- The OW debate seems to be showing up more and more on here, so I wanted to share a few things from my story.
In therapy, my H and I had some brutally frank conversations. It took a while to get him to open up but when he did, it all came out. One of the “reasons” behind his A was our crumpling marriage. I couldn’t deny that. We were two people who co-existed in the same house with little connection at all. Days would go by without him having much to say and I just nagged and nagged like usual. It doesn’t excuse his actions but it’s the honest truth of what we were. I learned that my nagging was actually an attempt to get him to pay attention to me. Even bad attention was attention and I was yearning for that. I would constantly yell at him to give me an opinion on something but then I would just override anything he said and make the decision on my own anyways. He felt that I didn’t value him, his opinion or his input on anything so why would he bother to give it any more. One day in therapy, I was raging about the OW, how she seduced him and my husband cracked. He actually said to me “I did this to you! I DID! You think I’m so weak and feeble minded that I’m just nothing, that I could be so blindly tricked into doing this awful thing, that I wasn’t even capable of making this f&@king decision either?!” It really was a breakthrough for me when I realized how little I have made this man feel he was that he was grasping to even be acknowledged for doing something this awful. This was a decision that he made that I couldn’t override him on. I guess the whole bad attention is still attention thing was at play on his part as well.
The other thing that stuck with me was him laughing about the OW seducing him. He told me how the OW had so many insecurities that she’d probably take it as a compliment if someone thought so much of her to have this hypnotic power over men. And that’s when I stopped giving her that power in my mind. She has nothing on me.
I do believe many affairs start with two lonely people looking for something that is missing in their life. It’s not right, it’s so wrong and hurtful but I do think it boils down to that in many cases. The majority of happy men do not cheat. The majority of happy women do not cheat. [ELLE'S NOTE: WHILE I AGREE WITH THIS IN SOME CASES, STATISTICS SHOW THAT THE MAJORITY OF MEN WHO CHEAT CONSIDER THEMSELVES "HAPPY" IN THEIR MARRIAGE. AFFAIRS ARE OFTEN AN ESCAPE FROM OTHER STRESSES, OR A CHANCE TO FEEL YOUNG AND SEXY AGAIN.] As much as it still hurts me, he found something in her even if it was just temporarily. And I blame him for that, just like he asked me to. He was right, he did this to me. I have forgiven him and we are moving towards being better together but I blame solely him. I can’t vilify this OW any more than I vilify him because he was the one who was supposed to cherish me and forsake others. He was the one I had built a life with. He had promised to be my partner in life. To forgive him and understand his flaws did make me think how she probably has her own demons that she’s struggling with. I do still have mean and nasty thoughts towards her but it’s fading every day and sometimes I hope she gets the help she needs so that she can have a second chance at life, too, just like I have given him. (And, then some days, I still wish she loses all her hair overnight, gains 100 pounds, gets horrible adult acne...!!!)As others have posted, there is NO satisfaction in contacting her. There’s even less satisfaction in outing her to others. I say this from experience. You may think you’ll get some satisfaction but there’s none. Just none. It only makes you feel sadder. I exposed some before we started therapy. It only led to even more self-doubt and self-loathing on my part and a lot of gossip around town about how I was the crazy one. People may agree that you were wronged but they are very uncomfortable with a woman ranting and raving and pointing the finger! I heard more than a few “no wonder he cheated” comments which only fuelled my hysteria! One of my lowest moments in life was yelling at her 80-year-old parents about how their daughter was a whore and I hoped they were proud of her. If I could take that one action back, I would in a second. After I was hung up on by them, I just crumpled and wondered what I had come to. I felt I couldn’t hold my head up any higher than she could, I had handed her that power that I could be just as hurtful as her. And the shame I feel that my children know I did these things is another burden I bear. I teach them all the time that two wrongs don’t make a right, always keep your dignity… and it’s hard for me to not be embarrassed of my actions. I understand them, I have forgiven myself, I understand any one in our position lashing out but looking back, I just am not proud.For all these reasons, I say let it go with obsession with the OW. I’ve read some stories on here of BS who admitted they were an OW long ago and we still support them because of their pain! And we do that because we are good and compassionate people on here. Take your energy and focus on him. Focus on learning why he did what he did. You have to understand why HE did this in order to move forward. It doesn't matter why she did, it only matters why he participated. Focus on what you have done to hurt him. And then solely focus on you getting stronger as a couple. Don’t let thoughts of her continue to ruin any progress you are making as a couple. It's easier said than done but don’t let her continue to be a part of your marriage, she didn’t belong in it before and she doesn’t belong in it now either.
The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
Wednesday, January 27, 2016
Warrior Post: What You Really Need to Know About the Other Woman
"Anonymous" posted her story on another part of this site in response to what she noticed was a lot of talk and concern and obsession with the Other Woman. Her words are poignant and painful but it's clear she's taken a clear-eyed look at her marriage and the role she played in the breakdown of it. As we make very very clear on this site, nobody is to blame for their husband's cheating. That's on him. And not all marriages that experience infidelity are "bad". But some are. And Anonymous took a forensic accounting of her own marriage and what had happened in it and then used that knowledge to understand her husband's affair and how the two of them could rebuild a marriage from the rubble. ~Elle
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My h and I discussed at great length what led him down that path! Loneliness, middle age, feeling like he was only needed as a financial security. Seeing the depth of pain and hurt I was living through made him accept the fear he had of hurting me in the first place. We continue to discuss issues that trigger me and he is for the most part helpful in getting me through them. My accomplishment is now I can manage my triggers inside my head and calm whatever insecurities pop up when I trigger. My h owned up to how messed up his thinking was during that time and he wants to be a better man for both of us! So far he is proving himself a much better man!
ReplyDeleteAmen to that, Theresa.
DeleteWhoa! That post! Out of the mouth of betrayed babes. Great reminder. Great Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteMy husband was happy in our marriage. Which is part of why I was so blindsided. But he wasn't happy with HIMSELF. That's the key. He's a recovering porn addict, he was seeking a high to make himself feel better. Ironically, because the porn addiction was making him feel like dirt, he would seek another high to make himself feel better, which is of course like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it. Once I understood this, I could finally accept it really wasn't about me. He was seeking for something that was missing inside of himself, and that was a need that no one could fill, not even the OW. He had to learn to deal with the root of what caused that missing space and stop trying to fill it with porn highs.
ReplyDeleteI know not every unfaithful husband is a porn or sex addict, but I think it's a similar thing. Someone who cheats is trying to fill a void in themselves. It's not a failure of their partner. An affair doesn't fill that void, either. For a while, it may give them the illusion that it does, but it doesn't.
Gee
DeleteWhat you say about something missing and wrong inside of him is exactly how my h explained the why of the affair. The only part he can not find words to explain was the how... How could you be doing all those secret things and still look me in the eyes as if all is great in the world. He tried explaining that he did not think of (us) except when he was with me. Sometimes referred to as compartmentalizations. Boundaries he had with her included no discussion about our marriage past the initial I have doubts about my marriage. He told me she once asked him if we still had sex on the weekends and when he told her yes it made her angry but not enough to leave him alone. He says this discussion with her was when he first tried to end the affair. He was happy in our marriage but as you say there was a broken part of him that led to his actions during that time. Like you, I had to understand the root cause in order to understand it really never was about me. That was very hard to get through my emotional ups and down. Life is getting back to a more normal flow and I am so glad for the women like you Gee, that continue to share insights that propel me forward!
This rings soo, soo true in my case, "Someone who cheats is trying to fill a void in themselves. It's not a failure of their partner. An affair doesn't fill that void, either. For a while, it may give them the illusion that it does, but it doesn't."
DeleteGee & Theresa.....same here as to my husband's explanation. It wasn't our marriage or me, it was all about him. He is dealing with his 'whys' in his counselling and facing his demons. The 'how' is just as hard to take like you say Theresa. How he could so easily look me in the eye and lie. Compartmentalisation is very hard to accept, even when it's explained by our counsellor. I get it but I still don't get it as I'm not that person. He is trying so hard to sort himself out, get to the root of his issues and win me back. He's a shadow of his former self at the damage and horror he has caused. I'm still figuring out if I can live with it and if I have enough left in me for him to start our marriage again.
ReplyDeleteElle - to your point about people in happy marriages cheating...I obviously agree too and also read a v interesting article I would like to share. It was published in a paper over here at the weekend. Unfortunately their website is behind a paywall or I'd copy & paste the link. Is there any way of uploading photos? Worst case I can type it all out! It's entitled 'cheating & the happy marriage: a new understanding of adultery'.
I found it to be a really good read as it resonated with my situation so much.
Coping,
DeleteI'd love to read it but don't think I can post it here since it's behind a paywall. Perhaps you can quote some pertinent parts of it that really resonated with you.
