few times, I do believe he has refrained from any of this type of activity.

      My fear is years down the line, I did not have a clue any of this was going on, and I have been able to read him like a book, he hid his deceit so well, although he says he did not feel he was hiding it well at the time, I was just too busy with my grandchildren to notice, we both admit we had been spending too much time apart without realising it (although he had but never mentioned it) he says although I discovered trickle truth it was though fear of losing me, each time he thought his admittance of deceit would be the final straw, but he did however feel relieved as he did not think he would be able to stop the affair for fear of me being told by the AP.

      I believe he wants to put our marriage right, I believe he his truly sorry for his actions, I just fear years down the line he can be lulled back into the same temptations, he pleads to me this will not happen, he cannot believe what he risked and he will never risk me again, he cries openly for the hurt he has caused me and says he cannot forgive himself for the pain he has caused me so cannot even begin to understand how I can try to forgive him although he his truly thankful I have given US another chance, and at the time I believe him, but then the whispers inside my head remind me I never thought he would do this to me ever, so how can I believe his words now...... Do these voices in my head ever stop?

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    4. Those whispers are a post-trauma response reminding you that you are never, ever safe. That, however, is patently untrue. You are capable of keeping yourself safe no matter what your husband ultimately does or does not do. Of course, there are no guarantees that your husband will "never" do that again. There are no guarantees that someone who hasn't cheated will "never" do it in the future. If you choose to stay with your husband, then all you (or any of us) can ever do is move forward rebuilding a stronger, more open marriage. At a certain point (and it sounds as if you're there since you're not checking the spyware any more), we begin to trust again. His recovery is his responsibility. If he's learning true recovery principles, he'll be learning accountability, strategies in case he's tempted again, and be reminded routinely of the cost of betraying you again.
      I can't stress enough just what a long road this is. And you might have periods when you need more reassurance than usual -- something might not feel "right" or someone might seem like a threat. But that's where better communication, strategies to stay connected, etc. can keep you both strong.
      So, yes, the voices stop, though occasionally speak up again.
      They key is understanding when to listen to them and when they're simply the whispers of post-trauma.

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    5. Hi...I'm from the previous post again...just FYI - my husband has not admitted to anything and still lies to me even though he knows I've seen and can see his emails and google history. I think that is quite different than what you are experiencing. You have a husband that is openly sorry for his actions. He is being transparent in the relationship to make you feel comfortable and that is what I've been told by therapists is the correct thing to do. I couldn't get the voices out of my head the first time but I didn't do anything about it - no therapy, etc so there is where my fault lies in this equation. Keep going to therapy - together and alone. Let him know your fears and talk about it in a rational manner. There may come a day where he feels he's "done enough" to prove his commitment to the relationship and doesn't want to hash it out anymore but thats in the future and that's what you have your own private therapy for. I didn't open up the lines of communication (and my husband didn't either) and thats why we are where we are today. Good luck

      Delete
    6. Hi ,me again... Thank you both for your replies.

      Even I recognise that things are better between us, I don't feel the need to check his phone all the time now, if he is gonna be late back from work he calls me, we also have a GPS on our phones so I can check that he is where he says he is, or even check where he is at any given time if I feel I need too, but I don't check this now ( or rarely) I do have times where I look at him and I do not like him but this tends to be when the voices are in my head reminding me of what he has done, I question whether this is me rethinking my options and wandering whether I would be better off calling it a day, but this quickly fades, I want hom with me I truly do, I just cannot accept the hurt he has caused me sometimes...

      Tomorrow we head off on a 2 week cruise, I want so much for it to be better than our last holiday which was only 3 months after discovery of his affair, ( pre booked) this holiday was booked a few months ago, he was so pleased as he saw the fact I was booking a holiday as further confirmation that I wanted US, he is so afraid at some point I will decide to leave him, and I cannot bear to tell him those thoughts have crossed my mind, although they are not what I want, funny isn't it, I do not want to hurt him with this honesty, yet he has hurt me so much, I just tell him I cannot guarantee I wont change my mind down the line, but that option has been there since we made our vows, as was his choice to cheat rather than remain true..... we are working at our marriage and I think we will get through this however I must say we have not had counselling, none of us, am I doing ok are we on the right tracks working through this as a couple, or should we choose counselling to help,

      Delete
  7. I posted on learning to understand my H's addiction/addictive personality. I am just slowly accepting that he is an addict. (Which likely means I am codependent). Just now facing up to what that means. Just realizing that I need alot of help to understand and get support. I know he is finally coming to terms with it himself. I am recalling what my sister, a social worker, said to me when I started talking about him as an addict, "an addict will bring you down." I think that is a hard fact to face. Addictions are very difficult to deal with. Being with one is not for the faint of heart.
    -MBS

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    1. MBS,
      That's very true. However the flip side of that is a recovered addict is often a wonderful person to be with. In my experience, those who've truly recovered have a life philosophy that makes a lot of room for joy and appreciating the small things and savouring life.
      They're often more in touch with their own emotions because part of their recovery is about monitoring that.
      However, you're right in that being with an addict who is just beginning on his recovery journey, or who is resistant to recovery, is not the faint of heart. And frankly, an addict unwilling to seek help is a recipe for pain.

      Delete
  8. Six months ago I discovered a text on my husband’s phone from a prostitute. He had several Internet pages up still on his phone so it was easy to connect the dots. When confronted, he vomited his filthy story all over me: years of strippers, porn, pervert massages and prostitutes. As I regained strength, I asked more questions which led to a traumatic trickle of information.

    We both started therapy together and apart immediately. Four months later I finally said, “Um. Perhaps the guy is a sex addict and should receive counseling for that?!” We found a SA therapist and have seen him together for about 14 hours of counseling. I demanded full disclosure so husband took a polygraph and we did disclosure with therapist a week ago. He passed the poly in terms of being sexually sober for 6 months but we learned that he continues to lie about his past behavior. This caused sort of a breakdown for Husband as it seemed to be the first time that he realized that he can’t seem to stop lying about the past. We signed him up for 35-day rehab the next day.

    He has been gone for 6 days and I am struggling some. I have many kids at home that need the 'strong momma' that I usually am for them. I can pull it off about 90% of the time. I went on the Internet for support and found a site that completely bashes the rehab we sent him to and basically says there is no hope for recovery.
    I have always found so much comfort and hope from your site. I want so much to believe that there is hope. I am feeling naive and terrified.

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    1. Constantly being "strong momma" takes its toll. Please know that your children seeing you vulnerable (but not falling apart) gives them permission to be vulnerable too. To know that being vulnerable and scared is part of life but that we can trust ourselves and others to help us through.
      Rehab is only as good as the addict using it. It's not going to cure your husband but it might give him a good start. It might help him make the connection between his lying and his reasons for doing so, which I'm guessing reach far back into his past.
      Addicts are wily people, which is why, I hope, you're also still in therapy yourself. You need to get really clear on your own boundaries, your own self-care, in order to heal yourself. You need to know, absolutely know, that you'll be okay if he doesn't remain sober. His sobriety can't become your responsibility or your focus (I know, I know...pretty hard in the early days).
      Anyone who says sex addicts have no hope for recovery is a bitter fool probably speaking from their own sad experience. It's hard, for sure. Same for any addiction. But there are many, many success stories. My husband has not acted out since he first disclosed his SA to me. My mother was sober from alcohol and pills for more than 25 years when she died a few years ago. Sobriety is absolutely possible.
      But while he's focussing on learning how to stay sober, I want you to focus on taking care of yourself. Stay off those sites. Surround yourself not with Pollyannas but with people who can light the way forward. And enjoy your beautiful family, even if sometimes you have to let them know you're sad and scared.

      Delete
    2. Thats wonderful advice from Elle. Lying is a huge problem with my husband who has not readily admitted his sexual addiction. I found out recently he can lie about the simplest things that there is no need to lie about. It's a condition that needs to be undone and it really takes time and effort. A therapist friend told me this story about her own husband and lying....one night her husband was supposed to stop and get her diet coke at the convenience store on the way home from work. When he got home she asked him where it was and he said "sorry, they were out"....now, knowing the convenience store never "runs out" of soda", she waited...he came back in a few minutes later and said he was sorry, he lied. He just forgot. It takes practice to teach someone who is conditioned to years of lying to "unlearn" the behavior. It's something you both can work on together when he returns home. Don't worry about the "what ifs" right now. Focus on your own self care and see how you can help him by learning some techniques brought forth by his therapists

      Delete
    3. My husband also lied easily and often about why he was late coming home, etc. And it wasn't as if he'd done anything "wrong" -- he'd left work later than he expected, or he'd become distracted by work, or he'd had a longer than expected conversation on his way out the door. And yet, years of getting in trouble from his parents for even the smallest transgression made him quick to lie so that nothing was ever his "fault", it was always circumstance.
      I call him on things now with a raised eyebrow or a gentle "really?". As a result, he either comes clean or confirms that it really was a long train that made him late, for instance. Better, though, is that he catches himself doing it and it happens far less often.
      It's also made me aware of any time I "white lie". I made a commitment to myself to be as honest as I can and it's changed how I interact with my kids (we're no longer "broke" when the kids want pizza, I simply tell them "not tonight"; or I tell friends that I won't be attending a certain event rather than making up an excuse). It's uncomfortable sometimes but I'd rather be uncomfortable than dishonest. My integrity matters more.

      Delete
  9. I am so confused 10 mos. past DDay and wonder from others who read these if it's normal to feel such confusion from day to day. It's as if for the past 10 mos. I've been trying on all different kinds of outfits, trying to find the one that feels best, and sometimes they are sooo different! Like one week, it's a rage fest, the next week, it's endless sex, then a week of ambivalence.....crazy making! I can only imagine how confusing it is to WH because it is to me.
    I am also really struggling with WH's masterful ability to lie and Bsh*t his way thru marriage counseling...today I had it and got up to leave, saying I've had enough of it and am done till he wants to get honest. Then I broke down.
    To those further along the path, does this sound normal???
    I remember in the early days after discovery, I cried, but mostly was trying to "perfect" myself as in lose weight, grow hair, buy lingerie, please him more, etc.
    Thank you for helping...
    J

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    1. The confusion is normal, at least it has been for me. I have the same weeks of anger, then sadness, then helplessness, then feelings of worthlessness. I wonder if it's like the stages of grief when someone dies? It's like losing a loved one...but they are still there and present somehow in your life. One piece of advice from someone thats done the same thing trying to "please" with sexy lingerie, losing weight, etc is that that stuff doesn't last and is not the end all be all for the marriage to work. You know that deep down inside. You are right to walk out of counseling! If his head isn't in it then he's just not ready. Maybe he needs to hit rock bottom! But, maybe you're afraid of that and what happens when he does... Take care of yourself first. I know that's hard right now as your head is full of his sh**. Meditation has been helping me at 4am when I can't sleep and start obsessing. It takes a little work to focus at the beginning but it eventually leaves you peaceful and ready to take on what's up next. You should give it a try!

      Delete
    2. J,
      Anonymous is right in that it's a lot like stages of grief. And it's not a linear process. You'll cycle round and round the same stuff but trust that it's part of the process that is actually bringing you closer to healing.
      "Normal" won't look like anything you've experienced before. Just keep the focus on your own healing. Keep your boundaries clear. And take care of yourself through this.

      Delete
  10. http://affaircare.com/articles/understanding-your-loyal-spouse/

    this link if you can open it, is amazing. it made me feel 'normal'

    having a bad time. just lost what I typed, but just as well, cos I was just ranting!

    1 thing thou, has anyone had their H take a polygraph test? what happened? did it kill things or make them better? I need to know whether they had sex or not. can not go for the rest of my life thinking, did he/didn't he

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    1. Wow Jane. That's a great link. I'm going to share it on the main blog.
      As for the polygraph, I know a few people lately have mentioned that they did undertake a polygraph...or their husband had agreed to it. But I don't recall reading whether it made things better or worse.
      Perhaps some will weigh in.

      Delete
  11. I am now 13 months past d day # 1, 4 months past d day # 2. I know most of the details, the why, I have read sooo many books on infidelity, restoring trust, forgiveness, including Nancy Glass, Haltzman, Private Lies, Peggy Vaughn, Kirschenbaum, and so many more books and articles that I can't list them all. I am finishing the last pages of my last book thinking I can't imagine reading one more thing. I have highlighted, crimped pages, reread pertinent excerpts.

    Today my depression has really set in. I feel like this is it. Time to accept and move on. There is nothing left to uncover, discover, or learn. I have read all there is.

    My husband has been really great. We even make jokes about his infidelity, about the other women, about what I call his "extracurricular activities", about my "detective work", etc. Humor is very important to both of us and a big aspect of both of our personalities as well as our children.

    So why am I so down?

    Sam

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    1. Sam,
      You're down because you're coming face to face with grief. I'm a lot like you in that I use knowledge as armour. As long as I'm learning about whatever problem I'm facing, I figure I'll come up with a solution that will magically solve it. Infidelity doesn't work that way. The only way toward healing is to let yourself grieve. You've lost the marriage you thought you had, he isn't the partner you thought he was. Your future likely doesn't look as you dreamed it would.
      Even if that's a good thing (for instance, my husband is a better partner now than before), it's nonetheless traumatic to go through betrayal. It shatters our sense of safety in the world; it shatters our trust in ourselves to "know".
      The joking can absolutely help. But sometimes crying helps too. Sometimes just feeling like shit is what's on the menu today and the only way to get out of it is through it. Trust that it won't last forever. Trust that it doesn't necessarily indicate that you made the wrong choice to stay, or that you're not healing or whatever. It's your body/mind/heart responding to one helluva crappy ride.

      Delete
    2. Elle, that says exactly how I feel. I just needed some comfort today and this has helped

      Delete
  12. It has been one year, 4 months and 10 days since I learned of my husband's affair. I am a metastatic breast cancer patient and have been living stable under treatment for three years. On mother's day 2013, the man who I believed was a rock I could moor to told me he was in love with someone else. I found out he had cheated on me with a "younger, thinner, healthy" French woman he met in class while retraining so he could become the breadwinner and finally look after me and our two young kids. He had been imagining a new life with her - new marriage, new kids - a reboot. While the affair was happening he said such horrifying things to me: that he would be fine when I die, that he didn't think he could stand by me if (when) I have a recurrence. He did however, stop seeing her and cut all ties. She has moved away to another city with her husband and daughter. I know the affair is over, but I am very much still stuck in that trauma.

    Since the affair I have sunk into a deep depression. I spend weeks where I am simply going through motions - forcing myself to get out of bed, go to work, smile at my children. I am seeing three therapists - a psychotherapist for talk therapy, and emotionally focused couples' therapist and a psycho-oncologist who has me on antidepressants. Although I no longer spend hours curled in a ball on the floor or spend hours and hours talking with my husband about the betrayal, I feel paralyzed and distant from him most of the time. I feel trapped in every way - I no longer trust the person I thought I could lean on for anything, even though I still love the good in him. I think he is weak, narcissistic and sometimes cruel. And I think he is smart and kind and funny and talented and wonderful. I am a child of an amicable divorce and believe firmly that ALL divorce is bad for children, unless abuse is involved. My children have been through so much with my cancer. They know their mom is sick and will not live as long as most kids' moms. I know they are terrified that they might lose their dad and I don't think I can subject them to that. I am terrified of the financial hardship of divorce. My illness also causes fatigue, and I am afraid of being a single parent. Despite how raw the injury still feels, I believe that being apart from my husband won't make what happened any better than staying with him will. I see he is working hard to repair the damage he has wrought. I just can't forgive him yet. I would love to hear from others who are further down the road and find out about turning points that made a clear difference. Thank you!

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    1. I want to put my hands around your husband's neck and squeeze until his eyeballs pop out. What a colossal asshole!! Sadly, there are many out there so consumed with their own confusion/despair/idiocy that they not only betray the people who love them but betray them when they need nothing more than love and support and strength. There should be a special hell for those whose betray anyone going through cancer or the death of a child or any of life's other painful passages.
      Sorry...needed to say that. Which likely isn't helpful to you.
      So let me say just how sorry I am that you're going through absolute hell on many fronts. You sound like such a smart woman and fabulous mother that I hope the world gets to benefit from your talents for many, many years to come. And I sincerely hope that your husband can recognize just how incredible you are before he completely ruins his own life.
      So...I absolutely understand wanting to keep your kids' lives as stable as possible. So it sounds as if you've chosen, at least for now, to stay in your marriage.
      Has any of your counsellors talked with you about post-trauma? You've had two life-shattering events so it would be no surprise to you that your world would feel completely unsafe. Do you have anyone you can lean on? A parent? Friend? Sibling? Support group? I'm amazed (in a bad way) just how often I hear about betrayal taking place when a woman is dealing with illness, or a sick parent, or a disabled child, or job loss. An affair is, of course, a parallel reality. An escape. Men who are particularly ill-equipped to handle those stressors are that much more susceptible to "escape". It's affair as avoidance.
      You say that your husband is "working hard". How exactly? His ability to support you now, to really recognize just how damaging his words/actions have been might be the only bridge possible back to at least a partnership with him. You may never be able to "forgive" him. What he said to you is, frankly, unforgivable.
      But what you might be able to do with time is allow him to be a better him. To shed that old self as someone even he is ashamed of and prove to you that he deserves the chance to be a better self.
      I'll be curious what others might say but my only real "turning point" was the day I acknowledged that, had I grown up in the same family, I might have made similar choices as my husband. I finally got to a place where I realized he wasn't a monster but someone whose toolbox for handling life was missing a lot...and what it contained was pretty useless.
      I don't know your husband's story. Perhaps he is just a garden-variety narcissist, though I hope, for your kids' sake, he's not. I hope he's someone who, when faced with your cancer, was so consumed with his own pain that he sought the easiest escape route he could find and convinced himself it was a good one. I hope he's clear that he was not only wrong but horribly wrong and that he betrayed you, his children and himself in that choice.

      Delete
    2. OMG ur story is heart wrenching. You sound like a wonderful compassionate & loving person. You have so much to be angry & bitter about & yet u r putting ur children first. There is really no advice any of us who do not have metastatic cancer can give u. We cannot even pretend to imagine what u r feeling.

      I agree with Elle in that although u r the one facing death, ur husband may have been completely unable to cope with possibly losing u so his affair served as his escape from the real world of uncertainty, illness, & ultimately death.

      That is his problem. Urs is to enjoy ur life to the fullest & make every day count. Notice all the little beautiful things around u. Spend every second u have with ur children, not curled up in a ball crying over someone who acted like a child wanting to live in a fantasy. (I have also told my husband he acted like a coward).

      U want ur children to remember who YOU ARE, not see the temporary effects of someone else's actions that were beyond ur control.

      When I was younger I used to watch a show that opened with
      "Life is a gift". None of us knows how long or little we have. Make the most of every moment.

      I myself am a physician. I will never forget the mother of a 43 year old man whom I had biopsied with metastatic pancreatic cancer who told me to go home & kiss my children for her. In those shitty moments of despair & depression do that for urself & them.

      Love & good luck to you.

      Sam

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    3. Your betrayal is brutal but as Elle suggested it certainly seems that your husband is unable to deal with the hard stuff of life. My heart goes out to you. As a cancer survivor I can relate a bit to what you call fatigue. It must feel overwhelming to deal with physical symptoms plus the emotional roller coaster. I see no reason to add more stress to your life with the thoughts of a divorce. You need help, your kids want their dad around, and he is trying to make amends of a sort. It's far from perfect but as a cancer survivor you need to keep your stress level down, eat well, and above all rest. One day at a time is all we get. No one knows how much time they get but your view is intensified and the value of holding your kids tight and loving them is a great gift to give them. It's a difficult book but one full of meaning is The Last Lecture. The legacy we leave for our children is so important and your husband has so screwed up. That will be on his shoulders as he looks at the guy in the mirror even more so as he ages. Wishing some peace in the days and nights ahead as you try to heal. Yes, forgive him so you can have peace. He is weak, he ran away, he isn't who you thought but you get to set the atmosphere of the family. You can live as roommates if you want, but he doesn't get to runaway from his family in a time of crisis. Wishing you the very best.

