 |
| Curiosity might kill the cat. But it won't kill you. |
Other times we broach tougher topics and then he says something...stupid. Wrong. Woefully uninformed. Or at least that's my assessment of it. My heart beats faster. My voice goes up a pitch. I wonder, briefly, what I'm doing with this idiot.
It might have been about how to manage our daughter's struggles at school. It might have been about a bathroom renovation we're planning. It might have been about something on this site that I mentioned in order to get his input.
Whatever it was, he gave me a stupid answer.
Or was it?
When others present me with information that differs from my own views of things, I become curious instead of angry. In fact, I make my living as a journalist and I'm often confronted with people who hold different opinions than I. I don't immediately write them off as losers. Instead, I ask questions. "Why do you think that?" I might ask. "How did you reach that conclusion?" I might ask. "Where do you get your information?" I might probe. "That's interesting," I might say. "Tell me more."
I began to wonder if that approach might work with my husband. I wanted to be able to talk with him about things – all things – without the immediate impulse to call a divorce lawyer.
It was hard at first. I had to bite my tongue. Hard.
But the more I learned about his thinking, the more I realized that those "stupid" opinions he had weren't so stupid because I understood how he'd reached them. His "dumb" response to problems wasn't so dumb when I discovered that he was struggling too, that he didn't have all the answers and he was just searching in the dark like the rest of us.
And when I was able to just be curious with him, I gave him the freedom to not have all the answers, which has always been his own issue. He has trouble saying "I don't know" so he rarely does. With my probing, he sometimes had to own up to the truth that he didn't know. That he couldn't know because he didn't have all the information he needed. We began to collaborate more on solutions. I gave him the benefit of the doubt when he said something "stupid" and gave him the opportunity to explain his point of view.
And...whattaya know? Turns out he's a decent, smart, open-minded guy with some great ideas, something I had sometimes forgotten about him.
Whether you're staying together or moving on separately after betrayal, chances are there are going to be some tough conversations in your future. It can feel like a minefield. You lay your heart on the line and he says something "stupid". You share your pain and he shuts you down. Our knee jerk response is to withdraw. Or to lash out. Or to put a divorce lawyer on speed dial.
But what if you tried curiosity? Do your best to detach and not take it so personally (I know, I know. It takes a lot of practice!) "Why do you say that?" you might say. "What makes you think that?" you might say. "Why is it hard for you to hear that?" you might ask. "What is you need from me right now?" Even "can we set a time to talk about this later? I think it's important."
He might not have the answers. But you've opened the door to them.
And if his responses reveal a decent guy who's confused, then that's good to know. Even if they reveal a not-so-decent guy who isn't the least bit interested in learning more, that's good information to have. Get the lawyer on speed dial.
But no matter how it turns out, you'll have more information than you started with. And you can use that information to help you navigate your path through this pain.
This is a great post and I find my nature is to ask a lot of questions and think a lot about any topic. I think for me it does allow me to feel some control or like I am taking action. I do probe a lot and I tend to get the response back that's he is not sure since he does not think about things like I do. I am not sure if he really means he is so simple he litterally does not think about things. I am not sure. I have tried to probe in this more lately but with the current work stress it continues to get put off. I want to know exactly what he is thinking. I think that is very helpful. Recently I asked him why when he drinks is he more open and emotional? He said to me "am I?". Hmmm then I think does he not remember. Add it to the list of what to talk about when he work stress is over today,
ReplyDeleteI have experienced this on some level too. Before Dday, I was much more likely to think that my H was totally "off base" and out of touch with any and every topic. I was certain I was a better parent and really just constantly nudging him along so he could finally "get on board" with what he needed to be doing/saying. I kept my frustrations to myself mostly because I wanted to be a good wife and support his growth and be a good friend. Then my world blew up with the knowledge that my marriage was not what I thought it was. When we unpacked all the events that lead up to his choices, it became clear to me that my tone alone was enough to let him know that I thought he was stupid. The truth is, I did. I was running around being super mom and anxiously making things perfect, and he just wanted to "be" and to "connect"--but he never said that. Not even to himself. I'm not blaming my resentment for his affairs. They are separate sins interwoven into what used to be our happy marriage. Our happy marriage now requires that I stop spinning with anxiety and getting things just right. That I slow down, connect, and "just be" with my H. It requires him to speak up about what he wants/needs/fears and to not look for these things/solutions elsewhere and with other people. Now when I get that twinge that he's stupidly not on board, I ask questions and see where he is. Surprisingly to me, 5 times out of 10 his perspective turns out to be not just OK, but downright more centered and thoughtful than my own when it comes to parenting, etc. It is me who is oftentimes missing the forest for the trees. When I wasn't asking and staying curious about his perspective, my view got narrow and I had a tendency to spin off in my own direction. I told my friend recently that some of these difficult conversations feel like a relay race. If I race too far ahead of my partner, I can't hand off the baton. If I slow down to match his pace better, we're better off as a team.