I am one year and one month past D-Day. My husband and I are making progress, but it is still volatile. He had two brief, back-to-back flings while on a prolonged business trip. He travels a lot--cumulatively, more than 6 months out of the year--which of course is a contributing factor. The first fling was a booty call, nothing more, but the second was more involved, in the sense that he became somewhat obsessed with her. There were a lot of horrible texts and emails back and forth, which I've read. To make matters worse, in his distress over what he was doing, he confided in an old "pen pal" (a married woman he barely knew with whom he had previously had an emotional affair). I had the "pleasure" of reading those emails, too. I now understand that he had convinced himself that it was OK to engage in a second life while he was traveling. It was about HIM, not about the OW. She could have been anyone. He had absolutely no qualms about cutting off contact when I found out and has shown nothing but deep remorse every day since then. Nonetheless, I am haunted by the OW (the one in particular). Recently, in one of my dark moments, I asked him what he would say if he were to contact her now. We don't intend to send the email, but this is what he wrote--and it is quite illuminating:
ReplyDeleteJust so you know... I cringe when I think about you and the disgusting and reprehensible person I was when I cheated on my wife with you. She is my best friend and the love of my life, and betraying her with you is by far the worst thing I’ve ever done. I will always hate myself for it and I will always hate you for it.
I was detestable, selfish, and extremely pathetic when I made the heinous decision to pursue you, and you were selfish, pathetic, and wrong to accept the advances a married man. I was attracted to you because I was horny and because there was something broken about you that led me to believe I could take advantage of you. I had been looking at a lot of porn and your slutty way of dressing made you seem like an easy target. Also, I had a twisted, needy ego and saw in you a grotesque opportunity to feed it. With you, I could build up my ego by building up yours, by acting like a generous big shot and spending money on you, and by acting like a mentor in the ways of the production business. It makes me sick to think about the arrogant monster I had become.
Yet, while I certainly don’t deserve it, I am the luckiest man alive. Rather than divorce me after finding out that I had cheated on her with you (and another slut, by the way) my beautiful wife has decided to fight for our relationship and rebuild our marriage. And she continues to support and believe in me as she always has. The strength she’s shown in waging this agonizing fight is remarkable and truly humbling. Her grace, intelligence, strength, and depth are qualities you will never know.
You aspire to be a life coach, but it is you who needs help. Anyone who sleeps with a married person isn’t qualified to be coaching anyone about anything.
Elisa,
DeleteWow! I would love to hear these sorts of things from my husband. It sounds like your husband is getting it.
I totally agree that contacting the other woman is futile and I am sure that the obsession with her doesn't help and only takes us away from where our focus should be-on healing. However I found that writing and not sending both to him and her was a way to dig out my true feelings and release them. After a few months and when I felt he and I were focussing more on our future I did write and I did send. I set up an email account and I never looked at it again as any response she may or may not have made is irrelevant to my healing. It was so cathartic to say....
DeleteTo the Other Woman
I hope you've found someone who isn't married now and that your life has moved onwards. I don't judge what the two of you did, or the choices you made, as it doesn't change what's passed, I will leave that to God/Karma/the Universe. But please know that in the past 5 months I've experienced more pain than in my whole 44 years of life, and that you, someone I've never met, have as equal a part in causing it as the man I married and shared 25 years and two children with.
He's watched me break, he's felt my pain as well as his own, and it seems unfair that you should be unknowing. He tells me you've known depression following a cheating boyfriend so, as part of telling both of you how your secret connection affected those beyond yourselves, I want you to know that you gave that hell over to me.
I do, however, want to thank you for respecting me enough to stop contact when I read all of your messages and the end came.
I hope you will now have someone to share your true self with, one you can welcome as your own this time and not one who's just borrowed from a stranger.
In peace.
His Wife
Our husbands were unhappy with themselves, their relationship, their jobs, their lives, their lost youth, unfullfilled dreams, any one or even all of the above. They were unhappy about something. What matters more is that they blamed us or the marriage, and their thinking is that "the OW/porn/prostitute can fix what ails me." They externalize their unhappiness, rather than look within to find the answers. It is much easier to blame someone or something else than do deep soul searching. Cheaters are unhappy--it doesn't really matter why as much as it matters why didn't they take responsibility for their pain. And their healing, our healing, and the healing of the relationship depends on now asking "how can we/I take responsibility for mending my/our pain, from the inside?"
ReplyDeleteSo why do most of us obsess about the OW? A couple of reasons. For one, I think we are conditioned or somehow led to believe that our man's unhappiness our responsibility, usually by being a combination of mother, doting wife, maid, therapist, super model, and sexual delight. And if he temporarily believes that someone who can do a better job--we fall into the trap of wavering between blaming ourselves or blaming someone else, instead of throwing of the mantle of responsibility for his happiness. Obsessing about the OW is just beating ourselves up with the question: "What has she got that I haven't got?" That is a pointless question but one we often ask ourselves because from birth as women, we are taught that our worth comes from being seen, judged and compare by others and ultimately we end up doing it to ourselves. We have to stop giving our power away by engaging in this worthless search for our value from the outside. The more we practice loving and valuing what we got for ourselves, and not through comparing and holding ourselves to some standard, AND the more we expect that he learn to be a man who doesn't use women/sex/fantasy to soothe or prop up his self esteem, the less relevant the OW becomes.
MBS
MBS,
DeleteAbsolutely. We too often take responsibility for the unhappiness of anyone around us, socially conditioned to believe that if someone isn't happy, it's up to us to fix it.
Ive come to know 9mo out it wasnt her the ow could have been anyone with holes and an ego stroke ... barbie and beauty queens need not apply. Just recently my h said the same thing this ow broken uses sex to gain what she wants and he at first was drawn into the sex like a drug ..they really used each other. kinky dirty hours on end sessions of sex that grew into a dirty secret and him feeling trapped and manipulated falling deeper into the hole by doing anything for me not to find out .the list is insane really.. hard to fathom but so many tell the same tale. The sex is one thing the deceit money and downright betrayal another. I do see marginal improvements and im no longer lying on the bathroom floor BUT im dealing with this ... the fantasyland bullshit opened the floodgates to kinky say no to anything sex from the ow and although ... i am not a prude i do have limits and or also a willingness to try things but im left now wondering will i ever really be able to satisfy my husband sexual desires? Is this my now insecurities or truly a boiling point issue and im angry which ive told him the he allowed this in and now im left to deal with it. Im not insecure and didnt think naive until dday struck like wildfire in a dry forest. Perhaps i need to sit idle take pressure off and just worry about today since im no longer promised tomorrow ... no guarantees to that ive learned. We are making progress i see my h efforts i have a new insight on me and how im going to life without perfection because its overrated but then these sticking points come which are created by false pretense but nonetheless i believe set a bar of expectations at least thats how i feel now and wonder is this a breaking point sure sex is important but to me its not a dealbrealer to marriage which has so many other values but men may think different? H just said outloud he knows why to a point but is boggled how he could have at first threw everything about us out the window and to affair he called it pure stupidity and says its hard to live w the hurt he caused me and hes angry for not telling me sooner as he thought id leave ... but nope im still here trying to figure it out. One day at a time i guess.
ReplyDeleteWounded,
DeleteYes, one day at a time.
I think the fear that an affair opened some sort of Pandora's box of sexual appetite is a fairly common one. And I would urge you to just keep talking to your husband about your sexual desires and for him to share his. You need to respect your boundaries around what is and is not comfortable for you...but we can express sexual appetites without necessarily acting on them. Sometimes it's enough to just be able to share them, knowing that our partner isn't on board but also knowing that our marriage is more important than actually acting on them. Within the context of a safe intimate relationship, sharing fantasies can be just that -- fantasies.
People cheat because they have brokenness inside of themselves. It is NOT something lacking in their life, their marriage or their spouse. I will add my voice here as one of those who had a happy marriage prior to the affair. Early on, I was envious (in a strange way) of people like Anonymous who could say things like "we were more like roommates" "we fought all the time" or "we had drifted apart". Because that made at least some kind of sense. But my husband would tell you we were best friends. He told everyone he was lucky to have me for his "teammate" in life. He said it to his work friend of 2 plus years. But he had some long buried issues with boundaries and self-esteem, birthed in his childhood in an alcoholic and emotionally abusive home.
ReplyDeleteThen came the perfect storm. Two of our parents dying in a short period of time. Economy flails and his business was on the verge of collapse. Two new babies, two older kids busy with sports and school. A new house, shaky finances. And the beat goes on. He became depressed. We both did. His work "friend" took advantage of this. She admitted she "fished" for him "a very long time" and she "pursued him aggressively". He wasn't her first married man and I doubt he will be her last. The seeds of discontent began to be sown. She picked up a shovel and helped him build mountains out of molehills.
While the majority of the blame lies with him, I will never say that she carries none. In his darkest days, he became suicidal with a plan. He was hiding from me how bad his depression was and I didn't know this. Still, I was begging him to seek help. His Ho-worker was telling him he didn't need it. Not to listen to me because all I wanted was to control him and I was the problem anyway. She was the answer. She would make it all better.
I will also say there is no marriage on this earth that doesn't have room for improvement. But when infidelity occurs, that has to be put on the back burner. The affair has to be addressed. The betrayed spouse must get the help s/he needs to heal. Only after the trauma has been processed and dealt with can the focus turn to discussion of the marriage as a whole, and the needs of the two individuals. Four years post d-day, I have seen cheaters draw the focus of the betrayed away from their affair by wanting to jump directly into "fixing the marriage". But in the early stages of affair recovery, that usually translates into "Can we talk about teaching you how to bake more cake? If I can't eat affair partner cake, I need wife cake". Affairs happen because cheaters are SELFISH. OF COURSE they want to immediately talk about how to make the marriage better. Thankfully we had good therapists (individual and marital) and they stopped the cake train in it's tracks. They were adamant that my husband take full ownership of what HE did. The choices HE made. Then he needed to be there for ME. Work on the damage he caused me and the kids. Only after that work was complete did we talk about some ways to fine tune our communication etc.