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  13. I have been married for a year and half approx, together almost 10 years. My husband had a one night stand with someone (initially saying he was just unhappy, not sure what he wanted before he told me what really happened).
    I am also pregnant - was approx 20weeks when he cheated. He has not been staying at home for last 2 months & has only been seeing my once a week.
    For my birthday, I asked him to have a meal with me and when he didn't - I went to a girls address I found and he was going out to dinner with her. He says she is a friend, but was pissed off at me for going to this girls house (and blames me that she now wont speak to him). Is he lying that she is just a friend?
    I am so hurt, betrayed, humiliated and sad. My heart is broken. How could he do this to me especially while pregnant?
    We are going to marriage counselling but he is still unsure what he wants.
    I just cant give up without trying but i wonder if there's even any point.

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    1. You can't rebuild a marriage on your own. Your sheer will isn't enough.
      He cheated on you and is now telling you he isn't sure what he wants. But he IS telling you what he wants. What he wants is time to dither and date other women (how dare he blame his WIFE for interrupting his dinner with another woman! Can you see how insane that is??) and hope that you'll hang around while he has his fun. Your needs and wants don't matter to him. That's clear.
      You need some really clear boundaries around what is and is NOT acceptable. And what is NOT acceptable is what he's doing.
      Tell him he can have all the time in the world. You'll file a separation agreement. Don't get angry or scream. Stay as calm and rational as possible. (You can scream and rant when he's out of earshot.). But make it abundantly clear that you are now calling the shots with regards to what you'll put up with.
      Visit a lawyer and get clear on what a separation agreement entails. He has responsibilities, financially, for this child.
      Read up on the 180, which will help you move forward. I'm so sorry you're going through this. He sounds like a jackass.
      You can read about the 180 here: http://beingabeautifulmess.wordpress.com/the-180/

      Delete
  14. I hate affairs. My husband had two between 2010 and 2013, and I discovered one (over and over again) in 2013 and another one in May 2014. He is recovering with lots of marital counseling, love, support, engaging with me and our kids, etc - everything he is supposed to be doing. I was supportive until May when I found out about the affair back in 2010. Now we are working to heal our marriage but I feel more apathetic than engaged. I am trying, we are getting counseling, and I won't be stuck here forever.

    But I cannot understand how and why anyone would sacrifice values to do something so selfish as to have an affair(s). Both of my therapists say that good people can make bad choices (but that good people stop repeating these choices or insisting that their repeated bad choices are actually ok).

    Yes, my husband repeated and had two affairs... The first one was the gateway drug and he fell into the second one a couple of years later - he had not been caught and it seemed easy. He honestly seems to be invested with me and our family now. But, this is so different than a betraying spouse who is being cruel over and over, and without disregard for emotions, pregnancies, and all of the other sad things posted here. I am no different than you... I am hurt, sad, exploring, hugging my kids when they are confused by my mood swings... I am understanding to my best friend who lost himself and became depressed, and so hurt me deeply as he satisfied what he thought were his needs. I am here for him, but I am also confused. How could he choose to do this? Why did I have to dig for so much info and be the one to discover both affairs? Why weren't we strong enough to prevent this problem?

    Our pain is now a reality in our lives. And when you are pregnant, sick, or just normal (not that pregnant is not normal!), it just isn't fair that these guys make such hurtful choices. It is not fair to you. It is not fair to your baby or our kids or our friends (who miss us when we disappear to grieve) and our families. It really isn't. And I reject the notion that we were complicit in the affairs (this is a prevalent one among some therapists). Believe me, I don't like the woman from affair #1 and would not have condoned a 2nd one had I been asked! It is not our fault, but we can use this as a way to create a new and healthier self-image, potential for relationships (with our husband or a new person...), and to learn to be a better parent, friend, sister, etc.

    I am one who does not take things laying down. I urge you to take care of yourselves - eat right, sleep (which I need now!), exercise, get your nails done (also desperately need) or buy some clothes or anything to treat yourselves well. It seems to have helped me get to a better place. It even helps to ask for help from your husband (the perpetrator becomes the healer, right?) or family or friends - you can always ask for a hug.

    I am angry that I just realized my husband was sleeping with #1 when we celebrated a belated 10th anniversary in 2010. I am very angry about the Jackass who is belligerent about his secret relationships and his interfering pregnant wife (to quote my younger son in a crazy voice: "Are you kidding me?"). WTF. These selfish behaviors are not cool, and good people figure out how to stop. As I watched my husband painfully pull his head out of his ass over the last 1 1/2 years, I witnessed him making horrible and painful decisions in 2013 and better ones in 2014, and all the while making progress to heal (I promise it is real). He is a good man who made some exceptionally stupid choices. The trick for each of us, I suppose, is that we are the ones who have to distinguish (through our haze of sadness and pain) if they really are good people and are good to us, or if their heads are so firmly up their asses that we can no longer stand by them while they extricate themselves from the mess that they made.

    -GF

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    1. GF,
      Your story sounds like so many here. They cheat, we mop up the mess they make of our lives.
      You also sound stuck where so many of us get stuck: in the WHY of the affair. It doesn't make sense to us. It may never make sense to us. But it's not our job to necessarily understand the why. That's their job. To figure out what story they were telling themselves that made it okay. "Nobody gets hurt." "I work hard, I deserve a little fun." "My wife is always too busy with the kids." "She came on to me; what could I do...I'm a man." And blah blah cliché blah.
      You're right in that our task is to determine whether our marriage is worth saving. Whether he's worth a second chance.
      Your story also illustrates another point I tirelessly make on this site: when we find out, it's so important to find out everything. The trickle truth or outright lying simply compounds our pain and betrayal when we eventually do find out the whole story.

      Delete
  15. I am six and a half months past D-Day and am an emotional mess. I used to be a very self controlled, level headed person, but I've turned into someone who will all of a sudden lose control and holler and yell and break dishes and kick holes in walls. And afterwards I feel like such an idiot. For two months my H had what was mostly an emotional affair. They had sex once, which he admitted to me a few months ago didn't go very well because in the middle of it his conscious kicked in. When I asked him why he would hide something like that he told me that he didn't think it mattered much since his intent was there and he continued to spend time with her and lie to me for a couple of weeks after that. Is it strange that I feel a little bit of satisfaction out of knowing that he disappointed her? He ended the affair the day I confronted him. I'd suspected but couldn't prove anything up until she sent him a text and I grabbed his phone before he could stop me. It's funny because at that time it never even crossed my mind that his affair meant that he might leave me. I told him he had broken our marriage and that now he gets to fix it. I handed him his phone, told him to put it on speakerphone and call her and end it. I think that he was in so much shock that he didn't argue with me, he just called her, told her that I knew and that he wouldn't be seeing her again. He has told me everything that happened, way more than what I want to know. He's been very supportive and has done everything I've asked of him. I know he's not lying to me anymore, and he spends all of his time with me and he doesn't even see her at work anymore because she took a prolonged leave of absence a week after this happened. So why do I still feel the need to constantly check his phone records and facebook? And I really do mean constantly, like a dozen time a day and in the middle of the night. Is that ever going to go away? I have such terrible anxiety attacks and I'm so shaky and scatterbrained, that I had to quit my job. I was a server. Most people don't appreciate it when half their meal ends up on the floor before it gets to the table and that's if you remember that they ordered anything to begin with. My doctor tried putting me on anti-anxiety meds but they didn't agree with me. Then he tried me on sedatives to help me sleep but those only put me out for a few hours at a time, and they didn't get rid of the nightmares. I often wonder if those will ever go away. I don't have anyone to talk to about this except my H. We've talked about going to marriage counseling but we live in a small town and I personally know all the therapists, I grew up here (my H didn't) and I don't feel comfortable talking to any of them. Plus, nobody knows about his affair and I want to keep it that way. Small towns can be brutal when it comes to gossip and I have two school aged children that don't need to hear about it. I don't have any close friends or family that I can talk to about this. I truly love my H but haven't decided if I'm going to stay with him and he knows that. Some days I think that we can make it through this and other days I think, if I don't get out now, I never will. Any advice you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

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    1. Sweetheart, you are experiencing post-trauma. The anxiety, the sleeplessness, the hyper-vigilance. All that's normal in the weeks and even early months post-betrayal. But, I think, you should be seeing even marginal positive changes by now.
      I completely understand your reluctance to seek out a therapist in your home town. I hope you know, however, that they are professionally bound by confidentiality. Or perhaps you could go to a nearby town and find someone there? I think it's crucial that you find someone who can help you work through all this and come out the other side. Otherwise, you're stuck in this loop you can't escape.
      Are you trying anything on your own, such as mindfulness techniques? You can google meditation or mindfulness, which is essentially training to stop that "monkey mind" that chatters day and night. It takes time but is worth every second.
      Or try a gratitude practice. Sounds hokey but can go a long toward reminding you of what you DO have instead of what you don't. Somedays my gratitude list included things such as "a sheet to pull over my head" or "my children are alive". But some days, that's enough.
      I'm so sorry for the pain you're in. But please, out of compassion for yourself, find someone who can guide you through it. You deserve that.

      Delete
    2. Oh man, I can feel your anger and who doesn't when this awful stuff happens. But I agree with Elle that you really do need to see a therapist wherever you can. Your anger is going to spill over onto your kids even if you think they don't know. Having to walk around you because you might explode is child abuse certainly for your kids if they see you throw things and kicking holes in walls. Kids model what they see and feel. And your husband created the mess no doubt about it but from what I've learned it's going to take both of you to fix it. It took along time for me to accept that I set up some things in our marriage that led to the affairs. And there were two which was like two knives in my back. If you can hold onto one thought this is it. Feelings change. A yr from now you won't be feeling the anger that you do today or at least not as intensely. Distract yourself with taking care of your kids, walks, shopping but let go of the anger or it will poison both you and your kids. They won't thank you when their adults. I know that for sure

      Delete
  16. Hi Elle, thank you for your response. There are things that I do to help myself try and cope with everything. I run for a half hour every day, I keep a journal and write down everything that I'm thinking. I try to meditate, my doctor actually suggested that, but I can't seem to keep my mind from wandering back to all the bad stuff going on in my head. Don't get me wrong, I do have good days where I can focus mainly on the positive things. But there are a lot of times that I look in the mirror and don't recognize myself. I just feel like I've lost myself in all of this. I've never felt like this before, not even with my first husband, who also cheated on me. I found out after getting a pap smear done and my doctor called and told me that I had an STD. I kicked him out that same day and never looked back. But this is different and I don't understand why twenty years ago I had no problem letting go of someone that was capable of hurting me like that but now I'm willing to tolerate it from someone else. I am unfortunately in a position where the only person I can talk to about any of this is my H, and since I don't trust him, I have a hard time believing anything he says. It doesn't make any sense to me, how I can love someone that I have absolutely no trust in.

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    1. I'm assuming you're the same anonymous who's 6.5 months out? While that probably seems like an eternity, it's not so long in healing time. Most experts say 3 - 5 years before you feel like it's truly behind you.
      It sounds as if you're doing really positive things -- running, journalling, meditating. Don't worry if you can't stop your mind from wandering. Meditation isn't about sitting in some blissful state where all thought is suspended. It's really about training your mind to keep coming back to that stillness each time it wanders.
      Don't try to make sense of your emotions at this point. Focus on learning to trust yourself. Trust yourself to take care of yourself. Trust yourself to stay safe. Trust yourself to know that, no matter what others do, it doesn't change who you are.
      This is a long road. Keep putting one foot in front of the other. Curl up in a ball when necessary. Seek help to support you through the really dark days. Remember that many of us are on the same road -- some ahead, some behind. Help light the way for those behind you and be guided by those who are ahead.
      As for trusting your spouse: right now, he's shown you that he's capable of betraying that trust. It's his job to become a better man, a better husband and someone worthy of that second chance. If he does that, you will begin to trust him more. But the days of trusting him implicitly are over. And that's not a bad thing. It simply means your eyes have been opened to what even those we love – and who love us – are capable to doing.

      Delete
  17. Sam here again. 14 months post d day #1. Sorry I am repeating the idea of one of my recent posts. I remember reading somewhere that a betrayed wife found year 2 to be even worse because of "this is it". I can't imagine anything worse than year 1. I am certainly much better. No more emotional roller coaster. I am happy we didn't divorce. We have a better relationship now than we probably ever have.

    I am not depressed but sad. This is it, in the sense that I have read everything there is to read about infidelity, trust, recovery, and the all important why -- the real reasons and the justifications. There is no more to learn, no truth to uncover, no crucial fact left to discover that would be the key to how/ why this happened.

    The answer is simply that shit happens. Bad things happen to good people. This is it. Now it's time to move on.

    Sad.

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    Replies
    1. Hi Sam,

      I'm not as far out as you (just past 6 months post d-day) but can definitely relate. Like you my marriage is really going in the right direction. In many ways we are better than we have been in years, we are much more like true partners in everything life throws at us, and are starting to laugh and have fun more and more. He is even really starting to "get it" as far as being remorseful for what he did, my need for total honesty and to not sweep the affair under the carpet. But I am still sometimes really overcome with sadness about what he has done, often it isn't a particular trigger or anything. I think that maybe because I have found more love for my husband due to all of the good ways our relationship has improved since d-day, it hurts more when I think about what he did. Also now that he is no longer working with his AP and has no contact with her, I am not in competitive mode anymore and am left with dealing with the person my husband was during his affair, and wondering if he is capable of changing. I find what helps sometimes is telling myself that he almost needed to have his affair and for me to find out the way I did, for him for him to become a better person and come face to face with and reject the side of himself that was an arrogant, childish, self-entitled prick.

      I too have read a lot as I feel more in control the more knowledge I have. And I am trying to come to terms with the fact that all this knowledge can't fix me or erase the past. And a book can't really tell me his whys, it can give me ideas but he needs to work those out himself. Still, the reading has helped in a lot of ways, especially in knowing that I am not crazy, and I am not expecting too much from him.

      Take care and I hope you are having a better week. Like Elle wisely replied to your earlier post I think we have to just let ourselves grieve. It will go on for a long time but it will gradually get easier.

      LC

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    2. LC-
      Are you me? I could have written that. You've nailed the reason I still feel so sad- maybe even more sad than at the beginning. Everything you wrote, I think and feel, and I am about as far along as you are, and my husband is working things out, too. It was very strange to read your post!
      C.

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  18. Tomorrow is one year after finding out that my husband was not the good christian husband he claimed to be over our 13 year relationship…followed by trickle truth for 5 months even though I specifically and clear-sighted stated that finding out more after his initial ”full disclosure” would set me back to start. It hurts so much that he continued to lie untill I showed him hard evidence – only then he would confess to anything.
    His infidelity mainly took place while travelling, which he conveniently does as much as he desires as he owns a company that spans three continents. … He is also travelling right now.
    I will never trust him completely again – but now he knows the consequences of cheating and that he will have to tell what he did to the children, if he ever does it again. I will not do that for him. Our marriage is working so well on the surface. He is loving and caring, and I am my own old self taking care of everything at home.
    I really want to enjoy a fullfilling marriage, but I am so stuck in my bitterness over 7 years where I begged him to work on our marriage and he just ignored it and topped it up by cheating on me. He denied having sex with me from 2006 because I had told him that I had problems with sex. I wanted to fix the problems and went to se a counsellor who helped me – within a year of telling him about my problems, but he just stopped wanting me after that and never came back. After a few minor incidents in 2008 and 2010 (where he had asked for a divorce, but instead promised to do what it would take … and then not do anything) he slid down the slippery slope and indulged in two very short-lived but intense affairs. He decided to stop the affairs on his own, but never did anything to get back into our marriage, which I always begged him to do, telling him honestly how I felt and how I hurt when he ignored me.
    He is a changed man now. Really doing his best – we even have sex regularly, but I feel so stuck. How do I move and put the bitterness and anger behind me? Within the past month I have had mammography for the first time in 8 years, and just started exercising and dieting. At least I should fulfill my dream of losing the 12 pounds that annoyed me badly for 12 years. I also plan on finding a path of my own – to regain my independence. I hate to be dependent on somebody who betrayed me and used me like this

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    1. You're actually doing pretty well from the sounds of it at one year out. Working on your own self-respect, drawing very clear boundaries around what you will/won't do.
      The anger...well, that takes a long time, especially, I think, when the infidelity took place over a long time and when you were asking him to help you build a better marriage. There's a whole lot of hurt there that the anger is masking.
      In my experience, the anger begins to dissipate when you can reveal the hurt and he's able to acknowledge it. To truly acknowledge it and take responsibility for his role in creating it. When a husband can do that, it's amazing how quickly that tight ball of anger begins to loosen and we can begin to trust again. It can't just happen once. It has to happen each and every time you feel triggered. Each and every time you feel scared.
      Sadly many men can't do this. Their own feelings of guilt and shame trump our feelings of hurt and fear and they simply can't or won't show up to acknowledge our hurt. So many of them think that it means we're living in the past, or refusing to "let go". It's the farthest thing from the truth. We're desperate to "let go"...but it takes trust to do so.
      Your role in this is to recognize whether you're deliberately holding on to anger as a shield.
      In the meantime, stay focussed on what you need to feel good going forward.

      Delete
  19. I hope you have a good therapist to help you through this cause it sounds like your husband maybe a narcissist. Just guessing by the way you describe him. My husband came from a very religious family and they had nothing to say against his wandering then sin is everywhere, the Devil made me do it, and every biblical story you could think of it. Sadly, people are flawed, they screw up, and usually it's the children who suffer the most even when everyone is " pretending" life is great here. If you have a chance, read Frank Pittman( Private Lies). It was bible in my darkest hr. And one yr past is really too soon to think of getting past the anger. More like two to five yrs my therapist would say. If your husband is like mine, he loves being in charge ( all the better to control) and traveling makes it all so easy too cheat, doesn't it? The power is in your hands for sure but what you model to your kids is so very important. Good luck in trying to figure out how you want your marriage to work now. The one you had is gone, but hopefully you can let go of the anger enough to figure out what you want. I stayed for the kids, and actually my husband traveling was a real break. Take it from me, pretending is exhausting and your kids really will figure it out even if they don't verbalized it.

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  20. Joining the second year blues club. I have been hit hard by overwhelming sadness. A totally different kind than what befell me during year 1. I can't tell if I am just impatient to be "over" this or if it is because I still don't feel my H really gets it and hasn't done enough. I have mentioned it here before, he is working hard on being a better person and a better husband, but addressing the affair and making amends for that--not so much.
    As much as I have cooed over how things have changed for the better, I am beginning to wonder if he will ever really show true remorse. I think he feels it but his ego won't let him admit to it. I am not sure if I can stick with this marriage if he can't really do the actions that demonstrate remorse.
    Anyway, year 2 really does feel like the sophmore slump right now.
    -MBS

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    1. MBS,
      Been there, sister. In some ways the second year feels worse because we figure things should be so much better by then. When they're not -- when it feels like we're still wading through his crapfest -- it can be such a let-down.
      What, exactly, do you need from him that you're not getting? See if you can figure it out. And then tell him. Give him the chance to give you what you need.
      He might not be able to. Or he might not be able to do it very well. But you might also be surprised.
      If he can't or won't, then it's time to figure out what you want going forward. Sometimes it takes a year or two to let the dust settle to figure out that you don't want to rebuild it. That you are well and truly done.
      It always comes down to respecting yourself and your needs/wants.

