We need to talk about self-respect. Lately I've been reading so many comments from women struggling to figure out how to talk to their partners about porn use, about contact with the OW, about attending events solo, about employment where the OW works too.
On the whole, the women who come to this site are amazing. Compassionate, supportive. And oh-so-giving. They give wonderful advice to each other, they give heartfelt "me toos!" to each other But they also give the benefit of the doubt to the husband who refuses to disclose his passwords. They try to be "reasonable" with the husband whose job keeps him in regular contact with the women he cheated with. They give until it hurts. By which I mean, they give even after it hurts themselves. They just keep giving.
Until there's almost nothing left of themselves. Or at least nothing they recognize.
And then they berate themselves for being "weak" or pathetic.
They are neither of those things.
They are empathetic and want, desperately, to be able to believe in the people they love. In many other situations, that would be wonderful – a great way to connect open-heartedly.
But this is not any other situation. This is a situation in which this person they love has shown he cannot be trusted.
It's that simple.
It doesn't matter if he says he's learned his lesson, or he didn't mean to hurt you, or he was lost and now he's found. None of that matters.
What matters is that he has shown – clearly – that he cannot be trusted.
Hopefully, the day will come when that can be said in the past tense. That he could not be trusted...but now he can. That day comes after he walks away from the job in which he has regular contact with the OW, when he doesn't mind when you look at his e-mails, when he makes it clear that he will not go anywhere without you until you feel okay with it, when he seeks treatment for porn addiction, or substance abuse, or because he cheated on someone he's terrified to lose.
But that's not now. Now, he cannot be trusted.
And so you have absolutely no choice if you are to respect yourself but to respond in a way that keeps you emotionally safe.
You cannot go to an event in which I'm not also invited.
You cannot stay in a job in which you have regular contact with the OW.
You cannot continue to access porn when it is clearly a problem.
You must give me access to any and all devices/accounts.
You must attend therapy.
You must attend a 12-step group.
You must accompany me to couples counselling.
What you are saying with each of these statements is NOT that you are difficult or suspicious or unsupportive or demanding or unreasonable or not understanding of just how difficult it is for this poor beleaguered cheater.
No, what you are saying is this: I respect myself too much to remain in a situation in which I don't feel emotionally safe.
You are saying that you are willing to give him the chance to show you, day by day, week by week, that he has learned his lesson, that he was lost but now he's found.
But for now, you will operate on the information you have: That he cannot be trusted.
You will hear all sorts of "woe is me" stuff. It's hard – no, impossible! – to find a new job. It's humiliating when you scroll through my texts! It's unfair to expect me to say 'no' to social events just because you feel uncomfortable! We can't afford counselling! And on and on and on. And on.
Puh-leeze.
Cry me a goddamned river.
He created a situation in which he made it brutally clear that HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED and now he's upset that you're responding as if HE'S SOMEONE WHO CANNOT BE TRUSTED?
Wow. Poor guy. Life's rough when you have to deal with the consequences of your choices.
But that's, ummm, life. We teach our five-year-olds that.
We also teach people how to treat us. And if we've spent a lifetime (or at least a marriage) teaching our partner that it's okay to disrespect us, in ways large and small, then it's time to write a new script.
The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
Elle...all I can say is thank you. I needed this. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteI feel what you wrote is directed straight at me. Loool.
ReplyDeleteThis means that you do not skim read the posts. You put effort,you read carefully and you care.
I did find myself in what you wrote. My h has been telling me about every interaction that happens between him and the ow. I talked to him about my feelings lately and about his moods. He gets angry first then (I think after taking it in) he understands.
I think the problem now is that I'm letting the ugly out. Stuff like (well when you said that to her did you say can't or won't). (Did it take you a minute or longer to have that conversation?) (Did you remember to leave your office door open).
I was never that person. In my 12 years of marriage I never asked him where he was when he had to work out of office and now I'm asking enough questions to make sure that it's as if I was there at work with him.