ReplyDeleteI love your take on this Ann .. makes sense .. it's like music to my ears .. xx
DeleteWow, Ann, I was exactly in your shoes. Convinced I was a "better" parent, a "better" spouse, a "better" friend. Even writing that makes me realize I was probably quite insufferable, at least at times. And your'e right -- certainly doesn't make cheating okay but to the emotionally closed off person, those feelings of constant inadequacy certainly make them more vulnerable to an affair.
DeleteLike you, I've learned that I don't have to be "perfect" to be valued and loved (that was my anxiety). And, like you, I've learned that my kids can thrive with two different parents who come at things from their own perspective. There are many things he does better than I do, frankly. He sometimes stuns me with his insights. And I have my own strengths. A good team, indeed.
I did that with my husband the other night. I still had questions about things 19 months ago that didn't make sense. So I let him talk. I asked him why if you wanted to get rid of her so badly did you answer her emails. He said that he needed someone to talk to. That it was always us that talked and worked things out together but, because he hurt me and kids so bad he felt that she was the only one he could talk to. Of course she didn't care about any of our pain. She was only interested in still trying to manipulate him. I think that after he realized that this was the wrong way to go about it he tried to get rid of her for good but, she wasn't going to take no for an answer. It was when he finally told her that he would take legal action against her if she didn't leave him alone. He had been going to counseling for the suicide attempt but, they really didn't talk about why this all happened. They just talked about him not wanting to harm anymore. He was scared about how I would react. He felt so ashamed of himself for getting caught up in this mess that nearly destroyed him and his family. After his suicide attempt we were able to sit and help each other get through the worst time of our lives. One thing that did bother me where his counselor was concerned, she told him after just a few months, if I can't get past this then he should consider divorcing me. A few months later he stopped going to her and we worked things out more on our own.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, That's an amazing story and kudos to you for being able to really hear HIS pain when you're mired in your own. As for that counsellor? Clearly someone who just doesn't understand the impact of infidelity. "A few months??" Give me a break.
DeleteOK, part 2 is even better than Part 1 and after Part 1 I had an opportunity to practice Part 2 without even knowing it was coming. On the way to an event a couple of days ago, after Part 1, I shared with my H that I read an interesting article in a scientific magazine about a research study on hot/cold as it related intimacy and attachment. He immediately piped up in what I perceived as a very negative way about research being skewed, blah, blah, blah and that when he was in graduate school they had an entire class devoted to picking research apart. Well I didn't say anything to him at the time because we were on a long drive to a special event. I thought about it a lot and brought it up the next day and told him how I perceived his response. He was shocked that I took it the way I did as he said he did not mean to respond in a negative or combative way. So I said, "I was just trying to share this with you and I felt attacked because you had not even read the article which made it even worse for me." We agreed that if he had simply said, "That sounds interesting, let me read it and then I'll let you know what I think." I would have felt better. I explained a little about John Gottman's research about turning toward you spouse when they say something to you and giving a little feedback. I'm going to look that up and send it to him. We are doing so well at the moment. I'm doing my best to ask thoughtful questions and I'm also doing my best to remind him that he can be a little more thoughtful and kind when he has strong emotional reactions to things that I say. It wasn't negative toward me but it shut me down and made me feel small and unimportant which was not his intent. In the past I would have stewed and probably not even tried to engage him for weeks. Bringing this up is huge for me and I think for us. Being on the beach can be hard for me because of all the almost naked young women but I remind myself that I have choices if he makes choices I don't like and he tells me that he doesn't even "see" these women anymore like he use to. Life is so much better at them moment. Thank you Elle. You are a gem. I hope your vacation went well.
