Replenish, process and breath. At the stroke of midnight ... my H said i love you and im sorry, again ... i responded ... i forgive you, even tho i still feel the hurt. I thought long and hard about this ... looked up forgiveness as well as sought support here im comfortable with it in its not letting it go or saying its ok .. i took in what ladies here said ... forgiveness isnt wanting revenge or wishing harm and if thats the true definition then i really forgave long ago as i want the complete opposite for him, me and us. My h cried and i felt something heavy lift from me. Yes i did it for him but i also did it for me almost 10 mo out and a new year ahead somethings gotta give. I still think about it but its not as consuming and i try then to feel it and focus then on the now rather then obsess dwell or wish away ... knowing now that was at first a way to cope try to understand and process but now know it only holds me back as no matter how much i try to process i will never understand it all but i do have a bigger picture for a storyline that makes sense and i hope thats enough and i also know no matter how much i wish it away it will always be there only now i want to work on putting it in our rearview mirror some days that is easier then others. Another thing i learned i dont need to hold on to this remind H Or heal him .. he has to do that himself and thinks about it daily all by himself. I know we have a road ahead still ... forgiving and loving is a daily choice we all make and a positive attitude is half the battle at least thats my outlook right now i deserve happiness we all do. Heres to a hopeful thought that 2016 is better then last. 2015 wasnt all a loss ... perspective is a blessing even if the road to it was a battle. Happy New Year BWC Warriors or as another said ... unwhore the holidays lets make it unwhore the year lol ...
Marriage Box Poem ... we are working on filling our box not emptying it. Who knew going in marriage was so much work ... kids are work. Everything really important takes work .. you get out what you put in right
Most people get married believing a myth that marriage is beautiful box full of all the things they have longed for; Companionship, intimacy, friendship etc ... The truth is, that marriage at the start is an empty box, you must put something in before you can take anything out. There is no love in marriage, love is in people, and people put love in marriage. There is no romance in marriage, you have to infuse it into your marriage. A couple must learn the art, and form the habit of giving, loving, serving, praising, of keeping the box full. If you take out more than you put in, the box will be empty.
Wounded Your words speak volumes! This morning h and I walked our lab around the block where I have watched the ow slowly driving by. H looked between houses and said look you can see our house! I said to him well that explains why she drives down that road. I then shared with him what I learned here... The best revenge for her is to continue to see us happy together and just moving on! I didn't trigger and I feel at peace for now! Happy New Year! May each of us continue to find peace and joy in the coming months!
As for me healing is forgiving , for almost a year i always ask why he did not love me , why he treat his ow like a queen while me begging for love and attention and asking him to stop..and Then I realized its not me , its all up to him he's the want who messed up our marriage. Yes we do have shortcomings as a wife but not enough to give them A reason to cheat . Healing is a process and accepting we could not change them, but we could change ourselves . Give time ladies when you came into your sense then you will realized that you are strong and brave enough to stand on your own. We dont know what will be the future but day by day try to find your inner peace and small things that will make us happy . Our happiness dont depend on them but on ourselves. Try to focus on yourself more , try to get up and pick up the broken you , in the end life is still beautiful ������
My therapist said your exact same thing to me today.
"What can we do to take care of YOU."
I don't feel the need to fix everyone or their relationships anymore. And I'm getting ready to sit down and do a watercolor painting. I'm learning to let things go and let God do the work.
Hi ladies, I've been a regular on here in my earlier days post d day, 2 1/2 years post dday, went thru the whole process of reconciliation, therapy etc etc thought we were doing well considering. Then over Christmas he had some late nights something in my gut telling me things aren't right then I become suspicious and within days I get a confession he's been out to dinner with another woman, no fffuckin way did I see that one coming in a long shot. I'm sat here in bed with my eldest son who's in tears as his dad has just left on my orders. What the hell do I do Now? How did I end up in this situation again? How dare he do this to me and think he can get away with it, I'm obviously still in shock and need some time to digest the last few hours. Not sure whats gonna happen tomorrow but I feel utterly cheated and betrayed all over again and overwhelmingly sad for my 2 boys aged 12 and 2. They just want daddy, what a selfish basterd to put me and his kids thru this again. I'm shell shocked I can't even tell you. Help xxx
Sam A, I'm so sorry that he didn't appreciate the chance you gave him. I think you know what to do...it's just so hard to do it. After all the pain you worked through, he's putting you through it again? You're absolutely right to be outraged. How dare he?? How dare he do that to your children (and make no mistake, HE is the one doing this to your children even though you're the one who asked him to leave). I'm so sorry Sam. Sorry for the pain you're in and sorry he's too big an ass to recognize the gift the reconciliation. We're here to offer whatever support you need.
I didn't want the kids to know, but they were 22, 18 and 14 when the shit hit the fan. They are now 24, 20 and 16.
Our oldest knew within 5 minutes of me finding out. I had found something on the computer and confronted him as she walked down to the basement, she was so upset.
It was quite a while later before the boys knew.
It was hard. I found the boy's became very protective of me. They were extremely pissed off. I remember our 20 year old asking me how I could stay with his dad and our youngest saying it's nice that another woman is more important than our family. Our daughter wanted to punch the other woman in the face, said if she ever saw her she would.
I told them all that both of us wanted to try and work it out, but there were no guarantees.
Fortunately, things have worked out, so far. I have no doubt, we made the right decision, and the kids are happy about it. They see mom and dad are happy, they see us getting along. They are also disgusted with the affection, and I couldn't be more thrilled!!
Like I said, it's a personal decision. I will say this, I don't think you want to lie to them if questions are asked, afterall, that's what your husband did to you, to the family unit, just my thoughts. Good luck to you, I know it's tough. (((HUGS)))
My hubby's mistress is porn and I wish I had left years ago but I felt trapped financially ( I homeschool ) and I felt the kids wanted their dad.
Well...fast forward a 12 years later and I'm dealing with a suicidal 18 yo with a severe eating disorder ...ect. His addiction bled into my children.
I'm am SO sorry he did that to you again. I think you did the right thing by making him leave. Your kids need YOU to be healthy and not stuck in a constant cycle of PTSD and trauma which happened to me. My kids were robbed of the mom they needed b/c his SA changed me into something I'm not.
We separated in the home for over a year and my son gave up his room.
Thanks Elle, i feel like someone has pulled the rug from under my feet. I'm so sad for me and my children, they are the innocent ones in this and I hate the fact that if they wanted him back id do it but not necessarily for the right reasons. Has anyone been in this position where they have forgiven but been betrayed later down the line, what did you do? Any advice is greatly appreciated feel like I'm in such a bad place right now. Xx
Sam, I think you stick to the boundaries you created around reconciliation. Which are, generally, I will give you a second chance. Not a third and not a fourth. A second chance. Don't screw it up. As for what to tell your son, without giving up too much detail, I would simply explain that honesty is paramount in relationships and this his father was dishonest about something very important. If he asks further, Ii would tell him that some problems are adult problems and that he doesn't need to concern himself with them. As painful as it is, you are showing him how to set boundaries for himself as he grows. How to respect himself. How to insist upon respect from others. Those are hard lessons but invaluable. Assure him that he will always be loved by both of you no matter what happens. But that actions have consequences, which is why it's so important to think things through. And then...let him be sad. Let him be angry (without taking responsibility for his anger). And let yourself feel sad and angry. You've lots to feel sad and angry about. But that doesn't make your husband's behaviour any less unacceptable. Hang in there, Sam A. This is utterly unfair. But you've survived before and you will survive this. Stick to your boundaries. You deserve better than this. You deserve respect and integrity and honesty.
Thank you so much Elle. That's great advice wish I wasn't back for the same thing but glad I've got you and your ladies to support me. Thankyou I'll keep you posted
Sam. I have followed your story ... respect you and know you are a strong and brave woman. You are so very valuable and precious. Sadly your husband doesn't get that ... he cannot see that because he does not value himself. If he loved himself he would know what a treasure he has before him. Years ago my friend was forced to leave her abusive, multiple cheating husband. Yes, for a time her 15 year old son resented her (he had even witnessed the abuse time and again), yet as he matured he came to see that she did what she did for her and her boys. I know your husband is not physically abusing you ... Sam, you will do what is right for you and your children, that I know. Love & hugs
Thanks Rachelle, mbs and Elle sound advice. After much thought, hurt and seeing my son so distraught yesterday I decided to let my husband back. I wanted the hurt to go away and to some degree it has. However the hard work now has to start again. I have laid down some boundaries which I Hope will again stop this reoccurring although I know there are no gurantees I understand that. I've insisted he sees a counsellor on his own he has so many unresolved issues from childhood. And maybe some counselling together. I have demanded telephone numbers if his friends so I can always contact him when out if need be. I have also said I need to know where he is going, who's he's with and when he will be back. It's standard stuff that I do already but I want him to do the same.
