This was perfect for me today. I have been experiencing a LOT of anxiety lately and I have no idea why. Yes, I want to control the future too. I want to be normal again. Things have been going really well between us. I hadn't snooped for a long time and then I did. Yep. I had told h I wasn't going to snoop anymore, but I did. And I discovered Sunday that the OW had contacted my h two weeks prior. My heart just dropped. It was only one lousy call. When h came home and discovered I had, he was angry. Things were not pleasant to say the least. He said he didn't tell me because he thought I'd get mad. He said it was nothing to him (which is why he didn't think to delete it) and that he told her he couldn't talk to her. I told him that if he had been honest and told me the day it happened, it would have gone a long way in the trust issues that I'm having. Needless to say, the next couple of days were stressful. Other than not telling me she contacted him, things have been going really well. He's been doing all the right things, saying the right things, and we've been happy. We've been doing things together, planning some trips for later in the year, and spruced up the house for our fresh start. However, I've decided that I can't tame the demons in my head by myself, need help with trusting again, and am seeking IC. My consultation is on Monday.
This is one thing we have discussed a lot. It is hard to explain to my husband how much it would hurt if there was contact or something went on and I did not know. I have brought up this exact scenario since he would go 6-12 months with zero contact during the affairs. I have said to him at least a dozen times he must tell me anything at all. And we are to discuss together how he will reply if at all. I tell him each time that any contact is no good but what would be the worst at this point would be him keeping it from me. After having dday 2 I explained it hurts even worse. It was hard for him to understand at first but I had to explain for me even to stay with him and consider trusting him again took everything I had. And to be lied to in any way shape or form is an issue. And I brought up the idea that as time goes by maybe he would say why say anything why rock the boat but I told him it was crucial he tells me at the time. For me I can take the truth but deception or more and it will not be a positive reaction. thanks for sharing as this is something we have talked a lot about.
Feeling Lost, the problem isn't with you being able to trust again if he is still hiding things from you. Not saying anything because you might get mad, not an excuse. Any reason, not wanting to hurt you, not thinking it was relevant, it didn't mean anything none of these are excuses. If he still doesn't come clean and share completely openly with you, there is still a problem and it is with him. I say this having had my husband do all the right things for reconciliation, want the best for me, tell me how he understood my shock and pain and STILL went for a month messaging with the OW and then phoning her. He felt he was working through things (he was telling her nothing could happen), but it was alone, with no safeguards. He could have slipped right back into the affair. He does not know when he would have told me. And the damage going forward of his silent deception has been absolutely massive. Him telling you everything MUST be a condition of you going forward. Him going to IC to find out why he's still hiding things should be a priority. Even when they are commmitted to reconciliation, they need safeguards and help, transparency is part of that. Best wishes and hope you can work through this. Don't blame yourself and demand that he earns back your trust by being consistently TRUSTWORTHY.
Foh you are completely right in what you say, unfortunately men can be easily coerced right back to the affair, one text could turn into two and another the rest is history..... My husband said he can't understand why he got 'reeled in again' wtf your not a fish... Get s bloody backbone!!!!... Just at my counselling appt catch you ladies later... These men need to learn how to tell the truth again, abit like I teach my 3 yr old ... Nightmare xxx
Feeling Lost, there is a lot of information out there about the difference between secrecy and privacy in relationships. Just google those terms. My husband and I just had this conversation a few days ago, something I might not have even brought up before D-day which was a year on June 14th. He bought an instrument off ebay and did not tell me about it when he saw the post online, ask me what I thought about him purchasing it or seek any feedback at all. He just bought a similar instrument last month for a significant sum of money and I was under the impression he was not going to purchase another one for any price. Anyway, he brought it out the evening it came and showed it to me. I was stunned because I thought we had an agreement that neither of us would spend money without asking the other unless it was a gift for each other. He became defensive immediately and after an unsatisfactory conversation I got quiet. Yesterday, when things were calm, I brought it up again and explained to him that I perceived his actions to be done in secret because he did not want any negative feedback from me about the wisdom of this purchase. I told him that since we have been working on being transparent and honest with each other that I felt like this was a very slippery slope for him and that I would have appreciated a different approach. I said, "Spouse, I know you love that instrument and playing it. I also know a lot about the instrument because I have spent hours with you in music stores looking at them and learning about them. I also know that you deliberately chose to withhold this from me because you did not want me to challenge the purchase. I would have felt much better and felt included if you had called me or sent me a text when that item came up for sale on ebay to tell me that this was a great deal at a good price and that you really wanted to buy it. I would have felt included and been able to share in the excitement about such a bargain." He agreed that he just did not want me to rain on his parade and he did not want to hear "NO". I told him that I felt like he was being secretive again and that I did not like how that felt for me. It is the sharing of sensitive information as soon as possible that creates trust. I do not check his phone or computer as he always went to prostitutes and I just don't have the energy to do the computer stuff. The very act of making the purchase in secret and then springing it on me with all the reasons it was a great purchase after the fact set my trust back again and reminded me that after a year of hard work, he still has holes in his head. I believe he understands what I meant by privacy vs secrecy and I know he is thinking about it too because he wants to be transparent. Old habits die hard and I'm not going to let this kind of behavior slip by me ever again. It might not change his behavior (although I hope it does) but he will always know how I feel about his behavior. Love and Peach, Beach girl
Feeling Lost, Add my voice to the chorus of those who insist that he must tell you EVERYTHING. In order to rebuild trust, you absolutely need to know that he is not keeping secrets from you. Not wanting to tell you because you would "get mad" is about him protecting himself, not protecting you. It's about HIS discomfort with your pain, not about your pain itself. And, I suspect, this desire to avoid uncomfortable feelings is a big part of what led him down the path toward betrayal. It's easier to distract ourselves with someone new than deal with our own uncomfortable feelings. Affairs are about escape. And now you're asking him to be present with you, to be an ally with you as you rebuild a marriage. If he doesn't yet get that, he's got some learning to do.
That's the truth! My mother has no control of her future with macular degeneration and has to have monthly injections to keep her eye sight! She left the doctors office more depressed than ever. Her statement to me was I don't want to be a burden and I told her that the only time she's a burden is when she throws a pity party! That made her smile.
The one thing I tell my kids most is you can only control yourself. You cannot control others. All you can do is make decisions based on what is in your best interest and problem solve and find a solution. It has been helpful to me but really good for my kids to hear.
The anxiety is hard for me. I find myself getting anxious about lots if future or upcoming events. I continually focus on the present and what I can control. Not easy but a work in progress...
As I've said in the Stuck forum, I'm suffering anxiety due to the shock of the affair and due to continuing difficulties with my eldest son,15 (who has Aspergers and has not been able to go to school/do his state exams for 18 months). I find myself able to be strong, friendly etc but that just being with my husband is sometimes a trigger and I become anxious. I know that I'm still hypervigiliant and looking out for things that don't add up or things to be concerned about even though, on the face of it all seems fine. The impact of a second d-Day (in my case 9 months in and for other ladies here, even worse, 2 years on) cannot be underestimated. Just when we thought that they had learned their lesson and were on our side, the rug was pulled from under us again. The reality is it will take a long long period of consistency, thoughtfullness, transparency and evidence of awareness and growth on their part before we can put our faith in them again. It's a catch 22 and difficult for both parties. My h had the affair due to depression and feeling that he wasn't special to me, and his actions have made it difficult for me to come close and tell him what he needs to hear. We have to give it time.
Fragments of Hope I am so sorry. I am also looking for things 18 months after D Day. And my husband suffers from depression too(although he denies it had anything to do with the affair-I think differently) but he did say that he felt he wasn't special to him also. I get so mad at that it's like he is justifying the affair. I have a 15 year old who is having some trouble now too and so I have to keep myself going to help him also. I am giving it time as I do feel better than I did and making an effort to be less dependent on my husband and look to the future for me. Whether he'll be in it too I don't know yet. Peace to you. Librarygirl.
