Monday, February 11, 2019

A conversation with therapist and infidelity expert Caroline Madden

Dr. Caroline Madden
I'm pretty active on Twitter these days and enjoy the conversations I have with others who tweet about infidelity and healing and how to get through this thing called life with our hearts mostly intact. 
I'm often intrigued by Twitter comments by Caroline Madden. She's a marriage and family therapist in Los Angeles and also author of a bunch of books about healing from infidelity. She's smart and insightful but mostly she's got a way of reaching out to both the betrayer and the betrayed in a way that makes them feel seen and heard, like their story matters too.
I decided to read one of her books. I chose After A Good Man Cheats in part because I think there are fewer good books available for the betrayer.
I was gobsmacked by After A Good Man Cheats and I wished a whole lot that this book had existed back in 2006 when the bomb that is infidelity blew up my life. Gobsmacked because Dr. Madden gets it. It's like she read my diaries, removed all the angst-y woe-is-me and farewell-cruel-world stuff and wrote a book that addressed what I needed most: 
I am in the worst pain of my life and how do I make him understand that?
And then she put my pain through some sort of betrayed-to-betrayer translation machine and came out with things like this: 
"...the symptoms women experience after an affair are similar to the symptoms people experience after going to war or experiencing a significant trauma. They experience a form of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)." (from After A Good Man Cheats)
I can scarcely imagine how my healing might have been different if someone had said those words to me (or I had read them) early on. Rather than wondering what the hell is wrong with me that I'm such a mess?, I might have recognized that what I felt was reasonable, under the circumstances. It was normal. It was even expected.
And what a relief that would have been.
Relief is a key part of Madden's role. To offer relief to both partners. To assure each of them that infidelity doesn't have to be a deal-breaker, that they have options available to them and, perhaps most of all, that they will heal from this if they do the work. 
I recently called Dr. Madden where she lives and works in Los Angeles (lucky Angelenos to have such a therapist in their midst! Lucky the rest of us that she's written books to share her expertise). We talked about her work, her books and what she's both learned and taught.
She opened with this: "Reconciliation is not an entitlement. It's a gift."
Wow, huh? How would your marriage look different, right now, if you proceeded with that core understanding? That staying with someone who's been unfaithful isn't an act of desperation or wimpiness but generosity. Benevolence. A gift. Assuming, of course, that he wants to be a better man. That he wants that second chance and is willing to work hard for it.
Even then, she says, "men are stupid, and often say the absolutely wrong thing to their wife."
She's empathetic to them. "Stupid" is said with affection and, she says, in 20 years, "I haven't had a man disagree."
She offers them scripts in After a Good Man Cheats. Literal scripts. Not to put words in their mouths that are disingenuous, she says, but to help them decode their wife's pain, to "install empathy chips." She urges them to step into their wife's experience: Where is her pain? Why is she asking these questions?
To keep men focussed on their wife's pain, she urges her unfaithful clients to, whenever they find themselves feeling guilty or ashamed by what they did to think about what they can do for their wife that day, to become giving without any expectation of reciprocation.
Most men are stunned by the extent of the damage they've caused, she says, and at a loss for how to take steps to remedy it. 
"They are prepared for the anger,  not the devastation. They often believe that their wife doesn't really like them. They think their wife has [intentionally] been looking the other way."
She places at least some of the blame on our culture, which, she says, allows men to have three feelings: happy, angry, drunk. So when they're feeling lonely, or disconnected, or lost...well..."attention from another woman is like warm milk to a feral cat." 
This can be hard to hear when you're newly betrayed. We don't care that he was sad. Or lost. Or disconnected. We're all those things now too because they're big fat idiots! Maybe we were those things before but we didn't cheat!
Dr. Madden makes clear that understanding the cheater's mindset is in no way giving them a get-out-of-jail-free card. This isn't about exonerating them, it's about understanding them. 
"Cheating is in no way an acceptable response," she says, noting that it's not a therapist's job to be "neutral" about this. When she's counselling couples, the cheater needs to put his guilt and his shame aside, she says. 
"It's about her pain. He can deal with his feelings one-on-one."
To that end, she maintains that husbands need to accompany their wives to the doctor when they're tested for STDs. She normalizes the roller coaster of emotions that we so often experience, the up and down and all around. What did he expect? she tells him. Your wife is in the worst pain of her life. 
Those who cheat again? "If you can see this pain and do it again, you are a bad person," she says. But she says that with the same straightforwardness with which she talks about everything. No drama. No judgement. Just the facts, ma'am. With a huge dose of compassion.
Dr. Madden's books are widely read and well reviewed. No surprise. She offers a sane, realistic approach to rebuilding a marriage after infidelity. This isn't a quick fix and she doesn't promise miracles. 
But her books are easy to understand, even by men unfamiliar with the language of self-help and therapy. She brings her personality to every page – empathetic, funny and warm, with a steady approach to guide men, women and couples through to healing from the pain, whether or not they choose to rebuild their marriage. 
Healing from infidelity, she says, "is a process of humility and soul-searching." Despite a career spent largely helping couples who've experienced a fracture in their relationship, she believes in marriage, she says. "With all its ups and downs." 