As for him saying he just went for a meal with an old Uni friend and nothing more to it, I'm not sure I believe it. I don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise but I do know that he lied about where he was and arranged this meal with her out of town. Wholly wrong and disrespectful, I sometimes wonder why I have to break it down to make him understand. I can't get my head around why he thought doing that would be ok.
I'm going through the emotions at present, angry that he had caused me so much unnecessary pain all for his selfish bloody needs!!!
Thankyou ladies for offering up your support. I'm so grateful. Xxxx
I can't believe some of these guys need it spelled out for them either. It boils down to this: If you wouldn't do this with your wife standing right beside you and listening to every word, then you shouldn't be doing it. It's really that simple. Hang in there, Sam A. Stick to your boundaries. It sounds, since he's still defending himself and his actions, that he doesn't get it at all. I think you need to brace yourself. You might even want to see a lawyer about how you might proceed if this happens again. Your husband seems willfully ignorant.
Sam I feel for you so much, I have four children between the ages now of 15 and 8 but at the time two years younger. It is incredible how singleminded and thoughtless they can be, not truly considering how their actions will severely affect the whole family, especially the children. I am two years out (today!) but had a second d-day nine months after. This I can see as not working through what she/the addiction truly was doing for him, not really facing up to it. Your husband is still dancing to whatever allure these liaisons have for him, ego boost, filling low self-esteem, thrill of the chase whatever and despite the counselling and so on. This new revelation means that he is still wired for deception and has not done enough to cut the wires. This might be the massive shock he needs to realise he has not done enough but 1) he might be one that never learns 2) the risk of more pain to you is great given how far along the road you are. It is an awful situation for him to have put you in and as Elle says he is the one that is hurting the children. He is the one that has chosen to please himself despite the dreadful consequences to others. Even if he is now horrified at himself (is he?) he may have exploded one too many bombs and you might have to regretfully part to save your sanity. I will be thinking of you.
I just read this and my heart breaks for you and your children. I agree with everyone here and Elle, no matter the pain your boundaries are there to protect you and your children, emotionally, physically, financially, spiritually.
My three daughters know everything and when D-Day hit the youngest was just turning 13. I believe the truth always sets us free no matter how shattering because it leads us to deeper possibilities, to light and strength versus the death of secrecy, deceit and darkness..... and we have found this to be true no matter what (this horrible tsunami of betrayal) has done to us as a family
Shield up to this sorrow and new agony. Beloved sister we are here with you, always a whisper, thought and prayer away.
Melissa, fragments of hope and Valkyrie great words of wisdom.
Not sure whether this is harder than the first time around. At least the first time I knew what I was dealing with (a full sexual affair). Now I only have a restaurant receipt to go by which as I said above said was an old Uni friend but I'm not convinced. We are booked into counselling next week.
I agree foh he is still wired for deception and I think more work is needed to help him look at his behaviours and consequences of them. He's not horrified with his behaviour as he claims it was a catch up with an old friend (hmmm) maybe I found out before it went any further. Whatever the situation he now knows it was wrong to keep from me and can see why I am so hurt.
Here's hoping we will crack his mind boggling thinking and get through this. It's a blip in my road of healing but im sure if we both want to be together we will get there.
Thank you lovely ladies your all a god send seriously :) xxxxx
I love this quote. I keep coming back to it daily. I just feel a real struggle lately. I am not sure if it is related to the holidays or not. I guess somewhat of a roller coaster. Things can feel great and then wham anxiety and distress are there wearing me down. I know some of it is due to a few triggers/blips. I do not think my husband totally understands how a few minor behaviors can trigger so much upset with me. He wants to believe everything is great and moving along and past us. It is really hard. Since May I have asked for him to set aside one time a week to talk. And he does not think it is necessary. We have covered everything etc. he is willing to talk but then it means I need to ask to talk. Which is not easy for me. When is a good time really never. There are plans, kids around, work, lots of happy times, or it seems late at night is our only time. I have learned talking late at night is not productive for either of us. So I sit and think when can I bring this up. So I have been carrying around a lot of resentment related to this.
Well one night we were out and he was distracted and irritated by things unrelated to me nothing related to the affairs at all. But he was in a mood not very social, so I was on my phone catching on posts on this website since I had not looked in a few days. Well he asked what I was looking at. He was not thrilled. Well in the end he admitted all his actions are him trying to have this be in our past. The less we talk about it the better move past it etc. his major solutions is corrective emotional experiences. This is all great. Yet I explained to him I have known about some of this for 10 months and supposedly all of it for under 5 months. This is very different from him who made all these decisions and has lived with it for 10 years and is happier and feels the best he ever has in his adult life. So the good news is since then he has been more open and even asked how I was. I guess my biggest hang up is how do I know he has told me the truth after dragging out the details for so long. He says there is no way for him to tell me everything. He has no way of remembering it all. I get it and I never have said tell me the exact day and time. It is just some things he has told me do not add up. His reasons contradict themselves. So I am struggling at what point can I let it go or is it too much.
The other main struggle I have now is now he could treat me like crap and do all he did for 10 years, tell me he is not "in love with me", among many other things and now I am what means the most to him. I find it so confusing. I am so the opposite of him and I think that is part of this. I have honestly never changed from the point of what my character is and ever was. I just think who is he? He says it was a huge wake up call and that is how he can feel this way. I don't know it feels so extreme to me. Ugh wish this wasn't all so confusing.
Oh one last thing most recently my therapist said I tolerate too much. He said he would not classify me as an enabler but that I tolerate too much. I am struggling with that, I am not the kind of person to tell someone what to do and not super bossy. I mean of course as far as the affairs go we have clear boundaries set no contact etc..
Yet he was saying time on the phone or iPad texting and emailing. Amount of time connecting with friends that are single or not marriage focused. I don't know this is a hard one. My husband has pulled away from his friends a ton and all on his own. But how far do we set parameters and rules.
Hopeful30, Wow. I could have written a lot of what you said. I think a lot of what you're describing can be resolved by you learning how to set healthy boundaries. For instance, you've asked him to set aside time each week to talk, which is a perfectly reasonable request and one that many of us have made. (It's also one that could be handled in therapy if you two were in couples counselling, which might be a really good idea.) The fact that he doesn't think you "need" it isn't for him to determine. Your heartbreak, your rules, as Steam put it on this site. You get to set the rules. He's been setting them for far too long without your knowledge. So...you don't back down. You need to decide how to handle it if he won't make time to talk. Do you insist he's on the couch? Do you file for separation? This isn't about being manipulative, it's about setting boundaries to help you feel safe and valued in the relationship. When he refuses to honour those boundaries, there needs to be some consequences. You get to decide what those consequences are. Letting resentment build isn't healthy for you or your relationship. Perhaps the consequence is simply stating, clearly and unequivocally, "when you refuse to set aside time for something that I think is important, it makes me feel devalued and dismissed. I just want you to know that." And then leave it at that. Say it as many times as you need to. It will help you NOT feel resentful because YOU are honouring yourself even if he can't. So much of our resentment stems from us not standing up for ourselves. We can't expect others to treat us with respect when we don't treat ourselves with respect. I understand your husband's desire to "move on." It's a familiar refrain from men who find their own behaviour shameful. But that's not their choice. This takes a long time to heal. We're here because of choices THEY made. Like it or not, if they want to rebuild their marriage, it's better for everyone if they show up and do the hard work of supporting us through this. Hopeful30, this isn't confusing. You're just trying to alter your response to this pain in a way that pleases him and creates the least hassle. But it doesn't work that way. Your feelings are legitimate. They deserve your and his attention.
It helps to hear this. Yes a lot of this I know. Part of what I feel our issues are the fact he is in the mental health business. So as I tell my therapist about what has changed and he even says it is remarkable based on where he was. My husband says and does "the right thing" 99.9% of the time. It almost does feel perfect or even too perfect. I do worry he knows the right thing to do or say. I mean he is the therapist and has all the training. He has very set ideas on what is required based on that. I have been asserting myself that his path and needs to healing might be different than mine. Another major annoyance which I have faced our entire relationship is when I bring up a concern about us or our kids he always says it is nothing compared to what he sees in his office. My reply is always that is not me or us and I don't care about them. I can see now the issues he has which concerns me if he can manage those. He has acknowledged them yet not sure how much he can or is doing about them. Time will tell. Lots more work to do. Thank you for all your thoughts.