ReplyDeleteBG,
DeleteThat happens to me all the time. Anytime someone (especially my husband) responds strongly to something I've said (even a magazine story, or whatever), I immediately feel small and invisible and dismissed. And while my husband can learn to be more respectful in his responses, I also have to take responsibility for my reaction to it. That's about old stuff, in my case. It's about ALWAYS feeling small and invisible and dismissed. Important to discuss with our spouses, sure. But also important for us to realize where we need to take responsibility for our responses and do our own work.
Sorry if this is a duplicate. I think I have issues when I type a reply on my cell phone.
DeleteSo glad things are going well for you Beach Girl and how great you are utilizing the info in these posts. I do agree sometimes it just has to be taking in and absorbing more than commenting. Over time and being together so long it is easy to just blurt out what you think and want to say without thinking about the other person.
Gottman was a big influence on my husband. He knew all about him due to his profession. He came home in the first week with the article Masters of Love in The Atlantic. It is a great article especially for those who don't want to tackle all of his books. It is a good starting off point. I read all of his books and I like how some deal with betrayal but many deal with marriage issues which I have found to be more helpful as we navigate past the initial phases of dealing with all of this.
The article talks a lot about all of this especially turning towards your spouse. It was I think an ah ha moment for my husband. He basically isolated himself since if what I was doing or interested in (tv show, book, volunteering, even things with our kids) but he did not see value he would even knock me for putting my time and energy into them. He would always say I never asked you to do that. And he had zero interest. But what he figured out is he put no effort into me or us. He was just really selfish and self centered. It is silly and even simple but he will not let me watch any tv show without him even if he does not care for it. he might fall asleep but he is by my side. He takes an interest in all I do. Big change.
So glad you are doing well!
Elle and Hopeful 30, thank you for the feedback. The article you referred to Hopeful 30 is the exact article I was trying to find so a big thank you for that! The next time I feel it is right I'm going to send it to my husband and ask him to read it. He is not a "social science" type of guy historically but he has read everything I sent him over this past almost 22 months. I'm not sure how I will feel at the 2 year antiversary in June but I have some ideas of how to celebrate it positively. In some ways I see it as his "sobriety" date from porn and prostitutes. The desire and urge may have been there but he has not acted on either of them since his disclosure. Seems kind of weird to celebrate that but it is the date he truly stopped acting out and started becoming the man I always thought he was.
DeleteWow. This is great. So many things resonate here. In May, it will be 2 years since D day for me and I'm dreading the time leading up to it. He does still stay stupid shit. He shows anger and frustration and every day things, and I find I have no tolerance. I hope I can come around to a place where I feel more empathetic, but I'm not there now. I have deep anger still.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I no longer see our therapist because when my husband walked out of our last appointment, muttering something about not wanting to hear anymore, she turned to me and said, "do you know how hard it must be to be trying and still hear about the wrong you're done?"
Um. No way. I narrowed my eyes at her and I responded, "do you know how hard it is to live in the same small town as the next door neighbor he fucked? To run into her at school functions?"
She agreed that must be hard.
Yeah, I'm not there yet.