14 comments:

  1. Hi Elle, I'm a male and I follow your posts since I found out my wife cheated on me 2 years ago. I read all of them and it helped a lot. I didn't find such a interesting site for men so far. The only thing that bothers me is why so much statement like: men are stupid and such. What about women who cheat? Are they equally stupid? Do you think they behaved differently? My wife said she has done it because it give her an ego boost, that she didn't feel she was a good wife and a good mother. To me, it sounds like the same reasons a men would say.

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    1. Hi Anonymous,
      I think it's fair to say that Madden thinks "cheaters are stupid" because they so often misunderstand the situation they're in or lack the insight/self-awareness to really understand what they're doing -- ie. seeking an ego-boost.
      That said, and though it doesn't seem to be the case in your situation, women often cheat for different reasons than men. When women cheat (statistically speaking), they're looking for a way out of the marriage. When men cheat (statistically speaking), they have no intention of leaving their marriage. So, in that case, women who cheat aren't so much stupid as cowards.
      But suffice it to say, cheaters are stupid, cowardly people who wreak damage to others that most of them never anticipate.
      And I'm really glad you're here. And that the site has helped you. I hope you'll share your story here somewhere. We learn from each other, regardless of gender. Cheating is cheating is cheating. And it hurts.

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    2. Anon, you are a breath of fresh air. I wondered if men read this site. Just from what I read, women who cheat look for an emotional connection and tell themselves their husbands are not worth it. So it is more than just sex. What I read about the betrayed men sex is a big deal. It seems to me that is the biggest hurtle for a betrayed man is the sex part. Men seem to retreat more too in order to process this stuff alone. The hurt, anger and pain is universal. Cheater are stupid because they think they are not hurting anyone, as long as nobody finds out. Cheaters are stupid because they think they have it all under control. Someone wanting them for sex or romance helps the feelings of worth. They are getting away with something. She says she cheated because she wasn't a good mother or wife? That doesn't make any sense to me. So having an affair made her feel like a better what? I'm sorry I'm not getting it. She sounds like she is trying to be the victim (poor me). The affair is an ego boost. Male or female, I agree with you the reasons are the same. "I feel neglected. I crave intimacy. I'm bored. I never felt appreciated." I say from this site, the betrayed are not stupid at all. My thoughts are with you, 2 years out I was still a hot mess.

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  2. I love her approach and many of the thoughts you have shared here. It sounds and feels familiar. I am lucky in a way since my husband is a mental health professional and uses many of these same tools with others. My husband knew what he was doing. We have talked about it a lot and I think in general most men or cheaters are not as aware as he was.

    What hit me in the post was in our case at least my husband said on more than one occasion he wishes I would just be mad or angry. He would beg me not to cry. His response to things is either compartmentalize, suppress or anger. For me I turn inward or cry. I never get angry. He wanted that so bad since he understood that. And also he could not do anything about it when I cried. And he knew it was all because of him. I think this is a huge issue in recovery. My husband would always deflect, become defensive etc. We could never move forward. I would cry and break down unable to even form coherent thoughts. It was so unproductive. We were not fighting but we did not get anywhere. It took a lot of work and me trying a lot of things to break through all of this.

    I also totally agree with a man feels like they can only be happy, drunk or angry. This is my husband. He is always on, upbeat, life of the party, the one everyone wants to be with etc. But he is not that way all the time. And where did he escape, the ow for these affairs.

    Great post thanks for sharing her professional expertise!