Hopeful30, This isn't the pain olympics. Just because someone has it "worse" than you (though, let's be honest, it's a pretty subjective thing. I've had more than one woman on this site who considers the betrayal by her spouse to be "worse" than the rape she endured as a child) doesn't make your feelings invalid. I hope your husband's approach with his clients is a bit more compassionate. Imagine going to see a therapist who dismisses you with "well, so-and-so has it a lot worse than you so stop whining. That will be $150 please." It's funny because I used to beat myself up for being so sad when I knew there were people in the world who'd lost their families in accidents, fled war zones, etc. And my therapist reminded me over and over that their pain doesn't eclipse mine. I'm entitled to my experience and to my response to my experience. Betrayal, as so many experts attest, can be traumatizing. To be told that someone has it worse is not only unhelpful, it's harmful. Repeat after me: I am entitled to my feelings. I am entitled to my feelings. I am entitled to my feelings...
Hi Sam, I feel a connection to you thru this and you were among those who nurtured, inspired, and guided me on DDay (2 yrs ago Nov.) and thereafter. We are afterall, all united in a unique, be it painful way. I just read your most recent post and I just want to reach out to you with a hug and any support I can give. You are a strong amazing woman for hanging onto him and your marriage all this time. I pray you find answers as you navigate in once-again troubled waters. We are all here for you. J.
J, Thank you for your support. I'm so glad I helped you in your healing. That makes me feel so touched. :) I'm so lucky to have you ladies in my life. Thank you xxx
Dear Hopeful 30, I learned in therapy the person who has the least invested in a relationship is the one likely to have an affair. My therapist told me I don't expect enough. She helped me to see I thought I didn't didn't deserve it. My husband had me convinced that I'm critical and nag him. Yes to some extent I did. But on somethings I just didn't expect what NORMAL woman expect in a NORMAL marriage. I didn't know what normal was. What you expect is tied to your self esteem. The woman with low self esteem doesnt expect much because they think so little of themselves that they don't deserve to be treated kindly, respectfully. It is hard to build up self esteem after being cheated on. Really hard because the I wasn't good enough monster thoughts is everywhere especially if you were there already prior to the affair. The problem is I don't know what is reasonable to tolerate. I'm still learning that part. Is it reasonable to tolerate this but not that? You have to decide what you expect and what you don't then stick to it. My husband somewhere along the way said "Why didn't you call me out?" I thought I don't know but I should have. My therapy was one year about the affair and PTSD. The other year was about my self esteem and why I expected less, accepted less and tolerated his selfish behavior. We have a no phone rule at dinner, at any dinner. If I sense conversation is lacking or either of us is not in a good mood. I scribble on a note 5 questions to ask him "not affair" related, stick in my pocket, that I want to know about him. I'm pleasantly surprised how much he opens up to me and I learn things about him I didn't know. Corny in today's age of technology yes and it's old fashion but there has never been a time he didn't surprise me. I also state my answers. He has trouble opening up with his emotions. When my husband took the OW out to dinner, I figured she didn't look at her phone. I never miss an opportunity to communicate good, bad, shouting, crying or whatever I feel at the time. Can I ramble on or what?
Lynn, That's such a great idea re. the five questions. Everyone everywhere should try it. None of us needs to be looking at our phones when we're face to face with another human being. And yes, the "I'm not enough" monster wreaks havoc on us. It's why, however, healing from betrayal can also launch us into a much healthier relationship with ourselves. We can finally come to understand that we are enough,have always been enough. WE can learn better ways to create boundaries. We can learn to respect our feelings and wants and needs simply because they're ours. What is reasonable to tolerate? Nothing that makes you feel less about yourself. Nothing that feels like a threat to your marriage. You are always free to state what you want and need and he is always free to negotiate. That's what relationships are about. You matter. He matters. And together you create a relationship that honours both of you.
Thanks for your reply. A lot of that hits home. I think the hardest thing for me is when our relationship feels so right but then I think yikes I better protect myself. And am I slipping back am I being too relaxed. I am speaking up more and for that matter when we were pre d day I did too. I challenged my husband regularly. He always turned the tables on me and there was always an excuse of work. He was around a lot but just detached. Everything was my fault. I should have seen that and I guess asked him to change or leave. But it was all so grey and way too many days and moments felt real and genuine. He still claims they were for him too.
I think a major issue for me is I grew up an only child and a latch key kid. From a young age being independent and taking care of myself was expected. It was viewed as a good trait. I carry that over now to life. I am someone that enjoys and even craves time alone and relishes in it. I think maybe that is a major reason my husband wanted to be with me, I am not a combative or challenging type of person and have never kept tabs on anyone.
Things are a million times better between us. I feel like I can trust him but then I get a nagging feeling about it all. Hopefully time will help.
Well, the last couple of weeks have been pretty horrible, only to get even worse in the last few days.
To briefly recap, about 3 weeks ago, 10 months from D-Day #1, I found out that my h had been back in contact with the OW. She had come to him when her world blew up in her face because he is "the only person she ever loved and trusted", she has no friends (her own doing, she's absolutely poisonous by all accounts) and her family doesn't particularly care for her, nor are they local. She's mentally ill with some pretty extreme behaviors due to sexual abuse by her father, and can be dangerous. My H told me he felt sorry for her and wanted to try to help her by being a friend. She can be very self destructive, engaging in risky sexual behavior (going to bars to find strangers to have sex with), and he said that he feels protective of her and wants to keep her from potentially being hurt or killed. She was someone he loved, even if it wasn't a healthy, "in love" love and he didn't want to turn his back on her. This is all according to him.
He told me it was purely platonic, but inappropriately flirtatious. She's incredibly flirty and complimentary by nature, as she's pretty much a professional seductress. And some part of him falls for that. He has very low self esteem from a really crappy childhood and isn't what most women would call handsome. He spent most of his childhood being told he was ugly by his female peers, while enduring emotional abuse and neglect at home, and dealing with the fallout from a period of sexual molestation when he was 7 that he never told anyone about. So her adoration and constant compliments trigger something in him. And he returns it in kind in order to keep that feeling. But he insisted that it was not "romantic".
But, he finally admitted the other day that there was one physical incident. She climbed into his lap and they kissed and she was "grinding" on him. He says he stopped it when she went for his belt buckle and nothing like that happened again.
He also admitted that he does actually love her...that the feeling returned during this new contact. He says that it's nothing like the love he has for me and he doesn't want to "be" with her, have a future with her or have a physical relationship with her, but it's more than a platonic "buddy" love. He wants to protect her from herself and know that she's okay. He told me that he's doesn't feel okay with not being able to help her, that it makes him unhappy to not know if she's alright.
The last time they met, she asked him if he would ever make a commitment to her and he told her no. He had already told her repeatedly that he would never leave his wife and that he loved me. She was They didn't speak for 2 weeks because I found out about the contact the following day and we sent a no-contact email, but he aadmitted that she called him last week and screamed at him for leading her on, accused him of driving by her house, trying to call her housemate/landlady (who she hates) and other stalker behaviors. I do know for a fact that none of her accusations are true. This was not surprising to him because she accuses every man she's ever been with of the same thing. She gets angry or her feeling get hurt, and she starts making paranoid claims, sometimes going so far as to file false police reports. Did I mention she's mentally ill?
But he still worries about her. It's mind boggling.
To say I was devastated even more by all of this is an understatement. I honestly don't know what to think or do. We're back in MC with a new counselor who specializes in issues like this, but I can't see how we're going to make this marriage work. We haven't had a session since these new bombshells, however.
I've told him from the start of this new betrayal that I don't think I'm going to get past this one. He knew the damage he had caused the last time and allowed it to happen again. I've told him that I ultimately want a divorce, but there's still that part of me that loves this man I've been with for 25 years, who still sees the good man he used to be. Seriously, this guy was loyal to a fault...but now...
He cries and swears he wants this marriage, that I'm the love of his life and his soul mate...but those just sound like empty words now because I've heard them before. He's swearing that he'll never speak to her again, that he knows any relationship with her is destructive, that he truly knew it all along but got caught up in his white knight role with a damsel in distress who is both a "Jezebel" AND weak, helpless and pathetic. He swears that he was encouraging her to return to her old home across the country and believes that is ultimately where she'll go since she has absolutely nothing here. He also, the absolute idiot, says that he didn't think of this as an affair. That he knew he was doing the wrong thing by lying to me, but he rationalized it by telling himself that he wasn't looking for a sexual relationship, that he was helping her get her life together and that it would be short lived. He also swears that he had realized toward the end that he was playing with fire, that she was showing her true colors again and starting to act sociopathic and bizarre and that he was trying to figure out a way to end the friendship, but didn't know how to do that without causing her further damage. Again, he "loves" her and doesn't want to see her hurt.
WTH is my life??
Ladies, I'm all over the place I know. I think I just needed to get this all out in this safe space. Advice is greatly appreciated, but understanding and commiseration are just fine, since there are no easy answers.