Wishing you all the best too Librarygirl. We need time to sort out our own heads and get over everything but we seem to have to keep helping everyone else. I feel so burned out. I think it's fine to say you don't know if he's in your future yet. Their longstanding issues don't turn around suddenly (That includes my son!) and you need long term evidence that they are committed to do the right thing. Even though the more i read I can see that these things are addictions so could reoccur at times of stress. Depression is definitely connected with affairs, some people take a drink to feel better, others take the fantasy and unconditional (unrealistic) positive feedback/interaction high to get them through. So complicated, I hope you can progress some insights with him.
Absolutely depression is linked to affairs. Think of affairs as self-medicating. They're an injection of dopamine. They offer excitement and novelty. They're intoxicating. They're also...toxic. But that usually isn't discovered until it's too late.
I can honestly say I'm not concerned with controlling the future, but I'm scared about the possibility of throwing away any more of my life. The last 30 years were wasted on a man I didn't know and don't love, and I don't want to find out down the road that I've wasted anymore time.
Denise, You're at a crossroads. And it can feel hard to make a choice, especially later in life when we know we don't have as much time. But it can also be easier in that we know we don't have as much time. Does this guy share your dreams and goals for how you want to live out the rest of your life? Are there things you want to be free to do that he gets in the way of? Or is your life richer with him it? Can you rebuild a relationship that's better than the old one? Might help to talk this over with someone who can completely clear-eyed about it. Someone who knows you and might be able to offer some thoughts of their own. None of our time is "wasted", I don't think, even when things don't turn out how we expected. There's undoubtedly things that he brought to your life that you wouldn't have otherwise had. But now's time to figure out whether he's outlived his usefulness in your life.
Hate to be a party pooper but I don't click on Huffington Post articles because, as a writer, I HATE that they don't pay their contributors. I think it's total exploitation and I have no idea how Arianna Huffington promotes "good sleep" when too many freelance writers and photographers can't sleep because they're financially destitute thanks to business models like HuffPo. So...that's my rant. But I won't stop anyone who wants to click and read the info. And please, Beach Girl, I'm not blaming you for posting it. In fact, I appreciate when we all share resources (just not HuffPo. :) ) Best distinction I heard re. secrecy? If you wouldn't do it/say it with your spouse standing right beside you, you shouldn't be doing it/saying it. It's really that simple.
Interesting that is my husband's measure for himself in what he says and how he behaves. He says it is the easiest way for him to self assess. And he says it is easy he wants to live his life that way and that it has been freeing. A friend was begging him to go to a strip club after dinner and watching the bball game and he said it was the easiest decision ever. It is interesting how he sees everything differently now. I have really sat back and washed him make these changes. We do talk a lot about areas of concerns, triggers and boundaries. Even still before he goes out he brings up his plans and I like that he is intiating it. And he is thinking about it days in advance. It is to the point I do not have to bring up these things. What a process but it is easier seeing him as a major active participant and driving the change.
Elle, thanks for that tidbit about the Huffington Post. I had no idea. The SW who wrote that article has a new book on triggers. Unfortunately, I cry when I start reading it. She also has a class coming up online. I am sure others can search for her name and find her web site. No offense taken. This is a learning experience for me. Love and Peace, Beach Girl
A friend came down to the farm to pick blueberries. She has been married for a year but was the OW for 3 years with the same man to who she married now. As she talked about being the OW she said his wife didn't like to do any of the activities he like to do. They knew each other briefly in a work situation cop/nurse about 20 years ago. Anyway, the way she talked about being the OW my impression was adultery is no big deal. Her attitude was "it happens". She had basketball tickets and so did he. Because the wife didn't want to go, he asked her if she wanted to sit by him? She said yes and you know the ending. What was disconcerting to me was her callous nature about being the OW. It took him 4 years to get a divorce. She never mentioned pain or hurt. No remorse what so ever. She just waited in the wings until he was free. It was like she was void of any feelings for him except she wanted him. I worked with her many years ago in the ED. She is an excellent nurse, caring, empathic and he is her third marriage. It was like I was watching a movie of the OW and her demeanor reminds me of a hit man like you see on the movies. No remorse at all and cold. She says they like to do the same things sporting events, motorcycles but she never mentioned love, kindness or any soft emotions. It was weird. Her attitude was "it happens". I'm not trying to make a point except this was a first for me. I feel weird, void and awakened by how easy it is for her and matter of fact feelings. The wife posted on FB a picture of his truck at her house but it back fired and the wife took it down. So there was much s conversation more back and forth between OW and wife. I could not hear anymore, gave her my berries and she was on her way. I fought down this trigger all day. The trigger finally won out and I let my husband know how this trigger had effected me. He got the brunt of several remarks. The pain is begging to be me. The hurt is beginning to be me. Me. Me. Me stuff it, shove it, shovel it, show it, now throw it up again and again. Maybe I'm a betrayed anorexic who binges and purges on pain and hurt. Eat it then throw it up again. Never brush it out of your teeth and don't rinse your mouth out either. I'm totally nuts tonight.
LLP, You are so NOT nuts. I'm always so stunned at your insight and the incredible depth and breadth of your heart. Lynn, we think everybody thinks like us. We think everybody comes at life with hearts open and wide and that everybody can be trusted. And then we realize, as you did with Blueberry Homewrecker, that some people just skate on the surface of life. Taking this, trying that, but never really examining their choices, never being accountable for how they impact other people. It's such a mindless way of living that it's utterly foreign to me. It frightens me, honestly. But within that fear is something I need to wrestle with. She's likely someone who walks away from problems, rather than deals with them. Which, of course, is her choice. But she probably misses out on a lot of life's deeper riches, like being truly loved by someone who knows the deepest parts of ourselves. Loving ourselves, even though we acknowledge our darkest selves.
"We think everybody thinks like us." That is so true and I had to really come to grips with this. And then I am learning to let go of expecting people to be better than they are. Then figure out the extent to which I can have a relationship with them.
The thing I am realizing is that it is a near impossible task for people to see the hurt, pain or wreckage they cause. Those of us who open our hearts to ourselves, are more likely to be able to do that, but it is not an easy thing and certainly not something that happens suddenly. People, especially OWs and cheaters, who walk through life mindlessly, are especially stuck in this mire of being blind to others and to themselves and do miss out on living a full hearted life.
They walk into a situation knowing they are not the only woman. Making a choice to share.
There's something deeply wrong with them.
They lack many things to include basic self esteem. They are desperate and selfish.
My OW was waiting to be with my H. Of course he was promising that although he insists he never meant it. Was just initially to get the constant attention. Later she started the threats to tell me so he did it to keep me from finding out.
She told me because he finally pushed her away. At least that's his story.
And she was heartless and cold to me. She told me he didn't love me and only wanted her. That he didn't care about our son even. That actually made me laugh.
She said that I was stupid for staying (even tho at the time I had told him he had to move out and I was done) with a cheater when she walked into this knowing he was married.
I informed her time and and again that all he had to do was leave....IF he only wanted her it was that simple.. Yet he never did.
And everything in our life is in my name and financially I don't need him. I flat out said he could have packed up his shit in an afternoon and left.
Still she insisted she was the only one he loved and had a bunch of reason why he hadn't left. She had no clue about the amazing life we had started together yet felt like she was the love of his life.
He insists he liked the attention as he felt like I no longer loved him. And things were bad. We had not even slept in the same bed in months. Not excusing him, just explaining.
We knew we wanted to be together within 20 mins of meeting and were head of heels in love for many years.
We went thru some hard times, fought and lost that connection.
He said she filled the void but all he really wanted was me.
Who knows. It's hard when there were so many lies.
But he says all the time he's releived he's no longer having her threatening to tell me. We eventually got back in the same bad and he is never far from my side. It's at times like it was back in the good days.....expect moments I want to kill him for not just coming to me. I would have gone out of my way to fix things.
If only we could go back..
Sometimes when it slips my mind briefly, I have moments I'm so happy yet I always remember and it ruins it.