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  3. I purchased this book when I found out about my husbands affair almost 4 years ago. It is written for the cheater. I actually gave it to my husband to read the first chapter. It is titled " Do you really want her back or are you just scared." I wanted him to read it before we tried any kind of re-building. I thought he needed to see it in black and white. I wanted to make sure he was not trying to work things out because of a false sense of commitment.
    So here we are and he is committed to making this relationship work. AS for me I still ride the fence of not being able to forgive. What is the irony of that! What Hopeful said about the man being happy, drunk, or angry hit home. The problem is my view on my marriage even before the affair is that I got the shit end of the stick. I got what was left over - the crumbs of the man who was my husband. So of course it burns me when I think of how easily he gave her the best of himself. The fun, loving, thoughtful boyfriend. Now he is that way as a husband and I tell you all it sometimes sickens me. What is wrong with me? Here he is doing it all right and I have contempt knowing that the OW got this first. I know what they had was a fantasy and that real life is not like that but the deception magnifies the hurt of what I am feeling. I keep thinking how in the hell can a person do that to someone else? He has to live with his children thinking less of him for the rest of his life. Unfortunately I think I will always think that too. Sadly, I think less of myself for not having the courage to leave.

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    1. Anonymous,
      I felt the same way. Total contempt for my husband. And disgust and shame with myself for not just kicking him out and striding into my future on four-inch stilettos, looking like a badass.
      And while I think that might have been momentarily satisfying, it wasn't what I really wanted. And it wouldn't have made what happened any less painful.
      In my case, by the time I felt ready to leave (ie. I wasn't a sobbing mess), I no longer wanted to. Watching my husband work so hard to deal with his own issues, to make amends, to become a better man helped me respect him. I admired his guts. I admired his willingness to fight so hard for our marriage.
      To some extent, while losing a family is hellish, some guys see it as easier than staying and working things out. Staying is tough. To have to face the pain you've caused, day after day. To have to witness the person you promised to cherish fall apart, become bitter, must be horrible.
      So yeah, I think a lot of us are convinced that we'll never feel anything but contempt. Our culture tends to shame those who stay -- we're doormats, pathetic, "chumps".
      I see it differently. I see the courage it takes to rebuild a relationship, to trust someone again. I see the wisdom gained from walking through the darkness into light.
      It's your call, of course. Some marriages have just met their expiration date and it's better for both partners to part ways. You get to decide which is the right path for you.
      But doing what you can to move past the anger (which is usually the mask that hurt wears) will help you make a more clear-headed solution. If you leave, leave because that's what you want. Not to make a point, or punish him, or because you think that's what you're supposed to do. And if you stay, as best you can, give him the space to show you that he deserves this second chance.

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  4. One thing I hated about this book was in a chapter 4 about advice for the husband regarding ending the relationship with the AP. It began with total transparency which was great. She started off good by saying it is good to have your wife there and put the AP on a Speaker phone when you end the relationship. She provided a handy little script. She then goes on to give a "tip" to the husband to first call the AP on a landline and WARN her about the speaker phone call. To tell the AP even though she was very special, your wife has found out and the affair is over. REALLY????? This is adding another deception to the wife. One that if the wife finds out may very well be the nail in the coffin. Her reasoning is that the AP wouldn't be caught off guard and left thinking the husband was a complete jerk. Seriously??? Newsflash - HE IS A COMPLETE JERK. Plus the AP should receive no consideration for her feelings. Was she thinking about the wives feelings when she was screwing the husband?
    Elle - If you ever call Caroline Madden again I would love to know why she thinks this would be in any way a good idea.

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    1. Hey Anonymous,
      I don't recall that part specifically, though I do recall the bit about calling the AP. I personally think that a straightforward phone call in which you tell the AP that your wife has found out, you are recommitting to the marriage and you expect no contact going forward. I don't agree with a heads-up phone call except... I can see that the AP might say something or do something that could traumatize the wife further. Give details, make threats, etc. Though in that case, their likely shouldn't be ANY other contact, including a speaker-phone conversation.
      In any case, I've contacted Dr. Madden and asked for her input. Will let you know what I discover.
      I don't agree entirely with what she says -- including her firm conviction that men shouldn't confess affairs that are over if the wife doesn't know about them -- but I respect that she has come to her beliefs after years and years of working with both betrayeds and betrayers. Vive la difference!