Hi Dana, No worries re. where you post. It's all okay. I'm so sorry for all of this but I think you know the answer to your question. You set your boundaries and your husband violated them. He had contact with her, he "loves" her, he lied to you about her, he violated his own "no contact" with her. I'm sorry he's sorry...but he created this situation. I'm not saying you have to march into a divorce lawyer, but I do think you need to follow through with the consequences of violating your boundaries. I don't know know what you told him but is he sleeping on the couch? Moving out? I hope to God he's in serious therapy for his issues, which should absolutely be one of your demands for reconciliation. His loyalty must be to you. Just because you're not crazy doesn't mean you don't deserve to be protected and cherished. It doesn't mean you don't need him. He seems to have fallen, like many men, for the whole "white knight" scenario where he feels like a hero for saving some screwed up woman from herself. I'm sorry she's had such a crappy life. Nobody deserves that pain. But he's NOT helping her. He can't be available to her in a healthy way and she can't respect boundaries. So it's off limits. That's not negotiable. She needs a therapist, not a boyfriend who's married. Dana, stick to your guns. You can love him and still insist that he honour your marriage. You can be sad and still know that you're not doing yourself any favours by not holding him fully accountable for lying and having contact with her again. He screwed up. It's up to you now to determine the cost of his screw up.
That's just it Elle. I don't know what the price for this needs to be. Yes, I've told him that I ultimately want a divorce...which has caused issues with his feelings of rejection. He spirals from weepily saying that he loves me more than anything in the world into somewhat angrily asking why he should prove it when I'm already done with him....and "why do you care, you don't want me anymore anyway". He seems to think I want him to "dance" so that I can have the satusfaction of seeing him devastated and left with nothing (however, I do think part of this is his severe depression talking, he gets very irrational when he's in the thick of it and I mentioned before that he went off his Prozac to try St. John's Wort, which used to work on his seasonal depression, but I don't think it works for him when he's at this low of a place.)
I'll admit, I've said some ugly things, called him a lot of names, but he knows me better than to think I'm that sadistic. I have no desire to see him suffer, I just don't want to be the one suffering anymore.
We are still sleeping in the same bed. We don't have an extra room and we both have back/neck issues that make the sofa unbearable for sleeping. We also have 2 teenaged boys, one of whom is mildly intellectually disabled and is definitely picking up on the palpable tension in our house. He wouldn't understand why dad was sleeping on the sofa and he's already been having some issues based on how this is effecting the mood around here...I'm rarely seen without red eyes anymore and my h looks like a deer in headlights one minute and a grumpy bear the next.. The older one is rarely home, so he seems rather oblivious, though....too busy living his life, thank God. We've discussed separation...but we both feel that it would really just be a step toward divorce and aren't ready emotionally to figure out the details with everything so raw.
Its hard to set new boundaries or enforce the old ones when I'm telling him that i can't see any way of us staying together after this. He swears that there is no more contact and that he won't break that, but he's proven to be untrustworthy when it comes to her and his feelings for her. And at the same time, me hollering that it had better stay that way has lost its usefulness with a man who "knows" his marriage is ending anyway. It's the same with insisting he get individual therapy...I'm not offering him anything in return.
I've told him that I still love him, which I thought might trigger enough hope in him for him to get off his ass and start doing some serious heavy lifting, but when I don't deny that we're not reconciling, he shuts down.
I'm seeing our therapist alone tomorrow (we both go on Wednesday) to try to come up with ways to cope with all of this...and maybe some strategies for assessing what's possible and what's impossible here.
The bottom line is that I want my husband...but not THIS guy. And I don't know that my husband exists anymore...and if he does, if I can live with what THIS guy has done anyway.
Dana, I hope your therapist can help you sort through this. It's hard to enforce boundaries when you don't know where they are. For starters, you need to get clear on whether you're divorcing or not. If you are, then frankly your husband is right. He can pretty much do what he wants. If you want to try reconciliation, then any talk of divorce needs to be taken off the table. You can use it as a tool to scare him or pull him back into line. You're either trying to make it work, which means doing everything you can, or you're not. Once you're clear on that, then you can proceed. Doesn't mean you can't change your mind. Just means you proceed with those parameters.
You're both right. Even though he's not telling me that he'll be with her since I'm divorcing him anyway, he has no impetus to do anything but wallow in his own self pity right now.
He sees the therapist solo tonight and then we'll see him together tomorrow, so I'm hoping for some more clarity by then.
Dana, this woman sounds absolutely toxic and there are so many reasons why your husband should stay the hell away from her. Regardless of whether you decide to reconcile or not. Your husband isn't in a position to save this woman. He may have a part to play in her recent behaviour, but if he has any sense he will have no contact.
As for you right now, you need time, space and self care. Your probably feeling like you been hit by a train. And your in the midst of hurt and pain. You need to sit with your pain and decide how you will get through this next, hour, days and weeks to come. You have come to the right place, where all here for you. I feel your hurt.
Don't rush this, your answers will come, you will find your way again and whatever you decide along the way will be what is right for you. Keep posting sending you lots of love xxxx
She really is toxic, Sam. And he knows it. When I ask what he loves about her, he tells me that she can be very sweet (she's very similar to someone with multiple personalities), she adores him, she can be fun and sunny. But then he also acknowledges all of the bad. Seriously, she destroys lives left and right. I could write a book about the things this woman had done to people.
As I've said, I've pretty much told him that we can't reconcile...but I have tried to make him see that he needs to stay away from her regardless. He says that since he doesn't have plans to "be" with her, it doesn't matter. But we also know how seductive she is....if he's in contact, she will not stop trying to get a commitment from him. And then she will ultimately destroy him as well.
But he "loves" her and he says that's not something he can just turn off, so he worries about her...especially since he can see that she's spiraling out of control.
I think he knows he can't save her in the end, but he doesn't feel like it's okay to walk away from someone that you love when they're in that kind of state. He knows that this is an unhealthy relationship, but doesn't like not trying to take care of her.
He says that it's over...she's livid that she didn't get what she wanted and has told him to never speak to her again. He says that she won't contact him again....although he admits that he believes that she would relent if HE were the one to make contact (which he says he's not going to do...but he lies, so...). In any case, she seems to turn up like a bad penny, so I'm not betting on her being gone for good of her own volition. She's likely found some other man for the moment and will come chatting back around when that goes to hell like they always do.
I'll let you all know if I manage to figure out what's right for me, because, right now, my decision making skills are fried.
Dana, I'm so sorry for all your going through, your husband isn't being fair, he is still in his bubble and can't decide what he wants. If he wants you then there needs to be no contact no ifs or buts or he 'loves her' bullshit. It's that simple, he's deluded with this woman, and whilst he's still trying to 'help her' he'll never be able to be the husband you deserve. How would he feel if the shoe was on the other foot? And you were the one involved with another man.
Dana you have to look after yourself right now, you can't fix his shit that he has caused and why should you!! Take this time to ensure you look after you and your boys, your not responsible for him, I think you've been very gracious with him considering, that in itself shows what a wonderful person you are. Let us know how counselling goes, thinking of you xxx
The individual counseling session was very sad, eye-opening, depressing and somewhat empowering. Basically, by husband has taken a detour from our marriage and I'm running after him right now...and that needs to stop. I need to stop living in just feelings mode and start being logical and taking the necessary steps to protect myself and get my feet firmly planted on the ground. It was tough to hear, but all I'm getting out of this marriage is hurt right now and that may not be something that is salvagble or able to heal.
Our joint session tomorrow is now going to just be my H and then we'll both meet with the counselor together on Thursday, where we'll come up with a game plan...most likely how to separate in some form.
Dana, I'm glad your counselling session has helped you focus on what you need. As hard hitting as it is, we need to hear it from like you said a logical point of view. Of course your feelings matter, feelings are what drive us, however in this situation you must protect yourself. Well done for getting this far, you are on the right road. Sending you big hugs at this very challenging time xxx
Replenish, process and breath. At the stroke of midnight ... my H said i love you and im sorry, again ... i responded ... i forgive you, even tho i still feel the hurt. I thought long and hard about this ... looked up forgiveness as well as sought support here im comfortable with it in its not letting it go or saying its ok .. i took in what ladies here said ... forgiveness isnt wanting revenge or wishing harm and if thats the true definition then i really forgave long ago as i want the complete opposite for him, me and us. My h cried and i felt something heavy lift from me. Yes i did it for him but i also did it for me almost 10 mo out and a new year ahead somethings gotta give. I still think about it but its not as consuming and i try then to feel it and focus then on the now rather then obsess dwell or wish away ... knowing now that was at first a way to cope try to understand and process but now know it only holds me back as no matter how much i try to process i will never understand it all but i do have a bigger picture for a storyline that makes sense and i hope thats enough and i also know no matter how much i wish it away it will always be there only now i want to work on putting it in our rearview mirror some days that is easier then others. Another thing i learned i dont need to hold on to this remind H Or heal him .. he has to do that himself and thinks about it daily all by himself. I know we have a road ahead still ... forgiving and loving is a daily choice we all make and a positive attitude is half the battle at least thats my outlook right now i deserve happiness we all do. Heres to a hopeful thought that 2016 is better then last. 2015 wasnt all a loss ... perspective is a blessing even if the road to it was a battle. Happy New Year BWC Warriors or as another said ... unwhore the holidays lets make it unwhore the year lol ...