I have given his affair partner to God. I am not at a point to say I forgive her. She stalked and harassed me and my older kids online, got a lawyer and tried to ruin us in every conceivable way. A true bunny boiler. Friends, just know you had no part in their affair. Your marriage had no part in this affair. Heal your life, but kick blame-shifting out the door. I've been lucky my husband fully owns his choices and has worked hard in therapy. Blessings to all!
Unknown,
DeleteI'm glad your therapists were adamant about insisting he take full ownership of the affair. And yes, I don't think a marriage can heal without the full support of the betrayer for the betrayed. I'm glad your husband was able to be there for you. I wish more did the same.
Ladies I too found myself in a partnership with a porn addict. It endured for 20 years and culminated in him having a one night stand (in addition to having gone to strip clubs and getting lap dances which to my gentle heart are their own betrayal). It has reshaped the conversations we have with our children (19, 17, 16 and 13) about relationships, anxiety, boundaries and the internet. If I can prevent my 3 daughters from having my once "squishy boundaries" and if I can forge my son into a man with greater potential for wholeness I am willing to look at the destruction around me as something miraculous. I acknowledge that I struggle (at 48) with the idea he may still retain a quiet fixation with what I am not--young, skanky, a stripper, a beastie you meet at a bar who will bang you within an hour, a porn "actress"...I still wander the fields of uncertainty when it comes to whether or not his dirty self is just bound up Hanibal Lechter style awaiting his opportunity to bust out and cannibalise my heart again. Now what is in sharp relief is that I must come to terms with my opinion of myself. I must work at seeing the stuff that these revelations tend to leech out of us. I desperately want to feel sexy and attractive because other than being fooled by him this hasn't made me feel stupid it's made me feel ugly. Now I just have to spend time figuring out my willingness to say that... I am so grateful for the superheroes of this site. Maybe one day there will be a gathering of the betrayed and we can give one another all those hugs we send. Until then I credit this site (so does the man in my life) with the fact that my bruised and battered heart continues to beat and to make room for reconcilliation. Shawn.
ReplyDeleteOAPM/Shawn,
DeleteFor my husband, once the allure of porn began to wear off, he's able to be far more aware of how porn manipulates.
I hope the same happens for your husband.
And I hope you're able to begin to really see your own beauty and sex appeal -- apart from our cultural conditioning to attribute sex appeal only to the young and gorgeous. The older I get, the more I can see sex appeal in a wide variety of people. I see it in confidence, in self-possession, in self-compassion, in kindness. People who know who they are and value themselves are incredibly sexy.
H and i had a good talk ... im still emotional but hopeful perhaps im moving into a new phase or still stuck in some pockets of processing ... damn pinball machine. In the end all i can be is me. Process what i need to and focus on today ... next right step. Thata it
ReplyDeleteNext right step. Exactly.
DeleteOh boy!! No wonder this woman made the decisions in the family. Left to his own discretion, look what a boneheaded choice he made all by his little self!! Too bad she wasn't asked to have an input on this. Maybe things would have turned out differently. "No, no dear, fucking another woman who is NOT your wife, is not a good idea! Now get that garage painted!!"
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this woman was awful in this marriage or not. Maybe this guy was just a Casper Milktoast. But, He has a mouth, he has a brain, and if he felt marginalized in the relationship from all the nagging and being left out of the decision making processes, you talk about it or you get out, you don't cheat.
The bad thing about making all the decisions is YOU HAVE TO MAKE ALL THE DECISION!!! I bet he was more than happy to let her make the decisions. And instead of throwing some choices his way she just carried on passive aggressively nagging about it. Not good for relationships, but I bet he was happy to acquiesce. Well, I hope it's a marital lesson learned for her. I wouldn't so much as make a decision whether to buy mayonnaise or Miracle Whip with this guy!!
Yes, cheating is all on our husbands. The OW are not Svengalis or have magic vaginas. But I know for a fact these OW give very compelling sales jobs on these poor sad sausages. My bet is most theses husbands, had they been thwarted at their attempts with the OW by the OW, they'd have gone running back to Mommy with their tails between their legs! No most lay it out there on a silver platter. It's a story older than mankind. Do you really believe Bathsheba didn't know King David was watching her bathe?? Highly unlikely. Why stay faithful to a soldier when you can seduce the king??? Just sayin....
Here's some of the sell job that was related to me. "No I'm not going to rat you out. I need my job", "We are 'friends with benefits", "I don't want to marry you", "You can trust me. I'd never hurt you.", "I'm married too, you're safe with me", "I know all your secrets :)", "We are soulmates" Such great soulmates that she was cheating on him with several other guys including her own ex-stepson all the while he was cheating on me!!! Please bitch, and no I'm not referring to her I'm referring to my H. I mean how stupid can you be to buy the lines of this kind of sociopathic, trailer park trash?
ReplyDeleteAs for the "friends with benefits" line, ah yeah all the benefits were for her. Over 100k in both salary, bonuses and gifts!! She was out to line her own pockets. She was desperate person on the bottom rung of the social ladder. He was just stupid.
You bitched out 80 year old parents? Too bad. Collateral damage. She should have thought of that before she decided to take her panties off because well having affairs always ends well. Ask Tiger Woods, Arnold and Bill Clinton. Pretty sure she wasn't concerned about all the people ie your children, your parents, your family when she willingly chose to fuck your husband. No it was all fun and games then right?? Well dearie the chickens always come home to roost! Now do I think you have to keep making her life a misery, No, you've made your point with her and I hope she's moved on and learned her lesson although probably not. All you have to do is read cheater blogs and forums to know, these folks don't reform. Who cares, your H can kick a trash can and 50 more just like her will jump out for the opportunity she had. Most just for shits and giggles and thinking she's really getting something over on another women, an unsuspecting wife and gee aren't they the best ones to get something over on? Privileged bitches!! Yes, there are women who just like the competition. I hope you're not wasting and precious prayers or good thoughts on her because there are literally millions more who deserve it. Like the children of Sudan!
I agree, yes the blame is 100% on your H. He's an idiot and quit making excuses for him. And if your relationship is so dysfunctional that you have to make all the decisions and nag him like a 13 year old boy, you have plenty reasons to get out now that he's cheated, saving yourself from anymore aggravation.
As for the OW. No I'm sticking with she has nothing I want. No she has no presence in my life other than blatant hatered for a person who is a waste of good oxygen. And her shit is all on her. My h wasn't masturbating, she was a willing/encouraging/planning participant. She aided and abetted. Had she aided and abetted a bank robbery she'd be in jail. Well she took what wasn't hers very willingly. She encouraged it. She blackmailed. It was all about money for her and my h was scared shitless. Got in way over his head. It wasn't until I got involved that she ran off like the good little cockroach she is. And he never looked back. Pretty certain it is the biggest regret of his life given the way he treats me now.
LOL I don't have to wish her anything bad or even do anything to her. She's done it all to herself. She has stage 4 cancer, she's broke, she's on welfare with and under medicaid, she can't work because she's on disability although she does and takes money under the table, shocking right?, she has a mouth full of rotten teeth accelerated by chemotherapy, has gained close to 100 lbs and she looks 20 years older than she is. She lives in a shack and has to rely on the largess of her children to supply her with transportation. She's a loser, always has been always will be. Too bad, so sad. I could care less, but I am enjoying my moment of schadenfreude!
ReplyDeletecontinued...
I'm happy accepting the onus of your marriage and the seemingly subsequent infidelity on the part of your husband has given you peace of mind and has pushed the OW out of your mind. I prefer to put her in the same category as dirt under my feet.
The intent of my post was not to offend you, which seems I have. The point of my post was that our marriage was in a bad place and I can't place the state of our marriage solely on him. The cheating, however, is all his. I don't accept responsibility for that, never said I did. I had thought about leaving him, had temptations to stray but I never did and never would. But in order for us to have a shot of moving forward, we had to figure out not only why this happened, but also how to fix us as a couple in the other aspects of our marriage as well.
DeleteI learned in therapy that I have to respect his feelings even if I can't understand them/don't think they are right. And, his standing up to me to take the blame for his decision he made is one of those. To him, I was still continuing to emasculate him even in the beginning stages of therapy and I think it was a hysterical approach of his to say that he did this to me and a warped way of trying to show control. Like I said, I don't have to agree with him, but I can't keep on shooing his feelings away. And, his statement to me was a freeing one on some level because it did direct my anger back to him and took me out of my fog with the OW. Like I said, it doesn't matter to me why she participated, it only matters to me why he did.
I do have regrets of contacting the parents. I always will. Most parents do the best they can and teach their children right from wrong. What those children do as adults though is not on the parents. In my eyes, for me to harass them as I did was wrong, plain and simple. As a parent, I would be horrified if my daughter was a willing OW in an affair. But, you know what, I'd still love her regardless.