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    2. I personally disagree with a wayward not disclosing an affair that is over and in the past. I know every situation is different and she has seen so many while in her practice. However for me based on this I would never know anything. My husband ended both affairs at least 15 months before dday. There were huge ramifications for both of us. Even though he made that decision on his how and planned to never cheat it hung over him. He said it was a barrier and he was still detached during that time. There were highs and lows but as long as that secret existed it was a wedge between us. He was still miserable and unhappy since he was living with this secret and lying every day to me no matter how good he was being in the present. For me I was still being gaslighted. Nothing made sense in our marriage. There some great times but something was still off. I sank to some of my lowest points during this time since I could not figure out what was going on and all I could do was blame myself. My husband lied to my face when asked directly about anything or of course it was my fault. I was too sensitive, worried too much, too tired, needed to find my own things to do etc... I could go on. So I totally disagree with that. I am sure at some point I would have divorced him and hopefully not killed myself. I know that is harsh but that was the point I was at. After years of feeling these highs and lows and the gaslighting I felt like that was my only option. I still thank him all the time for telling me.

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    3. That's exactly my argument against keeping it a secret. I think a secret of that magnitude can't help but drive a wedge in a relationship. That said, there are women who've said they wished they didn't know. Not too many but some.
      And yes, I suspect we would have ended up divorced too if he hadn't had his reckoning and gone into therapy. I couldn't have lived with that level of detachment. I too was "too sensitive" but I KNEW for a long time that something wasn't right.
      It's an enormous act of courage to tell someone and, I daresay, an act of kindness. To put someone else's right to know above your own comfort is pretty amazing. And though it causes pain, it isn't really the TELLING that causes the pain but the CHEATING.

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    4. So...I do have a reply from Dr. Madden and, to sum it up, it's essentially that she thinks this approach reduces the likelihood that the OW, who, she points out, is possibly in love with your husband and thinks it's a matter of time before he leaves you, creates more problems. Dr. Madden's goal is to help the cheating husband, whom the book is written for, extract himself from the affair and recommit to his marriage. So the "pre-call" is to basically make it clear to the OW that this is HIS decision (ie. his wife is forcing him to call) and that it is final. Ideally, that reduces the chance of theatrics, hysterics, etc. Theoretically...
      So, I get it. I can see why, after watching this play out in, literally, hundreds of couples, this is what she deems the best approach.

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    5. Elle, This sounds similar to my husband's take on dealing with the ow. As you know he broke it off. But his take even then was tell them whatever you have to in order to detach and diffuse the situation. He said when he broke it off even though I had no clue he realized they might be somewhat crazy, upset, confrontational etc since they were willing to cheat with him.

      Shortly after dday I was wanting to reach out to them, confront them, have us reach out to make sure they knew I knew and it was over forever. His thought pattern was he had broke it off and why reach out to them. I guess why open Pandora's box. It was hard for me to wrap my head around. In the end we settled on if either ow contacted him he needed to tell me asap and together we would decide what to do.

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    6. I will have to disagree with Dr. Madden. The pre call is then just another lie to a wife who has been kept in the dark long enough. Even the dialog is filled with false hope his AP would most likely read into by telling the AP she was very special? By not telling the wife he spoke to the AP he might as well stick another knife in the wife’s back. I would think the risk of theatrics is better than what in all purposes is another betrayal. Another secret the AP and husband share which is exactly what you don’t want.
      Thanks for asking though! I appreciate it. I know I’m opinionated but from my own experience, if my husband pulled that stunt it would have eroded any trust that was left (if any). I’m hyper sensitive about communication. My husband worked with his AP who was also a friend of the family. I worried about them reconnecting constantly. When he left the job he loved to find another was the day healing started.
      Your blog is very insightful and I started reading a blog you follow written from a cheating wife. It’s a tough read but so is all of this!

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  5. Elle
    I’m one of those that had the cow that thought my h was being a coward for choosing to repair our marriage instead of a divorce because ‘they were so in love’... she was impossible to get rid of without police involved and the harassment case. Fortunately, after about a year and a half she finally stopped circling around our neighborhood...so in my situation, I wish it would have been my coward of a man who told me instead of allowing his cow to torture me with so much truth...yep that’s the most painful part for me just as painful as the betrayal...

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