ReplyDeleteMarriage Box Poem ... we are working on filling our box not emptying it. Who knew going in marriage was so much work ... kids are work. Everything really important takes work .. you get out what you put in right
ReplyDeleteMost people get married believing a myth that marriage is beautiful box full of all the things they have longed for; Companionship, intimacy, friendship etc ... The truth is, that marriage at the start is an empty box, you must put something in before you can take anything out. There is no love in marriage, love is in people, and people put love in marriage. There is no romance in marriage, you have to infuse it into your marriage. A couple must learn the art, and form the habit of giving, loving, serving, praising, of keeping the box full. If you take out more than you put in, the box will be empty.
Wounded
DeleteYour words speak volumes! This morning h and I walked our lab around the block where I have watched the ow slowly driving by. H looked between houses and said look you can see our house! I said to him well that explains why she drives down that road. I then shared with him what I learned here... The best revenge for her is to continue to see us happy together and just moving on! I didn't trigger and I feel at peace for now! Happy New Year! May each of us continue to find peace and joy in the coming months!
Wise words, Wounded. Thank you for sharing them. In our quick-fix world, we want marriage to be easy. It's a huge myth that our culture sells.
DeleteAs for me healing is forgiving , for almost a year i always ask why he did not love me , why he treat his ow like a queen while me begging for love and attention and asking him to stop..and Then I realized its not me , its all up to him he's the want who messed up our marriage. Yes we do have shortcomings as a wife but not enough to give them
ReplyDeleteA reason to cheat . Healing is a process and accepting we could not change them, but we could change ourselves . Give time ladies when you came into your sense then you will realized that you are strong and brave enough to stand on your own. We dont know what will be the future but day by day try to find your inner peace and small things that will make us happy . Our happiness dont depend on them but on ourselves. Try to focus on yourself more , try to get up and pick up the broken you , in the end life is still beautiful ������
I would like to tattoo your post on my chest upside down so I could read it everyday. Thank you for sharing.
DeleteMy therapist said your exact same thing to me today.
ReplyDelete"What can we do to take care of YOU."
I don't feel the need to fix everyone or their relationships anymore. And I'm getting ready to sit down and do a watercolor painting. I'm learning to let things go and let God do the work.
Anne of VA
Hi ladies, I've been a regular on here in my earlier days post d day, 2 1/2 years post dday, went thru the whole process of reconciliation, therapy etc etc thought we were doing well considering. Then over Christmas he had some late nights something in my gut telling me things aren't right then I become suspicious and within days I get a confession he's been out to dinner with another woman, no fffuckin way did I see that one coming in a long shot. I'm sat here in bed with my eldest son who's in tears as his dad has just left on my orders. What the hell do I do
ReplyDeleteNow? How did I end up in this situation again? How dare he do this to me and think he can get away with it, I'm obviously still in shock and need some time to digest the last few hours. Not sure whats gonna happen tomorrow but I feel utterly cheated and betrayed all over again and overwhelmingly sad for my 2 boys aged 12 and 2. They just want daddy, what a selfish basterd to put me and his kids thru this again. I'm shell shocked I can't even tell you. Help xxx
Sam A,
DeleteI'm so sorry that he didn't appreciate the chance you gave him. I think you know what to do...it's just so hard to do it.
After all the pain you worked through, he's putting you through it again? You're absolutely right to be outraged. How dare he?? How dare he do that to your children (and make no mistake, HE is the one doing this to your children even though you're the one who asked him to leave).
I'm so sorry Sam. Sorry for the pain you're in and sorry he's too big an ass to recognize the gift the reconciliation.
We're here to offer whatever support you need.
Elle my 12 yr old keeps asking why I asked his dad to leave, how much of the truth should I tell him or none at all. I'm just so confused right now xx
DeleteIt's a tough call, a personal decision.
DeleteI didn't want the kids to know, but they were 22, 18 and 14 when the shit hit the fan. They are now 24, 20 and 16.
Our oldest knew within 5 minutes of me finding out. I had found something on the computer and confronted him as she walked down to the basement, she was so upset.
It was quite a while later before the boys knew.
It was hard. I found the boy's became very protective of me. They were extremely pissed off. I remember our 20 year old asking me how I could stay with his dad and our youngest saying it's nice that another woman is more important than our family. Our daughter wanted to punch the other woman in the face, said if she ever saw her she would.
I told them all that both of us wanted to try and work it out, but there were no guarantees.
Fortunately, things have worked out, so far. I have no doubt, we made the right decision, and the kids are happy about it. They see mom and dad are happy, they see us getting along. They are also disgusted with the affection, and I couldn't be more thrilled!!
Like I said, it's a personal decision. I will say this, I don't think you want to lie to them if questions are asked, afterall, that's what your husband did to you, to the family unit, just my thoughts. Good luck to you, I know it's tough. (((HUGS)))
Rachelle
My hubby's mistress is porn and I wish I had left years ago but I felt trapped financially ( I homeschool ) and I felt the kids wanted their dad.
DeleteWell...fast forward a 12 years later and I'm dealing with a suicidal 18 yo with a severe eating disorder ...ect. His addiction bled into my children.
I'm am SO sorry he did that to you again. I think you did the right thing by making him leave. Your kids need YOU to be healthy and not stuck in a constant cycle of PTSD and trauma which happened to me. My kids were robbed of the mom they needed b/c his SA changed me into something I'm not.
We separated in the home for over a year and my son gave up his room.
But I really don't feel love for him anymore.
God Bless and you'll be in my prayers.
Anne of VA
Thanks Elle, i feel like someone has pulled the rug from under my feet. I'm so sad for me and my children, they are the innocent ones in this and I hate the fact that if they wanted him back id do it but not necessarily for the right reasons. Has anyone been in this position where they have forgiven but been betrayed later down the line, what did you do? Any advice is greatly appreciated feel like I'm in such a bad place right now. Xx
ReplyDeleteSam,
DeleteI think you stick to the boundaries you created around reconciliation. Which are, generally, I will give you a second chance. Not a third and not a fourth. A second chance. Don't screw it up.
As for what to tell your son, without giving up too much detail, I would simply explain that honesty is paramount in relationships and this his father was dishonest about something very important. If he asks further, Ii would tell him that some problems are adult problems and that he doesn't need to concern himself with them. As painful as it is, you are showing him how to set boundaries for himself as he grows. How to respect himself. How to insist upon respect from others. Those are hard lessons but invaluable. Assure him that he will always be loved by both of you no matter what happens. But that actions have consequences, which is why it's so important to think things through. And then...let him be sad. Let him be angry (without taking responsibility for his anger). And let yourself feel sad and angry. You've lots to feel sad and angry about. But that doesn't make your husband's behaviour any less unacceptable.
Hang in there, Sam A. This is utterly unfair. But you've survived before and you will survive this. Stick to your boundaries. You deserve better than this. You deserve respect and integrity and honesty.
Thank you so much Elle. That's great advice wish I wasn't back for the same thing but glad I've got you and your ladies to support me. Thankyou I'll keep you posted
ReplyDeleteHi Sam A,
DeleteMy heart is hurting for you. Elle's advice is perfect. Nothing to add except know that we are rooting for you and your kids.
peace.
Sam. I have followed your story ... respect you and know you are a strong and brave woman. You are so very valuable and precious. Sadly your husband doesn't get that ... he cannot see that because he does not value himself. If he loved himself he would know what a treasure he has before him. Years ago my friend was forced to leave her abusive, multiple cheating husband. Yes, for a time her 15 year old son resented her (he had even witnessed the abuse time and again), yet as he matured he came to see that she did what she did for her and her boys. I know your husband is not physically abusing you ...
ReplyDeleteSam, you will do what is right for you and your children, that I know.
Love & hugs
Thanks Rachelle, mbs and Elle sound advice. After much thought, hurt and seeing my son so distraught yesterday I decided to let my husband back. I wanted the hurt to go away and to some degree it has. However the hard work now has to start again. I have laid down some boundaries which I
ReplyDeleteHope will again stop this reoccurring although I know there are no gurantees I understand that.