I'm now the insecure jealous woman. I'm embarrassed by my attitude and the questions I ask. Trying to tone it down. But I must know. I can't help that. But you are right he gets angry because in his mind he thinks I should trust him because he's the one that ended the affair 2 months ago. TRUE. But I never asked him where he was before because we've known each other for 6 years before getting married and 12 years in marriage so I completely trusted him. Also because I was the wife that packed him a lunch bag for work, kissed him at the door and waited for him for dinner no matter how late he came home. I would always call him when one of the kids did something special or funny. We have history . That's why I trusted him. But now it's different. We have to make new history and pass by enough events for me to get to that level of trust again (If it does come back; i pray that it does).
It's like this: You have a friend who you routinely invite over to your home. You like this friend. You trust this friend. Then this friend sits you down and tells you that he's been stealing from you. You're shocked. You hadn't really noticed anything missing but, now that you think about it, where did that camera go? Or that laptop? Your friend is sorry. He's confessing. He wants you to let it go and trust him again. To keep inviting him over for dinner.
DeleteWhat do you do? You have history. You really cared about this person.
So...even with doubts, you agree to keep inviting this person over.
But, c'mon, you'd be crazy to not be vigilant about your stuff. To, perhaps, hide the valuables. To do a quick inventory when he leaves. To ask him where he got the money for that new leather jacket.
Most guys would completely get this scenario. But they're baffled by our insecurity or hyper-vigilance in the wake of betrayal. It's bizarre to me.
He violated your trust. And now he needs to earn that back. And he earns that back by showing you, day after day after day, that he will make the choice that's best for his marriage. Always.
What's more...you're asking him! You're still relying on him to be honest with you. The guy who deceived you. He should appreciate that you're allowing HIM to inform you of his moves (rather than, say, asking someone else in the office to inform you, which is what I did!).
Emma, this is really hard work. And it's harder when the person who cheated on us has expectations about our response to it that just don't jibe with reality. It takes a long time to earn trust back. It takes hard work to rebuild a marriage. Lots of people aren't up to it. Lots of cheaters can't handle the guilt and shame and walk away. Easier, they think, to avoid the consequences of their actions than man up.
I hope your husband has what it takes to make amends and to learn from his horrible mistake. But please, give yourself a break. You are responding like someone who has been lied to, who has been cheated on. That's all. You won't always be this person. But you are now. Be gentle with yourself.
Emma,
DeleteI too have become this insecure jealous woman . Most days I don't even recognize myself. I feel like I'm the one that has been something wrong. And most days I don't even like myself much less my husband. But I'm determined to make things work, I just have to take it one day at a time.
Good luck to you
This topic came up in my IC today - she believes my wh has been honest with me, but also thinks I should monitor his email and texts. He travels most days so I don't see his phone or computer then. When he's home, I have access. Does anyone monitor their spouse? This is a real tender issue with me - I had access to his iPad during the affair and never looked at it once - it never occurred to me to open his emails. We've been together almost 30 years, Id never looked. So I feel very foolish for the time I lost when everything was under my nose. I thought I was respecting the marriage, but as we know, it has to flow both ways. Ugh. Anyways I'm curious because I think I should do it for peace of mind. DDay was almost 3 years ago, the affair ended 4 years ago and I still feel like a giant horse's ass.
ReplyDeletelemondrop1966,
DeleteLike you, I never looked at my husband's phone, computer, etc. I trusted him. And I had a life to live. I wasn't cheating but, frankly, I would have considered him checking my phone/computer to be a little creepy.
But I think of the checking less as policing a person's actions than as a way to rebuild trust. It's the willingness of the cheater to allow themselves to checked on that can help with healing. It's not foolproof, of course. There are burner phones, hidden e-mails, etc. A determined cheater will find a way.
So it really only works with repentant cheaters -- those who really do want to do the right thing and are willing to allow themselves to be scrutinized.
Peace of mind is a perfectly good reason to do it. I checked for a while and then, frankly, got a bit bored. I haven't checked in, literally, years. I'm kinda to a point now where if really wants to cheat -- go for it. I'll find out sooner or later and then it's absolutely over. I feel confident he knows that.