Lynn, I know for me I can be in a great place and bam it hits me. I feel like it happens less often but I also feel like there is no warning sometimes. My husband has learned how to deal with it. We have talked a lot and usually there is nothing he can do to fix it. I just need him to listen and understand the impact. And for me it is important he sees it and feels it with me. For someone who is excellent at compartamentalizing he needs to see it all good and bad. These triggers and consequences are due to his poor decisions.
And I would have had a really hard time listening to this other woman. I am less tolerant of people and their behaviors, ethics and morals since being betrayed. Even if it is not affair related none if it is funny, cute or something to get away with. And when it comes to commitments like marriage and having kids and a family I have zero tolerance. I find it interesting that this woman sees it as simple as then husband and wife did not have the same interests. That could all be true but usually there are two sides to every story. She and none of us have no idea what goes on in anyone's life. And it f he was cheating even emotionally with her and who knows if there were others how engaged was he. My husband told himself whatever he needed to in order to lessen his guilt. But now he looks at himself and tells me all the time that I never did one thing to be responsible for his affairs. It was all his fault and his poor decisions. Who knows what the ow think or thought at the time. I think people tell themselves what they need to in order to make themselves feel better. And some just have very different morals and boundaries. It is hard enough to deal with the affairs my husband had but I also struggle with a world where people target others for their own gain even if for just a moment. Also where people are so selfish that they only think of themselves. It is so against the fiber of my being it is hard for me to understand and even see my husband was that way. He is doing everything he can to redefine our marriage and himself.
Anxiety and feelings of being unsafe are high right now. My husband's brother and his wife are going through a divorce. She served him with divorce papers and now it's all passive aggressive posts on Facebook and hearing all about it and she has for some reason reached out to me to bemoan all the ways he has done her wrong, including at least four affairs. (She doesn't know about my husband's affair). She even sent me a screen shot where her "friend" admitted to sleeping with her husband. This is just too much for me. Bringing back all those helpless and hopeless feelings and instead of being understanding and extra reassuring, my husband has just been irritable and disconnected. Like, "How dare my brother be exactly like me and make my wife have to have feelings again that I have to deal with?" Turns out, this weekend we find out that his sister's husband was caught trolling on dating sites. Lies, lies, lies. I feel surrounded by liars and cheats. Isn't there anyone with integrity anymore? Are we women nothing more than a vagina and a uterus when needed? It's so easy to get in that bad place and start making generalizations about how no man will ever love me (every boyfriend and husband has cheated on me) and my husband will never change and... I feel so alone right now because my husband isn't helping me and I have no one to talk to about the affair. 11 months out and still feel like life will never be more than just surviving day by day.
Grace, I can imagine how difficult this would be for you and how much pain it would dredge up. If your husband is up to it, however, it's a chance for him to show that he's NOT like his brother. That he IS man enough to own his mistakes and make amends for them. His behaviour, putting his head in the sand until the crisis blows over, is just evidence that he's learned nothing from the affair - or at least, that he hasn't learned the value of owning up to our feelings and sharing them with the person closest to us. Can you two see a couples counsellor to help you over this rough spot? Seeing the pain of the divorcing couple and the ugliness might be a powerful motivator to help each of you re-commit, assuming he deserves it. And Grace, you're within your rights to NOT listen to her. Is there some reason you're not confiding in her your own situation? If you're not close, perhaps she'd be better to take her pain to another friend who can be more compassionate. In any case, your job isn't to take care of others, it's to respect yourself and your own needs right now.
Hi ladies, I wish I could be more selfish at times, not consider others just go out and not think of the consequences but I can't do it, thought about it and no I can't do it.. I get annoyed with how level headed I am, I never used to be in my 20's as I approach my 40's I've turned into a sensible old goat and I don't always like it..... Just had s screaming match with my h, early days after d day 2 , I'm really not sure we are meant for each other at all .., he's a selfish basterd snd I'm not!!!! Wish he would fuk of at times and leave me the hell alone... But with 2 children that won't happen either... We give our all to these men, I'm financially up shit creek and would be in a mess if I was to leave... But I don't want to stay just for that reason... I'm so mad right now I want to get a hammer to his head or new car or both ..... Sorry for rambling guys I'm in a shit place right now xxx
Sam A, Maybe this is a signal that you need to create a situation (financially and emotionally) where staying feels like a choice, and not a prison term. What could you do to even begin creating that situation? It's hard to rebuild a marriage when you feel like you have no choice but to stay with a selfish bastard. And level-headed isn't such a bad thing. But maybe you need a bit more spontaneity in your life. Maybe you need to reconnect with that fun person who thew caution to the wind a bit more. I'm not suggesting you run away with the pool boy but maybe a night out with some girlfriends. Maybe a new hobby. Who knows?
'Running away with the pool boy' sounds great Elle : )
Your right though Elle, I really have lost that fiery person I used to be, yes I'm a mother of 2 now, a wife but I'm so much more too... I'm gonna give this some thought and see what I come up with..there's so much more to me, more to life than I'm creating...,. Watch this space and thanks Elle this is just what I needed today.. Love and light my dear friend xxx
Sam A, I don't know how old your kids are but it's really tough to hold onto yourself when kids are young, especially if you're a stay-at-home mom. I was so focussed on wiping butts and cooking meals, that I didn't know who I was or what I wanted. I just went along...until my life blew up and I started realizing that I was allowed to have wants and needs that didn't serve other people. The pool boy might be fun until you realize he speaks in emoticons and LOLs. That will get old...fast.
I've had those moments. My thing was hoping he would die. I was like me and my son need an in ground pool and the life insurance would more than cover that.
While I don't wish he would really die, more for my sons sake, those thoughts have been there in anger.
Like we should get some reward for this nightmare they put us through.
Hi LLP and Hopeful - interesting you should bring that up now. I have a friend who was the OW to a married man for four and a half years - she too was married. True to statistics, she used the affair to get out of her marriage and he stayed with his wife and children (of course he was continually telling her that he was leaving his wife for her.). About three years has passed since the end of the affair - she is only now feeling remorse and saying how awful she was to the wife. The wife would text and call her and she would just hang up. My friend, the OW, now says she does not even recognize who she was at that time. She did say something interesting the other night - she said her AP and my h had "no business being in an affair!" Rationalizing, "they still loved their wives and had no business being in an affair." (Whereas she wanted out of her marriage - again, this is apparently often the way out of a bad marriage for many women.). I am not saying she is right - this is her perspective. Lynn, as with you, I met another woman who had an affair (he was not married; she was) and ended up leaving her husband for her AP - because, "as she put it - "her husband was boring." She was so flippant; she isn't someone I want to hang out with. Peace & Light
"Isn't someone I want to hang out with." Oh Melissa, THAT is the crux of it, isn't it? That's just so not me. I turn over everything and examine it from every angle. I LOVE thinking about why we do things. I read everything I can get my hands on that reveals humanity in all its complexity. To some people, I'm undoubtedly hopelessly dull or a buzzkill or "unchill" (my kids' new favorite word). To me, what could be more fascinating? You! YOU are the women I want to hang out with!!!! Who bring such compassion and intelligence and thought to all of us.
It is interesting since my husband's affairs were long but sporadic both around 10 years. So neither if them meant much. He knew as little as possible about these women. The one he only saw three times. She texted him one time after dday and he said stop contact not me, leave me alone and that as it. Zero contact in way over a year. The other one I am less sure of he did "break up" with her but they did keep texting for a month or two he is unsure since it was a year before dday. As he said he did not want to remember these details since they were the worst memories of his life, nothing to celebrate. She found a new guy right away and he heard from her one time when the person that introduced them died. We discussed what he should do and we decided he would not reply and he did not go to the funeral in case either of the ow would be there since this friend who died introduced them both to my husband. And from what he has told me there has been zero contact. They were both single but who knows dating others and he says he has no idea what they wanted. He says there was not discussion of me or our marriage and he has no intention of leaving. In general it was a selfish, immature, escape for him. For them who knows. I have no idea if they cared or not really. I guess at a certain point I let it go. It was not worth wasting my energy on when I am not sure I would get realistic answers from anyone. And the last thing I would do would be to contact the ow since why would I believe them. My husband and I had some honest conversations about what these relationships were like and meant since exact details were sketchy. I am a type a person wanting to know the exact details but over time and our discussions I realized it was not possible. So as I said we had long discussions about his relationships with them and me and our future. It was a lot to work though but it worked for us be we keep moving forward.