All I was hoping to get across in my post was that you have to really explore your marriage, the good and the bad, to move on from this sort of betrayal. The time spent obsessing on the OW didn't help me and I suspect it's also holding others back. It kept me fully enveloped in the pain and I couldn't break free from it until I let her go. I didn't want to carry around that hatred anymore, it was exhausting to me on so many levels. My attempts at contacting and shaming did not make me feel better. I just wanted to share that side of the equation. Some people do get satisfaction, I just didn't. Not one encounter went the way I planned it to go and they all just left me feeling emptier inside. Just my experience, that's all.
Anonymous,
DeleteYes, it was your experience and I think you described it with painful honesty. It's important to me that everyone on this site feel free to share their experience without being disparaged for it. Trying Hard, you're welcome of course to disagree. But I hope we can all do that with a recognition of how painful this experience is for every single one of us, how frightening it can feel to open ourselves and our story to others, and how healing it can be to know that we've been heard and respected for our own particular point of view.
We each walk our own path.
Sheesh!! I was on a roll there!!! :)
ReplyDeleteTryingHard
DeleteI love when you get on a roll! You put into words what rambles through my brain!
The OW in my marriage is a bit different than the OP's. She is a seductress, plain and simple. She learned at a very early age (from her father...something that broke my heart when I learned about it well before I discovered the brief physical affair) that her sexuality is her most valuable commodity and she uses it constantly. She's a mentally ill sex addict with an extremely high IQ, and she is a danger to herself and everyone around her.
ReplyDeleteBoth counsellors we've seen believe that my H, with his depression and PTSD from childhood trauma, was at the wrong place at the wrong time when it comes to the affair...that it took someone very practiced in the art of seduction to lure him in. That's not to say that it wasn't ultimately HIS choice to cheat, but they don't think it was anything he was looking for or would have initiated himself. He was hurting and vulnerable and his "work BFF" figured out his Achilles heel. When the affair began, she told him that she'd wanted him from the day they'd started working together It's telling that she didn't make her sexual move for a year and a half...when he was nearly non-functional from depression.
He thought they were close friends, and in some ways, I suppose they were. She confided in him, brought him treats and gushed about how lucky I was to have such the perfect husband. He was a shoulder to cry on for her, nicer to her than any man had ever been.
She has told him that he is the first man she would promise fidelity to (she's been married 3x and was never faithful) and mean it. Thankfully, as dumb as he is when it comes to her, he never believed that, and told her so.
It's been 11 months since D-Day #1 when I found out about their 3 week sexual affair 4 months prior. And it's been a month and a half since D-Day #2 when I discovered that she had made contact again and they had been secretly communicating, with 4 physical meet-ups (no sex...although she did climb into his lap and kiss him the first time they were alone, which he responded to for about 20 seconds and then put a stop to) for about a month. She had completely fucked her entire life up and he is the only person on this Earth who she trusts and who can stand her (not a single friend and her family keeps her at a distance), so she came to him begging for his help and friendship. And the idiot felt sorry for her and wanted to be the white knight. She was supposed to move across the country and he thought he could help her for a few weeks and she'd be on her way.
It took her that month to start asking for him to leave me and demanding that he offer her some kind of commitment. And when he told her he only wanted to be her friend, she flipped. The truth is, she believes that EVERY man is hers for the taking and he is the first one she wanted longterm who wouldn't leave his wife for her (she's "stolen" other husbands who've left their wives for her, and has been the OW countless times with men that were just sex toys).
Part 2
ReplyDeleteShe is nothing I want to be. Her life is an absolute misery. No one truly loves her. She has multiple mental issues, abuses her prescription drugs, has no job, rents a room in someone else's home and can only play nice for so long before the crazy gets unleashed. Her lifestyle has aged her to the point where she iooks at least 10 years older than she is (while I'm told I look at least 15 years younger than I am, so there...she looks 25 years older than I do...let me have that little bit of satisfaction, please!). She's no one to envy and so, I have no desire to make her suffer any more than she already does. I have compassion for the little girl who was so horribly abused, but I do find it difficult to feel the same for the woman she has become, however.
Unfortunately, because of their initial friendship, my husband feels nothing but sorry for her. He honestly cares about her and worries that she'll end up dead in a ditch after going home with the wrong guy. That's why he allowed himself to get caught up in her web again. He sees the damaged little girl (and he can relate to her) and wants to protect her. The upside? At least I know he's not a sociopath! The downside? He's been entirely too vulnerable to her manipulation because of it.
The MC believes that he had no intent during this last period to do anything but help her, but that the savior complex comes from deep-seated self-esteem issues that need to be addressed. (Yes, he's attracted to her physically for some reason, but it's mostly because she knows exactly how to seduce men, not because of any greet beauty she holds.).
And just to add to the discussion about happy marriages...at the time of the affair, ours was absolutely NOT. We'd been together for almost 25 years with many ups and downs, and we were in one of the worst downs we'd ever experienced. His severe depression, my own need for everything to look perfect, his belief that he was nothing more than an unattractive nation of a paycheck and subsequent pulling away from me, and my critical nature had all taken their toll. I remember looking at him and thinking, "Is this IT? Is this how I'll spend the rest of my life?".
Dana
ReplyDeleteThe woman you described is an unremitting sociopath. Pure and simple. There's tons of books and blogs about sociopaths and you have described on to a tee.
Yes, she targeted your husband because they can sniff out vulnerability like cat piss!
I hope you h is getting help for his depression or it will happen again. Good luck in that.
Seriously, go to amazon for books or sociopathy. Also google the internet there's a great blog on the subject. You are just the collateral damage in her crazy orbit. Don't feel sorry for her. Feel sorry for the little kid in a cancer clinic. This bitch is very well aware of what she's doing and she just doesn't care.
You're right, of course...she is very much a sociopath. And she is very aware of the destruction she causes....she actually enjoys it, it makes her feel powerful. Unfortunately for her, she also has rapid cycling bipolar disorder, so she's not as successful in life as many sociopaths tend to be.
DeleteH is getting therapy for his PTSD and depression FINALLY and seems to be doing well. Oddly enough, our MC says that he has severe attachment issues when it comes to me...but not the kind we're used to hearing about in men who cheat. He actually NEEDS to feel completely attached to me in order to feel safe, and has spent a long time terrified that I don't truly love him. This has created a scenario where I am almost 100% responsible for his happiness, which we all know is dangerous and unhealthy. H recognizes this now, but it will take a lot of work to re-program his brain.
Ladies, why do we let ourselves circle around and around this drain? Why do we keep trying to prove that the OW is a sociopath? or a effed up person? or a predator? addict? trainwreck?seductress?
ReplyDeleteI love that this is a space where we can vent about the OW, talk serious trash about her if we want. That can be part of the healing.... but to a point. The next step to healing is more important but much more painful. Maybe that is why we stay in the blaming, raging and tearing down the OW (or cheater) mode.
I decided that my healing is about looking to myself, how I can be true to myself and my values, and finding my own self worth and my own peace. Obsessing about him, or obsessing about the OW does not help me find peace--even though I still engage in it from time to time. Simple as that. The rage is understandable, wanting to know why he and she did it is reasonable. But getting stuck in it, cycling around it over and over again wasn't helping me feel better. Moving on to focusing on who I am, the source of my own pain and feelings of deficiency has been the key. I suspect focusing on the OW or our spouse is much easier than asking ourselves, "why does what he or she did, make me feel so bad about myself or my life? Why do I feel so small and destroyed by this?" Getting to the heart of that matter will stir up alot of hard things, but when you get there, you will find the true source of your power. I hope you all find the strength to go on that journey.
MBS,
DeleteI think we often circle back to issues that arise for most of us because newcomers arrive and are cycling through the same stuff that the rest of us did. I'm generally surprised at how little trashing of the OW there is on this site. In some cases (ie. see Dana, above), the OW is potentially dangerous and the BW absolutely should feel threatened and seek advice on how to handle things.
But yes, relegating the OW to the past is incredibly freeing and paves the way to move forward in a far healthier way. Most of us get there. It's just the pace of the journey that might be different.
For me and my marriage, according to both the MCs we've seen, the OW'a "story" is important in understanding what led my H to make the choices that he did and to help him build the tools he needs to guard against repeating them...with her specifically, as both of them believe that this isn't something that's likely to happen again with someone else (although we never rule out the possibility and these tools are effective in general as well). It also serves to give ME insight into their "relationship" and the dynamics that were in play so that I can quantify what happened and make choices about my present and future that are safe for me.
DeleteFor some of us, the OW doesn't disappear after the affair has ended or after D-Day. For me, the sexual affair had been over for 4 months when I found out about it, but their "friendship" had continued and was made more intense by her manipulating him into believing that her fiancé was abusing her physically, emotionally, verbally and sexually. He was in a constant state of stress that his "friend" was going to be killed at the hands of a monster, not knowing that she was an active participant in whatever sick stuff they were into, is a sex addict who would disappear for days of debauchery and is generally dangerous. Once he knew all of that, he put distance between them and then once I found about the affair, he cut contact entirely. But, 10 months later, when she came begging for his help and friendship, those protective feelings he had for her returned. He knows she's a mess, he knows she can be potentially dangerous, but as a fellow sexual abuse survivor, he sees her, not as a monster, but as a victim...and it stirs something in him that makes him want to protect his former "friend", even if it is from herself (keeping in mind that they worked as a team for a year and a half before the affair started and he considered her a good friend). There is a bond there, borne of trauma, his worry that she's going to end up dead due to her dangerous sexual behavior, and their initial friendship. And THAT is a problem for our marriage.