I'm 8 months out and ever since DDay I've been tracking his phone. I installed an app that allows me to block what I don't want him to visit online and I can block certain calls and monitor his texts all from my phone. I can also track him thanks to sprint family locator and see when he leaves work and where he goes. I hate that I have to do it, but I have no choice.
DeleteThis post is helpful. What I have found is we both developed habits as a couple and individually over the 25+ years we have been together. I have found beyond the general affair pain that this recovery process has been focused on ourselves individually and also as a couple how we deal with everything. When we are under more pressure then I notice we both slide back into old habits more easily. We both work really hard to combat this. We see things differently but I have made a point to speak up. I will not be the one to not ask a question or the let something slide. Nope not going to do it. I often phrase it as this is how it or what you are doing makes me feel whether that is your intention. He honestly is so focused and bothered by anything to do with the affairs, other women etc. He continues to say he has not done anything in the 2 1/2+ years that I could not have been at his side. That has been his entire focus. So now I shift it to what type of marriage do we want going forward beyond the infidelity issue. For me it is so much more and yet it is all connected. The biggest step my husband has taken beyond being faithful is to not be defensive when we talk. That really would just shut me down and I would bottle everything up. I remember the exact conversation where I told him if he is always going to be defensive as his go to move this will not work. I cannot be in a relationship with him. That got his attention. He claimed it was him trying to fix things. No not really it was him trying to stop any negative discussions since he felt like it was always about him. Well after what he did it was about him and too bad. I have worked really hard to be more matter of fact and gather my thoughts. I find our discussions are more productive at this point if we are both focused and more level headed.
ReplyDeleteThat is still a struggle of ours too, Hopeful30. My husband's default position is defensiveness. He always ALWAYS assumes the worst from me and it's tiring and demoralizing. But he assumes the worst from everybody. Meditation has helped him a lot to be comes less reactive and more responsive. To counteract his knee-jerk defensiveness and really think about what's being said/done and how he'd like to respond.
DeleteBut he's a work in progress....
Emma
ReplyDeleteYes! The one thing I have learned from this blog is that Elle truly does care about each and everyone of us stumbling down this path! She encouraged me through my 'showing my ugly side'! My h had to endure several vicious attacks of omg! My wife is as bat shit crazy as the ow is! This happened during the first 18 months post dday. Now she's encouraging me to seek counseling with my h. Something I asked for in the beginning but he was only willing to send me to a therapist, his cow was/is a lousy councilor so he wasn't willing, then after months of my crazy outbursts, he suggested we go together but then I was hesitant because we were doing so much better and then when she kept trying to contact, I decided to wait and watch him for this whole first year before I suggest we seek help with intimacy. We have the sex part down pat, but he has a hard time speaking his feelings. This isn't new but in our past I just accepted that is the way he is. I'm planning to ask for this to be my Christmas present this year and I'm hoping to get started in January. Now breathe deep and wait for it to happen! That's my plan...
Elle,
ReplyDeleteThank you, this was moving to me. It felt like a compassionate hug and a push in the right direction. Speaking up has been one of the hardest 'new' things I've had to learn! It still doesn't feel comfortable, especially when there's the dreaded push back that follows. Intellectually, I do know it's necessary and that keeps me motivated. The steps I've made towards living in self respect have been rewarding!
Truth,
DeleteThe dreaded pushback or, as we call it on this site, countermoves. They have a purpose, of course. To get you to back down. If you see them as strategic rather than personal, it's easier to not react. If you can take that step back and say to yourself, "ah, I see he's responding with anger/aggression/sulking/pouting/wailing/whatever" then you can give him the side-eye and go about your business. "Happy to talk about this when you can speak to me respectfully" became my pat response -- to my children as well as my husband. I had a knot in my stomach because I wasn't used to standing in my own power. I used to get angry back, or frustrated, or hurt. None of which was helpful.
Or think of it this way: He's asking you to forgive the one thing he promised not to do to you when he said his vows. So that's what he's asking. What are you asking for in return? Respect. Support. Honesty. Transparency. Therapy?