I've insisted he sees a counsellor on his own he has so many unresolved issues from childhood. And maybe some counselling together. I have demanded telephone numbers if his friends so I can always contact him when out if need be. I have also said I need to know where he is going, who's he's with and when he will be back. It's standard stuff that I do already but I want him to do the same.
As for him saying he just went for a meal with an old Uni friend and nothing more to it, I'm not sure I believe it. I don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise but I do know that he lied about where he was and arranged this meal with her out of town. Wholly wrong and disrespectful, I sometimes wonder why I have to break it down to make him understand. I can't get my head around why he thought doing that would be ok.
I'm going through the emotions at present, angry that he had caused me so much unnecessary pain all for his selfish bloody needs!!!
Thankyou ladies for offering up your support. I'm so grateful. Xxxx
I can't believe some of these guys need it spelled out for them either. It boils down to this: If you wouldn't do this with your wife standing right beside you and listening to every word, then you shouldn't be doing it. It's really that simple.
DeleteHang in there, Sam A. Stick to your boundaries. It sounds, since he's still defending himself and his actions, that he doesn't get it at all. I think you need to brace yourself. You might even want to see a lawyer about how you might proceed if this happens again. Your husband seems willfully ignorant.
Sam I feel for you so much, I have four children between the ages now of 15 and 8 but at the time two years younger. It is incredible how singleminded and thoughtless they can be, not truly considering how their actions will severely affect the whole family, especially the children. I am two years out (today!) but had a second d-day nine months after. This I can see as not working through what she/the addiction truly was doing for him, not really facing up to it. Your husband is still dancing to whatever allure these liaisons have for him, ego boost, filling low self-esteem, thrill of the chase whatever and despite the counselling and so on. This new revelation means that he is still wired for deception and has not done enough to cut the wires. This might be the massive shock he needs to realise he has not done enough but 1) he might be one that never learns 2) the risk of more pain to you is great given how far along the road you are. It is an awful situation for him to have put you in and as Elle says he is the one that is hurting the children. He is the one that has chosen to please himself despite the dreadful consequences to others. Even if he is now horrified at himself (is he?) he may have exploded one too many bombs and you might have to regretfully part to save your sanity. I will be thinking of you.
ReplyDeleteSam,
ReplyDeleteI just read this and my heart breaks for you and your children. I agree with everyone here and Elle, no matter the pain your boundaries are there to protect you and your children, emotionally, physically, financially, spiritually.
My three daughters know everything and when D-Day hit the youngest was just turning 13. I believe the truth always sets us free no matter how shattering because it leads us to deeper possibilities, to light and strength versus the death of secrecy, deceit and darkness..... and we have found this to be true no matter what (this horrible tsunami of betrayal) has done to us as a family
Shield up to this sorrow and new agony. Beloved sister we are here with you, always a whisper, thought and prayer away.
Melissa, fragments of hope and Valkyrie great words of wisdom.
ReplyDeleteNot sure whether this is harder than the first time around. At least the first time I knew what I was dealing with (a full sexual affair). Now I only have a restaurant receipt to go by which as I said above said was an old Uni friend but I'm not convinced. We are booked into counselling next week.
I agree foh he is still wired for deception and I think more work is needed to help him look at his behaviours and consequences of them. He's not horrified with his behaviour as he claims it was a catch up with an old friend (hmmm) maybe I found out before it went any further. Whatever the situation he now knows it was wrong to keep from me and can see why I am so hurt.
Here's hoping we will crack his mind boggling thinking and get through this. It's a blip in my road of healing but im sure if we both want to be together we will get there.
Thank you lovely ladies your all a god send seriously :) xxxxx
Sam A, It's not the "catching up with a friend" that's the problem. It's the hiding it. It's the secrecy. People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.
DeleteI love this quote. I keep coming back to it daily. I just feel a real struggle lately. I am not sure if it is related to the holidays or not. I guess somewhat of a roller coaster. Things can feel great and then wham anxiety and distress are there wearing me down. I know some of it is due to a few triggers/blips. I do not think my husband totally understands how a few minor behaviors can trigger so much upset with me. He wants to believe everything is great and moving along and past us. It is really hard. Since May I have asked for him to set aside one time a week to talk. And he does not think it is necessary. We have covered everything etc. he is willing to talk but then it means I need to ask to talk. Which is not easy for me. When is a good time really never. There are plans, kids around, work, lots of happy times, or it seems late at night is our only time. I have learned talking late at night is not productive for either of us. So I sit and think when can I bring this up. So I have been carrying around a lot of resentment related to this.
ReplyDeleteWell one night we were out and he was distracted and irritated by things unrelated to me nothing related to the affairs at all. But he was in a mood not very social, so I was on my phone catching on posts on this website since I had not looked in a few days. Well he asked what I was looking at. He was not thrilled. Well in the end he admitted all his actions are him trying to have this be in our past. The less we talk about it the better move past it etc. his major solutions is corrective emotional experiences. This is all great. Yet I explained to him I have known about some of this for 10 months and supposedly all of it for under 5 months. This is very different from him who made all these decisions and has lived with it for 10 years and is happier and feels the best he ever has in his adult life. So the good news is since then he has been more open and even asked how I was. I guess my biggest hang up is how do I know he has told me the truth after dragging out the details for so long. He says there is no way for him to tell me everything. He has no way of remembering it all. I get it and I never have said tell me the exact day and time. It is just some things he has told me do not add up. His reasons contradict themselves. So I am struggling at what point can I let it go or is it too much.
The other main struggle I have now is now he could treat me like crap and do all he did for 10 years, tell me he is not "in love with me", among many other things and now I am what means the most to him. I find it so confusing. I am so the opposite of him and I think that is part of this. I have honestly never changed from the point of what my character is and ever was. I just think who is he? He says it was a huge wake up call and that is how he can feel this way. I don't know it feels so extreme to me. Ugh wish this wasn't all so confusing.
Oh one last thing most recently my therapist said I tolerate too much. He said he would not classify me as an enabler but that I tolerate too much. I am struggling with that, I am not the kind of person to tell someone what to do and not super bossy. I mean of course as far as the affairs go we have clear boundaries set no contact etc..
ReplyDeleteYet he was saying time on the phone or iPad texting and emailing. Amount of time connecting with friends that are single or not marriage focused. I don't know this is a hard one. My husband has pulled away from his friends a ton and all on his own. But how far do we set parameters and rules.
Hopeful30,
DeleteWow. I could have written a lot of what you said. I think a lot of what you're describing can be resolved by you learning how to set healthy boundaries. For instance, you've asked him to set aside time each week to talk, which is a perfectly reasonable request and one that many of us have made. (It's also one that could be handled in therapy if you two were in couples counselling, which might be a really good idea.) The fact that he doesn't think you "need" it isn't for him to determine. Your heartbreak, your rules, as Steam put it on this site. You get to set the rules. He's been setting them for far too long without your knowledge. So...you don't back down. You need to decide how to handle it if he won't make time to talk. Do you insist he's on the couch? Do you file for separation? This isn't about being manipulative, it's about setting boundaries to help you feel safe and valued in the relationship. When he refuses to honour those boundaries, there needs to be some consequences. You get to decide what those consequences are. Letting resentment build isn't healthy for you or your relationship. Perhaps the consequence is simply stating, clearly and unequivocally, "when you refuse to set aside time for something that I think is important, it makes me feel devalued and dismissed. I just want you to know that." And then leave it at that. Say it as many times as you need to. It will help you NOT feel resentful because YOU are honouring yourself even if he can't. So much of our resentment stems from us not standing up for ourselves. We can't expect others to treat us with respect when we don't treat ourselves with respect.
I understand your husband's desire to "move on." It's a familiar refrain from men who find their own behaviour shameful. But that's not their choice. This takes a long time to heal. We're here because of choices THEY made. Like it or not, if they want to rebuild their marriage, it's better for everyone if they show up and do the hard work of supporting us through this.
Hopeful30, this isn't confusing. You're just trying to alter your response to this pain in a way that pleases him and creates the least hassle. But it doesn't work that way. Your feelings are legitimate. They deserve your and his attention.
It helps to hear this. Yes a lot of this I know. Part of what I feel our issues are the fact he is in the mental health business. So as I tell my therapist about what has changed and he even says it is remarkable based on where he was. My husband says and does "the right thing" 99.9% of the time. It almost does feel perfect or even too perfect. I do worry he knows the right thing to do or say. I mean he is the therapist and has all the training. He has very set ideas on what is required based on that. I have been asserting myself that his path and needs to healing might be different than mine. Another major annoyance which I have faced our entire relationship is when I bring up a concern about us or our kids he always says it is nothing compared to what he sees in his office. My reply is always that is not me or us and I don't care about them. I can see now the issues he has which concerns me if he can manage those. He has acknowledged them yet not sure how much he can or is doing about them. Time will tell. Lots more work to do. Thank you for all your thoughts.