      Delete
    2. MBS I feel exactly the way u do. I can't tell him what I want now because I don't know. Maybe it's as u said, that I would like to be further along. I'm not angry anymore, not weeping constantly. He has paid so much attention to me & done everything I have asked. We spend time as a family, have some alone time, I have access to phone & emails though I haven't checked in months. A few weeks ago I actually told him I don't want to check on him anymore. I want to be able to & I want him to account for his whereabouts but this is not a jail & I don't want to feel like his warden. I'm a big proponent of free will & anti nagging. I told him I don't want him here if he doesn't want to be here. (Of course he wants to be here; he didn't leave me for any of the other women)

      Like your husband, mine is not overly vocal about his remorse. But some people are more about actions. Also, every now & then he makes a comment like he doesn't want to think about them or what they did, or he wishes he could take somethig for us both to forget, etc. he's just not the type to walk around apologizing a million times a day. Honestly I think I'd get sick of that anyway.

      So it's not that I need something else or want something else from him. After the last year the shock is over, the need to rehash every detail is gone, it feels almost like it happened in a different marriage to 2 different people. Although I still think there were more affairs than what he admitted to, most of the time I figure it doesn't matter. When I read Peggy Vaughn's book I thought does it matter at this point if there were 7 or 10 or 12, or when they occurred or for how long or where they went or when they had sex.

      Maybe this is just a normal part of the grieving process; hopefully we are on our way to acceptance. MBS I'm so happy u wrote in. Now I know I'm not alone. I did tell my husband I was sad & a little confused as to what is wrong & where to go from here. He didn't know why either.

      Thank u for sharing.

      Sam

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  21. Thank you for your support. This blog makes such a difference for me. I have somewhere to turn for sound advise! ...and thank you Elle for your pad on the shoulder. Very welcome, when I dont seem to go anywhere:-)

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  22. I am in the same rut. We are 1 year 10 months post dday. I feel really f'd up. I have been playing the numbing game for a while. Started to drink on a regular basis behind H back (he is onto me now). Not that it's an excuse but I would drink just enough to take the edge off (not to a drunken stupor). The overwhelming anxiety was more than I could take. Two years of mental battering and betrayal. Most of the "nonsense" often came to light on my way home from work. That seems to be when I feel this overwhelming anxiety. It appears that the repeated trauma left an itty bitty scar! I know I need to get a grip. I feel incredibly alone and overwhelmed. My mother was recently diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. She's young, 60. Worked her whole life; they bought a house in Florida a year ago...her dream. And now, she is so ill- dreams unfulfilled...I am the "rock' in the family. I have been taking care of my parent's affairs: bills, doctors, this call, that call. I have my own family with two children. I have been so incredibly triggered by my mother's illness. In reality year 2 has brought me a ton of head trash: 1. The OW remarried. Turns out she and the new H had a domestic that resulted in his arrest just a week before the wedding. Kinda funny and Karmic! But at the same time, this event kicks up a lot of anger, too. Why? Why make me suffer for a p.o.s. like that? 2. H's boundaries at work with a few females had to be addressed at home and during counseling. He is still not capable of making good decisions. When will that change? Will I ever feel safe? Will I ever be able to trust him? Is he so incredibly needy that he will one day betray me again? Does he even love me? Does he know how to love me? How does one love another and do all that? I know the first thing I need to do is stop the drinking. Get a grip. Go back to counseling with him. I checked out months ago. I am so completely lost right now. Sorry for the rambling. For the record, I am completely sober.

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    1. I'm so sorry for all that you're going through. Your mother's illness is undoubtedly triggering all sorts of earlier injuries. And yes, 60 is far too young.
      Control what you can control and let go of the rest. Begin with the drinking, which, as you no doubt know, is a depressant.
      And then, perhaps, put couples counselling aside for now and focus on individual counselling to help you deal with your mother's illness and the infidelity. Focus on you. Get yourself to a place where, as much as possible right now, you feel on solid ground. In the meantime, let him focus on his own stuff. If he's still struggling with boundaries, then he's missing something that needs his attention.
      But that's HIS stuff. As my friend says, keep your own side of the street clean first.

      Delete
  23. Right after discovery and for the next following months I also drank, 1 beer, just enough to take the edge off, until I realized it was making things worse, because alcohol is actually a depressant. And when it wore off I was very depressed. I stopped when my husband thought I was drinking too much and I realized it was making things worse.

    My 1-1/2 hour car ride home every day was the worst time for me, which I told my husband. So he tried to call me from work to talk when he could, which would keep my mind from wandering. You sound like you do need to go back to counseling, bc the questions you are asking are those post discovery ones. It sounds like you still have unresolved why issues that you and your husband need to address. Eventually I just got used to the car ride home, but you can try calling a friend or relative if it is a long ride or listening to books on CD. I knew that my drive was sort of a trigger, since it was a place when my mind would race. Knowing that, you can prepare for what is to come and eventually it will diminish, although not completely disappear.

    Sam

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  24. Part I
    So now in the car I just have mental movies, not of me imagining him w them (I guess my mind is too concrete for that), but of memories of him with them. And when I remember I feel a lump in my throat & a pit in my stomach.

    I remember one of the other women (he was friends w all of them before having emotional &/or physical affairs) coming over to our house in the morning before the 2 of them were going to my husbands office as she was contemplating going to medical school thinking she was so pretty & seemed so self confident & outgoing & friendly-- almost the opposite of me (except for the pretty part; I think I'M pretty). And I remember at some point afterwards my husband asking him mom wasn't she pretty (as if u need approval from ur mom as to how pretty ur mistress is).

    I remember her talking & talking & talking to my husband right in front of me as well as her own husband, who actually came up to her & said does she know ther are other guests at her daughters christening & how sarcastic her husband was. (That's called cold rage, as opposed to having a shouting match about it).

    I remember almost every time we went somewhere on vacation how he always had to make a private call & how soft his voice got, which meant he was talking to a woman. And he would just poo poo me when I brought it up, as if I was either crazy or it just wasn't important.

    I remember when Another female friend (this one was an emotional affair) came to our old house & was standing against the fence in our back yard (I was watching from inside) & she was flirting w my husband in front of her own kids.

    I remember when another friend who turned into a physical affair came over to our house in the summer w her daughter but of course without her husband. I was watching her & my husband have a water gun fight from our bathroom & she was flirting w him then. At the time my husband said I was crazy. But THOSE days are over. I may be naive but I know what I saw & I've been right EVERY time.

    One of my books calls this cold rage. I was so angry & resentful & tried to bury it but it would fester & then come out in my hostile interactions with my husband. But this is not about me blaming him. Yes he was absolutely at fault for doing this but I was more at fault. What woman allows her husband to do this. Not that it was up to me to ALLOW his actions, because I'm a big advocate of free will, but what woman tolerates it? THAT is ALL my fault. I really thought that he was with me BECAUSE he was free to do as he pleased & I thought if I argued about it he would leave me. How stupid/desperate was I (not because he obviously didn't want to leave but because I feel like I sacrificed my own dignity & sense of self worth out of fear).

    At least on a subconscious level I think he felt he had to keep me at a distance, he almost had to in some way maintain our problems because I'm sure he needed some sort of mental justification for what he was doing. Otherwise I don't think his conscience would have let him continue.

    Sam

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    1. Sam,
      Yes, I think it's important to recognize that you allowed it...but don't beat yourself up. Like you, I took pride in being one of those women who was never jealous, never threatened. I thought I was so laid-back and cool. But that's not a bad thing. That someone took advantage of that is what's truly abhorrent. And those women! Good lord, Sam. What the fuck is wrong with them that they would be so blatantly disrespectful of you?? I'll tell you. They don't respect themselves and, therefore, have no idea what boundaries look/feel like.

      Delete
  25. Part 2

    This was at it's worst that day he announced in front of everyone at the kitchen table that I'm not allowed (or however he phrased it) to ask when he will be home or what he is doing. Imagine how that made me feel. I'm expected to have food ready but I don't have the right to ask when, forget about me not knowing where he is or whom he is with or what he is doing. I realize he was doing it to perpetuate his lifestyle & not bc he really think I don't have a right to know what hes doing.
    But What's worse is that I kept going along. I felt degraded but did nothing. THAT is what I don't want to go back to. All those years I felt something was wrong with ME, that I was INADEQUATE as both a woman & a wife; otherwise why would he need all these other women. Now, over 10 years later thru his own admissions, I see the problem was w him.

    My attitude now is completely different. Now that I feel like we have a great relationship I never want to go back to how insecure & insignificant I felt then.

    Sam

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  26. Sam: I am right there with you. NEVER going back in that cage.

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  27. It has been a month and a couple of days since I found out my husband has been cheating. For the last seven months I've been in and out of the hospital and doctor offices. I had multiple tumors in my uterus and cervix and was very tired and weak from all the symptoms I was having. I have had two surgeries and am tumor free and am recovering nicely. In that time, my husband has blamed me for not having enough intimate time with him. He blames me for not having enough sex with him. He blames me for not making him feel desired. He has told me that this is my fault and I should have been there for him, regardless of how sick I was.

    He has told me that he now wants to make our marriage work, and that he loves me. Although I love him, I am no longer in love with him. I am hurt, angry and I have this rage that surfaces. He abandoned me when I was sick and I don't think I can ever forgive him. He wants to go to therapy. The thing is, I don't think I do. I don't think I want to be with a man that intentionally hurt me. Yes, choosing to have an affair is an intentional act.

    I feel like I'm the bad guy for not trying to work things out. But the bottom line is, in the month that I have discovered his cheating ways, I haven't gotten any better. I've gotten worse and the longer I stay in this marriage, the more dirty I feel. I shower and scrub my body until I'm raw and I can't wash away how I feel.

    We still live in the same house, but I am leaving when I have enough money saved. It's his house, he grew up here, so I have no rights. I can live on my salary plus alimony.

    I can't even focus anymore. This whole infidelity business has made me crazy. I've lost weight, my hair is falling out and I can't sleep. I realize there is no time line on healing, but if only I could erase 2014, because apparently this whole year of our marriage has been a lie.

    I hope to come out of this and be able to one day laugh and smile. I miss my old self, and I'm working slowly to reclaim my self.

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    1. Just Kim,
      You're not "just" anything. You're a force to be reckoned with. I'm with you -- I don't think I could forgive someone for emotionally abandoning me during such a frightening time and for blaming me for not meeting HIS needs. He sounds utterly selfish and childish.
      Please, however, get yourself into counselling to help you with the grief of your illness and his betrayal of you. You will come out of this, but you can come out of it more quickly and more whole if you can unload a lot of this pain and process it with the help of someone who can guide you.
      Your old self is still there. Buried beneath so much hurt...but still there.

      Delete
    2. Thank you Elle. It's been so hard for me. I have immersed myself I to my job, and when I go home, I curl up on my sofa and fall asleep.

      I've been searching for a therapist in downtown San Francisco, and you know what? No one is taking new clients! We all must be crazy here.

      I just feel like my entire foundation has been pulled out from underneath me. I know I'm strong. I know I will survive. Getting through each moment has been so much effort.

      I finally cried the other day. I had not cried at all since this whole thing happened. I guess that's just the process. I know the old adage one day at a time, but I don't want many more days to slip by as I have a life to live.

      Delete
    3. There's a great counselling line that operates out of the SF area for women dealing with infidelity. Give them a call. They've got trained peer counsellors who can help you until you can find an in-real-life counsellor:
      http://www.infidelitycounselingnetwork.org
      Click on the Talk to a Peer Counsellor button.
      And cry.

      Delete
    4. Hey Just Kim,
      I am in SF. I would love you to join the support group I just started. Or just get connected. I can also share therapy resources.
      contact me at sanfranban@gmail.com--if you are interested.


      Delete
  28. Hi,
    Come across this blog when I was googling "how to overcome betrayal by husband"
    I have 3 young lovely princesses. Full time Home mother ever since my eldest started Primary School education. Hoping to give her more attention and guidance.

    My man. Not the first time. When I conceive my #1, i discovered him with a gal who is going to get married. They even have sex in my matrimony home while I am out! I forgave him cos he realise his mistake i stay for my gal.

    Then 1.5yrs later, he did it again. He find Pros. one hand can talk to me nicely, another hand can msn the girl to meet up. I saved the chat in another folder and came home check... confront him. Full of anger! He say never meet the girl but i already felt betrayed and when is he lying or telling the truth. I gave him another chance about 1 mth later becos of the kids too.

    After my #3 is born, again he recontact the gal he had affair for the first time. Accidently saw the email they were exchanging. Hurts me alot. We sleep separate for sometime and I even look up lawyer. He beg for forgivenesss. Whether they have sex again or not I dont know. I just feel so sad and why...

    Now it has been 3.5years. Everything sound ok. I start building up trust for him. IT TOOK YEARS TO TRUST BUT SECONDS TO BREAK! Till recently I found him lie to me. He took half day work go to KTV Lounge with his colleagues. Been calling him numerous time and never pick my call. Tell me he be back for dinner end up no. I was so worried did he meet any accident? I nearly want to make police report! Then he finally call back sound v drunk. I ask him what happen he keep saying no women. Fine. Then till recently 3 days ago friday he told me need to work at night. I believe him.

    Then unlucky i accidently took his handphone as ours same brand n similar. I saw his what app images. He went to find those KTV gals again. I confront him. I was calm. Already cried my tears dried. Starting he flare up BUT after awhile he say yes but just drinking n hugging. DO YOU CHOSE TO BELIEVE?? I feel very hard.

    Next day I told him a separation. If he still want to stray i let go. He no need bother about the kids. I wan all of them with me. He refuse a divorce. refuse separation. He use stress as excuse. All along!

    I m lost... i dont want to harsh harsh and now sleep with my gals. One sided want to leave. Another side I dont know can I do it. I still love him but i find it hard to forget n trust. I never give him any answer... I am still searching an answer for myself.....

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    Replies
    1. I think you do know the answer but just don't want to say it out loud. He's made it clear to you that he will stray. Doesn't matter whether it was "drinking and hugging" or sex. He betrayed you. That's what matters. And there's little in your post to indicate that he's remorseful, ashamed, and willing to do whatever it takes to earn back your trust. Without that, there's pretty much a guarantee it will happen again.
      You need to contact a lawyer and figure out what you're entitled to in terms of support and custody. Only when you've got a plan for a separation that makes sure you're safe, then tell him. If he's genuinely willing to change for the better, then you'll see it over the following months. But in any case, you'll give yourself and your kids the space to get away from his lying and carrying on.

      Delete
  29. I'm usually not a person who writes their feelings down, but it seems to be a recurring suggestion so here we go. 2 weeks ago, I found out my husband of 3 years had a month long affair with a coworker. It happened 10 months ago and he cut it off.
    A little background. 2 months after we were married he was diagnosed with aggressive cancer. He was in the hospital for 4 months and is now in remission. He has never been an emotional guy & he was trying to be strong for those around him. He never dealt with the feelings that went along with his illness. Back then, he tried to bottle everything up & was resentful of how his illness changed our lives. I could tell he was a different person than the man I married but I thought I should let it go. After all, I didn't know what it was like to nearly die & he didn't want to talk about it because he didn't want his cancer to define his whole life. Now, he can tell me he felt guilty & like "less of a man" since his treatment caused him to be unable to father a child naturally. He felt jealousy & anger towards our friends & their "normal" lives. He felt like he needed to "break the rules" since he had always been the guy who does the right thing. He says that the affair had nothing to do with her, or sex, or me...that it was the idea of not missing out on life & she was an escape. He says it could have been drugs, excessive alcohol use- anything, but that this opportunity presented itself and was the easiest option at the time.
    I knew this woman was attracted to him. We all went to the gym together (his employer offers it to employees & their spouses) & I could tell something was up. I asked him about it & he insisted they were just friends. It would deeply affect me to be around her- instant anger & annoyance as soon as she walked in the room. I fooled myself into thinking that we were immune to infidelity after everything we had been through. Plus we were having regular sex & while we had our ups and downs, there were no problems to speak of in our marriage. However, my gut just kept bugging me so I did some digging. I looked at phone records from that time in our lives & saw too many texts for "just friends". When I confronted him the truth finally came out.
    Phone records match up with his story- that he cut it off when he realized that the affair wasn't helping him with the feelings he was having & when the guilt got to be too intense. He says what he did made him realize how much he wants a life with me, & he can't believe he was stupid enough to jeopardize that. I could tell things were different after he cut it off. He changed back to the man I married & even our friends noticed we had him back. We went on the honeymoon we never got to take, went to the doctor to plan for IVF, bought a new house, & he supported me through my mom's death a few months ago. Part of me wonders if I my decision to stay or go would be easier if I had found out right away, before he had time to show me what our life could be...or could have been.
    He has been doing everything he should be doing. Holding me when I cry, answering questions, suggesting counseling, & dealing with this post D-Day roller coaster. I saw him cry for the first time in our life together when he saw how much pain I was in & again when I suggested divorce in a particularly low moment. Since then, we went to see a counselor who wisely told us to put divorce on a shelf until we can work through our individual issues.
    I'm going through all the emotions of feeling like I'm not enough, or that my resentment of this woman drove him to her. I've got intense hysterical bonding going on & too many pictures in my head. This blog is helping. The articles are wise & the sense of community is comforting, even if it's a community I would rather not be a member of.

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    1. I'm so glad you found us. As you've no doubt read, everything you're experiencing in the wake of betrayal is "normal". And I think your therapist is wise to suggest just focussing on healing right now. You can make lifelong decisions later when you're feeling a bit more rational. I suspect you've both learned the hard way that a good marriage is hard work and commitment and driving through the pain.
      You've also got good instincts, which is important to recognize. You've known each time your husband was avoiding his own issues and when someone was a threat to your marriage. It's time for your husband to recognize his own unhealthy patterns.

      Delete
  30. wel I can't get back to where my two post and your two replies were but

    Thank you for the support and words of wisdom . I think I did not say what I am feeling right . When I say "I want to feel safe " I am not meaning it in the way you sounds . I think ,know my problem is with feeling "safe " to trust . Like I want to know I can trust him again without worry , without second guessing , without fear that he's lying . Safe was not the correct word to use . I am very independent ,a bit too much at times . I am also ODC so I have this need to understand ever blessed thing . I have a need to make sense out of every thing , get answers to all . In this case it's not a great way to be . I need to learn to let some of the questions go . I have to learn how to stop the negative thinking and try to remember the positive things he is doing and saying . Thanks for this blog . This may be hell but I plan on walking through it :-)

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  31. My husband had an affair one and a half years ago. We both decided to stay together and work on us and it has been going very well. However, I cannot stop the need to keep snooping in his things. I have stopped looking at his phone but, I feel like inspector gadget snooping around will this all stop with time?

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    1. It won't automatically stop with time if you've made it a habit. The way to stop is to stop. Set yourself some boundaries. For instance, if you have a bad feeling in your gut, then wait 24 hours. Ask yourself if it's still there. If it's not, no snooping. If it is, then take that opportunity to log into his e-mail or check his phone or whatever you've set up between the two of you to give you access to his "privacy".
      But ask yourself also what this snooping is about. Do you legitimately think something is going on? Is this your instinct kicking in or are you pain-shopping? Is it a way of making yourself feel "safe", as in "nobody's going to pull on over me again"?

      Delete
    2. I also find myself still checking e-mail and rummaging through drawers and closets even though I KNOW there is nothing left to find- which is what I tell myself every time the urge strikes. I'm 6-1/2 months in, really 3-1/2 with all the continued lying for 3 months. I suspect I still do this to feel "safe," to be sure that I won't be stupid again like I was for 7-10 years. I also find that I search through the places of trauma- dresser drawers, closets, e-mail, phone records. Somehow this behavior soothes me and reduces my anxiety. I sure don't do it as often as I did early in the process- it is WAY less. But periodically anxiety strikes and I think, "Just to be sure." Logically, I know it's silly, but what in this whole mess is actually logical? I think part of the reason I still check e-mail and phone records is that I want him to know I'm paying attention now, and he knows I will ask questions if I see something hinky. The drawer and closet snooping is only related to anxiety. (Isn't anxiety a wonderful thing? Can't live with it, can't live without it right now.)
      C.