Ladies - I found a quote that I had retweeted a few years ago, but it really struck me today and I wanted to share. This came from @motivatedliving on Twitter: "Nothing is more beautiful than a real smile, that has struggled through tears."
ReplyDeleteLadies - let's let our beautiful smiles shine! :)
"There was a time when you were five years old, and you woke up full of awesome. Somewhere along the line, so many little girls lose that, without ever considering maybe the people trying to take their awesome are full of shit." This was from a blog called pigtailpals.com that doesn't seem to exist anymore. It popped up on my Facebook memories from 2011. I'm finally starting to figure out that the people who took away my awesome (or who I allowed to take away my awesome) are, indeed, full of shit.
ReplyDeleteStart taking back your awesome. And be nice to yourself when you feel less than awesome, or notice that maybe you let someone take some of your awesome (because at least you are noticing).
Still Standing 1
DeleteI found it :) It is awesome! Thanks for sharing.
http://pigtailpalsblog.com/2011/08/waking-up-full-of-awesome/#.WbLuSJP5hHc
Heartfelt, yay! Thanks for finding the original piece. I had been thinking of my tween daughter back when I first posted it on social media, but I think it applies to all of us.
DeleteI'm feeling confused but am working to try to understand what goes on between my husband and I. It's taken me this long (3 years since D-day 1) to really take some proactive self-care action (I'm doing some online, supported courses for anxiety and depression.) But alongside what happened with the affair are some serious interaction issues between my husband and myself, my anxiety and depression looking for support, pointing out where I need help or where he falls down, his extreme defensiveness and understably his feeling that he is failing or that I'm pointing out flaws. Again, I've found some great material on the kinds of bad interactions we have, I actually bought a book I said we both needed to go through (last Jan) but it hasn't been put into practice yet. This also rings true http://www.compassionpower.com/intimate-relationship-dynamics-2/ I have a long way to come and I will follow up these online courses with whatever is necessary to get me out of this devastasting place of anxiety and depression. Problem is my husband and these poor interactions cause so much of the anxiety. I'm trying to tackle things within myself and repair the hurt my mental health problems (exacerbated by the affair) have caused the family. I'm urging him to do work on himself and for us to work together on the bad dynamics as soon as possible to see if we actually have a chance. There are good feelings between us but we seem to destroy each other in these cycles and it often feels that its a journey too far, esp with my husband's quite stunted emotional awareness. We had a slip back to porn use in April (without telling me - he admits he might never have told me) and as far as I can tell he seems to have lied about a smaller matter (letting a relative know, and apologise for, us not attending a party). He says he texted but the person did not receive a text and I checked the phone - nothing. I would not have checked just that it seems like something he might hide because he would expect me to be angry. In summary, I really don't have a good idea or faith in where he is at at the moment and whether we can break old moulds, he is always defensive instead of compassionate and I am trying to learn new ways to ask for things without criticizing. It's all headwrecking and I'm so fearful I will get dragged back to the pit of anxiety and depression if this continues with him, I feel so wound up in his presence.
ReplyDeleteJust to add to my earlier comment, while I really recognise the part I play in making my husband feel I'm keep a score of failures, his almost pathological defensiveness makes it very difficult to receive any compassion from him if he had any small part to play in whatever issue brought up. He goes so far to prove me wrong or prove his point that the issue at stake is left completely to the sad (whether it's me being triggered or asking him not to snap at the children) and he goes through all sorts of contortions to undermine my point that, like gaslighting, I begin to question my own version of reality. And I really don't know where to go with that when I need to ask things from the relationship (especially post affair). As I said, I am trying to decipher the part we both play and I have a course lined up for us to try to see what we can identify. Following that it will be MC if we can't sort it. I am doing work on myself but if he does not sign up to addressing his still lingering fear of failure, bad reactions to stress, depression, addictive tendencies then how can we move on. Oh it's such a long road, so tiring!