Those conversations are tough but a big part of healing is, as they say, "closing the door to the affair partner and opening a window to the spouse." We need to see what the affair looked like before we can decide how to move forward.
Shelley When the guys won't talk this is a big red flag in my opinion. It hurts them, what they have done, and they want to avoid the pain. Well they have to claim that pain, face that pain, deal with the pain and get to the root of that pain. My h did EVERYTHING except deal with the root of his pain. With the help of a therapist I would advise a full disclosure. I know now my h held two thing back and then started up again a year later. Full blown sex addiction. He is now dealing with the origin of that pain. Look under "books" here and take a look at the disclosure link I posted last week. Know that you deserve answers. But ask yourself first what you really WANT to know. Because you want to protect yourself too. I have spent the last two and a half weeks compiling the questions I want answers to and the reasons why. You deserve as much truth as you know what you can deal with. Be gentle and careful with yourself . You cannot continue to be shut out Hugs to you
This is so simple yet so complicated. For me it was simple. I am someone that remembers details of every aspect of my life. My husband lacks this skill even good things from childhood he has no memory. His memories are vague of the best of times. My therapist said I should get whatever answers help me get to the point of moving forward with or without him. He said some people need very little and others want every detail. He did caution against getting stuck or into such great details since many times the betrayed regrets it in the end and ends up more hurt. But he said at some point there has to be a reasonable amount of disclosure.
I demanded to know as much as possible. It focused on the beginning and ending of the affairs. The one thought he still to this day cannot tell me which year it began. He knows it was the fall and between two years but no clue. He can tell me the last time he saw the one but no idea of the exact week or day they stopped texting. The other Ap he only saw three times in 10 years so that was easier and all on trips. What I forcused on was how it started, what led up to it, how did it continue, how did they communicate, how did it end. As he told me he hated it deep down and dreaded every time he heard from them yet he did not stop. He tried to block it out and of course is great at compartamentalizing which helped him get through his day to day life without feeling like a total jerk.
At times I wonder do I know enough, I think at this point if I demand more our marriage will end. I am a more type a person and would love to have a list typed up of when they were together and all their communication. I know that is not possible since this stretches back 10 years. And as my therapist said will this really help you. I guess the only thing is and I have said it to my husband is if a "shoe" drops it would be a major or permanent setback. He swears there is nothing of substance he has not told me. We have moved past all of this and I have really demanded and we continue to discuss where he was in his life that this became an option. For me that is the heart of all of this. These women exist everywhere as I can see now with my eyes wide open. He is very transparent now and tells me everything in order to build our trust and the foundation of our marriage. Things are good but it feels like at times I am on my own.
I'm with you, Steam. It's a process, of course. Someone who has spent a lifetime avoiding uncomfortable feelings likely won't be able to suddenly talk about everything, even with the risk of losing their betrayed wife hanging over their heads. But any who doggedly refuse to talk about what happened, who refuse to be fully accountable, who insist that they need to " move on" even with the spouse desperate to know more, to share her pain, etc. is a HUGE red flag. It shows that while they might not be cheating at the moment, they've learned nothing that will stop them from doing it again.
Hopeful I only bring this up, and I am NOT saying your H is a sex addict. But come to find out three weeks ago mine is. And funny because two things that DID help me were close to 10 years old. I just KNEW in my body soul and gut that 2013 or even the chaos of his 2015 were not his only transgressions. So after 2013 disclosure and the more recent (we are we are separated ) disclosure of the last few weeks. Nothing formal-- he FINALLY gave up the details he would not cop to before and gave me another I did not know. 2 more actually. His pain is freeking DEEP. so is mine. But I know where mind is coming from and he is just exploring his. After reviewing my journals from 2015 it's true he had come SO far. Had changed SO much but it was not enough. It was NOT everything. Like you I remember everything, except I didn't. My journal my own words BLINDSIDED me. I can't believe the things I discovered. (Tiny) and the things I had felt (larger) added to to something too HUGE to be contained in this writing space. Hopefully, Hopeful this time my husband and yours take it seriously enough to get to the root and then learn to TALK. And listen and hear and understand. and not just RESPOND to me. They need to Be PROACTIVE (they sure were with the side whores) not reactive. If you feel uneasy write it down. Later you can decide what's important. Really important. And do not. Do NOT let him off the hook. He can do better even if he' looks like he's doing the best he can. I suggest phone records. Not kidding. They give cold hard dates. Just my two cents. You're worth imore than that, woman.
Thank you for your words. It is a hard process to go thorough. And you are exactly right I need to trust my gut. If I am overprotective then so be it. I have said this before my therapist says it is good if I error on the side of caution at this point and my husband has to deal with it.
As with all of us so much has been uncovered. It was not just two affairs, secret fb account, secret email account, im, pornography... Of course on dday he disclosed what he felt would do the least damage. I got the gloss over about fb. He stopped using it but I wanted to get at the root of these things. And the pornograohy. Of course another secret thing and really no way to know how often he used it for sure. Everything was minimized. And I had to hear his plain vanilla take on porn. Well I understand it for some people but for someone who has done what he has. We had a lot of discussions about it. Too much to detail here. We went through cutting back whatever that is to now not using at all. It is the honor system of course but he swears that he has not used it. And what is interesting is he says sex is totally different now for him. i had two major issues one was he lacks sex drive and everything I have read talks about that being an issue for men as they age. And the second thing is related to affairs, online relationships to me it seems obvious that it is a practice that mimics and could feed into affairs and all of those types of behaviors. I even feel like his affairs were very much like porn for many. His affairs were sporadic and went through cycles even though they lasted 10 years. I could go on and on. I find it challenging since he has a tendency to minimiz everything. I get it as related to of course he wants to do it he hates himself for it. And also due to his profession he has the "professional training and background and what he has seen in his practice". Well I have just said to him we need to deal with these things if you want this second chance to continue. At one point he had the nerve to tell me that watching porn is just want guys do and there is no difference in today's porn compared to magazines back in the 70's. Well that did not go over well. And I have done my research. And I made sure to not pull from religious sources but credible sources. It just drives me crazy coming from his profession, I feel like why am I in the role as the counselor.
As far as records go I have access to everything. All passwords etc, phone.. When dday came he had been done with the one affair for over a year. I could only get 18 months of phone records and text only went three months back. In a way though it is a false sense of security due to the fact that his work phone and computer are all 100% confidential. I will never have access to those and his work email. So no matter how much I check who knows what happens there. He would have to be a sociopath to be doing anything right now based on how he treats me, how much time we spend together and what he says to me. But if there is an off day I bring it up. I have brought up that if someone contacts him he better tell me. If he thinks he can deal with it himself and save me upset that is a huge mistake. Better to be upfront. And he agreed that we will decide as a couple how to respond to any contact.
We are due for some conversations as we have been sailing along. It is a lot of work and worth it. I will not back down and just ride along. I am exhausted but I am persistent.
This was perfect for me today. I have been experiencing a LOT of anxiety lately and I have no idea why. Yes, I want to control the future too. I want to be normal again. Things have been going really well between us. I hadn't snooped for a long time and then I did. Yep. I had told h I wasn't going to snoop anymore, but I did. And I discovered Sunday that the OW had contacted my h two weeks prior. My heart just dropped. It was only one lousy call. When h came home and discovered I had, he was angry. Things were not pleasant to say the least. He said he didn't tell me because he thought I'd get mad. He said it was nothing to him (which is why he didn't think to delete it) and that he told her he couldn't talk to her. I told him that if he had been honest and told me the day it happened, it would have gone a long way in the trust issues that I'm having. Needless to say, the next couple of days were stressful. Other than not telling me she contacted him, things have been going really well. He's been doing all the right things, saying the right things, and we've been happy. We've been doing things together, planning some trips for later in the year, and spruced up the house for our fresh start. However, I've decided that I can't tame the demons in my head by myself, need help with trusting again, and am seeking IC. My consultation is on Monday.