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  32. Thank you. Thank ALL of you for your stories, your words of wisdom, and your support. I am new to the site, 16 months past D-Day after finding out about an 8 yr affair (the "story" came out in pieces, lies following lies until I finally had it all). I am so not alone now. Thank you for not making me feel crazy, stupid, and unworthy. Reconciliation, trying to believe in promises from someone who says he'll do anything and everything to make it all up, highs, low, flashbacks, and feeling like a total jerk for being so, so blind and letting myself be used for all of these years.
    I hope to write more. I want to make anyone new here feel as good as you all have made me feel. Thank you, again (and again!).

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    1. Wow! That's quite an endorsement. So glad you've found us. It's crucial to understand that you're not alone. We've been exactly where you are. This isn't the end of the world, though it sometimes feels like it. I hope you'll continue to post and share your story. We're the club nobody wants to join...but we're an awesome group of women (and a few men).

      Delete
  33. I am not sure what to do. I finishing up 2 years post D-Day. I have a friend who has grown distant over the past year. She was there for me throughout my ordeal of discovery, rediscovery etc. She saw me shed many tears, nearly lose my mind and now reconciling the past. I know that she has had two affairs. She has expressed remorse for her behavior but still remains unhappy in her marriage. I have learned that over the past several months she has begun another affair. She has not revealed the affair to me. However, I know that she spend a lot of time talking, texting and meeting up with this man who is married. This man is a friend to the family. He is married with children and the two families socialize as their children go to the same school. I don't know him. However, I do know her husband and feel a certain obligation to let him know what is going on. I don't think I could confront him directly but am inclined to send him an anonymous note. At the same time, I feel immense guilt and bad karma for doing this. What would you do?

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    1. I would come back to what I would want for myself. Would I want to know? And if so, how would I like to find out.
      If he's like so many of us, he has a feeling already. And it can be crazy-making to wonder if something's up but not be able to confirm it.
      I can understand your concern re. telling the husband directly. I would be prepared to face blame even if you tell him anonymously. Your "friend" will be looking for someone to blame. But frankly, I'd think about whether you need this "friend" in your life.
      What's the "bad karma" about? Telling? Not telling? Telling anonymously? I don't think we can go wrong when we treat others exactly how we would want to be treated. Whatever happens after that is out of your hands.

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  34. Thank you for the advice. I am curious about your position to write off my "friend." I agree that at this time I am unable to be a friend to her. However, I am curious why you seem to admonish her for cheating and lying but you often encourage forgiveness with the wives and husbands on this cite who are or have been cheated on.
    Karma...I guess there are consequences to both sides; to tell or not to tell. I haven't pulled the trigger, yet. I am in a contemplative state. I am hoping her brandish behavior with this man all over town will eventually catch up to her.

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    1. Ya know...that's a good point re. my apparent hypocrisy around forgiveness of spouses and dismissal of friends.
      What I was responding to was that this wasn't her first affair, which tells me she's either clueless about the pain she's causing (despite seeing it very clearly in you) or careless about the pain she's causing (which indicates she's not someone I would want to have in my life).
      However, it's easy to say about a nameless woman I don't know. Perhaps you have a history with her that makes it clear to you she can be a better person. That's obviously a choice you need to make in terms of whether she makes your life better or not.
      And just to be clear, I don't advocate forgiveness of any cheater who doesn't show remorse and a strong desire to learn from his mistake. Sometimes the betrayed wife's response should be to get out of the marriage. But for those who want to rebuild, I maintain that it's possible.

      Delete
    2. Your friend, who has seen you suffer (and your husband and family, too?) the consequences of betrayal, and yet she continues to go out and willfully attempt to destroy other marriages for her own sad needs? Infidelity is emotionally, physically and frequently financially destructive to betrayed spouse, the children etc. You know that first hand. Are you comfortable with the contempt and disrespect that she has repeatedly shown to her husband, children and the wives and families of her affair partners? At what point do we say enough and hold "friends" or co-workers who go around molesting other marriages accountable for their pathetic and destructive behavior? It would take a lot of courage and self-conviction to confront your friend directly. And letting the betrayed spouse know, anonymously or otherwise can have significant repercussions. But perhaps you'd consider letting her current affair partner know that he is not her "first". What he does with that information...who can predict. But at least he knows others in his immediate community are aware and perhaps that will shake him up enough to do the right thing by his family before it is too late. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing but it doesn't matter to those with social pathology. C. in Lutz

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  35. I agree that her repeated affairs say a lot. I am choosing to remain at a distance. I know that even if she were to share the affair with me she wouldn't listen to my advice. She is in "the fog." I hear what you are saying and it makes complete sense. However, many of us have stayed while the affair was ongoing or while the cheater was trying to "figure things out." We have stayed and waited for that remorse. How many of us have moved that line in the sand so far that we were drowning in the ocean? I can only speak for myself but I did compromise many of my convictions when I was faced with my H's on and off again affair. He finally came around but had I been less forgiving we would not be rebuilding.

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    1. I'm glad your patience and compassion were rewarded. I don't know if I could have done the same. We all walk our own path, don't we.
      And I admire your understanding of your friend's situation. I hope someday she'll appreciate your loyalty and wisdom.

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  36. Stuck here!
    I'm 5 months post D-day. (Well 9 months from finding out about the emotional affair, 5 months from knowing everything.) Briefly, he had a year long affair with a woman he met who worked at a sporting arena where he had season tickets. He told me he felt rejected and unwanted because my sex drive dwindled after I had kids. Which it did, but we were still having sex, just not as much as he wanted.
    Anyway, after I found out he slept in the basement for three nights then I decided I wanted to give him another chance. He broke off all contact with her (although it took ten days to do so) and there was definitely a "mourning" period for him. The summer was great. We had lots of sex, lots of dates, he seemed happy, we made plans for the future, refinanced our house, etc. Then about a month ago he told me he was still unhappy, still didn't feel like we had a "flame" and were more like friends. Which I have a hard time believing... he really seemed happy. We've discussed separating, he keeps saying he doesn't know why he's not happy. It's either me, him, or his guilt over the affair that is holding him back. I think he's depressed and has very low self esteem but won't admit it. He keeps telling me I'm too good for him and he's always felt that way. Keeps saying I should find someone else because I deserve to be treated better. I really don't think he's seeing her again (she's back with her family) but I don't know why he's saying this stuff. I finally told him to DO SOMETHING to figure out how to be happy because I can't take it any more. He won't go back to counseling (he said it didn't work - but it was while he was still cheating on me so of course it didn't.)
    I out-earn him by quite a bit and he feels like he can't afford to move out but does think if we can get some space that maybe his feelings for me will come back. We both feel like we need to do something to "unstick us." So he's been sleeping in the basement, then left for a long vacation with a cousin that had been planned for awhile. Things have been better since he started sleeping in the basement and he's seemed to snapped out of his depression funk. He asked me if he could sleep in our bed the night before he left on his trip and we had sex. I just don't know what to do when he comes back. If he keeps putting me through this roller coaster I don't know how much longer I can stay on. What do you guys think is going on?

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    1. I think this guy is telling you the truth: he doesn't deserve you. You are too good for him.
      I would tell him that he needs to find his own place and move out. And I would urge you to get counselling yourself so you can get clear on why you're putting up with his nonsense. He's acting like a child. He married you. He cheated on you. And now he's acting like a self-absorbed idiot. YOU were the one hurt by his betrayal, but he's down in the basement feeling sorry for himself? Puh-leeze.
      Show him the door. Really. It won't be easy. It will hurt. But I'll bet you anything there's more pain in your future if you stay with him.

      Delete
  37. Where do I begin. Our 15yr old daughter who found out about her fathers affair ( which had finished 2 years prior) has gone into total meltdown. She caught me at a weak point after I had managed to hide it for a year. We both sat down and told her that it was over, no one knows and that we are staying together, we gave her the " adults make bad choices" talk and all the things our counsellor expressed to us prior to her finding out. She has decided to quit school early, has put herself on the contraceptive pill although she doesn't have a boyfriend, mixing with a bad crowd, grades have fallen, attitude is terrible. She is hurting so much and I cannot seem to reach out to her. This child has changed 100%. She did see a counsellor at school who told her " your mum should leave your dad" ...Thanks for that one counsellor! After the trauma of keeping it together and beginning to feel things may be salvageable, we now have another life affected and ruined. Jeez, affairs really are the gift that just keeps giving. ADVICE ANYONE PLEASE.

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    1. I'm so so sorry for all that you're going through. Your daughter is at a difficult age even in the best of circumstances. And I can imagine how excruciating it is for you to watch her self-destruct.
      That counsellor is a total idiot who should be fired. His/her role was to support your daughter in her pain, not dispense marital advice for her parents.
      However, I would urge you to find someone who can help your daughter, pronto. There are lots of great counsellors who deal with teens/youth and have no doubt helped others through this exact situation. Keep on trying. She can always re-take courses, etc. so don't get too wound up about her school situation. Instead, focus on helping her keep her head above water until she feels back on solid ground.
      As mom to a sixteen-year-old myself, my heart aches for you. Please keep sharing here. We know your pain.

      Delete
  38. Are you in marriage counseling together? If so, what is the counselor/therapist saying? I hope you are in individual counseling, too. It's hard to get husbands to go to counseling sometimes, but when it took mine three months to come clean, I did not give him a choice- he had to go. I recognized my situation in many of your phrases...and I will assume what you experienced this summer is common among couples who are trying to recover from an affair (my husband's was also emotional). And then it falls off for some reason. I've noticed it, and we've talked about the drop-off in sex and dates. I've told him I won't go back to the way it was before, so we have to figure out a way to get back on track. It's hard work. Maybe you're both in that post- reconnecting funk.
    I'm not sure what you need to do to get unstuck, but a good counselor or therapist could help you. I would also suspect your husband is depressed since he says much of what my husband says (but not that I should find someone else), and I think HE'S depressed. Again, a good counselor or therapist could help the two of you. My counselor and his counselor have both helped us individually; our marriage counselor not so much, so I'm looking for someone who can help. Please find someone who can help you. It's so difficult to navigate this without outside help of some kind. I hope you get unstuck soon.

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  39. My husband first got caught on July 10, 2014. He has been invoilved in an emotional affair since February. We had always gotten along really well. Few problems except finanical and he hated his job. He works in the restaurant industry and sometimes works 14 hour days and every weekend and some holidays. He has not been happy with himself for several years now. I saw a slow decline in his personalty but I never expected this. He told me he loves me but is in love with the other woman he met online. He knew of her in high school but they have only met once with her husband in tow. They facebook each other constantly. he told me they were not sexting, they were. She and he even made fun of both spouses in the chat messages I saw. He tells me he still loves me and he never intended to leave his family. Now they are supposed to meet up in November. He asked her and me not knowing asked to watch him play in a band and he said yes to me and then wavered with her. Then she broke up with him again...this makes the 4th time in 7 months. I do not know what to do. I hate watching this occur. He says he wonders what if and that he has led a life full of regrets and he doesnt want one more what if. He just keeps getting more and more distant from me. I am heartbroken. I know I need to turn my marriage over to God and fix myself but its so hard. He lies all the time now. He doesnt even respond to my text messages like he used to. Feel like I am going to lose my ability to love anything. Except my children.

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    1. Your husband's behaviour is abusive. It's cruel and self-centred and you need to remove yourself from the situation. I'm so sorry for what he's putting you through.
      Please get yourself a great counsellor and begin taking care of yourself and your needs. Get clear on why you've put up with him. He's MARRIED to you and making plans with another woman. That's so NOT okay. You should not be "watching this occur", you should be rebuilding your life without him. He doesn't deserve you.

      Delete
  40. The Oct. 29 7:37pm post was supposed to be a reply to Oct. 28 12:24pm.."Stuck here!" Sorry- I must not have hit "reply."

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  41. Hi,

    I am so glad I found this blog. I found out my husband had been having an affair for 4/5months on 9th June this year, two days after our second wedding anniversary.

    We had a hard couple of years: finding out our unborn child had kidney disease and being told he had a 25% chance of surviving the birth. Then we found out that my husband also had the disease. My little boy was born in 2013 and was in intensive care. He is doing ok at the moment as is my husband. I through myself into fundraising for the charity. Our relationship started to be strained pretty much after my little boys first birthday (feb 14). We then were told that my mother in law had cancer April 14 (she too is in remission and is doing well). I kept putting the way my husband was acting down to this.

    Turns out he was having an emotional and then physical relationship with a colleague at work, someone he is still working with. The reason he told me because her husband suspected something and was going to go into work and have it out. (They by the way are still together, she never owned up and she is nearly 5 months pregnant....do the maths....although my husband says they used a condom and it isn't his, I still worry massively, especially as the kidney disease is hereditary).

    So, we have stayed together. My husband is doing everything around the house, being a great daddy to our little boy, we have sex (I don't picture ow as much now) and he tries to be caring to me.

    My problem is I feel so much pain. I feel alone and I feel worried that I can't do this any longer. I understand time is a healer but I feel an absolute mess. Working full time, doing a management course and trying to look after my little boy is leaving me drained anyway, but I just don't know what I'm doing. Whether I'm doing the right thing, whether I should ask him to leave or try and work it out.

    I am on antidepressants, as is my husband now! We had couple counselling but the counsellor after 5 sessions said I was too strong a person and I didn't need anymore, they signed us off.

    I just don't know what to do for the best.

    Thanks to anyone who has read this to the end of my post.

    J x

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  42. Two days ago my husband asked me for permission to go out with a group of friends after work as a going away party of sorts for one of their coworkers. Over 1 year post dday he still shows me the pertinent texts, tells me where he is going, tells me I am free to just show up to check on him, etc. Of course I told him he could go.

    But that night I couldn't sleep even after he came home, which is always an indicator that something is bothering me. The next morning he said he knew it would be a problem, that I always say go out but then I'm upset afterwards. He is right, but I told him so you are never going to go out for the rest of your life. That is ridiculous; I will just have to get over it.

    Funny thing is I don't think he's doing anything now. Maybe he will in the future, maybe not. But I think the reason I get upset is that it reminds me of when he did go out, didn't tell me whom with or where he was going, sometimes but not always because it was with one of the OW. It's not that I don't trust him now. And when I am reminded I feel overcome with self-loathing: how could I not say anything, how could I " allow it", how did our relationship get to that point that all of that was ok? And then I lash out at him. But it was such a gradual development over so many years of him pushing the envelope as he put it.

    Being 1+ years past d day sometimes I feel I have made such great progress. Our relationship is definitely so much better. But days like this I really hate myself for my role, and then I hate myself even more for blaming myself for something that was not my fault.

    Sam

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    1. Sam,
      I think you two need to come up with some sort of plan around his going out. What do you need from him in order to get past this. Blaming him, blaming yourself, feeling triggered -- none of that is getting you anywhere, except stuck.
      See if you can get clear on what you need -- regular check-ins from him via phone? a moratorium on him going out for a little while? -- whatever it is, put it in place. Sometimes all we need is to see a willingness in our spouse to DO what we need. But sometimes we need more.

      Delete
  43. The worst thing you can do is believe him. Something is fishy about his story. Anytime a story doesn't make sense then there is a reason. Although my husband said on Dday he told me everything, some things about his story didn't make sense. So when I caught him lying to me to "protect" my feelings in July I knew my antenna was right. I don't think you have all information to make an informed decision. You need search the questionnaires on line - should I stay or go based on his actions now. Sometimes men are in turmoil at the beginning and not thinking straight either. What my husband said then about her and what he understands NOW is two different things. He can see NOW how he was used by her and how he just became an observer in our marriage instead of participating. He says then she was like crack, sex was good and he felt needed but he says NOW he realizes he thought I didn't love him so he had no reason to leave, a blow job is not intimate and he was selfish. It took both us time to see the reality of the situation and it may take your husband sometime to see the reality too. He is running from something that's for sure.

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  44. Whenever my children's actions were inconsistent or changing over time I took them to counseling. I got them their own counseler and only joined if I was invited to THEIR session. Your daughter may feel like it is her fault or if only she was better. At 15 you don't know because their life is in turmoil anyway. I found about my dads affair when I was in the sixth grade. I was so angry at him and never viewed him in the same light even today. I witnessed how much my mother changed from loving to destructive and insecure. I can still see her sitting in dark, playing music and crying night after night. I wish I was given the opportunity to talk about it or someone had taken me away. My aunt invited me to her house on the weekends as an escape. I need one and remember feeling grateful. I could see how much both my parents changing. Dad left mom for he OW but eventually came back. It is still hurts to this day.

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  45. To anonymous with the daughter- I thought about your situation most of the day which took me back to living through that with my parents. Here are a few more thoughts. You and your husband have changed and your daughter sees that. she needs to feel safe. You think about how much finding out rocked your world? Think about how much has changed for her too. She has to understand there is still a place for her with security and love. She is not who you two thought you were either. Take her away for a weekend, I know it is hard because you are worried about leaving your husband alone but do it for her. Let her talk about it. She still needs to know the love has not changed just the circumstances. I went stark raving wild after my parents separated Nobody cared about me or focused on me, it was all about them. I felt so alone at the time. I wish my mother had supported me better and empathized with my feelings. Your daughter has been betrayed too. Affairs had ripple effect on family members. My husband never thought of that either selfish pig. I'm going through some family shit my self from his affair. I told my husband last night we are going to have a family group session in therapy If I have to drag every one of my adult children there and he is going to listen to all their anger and shit.

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    1. Lynn Pain, Thank you for your message, sorry you had to go through this with your parents. I think I may try another counsellor for her, I think the one she had was very opinionated and made my daughter feel I was stupid for staying with her father. As a couple we have sat down and shown her that we understand that she is hurting but our love for her has never diminished and she is our number one priority. Although I haven't taken her away for the weekend I have made time for just the 2 of us. Days together in the house alone, lunches out together and generally trying to make her feel secure. My husband and I are actually getting on really well and he no longer travels or comes home late and is fully accountable. Evenings are spent with all of us together, meals are taken together. She is just so destructive to herself, just giving up on high school, no ambition and hurting. I know a lot of this is mixed with usual teenage angst and perhaps we are getting the two situations crossed as solely down to her fathers affair. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your reply.

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    2. Lynn, Thank-you so much for sharing your experience and supporting Anonymous with her daughter.
      Anonymous, I think Lynn's advice is wise. But I would also urge your husband to speak with your daughter. She needs to hear from him just how sorry he is for the pain he's caused her. She needs to know how deeply he regrets the risk he took. Kids take everything personally. She might be feeling that she wasn't "enough" to stop him from doing something that would destroy the family. And she needs to also know just how much courage it takes to give people the chance to make amends. That staying isn't weakness. And that people we love can still disappoint us but that doesn't mean we have to give up on them. That people can screw up severely but learn from it.