ReplyDeleteFOH
ReplyDeleteOne thing I've learned about while dealing with my husband anxiety and depression is that he had to take care of himself before we could really move on and work on us. We started hiking and going to the gym. We ate different. We spent time alone together without kids and grandkids around. My husband was on numerous medications and is not one anything now. Not only that but this helped me too. As a married couple for 27 years we were never ones to really fight. We always talked everything out even when our emotions were running on high. I know that it will be hard to do. We've been doing this for 2 years. And Saturday marks 2 years since he tried to commit suicide over the pain he caused all of us. There is a saying that I read somewhere that said " you can't help someone else until you help yourself first". I hope you things get better for you.
Thanks so much for commenting and you are so right. Going through this online depression and anxiety programme and looking at my husband's latest slips and defensiveness I can see that some of the depression and self-loathing that created the affair still definitely persists. For both of us, unless we repair ourselves first we can go nowhere together. The two year anniversary you face is a chilling one. I hope you can feel that you've come a long way and can be proud of yourselves.
DeleteElle--This article is THE single best advice. I wish I'd have had this resource early in discovery days.
ReplyDeleteWe get so anxious about reconciliation that we forgo some of this common sense steps to take and that is a big mistake. I would be a huge mistake to ignore it unless we want to revisit the nightmare of betrayal. It is imperative to follow this advice. Cannot stress it enough.
Very very good article Elle.
Hello all,
ReplyDeleteBased on some of the things I've been able to glean from this site, and primarily from Elle and her wide open, transparent sharing of her journey, I have contacted an EMDR therapist. The affair has dredged up old trauma, that was largely dealt with (I think), and I'm finding it really hard to even get to the "acceptance" stage. I'm holding on to a lot of anger, and I'm afraid to let it go or to let him "off the hook", so to speak. So recovery has stagnated. I would also like him to resume some therapy on his own, but he's on a kick now of "there's nothing wrong with either of us, we just weren't understanding each other. Well, one of us was incapable of understanding, that much is apparent.
Anyway, wish me luck! I let you know how it goes once I've gotten started.
❤️ To all of you, my courageous sisters
Good luck Periwinkle! Good for you! I'm reading in your post that your h just wants you to "move on" based on the "there's nothing wrong with us" garbage. That sounds like Grade A rug sweeping to me. No wonder you aren't feeling acceptance. I mean really, he wants to pretend like everything is just fine and you are supposed to just accept it and move on. That doesn't sound very validating of your pain and experience. Sounds like maybe your h needs to do some therapy of his own to learn about why he was able to do this. I bet when he gets to the point where he can acknowledge "this shitty thing from my past and the gaping hole in my self esteem that it caused was why I was able to do something so hurtful" and you hear that from him, then acceptance from you might be a bit more natural and easy. Don't force it or expect yourself to be anywhere in the healing process other than where you are. You are "stuck" because you've got unfinished business. So proud of you for taking steps to dig in to what that unfinished business is.
DeleteThank you, Still Standing, what a beacon you are! Like my own personal cheerleader! I do feel like he's just not at all taking in how deeply this wound cuts. He seems to think we're in a way different phase of recovery than I'm actually in. And I'll be honest, I'm not sure anymore that there's a path to happy ending. But I'm just going to ignore "our" healing for now, and focus on my own healing. Thank you for your amazing support ❤️
DeleteYou know what I don't understand is how the OW can have any self respect for herself. How she wants peace in her life after nearly destroying someone else's life with lies, manipulations, and whatever else that happened between her and our husbands. My respect for myself comes with a high price. If I have triggers and contact her, I've lost my because myself respect because I lashed out at her. If one of our husbands hid something, or anything else that was mentioned earlier, they have lost self respect. And yes our husbands have already lost so much self respect by what they have done to us. At least my husband did. He does everything right to make sure I'm ok. But this woman seems to think that she can play me with lies and when I ask for proof she can't provide it. I know that I shouldn't have contact with her but sometimes it's just therapeutic in talking to her to know that, WOW, she really is crazy. I also know now that I have to deal with my triggers a little better. I had stopped walking and painting and I see that I really need that again. These triggers don't come very often but when they do I seem to lose control. It's not easy to admit losing control. For the most part after 2 years I feel good about my marriage and how things are going between us. Thanks for listening to me rant.