ReplyDeleteThis is one thing we have discussed a lot. It is hard to explain to my husband how much it would hurt if there was contact or something went on and I did not know. I have brought up this exact scenario since he would go 6-12 months with zero contact during the affairs. I have said to him at least a dozen times he must tell me anything at all. And we are to discuss together how he will reply if at all. I tell him each time that any contact is no good but what would be the worst at this point would be him keeping it from me. After having dday 2 I explained it hurts even worse. It was hard for him to understand at first but I had to explain for me even to stay with him and consider trusting him again took everything I had. And to be lied to in any way shape or form is an issue. And I brought up the idea that as time goes by maybe he would say why say anything why rock the boat but I told him it was crucial he tells me at the time. For me I can take the truth but deception or more and it will not be a positive reaction. thanks for sharing as this is something we have talked a lot about.
DeleteFeeling Lost, the problem isn't with you being able to trust again if he is still hiding things from you. Not saying anything because you might get mad, not an excuse. Any reason, not wanting to hurt you, not thinking it was relevant, it didn't mean anything none of these are excuses. If he still doesn't come clean and share completely openly with you, there is still a problem and it is with him. I say this having had my husband do all the right things for reconciliation, want the best for me, tell me how he understood my shock and pain and STILL went for a month messaging with the OW and then phoning her. He felt he was working through things (he was telling her nothing could happen), but it was alone, with no safeguards. He could have slipped right back into the affair. He does not know when he would have told me. And the damage going forward of his silent deception has been absolutely massive. Him telling you everything MUST be a condition of you going forward. Him going to IC to find out why he's still hiding things should be a priority. Even when they are commmitted to reconciliation, they need safeguards and help, transparency is part of that. Best wishes and hope you can work through this. Don't blame yourself and demand that he earns back your trust by being consistently TRUSTWORTHY.
DeleteFoh you are completely right in what you say, unfortunately men can be easily coerced right back to the affair, one text could turn into two and another the rest is history..... My husband said he can't understand why he got 'reeled in again' wtf your not a fish... Get s bloody backbone!!!!... Just at my counselling appt catch you ladies later... These men need to learn how to tell the truth again, abit like I teach my 3 yr old ... Nightmare xxx
DeleteFeeling Lost, there is a lot of information out there about the difference between secrecy and privacy in relationships. Just google those terms. My husband and I just had this conversation a few days ago, something I might not have even brought up before D-day which was a year on June 14th. He bought an instrument off ebay and did not tell me about it when he saw the post online, ask me what I thought about him purchasing it or seek any feedback at all. He just bought a similar instrument last month for a significant sum of money and I was under the impression he was not going to purchase another one for any price. Anyway, he brought it out the evening it came and showed it to me. I was stunned because I thought we had an agreement that neither of us would spend money without asking the other unless it was a gift for each other. He became defensive immediately and after an unsatisfactory conversation I got quiet. Yesterday, when things were calm, I brought it up again and explained to him that I perceived his actions to be done in secret because he did not want any negative feedback from me about the wisdom of this purchase. I told him that since we have been working on being transparent and honest with each other that I felt like this was a very slippery slope for him and that I would have appreciated a different approach. I said, "Spouse, I know you love that instrument and playing it. I also know a lot about the instrument because I have spent hours with you in music stores looking at them and learning about them. I also know that you deliberately chose to withhold this from me because you did not want me to challenge the purchase. I would have felt much better and felt included if you had called me or sent me a text when that item came up for sale on ebay to tell me that this was a great deal at a good price and that you really wanted to buy it. I would have felt included and been able to share in the excitement about such a bargain." He agreed that he just did not want me to rain on his parade and he did not want to hear "NO". I told him that I felt like he was being secretive again and that I did not like how that felt for me. It is the sharing of sensitive information as soon as possible that creates trust. I do not check his phone or computer as he always went to prostitutes and I just don't have the energy to do the computer stuff. The very act of making the purchase in secret and then springing it on me with all the reasons it was a great purchase after the fact set my trust back again and reminded me that after a year of hard work, he still has holes in his head. I believe he understands what I meant by privacy vs secrecy and I know he is thinking about it too because he wants to be transparent. Old habits die hard and I'm not going to let this kind of behavior slip by me ever again. It might not change his behavior (although I hope it does) but he will always know how I feel about his behavior. Love and Peach, Beach girl
DeleteFeeling Lost,
DeleteAdd my voice to the chorus of those who insist that he must tell you EVERYTHING. In order to rebuild trust, you absolutely need to know that he is not keeping secrets from you. Not wanting to tell you because you would "get mad" is about him protecting himself, not protecting you. It's about HIS discomfort with your pain, not about your pain itself. And, I suspect, this desire to avoid uncomfortable feelings is a big part of what led him down the path toward betrayal. It's easier to distract ourselves with someone new than deal with our own uncomfortable feelings. Affairs are about escape. And now you're asking him to be present with you, to be an ally with you as you rebuild a marriage. If he doesn't yet get that, he's got some learning to do.
That's the truth! My mother has no control of her future with macular degeneration and has to have monthly injections to keep her eye sight! She left the doctors office more depressed than ever. Her statement to me was I don't want to be a burden and I told her that the only time she's a burden is when she throws a pity party! That made her smile.
ReplyDelete:)
DeleteSo true!
ReplyDeleteThe one thing I tell my kids most is you can only control yourself. You cannot control others. All you can do is make decisions based on what is in your best interest and problem solve and find a solution. It has been helpful to me but really good for my kids to hear.
The anxiety is hard for me. I find myself getting anxious about lots if future or upcoming events. I continually focus on the present and what I can control. Not easy but a work in progress...
Hopeful 30,
DeleteIt's really really hard!! But it's also the only path toward truly relaxing into life.
As I've said in the Stuck forum, I'm suffering anxiety due to the shock of the affair and due to continuing difficulties with my eldest son,15 (who has Aspergers and has not been able to go to school/do his state exams for 18 months). I find myself able to be strong, friendly etc but that just being with my husband is sometimes a trigger and I become anxious. I know that I'm still hypervigiliant and looking out for things that don't add up or things to be concerned about even though, on the face of it all seems fine. The impact of a second d-Day (in my case 9 months in and for other ladies here, even worse, 2 years on) cannot be underestimated. Just when we thought that they had learned their lesson and were on our side, the rug was pulled from under us again. The reality is it will take a long long period of consistency, thoughtfullness, transparency and evidence of awareness and growth on their part before we can put our faith in them again. It's a catch 22 and difficult for both parties. My h had the affair due to depression and feeling that he wasn't special to me, and his actions have made it difficult for me to come close and tell him what he needs to hear. We have to give it time.
ReplyDeleteFragments of Hope I am so sorry. I am also looking for things 18 months after D Day. And my husband suffers from depression too(although he denies it had anything to do with the affair-I think differently) but he did say that he felt he wasn't special to him also. I get so mad at that it's like he is justifying the affair. I have a 15 year old who is having some trouble now too and so I have to keep myself going to help him also. I am giving it time as I do feel better than I did and making an effort to be less dependent on my husband and look to the future for me. Whether he'll be in it too I don't know yet. Peace to you. Librarygirl.
DeleteWishing you all the best too Librarygirl. We need time to sort out our own heads and get over everything but we seem to have to keep helping everyone else. I feel so burned out. I think it's fine to say you don't know if he's in your future yet. Their longstanding issues don't turn around suddenly (That includes my son!) and you need long term evidence that they are committed to do the right thing. Even though the more i read I can see that these things are addictions so could reoccur at times of stress. Depression is definitely connected with affairs, some people take a drink to feel better, others take the fantasy and unconditional (unrealistic) positive feedback/interaction high to get them through. So complicated, I hope you can progress some insights with him.