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  46. Things for us were looking so good for awhile, and now they are getting bad again. Frankly, my H has been very spotty about being supportive of me and I have stopped being deluded that his words without action mean anything. He thinks he is doing what he is supposed to but he isn't. When I tell him what I need (which is reinforced in all the books and reading--which he won't read) he tells me I am controlling him and not appreciating his hard work. He goes to therapy and is in a support group for sex and love addiction. Somehow, though, he isn't getting the message that he also needs to be there for me and understand the pain I have been feeling. That he needs to make it stop being about his pain.
    After a year of waiting for him to "get it", I am snapping. I am crying all day and night. I had him move out of our bedroom. His response to my depression and crying has been to get angry and see it as a threat ("you are threatening suicide to control me"-I have never threatened suicide, only that the pain hurts so much that I want to die. Very different things.) He has not stood up for me, he has barely been emotionally supportive. He has very little real empathy for me. The minute I look sad or angry, he goes the other way and shuts me down.I know all of this response has to do with his family stuff. But I am so alone and have little support.
    In private to me, our MC says that I am 100% right about the problems in the marraige, but she won't tell him that. Instead, in therapy we focus on how angry I am and getting me to stop raising my voice in the therapy office, Apparently I am the one causing a problem. Not his burying his head in the sand. I spend all hours of the day biting my tongue and swallowing my hurt, crying quietly, taking care of our family, not yelling even when he behaves like a complete a-hole. The therapists office is the one place where I feel I should be able to show how upset I am (I am not going batshit or anything. Just upset) and I am told I am the one creating a problem. So our therapist is giving my H ammo to shut me down when I am slightly upset and he continues blaming me for his behavior.
    The thing is, I am trying to take responsibility for my behavior and my actions. I am not blaming him for all the problems in our marriage--but frankly, his personal problems (adhd, impulsivity, narcissism) cause a great deal of difficulty in our relationship.
    I dont know what to do anymore.

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    Replies
    1. You are being held accountable for your actions, while he's being let off (in many ways) for his actions. Of course, you're pissed off at that.
      Addicts are notoriously self-absorbed people. Those who truly recover are generally able to develop empathy. Others, however, might get clean...but they don't really recover. It sounds as if your husband still can't face what he's done and is angry at you for not letting him pretend it wasn't so bad.
      Are you in individual therapy? You need a place to get angry, to cry, to rage...and to get support for your pain. Your emotions are completely normal. Your sense of betrayal at not only his infidelity but his refusal to do what you're asking of him to help you heal is absolutely normal.
      I think you need to lay out exactly what you need him to and make it clear it's non-negotiable. He either steps up...or faces the consequences (moving out, moving to the couch, whatever you decide). This isn't about punishing him; it's about honouring your own boundaries. You know what you need. And he's refusing to provide it. He either changes his behaviour or I think you need to move forward without him.

      Delete
  47. I have to post this as what my sister says in ah ha moment. I have my last set of STD tests tomorrow so I'm really triggering like a machine gun. Anyway I get my husband on the bed pin him down and say loudly "ok, tell me how she was better than me." I feel like I'm in competition. He says "she wasn't ". I said "give me some examples". So he did all of which made sense. He finally said "she wasn't better than you she was just a supplement, like artificial sweetener". This finally made sense to me- she just supplemented what was missing in our marriage. But he never really left me. He told the kindergarten teacher he was never going to leave me. He said she was like a sugar substitute- no nutritional value nothing. I can see this to be true finally about their relationship. it gives a little peace in my mind.

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  48. Struggling - Part 1

    Seven years ago, my husband became withdrawn and moody. We had been together for 15 years and had two kids who had barely started school, and here was my husband distancing himself from all of us. I tried to get him to open up and talk to me. Initially, I was unsuccessful, but finally, one day he sent me an email at work to inform me that he was "departing from us". I was in complete shock. That night, after the kids were in bed, I sat him down to try and get some answers. All he gave me was that he didn't love me. He started sleeping on the couch and we drew up a separation agreement. I fell apart. None of it made any sense. I suggested marriage counseling and he refused. I eventually pulled myself out of bed and I started playing detective. I discovered that he had been having an emotional affair with a childhood girlfriend that had contacted him through facebook and lived on the other side of the country. He was planning on moving there and leaving me and the kids behind. After six weeks of tears, one-sided discussions by me, and lots of "no strings attached" sex, he informed me that he was willing to stay and try to make things work. After he recommitted to the marriage, one night when I had had too much to drink, I told him I knew about the affair. He initially acted like he had no idea what I was talking about, but finally acknowledged that he was busted. We had one "discovery" conversation, went on a "second honeymoon", and started going out on "dates" again. He was remorseful, and things seemed to be on the right track. I felt like we had really dodged a huge bullet. He made a lot of promises and I took him at his word. I never checked up on him. For the first 2 or 3 years, I would occasionally check in with him to make sure that he was still happy that he had stayed and to confirm that he could talk to me about anything. I had asked him to get introspective with himself to figure out the "why" and he agreed. I worried that he would think I would never stop bringing it up, so I eventually let it go and never really did get that "why" conversation that I so desperately needed. Fast forward six years, and my husband began exhibiting the same withdrawn behaviour. He wasn't interested in talking to me about what was bothering him - he would just say that he was frustrated at work. He wasn't interested in participating in family activities or going on dates with me. He would consistently turn me down for sex and then when he finally gave in, he was completely disengaged. I did everything. He didn't so much as touch or even kiss me. It was like he was waiting for me to get off of him so he could roll over to his side of the bed. I went into detective mode again, fully expecting to find that he was having another emotional affair - either with the same woman or perhaps even someone new. It took a lot longer than I expected to get concrete proof of anything, even though I was closely monitoring my husband physically. Everything electronic was password protected, and I am not exactly tech-savvy. While I was still trying to get proof so that I could confront him, he went to a mountain resort for a "work retreat". When he came back, it was all over his face. It had become sexual. Although in my heart I knew, I was still so desperately trying to hang on to the denial. He wouldn't do that! Not again! Not after what he put me through last time! And certainly he wouldn't actually get NAKED with another woman! That's not the man I married, not the man I fell in love with when I was just a child, and not the man I had spent the last 22 years sharing my life with! I had to be wrong. There had to be some other explanation.

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  49. Struggling - Part 2

    Three weeks later, after spending every night trying different passcodes to get into his phone, I finally got in. And my world was completely destroyed. I had more "proof" than I needed. I went completely numb and managed to hold it together in front of him and the kids. I took a couple of days trying to figure out what I wanted to do before I confronted him. We had a family vacation coming up and I didn't want to ruin it for the kids. When I couldn't hold it in any longer, I sat my husband down and told him that I knew and that this was his opportunity to regain some integrity and credibility. He said very little. He acknowledged it, justified it, then completely shut down. I told him I would give him some time to figure out what he wanted to do, but I wasn't willing to be in a marriage where I was expected to share. I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't eating. My job was suffering. But I managed to hold it together in front of the kids. He continued to see HER and he continued to lie to me about it. Eventually, he ended it, but he didn't even bother to tell me. He says he was trying to avoid the whole thing and just hoped it would all go away. About three weeks after he ended it, he advised me that he was committed to making it work. Another three weeks after that, he finally sat down with me to "come clean". Two very difficult things came out of this conversation. First, he was still lying to me. I had stayed up all night that first night reading the texts and emails between the two of them, and there were some very obvious lies and other, more subtle ones. When I told him I knew he was lying, he came "clean" on a couple of things and said he was having a difficult time acknowledging just how badly he screwed up. The second difficult thing that came out of that conversation was how he met HER. He had purchased a membership on a cheating website that guaranteed discrete affairs (several months before - shortly after our last wedding anniversary). He had talked to several women, and had even met with another woman before finally selecting HER as the one he was willing to throw away everything for. He sought this out! He "auditioned" women! He says he selected her to pursue because they had a lot in common - they were the same age, she was married with kids and liked sports. Huh? That's all you've got?? It was at that point that I finally let him see me fall apart. My husband has never been very good at expressing emotion. I have only seen him cry twice in the 30 years that I have known him - each time was after the death of a very close family member. He has been extremely remorseful, and although it took a while, he has even apologized this time - many times. He is riddled with guilt and says he doesn't know if he will ever be able to forgive himself for what he's done. He has made the same promises and claims that he made last time and has truly taken some strides to follow through on them. He has taken the passcode protection off his phone, stays logged in to his email and facebook so that I can easily check on him when I feel the need to, he has installed a GPS tracker on his phone so that I can verify that he is where he says he is. He listens to me express the pain that he has put me through. He holds me when I cry, asks me daily how I'm doing, and fully accepts that it will take a long time for me to get "through" this. He has done a lot of reading about affairs and relationships and is actually making an effort to try to understand himself. He promptly got tested for STDs when I told him that issue was non-negotiable (negative BTW). We've gone through hysterical bonding. Panic mode is over. But the one year mark is coming up in 3 months and I'm dreading it already. The entire calendar is full of triggers for me, not to mention all the other ones (some expected, others not so much) that I deal with every single day.

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  50. Struggling - Part 3

    Our kids have absolutely no clue and that was the only thing initially that made me willing to fight for my marriage. I was willing to do anything to spare them that pain. Before my husband started cutting out of family events to be with HER, he was an exceptional father. I couldn't take that away from my kids. But now that the numbness is gone, and I am actually dealing with all the pain and the grief and the resentment, it's getting so much harder. It doesn't feel like I actually made a choice to stay married. It feels like the decision was made for me. There really wasn't any other option. I don't have to stay for economic reasons. Although certainly divorce would affect me financially, I make more than my husband does and so I'm not dependent on him in that respect. But the kids would probably lose their home, possibly end up in a different school, away from their friends, and the stability of the life that they have always known. I meant my wedding vows when I said them, and feel like I need to follow through on those promises even when he didn't. So I put on a determined face, and try to figure this out. My husband has always been a "the grass is greener" kind of guy when it came to homes, jobs, cell phones, etc. But I thought I was the one constant in his life, the one thing that gave him any stability. There are times when I love my husband so much and will do anything to make this work. Other times, I'm simply exhausted and indifferent. Still other times, I suddenly get this "he ACTUALLY had sex with someone else" moment and feel physically ill - I can't even look at him, because all I feel is disgust. He did about a half dozen "email therapy sessions" with a counsellor. It appears these sessions consisted of the counsellor congratulating my husband on his insight surrounding his lack of communication skills, and encouraging my husband to share with me and stay emotionally connected with me. It is not "infidelity specific" therapy. Myself, I attended two infidelity support meetings. Those were the only times I have shared my story before today. It took a long time for my family to forgive my husband for what he put me through seven years ago, and they were never aware that there was another woman involved. This time, I immediately made the decision to protect my husband by not sharing this information with anyone unless the marriage simply couldn't be saved. But I feel so alone and the only person I turn to is my husband. I do a lot more talking than listening during our "conversations". He has been trying to share his thoughts and feelings with me, but he often just says "I don't know what to say" or calls himself an idiot and then shuts down.

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  51. Struggling - Part 4

    Part of my need to stay silent is my own need to not feel like a failure. My parents haven't always been happy, but they have persevered and will be celebrating 45 years of marriage. Part of my struggle is with thinking I must have zero intelligence, zero self-esteem, and zero self-respect to be willing to give him a third chance to get it right. Another part of my struggle is that I don't feel like I have the whole truth. I received trickle truth, discovery of more lies and secrecy, and some of what I read on his phone still doesn't match up with the story that he has given me, although I don't have concrete proof of more deception. I do believe that he has ended it, that he understands it was all a fantasy - an "escape", that he never wants to hurt me like this again, and that he wants to be a better man and a better husband. He's doing everything he can to prove that to me. But I have this overwhelming fear that he will do it again - we've been here before and this was still a complete blindside for me. I've read a lot about forgiveness and about making amends. It seems like "making amends" is simply about being the husband he was supposed to be all along. There is no restitution, no justice, no fairness. I try to act loving even when I don't feel it, but I don't always succeed. It feels like he is being rewarded for bad behaviour. And as for forgiveness, I have serious doubts as to whether I will ever get there. That's something I have always struggled with, but intentionally pushing me away and actively seeking out an affair knowing what I went through last time and the promises that he made to me then, seems soooo unforgiveable. And underneath all of this, I feel an obligation to share what I know with this woman's husband, but at the same time, I don't want to be the bearer of the news. I know how much it hurts. Please help! I'm definitely stuck...

    Struggling Mom

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    1. Struggling Mom,
      You have a whole lot of reasons to be completely furious with him. And it's no wonder that you're fearful this will happen again. It DID happen again. Too often, I think, we try to override our logical brains.
      You clearly need a whole lot more from him. The phone counselling is bullshit, I think. He needs to see someone regularly to uncover what he was thinking that allowed him to do this to not only you but his children. The first time AND the second time.
      In the meantime, I think you've got a whole lot of emotions to process yourself. Are you in counselling? A year out, especially when you've gone through this before, isn't actually so long. It takes 2 - 5 years, say most experts, to truly feel "healed" from such betrayal.
      I would also urge you to find someone in your life with whom you can confide (along with a counsellor). Do you have any close friends who could listen without judgement? A sibling? You need support. You sound like someone who's accustomed to doing for everyone. It's your time to be taken care of. To be nurtured. To be allowed to cry and rage and vent and exorcise all that pain.
      You'll either begin to see genuine change in your husband...or not. Either way, it can make your path forward more clear. And you'll also get clearer on what you can forgive or accept and what you simply can't. There is no right or wrong. Even if he embraces therapy and becomes a model husband doesn't mean you're required to stay with him. YOU get to determine where you go from here. Please give yourself some time, space and counselling to figure out where you want to go.

      Delete
    2. Struggling Mom here. Initially, I was very angry. I plotted different things that I could do to try to hurt him as badly as he had hurt me. But I've realized that's not even possible. By the time I felt it was "safe" to express my anger to him, my anger had turned into grief. I haven't so much as raised my voice to him. (Although that's not really how I generally operate any way.) Even when I tell him that I'm "mad", it comes out in tears... At first, I was so thankful and proud of my husband for taking the initiative to get some counselling (after I had had a particularly difficult day). He had outright refused to even consider it the last time. He didn't want to air our "dirty laundry", and the emotional affair was so out of character for him that I believed that he had learned something from that experience and would never cross that line again. Although I went through the initial "stalking" stage again this time (including going to her home and to her office) so that I could learn as much about HER as I possibly could (and was quite disgusted to learn that she has a background in marriage and family counselling), I've come to accept that my husband's choices have nothing to do with HER. They don't even have anything to do with me or our marriage. I told him that in terms of threats to our marriage, any woman with a laptop and no moral compass is a threat. The only man that is a threat to our marriage is my husband. I've expressed my concern to him that his "email therapy" just isn't enough. Not enough for him, and certainly not enough for me to feel safe. We're looking at some alternatives. Through my employment, I get three free counselling sessions. I've come close many times to making that phone call, but ultimately I wanted to see how the "email therapy" would progress, because I may need to save those sessions for my husband. Him getting the treatment he needs in order to figure out what is "broken" inside him will ultimately benefit me moving forward. My whole life has become centered around my family, both immediate and extended. When I finally got the proof I needed, I also came to the realization that I no longer had any close friends that I could confide in. There was no one I could call. No one with whom I had a close enough relationship to lay such a mess at their feet in search of support. I had always relied on my husband and my family for that. In my job, I have interactions with battered women. Although I understand the psychology behind why they stay in abusive relationships, it has always been difficult to truly empathize and "understand". I get it now. The conflict between heart and head can be overwhelming. I told my husband that I would have preferred it if he had just beat the crap out of me instead of having sex with someone else. He was horrified at that thought because he "could never do that to me"... Maybe he gets it now. I know I need more from him, but I just don't know what to ask for.

      Delete
    3. I think you should use your three sessions for yourself so that you can get clear on what to ask for. What I think you need is acknowledgement of just how deeply he has hurt you -- a genuine recognition of that pain. And then an understanding from him for how lucky he has always been to have you in his life and that your loyalty needs to be rewarded by him doing everything he can to earn it. But that's just my thinking. I hope you'll take the chance to find out yourself.

      Delete
  52. Wow, Lynn. That is an interesting metaphor, and I can see how it would be a comfort to finally understand the limit of that relationship that your husband had, and how he realizes that something with "no nutritional value" isn't what he needs. My husband compared himself to a heroin addict with his affair partner, during his "summer of clarity". Apparently, this addiction is something he doesn't want to break, and after all the hurt and destruction he has already caused, he is moving in with her.

    How can a person achieve self-awareness and clarity about what they want in life, and then throw away that self-awareness? None of this makes sense to me.

    Thanks to his throwing in the towel NOW after over a year of recovery since I found out about the affair, I feel as if I am going through the entire trauma all over again. I am back at square 1. Which is the worst place to be. I am back to the emotional see-saw and the anger and the desire for revenge (which I won't actually seek, of course).

    Argh. I hate it here.

    Jen from Ohio

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    1. Jen,
      I know it feels as if you're back at square one but you're not. You've learned a lot, not least of which is that you're incredibly strong and can survive one of the worst betrayals life can throw at us. You will get through this. He just spared you years of more pain.
      Good riddance to him and his "addiction". Focus on how you're going to ensure that the rest of your life is filled with people who are fabulous and deserving of all you have to offer. But first, let yourself cry, scream, eat tubs of ice cream. You won't stay there forever.

      Delete
  53. I am 17 months past D-day and still feel so stuck at times. I think I am still mourning the life before this happened. I have also fallen into my own trap of resentment towards the OW. I obsess and check her Facebook page to make sure she is not in anyway connected to my life. I can't seem to stop this painful habit. My husband and I were together for 25 years when he had his affair with a 24 year old. A week after D-day he almost died and had open heart surgery. I think all of that delayed my healing and caused greater resentment. I was the one at the hospital with him for 7 days straight, cleaning his a**. Also our grown children immediately forgave him during this crisis. I didn't want them to never forgive him but it all felt like he got off too easy. Thanks for the venting.

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    1. Step number one is STOP the FB stalking. This woman is just a toxic reminder of your husband's poor boundaries. Don't give her any more real estate in your brain.
      And then focus on your resentment and do what you can to exorcise it. It's your husband you're pissed at...and who probably deserves it. Of course, you're angry. Figure out what's going on that you can change. And what you need him to change. Maybe you don't want to rebuild your marriage -- which is perfectly okay. Maybe he's not pulling his weight. But whatever it is, don't let it fester.

      Delete
  54. Thanks Elle,
    Most days are much better. I have to learn how to stay away from FB. I do well a few days and then I fall of the wagon. We are doing our best at putting our marriage back together. Just the good, the bad and ugly of it get overwhelming on days. We have been through counseling, Retrouvaille, you name it. I do love him very much and see he is trying very hard to show me his love. Just the anger of it. It doesn't help I guess that only him, OW, myself and our children know what he has done. So I have no support. I am ashamed, and my family lives 900 miles away. Also if I were to open up to them then I do not feel they could ever forgive him which would alienate me even more. I don't have any close girlfriends as I have spent our marriage devoting myself to him and the kids. I think I need a place to vent and scream on the hard days. Also to grieve and learn to accept that though our life has moved forward and we have overcome so much, I will never have that blissful and blind trust. I have to learn a new way of trust and get my self over this bump.
    Thanks again, Lisa

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  55. I can't stay way from FB either, don't have much support except on the phone with my sister. Here is what I have tried to channel the anger and hurt when I get overwhelmed. I tell my therapist but she doesn't say to stop. One day I started with one post it note on how I felt then as the week went on everytime that feeling comes and you know the feelings I mean I put up another post it note. So I put a post it note up for every month he made a choice so the post it notes were in the shape of a big heart since there was 27 months. Then I lined top of the wall with 27 post it notes for everytime they were intimate. Before the week was out the walls were covered. Then I asked him to take it all down, which he did and threw it away. So I figure out ways to scream without actually verbally screaming all the time. I may drive to an empty parking lot in my car and just sit there and cry but I don't tell him where I'm going and he worries. I copied her picture from FB a really ugly one and sent it to him in a text message and said something nasty. I take the dog for a long walk and cry. I try to do something to get it out of my system because I know if I physically abuse him, which I feel like doing, is destructive to our marriage. The whole mess is overwhelming but the worst think in my life has already happened to me so there is nothing else that can happen to me or I can do that even phases me anymore. I just need a nonviolent outlet sometimes. I don't even think this shit up before I get started on my relief projects , I just do whatever at the time to take the pain away even for a short time.