ReplyDeleteAnon 9/8, you are right the OW are crazy and if they had self respect, they likely wouldn't be sleeping with other people's husbands. I highly encourage you to invest in yourself with things like walking and painting. Do you have a close friend or two that you could spend more time with? Some volunteering you've always wanted to do? Now is the time to rebuild a relationship with yourself. The more we get OK with ourselves and invest in things that feed us, the less we need our partners to make us OK (never a good dynamic). I'm glad things are going well for you and you feel good about where you two are. May I gently suggest that you cut the OW from your life? No contact might be a good idea for both you and your h. Any time or energy you invest in talking with her is energy lost to you and your relationship. I imagine there's a certain degree of mastery and control (and a little bit of eff you thrown in) that those conversations give you and that can be satisfying. But I guess my question is, in what way does keeping the OW tied to you serve you and your future? She doesn't deserve your energy. Just something to think about. Hugs, SS1
DeleteThank you for the nice words SS1. Your right the power over her felt good. I had control over her because I had the truth supporting me and proof of what she had done. I also realize after everything she has done to breakup my marriage is that of an obsessed desperate woman. My husband and I have worked very hard to get to where we are today. My triggers stem from knowing exactly what this woman and her friends had done to me, my husband, and my family. This trigger was of the man that killed his wife after taking cough syrup because he couldn't sleep while he was on antidepressants. It hit a nerve big time. I guess too, the anger comes from the outcome of this short lived (it was only days long) affair where both my husband and my 14 year old daughter tried to end their lives. Both in pain from this situation. But my daughter still has overwhelming issues with this and needs to be put back on medication. This woman know's that I know exactly what she has done and tries to lie to me about the extent in which she and her friends tried to destroy our marriage. My husband has had no contact with her since he threatened her with a restraining order 2 years ago. He concentrates on helping me and us. Her answer to that was to tell everyone that he raped her and that she threatened him with a restraining order so that she could go back to the guy she left to go after my husband. I was investing time into myself but that got put on the backburner when my granddaughter came to spend time with us this summer. I got off my routine and haven't been able to get it back. And now I'm finding it hard to get started again. As far as close friends go. We have moved across the country to get away from this group of people we worked with and I'm finding it hard to trust other women for the most part. The women where I work that I talk to have all been through what we have all gone through, except not to the extent of what happened in our crazy situation. I think it would have been easier to deal with knowing that it was just his stupid decision that did this to me. Not the drugged up plan that these women had concocted. I have discovered over this past weekend that the OW and her friends knew he was sick due to his medication and instead of getting him help they used it as a way to control the situation so that they could break us up. That way to this woman could get pregnant and in her delusional mind he would want to be with her instead of us. Reading that gave me chills. Knowing what I do now too, in how unstable she is I don't want anymore contact with her. I changed my number and will be changing my email address too. She tried to tell me she was out here over Labor Day weekend. I asked for proof and she couldn't provide it. She told me she knew where we lived and that I didn't even know she was here. I knew she was lying and later in another email she told me that she only wanted me to believe that she was here. You're right she serves no purpose in our future nor deserves my energy. My oldest daughter and my husband have told me to contact them when I feel like this again so we can get her out of our lives for good.
DeleteI've never understood why a betrayed spouse would be OK with a cheating spouse continuing to work with their affair partner. In the five plus years I've been around infidelity boards it never works out for the BS. The cheater either relapses the affair or eventually resents the continued and necessary vigilance by the BS. Worse, it ultimately impedes healing as the betrayed spouse has to live with the fear. We would laugh if a bank robber thought being sorry was enough to not be sent to jail and we'd laugh even harder if they wanted to continue to work in the bank they robbed. But somehow a cheater thinks they are entitled to give up NOTHING. Keep their job, their income, etc etc.
ReplyDeleteMy husband's affair cost us (in financial terms) over 100k. We will feel that impact for life. But my list of conditions to stay in the marriage look like Elle's list above. No contact. Period. I didn't care what that meant or what that cost or what he had to sacrifice. He should have thought about that before he got involved with the whore at the office. Cheaters want to be blind to the concept of collateral damage. They want to skate out of the affair with all the fun and none of the consequences. I refused to simply sweep that under the rug and take the hit for it while his life remain same old, same old.