Tryme
DeleteI can't even imagine running into the cow in our world but to still be neighbors must be extremely hard to swallow! I'm sure all of us hear stupid shit from our h from time to time. I know I do but the difference now is I tell him how what he says makes me feel even if it makes him feel bad. I speak up or else find myself dealing with resentment which for me is even worse to wade through. I'm so sorry this is still so painful for you! Keep venting here! I found that very beneficial for me! Just getting it all out! Probably too many times but it really has helped me through some painful parts of this new life!
Tryme,
DeleteI'm really sorry for the stupid comment by your counsellor. But...BEST. COMEBACK. EVER. I bow to you.
I would encourage you to talk to your husband about the anti-versary that's coming up. Tell him how painful it is and ask if you two can brainstorm about ways to get through it without you wanting to rip his face off. Ignore it? Take a mini-vacation out of town? Open a bottle of champagne and share stories of the OW's worst qualities? What works for you. And then see if he'll get on board. It's surprising sometimes how these awful bits can actually pull you back together as allies.
Tryme, That is really horrible what your therapist said. I know it is not easy for the wayward but my therapist has been very supportive saying my husband basically needs to do what I need him to do and suck it up. He had years (mine had 10 years) of doing what he wanted in a trusting relationship that he violated. And if he wants any chance at this working it needs to start with what I need. It is not always that easy and clear cut but it was important for me to hear that. One thing my therapist said is that typically most women put everyone else first and I know I did so he wanted me to me more selfish and protective of myself. He said that was important vs watching out for my husbands feelings. For us being together and married so long yet young still I find that so many of our communications and behaviors sink back into old habits. It is a challenge but I would say maybe try to find a therapist that is more supportive not that they have to be "on your side". I do love your comeback. Good for you!
DeleteWow I made read this over thousand times. These past two weeks it feels like we are on opposite ends of the world on our views and wants and guess what it's not over the his fuck up of his affair though that might be intensifying things but we are at an impasse about older kids pulling their weight and when to cut ties with footing there bills. I want them to start picking up some my husband is fine to keep paying ... view different, arguing like cats and dogs and we can't seem to reach a common ground. I said we are working to the 2 year mark from dday and we felt good to this disagreementioned now that has us so far apart and asking each other where do we go from here? Strange right. Perhaps I need to be more curious lessen my tone but have to we get to where we can come up with a plan that we agree on? Not his way nor mine but one formed together with some give and take? Idk ... really struggling this week and we both feel disconnected bcuz of it .... hummmm i will reread the post. He won't go to counseling over it so here I float in the sea of limbo again ... trying to keep us afloat.
ReplyDeleteWounded, Even if he won't go to counselling, do you? It can be really helpful to have an objective third-party to bounce things off.
DeleteAs for the argument re. your kids: Can each of you listen to the other explain your feelings around this? What's really behind it? I suspect it's not so much the actions but the fears/anxieties behind them. For instance, are you afraid that your kids won't learn responsibility or how to pay their own way? What are your own experiences around money/support? What are your husband's? Does it make him feel important to be the provider? Does he feel it keeps the kids more tethered to him? If you can pull back from what exactly you're going to DO about the problem and just examine why you each feel why you do, you might learn about each other. Try and be non-judgemental. Money is a HUGE issue in most relationships, so you're not alone. And money carries a TON of baggage for most of us. It's a hot-button topic. But see if you can see what's behind your feelings about it.
Would you let me know where on this site is the best place to go and share my story? I'd like to participate more, but I feel like an introduction would be in order! Thank you for this site ❤
ReplyDeletePeriwinkle,
DeleteStart where you are. It really doesn't matter. Some post in the "Just Found Out..." or "Feeling Stuck" forums. But the most current posts get the most traffic and are more likely to be seen, I think. There's no "right" place to post...so whenever you're ready!
Great reminder and good timing for me.
ReplyDeleteMy DH and I have recently been away for a night and started MC this has led to me opening my heart to him.