DeleteAbsolutely depression is linked to affairs. Think of affairs as self-medicating. They're an injection of dopamine. They offer excitement and novelty. They're intoxicating.
DeleteThey're also...toxic. But that usually isn't discovered until it's too late.
I can honestly say I'm not concerned with controlling the future, but I'm scared about the possibility of throwing away any more of my life. The last 30 years were wasted on a man I didn't know and don't love, and I don't want to find out down the road that I've wasted anymore time.
ReplyDeleteDenise,
DeleteYou're at a crossroads. And it can feel hard to make a choice, especially later in life when we know we don't have as much time. But it can also be easier in that we know we don't have as much time. Does this guy share your dreams and goals for how you want to live out the rest of your life? Are there things you want to be free to do that he gets in the way of? Or is your life richer with him it? Can you rebuild a relationship that's better than the old one? Might help to talk this over with someone who can completely clear-eyed about it. Someone who knows you and might be able to offer some thoughts of their own. None of our time is "wasted", I don't think, even when things don't turn out how we expected. There's undoubtedly things that he brought to your life that you wouldn't have otherwise had. But now's time to figure out whether he's outlived his usefulness in your life.
Here is the article I referenced on "Secrecy vs Privacy" Hope this helps someone. Peace and Love, Beach Girl
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/vicki-tidwell-palmer-lcsw/is-it-secret-or-private_b_10449700.html
Hate to be a party pooper but I don't click on Huffington Post articles because, as a writer, I HATE that they don't pay their contributors. I think it's total exploitation and I have no idea how Arianna Huffington promotes "good sleep" when too many freelance writers and photographers can't sleep because they're financially destitute thanks to business models like HuffPo.
DeleteSo...that's my rant. But I won't stop anyone who wants to click and read the info. And please, Beach Girl, I'm not blaming you for posting it. In fact, I appreciate when we all share resources (just not HuffPo. :) )
Best distinction I heard re. secrecy? If you wouldn't do it/say it with your spouse standing right beside you, you shouldn't be doing it/saying it. It's really that simple.
Interesting that is my husband's measure for himself in what he says and how he behaves. He says it is the easiest way for him to self assess. And he says it is easy he wants to live his life that way and that it has been freeing. A friend was begging him to go to a strip club after dinner and watching the bball game and he said it was the easiest decision ever. It is interesting how he sees everything differently now. I have really sat back and washed him make these changes. We do talk a lot about areas of concerns, triggers and boundaries. Even still before he goes out he brings up his plans and I like that he is intiating it. And he is thinking about it days in advance. It is to the point I do not have to bring up these things. What a process but it is easier seeing him as a major active participant and driving the change.
DeleteElle, thanks for that tidbit about the Huffington Post. I had no idea. The SW who wrote that article has a new book on triggers. Unfortunately, I cry when I start reading it. She also has a class coming up online. I am sure others can search for her name and find her web site. No offense taken. This is a learning experience for me. Love and Peace, Beach Girl
DeleteNo worries, Beach Girl. Thanks for understanding. Who is the writer? Happy to link to her Web page if you think it's good information.
DeleteA friend came down to the farm to pick blueberries. She has been married for a year but was the OW for 3 years with the same man to who she married now. As she talked about being the OW she said his wife didn't like to do any of the activities he like to do. They knew each other briefly in a work situation cop/nurse about 20 years ago. Anyway, the way she talked about being the OW my impression was adultery is no big deal. Her attitude was "it happens". She had basketball tickets and so did he. Because the wife didn't want to go, he asked her if she wanted to sit by him? She said yes and you know the ending. What was disconcerting to me was her callous nature about being the OW. It took him 4 years to get a divorce. She never mentioned pain or hurt. No remorse what so ever. She just waited in the wings until he was free. It was like she was void of any feelings for him except she wanted him. I worked with her many years ago in the ED. She is an excellent nurse, caring, empathic and he is her third marriage. It was like I was watching a movie of the OW and her demeanor reminds me of a hit man like you see on the movies. No remorse at all and cold. She says they like to do the same things sporting events, motorcycles but she never mentioned love, kindness or any soft emotions. It was weird. Her attitude was "it happens". I'm not trying to make a point except this was a first for me. I feel weird, void and awakened by how easy it is for her and matter of fact feelings. The wife posted on FB a picture of his truck at her house but it back fired and the wife took it down. So there was much s conversation more back and forth between OW and wife. I could not hear anymore, gave her my berries and she was on her way. I fought down this trigger all day. The trigger finally won out and I let my husband know how this trigger had effected me. He got the brunt of several remarks. The pain is begging to be me. The hurt is beginning to be me. Me. Me. Me stuff it, shove it, shovel it, show it, now throw it up again and again. Maybe I'm a betrayed anorexic who binges and purges on pain and hurt. Eat it then throw it up again. Never brush it out of your teeth and don't rinse your mouth out either. I'm totally nuts tonight.
ReplyDeleteLLP,
DeleteYou are so NOT nuts. I'm always so stunned at your insight and the incredible depth and breadth of your heart. Lynn, we think everybody thinks like us. We think everybody comes at life with hearts open and wide and that everybody can be trusted. And then we realize, as you did with Blueberry Homewrecker, that some people just skate on the surface of life. Taking this, trying that, but never really examining their choices, never being accountable for how they impact other people. It's such a mindless way of living that it's utterly foreign to me. It frightens me, honestly. But within that fear is something I need to wrestle with.
She's likely someone who walks away from problems, rather than deals with them. Which, of course, is her choice. But she probably misses out on a lot of life's deeper riches, like being truly loved by someone who knows the deepest parts of ourselves. Loving ourselves, even though we acknowledge our darkest selves.
"We think everybody thinks like us."
DeleteThat is so true and I had to really come to grips with this. And then I am learning to let go of expecting people to be better than they are. Then figure out the extent to which I can have a relationship with them.
The thing I am realizing is that it is a near impossible task for people to see the hurt, pain or wreckage they cause. Those of us who open our hearts to ourselves, are more likely to be able to do that, but it is not an easy thing and certainly not something that happens suddenly. People, especially OWs and cheaters, who walk through life mindlessly, are especially stuck in this mire of being blind to others and to themselves and do miss out on living a full hearted life.
I came to a realization about the OWs.
DeleteThey walk into a situation knowing they are not the only woman. Making a choice to share.
There's something deeply wrong with them.
They lack many things to include basic self esteem. They are desperate and selfish.
My OW was waiting to be with my H. Of course he was promising that although he insists he never meant it. Was just initially to get the constant attention. Later she started the threats to tell me so he did it to keep me from finding out.
She told me because he finally pushed her away. At least that's his story.
And she was heartless and cold to me. She told me he didn't love me and only wanted her. That he didn't care about our son even. That actually made me laugh.
She said that I was stupid for staying (even tho at the time I had told him he had to move out and I was done) with a cheater when she walked into this knowing he was married.
I informed her time and and again that all he had to do was leave....IF he only wanted her it was that simple.. Yet he never did.
And everything in our life is in my name and financially I don't need him. I flat out said he could have packed up his shit in an afternoon and left.
Still she insisted she was the only one he loved and had a bunch of reason why he hadn't left. She had no clue about the amazing life we had started together yet felt like she was the love of his life.
He insists he liked the attention as he felt like I no longer loved him. And things were bad. We had not even slept in the same bed in months. Not excusing him, just explaining.
We knew we wanted to be together within 20 mins of meeting and were head of heels in love for many years.
We went thru some hard times, fought and lost that connection.
He said she filled the void but all he really wanted was me.
Who knows. It's hard when there were so many lies.
But he says all the time he's releived he's no longer having her threatening to tell me. We eventually got back in the same bad and he is never far from my side. It's at times like it was back in the good days.....expect moments I want to kill him for not just coming to me. I would have gone out of my way to fix things.
If only we could go back..
Sometimes when it slips my mind briefly, I have moments I'm so happy yet I always remember and it ruins it.