Wowee, it took me forever to learn this lesson. I am by nature a person who believes in fairness and justice. And I wanted to be fair to him, to not judge him or control him. The problem was that I didn't recognize that we weren't playing the same game. He was all about himself and his needs and was unable to extend the compassion to me that I was extending to him. It took me a long time to believe that he was just stuck in self protection and self interest and wasn't interested in fairness and justice. When I stood up for myself, he would roll out the countermoves and the self pity and the counterblame. With the help of my therapist, I began to accept the truth of his mentality and that I ultimately didn't give myself enough of the benefit of the doubt. I finally realized that I had to stop thinking that there was something wrong with me as a person. I may have the capacity to make mistakes, but I fundamentally believed that I was deeply damaged and it stopped me from really valuing myself and standing up for myself with conviction. Once I began to accept that I was no more a difficult or faulty person than anyone else, I could give myself and demand the respect that I deserved and was willing to walk away from someone I loved but who did not respect and value me. It was only then that I could stand up to the countermoves and it was only then, to my shock, that he began to do the real work to change.
ReplyDeleteOne thing to consider about the vigilance and rules. I think it is important to convey to your partner that you are not controlling him and that he is responsible for controlling himself otherwise, if your marriage is anything like mine, your partner is not someone who is accountable to others, takes responsibility for his own behavior and laid his own boundaries. Rather, it is easy for him to externalize responsibility, instead of recognizing when he is crossing a line himself. One thing I told my husband was that I was not going to constantly police him, but I was going to be vigilant and I had a right to ask questions when I felt they were necessary. I did have the passwords, I did make him close his facebook account, but I did not allow myself to become his cop/mommy. That was a burden I was going to shed as I have carried it too long and he just used it as an excuse to blame me for being bossy or controlling. I insisted that he become his own cop, because that was what grown ups are supposed to do. His behavior throughout our relationship and in the affair put me in the position of having to babysit (and him sneaking around me) and I wasn't going to do that anymore. I had my own life to live. However, if he thinks he can keep secrets, the fact that things came out anyway (either from me asking a few questions when things don't add up, or when someone else reveals it) proved him wrong. And I pointed out that hiding and sneaking is an act of cowardace, self degradation, and personal debasement. Ultimately, showing that he is trustworthy is not just giving you the passwords and not going to places without you, but willingly and openly volunteering to be transparent, to go to support groups and therapy, talking about the affair, asking you questions, and sharing his thoughts as long as you need to. Its about developing into a vulnerable but unselfish human being with a moral compass.
ReplyDeleteExercixsegrace, good for you, it sounds like you are very clear about what you will and will not tolerate. Some of us find that so hard after d-day because we've been doing the co-dependent dance with our partners for so long, that we stop knowing what is acceptable or being aware of what is a boundary violation. And yes, it's a rare situation where the affair can be converted into a platonic and safe friendship (not to mention, of you are really trying to fix things as a wayward spouse, why are you keeping this source of pain for your partner?) But they are still thinking of themselves and not about what is an important investment in the relationship. For the betrayeds, many of us have been putting our own needs dead last for so long, that it is really scary and uncomfortable to stick up for ourselves. The good news is that we get better with practice. Keep sticking to your guns!
ReplyDeleteGood grief, bite the bullet and get a divorce. I mean, read what you're all posting. Is your self-esteem so low that you think the relationship you're in is the best you can do? Get divorced, and in a couple of years you'll be fine.
ReplyDeleteYou.don't.get.it Sorry but you've pissed me off. In the wake of a betrayal, pretty much if you decide to stay OR decide to leave, you are dealing with the same result. It literally has nothing to do with this person is the best you can do. It's digging deep and looking inward to the two of you to see how to make sense of what happened. In the end, divorce may be the answer, but it's definitely not always a solution. And no, in a couple years you won't be fine if you don't get to the root of the issue. This blog is for the compassionate to understand both sides of the fence not to just jump on one side and judge. This blog is for women and men for that matter to understand what others are going through so they can find common ground and to not feel alone in this journey. This may not be the blog for you.