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  56. What helps me is writing. I email myself all the awful sarcastic things in my head. It helps me get it out. Sometimes days later I re read it, tone it down, & email it to him so he can get a glimpse into my head. Sometimes months later I re read & feel like I've made so much progress.

    I also have resumed hobbies to distract me. I started learning piano & have a renewed passion for reading. I have resumed my crochet & actually started teaching my daughter.

    Just today I made a list of goals or myself, things for me I would like to make time for: exercising, taking a cooking class, taking a painting class, spending more time talking to my sibs on the phone, taking yoga classes, incorporating just 10 min of peaceful breathing every day into my schedule. I don't have time for most of this now but as my kids get older I plan to add on 1 new thing per year maybe.

    As I looked at my list I thought to myself interesting how not one item has anything to do with my husband or kids. Also, no where did I say have sex with more people to feel fulfilled as a person. I agree with Peggy Vaughn that society impresses in men how important that is. I'm not blaming society but I'm sure that is up there on most men's bucket list.

    Sam

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  57. Hi. Been reading this blog since D day 8 months ago.
    Thanks Elle. (From Canadian woman)it has helped.
    In the 8 months since d day my wayward husband and I have been doing all the do things. Sllllooowwwwlllyyy recovering.
    Yesterday out of the blue, the OW texted him. He shared it immediately. Her number had been blocked but now she has a new number. She texted that she was aware he loved her, missed her, had thought about her daily, and was just confused. We called the number to ensure it was her. On speaker phone when she confirmed, I told her to not contact again or we would press harassment charges. Then we hung up.
    Today husband went to police and made an occurance report. Asked them to go talk to her to tell her to stop contact.
    In a way this feels good for me, finally sort of getting her back by involving police.(vindictive? Nahhh... Just human)
    But how sick does someone have to be to do what she's doing? It was physical only, no kissing even, 5 encounters in her car of all things, and not of any duration.
    She was told no more contact in many ways one of which was a hand written letter part by him, part by me then mailed to her.
    How does a middle aged woman turn that into you love me and miss me 8 months later?
    Its all so sad.
    She's just a wounded human.....acting out in such a messy way.....
    So is my husband. Maybe the police visit will be a wake up call that helps her find the recovery that my husband and I seem to be finding.
    Sad, sad, sad. All the fallout on so many levels due to poor poor choices.

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    1. tynsel,
      You in no way sound vindictive. But I would enjoy sending the police to have a chat with the OW. Hopefully she gets the message, and your husband has a reminder how pathetic she is. Hold your head high and keep on with recovery! Best wishes, Lisa

      Delete
    2. Tynsel,
      I'm a Canadian woman myself. Glad the community here is helping!
      And you answered your own question re. the OW: She's a lonely person searching outside of herself for what's missing inside herself. Sad indeed.

      Delete
  58. I am coming up to the first anniversary of my second DDay. DDay one is just over two years ago. My husband's affairs were both with the same ex girlfriend he broke up with to be with me 34 years ago. Although I found out about his second affair in Sept. 2012 he didn't tell me about the earlier one for just over a year later. There was also continued phone contact between the two affairs which lasted 18 years. She is married but has no children and lives about 400 miles away from us. When we returned from vacation a couple of weeks ago I caught up my FB page and was horrified to find that she had attended an event run by friends of ours, they know nothing of the affairs or contact but hadn't actually invited her. If we hadn't been away we would have been there too. My husband could see I felt very threatened by this and he was shocked she would attend. Her presence must have been an attempt at a confrontation as she has tried to resuscitate their contact before and my husband has been honest and informed me each time. I do not know what my reaction to seeing her would have been, probably flight but perhaps fight. Her husband does not know of her affairs although they did get married during this time. He is older and in poor health and I have not informed him what he has married. However I do have a letter prepared and ready to send that I have promised myself I will post if she continues to try to reactivate the affair. My quandary now is do I send it? I admit that I am seeing this as revenge.

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    1. I think it's wise to steer clear of game playing. I would have your husband make it clear to her, if she attempts any sort of contact, that if she continues, he and you will file harassment charges against her. Make sure that it's been made clear to her already that there is to be absolutely NO contact. Don't make threats about contacting her husband. Simply state "No contact." If she violates that, then take steps to file charges. She needs to get the message loud and clear. Your motivation is to protect yourself, not hurt her.

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  59. The OW called his cell phone. He never thought she would call. The call lasted one minute. He told her she almost ruined his life and he never wanted to talk to her. Then she called our home and we had the number blocked. She has driven by our house twice to see if he is outside. Our therapist said no contact. It is like a child who is in bed and craves attention regardless whether it is positive or negative. So there has been no contact at all. Our therapist saysusual behavior is there is a flutter of activity every few months then will eventually stop when she realizes no one cares enough to contact her. It upsets us both. She is pathetic and whining. Truly a pitiful creature. I do not feel sorry for her in the least.

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    1. It is sad but it's a situation she chose. Her problem, not yours. Stay focussed on your marriage and keep up the No Contact.

      Delete
  60. I wish we all lived near each other so we could meet up. No one understands what we are going through unless you have been through it yourself.
    Its a lonely path. No one wants to talk, everyone expects you to just move on...he made a mistake. No one seems to understand feelings!

    I feel like my brain has been messed with. the things he said they done when I first found out. And now he says it was all to 'shut me up'! He told me what I expected to hear. I feel he has serious issues for what he has put me through. drip drip drip information over 19 months. I don't know the truth!

    I've seen two counselors but never helped. I feel lost.

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    1. You might feel lost, Jane, but we're all right here to remind you that you're not. I think a good counsellor is worth his/her weight in gold, but in the absence of that, there are a good many great books (and sites!) to help provide you support. I would urge you, however, to keep looking for a good therapist. I'm curious: why did you feel they didn't help you?

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  61. After a self-loathing slip yesterday, I'd just like to know if the underlying anger ever goes away. It's always there and doesn't take much to bring it to the surface- I don't throw fits like I used to, but I feel the anger more than express it.

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    1. Anger masks hurt and fear. In order to exorcise the anger, you need to deal with the underlying emotions. Once you've worked through the hurt and fear, you'll find you feel somewhat exhausted. But that the anger has dissipated.

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    2. Thanks, Elle. I know I've still got a lot of hurt to work through. It hasn't been that long since D-day (7-8 months). I'd like to get through this, though. I keep feeling as though I've wasted so much time on this stupid thing my husband did....I just want to get through and end it and put it away, if you know what I mean.

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    3. I know EXACTLY what you mean. That day will come.

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  62. Hi Jane Williams and all Ladies,
    Do you really feel that you need to know all the details? I find that my husbad actually does not remember certain things, how he behaved, what he said the moment when I found out. I know details - but I'm sure not all..the thing is that after some time, I actually hate those details that I know, since they are putting me down. Knowing more will just put me down even more - do I really need this? The truth is that my husband had an affair. Do I need to know where did they go, what did they eat? No. I do not need to know that. I Have some much anger sometimes and then the other day I feel down and want to cry somewhere in the corner..but keep thinking that it was not about me..I'm the strong one..even if I do not feel like that most of the time now. Every marriage has issues, it is never rosy all the time...but at least I can keep my head up, as I did not betray the person who I promised to love and cheris till death do us part. I kept my promise, and he did not. I'm the strong one. And now, I've decided that I'm not going to lower myself to even think about the creature who wanted to have what I have. Not going to think about what she did have that I didn't - cause the only answer to that question is - my husband. Those are sad creatures, who are lacking something in their lives and go out to look for that somewhere else - sadly they mess other people lives on the way. I do not agree to that. So I told myself, that I will try very hard not to think about this creature, since she is simply not worth it.
    Empty

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    1. To jane,

      I agree with empty completely. There are many details my h doesn't remember, esp from the 1st affair which was 10 years ago. I have almost given up asking. He can't even tell me when it started. He doesn't remember if it was before I became pregnant with our 1st child or after. But I try to look at that in a good light: 1. It really was not important enough in his mind for him to remember each & every detail & 2. He feels so bad about what he did that he doesn't want to remember.

      I also agree that some of the details I do know I wish I didn't because it just adds to the # of triggers I have.

      To be honest, I don't even know how many of the affairs were sexual. Both that he admitted to were only after I found irrefutable evidence. There are more that he says were emotional & texting but I have my doubts. But as I've said before, it doesn't really matter at this point. Once I knew about the second it changed my whole outlook. Now I KNEW the problem wasn't me & I knew none of them were special. They came & went but I was still here. & once they have sex once or tell someone else I love you or I want to have sex w u it doesn't matter if it's once or a thousand times. It's still a betrayal.

      Good luck jane. I'm rooting for u.

      Sam

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    2. Empty,
      You're absolutely right and it's an important pivot point on your journey toward healing. Recognizing that the OW is really just a convenient distraction can change how you move forward. It allows you to focus on your own healing.

      Delete
  63. Hi Anonymous, thanks for that. I understand what your'e saying. Its torture not knowing things and yet when you find out its also torture!
    The thing is with me, He told me at the beginning that they had sex once then he said it wasn't true and that they didn't! In that case yes I need to know. In fact I should have been told the complete true story back in April 12th 2013. He wants me to trust him again. That's hard when he can't tell the truth on whether or not he had sex. that's the one most biggest thing in a relationship surely.
    If its true, can he live for the rest of our lives lying. If its not true, how and why could he have told such a lie. At a time I was on the floor, distraught so sad he decided to make the story worse! WHY! How am I ever going to know the truth?

    They both knew it wouldn't go anywhere, they were both married. Selfish people

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    Replies
    1. Have you considered asking him to submit to a lie detector? I know of a number of women who insist on that before moving forward.
      I wonder, however, if your husband's flip-flopping is emblematic of a bigger problem. Does he frequently lie, even little "white lies"? Does he struggle with fear of your disapproval or dislike? Is he crazy? (I'm only half-joking with that last one).

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  64. My husband and I began to go to MC a little over a month ago because I suspected he was cheating. I had no proof, but had intuition for years.... About 3 weeks ago while in therapy, I had stated that I could not move forward because I felt that I was being asked to forgive and move past something that I did not really have the details of. He disclosed in therapy, after a lot of prompting from our MC that he slept with a mutual friend of ours multiple times over the past 3 years... Once we were home he admitted to having 2 other affairs with women (1 was our babysitter) during that same time frame. He also admitted to cheating with 2 other women in addition to the first mutual friend before we were married about 7 years ago.... I have been through many emotions over the past few weeks. Mostly angry and hurt. I have been seeing our therapist alone, he had been seeing our therapist alone twice a week, and we have been doing joint visits about 1-2 times a week. He seems really remorseful and is putting a full effort into trying to work on our marriage. He has changed his number, we have a joint email, and have no social media. I feel like a fool for staying with him, he has cheated on me more than he has been faithful. However he seems open to giving me details, he was not caught red handed but after 7 years finally admitted to his affairs. He has gotten a full STD screening with printed results for my viewing and has been complying with all of my requests. He says he never spent money on them, never loved them, never went on a date with them, and never laid in bed or had "intimate" sex with them. We have 2 children and I am not ready for divorce and separation. We have a good relationship, if the cheating and porn were not there. I can't talk to anyone about this because I am embarrassed by his actions and I feel weak and foolish for staying... Although I am an emotional wreck, I feel like we have really made some progress over the past few weeks with the therapy. I just wish there was a magic ball and I knew if this would be the last time I would have to deal with this. I hurt so much, I don't want to have to go through it again. I feel so confused with my thoughts and I feel like I am forced to choose between two poor choices. 1. Stay with the man who has intermittently had multiple sex affairs over the relationship or 2. Break up my family and disrupt my children's lives, friendships, sports, schooling, and living situations..., of course I'm going to try to make choice 1 work... I just hope he truly loves me and is committed to fixing out marriage as much as he says... It would be rude and disheartening for him to do this to me again, right???

    Broken hearted wife

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    1. Dear broken hearted wife,

      Please read the monogamy myth. You can get it from amazon. Also read any articles and other books by Peggy Vaughn which u can download for free off the internet. Her husband had over 10 affairs over a 10 year period & it seems like his reason ultimately was just the thrill of the chase, having been sexually inexperienced before. That, & all his coworkers did it. He finally confessed on his own because he decided he didn't want to be dishonest with his wife anymore. & according to both of them, they were both faithful for the next 30+ years of marriage.

      I too wish I had a crystal ball. Yes u & I both have to work on our marriages but our multiple affair husbands have to work on themselves.

      Please keep posting. Ur story sounds a lot like mine. So far my husband has remained faithful (at least as far as I know; lol)

      Sam

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    2. Broken-hearted wife (which is pretty much all of us),
      I well remember that feeling of having to choose between two awful choices. Stay with a man who had cheated our entire relationship, or uproot my three kids (one of whom struggles with anxiety) and rebuild a life without him. Ugh. So unfair when I had honored my own vows.
      I chose crappy option #1. And now, eight years later, I'm with a man who's faithful, far more invested in his family, a wonderful father and a great partner. Did I know it would turn out this way? Of course not. Does it turn out this way for everyone who chooses to stay? Of course not. What worked in our favor was my husband's commitment to get himself sorted out, his total transparency, and his support of me in my own healing.
      My advice is to generally give yourself some time to get clear. Don't make a choice from a place of hurt or fear. Don't react. When the time comes, make an intentional choice.
      In the meantime, focus on your own healing and leave him to focus on his. Give yourself the space for self-care. To get yourself strong and able to be present for your kids.
      No matter the outcome, you'll come through this just fine if you make your own healing your absolute priority.

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    3. Hi Elle when you mean complete transparency what exactly do you mean, and was your husband willing to do everything the moment you asked him to or was he reluctant at first? Few months after my DD I notice that my husband actually started seeing certain things, the moment I found out he did not want to talk about it at all...he would get angry at me for asking...he would want to leave it behind us and not to talk about it. Is it normal that cheater does not want to "cooperate" - one would think that they would be supportive to start with willing to explain everything, and respond to all questions...but in reality it's a completely different story

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    4. A lot of men who are "outed" are still in the affair fog. They've convinced themselves that their wives are the enemy and the affair partner "understands" them. It can take a while for them to pull their head out of their ass.
      Sounds as if your husband is now able to see the affair for what it was -- escape/fantasy. Given how long he was cheating, it seems as if he was using the affairs/sex as a way of self-medicating. Using it to distract him from feelings that he wasn't emotionally capable of handling. Is he a sex or love addict? Might be worth exploring.
      In any case, if he wants to rebuild his marriage, he can't get angry with you for needing to talk about it. Your healing has to become the most important thing and he needs to support you in whatever (healthy) way that means.
      So...the short answer is "yes", often the cheater doesn't want to cooperate. However, you should be able to see them pull themselves out of the fog and focus on their own issues while supporting your healing in order to stay in the marriage.

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    5. Hi Elle, but was your husband willing to talk about it all straight away - mine seems to be ashamed so much of what he did that once we talk about certain things once, he gets upset when I want to revisit or ask the same question. He has problems talking about his feelings - I know that, and he seems lost and kind of not really understanding what he did himself. How long does it "normally" take for a cheater to pull themselves out of the fog? My dd was 6 months ago...I see a huge improvement, however one day we take one step forward and then another one we move backwards...is this normal? He had always have difficulties to talk about problems..so I thinkt that this is something that is making this situation difficult for him to. Not to mention difficult for me.

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    6. Sounds like you're rolling a stone uphill, given his reluctance to talk about problems in any case, let alone when they trigger deep shame and remorse in him. I'm attaching a link to a post I wrote awhile back. It IS hard for many of these guys to talk about what they did. It does trigger deep shame. But that's a clue that there's shame there that needs to be talked about. By not exorcising the feelings that drove him to cheat in the first place, he's more likely to fall into that trap again. He doesn't need to share it with you -- in fact, I would recommend he talk about it with a therapist who can help him tap into all that stuff that he doesn't want to talk about it in a safe, non-judgemental place. What we won't look at exerts huge power over us.
      In the meantime, perhaps he'll read this:
      http://betrayedwivesclub.blogspot.ca/2014/04/my-letter-to-husbands-just-talk-about.html

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    7. This is exactly how it feels - rolling a stone uphill...thank you for understanding. I also know that he normally needs time to think things through...maybe what I'm doing is not right...maybe I'm asking stuff too often, even when we are having a nice time, and then it seems like all we do is talk, or I'm upset, and then he worries that I'm upset and there's our private vicious circle- do you know what I mean. I also try very hard not to say nasty things that sometimes are just so willing to get out of my mouth - but deep inside I know that the moment I let them out, I will regret since I'm not like that.

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    8. I implemented the 24 hour rule. Before asking (again) for information or confirmation or whatever, I would make myself wait 24 hours. If I still wanted/needed to know, I would ask. Usually (always?) however, I forgot what the original question even was.

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    9. Thank you Elle - I will try this. And how did you and your husband cope. Was he willing to cooperate straight away, to answer your questions. I actually do not know when exactly it all started. I only had feelings that then turned in reality. Now I think that I do not really need to know when exactly it started. I know it happened. That should be enough.

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  65. I did mention a lie detector on here before, asking if anyone had any experience? I have mentioned to him and he has said yes, but has also said they don't work. I have a gut feeling sometimes that he talks to someone on the matters of his affair! (Things that I bring up and then the next time he has a opinion on)! Although he has no one, I'm not sure maybe because I ignored the signs before, but I do have a little niggle.
    I think he had a tough up bringing. I think his parents were very strict and he learnt early to lie out of problems. He's the only child and both he's parents died early. Another thing I've never understood. Why would he not want to wrap us up in cotton wool!! Were all he has. And why did he allow the affair to spoil the birth of our first Grandchild? I found out 6 days after he was born weighing 4 and half pounds 7 weeks premature!!!

    Fear of my disapproval or dislike? He had an affair? Crazy? think that's me now ;-)

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    1. Jane,
      It sounds as if there's a whole lot of unacknowledged pain in your pain. And the thing with pain and wounds, they will make themselves known in one way or another. You're applying logic to an illogical situation. (ie. why wouldn't he protect his intact and warm family). That's for him to figure out and that's the work of recovering from affairs, whether you're the cheater or the cheatee.
      Would a lie detector make you feel better? If so, go for it. If it won't make much difference, then figure out what would help.

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    2. To jane,

      I agree with Elle. U might have something keeping u stuck. And it may not really have to do with the affair directly. In my case as Elle has pointed out repeatedly a lot of my anger & resentment toward my husband had nothing to do with the affairs but my feeling like I was less important & not appreciated. I find myself being triggered not by reminders of the affairs & the ow but whenever I feel like I'm being lied to or disrespected somehow. I also pick fights with my husband when he goes out or complains about having to go out.

      Recently however I did something different. He was complaining that he would rather stay home w us & have a home cooked meal than go out w his Hosp colleagues & I just sighed. He asked what don't I believe him? I said no I believe u but I wish I had that problem. Later that day when we were discussing our weekend plans he suggested going to lunch out on Saturday with the kids while we shop, something we rarely do. Even if we end up not doing it, just the fact that he suggested it to make me feel better speaks volumes. I am important to him, my feelings are important, & he wants to help me feel better.

      Try to see if there is a pattern of when u r triggered or pick fights. Or come to this site when ur stuck & maybe someone else can help u figure it out. I felt like I was triggered by my husband going out while I was stuck home with the kids but honestly until Elle really pointed it out to me in black & white & I read her responses I don't think I really understood how it was keeping me stuck.

      Good luck jane, and I wish we could all meet up for lunch once a week & talk.