We are a month and a half past D-Day #2 (although he wasn't thinking of it as a revisiting of the "affair", I sure as heck do and he's had to examine why it WAS, regardless of HIS lack of romantic intention). He's not "in love" with her, he doesn't think he ever was, but he did have love for her as his friend and those feelings were real and he imagined that he felt that again during this last period. He realizes now that it was the need to be the white knight that was really in play and that she was using that once again...but in the moment, he allowed himself to go down that dangerous road. He had stopped taking his anti-depressant and stimulant combo for his depression and PTSD (long story) and was noticeably manic during this last period, so that didn't help with rational thinking, but I don't know if he wouldn't have made the same choices either way. I suspect he still would have wanted to "save" her.
So, while I would give up a kidney to relegate her to the past, I don't have that luxury right now.
Dana, The day you can truly relegate her to the past can't come soon enough for any of us! Hang in there.
DeleteHaha, Elle...it almost sounds like your sick of hearing about her ;)
DeleteNo, no, no!! I'm sorry that came out wrong. I mean, the day that EACH of us is able to relegate the OW in our lives to the past can't come soon enough. It's important for us to be able to really parse through our own experience here with the sounding board of the BWC. Please don't think we don't want to hear/read it!
DeleteI am really talking about myself too. I apologize if my post sounds like castigating for trying to parse the OW. I find myself circling back to dissecting the OW and then I realize I am avoiding focusing on myself. I have enough of a picture of her mentality, as well as my H's so that I can move on. It took me over 2 years to do it so I know that circling around "them" can last awhile. Also the OW hasn't been a part of my life--despite having common community ties--but I do expect she will pop up. Anyway, I just caution that it is easy to become preoccupied with others at the risk of losing ourselves. I also find that the more I focus on my own needs, desires, and feelings, I can make far better decisions about how to deal with other people's shitty behavior, set up boundaries, and approach crappy situations with grace rather than like a ranting lunatic (did that plenty, already). Hoping I am pointing towards a path of us finding sanity in the midst of insane situations.
DeleteMBS,
DeleteThat's the issue, I think, with any obsession with the OW. It can be used as a way to avoid the really tough questions about our own spouses. The OW becomes the lightning rod for all our anger. Even the craziest ones need the door to be opened for them to come into our lives...and our idiot husbands do that for them.
I can honestly say that, though I spent my fair share of time "obsessing", I rarely give the OW even the most fleeting thought. A few months ago, I was talking to a friend about cheating in a vague way and I realized that I couldn't remember the OW's name. Like trying to remember the name of someone I went to high school with or something...took me a while to recall it. I never would have believed I could get to that point way back when...
I just read a Yahoo clickbait essay on a woman who "befriended" her husband's new girlfriend/the OW. No she didn't make friends with her, there is no double dating, but since there are kids involved, she had to find some way of dealing with the situation civilly and make peace with herself. What I was struck by is how she was able to move on and break free of the OW spectre. I think how she did that was finding herself, who she is, what she is about, her own values, her own life. Once she felt confident in her own identity, her own skin, the OW stopped being competition. She knew who she was so she stopped worrying about who or what the OW is. In her case, she was able to see the OW as a human being who has brought positive things to her children. Not all OWs are crazy batshit. Yes, you have to have personal issues to knowingly get involved in someone else's relationship. But whether the OW is firmly batshit or just "merely" fucked up like much of the population, that shouldn't change how we free ourselves of the OW specter. It make take a while, but I can only see that the road forward is to edge out the space the OW takes up in my brain, with my own wants, needs, values, passions, and desires.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all I did not take offense nor did I feel I disparaged Anons post. But this blog is about Betrayed wives. If we are going to say our actions have nothing to do with their cheating, if we are going to support the arguments that even happy marriages have infidelity, then we have to accept the kick back from those of us who know we did none of the above to deserve what we got handed. Disclaimer or not. The breakdown of a marriage or not has nothing to do with their choices. I personally didn't nag, I liked sex, I encouraged and accepted his opinions so WTF. How did infidelity happen to me? That is what this blog is about right?
ReplyDeleteIt always aggravates me when people put the disclaimer in and then goes on to say "well I did x,y and z" and then justifies his cheating almost defending the OW who is half responsible for the affair. when we all know that's not what caused the infidelity and probably not even the break down of the marriage.
Look. I'm on her side. My point being the one time he's allowed to make a choice in his own he fucks up!! Maybe Their marriage is/was a one sided relationship but that has no relevance to his cheating let alone her taking responsibility for it or the seemingly break down of their marriage. Maybe they shouldn't be together at all and the cheating was just the icing on the cake.
Anon-- yeah ok do not cool calling her parents out. But you know what I had the same exact thing happen to me with my son. His long term girlfriend reached out to me and told me how my son had cheated on her. Guess what? I empathized told her I was sorry and ashamed my son had done that. I also called my son to task for his abhorrent behavior. I' didn't act like some delicate flower. I felt truly awful for the girl and I was ashamed of my son. Their daughter acted despicably and they should have shown shame and empathy to you. Not the other way around. Yes I still love my son. But it doesn't mean I don't hold him to a higher standard. And I let him know and guess what. He's told me he appreciated my calling him on his bad behavior. They are adults. I'm sure they've seen and heard worse. Don't beat yourself up over it.
Elle--I'm going to speak my mind. It's your blog and if you think my comments are rude or disrespectful you have every right not to post. Anons post gave me a lot to think about and a lot to say. It's up to you whether or not you want to post my comments. I think I have been more than respectful and helpful to a lot of commenters here but I understand it's your call. I simply saw a lot of issues in her post that needed to be commented upon from the other side. Yes we all deal with this experience in our own manner. Anons manners is just not going to be part of my narrative and my narrative is working fine for me too. I call bullshit when I see it and I'm sorry I saw lots of bs in that post. I think I made my argument clear and Cochise and did not show any disrespect. Again I'm on her side. I'm just not sure she's on her own side!!
TH,
DeleteThanks for this. I'm certainly nowhere close to censoring your remarks. I just thought a reminder of compassion for all might be in order. We're all doing the best we can and how we each heal from this can look widely different but be absolutely valid and healthy. Take what works for you here and leave what doesn't.
MBA
ReplyDeleteThat's a whole different kettle of fish when children are involved. Especially small children. I can't imagine the shit sandwiches some people have to eat with the OW for the welfare of their children. Thank God this was not my case. Although my adult son had to work with the OW because my h hired her into his business. To this day my son hasn't forgiven him. It was hell for him. I think he found her more disposable than I did!!
Dana
ReplyDeleteI think you are infinitely wise to sort out the psyche of the person that is interfering in your relationship with your husband. You are putting the puzzle pieces together. One of the main tools of sociopaths is the use of sympathy. And they are pros at using it. By showing sympathy to your husband and feigning her own she aligns herself with him. They are "soul mates", no one understands him like she does. It's the powerful tool that keeps him connected to her. And she will be relentless in using it until he completely cuts her off.
They can use the friend term very easily. Because after a "friend" is a good thing, it's not negative. Don't buy it. She is NOT a friend. They were co-workers. They may have had a good working relationship but a true friendship it most definitely was not. Real friends don't deceive you. Real friends don't encourage you to throw out your values and morals. Real friends don't compromise your well being. Real friends don't make you get tested for STDs! Call it like it is. She's a mistress, an affair partner. She set her sights on him for nefarious intentions and he was weak enough to let her in.
These sociopaths can be relentless because they literally have no conscience. They are out for no one but themselves. I so feel for you as your husband has a long way to go to finally grasp how this women literally has him under her spell to control him.
There's a great bog called sociopaths and love out there that has lots of resources and information about these people. It is very helpful. There's so much to learn about it. Apparently another trait is their voracious sexual appetite. It's asserted that sex with these sociopaths are "mind blowing". Yeah, I can feel you cringing. When I started learning about sociopaths this notion gave me many sleepless nights. How on earth can a wife in a long term marriage compete with that? But once they figure out the real person behind the mask the mind blowing sex and how it was used to manipulate and control fades away.
Yes indeed, we would all like to relegate them to the past but until you truly understand the enemy this battle is not over. It can be dealt with and healed but you would be foolish to believe in any kind of wishful magical thinking with regards to this person. They are dangerous and the only way to deal with them is absolute no contact.
I wish you the best
She's very practiced at all if this. She's done it many times over. Logically, he knows he's not special and he knows she was never truly HIS friend, but the damage to his ego at being so pathetic ate at his already abysmal self esteem...and, so, he let himself believe that maybe she really did value him as a friend when she came calling again, telling him how he's he only man she's ever trusted, how he's the only man who doesn't just see her as a sex object (he's the one who ended the 3 week sexual affair over a year ago and rebuffed her advances afterward) and that he's the best friend she's ever had. Hell, with the choices she makes, that's probably all true!! But she was never any of that for him in return and he knows that deep down inside, but it's painful for him to acknowledge that at times.