DeletePlumbkrazy1971
DeleteI'm sorry I don't know your story or your history with betrayal, but on this blog, we are all allowed to walk down the path to our own decision regardless of whether we choose to stay and fight to rebuild our relationship with our h, or decide that he isn't worth the time and effort based on how each one of us arrives to the blog. It sometimes takes some of us years to let go and try to move forward alone, just as it sometimes takes years to rebuild all that was damaged by the betraying spouse. These decisions are very personal and we try to truly understand what the others are feeling while also giving our own advice based on what we are doing to get through to the best decision for our own life. I'm sorry you think it's all cut and dried to just divorce, but I really feel that for myself and my h, that truly would have been the easier route to end the pain short term but for us, we had some really good years, decades of good before he fell apart...so I hope you don't mind if I send you a hug for your pain and yet I hope you understand that my decision is just that my decision. Good luck on your own journey!
Thanks ladies for stepping up and waving the BWC flag. And to you, Plumbkrazy, fair enough. There are absolutely people who just don't see any other option than to respond to infidelity by serving divorce papers. And for some, that's likely the wisest path. But to the women who gravitate to this site, that's either a choice they're not ready to make or a choice they don't want. It's not the choice I made and I can assure that I'm absolutely "fine". I suspect a few of us might have felt the same way you do before it happened to us.
DeleteI'm not sure why you found yourself here or what your motivation was to chastise women for responding to betrayal differently than you would recommend but if you stick around, you'll see that the women on this site bring enormous compassion and kindness and support to each other. Regardless of what we choose to do about our spouse's infidelity, we prop each other up. It's a huge part of why this site is different than so many others out there – the openness to respond in the way that's best for each of us and the recognition that none of us knows what's right for anyone else.
Listen Plumb, I can maybe give your post 2cents worth of credit. I think it is really important that we ask ourselves if we are going to settle for the status quo and really take a good long look at the relationship and the person we are married to. Maybe the affair will reveal that your partner was a self absorbed ass all along and you are better off with out him. But where you are wrong is that divorce will set you free and is the only answer. There are many, many couples who do stay together and succeed and thrive and get stronger and better. Sometimes the affair is the kick in the pants that one or two people need to get their act together. But it doesn't happen all of a sudden. There are fits and starts, highs and lows. Figuring out whether divorce is right for you is an important journey that we all take at our own pace.
DeleteGreat comment. From my experience personally with friends who have divorced and from what I have seen on other blogs I am sorry but I do not see the divorced as any happier than those who stay in marriage where betrayal has happened. Let alone after 2 years.
DeleteI'm not judging anyone who divorces. Sometimes you do just have to call it a day and make that choice. Good luck with that. But to claim it's THE answer, not so much. I know lots of miserable divorced people.
Plumb crazy good name and apropos too. Jeez what makes you the expert here??? Is that what you did and if you are so happy why the heck are you stalking blogs like this?? I suggest you take your own good advice and move on. You'll be happier
ReplyDeleteWhat she said! ;)
DeletePlumb krazy I've been a member of this site for 4 years, I'm still rebuilding my marriage 4 years later because I choose too, I WOULD NOT judge anyone for separating or divorce that takes a huge amount of courage too but I take offence to women who come here and try to spoil what we have, what Elle has set up for us a life line to many. Just to add the majority of women who come here do so with compassion. I'd love to know your story if you feel happy to share here..
ReplyDeleteSam xxx
It's too bad I never got the respect I demanded after D-day 2. I didn't draw the boundaries soon enough and allowed him too much space. I was low maintenance and allowed his crumbs. Trust was severely broken but he decided he wasn't to be trusted again and agreed to divorce. I felt so worthless, like I wasn't even worth fighting for, worth being respected. I am loveable, but totally unloved. It was heartbreaking but I learned to pick myself back up and continued on with my life without him. In the end, it was me realizing that we have two different value sets.
ReplyDelete