      Sam

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  66. Hi Ladies,
    I could use some advice. It is 18months since DDay. My husband still works with the OW and I am not comfortable with it. He hasn't had contact with her, other than in office meetings. She has not contacted him, that I know of, since she had him come to her office this past Feb to ask him who in the office knew about their affair. Myself and my children don't go to his office anymore because I am uncomfortable with the possibility of being near her. I hate her. His office hosted a family friendly event in Oct. My husband and his department were the only people to work the event and his band was to play the event. She , eventhough she is in another department, decided to work the event. I went, with my head held high and looked in her direction often. She looked very uncomfortable. I learned a mutual friend of ours had asked her to work the event. Turns out they are very good friends now. (No one really knows about this affair) My husband's work has a global event in Feb. He really wants me to go. SHE will be there. She has infiltrated our old friend group at work. The one couple in the group that do know about the affair try their best to avoid her, however know one else knows. I am aftraid she and I may end up getting pulled into the same group for small amounts of time. She makes me sick. Last we heard she is not sorry about what she did. She does not think it is even part of her fault that when my daughter found out about the affair it plummeted her into a scary depression. The OW does know she is number 8 in my husband affair line. She does not know that thanks to the affair with her and lots of counseling my husband was diagnosed with manic bipolar and hyper sexuality. He is on medication for it. I just don't know how to work through the fact that they work in the same building. We can't go to xmas parties and other things because of her being there. She makes me so angry. I don't know if I can go to the event in Feb. My kids want to go. It is very family friendly, except for the adulteress. Does anyone have any suggestions? This is really weighing on me. I hate that my feelings for her are effecting what I feel I can and cannot do. Being near her gives me such a mix of anxiety and anger.
    Thanks in advance for the help.

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    1. I was in a similar situation for the few months following my husband's affair. His OW had been his assistant and though she was eventually let go, there was a few months of overlap.
      A friend of mine who worked in the same office became my protector. She always ensured me she had my back. She reminded me that I could hold my head high. She helped me see that the OW clearly had issues (my husband was not her first married man). It didn't make it easy. But it made it tolerable. And given that this is important to both your kids and your husband, perhaps tolerable is the best you can hope for.
      Can you enlist the couple that knows and see if they'll help you navigate this? Can you grit your teeth until it's over? Don't do anything, of course, that will set you back. You could always beg off with the "flu".
      Are you in therapy at all? Perhaps a counsellor could help.

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    2. Elle,
      Thank you for your reply. It is so helpful to hear from someone who has, unfortunately, been there done that. I think you may be right. Tolerance maybe all I can hope for. I will see if I can get to a place where I can be at peace with that. Your suggestion about our friends is spot on. I will begin talking with them about my dilemma. They helped in the Oct. situation. It was nice and so necessary. I'm sure they will assist me once again. Thanks for suggesting it. I don't know why I didn't think of it myself! :)

      I am in therapy, once a week. It is helping. My counselor said that I have been to busy for the last 18 months to acknowledge my own grief and loss. Because of that I am a little behind in processing. ( We had some family emergencies, our daughter's deep depression, and my husband entering psychosis, that got in the way of my allowing myself to really feel and acknowledge the depth of it all.) I appreciate this blog so very much. Between the counseling and this blog, I don't feel so alone or "crazy".
      Thanks.

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    3. To above anonymous 18 months post d day:

      I absolutely think u should go. It will empower u. The best way to get over ur fear is to face it. Not going will give her power over u which she doesn't deserve & doesn't truly have anyway, since u & ur husband r together.

      My suggestion is to have a plan with ur husband how to handle if ur in close proximity to her.

      I myself have told my husband if we ever run into the ow from 10 years ago I'm going to pretend I have no idea who she is, & he's supposed to go along. One of the benefits of our husbands cheating & wanting to make it up to us is WE get to run the show in situations like this.

      And recruit some friends for support &/or as a buffer.

      Let us know how it goes please, if u decide to go.

      Sam

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  67. I'm just coming to realize how selfish my husband really is and how devoid of any empathy. He has cancer, he is at his highest dose of radiation, having terrible symptoms. He has prostate cancer which is curable at his stage. I have to travel for my work and currently leading a very huge financial project. Anyway I had six months of half truths and four months of real truth and I can't stop asking the same questions trying to figure out what is the real truth. Everytime I ask a question I get new information that doesn't change the story but adds more detail. For example he brought the OW in our home. First it was three times then four, then it was not only outside but on the front porch, then it was only in 2102, then it was not in the afternoon but evenings, then it was only an hour but more than an hour, then it wasn't just the living room but other rooms, then it was she really called about 12 more times but he told her not to come over. He says I ask the same questions over and over and he feels like I'm interrogating him. But I'm still getting more information 10 months post D day. He says he is afraid he is going to lose it with me and he is tired of me rubbing his nose in it and bring up the worst mistake in his life. We were arguing about this last night and I ask him what he was thinking and he said I'm having my own private thoughts. So I call about a dozen people and say I have to get on a flight earlier to go home. I send him a text and say I'll be home tomorrow night and all he texted me was "Kool". I feel guilty about being gone because I was for the two years he had the affair. But he could have said I really appreciate you coming home? I feel like I have a right to ask as many questions as I want until I'm satisfied that I have some understanding. He says I ask the same questions over and over, well yes because I get new information he calls nuances. He says he is not holding anything back he just doesnt remember everything unless I bring it up. I don't believe him. He only tells me enough at the time to answer the question but not completely answer it. I don't know if you still call this lying or not, lying by omission or am I being unreasonable? He has changed dramatically except on this one issue. I keep asking wondering if I got all the truth. I tend to email him questions when I am out of town that really upset him but I can't stop thinking about it sometimes and so I ask the sa,e question only to get more information that doesn't change his story only there is more details. Is there something wrong with me? Am I being unreasonable? I feel like just under his surface of emotions he really would like to "let me have it" but he is afraid I will leave him. I'm sick of this turmoil.

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    1. I am over a year past d day and it has been trickle truth from day one. And I still don't have the whole truth. But at this point I'm tired of asking, and the truths that I do get only serve as more triggers. First it was just sexting. Then it was a physical affair 3 years ago but it was when our marriage was bad. First that affair was just a few months then it was 8 months. Then when I felt like I was coming to grips with that one I found out about another physical affair from 10 years ago about which my husband remembers only some details. That affair took place when our marriage was good, and before the kids were here to take my attention away from my husband. While I also thought all of the details were important initially, I now know some details that I wish I hadn't. I have had insomnia for the last 4 hours because while my husband was flipping channels in bed last night he came across a movie he admitted to seeing with the first OW 10 years ago and he started watching it.

      I am by no means defending your husband, but many of the books I have read do also tell the cheater's side. To them, it often feels like a relentless and neverending interrogation into something they would rather forget and move on from. Yes easy for them to move on but not seeing my husband's avoidance as a plot to keep things secret from me, to cherish his time with them and keep it special did help me back off a little. I also found my husband to be more forthcoming when I wasn't barraging him with questions in a threatening way.

      One of my books suggested writing your questions down and thinking about them for a week to see if you really need to know the answer before asking. I found myself that a lot of my questions were about details that really don't matter, and a lot of these questions popped into my head when I was triggered. After the acute episode resolved, I didn't feel the need to ask anymore.

      For example, when I found out about the first affair I kept pressuring him about how long the affair was sexual, how many times they had sex, where they had sex, etc. By the second one I saw how little it mattered if it was 10 or 20 or 50 or 100.

      Good luck to you. My advice is to stop focusing so much on the details. You will make yourself sick over it and in my opinion you can never really know the whole truth. I know I don't. If someone had given me this advice from day one I wouldn't have listened, but if it helps you even a little then I am happy.

      Sam

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    2. I think we need to know what we need to know. And, in the early days post D-Day, it can be hard to figure out what we need to know. So much of our early response is fear-based. We're terrified of being blind-sided again so we want to know every possible detail, as if that will stave off future hurt. In other words, Sam's right. Whether it was five times or fifty, whether they watched a movie in bed or went to the theatre, whether they had a candle-lit dinner or went to a drive-thru. I absolutely get the desire to have a birds-eye view of the affair. It can go a long way toward helping us feel as if we're not on the outside. I once read a really valuable piece of advice re healing from an affair: When our husbands are cheating, it's like they're behind a door. When it's over, the door needs to be opened to us and closed to the affair partner. Getting our questions answered can help with that.
      BUT...and it's a big but...we have to come to a place where we let go of the details. Where we understand when we really need to know or if we're pain-shopping. Lynne, your husband's unwillingness to come clean -- and your frustration with this -- might have less to do with actually wanting the details than needing to see that he's willing to make himself uncomfortable to help you heal.

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  68. Tomorrow will be one year to the day that I found out about my husband's affair. An email from some person (i still don't know who) to me pretending to be the OWs husband (this person also sent one to the OWs husband pretending to be me) informing me of the affair. My husband denied it for months, telling me someone at work was out to get him. He even put me in contact with the OW so she could tell me how she wasn't interested in having an affair with my husband and that they were just friends. The emailer continued to send me notes assuring me that the affair was true and told me I couldn't give up until I found the truth. Through weeks and weeks of digging through financial records I finally found a paper trail that put them in hotel room together in the next city over when my husband was supposed to be on the east coast on business. I called her husband and found out she was supposed be out of town on business that time as well and we realized they were together. He still denied the affair. Finally, after four months he admitted to it. Details slowly trickled out. He denied she was ever in the house and a month later she texted me a picture of my daughter (5 years old at the time) with her daugher (2 years old) in princess dresses in my house. I still don't know who the person that emailed me about the affair is. I still feel unsure that I know the full extent of the affair. My husband has tried to be the kind of person he should have been before the affair. More helpful and more patient. He has become a great father to our daughter (he was nonexistent before, except when he took her on play dates with the OW). He insists I know everything. He thinks she is the emailer and cut her out of his life and feels betrayed by her. Sometimes I look at him and just feel sick. I think about the affair all the time still and am starting to feel like maybe time won't help me heal. I do feel so stuck. I wonder how long I should wait to see if I feel better. Am I just wasting my time and relief will never come, or will I regret it if I leave? What stinks is that no answer feels like a good one, so I just sit and wait......Stuck. I have read other postings many times but never posted here before. On one hand, it is nice to see other people post that they are still having a hard time after a year because it makes me feel more normal. On the other hand it makes me so sad to see the suffering, we have been suffering together for a year.....I just want to be happy. Thanks for listening......

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    1. As much as it stinks, my advice to you is to wait. The decision I would have made in the early days post-D-Day is a lot different than what I would decide now. If you're the least bit unsure...wait. Make a decision based on what you really want rather than based on anger or fear or some sort of expectation of how a betrayed woman should respond.

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  69. I made it thru the 1st year! Today is 1 yr anniv of DDay. It feels like an accomplishment to be here and still be together and fairly happy at that. As you all know, it is a long and bumpy road and many times one or both of us, have simply quit emotionally for a while. It's a work in progress. I cannot get rid of the mental images of my husband with prostitutes~it still haunts me. I try holding up a "stop sign" to get rid of these images but it doesn't always work. This is my biggest problem. He tells me he didn't even enjoy it that much but it had overtaken his life (sex addiction) but I have images in my mind like something from a porno movie. Does anyone else go thru this and any advice on getting it out of my head??
    Thank you....thank you all for being with me this year!!
    J.

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    1. J,
      Yay you!!
      And yes, the mind movies are tough to kill. Keep doing what you're doing. You mentioned the stop sign doesn't "always work" but that means it's working some of the time, which is better than none of the time. It can also help, if your husband is willing, to find out just how these "acts" played out. Our notion of adulterous sex is often based on steamy movies and soap operas...and bears little resemblance to real, messy, awkward sex. Then again, you run the risk of hearing something you don't want to hear.
      In my case, however, I learned that the sex was nothing I would ever want to engage in. Basically masturbation via another person.
      Ugh.

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  70. The movies get less but what I thought in my mind is not true. I had this vision of her meeting him at the door in a sexy nightie, Hollywood movie affair image. In reality he was over at her house less than an hour each time. There was no pillow talk after sex, no toys they both just got out of bed. She ask him to take a shower but he said no. She asked him to go down on her and he said no. She gave him BJ's. What my therapist helped me see is none of that is intimate. A BJ is not intimate. So when I see these movies I think it was non- caring sex, like a whore. She really didn't get what we had then even though it wasnt great then and she certainly didn't get any of what we have now. I had several mis conceptions which he set me straight. It was exciting for him at the time sure but not much else. What I think in my mind and what really went on is not the same. Once I found this out the movies turned into the B grade and then it was less significant in my mind.

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    1. Hi, the problem with me is that I do not know all the details...I can only imagine what exactly happened, since my husband does not want to say how many times they had sex, and how did they do it. Was your husband willing to talk about it? Should I "force" him to say all those details to me?

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    2. I think the issue is why your husband doesn't want to share those details. Often they think they're "protecting" us (but are really protecting themselves from embarrassment/shame).
      Have you read this post? Has your husband? Helps to explain why we need to know...http://betrayedwivesclub.blogspot.ca/2014/04/my-letter-to-husbands-just-talk-about.html

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    3. Hi Elle, how many details do I need to know, those that I know are hurting me really badly. Do you know everything about your husband's affair? Was he willing to talk? Did he tell you everything, how it all started, what did they do, how did he feel during the affair.

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    4. You need to know what you need to know. It's hard for me to answer. I needed to know EVERYTHING. What kind of underwear she wore, for gawd's sake. Did I really need to know that? Of course not. But I sure as hell thought I did. Consider writing the questions down. They might look a bit more ridiculous on paper. I eventually adopted the 24-hour rule: I would make myself wait 24 before asking a question that I NEEDED to know. Most of the time, I couldn't even remember the question 24 hours later.
      Yes, my husband answered everything. He told me things that were horribly embarrassing for him -- but the fact that he would do that went a long way toward making me realize just how sorry he was. Now, eight years out, I can barely remember most of what he told me. Hallelujah for that!

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    5. I'm just wondering, since not sure if it really matters if he slept with the OW 3 or 4 times or 100 times, one time is too much for me! I'm just lost and sad and sometimes I do not know myself what I need/want to know.

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    6. Then wait. Don't ask anymore right now. One time is one time too many. It will become clearer with time what you need to know to heal and more forward and what is simply pain shopping.

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    7. Thank you Elle, thing is that I actually only suspected when it started, I do not know for sure, when they started texting, sending emials etc. I can see that you say that cheaters have to be transparent. My husbend is not. He has a password protected phone, still - few months after discovery. He never liked to do things that he is forced to do. I'm not forcing him to do that, I asked. And still nothing. I'm tired of asking, and since I did that quite a few times, then gave up, and I'm sure that once I start again, he will get angry, that we make steps backward. Sometimes I think that he thinks he knows better what I need. He can not put himself in my shoes. And that would help. I can see he is trying, but on the other hand, why can't he do such a small thing as have his phone with no password. Does that mean that he is still with contact with the OW, or is he scared that she is texting him and does not want for me to find out....

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    8. Part of you agreeing to rebuild your marriage after his betrayal is that you need to set serious ground rules: No contact with the OW. Total transparency. If he can't agree to that, then he's not committed to helping you heal. This is how trust is rebuilt. Otherwise, he's simply expecting you to trust someone who's revealed himself to be deceitful. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. He needs to show you -- by being transparent and allowing you to verify -- that he's trustworthy.
      His unwillingness to do that shows that he really doesn't get just how damaging betrayal is to a relationship. In my experience, those who don't learn from this, repeat the behaviour.
      This isn't about controlling him, it's about rebuilding trust. If he won't help you with that, then you need to make it clear that you can't proceed. Whatever that means (ie. you file for separation, you kick him out, he sleeps on the couch, etc.) is up to you. But he needs to understand that there are ground rules for reconciliation and there are consequences for violating them. You're essentially teaching him that he doesn't need to take your feelings into account. That HIS feelings (around privacy, control, etc.) are more important. No way.

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    9. Hi Elle, thank you for responding so fast! Do you think that it's still possible to set those rules...straight after I found out I was not myself...at all, was not thinking straight, and talking about phone and other stuff would start him off. Is it not too late few months after dd? He just does not think that those things are that important, and they are important to me.

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    10. It's never too late to establish ground rules for healing. Are you two in couples counselling? If not, I would strongly suggest you find someone. I would insist that's part of rebuilding a marriage. It's not enough for someone to simply say "whoops, made a mistake. That won't happen again." Infidelity is a trust violation and they are incredibly damaging. Many marriages never recover. Those that do recover manage to do so because each partner is completely committed to rebuilding the relationship based on honesty and doing whatever it takes to heal. You're absolutely within your rights to say to your husband that you're taking stock of where you are right now and what you need to move forward. Tell him that you don't feel safe in your relationship and that you need to establish some parameters in order to begin feeling safe. Number one, no contact. Number two, access to any and all methods of communication. Number three, couples counselling. etc. etc. It's not about dictating (though way too many guys see it that way) -- it's about creating an environment where you feel safe opening yourself up emotionally again. It's a huge thing to ask someone who's been betrayed to make herself vulnerable again. So it's NOT a huge thing for that betrayed person to say, "well, okay, but here's what I need to help me trust you..."

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  71. But that's a thing I just understood after 2 months of D-day. That thing (the affair) was a 5 year committed relationship he had with this woman, they where engaged and talked to each other as "hubby" and "wifey" (I know that because I discovered their conversations), But 2 years and a half ago (2012) he left for deployment in the middle east, where we met and got married without him mentioning anything about her ever to me. 2 months ago, his Bday, my DDay, this woman wrote asking me what was I doing with his boyfriend (pictures and text messages included, and proof that he brought her to this country, half world apart from her location, when I was back in USA visiting my parents). He denied everything. He told me she was an obsessed overly-attached ex-girlfriend who wont let him go. But of course everything she told me was true.

    The whole thing was a real mess, because when he finally confessed, he didn't come clean at once, he kept lying to protect her and protect himself. I have tried to leave him but most of the time he honestly seems to be remorseful and wiling to repair all the damaged he had made. Besides, we have a 18 month old recently diagnosed with developmental delay.

    Sometimes he acts very uncomprehending, not only about the affair but the bad habits we still haven't brake that were what probbably brought us to this. And that makes me so angry, he says "that was on the past" (even when is something that happened a day before). He want me to overcome right away. Some times is my own brain willing to stop the spinning in my head that drives me crazy. We are on MC and I'm on antidepressants. We are as well reading some books to survive the "affair" and work things out, but that was beyond an affair, that was a whole relationship, a whole double life. Right know I'm still not sure if he worth the effort, If staying is the right thing to do. As you can imagine, I'm obsessed with that woman (the OW?) and my security just vanished completely. He had changed, though. He is really trying, but I'm afraid it's just an illusion and when things get better, he will go back to what he is (as well as me) and we screw it again.

    I still have a lot of doubts and I really need some advice, for example, several days after Dday (after she sweared love and repentance to me) it was HER birthday and she posted flowers she supposed received from him, I asked him and he told me it was a lie, that she probably send them herself just to screw with us. He showed me his bank account movements and there was no clue of that purchase (we still live in the middle east and he only can send them online using his credit card). But recently I discovered another credit card he has and he hasn't mention anything about it. I want to ask again, and I want to check this and another debit account I discovered. Shoud I?

    My counselor tells me to stop digging "into the past", should I listen to her? I need to know if his changes are for real... I know it won't happen in one day, but if he keeps lying, how much time do I have to struggle with this? Should I stop checking her FB account? I don't know how to stop that. Sometimes I feel better, sometimes I feel like threatening so he finally let me go.

    Thanks for reading.

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    1. I'm so sorry for everything you're going through. I can hear the pain and confusion in your post.
      I understand your desire to rebuild your marriage, especially with a child who will need extra support.
      I want you to create framework for rebuilding your marriage -- what you need from him in order to proceed. Top of the list must be NO CONTACT with the OW (and that includes flowers). Next must be total access to his information -- phone, computer, bank accounts, credit card statements (all of the credit cards). He needs to know that violating these terms means that you can't proceed with rebuilding a marriage. Maybe that means you leave, maybe it means that you sleep separately. But whatever your consequences are, they need to be created to help you rebuild safety in your life, not to punish him (though they might do that too).
      In other words, your healing has to be top of your list of priorities. And being able to emotionally and physically parent your child.
      If he can't provide the conditions for your healing, then staying with him is unhealthy.
      As for your counsellor? The past is the reason for your miserable present. Digging into the past is how we learn from it. Your husband should also be digging into HIS past to determine why he created this double life...and how to proceed to life a live of honesty and integrity.