DeleteMy one area of gratefulness is that the few times they engaged in sexual behavior, it wasn't anything special or mindblowing at all. Every incident happened at work or in the woded area next to it, so there wasn't much time or space for anything too glorious anyway. He has described it as awkward and not very good, with one occasion being down right bad. She's very aggressive, but not particularly satisfying. And when each encounter was over, she would immediately act as though HE had been the aggressor and pile on the guilt. I n the other hand, I have to be honest with the fact that I'm pretty open minded and our sex life is pretty amazing, always has been. I guess I'm fortunate that I am the porn star in this story! Haha.
The UNfortunate thing, is that it was never about sex for him, it was the emotional connection he thought they had...and that is a lot harder for me to come to terms with. He was perfectly okay ending the sexual aspect, relieved, it was the "friendship" he didn't want to let go of and that "friendship" that allowed him to go down that slippery slope again.
Just to add...
DeleteIt's been almost 2 weeks since she tried to contact him again. He didn't reply and thinks that she'll probably be angry enough not to try again,. We shall see...
Thanks Elle. My intention is not to be disrespectful on anyone's blog. I feel very passionate about the subject of infidelity as you and the rest of your readers. When betrayeds put the onus of the affair on their husbands but then follow up with a but, I feel they are taking responsibility for the affair. Which is totally self defeating and will give the BS a real false sense of security in the marriage. The infidelity and the state of the relationship are two different issues.
ReplyDeleteI think it's great Anons husband took total responsibility for his affair and that she has put the OW in her proper place and that she is out of the picture. I wanted to reinforce to her that her role in their relationship and the perceived injustices seemingly on her part in no way encouraged her husbands infidelity. Because it did not. LOL, sometimes I feel like the proverbial "Dutch uncle". My intentions are NOT to offend but to emphatically reveal. It's up to them to take it or leave it. No skin off my nose :)
No worries, TH. I just don't want anyone to ever feel as though their experience isn't valid. We absolutely should be able to disagree with each other but all of us need to remember that our experience isn't their experience and we're always only getting a part of the story, not the whole thing.
DeleteLOL thanks Theresa. I'm nothing if not authentic and passionate on this subject. While I earnestly try to practice compassion I cannot sit by the campfire and sing kum by ya with regards to affair partners and the roles they played in decimating people's lives. I don't regret one thing I did to make the one in my life miserable. I'd do it all over again. Does it mean I want to do more, yes, sometimes. But what I've learned about revenge is it's like a drug. You are never satisfied. There's always the next high. But eventually you become this pathetic, bitter creature if you continue to seek revenge. so I choose everyday not to pursue revenge any longer. Doesn't mean I haven't taken the time to learn my enemy and put some of the responsibility on her. And she does deserve it.
ReplyDeleteI'm better than her on so many levels and I choose to rise to my own highly set bar of integrity and self worth. Despite the fact that my beloved partner chose to wallow in the mud with her. No the OW has NOTHING I want. I know it, he knows it and she knows it too.
Trying Hard
DeleteThe ow in your case as well as mine were sociopaths no question. The more I learn from others here, not all are. I've also learned that while some of us betrayed wives that were completely blindsided by the betrayal because we felt we were in very happy stable marriages. Looking back at my own, my h and I were very unhappy living apart for his work and our daughter and grandkids. He fell into lust with a crazy lady and could not figure out how to get rid of her. Pathetic as it sounds, shit happend because he was in such a weak place himself and he was her knight in shining armor as she divorced her 'abusive' husband. My h helped her get her life back together and sent her away but she just kept coming back trying to convince him he was not happy with me. That was the craziest six months of our lives! The past five months have been so much easier without her interference in our world. I've watched my h bust ass to win back my trust, still shaky at times, and life is getting better. I agree that the ow has nothing I want to be like! I enjoy my independence and I know if my h walked out the door forever, I would be able to live life! It's my choice to give him the chance for our happy ever after, it's now his choice to figure out how!
Regarding contacting the OW, I have to say I got GREAT satisfaction from it. I contacted her twice, once by email and once by phone. I was very calm and civil, but I wanted her to know that I knew everything (although she continued to lie and wouldn't admit anything to me -- as if my husband would have confessed to cheating on me with her if she actually hadn't?!) and that her former coworkers now knew about it as well, and I also wanted her to know just how despicable I thought she was. She has a daughter in her 20s; I asked her how she would feel if someday another woman disrespected her daughter the same way she had disrespected me. She was silent. It was great. She knew I was right and that I wasn't afraid to confront her about her behavior.
ReplyDeleteI suppose I'm "lucky" in that this particular OW isn't batshit crazy, but very lonely and was unhappy and neglected in her own marriage. That doesn't mean I feel a shred of sympathy for her, though. I do blame her for her part in the affair -- very much. She knew exactly what she was doing. She knew me. She knew my children. She knew she was engaged in something very wrong. It wasn't just my husband who owed me integrity because he'd married me; she also owed me something as a fellow human being. We all owe each other that.
So I can't get on board with Anonymous's advice to "Focus on what you have done to hurt him." Seriously?
Jennifer
DeleteI agree wholeheartedly that we owe each other basic decency. But, at the risk of sounding cynical, there are legions of people who don't see it that way at all. I know too many people who just don't see it as a problem to cheat with a married man, the old "I wasn't the one who made the vows" defence.
It generally comes down, I think to the fact that hurt people hurt people. When you come at life from a place of believing you aren't getting your due, it's easy to justify all sorts of unethical behaviour. And, of course, our culture supports this. Affairs are sexy, they're exciting, they're blah blah blah.
It does come down to the fact that "hurt people hurt people." I think this statement also addresses the back and forth going on about what the state of the marriage have to do with the affair. Is it because the marraige was unhappy or was it despite that fact the the marraige was happy that he cheated?
DeleteI believe the universal truth is that unhappy people have affairs. Sometimes, the marraige or relationship played a role in a partners unhappiness. While the marital struggle is rarely the only cause of unhappiness it can be a important factor. My h's personal issues contributed to alot of our marital unhappiness, but my reactions to his behavior didn't help either. If we can be honest and acknowledge that there were issues in the marraige that made it vulnerable to what the OWs are offering up, then we have responsibility to healing the relationship. Of course, he has a whole pile of shit to deal with that has nothing to do with me.
I also think it is important to be honest about an assumption that the marraige was "happy." That might be true, but clearly the cheating spouse isn't happy in some part of him--therefore, how can your marriage be honestly happy. Clearly something is missing that prevents a spouse from being honest, communicative and addressing the unhappiness. That "something missing" can be missing within himself or within the relationship dynamic--likely a combination of the two. It doesn't make the relationship a "bad" one, but there is clearly a vulnerability if a spouse cannot be open and honest. Many marraiges exist in this state of "happy" but is only some that get tested by infidelity and are forced to fix that vulnerability. That is something we, the betrayed, need to be a part of. Even if it is all on him to learn how to express himself and not hide and lie, we have to make sure that we can be a partner who can hear his truth whether we like his truth or not.
MBS,
DeleteAbsolutely. Unhappy people cheat. Looking outside of themselves for something that needs to be fixed inside.
And that's the line of tension that seems to trigger strong feelings on both sides of the debate re. "happy" marriage. You're right in that one partner can be unhappy but unable or unwilling to talk about it and the other "happy" partner doesn't always want to hear (or is able to hear) the unhappy partner's issues. I spent so many frigging years trying to get my husband to see just how great his life was but, ultimately, I wasn't able to realize just how deep his pain was...and he was too frightened to tell me. And when the shit hits the fan, we do need to be able to "hear his truth" if we have any hope of rebuilding a marriage.
Hurt people DO hurt people. Hurt people DO have affairs. But let's stop perpetuating the myth that the marriage has to be unhappy in order for infidelity to occur. Let's stop telling betrayed spouses they are in any way, responsible for for the cheating spouse's actions. Because when we say.... the cheating spouse might not have cheated if only we had been able to hear their truth?? If we tell them THEY contributed some flaw that made their cheating spouse vulnerable to what the OW was offering? We are doing a grave disservice to not only ourselves, but to our spouses and our marriages as well.
DeleteAfter two years in therapy. After repeatedly being told by my spouse that I didn't cause his affair (and I wish I did in some way....it would give me something to solve, and it would lessen his feelings of guilt!) I had to step way back and see the bigger picture. He had his own baggage. When parents died and our business nearly failed, he stopped hearing my voice and listened to those long ago voices that told him he was unworthy. His co-worker simply told him what he wanted to hear. That nothing was on him, he could blame everyone around him from me to the kids to his friends to his business associates. Hurt people HURT. When you are hurting, it is hard to see yourself clearly, let alone anyone else. It is hard to be happy in ANY situation when you are hurting inside. That is why celebrities and star athletes do drugs, have multiple marriages, enter AA. It isn't their spouses. Until they work out what is wrong inside of THEMSELVES, their lives are a trainwreck. All relationships need continual work in order to grow and thrive. That's an entirely different conversation. But sometimes people just make bad decisions. They make those bad decisions ALL on their OWN. They make them if the marriage is good, bad or indifferent. Because it isn't about anyone else's wants, needs, or feelings. It is about their own.
Exercisegrace,
Deletein no way do I state that "the cheating spouse might not have cheated if only we had been able to hear the truth." Nor are we ever responsible for someone else's choices. In fact, our therapist told me this probably wouldn't have happened if our marriage was in such bad shape, and I was about to rip her head off. I am so glad I ended up leaving her. Our new therapist now understands that it was my H's faulty thinking that led him to an affair. In fact, his affair brought to light his personal history, ADHD, and messed up upbringing. I think his cheating was inevitable with the baggage he was carrying around. He would have likely cheated on any woman he married.