I can see the huge connection between my attitude and how many stupid things my DH says.
When I am more open and gentle and receptive, so is he.
Beach girl I will have to look at John Got than as that sounds helpful. Releasing each other to give feedback so the other is heard without needing to express an opinion is a great idea.
John Gottman is amazing and something of a gold standard in the marriage issues world.
DeleteSo, my H used porn this AM, I found it on his computer. He promised me multiple times in the past he would quit, but I made it a boundary after the most recent Dday. Sad thing is we have both put SO much effort into marriage recovery - a faith based retreat, weekly MC, psychiatrist, vacations, new memories, apologies, love letters - you name it, he/we did it. I am mentally done. Off the ride. Called my lawyer. Unfortunately, I have business travel 3 of the next 6 days and no other child care; plus I want to line up everything with the lawyer before I confront him. Already got advice from the MC and priest who told me not to kick him out TODAY. I wish I had more support locally - we have no family - some strong male figure needs to kick his ass. I'm ready to start dating... there has GOT to be someone better out there than this roller-coaster.
ReplyDeleteBrowneyedgirl,
DeleteI am so sorry. I wish you had family or physical support close by. Sending you hugs and wishing you strength!
BEG,
DeleteYep, you sound done. And I don't blame you. At a certain point, he has to want to be better. When everyone else is trying harder than he is, then there's a problem.
But it's HIS problem. And I think you know that.
One teensy bit of advice? I would avoid dating until you feel on more solid ground. I'm convinced we can't really attract (or recognize!) emotionally healthy people until we're seeing clearer ourselves. I'd encourage you to really just focus on you. Just my motherly advice. ;)
BEG, I second what Steam wrote. Porn is a problem for our guys. If they can't kick it and won't get help to kick it then there is no trust. I found out the exact same info Steam did about my hubby. Porn was just the tip of his iceberg into hell. Our understanding and boundary is no porn, no prostitutes or we are done. I'm not that nice to try it again. I'm wiped out emotionally and getting back on track. It feels pretty good to be on track again so I don't blame your for getting your ducks in a row. Peace and love and hugs to you.
DeleteBEG, it sounds like you reached your limit. You sound sure, resolved and have a plan. "He promised multiple times" sounds like a multiple deal breaker. You deserve better for yourself whatever "that better" may take you. It is ok to stop wanting to live your life with someone who can't control looking at OW. It is your life and we can't get time back once its gone. Strong love arrows coming your way. I admire your strength.
ReplyDeleteBEG, two years ago or three or five I would have wondered what the big deal was, with the porn. I always considered myself the cool one, ya know, porn was no big deal. I had NO idea at the time that porn, in my H's life was so much more than just a little looking or masterbating now and then--it was his gateway to a life that REVOLVED around sexualizing just about everything in his daily life, with me, or with strangers. It was just a symptom of his sexual addiction or sexual compulsion. I think now it totally IS about YOUR boundary and not how or why HE uses porn. If you don't like it you have every right in the world to tell him to gtfo. and omg, i highly recommend some "you" time before sharing your precious time with anyone else. You're going to love you!!
ReplyDeleteSo I did speak to an attorney. Our MC, my priest, and my one friend that knows all advised that I shouldn't kick H out over porn THIS time, but to set a clearer boundary and have H agree to an addiction eval. There were some significant bad things that have happened to H in the past 2 weeks. I am not making excuses for H. I do see their point that I never previously said 'if I find porn it's a deal breaker', I said 'promise me you will never use porn again' and H agreed (several times). Semantics maybe? IDK. Porn was H's gateway drug to cyber affairs and 1 PA. So many people think porn is no big deal - I was one of them for many years. Until I learned how much of it H had, how much of our $ he spent for online access and what it led to (desensitization, wanting me less, on-line dating, etc.). I am no longer going to rescue H from himself. If H starts to drown again, I'm not going down with him if there is a next time.
ReplyDelete