It's such a process.
Reading others stories helps so much.
.
You all have a good night!
Shelley ... your story is exactly mine ... some of my husbands explanations to a tee! I get it ... 4mo out still sooooo raw hang in there.
DeleteLynn, I know for me I can be in a great place and bam it hits me. I feel like it happens less often but I also feel like there is no warning sometimes. My husband has learned how to deal with it. We have talked a lot and usually there is nothing he can do to fix it. I just need him to listen and understand the impact. And for me it is important he sees it and feels it with me. For someone who is excellent at compartamentalizing he needs to see it all good and bad. These triggers and consequences are due to his poor decisions.
ReplyDeleteAnd I would have had a really hard time listening to this other woman. I am less tolerant of people and their behaviors, ethics and morals since being betrayed. Even if it is not affair related none if it is funny, cute or something to get away with. And when it comes to commitments like marriage and having kids and a family I have zero tolerance. I find it interesting that this woman sees it as simple as then husband and wife did not have the same interests. That could all be true but usually there are two sides to every story. She and none of us have no idea what goes on in anyone's life. And it f he was cheating even emotionally with her and who knows if there were others how engaged was he. My husband told himself whatever he needed to in order to lessen his guilt. But now he looks at himself and tells me all the time that I never did one thing to be responsible for his affairs. It was all his fault and his poor decisions. Who knows what the ow think or thought at the time. I think people tell themselves what they need to in order to make themselves feel better. And some just have very different morals and boundaries. It is hard enough to deal with the affairs my husband had but I also struggle with a world where people target others for their own gain even if for just a moment. Also where people are so selfish that they only think of themselves. It is so against the fiber of my being it is hard for me to understand and even see my husband was that way. He is doing everything he can to redefine our marriage and himself.
Anxiety and feelings of being unsafe are high right now. My husband's brother and his wife are going through a divorce. She served him with divorce papers and now it's all passive aggressive posts on Facebook and hearing all about it and she has for some reason reached out to me to bemoan all the ways he has done her wrong, including at least four affairs. (She doesn't know about my husband's affair). She even sent me a screen shot where her "friend" admitted to sleeping with her husband. This is just too much for me. Bringing back all those helpless and hopeless feelings and instead of being understanding and extra reassuring, my husband has just been irritable and disconnected. Like, "How dare my brother be exactly like me and make my wife have to have feelings again that I have to deal with?" Turns out, this weekend we find out that his sister's husband was caught trolling on dating sites. Lies, lies, lies. I feel surrounded by liars and cheats. Isn't there anyone with integrity anymore? Are we women nothing more than a vagina and a uterus when needed? It's so easy to get in that bad place and start making generalizations about how no man will ever love me (every boyfriend and husband has cheated on me) and my husband will never change and... I feel so alone right now because my husband isn't helping me and I have no one to talk to about the affair. 11 months out and still feel like life will never be more than just surviving day by day.
ReplyDeleteGrace,
DeleteI can imagine how difficult this would be for you and how much pain it would dredge up. If your husband is up to it, however, it's a chance for him to show that he's NOT like his brother. That he IS man enough to own his mistakes and make amends for them. His behaviour, putting his head in the sand until the crisis blows over, is just evidence that he's learned nothing from the affair - or at least, that he hasn't learned the value of owning up to our feelings and sharing them with the person closest to us.
Can you two see a couples counsellor to help you over this rough spot? Seeing the pain of the divorcing couple and the ugliness might be a powerful motivator to help each of you re-commit, assuming he deserves it. And Grace, you're within your rights to NOT listen to her. Is there some reason you're not confiding in her your own situation? If you're not close, perhaps she'd be better to take her pain to another friend who can be more compassionate. In any case, your job isn't to take care of others, it's to respect yourself and your own needs right now.
Hi ladies, I wish I could be more selfish at times, not consider others just go out and not think of the consequences but I can't do it, thought about it and no I can't do it.. I get annoyed with how level headed I am, I never used to be in my 20's as I approach my 40's I've turned into a sensible old goat and I don't always like it..... Just had s screaming match with my h, early days after d day 2 , I'm really not sure we are meant for each other at all .., he's a selfish basterd snd I'm not!!!! Wish he would fuk of at times and leave me the hell alone... But with 2 children that won't happen either... We give our all to these men, I'm financially up shit creek and would be in a mess if I was to leave... But I don't want to stay just for that reason... I'm so mad right now I want to get a hammer to his head or new car or both ..... Sorry for rambling guys I'm in a shit place right now xxx
ReplyDeleteSam A,
DeleteMaybe this is a signal that you need to create a situation (financially and emotionally) where staying feels like a choice, and not a prison term. What could you do to even begin creating that situation? It's hard to rebuild a marriage when you feel like you have no choice but to stay with a selfish bastard. And level-headed isn't such a bad thing. But maybe you need a bit more spontaneity in your life. Maybe you need to reconnect with that fun person who thew caution to the wind a bit more. I'm not suggesting you run away with the pool boy but maybe a night out with some girlfriends. Maybe a new hobby. Who knows?
'Running away with the pool boy' sounds great Elle : )
DeleteYour right though Elle, I really have lost that fiery person I used to be, yes I'm a mother of 2 now, a wife but I'm so much more too... I'm gonna give this some thought and see what I come up with..there's so much more to me, more to life than I'm creating...,. Watch this space and thanks Elle this is just what I needed today.. Love and light my dear friend xxx
Sam A,
DeleteI don't know how old your kids are but it's really tough to hold onto yourself when kids are young, especially if you're a stay-at-home mom. I was so focussed on wiping butts and cooking meals, that I didn't know who I was or what I wanted. I just went along...until my life blew up and I started realizing that I was allowed to have wants and needs that didn't serve other people. The pool boy might be fun until you realize he speaks in emoticons and LOLs. That will get old...fast.
I've had those moments. My thing was hoping he would die. I was like me and my son need an in ground pool and the life insurance would more than cover that.
DeleteWhile I don't wish he would really die, more for my sons sake, those thoughts have been there in anger.
Like we should get some reward for this nightmare they put us through.
Hi LLP and Hopeful - interesting you should bring that up now. I have a friend who was the OW to a married man for four and a half years - she too was married. True to statistics, she used the affair to get out of her marriage and he stayed with his wife and children (of course he was continually telling her that he was leaving his wife for her.).
ReplyDeleteAbout three years has passed since the end of the affair - she is only now feeling remorse and saying how awful she was to the wife. The wife would text and call her and she would just hang up. My friend, the OW, now says she does not even recognize who she was at that time. She did say something interesting the other night - she said her AP and my h had "no business being in an affair!" Rationalizing, "they still loved their wives and had no business being in an affair." (Whereas she wanted out of her marriage - again, this is apparently often the way out of a bad marriage for many women.). I am not saying she is right - this is her perspective. Lynn, as with you, I met another woman who had an affair (he was not married; she was) and ended up leaving her husband for her AP - because, "as she put it - "her husband was boring." She was so flippant; she isn't someone I want to hang out with. Peace & Light
"Isn't someone I want to hang out with." Oh Melissa, THAT is the crux of it, isn't it? That's just so not me. I turn over everything and examine it from every angle. I LOVE thinking about why we do things. I read everything I can get my hands on that reveals humanity in all its complexity. To some people, I'm undoubtedly hopelessly dull or a buzzkill or "unchill" (my kids' new favorite word). To me, what could be more fascinating? You! YOU are the women I want to hang out with!!!! Who bring such compassion and intelligence and thought to all of us.