DeleteHopeful30,
DeleteThis isn't the pain olympics. Just because someone has it "worse" than you (though, let's be honest, it's a pretty subjective thing. I've had more than one woman on this site who considers the betrayal by her spouse to be "worse" than the rape she endured as a child) doesn't make your feelings invalid. I hope your husband's approach with his clients is a bit more compassionate. Imagine going to see a therapist who dismisses you with "well, so-and-so has it a lot worse than you so stop whining. That will be $150 please."
It's funny because I used to beat myself up for being so sad when I knew there were people in the world who'd lost their families in accidents, fled war zones, etc. And my therapist reminded me over and over that their pain doesn't eclipse mine. I'm entitled to my experience and to my response to my experience. Betrayal, as so many experts attest, can be traumatizing. To be told that someone has it worse is not only unhelpful, it's harmful.
Repeat after me: I am entitled to my feelings. I am entitled to my feelings. I am entitled to my feelings...
Hi Sam, I feel a connection to you thru this and you were among those who nurtured, inspired, and guided me on DDay (2 yrs ago Nov.) and thereafter. We are afterall, all united in a unique, be it painful way. I just read your most recent post and I just want to reach out to you with a hug and any support I can give. You are a strong amazing woman for hanging onto him and your marriage all this time. I pray you find answers as you navigate in once-again troubled waters. We are all here for you.
ReplyDeleteJ.
J,
DeleteThank you for your support. I'm so glad I helped you in your healing. That makes me feel so touched. :) I'm so lucky to have you ladies in my life. Thank you xxx
Dear Hopeful 30,
ReplyDeleteI learned in therapy the person who has the least invested in a relationship is the one likely to have an affair. My therapist told me I don't expect enough. She helped me to see I thought I didn't didn't deserve it. My husband had me convinced that I'm critical and nag him. Yes to some extent I did. But on somethings I just didn't expect what NORMAL woman expect in a NORMAL marriage. I didn't know what normal was. What you expect is tied to your self esteem. The woman with low self esteem doesnt expect much because they think so little of themselves that they don't deserve to be treated kindly, respectfully. It is hard to build up self esteem after being cheated on. Really hard because the I wasn't good enough monster thoughts is everywhere especially if you were there already prior to the affair. The problem is I don't know what is reasonable to tolerate. I'm still learning that part. Is it reasonable to tolerate this but not that? You have to decide what you expect and what you don't then stick to it. My husband somewhere along the way said "Why didn't you call me out?" I thought I don't know but I should have. My therapy was one year about the affair and PTSD. The other year was about my self esteem and why I expected less, accepted less and tolerated his selfish behavior.
We have a no phone rule at dinner, at any dinner. If I sense conversation is lacking or either of us is not in a good mood. I scribble on a note 5 questions to ask him "not affair" related, stick in my pocket, that I want to know about him. I'm pleasantly surprised how much he opens up to me and I learn things about him I didn't know. Corny in today's age of technology yes and it's old fashion but there has never been a time he didn't surprise me. I also state my answers. He has trouble opening up with his emotions. When my husband took the OW out to dinner, I figured she didn't look at her phone. I never miss an opportunity to communicate good, bad, shouting, crying or whatever I feel at the time. Can I ramble on or what?
Lynn,
DeleteThat's such a great idea re. the five questions. Everyone everywhere should try it. None of us needs to be looking at our phones when we're face to face with another human being.
And yes, the "I'm not enough" monster wreaks havoc on us. It's why, however, healing from betrayal can also launch us into a much healthier relationship with ourselves. We can finally come to understand that we are enough,have always been enough. WE can learn better ways to create boundaries. We can learn to respect our feelings and wants and needs simply because they're ours.
What is reasonable to tolerate? Nothing that makes you feel less about yourself. Nothing that feels like a threat to your marriage. You are always free to state what you want and need and he is always free to negotiate. That's what relationships are about. You matter. He matters. And together you create a relationship that honours both of you.
Thanks for your reply. A lot of that hits home. I think the hardest thing for me is when our relationship feels so right but then I think yikes I better protect myself. And am I slipping back am I being too relaxed. I am speaking up more and for that matter when we were pre d day I did too. I challenged my husband regularly. He always turned the tables on me and there was always an excuse of work. He was around a lot but just detached. Everything was my fault. I should have seen that and I guess asked him to change or leave. But it was all so grey and way too many days and moments felt real and genuine. He still claims they were for him too.
ReplyDeleteI think a major issue for me is I grew up an only child and a latch key kid. From a young age being independent and taking care of myself was expected. It was viewed as a good trait. I carry that over now to life. I am someone that enjoys and even craves time alone and relishes in it. I think maybe that is a major reason my husband wanted to be with me, I am not a combative or challenging type of person and have never kept tabs on anyone.
Things are a million times better between us. I feel like I can trust him but then I get a nagging feeling about it all. Hopefully time will help.
Well, the last couple of weeks have been pretty horrible, only to get even worse in the last few days.
ReplyDeleteTo briefly recap, about 3 weeks ago, 10 months from D-Day #1, I found out that my h had been back in contact with the OW. She had come to him when her world blew up in her face because he is "the only person she ever loved and trusted", she has no friends (her own doing, she's absolutely poisonous by all accounts) and her family doesn't particularly care for her, nor are they local. She's mentally ill with some pretty extreme behaviors due to sexual abuse by her father, and can be dangerous. My H told me he felt sorry for her and wanted to try to help her by being a friend. She can be very self destructive, engaging in risky sexual behavior (going to bars to find strangers to have sex with), and he said that he feels protective of her and wants to keep her from potentially being hurt or killed. She was someone he loved, even if it wasn't a healthy, "in love" love and he didn't want to turn his back on her. This is all according to him.
He told me it was purely platonic, but inappropriately flirtatious. She's incredibly flirty and complimentary by nature, as she's pretty much a professional seductress. And some part of him falls for that. He has very low self esteem from a really crappy childhood and isn't what most women would call handsome. He spent most of his childhood being told he was ugly by his female peers, while enduring emotional abuse and neglect at home, and dealing with the fallout from a period of sexual molestation when he was 7 that he never told anyone about. So her adoration and constant compliments trigger something in him. And he returns it in kind in order to keep that feeling.
But he insisted that it was not "romantic".
But, he finally admitted the other day that there was one physical incident. She climbed into his lap and they kissed and she was "grinding" on him. He says he stopped it when she went for his belt buckle and nothing like that happened again.
He also admitted that he does actually love her...that the feeling returned during this new contact. He says that it's nothing like the love he has for me and he doesn't want to "be" with her, have a future with her or have a physical relationship with her, but it's more than a platonic "buddy" love. He wants to protect her from herself and know that she's okay. He told me that he's doesn't feel okay with not being able to help her, that it makes him unhappy to not know if she's alright.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteThe last time they met, she asked him if he would ever make a commitment to her and he told her no. He had already told her repeatedly that he would never leave his wife and that he loved me. She was They didn't speak for 2 weeks because I found out about the contact the following day and we sent a no-contact email, but he aadmitted that she called him last week and screamed at him for leading her on, accused him of driving by her house, trying to call her housemate/landlady (who she hates) and other stalker behaviors. I do know for a fact that none of her accusations are true. This was not surprising to him because she accuses every man she's ever been with of the same thing. She gets angry or her feeling get hurt, and she starts making paranoid claims, sometimes going so far as to file false police reports. Did I mention she's mentally ill?
But he still worries about her. It's mind boggling.
To say I was devastated even more by all of this is an understatement. I honestly don't know what to think or do. We're back in MC with a new counselor who specializes in issues like this, but I can't see how we're going to make this marriage work. We haven't had a session since these new bombshells, however.
I've told him from the start of this new betrayal that I don't think I'm going to get past this one. He knew the damage he had caused the last time and allowed it to happen again. I've told him that I ultimately want a divorce, but there's still that part of me that loves this man I've been with for 25 years, who still sees the good man he used to be. Seriously, this guy was loyal to a fault...but now...
He cries and swears he wants this marriage, that I'm the love of his life and his soul mate...but those just sound like empty words now because I've heard them before. He's swearing that he'll never speak to her again, that he knows any relationship with her is destructive, that he truly knew it all along but got caught up in his white knight role with a damsel in distress who is both a "Jezebel" AND weak, helpless and pathetic. He swears that he was encouraging her to return to her old home across the country and believes that is ultimately where she'll go since she has absolutely nothing here. He also, the absolute idiot, says that he didn't think of this as an affair. That he knew he was doing the wrong thing by lying to me, but he rationalized it by telling himself that he wasn't looking for a sexual relationship, that he was helping her get her life together and that it would be short lived. He also swears that he had realized toward the end that he was playing with fire, that she was showing her true colors again and starting to act sociopathic and bizarre and that he was trying to figure out a way to end the friendship, but didn't know how to do that without causing her further damage. Again, he "loves" her and doesn't want to see her hurt.