However, infidelity always means there is a vulnerability. Your partnership is only as strong as it's weakest link. I seriously doubt there is any marriage that doesn't have some holes in it that make it vulnerable to some pressure. To make one's marriage less vulnerable to the psychological breakdown of one or both of it's partners, and to the easy promises of fantasy, we all have a part to play. Together with our partners, we have to make sure there is a level of trust and communication in our relationships where we can each talk about our deepest hurts and personal baggage. Learning how to have a relationship post infidelity, means each of us showing a new level of understanding, responsibility, and compassion toward each other.
MBS
I have thought on and off about contacting the other women, there are two. And really I am more curious if what my husband has told me is accurate. He cannot remember the year the one affair started, and I am sure the woman would. But I never have since in the end I realized I have not relationship with them and no way I could trust them. And also if our marriage is going to be repaired it needs to be between us. I am nothing like these women. Even though on dday my husband told me we weren't that different looks wise and I might be friends with at least one of them. Well that did not go over too well. He knows I do not lie or cheat in any aspect of my life. I have the highest ethics and always have since the day we met. I am honest and loyal.
ReplyDeleteHe says now he is at his happiest since he does not have to worry about hearing from these women or having secrets from me. He says he hated the secrets and himself each day. Who knows what these women had going in their lives. He says they were single but who knows. I am not convinced he even knows. One thing is even on dday some of the stuff he told me was almost comical. It must have been affair fog since the things he had convinced himself about were just on the verge of hysterical. It was proof that he told himself anything he had to in order to get through his days and live with his lies.
So in the end for me I could care less about these women. They could be anyone as he said. My marriage is with him and he broke our vows and promise. He lied to me over and over. So he has to make it better, there is nothing the other women can say or do for me to feel better about our marriage.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteI feel terrible that you feel you have to defend yourself to us. You do not. If your epiphany worked for you and saved your marriage, good for you. Who am I to judge?
Good for you that you were able to put all, every bit of the onus onto your husband and you could put the OW in the past and out of your mind. Good for you that you realized you had and continued to emasculate your husband, certainly NOT a nice trait. Good for you that you feel your change has helped him heal.
It's just that your philosophy doesn't hold true for some of us.
Case in point, Elle's newest post today. This OW is relishing her role as OW. There are women like this and we would all be foolish not to know this. I truly believe many of us have relinquished the role the OW played in our lives and give her no more power.
But we are also smart enough to KNOW that she did play a role and we needed to be educated about her role. I needed to know her role. I already knew his. What I needed also was his realization of the role she played in the seduction. I only got that by learning about who I was dealing with. And guess what? While he continued to take his responsibility for his affair he also came to understand just how much he was manipulated by this desperate person. It helped him realize his weaknesses. By not understanding her role he could have never healed. He would have only felt guilt and believed that he was just an asshole.
But your post, and maybe I'm wrong, sounded like you were taking responsibility. During counseling you were trying to understand the affair and try to put some on the onus on the OW, which by the way you were right to do after all he didn't have an affair by himself, he lashed out and accused you of emasculating him in the past and that you were continuing to do so. You even believed him. Let me ask you, before he pointed out the emasculation had you ever in the past felt you were doing this?
I hear in his statement and your support of it, that you found something you could control and fix about yourself. You could fix you, by doing this your could fix your relationship and then your H would be fixed.
Sorry but your was being defensive in my book. There's a big difference between taking ownership of your actions and denigrating your spouse for exploring the role the mistress played in the debacle called an affair. It sounds to me that he lashed out at you in a form of justification. Instead he should have told you what she did. How she encouraged or didn't encourage the affair and the lies and the betrayal to you. What.was.her.role. Who.is.this.woman?? Truly, it almost sounded like he was defending her, at least that was my take. I may be wrong, only you know that.
I hope your successes in this aren't short term. I hope your husband understands what drove him to make his choices and that it had nothing to do with you and everything to do with his own character weaknesses. I hope he has learned that he is vulnerable like the woman he had an affair with and steers clear of these people. LOL--I hope you have him on the short lease.
Trying hard
DeleteLike you, I had to understand the whole dynamic of his betrayal. My h admitted that he had random thoughts and fantasies years before he actually landed in the affair. He told me that she invited him out to a concert that was supposed to include other friends from his volleyball team and he went even when he knew the others were not going! That was the night he crossed the line... Once I came to terms with all of this, the time line and how she manipulated him just as he thought he was the manipulator. She convinced him to let her be his mistress just to keep her silence. He kept thinking he could convince her to let him go and not hurt me with the truth. It wasn't until after he took her on the out of town trip to end the affair, that he realized no matter what he said to her, she wouldn't leave him alone. She had convinced herself that he was denying his true feelings of love for her and was so unhappy in his relationship with me. Regardless of how many times he told her he was not in love with her. However, his actions with her, i.e. continuing to take her to lunch to shut her up as well as the last sex when he really meant it was over convinced her that he loved her! When he would text her after the blowup to leave us alone, he didn't realize that telling her he wished her well in the future and cared for her, but does not love her only added fuel to the firestorm in her mind. I couldn't understand why he didn't feel the need to hurt her feelings as she was mine. He was afraid of her anger given how she had a past of destruction of her home when she was going through her divorce. He threatened police intervention and that's what it finally took to get her to leave us alone. That was Apri fools day last year but she still felt compelled four months later to contact my h for sympathy and comfort during her crisis. My h responded, Theresa and I will pray for your family. By replying with my name first, he made it clear that we had compassion for her losing her son, but that he was not the one she needed to reach out to for support. That was only 5 months ago and I continue to see her drive through our neighborhood occasionally! She really is a messed up woman! My h has done the hard work of understanding how this happened and has made changes in himself for himself and if I hadn't been able to see his hard work, I'm not sure we would be where we are today! It's been one of the ugliest adventures of our lives together but we both feel that it has brought us closer together and given both of us more understanding of each other. I'm not sure if others feel the way I do but this was how I had to tumble down my path! Hugs!
Theresa
ReplyDeleteThere's no being nice and letting these people down easy. There's only police protection orders and absolute NO CONTACT. She is crazy but your husband's unwillingness to put his foot down with her is probably encouraging her a little. You know like the line in Dumb and Dumber, "..so you say there's a chance..." They will hold onto ANYTHING, any little bit of kindness or hope given in their direction.
And remember, our husbands didn't say such nice things about us during the affair. I would think after the initial couple of months after the ending of the affair and he has "kindly" said it's over, after that it's time to get a little mean. As in Piss Off Bitch and orders of protection. She has every right to drive on your street although we all know why she's doing it. She sounds like a real nut job. I almost feel sorry for her---LOL no I don't :)
I think you're doing a great job but please don't waste a minute with trying to find compassion for her. She's like a nasty cockroach that just won't go away. There are so many others in this world deserving of your compassion. I think sometimes we honestly believe in magical thinking that if we have enough love and compassion for our fellow humans, especially those that hurt us, that they will "see the light" and behave. Not so, we don't have the kind of power. We are not wizards. Some people are just crazy. Steer clear of her but don't let her intimidate you.
Trying hard
DeleteYes we have the protective order in place, I ignore her drive by and continue to live my life happier! I no longer have a need for revenge, confrontation or any further contact with her at all! I just desire that my story may help someone else dealing with a crazy ow! Peace be with us all!
Trying Hard,
DeleteThank you for this: "I think sometimes we honestly believe in magical thinking that if we have enough love and compassion for our fellow humans, especially those that hurt us, that they will "see the light" and behave. Not so, we don't have the kind of power. We are not wizards."
I so needed to hear this today.
At 8 months out, I finally seem to be moving beyond shock and anger and open heart on the floor into "what next?" Okay, so this really happened. I can't have the marriage that I thought I had and I don't want the marriage that I now understand that I actually had. So what do I want and how do I get there? What will it feel like to be healed and how does it happen?
I want so badly to be "healed." But I have been feeling overwhelmed by the message that for me to be healed, I need to be the bigger person, that I need feel empathy for my husband's "crisis" and compassion for the other women. "As we forgive those who have trespassed against us."
I don't feel like this is healing for me. I feel like it is another burden that I must bear, another consequence I must pay for the actions of others, another thing to fail.
One of the hardest parts of this whole fiasco has been a creeping back of the OCD that I thought I had put behind me 15 years ago. This is what OCD sounds like: "You could fix you, by doing this you could fix your relationship and then your H would be fixed."
But this is what I need to hear: "We don't have that kind of power. We are not wizards." So thank you for this. It has made all the difference today.
Sal,
DeleteYou didn't cause the cheating and you cannot cure anyone of cheating. I can understand how you got the message that you need to be the bigger person, etc. but that's not at all what this is about. You need to heal yourself -- and you do that by, first of all, honouring your feelings through this. It's not about ignoring your anger, or hiding your pain at all. It's about acknowledging and treating your pain. If that means staying in a bathrobe and binge-watching Netflix while you cry, then that's what it means. You can't make yourself heal...you can only be gentle with yourself and kind with yourself, and healing will begin. It won't be some miracle moment, it will be a slow realization that you don't cry so much. That you forgot about your pain for a minute, or 10, or a day. You'll realize that you're feeling a bit excited about something, or hopeful. You'll see beauty again. Healing is like a seed of hope that begins to sprout.