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    2. You are so great for responding so fast!

      We've been sleeping separately for about one month, and yesterday was the first day he slept in other place because I asked him to show me the other bank accounts he was hiding from me and he proceeded in a very neglecting way and continued with a very bad attitude the whole afternoon. I've been checking his accounts, emails, social media, etc... but the idea of me spending more and more days doing it so makes me feel sick. I did it the first weeks but now I'm tired and I just need a break but at the same time I'm thinking about it all day, he has an email on his job which only can be accessed on his job, and I know she knows I read his other emails and she started writing to him there, but now he only says "she hasn't write anything" how can I be sure? I has lied about that before, and this girl keeps posting messages regarding love and some times infidelity.

      He also make promises of things to do to build a sense of security for me and my child, but maybe just to calm me down because the next day he totally forgets about them. The sad part is the holly days are coming, as well as our anniversary and my birthday (lucky me) and we have social compromises.

      I agree I need to know all the truth. He keeps lying in other stuff, though, just to protect himself from being an a.h. and that last part comes naturally on him. I don't know what's going to happen, I hope he really change because if he doesn't, things just won't work.

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    3. He's not going to "change" simply because you wish him to. He's showing all the signs of a poor candidate for change -- not following through on promises, continuing to hide, lying. What about his behaviour makes you think that he's committed to honesty, compassion and helping you heal? He sees you as the enemy to the freedom he wants to do as he pleases.
      I urge you to see a lawyer and determine what you're entitled to so that you're prepared if he leaves or if you decide to. Right now, you're in a really unhealthy, unbalanced relationship with a man who seems to have no real desire to become a better man.

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    4. I agree with you and totally feel the same and I tell him repeatedly that I free him to do whatever makes him feel happy but to stop imprison ME. As I don't work since 2 years ago (when I quit to go back to USA for my pregnancy and deliver, I was having some issues, and then we decided I will stay home for the first 2 years) I don't have any money for an attorney. It would be HIS money, so I have tried to talk about a post marital agreement, which he agrees but is some of the things he some times "forgets"to do. I've been researching on the internet, though and more or less I can figure it out...

      ...but after all some how after I talk about divorce or something, he won't let me go and during a fight he starts crying and begging, he tells me "look at our family, I will put more effort, I know there are more things I must change but please wait and see" and after I calm he acts sweet and patient, some times even submissive.

      Maybe he got to know the best part of me during this time that I was making a big effort on my part and then he decided to change, but it's so damn difficult to break such habits and change an entire personality. What if I lose myself in the process?

      The "good part" is that he finally agreed for a separation so I can heal to reconcile or else to divorce. I think he finally understood how selfish he was trying to keep me while I was poisoning myself everyday with his presence (and the memory of what happened)

      I hope this distance helps, and soon I could make a decision without all the anger in my heart. It has been very helpful being able to express myself through this blog, and YOU ELLE are amazing giving us your time to read and respond. I feel like I have annoyed enough to my best friend, he needs a break too LOL... best regards!

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    5. This is what friends are for...to prop each other up when falling down. :)
      I'm glad he's agreed to a separation. He'll either recognize that he stands to lose everything that matters...or he'll not. Either way, it gives you the space and time to determine what your next step is.
      Hang in there. You're stronger than you know.

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  72. Does the pain ever stop? Will I ever stop thinking how could he do this? I need some peace of mind. It was his choice and I have been hurting every day for the last 330 days.

    His choice because he wanted all the benefits of the our marriage while conducting their affair.

    His choice to try on the new relationship before abandoning me. He was prepared to lose me after when he felt secure in the relationship with Kindergarden teacher.

    He chose this to keep me securely in place.

    Nobody stopped him, not even himself. He found the appeal in the affair. He actively chose it because it suited him to choose it. He got something out of it – he enjoyed it from the outset and never stopped. I really meant nothing to him and I wasn't one of his options for over two years. Do you see why NOW is so difficult? I wasn't even a possibility to him.

    I really can't stand much more of this turmoil. I think I want to stay married I can see a future but I'm hurting so bad I just don't want to look at him sometimes and I don't think I'm ever going to get over this enough to move forward. I think wouldn't it be easier to walk away. There is no reason or excuse good enough to why he did this. I have been to counseling every week for a year. I can't stand it.

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    1. Lynn,
      Everything you say is true. There is no good reason for what he did to you. There are no excuses that make what he did okay. You'll likely never understand how he could have made those choices.
      What I hope you can do, however, is accept that he made them based on a fantasy. She represented escape to him. A chance to feel different. It was never about fleeing you...it was about fleeing the person he was and no longer wanted to be.
      What does he say to you when you're feeling like a consolation prize? Is he able to assure you that YOU are who he wants to be with right now? Is he able to understand just how deeply wounded you are? You are never going to be able to rewrite what happened. And it took me more than a year to truly process my own pain and believe that I was going to one day be past it. I hate to use that four-letter word -- time -- but it truly does work magic. But you have to help by not torturing yourself with the "but he..." and "he should have..." and "how did he..." questions that you'll never ever have a satisfactory answer for.
      Part of healing from this is accepting a situation that you wished never happened. A BIG part of healing is focusing, as best you can, on right now. Right now, are you where you want to be? Right now, is he showing you that he deserves this second chance? Right now, can you trust that the day will come when this will be a bad memory and nothing more?
      Hang in there, Lynn. We've got your back. There are many women on this site who are where you are...and many others who've been there and can light the way forward.

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    2. Thank you, I was in the middle of an entire melt down. You are a blessing to so many of us. I just appreciate you taking the time away from whatever is happening in your life to respond. So many of us depend on you but you are giving us a gift and we realize someone really cares when we have been through nobody cared. I don't even know you but I know you really care. You probably don't realize how precious that is for us.

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    3. Thank-you Lynn. I hope you realize what a gift you all are to me. To be able to extend a hand toward those who are exactly where I was...and pull you even a little bit closer to healing is something that helps me a great deal. I'm sure you'll do the same for others once you're on more solid ground.

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  73. Sam here, stuck again. I would like to apologize to you ladies that I mainly post when I'm down, and unfortunately you all are my sounding block.

    A few years ago my husband made a big deal about not being included on the email lists for my son's soccer and other activities, so I make sure to include him now (he was right). Since we both have I phones I also share my calendar with the kids activities, so that he can easily check what our plans are without having to constantly ask me. Last night I mentioned to him an email about possibly changing the time of our daughter's parent teacher conference next week, which was also sent to him. At that point he said he didn't realize both kids' conferences were that day, and he's going out to a dinner with a group of his closest friends from residency/fellowship, that this dinner was a long time in the making. I said unless you made plans in September when I booked the conference day & time there is no excuse. When my son was in kindergarten I would book the conferences Friday morning so I could go on my way to work, figuring my husband could care less about coming. He made a big deal (and rightly so), so I now always book them Thursday evenings which is usually the one night out of the week that he is home at a reasonable hour, so that we could both attend. If I had known he wasn't going I would have made them Friday morning. I made them on Thursday evening just for him, as I have for the last 2 years.

    Below is the email I sent him this morning, since I was so angry I couldn't even look at him this morning, let alone talk:

    Either nothing has changed or after 1 year of good behavior ur back to urself. Forgetting about the fact that u didn't check ur phone, How did u know WE didn't have plans that day? How did u know I didn't have plans? It is right around my birthday. Maybe I was planning on going out that nite with friends to celebrate my birthday, u know, what u always used to do. Oh that's right, I NEVER have plans.

    What happened to calling me & asking me if we have plans for this day or that day? I guess after 1 year things are back to normal so u don't have to anymore. U said this dinner was a long time planning. All that planning & yet u never mentioned it or bothered to check ur calendar or to check with me.

    Same old Max. U never mentioned it or checked because WE don't matter as much as UR PLANS. Thanks for reminding me, in case I actually forgot where I & ur family stand on ur list of priorities. Nice to be back in familiar territory again, lest I actually think I/we matter.

    Do u have any idea how insignificant I feel right now?

    And this was his response:

    You don't have to make a federal case out of EVERY issue

    Is he right? Am I blowing this out of proportion? Maybe I've been wrong all along in hoping for a better relationship. If you just accept things the way they are and resign yourself to settling then you can't be disappointed when life doesn't go as planned and when people don't live up to your hopes for them.

    Sam

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    1. Hi Sam,
      No, I don't think you're wrong. I think his response was completely insensitive. However, I also think your e-mail was a teensy-weeny bit passive-aggressive. What if you had simply responded with no sarcasm or snarkiness, "I know you must be disappointed to have to miss your dinner with your friends." And then...nothing more. Don't take responsibility (or defend yourself) for the fact that he double-booked. Don't mask your hurt that he's going out (again) with anger. Simply note that he's disappointed. His problem. Not yours.
      I have a hunch (because I recognize the pattern in my own marriage) that you take responsibility any time he doesn't get what he wants. You feel as if you've asked for too much. Or that you didn't give him enough notice. Or that, somehow, some way, you've screwed up and don't want him to have to put himself out in any way because that triggers your own fear that he'll resent you.
      Sam, you don't have to be a martyr to be worthy of being loved. You don't have to be the perfect wife, never asking him to inconvenience himself in any way, to trust that he loves you. He wanted to be involved with the kids' lives (as well he should) and you've made that really easy for him to do so. If he double-booked, well then it sucks to be him right now. His problem. Not yours. He wants your "permission" to blow off the parent-teacher night. And by responding to your anger with anger, he's kinda giving himself permission in the form of "she's over-reacting, as usual". And you're kinda giving him permission by being passive-aggressive and pushing him away in some sense.
      And the crazy part is that each of you wants the same thing -- closeness, a sense of "team" with the kids. But the hurt gets in the way.
      If you haven't already, read Barbara Colorado's Kids Are Worth It. It teaches out to detach from kids' little hissy fits but it also works wonderfully with adults' hissy fits. It's the perfect guide for dealing with people...big and small.

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    2. I appreciate ur input Elle. Ur totally right of course my email was sarcastic. I was totally being passive aggressive & lashing out.

      The first suggestion u had was a good one but u don't get it-- he's not missing his dinner. It's not that he wants to miss his kids' parent teacher conferences either. Actually his suggestion (which is where these things always go) is that I change our appointments. As I always say, "more work for Sam." So now it's 2 3-way conversations btwn me, my husband, & 2 sets of teachers to try to reschedule. & of course this is my responsibilty to be the go-between.

      Once I cooled off somewhat 2 days later we actually discussed what happened. When he relayed how the 4 doctors thru a drug rep had actually set up the dinner meeting I saw that of course it wasn't intentional that he had double booked that night. It really was just an innocent oversight on his part and not a sign of his treating me or the family as though we were less important.

      I later sent him the following email:

      Thank u for clearing the air this morning.

      With all that's happened it's hard for me not to see everything thru affair colored glasses.

      I tend to see everything with underlying meanings of:
      so he doesn't really care about me after all,
      he's not going to change/he can't change,
      it's all an act so he doesn't have to go thru a messy divorce,
      he just doesn't want to lose the kids,
      he's just laying groundwork for alibis for the next affair,
      he's going to use all this stuff as an excuse the next time he cheats,
      Not to mention the constant thoughts in my head of:
      did he do THIS with them,
      did he say THIS to them too, did he enjoy THIS more with them,
      were they better at THAT,
      etc.

      I'm really trying, though. I hope u can appreciate how hard this has been for me.

      I hope reading the above has given him a little glimpse into the turmoil in my mind during a trigger. I also hope it helps some of u other wives, since I can't be the only one fighting herself not to see the world through affair colored glasses.

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  74. I have the same pattern, give him want he wants or he will feel unloved, unattractive, and all those things that drove him into the OW arms. Although not all the time, because sometimes I lapse. I make a point to say what I want and say "I feel .....". When we don't agree. Then I decided if he doesn't like it and I'm not being unreasonable then there is the door. The hard part is I'm always questioning myself- I'm I being reasonable? When I asked him "why did you get the OW flowers" ; he said she asked me. When I asked him "why did you bring her wine?" He said she asked me. When I said "why did you buy her a Xmas gift?" He said she asked me. I always thought I was being independant because I never asked him to do anything. Then he didn't feel like I needed him. Now I make a point if it is something I really want - I ask him. NOW - he responds when I ask. He does sound like he is being an ASS about it but when I have something that I asked and he doesn't agree we figure out a plan together. I'm learning but it hasn't easy.

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  75. Part 2.
    His first response was to complain about what a crappy email it was, I am just throwing things at him, having a go at him for what he has done. What sort of way is that to communicate? How does it help? What is he supposed to do with it? Does all the hard work he is doing count for nothing? He says i should get to the feelings behind it (this is what we have been taking about in counselling). But the thing is I think he will react even more badly to the feelings, as all he will hear is me telling him he is doing things wrong. (My feelings on this are pretty much why can't he be willing to do whatever it takes to make amends for what he did and help me heal? I am scared he is not truly sorry for he did. What sort of person is he to still feel entitled to a $40,000 bike after what he has done? I feel unappreciated, that he takes for granted the second chance I am giving this marriage, by not taking my view into account when he made the decision to keep the bike...) He is going to print it out the email and take it to counselling. Which is fine. I did point out that the counsellor is not there as a judge on who is right or wrong but to help us hear each other and get through these things. This is often a response of his when he feels that I have done the wrong thing - he is very eager to bring it up in counselling, it is like he wants me to be the bad one.

    This defensiveness happens when I bring up the affair in a way that is in any way accusatory or pissed off. If I am crying he is usually concerned and remorseful now. But as have tried to explain to him, he never brings up or wants to talk abut the affair so I do sometimes feel the need to remind him what he did. After all it is in my head so much.
    When I bring up things he did during the affair that I am struggling with, and his response is to have a go at me for the way in which I brought it up it really feels like a punch in the guts. When all I want is for him to tell me how sorry he is. Look this is something that we talk about in counselling, he is trying to not be so defensive, and this has improved.

    So back to the motorbike, am I being unreasonable? The bike is a part of his self identity and he really loves riding it. I don't want him to sell the bike "Just to punish him", there are a lot of reasons. But I admit part of it is because it seems well, fair, especially after he spent $10K of our money on his affair on her and now we can't even afford a family holiday. It kind of balances the books. He could always get another one later.

    But anyway I am realising now that me making a big deal out of this was pointless, as what I really want is for him to WANT to sell the bike. As a gesture of apology, to take off the financial pressure and go on a family holiday, and to help me heal as the bike represents so many negatives about his affair. To make me his priority without question. And this isn't going to change. I don't want him to sell it begrudgingly because I am making him do it in a passive aggressive way. This is really the bigger issue, with things like this am I better off to shut up and settle for what is good about our marriage now? Why stir these things up when the truth is he is probably not capable of the deep remorse and willingness to own his affair that all of our recent issues root from. Why yearn for this and try over and over to express my needs to him, I am just setting myself up for disappointment. But if I settle we will probably end up with the same type of marriage that led to him being tempted by an affair. Sorry this has turned into a big rant. Can't believe I have so much to say about a bloody motorbike of all things!! I am focussing on the negatives and my doubts and have probably painted my husband in a more negative light than he deserves. He does feel remorse if he will just let himself think about it. So sick of hitting these ruts just when things are looking good.

    LC

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    1. LC,
      Your marriage counsellor is right in that you need to focus on your feelings -- not what you want him to do about your feelings. In other words, "I want you to want to sell a motorbike" isn't a feeling. But "I feel as if my needs aren't important to you" is. "I feel resentful that you're spending money that we could use to go on a holiday after spending money on your affair" is a feeling. It takes practice if you're accustomed to a different relationship dynamic. The key is to stop trying to control his behaviour and simply communicate your own feelings. And then...let it go. It's really hard. But don't keep pushing at him. State your feelings...and then let it go. Your goal isn't to control him; it's to engage him. It's to invite him to meet you half-way. His needs are important. But they're not more important than yours. And right now, with so much hurt, your needs have been ignored by him. And that's even more hurtful.

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  76. Sam I so understand why you are pissed off. He should know this is a sore point for you and not play dumb. I too have been asking myself this question of do I settle and not set myself up for disappointment. But I think you and I both know that we will end up unhappy. (I actually just posted a really long post but I'm not sure whether submitting it worked..)
    Elle you have hit the nail on the head as usual, I love your suggested response, that is just gold. I would have jumped to defend myself too and point out his mistakes - but it is so right that when we get angry they can then accuse of of overreacting, making it about us rather than them and giving them permission in their minds to get away with their behaviour. And we both end up feeling hurt and angry.

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  77. Sounds like the bike is a real trigger. My therapist took me through all the triggers and how to deal with them. We started out with small things, brown chair in our home, coffee shop, restaurants then we went on to bigger issues my house, my dog, our new truck (she rode in it more than I did). My therapist made me sit in the brown chair until I got angry as hell then I had to sit there until the anger subsided and then it was just a brown chair nothing more. It took me hours and weeks to do this as we went throught everything she touched. There are something's I still can't accept and we are getting rid of those things. My husband wants to get rid of anything that reminds both of us that bad memory. Even when our therapist wanted me to deal with it and I couldn't my husband got rid of it. I think both approaches helped me. Anything I said was tainted out it goes except the his truck. And that's because we can't afford a new one. So I just call it the pimp mobile. I can't help it. I'm not perfect. It sounds like you guys still really don't talk about underlying stuff. How about if he got a different less expensive bike? You go on the new bike with him topless OR chaps withou underwear OR bring a blanket and make him take a detour and make love. It might be better than a family vacation. Make new memories for you both. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but if my husband is willing to do whatever then I'll meet him half way when I am able and in the right frame of mind.

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  78. Thanks you Elle and Lynn for responding to my long past, which didn't actually make that much sense as my part 1 didn't work! And then my response to Sam's post was in the wrong spot. Ooops! But it was pretty much back story and me stating my case for him selling the bike. The main point of which I suppose is that the bike was part of his salary package to pay off over 3 years in lieu of a bonus. It was an incentive for him to stay there, however one year in he started his affair with his client who was a work colleague, the client PM actually - putting his job at risk as well as his marriage. His choice. So we had to come up with $14K to pay it off when he finally left 4 months after dday (this 4 months was horrible as he worked with OW every day and I still have a lot of hurt from how he handled that time, the main reason it took him so long to quit was so that the $14K owing on the bike wouldn't be even more).
    Anyway Elle yes you are right I do have trouble with separating my feelings and expressing them in a way that doesn't push him away. The way I worded his email, even me feeling the need to state my case here, is all falling into our old relationship dynamic of us both getting caught up in convincing the other person that we are the one who is right, not feeling heard, and getting caught in an argument that goes around in circles. And I do keep pushing too long, it's like I have to feel satisfied that he gets it but usually he actually needs time to think about it wthout feeling like I am "throwing things at him" for him to get it., Anyway I have gotten it all out now, including expressing these feelings to him and am happy to let it go now. Whether or not it changes anything at least it is not festering in my head anymore. I'm sick of talking about or even thinking about it.
    Lynn yes the bike is a big trigger! The little things that are triggers are good to get rid of and he is fine with this. But there are so many triggers like places, the passenger seat of my car, or yearly events where a year ago he was sneaking off to be with or to call or text OW, that you can't easily get rid of. I actually don't want to lose these things because of his selfish affair!! We too try to make new memories and own them back. My husband would love your suggestion of making new memories on the bike! :) Unfortunately it is not made for riding pillion on.

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