WTH is my life??
Ladies, I'm all over the place I know. I think I just needed to get this all out in this safe space. Advice is greatly appreciated, but understanding and commiseration are just fine, since there are no easy answers.
Hi Dana,
DeleteNo worries re. where you post. It's all okay.
I'm so sorry for all of this but I think you know the answer to your question. You set your boundaries and your husband violated them. He had contact with her, he "loves" her, he lied to you about her, he violated his own "no contact" with her.
I'm sorry he's sorry...but he created this situation.
I'm not saying you have to march into a divorce lawyer, but I do think you need to follow through with the consequences of violating your boundaries. I don't know know what you told him but is he sleeping on the couch? Moving out? I hope to God he's in serious therapy for his issues, which should absolutely be one of your demands for reconciliation.
His loyalty must be to you. Just because you're not crazy doesn't mean you don't deserve to be protected and cherished. It doesn't mean you don't need him. He seems to have fallen, like many men, for the whole "white knight" scenario where he feels like a hero for saving some screwed up woman from herself. I'm sorry she's had such a crappy life. Nobody deserves that pain. But he's NOT helping her. He can't be available to her in a healthy way and she can't respect boundaries. So it's off limits. That's not negotiable. She needs a therapist, not a boyfriend who's married.
Dana, stick to your guns. You can love him and still insist that he honour your marriage. You can be sad and still know that you're not doing yourself any favours by not holding him fully accountable for lying and having contact with her again. He screwed up. It's up to you now to determine the cost of his screw up.
That's just it Elle. I don't know what the price for this needs to be. Yes, I've told him that I ultimately want a divorce...which has caused issues with his feelings of rejection. He spirals from weepily saying that he loves me more than anything in the world into somewhat angrily asking why he should prove it when I'm already done with him....and "why do you care, you don't want me anymore anyway". He seems to think I want him to "dance" so that I can have the satusfaction of seeing him devastated and left with nothing (however, I do think part of this is his severe depression talking, he gets very irrational when he's in the thick of it and I mentioned before that he went off his Prozac to try St. John's Wort, which used to work on his seasonal depression, but I don't think it works for him when he's at this low of a place.)
DeleteI'll admit, I've said some ugly things, called him a lot of names, but he knows me better than to think I'm that sadistic. I have no desire to see him suffer, I just don't want to be the one suffering anymore.
We are still sleeping in the same bed. We don't have an extra room and we both have back/neck issues that make the sofa unbearable for sleeping. We also have 2 teenaged boys, one of whom is mildly intellectually disabled and is definitely picking up on the palpable tension in our house. He wouldn't understand why dad was sleeping on the sofa and he's already been having some issues based on how this is effecting the mood around here...I'm rarely seen without red eyes anymore and my h looks like a deer in headlights one minute and a grumpy bear the next.. The older one is rarely home, so he seems rather oblivious, though....too busy living his life, thank God. We've discussed separation...but we both feel that it would really just be a step toward divorce and aren't ready emotionally to figure out the details with everything so raw.
Its hard to set new boundaries or enforce the old ones when I'm telling him that i can't see any way of us staying together after this. He swears that there is no more contact and that he won't break that, but he's proven to be untrustworthy when it comes to her and his feelings for her. And at the same time, me hollering that it had better stay that way has lost its usefulness with a man who "knows" his marriage is ending anyway. It's the same with insisting he get individual therapy...I'm not offering him anything in return.
I've told him that I still love him, which I thought might trigger enough hope in him for him to get off his ass and start doing some serious heavy lifting, but when I don't deny that we're not reconciling, he shuts down.
I'm seeing our therapist alone tomorrow (we both go on Wednesday) to try to come up with ways to cope with all of this...and maybe some strategies for assessing what's possible and what's impossible here.
The bottom line is that I want my husband...but not THIS guy. And I don't know that my husband exists anymore...and if he does, if I can live with what THIS guy has done anyway.
Dana,
DeleteI hope your therapist can help you sort through this. It's hard to enforce boundaries when you don't know where they are.
For starters, you need to get clear on whether you're divorcing or not. If you are, then frankly your husband is right. He can pretty much do what he wants. If you want to try reconciliation, then any talk of divorce needs to be taken off the table. You can use it as a tool to scare him or pull him back into line. You're either trying to make it work, which means doing everything you can, or you're not.
Once you're clear on that, then you can proceed. Doesn't mean you can't change your mind. Just means you proceed with those parameters.
I just saw this response from you, Elle.
DeleteYou're both right. Even though he's not telling me that he'll be with her since I'm divorcing him anyway, he has no impetus to do anything but wallow in his own self pity right now.
He sees the therapist solo tonight and then we'll see him together tomorrow, so I'm hoping for some more clarity by then.
Oh darn. I posted all of this on the wrong thread...meant for it to go in "stuck"!
ReplyDeleteIs there any way to fix that or should I just copy and paste once it posts here?
ReplyDeleteDana, this woman sounds absolutely toxic and there are so many reasons why your husband should stay the hell away from her. Regardless of whether you decide to reconcile or not. Your husband isn't in a position to save this woman. He may have a part to play in her recent behaviour, but if he has any sense he will have no contact.
ReplyDeleteAs for you right now, you need time, space and self care. Your probably feeling like you been hit by a train. And your in the midst of hurt and pain. You need to sit with your pain and decide how you will get through this next, hour, days and weeks to come. You have come to the right place, where all here for you. I feel your hurt.
Don't rush this, your answers will come, you will find your way again and whatever you decide along the way will be what is right for you. Keep posting sending you lots of love xxxx
She really is toxic, Sam. And he knows it. When I ask what he loves about her, he tells me that she can be very sweet (she's very similar to someone with multiple personalities), she adores him, she can be fun and sunny. But then he also acknowledges all of the bad. Seriously, she destroys lives left and right. I could write a book about the things this woman had done to people.
DeleteAs I've said, I've pretty much told him that we can't reconcile...but I have tried to make him see that he needs to stay away from her regardless. He says that since he doesn't have plans to "be" with her, it doesn't matter. But we also know how seductive she is....if he's in contact, she will not stop trying to get a commitment from him. And then she will ultimately destroy him as well.
But he "loves" her and he says that's not something he can just turn off, so he worries about her...especially since he can see that she's spiraling out of control.
I think he knows he can't save her in the end, but he doesn't feel like it's okay to walk away from someone that you love when they're in that kind of state. He knows that this is an unhealthy relationship, but doesn't like not trying to take care of her.
He says that it's over...she's livid that she didn't get what she wanted and has told him to never speak to her again. He says that she won't contact him again....although he admits that he believes that she would relent if HE were the one to make contact (which he says he's not going to do...but he lies, so...). In any case, she seems to turn up like a bad penny, so I'm not betting on her being gone for good of her own volition. She's likely found some other man for the moment and will come chatting back around when that goes to hell like they always do.
I'll let you all know if I manage to figure out what's right for me, because, right now, my decision making skills are fried.
Dana, I'm so sorry for all your going through, your husband isn't being fair, he is still in his bubble and can't decide what he wants. If he wants you then there needs to be no contact no ifs or buts or he 'loves her' bullshit. It's that simple, he's deluded with this woman, and whilst he's still trying to 'help her' he'll never be able to be the husband you deserve. How would he feel if the shoe was on the other foot? And you were the one involved with another man.
ReplyDeleteDana you have to look after yourself right now, you can't fix his shit that he has caused and why should you!! Take this time to ensure you look after you and your boys, your not responsible for him, I think you've been very gracious with him considering, that in itself shows what a wonderful person you are. Let us know how counselling goes, thinking of you xxx
The individual counseling session was very sad, eye-opening, depressing and somewhat empowering. Basically, by husband has taken a detour from our marriage and I'm running after him right now...and that needs to stop. I need to stop living in just feelings mode and start being logical and taking the necessary steps to protect myself and get my feet firmly planted on the ground. It was tough to hear, but all I'm getting out of this marriage is hurt right now and that may not be something that is salvagble or able to heal.
ReplyDeleteOur joint session tomorrow is now going to just be my H and then we'll both meet with the counselor together on Thursday, where we'll come up with a game plan...most likely how to separate in some form.
Dana, I'm glad your counselling session has helped you focus on what you need. As hard hitting as it is, we need to hear it from like you said a logical point of view. Of course your feelings matter, feelings are what drive us, however in this situation you must protect yourself. Well done for getting this far, you are on the right road. Sending you big hugs at this very challenging time xxx
ReplyDelete