DeleteDitto Elle,
DeleteIt is interesting since my husband's affairs were long but sporadic both around 10 years. So neither if them meant much. He knew as little as possible about these women. The one he only saw three times. She texted him one time after dday and he said stop contact not me, leave me alone and that as it. Zero contact in way over a year. The other one I am less sure of he did "break up" with her but they did keep texting for a month or two he is unsure since it was a year before dday. As he said he did not want to remember these details since they were the worst memories of his life, nothing to celebrate. She found a new guy right away and he heard from her one time when the person that introduced them died. We discussed what he should do and we decided he would not reply and he did not go to the funeral in case either of the ow would be there since this friend who died introduced them both to my husband. And from what he has told me there has been zero contact. They were both single but who knows dating others and he says he has no idea what they wanted. He says there was not discussion of me or our marriage and he has no intention of leaving. In general it was a selfish, immature, escape for him. For them who knows. I have no idea if they cared or not really. I guess at a certain point I let it go. It was not worth wasting my energy on when I am not sure I would get realistic answers from anyone. And the last thing I would do would be to contact the ow since why would I believe them. My husband and I had some honest conversations about what these relationships were like and meant since exact details were sketchy. I am a type a person wanting to know the exact details but over time and our discussions I realized it was not possible. So as I said we had long discussions about his relationships with them and me and our future. It was a lot to work though but it worked for us be we keep moving forward.
DeleteThose conversations are tough but a big part of healing is, as they say, "closing the door to the affair partner and opening a window to the spouse." We need to see what the affair looked like before we can decide how to move forward.
DeleteThat's so right! I get mad when he tells me he doesn't want to talk or answer my questions.
DeleteIt's important.
Shelley When the guys won't talk this is a big red flag in my opinion. It hurts them, what they have done, and they want to avoid the pain. Well they have to claim that pain, face that pain, deal with the pain and get to the root of that pain. My h did EVERYTHING except deal with the root of his pain. With the help of a therapist I would advise a full disclosure. I know now my h held two thing back and then started up again a year later. Full blown sex addiction. He is now dealing with the origin of that pain. Look under "books" here and take a look at the disclosure link I posted last week. Know that you deserve answers. But ask yourself first what you really WANT to know. Because you want to protect yourself too. I have spent the last two and a half weeks compiling the questions I want answers to and the reasons why. You deserve as much truth as you know what you can deal with. Be gentle and careful with yourself . You cannot continue to be shut out Hugs to you
DeleteThis is so simple yet so complicated. For me it was simple. I am someone that remembers details of every aspect of my life. My husband lacks this skill even good things from childhood he has no memory. His memories are vague of the best of times. My therapist said I should get whatever answers help me get to the point of moving forward with or without him. He said some people need very little and others want every detail. He did caution against getting stuck or into such great details since many times the betrayed regrets it in the end and ends up more hurt. But he said at some point there has to be a reasonable amount of disclosure.
DeleteI demanded to know as much as possible. It focused on the beginning and ending of the affairs. The one thought he still to this day cannot tell me which year it began. He knows it was the fall and between two years but no clue. He can tell me the last time he saw the one but no idea of the exact week or day they stopped texting. The other Ap he only saw three times in 10 years so that was easier and all on trips. What I forcused on was how it started, what led up to it, how did it continue, how did they communicate, how did it end. As he told me he hated it deep down and dreaded every time he heard from them yet he did not stop. He tried to block it out and of course is great at compartamentalizing which helped him get through his day to day life without feeling like a total jerk.
At times I wonder do I know enough, I think at this point if I demand more our marriage will end. I am a more type a person and would love to have a list typed up of when they were together and all their communication. I know that is not possible since this stretches back 10 years. And as my therapist said will this really help you. I guess the only thing is and I have said it to my husband is if a "shoe" drops it would be a major or permanent setback. He swears there is nothing of substance he has not told me. We have moved past all of this and I have really demanded and we continue to discuss where he was in his life that this became an option. For me that is the heart of all of this. These women exist everywhere as I can see now with my eyes wide open. He is very transparent now and tells me everything in order to build our trust and the foundation of our marriage. Things are good but it feels like at times I am on my own.
I'm with you, Steam. It's a process, of course. Someone who has spent a lifetime avoiding uncomfortable feelings likely won't be able to suddenly talk about everything, even with the risk of losing their betrayed wife hanging over their heads. But any who doggedly refuse to talk about what happened, who refuse to be fully accountable, who insist that they need to " move on" even with the spouse desperate to know more, to share her pain, etc. is a HUGE red flag. It shows that while they might not be cheating at the moment, they've learned nothing that will stop them from doing it again.
DeleteHopeful I only bring this up, and I am NOT saying your H is a sex addict. But come to find out three weeks ago mine is. And funny because two things that DID help me were close to 10 years old. I just KNEW in my body soul and gut that 2013 or even the chaos of his 2015 were not his only transgressions. So after 2013 disclosure and the more recent (we are we are separated ) disclosure of the last few weeks. Nothing formal-- he FINALLY gave up the details he would not cop to before and gave me another I did not know. 2 more actually. His pain is freeking DEEP. so is mine. But I know where mind is coming from and he is just exploring his. After reviewing my journals from 2015 it's true he had come SO far. Had changed SO much but it was not enough. It was NOT everything. Like you I remember everything, except I didn't. My journal my own words BLINDSIDED me. I can't believe the things I discovered. (Tiny) and the things I had felt (larger) added to to something too HUGE to be contained in this writing space.
ReplyDeleteHopefully, Hopeful this time my husband and yours take it seriously enough to get to the root and then learn to TALK. And listen and hear and understand. and not just RESPOND to me. They need to Be PROACTIVE (they sure were with the side whores) not reactive. If you feel uneasy write it down. Later you can decide what's important. Really important. And do not. Do NOT let him off the hook. He can do better even if he' looks like he's doing the best he can. I suggest phone records. Not kidding. They give cold hard dates. Just my two cents. You're worth imore than that, woman.
Steam
ReplyDeleteThank you for your words. It is a hard process to go thorough. And you are exactly right I need to trust my gut. If I am overprotective then so be it. I have said this before my therapist says it is good if I error on the side of caution at this point and my husband has to deal with it.
As with all of us so much has been uncovered. It was not just two affairs, secret fb account, secret email account, im, pornography... Of course on dday he disclosed what he felt would do the least damage. I got the gloss over about fb. He stopped using it but I wanted to get at the root of these things. And the pornograohy. Of course another secret thing and really no way to know how often he used it for sure. Everything was minimized. And I had to hear his plain vanilla take on porn. Well I understand it for some people but for someone who has done what he has. We had a lot of discussions about it. Too much to detail here. We went through cutting back whatever that is to now not using at all. It is the honor system of course but he swears that he has not used it. And what is interesting is he says sex is totally different now for him. i had two major issues one was he lacks sex drive and everything I have read talks about that being an issue for men as they age. And the second thing is related to affairs, online relationships to me it seems obvious that it is a practice that mimics and could feed into affairs and all of those types of behaviors. I even feel like his affairs were very much like porn for many. His affairs were sporadic and went through cycles even though they lasted 10 years. I could go on and on. I find it challenging since he has a tendency to minimiz everything. I get it as related to of course he wants to do it he hates himself for it. And also due to his profession he has the "professional training and background and what he has seen in his practice". Well I have just said to him we need to deal with these things if you want this second chance to continue. At one point he had the nerve to tell me that watching porn is just want guys do and there is no difference in today's porn compared to magazines back in the 70's. Well that did not go over well. And I have done my research. And I made sure to not pull from religious sources but credible sources. It just drives me crazy coming from his profession, I feel like why am I in the role as the counselor.
As far as records go I have access to everything. All passwords etc, phone.. When dday came he had been done with the one affair for over a year. I could only get 18 months of phone records and text only went three months back. In a way though it is a false sense of security due to the fact that his work phone and computer are all 100% confidential. I will never have access to those and his work email. So no matter how much I check who knows what happens there. He would have to be a sociopath to be doing anything right now based on how he treats me, how much time we spend together and what he says to me. But if there is an off day I bring it up. I have brought up that if someone contacts him he better tell me. If he thinks he can deal with it himself and save me upset that is a huge mistake. Better to be upfront. And he agreed that we will decide as a couple how to respond to any contact.
We are due for some conversations as we have been sailing along. It is a lot of work and worth it. I will not back down and just ride along. I am exhausted but I am persistent.