As someone with OCD, you're likely a perfectionist. So of course this might trigger you. Your husband cheated because there's something broken in him. You can't fix him. You can't MAKE someone behave differently. You've only ever been able to control your own actions but that's enough.
Be gentle with yourself. Remind yourself, over and over again, that you did not cause this nor can you fix this. Create those new neural pathways and disregard the old ones that insist you're not doing this right, or enough.
Whether or not empathy or compassion for husband comes remains to be seen. But it can't be forced. Show empathy and compassion for YOU. You're the injured party here, not him.
If you're not in counselling, I would really suggest that you find someone. I have a daughter with OCD and you want to stay on top of this so that the old thoughts don't take root again. What's more, we all need support to deal with the agony of betrayal. A counsellor will give you that safe place to work through your pain.
Sal, you're going to be okay. But it's a long tough road. You're strong enough and healing will come. But for now, just focus on your next right step, and that is taking care of you.
Thanks.
DeleteI hope I did not give impression that I was upset by anything specific said by someone here about healing and forgiveness. It's just me working it out by saying it "out loud" here, so to speak. Reading others experiences has been tremendously helpful for me -- sometimes because I hear myself in what others write, and sometimes because I'm challenged to hear something more than myself.
But I do often feel overwhelmed by a message of forgiveness as a necessary part of healing, and also as an obligation to be the "better" person. I think that's probably some selective hearing on my part -- I'm probably bothered by this message because it feels safer to be buttoned up tight with my "righteous anger" for now than even entertain the idea of eventual forgiveness. Plus I'm actually righteously angry.
And I'm also sure my Catholic faith is a huge factor. My Catholicism is essential to who I am, and I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so I've got to figure this forgiveness business out. I say the Our Father every day and I stumble over "as we forgive those..." Argh. I'm planning to talk to my priest for perspective. Just not sure I actually want perspective right now LOL.
As for OCD... That almost ruined me 15-20 years ago. Goodness, the rituals I had to do just to leave the house, because heaven knows what chaos would be unleashed in the world if I walked through the door the "wrong" way, LOL (LOL now, definitely not so LOL then). I learned to manage it with medication and talk therapy. My OCD is a type of magical thinking -- which is why what Trying Hard said spoke to me so clearly. I *KNOW* the compulsive rituals are absurd, especially for someone who professes to have faith in God, and yet... those wizard powers can be very tempting. I have post-its with her words around my worry places: "We don't have that kind of power. We are not wizards." It helps.
I am going back to counseling. We started marriage counseling within a week of DDay -- by his pleading, along with individual counseling for him. It seems that my discovery of his affairs forced him to face that he had become a real asshole. There was a week or two of trickle truth, and then an awakening (along with some really severe kicks to the balls). Going on 9 months, we still definitely have a lot of work to do, but he seems at least as disgusted by his behavior as I am. I think we are both coming to terms with the fact that he had become "that guy." That cliched-middle-aged-jackass guy. For each of our own complicated reasons, we both accepted way less than we should have, of ourselves and of our marriage. Plus, he was a real asshole, in case that wasn't clear. Ugh.
I stopped marriage counseling a few months ago because it wasn't a good fit. She just seemed so SAD for me. Instead of feeling understood I felt patronized. So we're feeling out someone new, and I'll go for individual also if OCD is back for real. Good grief, he was such an asshole.
Sal,
DeleteGood grief is exactly what you're after! Feel the grief. Don't pretend it's not there in order to be the "better" person. Forget the whole idea of a "better" person. Your faith will no doubt inform your understanding that we all, every single one of us, is beloved equally, even the idiot cheaters of the world.
And yes, any counsellor has to feel like a good fit if it's going to help.
Sal, you're going to get there. In fact, you're well on your way. Sometimes we just need to keep turning this stuff over in our heads to make sense of it.
Trying Hard, I had no idea that I was emasculating my husband prior to all this. I am a very sensitive person and do my best to lift people up, including my husband. I am also a perfectionist. Or should I say I was afflicted with perfectionism more strongly in the past that I am now. What I did, that emasculated my husband, and I was unaware of it… is that I reached out to professionals to do things around the house. One of the biggest examples - I hired an arborist. My husband is extremely handy. He is a mechanic by trade. And he wants to do absolutely everything around the house. However, I learned over the years that he does not do what is needed at our house, rather, he goes and helps someone else at their house. After about 10 years of marriage I brought that to his attention. And he said you are just now realizing that? I certainly would not hire someone to do actual construction or plumbing or anything of the sort. I did however, reach out to hire an arborist. Yes, my husband had trim the trees on his own - not so great. In any case, he eventually would say to me often, that I needed to hear it from a professional from another town. Honestly, it was not until my husband and I were separated, and I was discussing this with a friend of mine when she said to me you emasculated your husband. What? No, mind you, I am very certain that my husband does not even know what the word emasculation means. He just knew that he didn't feel good when I did not allow him to be a man… A knight in shining armor. Did I cause his affair? Absolutely not. Did his affair bring to light fact that I am escalated him and certain regards? Yes, it did. If I were to ignore that, we could not move forward in our marriage. Hugs and kisses to all.
ReplyDeleteSal
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely!! Put that forgiveness, empathy crap on the back burner. I beat myself up with it until I finally said, forget about it, it doesn't matter. And it doesn't. It's bullshit quite frankly. Maybe you'll get there maybe you won't but you are not in control of anyone's actions. There is nothing about you to "fix" in order to fix your relationship. And I have found the only thing that helped me put his actions in the past was accepting what happened. It happened. Nothing, NOTHING, is going to change that fact. No answers to why, no amount of empathy on our part, no compassion (btw this comes MUCH later), no rationalizing, nothing. You and he HAVE to do the hard work of talking about it. Laying all the cards out on the table. Establishing a fair and equal playing field. There is no fair or equal when one is telling lies or keeping information from you. You HAVE to know what you are dealing with. It's up to you to determine what you need to know, not him.
I so get the OCD part. Yes that wonderful euphoria of being in control. THAT we can fix :) LOL might take the help of therapy, but it can be fixed.
I'm glad I helped you. You need more time. But spend that time on yourself and your needs. The needs of your relationship with your husband will follow. Hugs sister!
Hey Sal
ReplyDeleteI don't know if I said it before but put that whole forgiveness stuff on the back burner. Seriously, I drove myself NUTS trying to force myself to "forgive". Yep I felt like God would hate me if I didn't forgive. After all didn't his son command us to do that??? But then there's all that stuff in the bible about rebuking the sinner, blah, blah, blah. Make up your mind here God, Do I rebuke him or forgive him. UGH way too much to process at the same time :)
Trust me you will come to forgiveness, EVENTUALLY, if only because you are worn the eff out. Forgiveness for this huge infraction of the rules is a process. Five steps forward to that goal, four steps back. It's ok, you're one step ahead.
I think you are being wayyyy to hard on yourself and YOU don't deserve it. I know about the OCD I have a little. I count :) It's our little way of thinking we have control. Intellectually we know we don't, but I know it's hard to stop. And it's not stupid at all. It's just how we work. There is help for it though. But you know that.
I find it helpful to know, reallllly know, we are in control of nothing and no one but ourselves. That's it in a nutshell. It also helps for me to think and know even if the worst happens, I will be ok.
Sure he was an asshole, how else could he justify and do what he did. They are all assholes during this time. We should put out a big giant public service announcement, "IF YOUR HUSBAND IS ACTING LIKE AND ASSHOLE IT'S BECAUSE HE'S HAVING AN AFFAIR!!!" No one would listen though. No one knows what this is like until you go through it.
I love the idea of a public service announcement. Thing is...nobody would believe it. "My husband wouldn't do that..." Uh, yeah, sure...
DeleteThis is a wonderful post. Being new to this site and just over two years from D-Day, I am in the 'obsessed with the OW' phase and this is just what I needed to read. I have managed to restrain myself from 'outing' the OW (her texts, phone calls and messages to my cheater H came on a work phone and work email, and on work time they would slip away for long 'lunches' - so I could have done considerable damage to her work-wise as well as personally. She even sat on a panel which interviewed and promoted my H, without disclosing the true nature of their relationship! There was something that stopped me form the tremendous urge to obliterate her. I understand completely what Anonymous did. I understand COMPLETELY! I just wanted to spit bile and venom towards her and these days, I want to know everything she is doing. I feel pathetic and it keeps her in my marriage. This post helps so much to take those steps to let her go and to proceed with a man who is remorseful, committed to make our marriage work and (his words) 'haunted by the choices he made and that he could be such a low life for so long, unable even to have the guts to end the relationship when he let himself be played like a cheap violin.' He blames her sometimes and I have to keep bringing him back to 'she did not make you do ANYTHING ... these were your choices and yours alone... you gave yourself permission to cheat, and look at where the path of deception has brought us.' Thanks for your post and bravery!
ReplyDeleteMarti
DeleteI've been in those shoes for a long time. The more you let go of 'her' and focus on his new improved self, the better you will feel! Easier said than done...