Now, facing the wider view of all the ways my husband has operated over the years, porn, financial deception, affair, inappropriate friendships I can see that it was his mental makeup - nothing to do with me. Although along the way I took responsibility for distance in the marriage, for potentially being hard to face when confessing something etc etc. This time last year after 4 years of my pain and heartache engagement with compromised repair he decided that he wanted/deserved to have a social life and that - even though it was against our agreements and would devastate me he would invite single women to lunch with him. Now his counsellor is pinpointing his emotional and mental makeup that allows him to do what he feels like doing even when he knows its wrong. He knew it was wrong and would hurt me. So did he pause, think about telling me what he was thinking, decide not to do it, go and get help, really consider why he was going to do something to devastate me again. No. He admitted that his response to the KNOWLEDGE that it was wrong and hurtful to the wife he had supposedly recommitted to repair with was to LIE AND HIDE IT. No compassion filtering through, more lies. This habit of a lifetime kicked in yet again. I found a link to a post of Elle's in which she asks "Is he a good man who went bad or an immature man who struggles to find empathy and compassion for others." He has been a gentle and kind person, got up at nights to soothe four babies over the years, worked hard, is affectionate etc but he is also the second type, hugely immature, emotionally disconnected, caricaturing me and finding ways to make me seem like the villain so he could do what he wanted. And capable of such cruelty and selfishness. He's now in counselling but I do not want (as I said after d-day) to be married to a man who lies, or to be married to a man who has a mindset or mode that allows him to operate like a psychopath with no empathy or thought for me, the woman who stood by him and offered up so much understanding and care. With the help of long-term counselling he may end up a different man but right now he is still the same immature selfish person who has not been having a relationship with me over a twenty year marriage but with his own agenda. Yes, the words are true, what other people do is to do with themselves but a marriage is surely about two people working together and bending round each other to support, encourage and help each other grow and to take account of each others wants, wishes and values. If I go ahead I am starting from scratch with this man. I don't even know who he is or if he knows or respects who I am. I feel done with him at this moment I have nothing at all to go on.
It has been such a revelation to me that these are his issues. My husband has made and been able to stick with more major changes. He still has work to do in some areas. What I find though is in times of stress or when he is overwhelmed by things I see glimmers of his old self. I think who he is or we all are for that matter is ingrained along the way especially as kids. Nature vs Nurture. My husband has worked really hard to combat those tendencies. And our issues are minor but if he is stressed with work it is as if that takes priority over all of us and our needs. And yes work is important I understand for various reasons. My issue is he will put off work, choose to golf, watch sporting games with friends, take a day to himself and then his stress affects all of us. He has had this down time doing what he wants but we pay the price. It is not centered around betrayal now but I can see where that was an escape and outlet. I find it mind boggling how he can be so successful and have so many great days and moments but then slips back into this self centered entitled person. It is a major challenge. I am not sure how to deal with it. We have boundaries in place it affects every aspect of our entire families lives. It makes me tired.
So sorry to hear that, Fragments of Hope. Really difficult to know where to draw the line with someone who can be kind and thoughtful... and yet so selfish and immature. I'm sorry I have no advice. Just empathy.
Hi Fragments of Hope What you wrote about your husband, mine is the same...not similar. The procrastination of work due to his need to PLAY and when he is pushed to a corner, he conveniently shifts the blame on others. We are now on the 3rd separation ever since his 2nd affair (or even more) plus discovery of his fetish. My son is confused bcos he saw how much I have been good towards his dad. I stopped having confrontations or arguments with his dad and chose to talk (which is tough for me as I prefer to be left alone to collect myself). I wrote earlier how I chose to continue in the marriage for my son's sake. But, this decision is wavering. I am tired of him not wanting counselling (claims God is his counsellor...yeah right when he keeps on cheating God?). For me I know the love and respect we have for each other is gone. H is simply holding on to this marriage for convenience and social standing. I hope you will ride through this storm with your husband, FOH, if you still love him. As for me, I told God every day, bless H and me with the best decision so both of us find our own inner peace and happiness. I bear H no more hatred, more of being trapped in this relationship. I have come to terms he has a personality deficit: Dr Jekyl Mr Hyde as a product of his upbringing. His dad was a former army officer and now a pastor known for having a successful eldest son (H). So my H was never able to be bad before. Sigh...writing all these down is a reminder to me to let my son grow up on his own terms. My hugs to you FOH. Love Lynn
Lynn- like Elle says... Why are you settling for crumbs? You need to understand your worth. It’s hard, but if he’s not willing to do the work, he doesn’t deserve you at all. He’s banking on you waivering because he knows it’s a very hard struggle that you aren’t ready for. His mind games are doing you no favors and it will become more apparent in your son’s eyes. If you can talk to a therapist and see there are options for you, this storm may seem more manageable. It’s a day by day thing. You need to put yourself as a priority and talk it out with someone so you can see the light. And in the meantime, ask him what God his counselor is suggesting he do to repair his relationship with you? You can continue to co-parent but if his plan is to just be separated and not fix things on his end, this isn’t going to move in a positive direction. Is he willing to dig in and do the work to be better for himself first and foremost so that you and your son can be less confused and in limbo? Get the answers you deserve. Sometimes the hardest talks can propel you in the right direction. It may seem like going backward but it’s going to help. You are worth it! Believe that!!
Fragments, I'm not sure what to say to you. It sounds as though he is a masterful compartmentalizer, able to be loving and warm, but also capable of incredible deception. And here's the thing. NONE of us has to stay in a marriage in which we do not feel free to be fully ourselves and to be loved for that. You don't owe him anything. You were a loving, loyal wife for many years. You are completely free to say 'enough' at any time. Lynn, You, too, owe your husband nothing. And, honestly, staying in the marriage for your son sounds as though it might be backfiring on you and him. God as his counsellor? Are you actually seeing change in your husband? If God espouses anything, it's humility, and it doesn't sound as though your husband has a lot of that. He shattered his vows and made choices damaging to you and your son. If he's unwilling to do the hard (and humbling) work of figuring out why and how to become a better man, then he's telling you that things aren't going to change too much. Are you okay with that? What you see right now (unless he's working hard to change), is what you get. It's always your choice, of course. And none of us is in your marriage. But you deserve someone willing to work hard to show you he's worthy of a second chance. And so does your son. He can still love his father...but that doesn't mean you have to remain married to him.
Hopeful 30 yes it makes me tired as well. You go through so much and still then have to put up with the selfishness and entitlement. After the last revelation a year ago my h went to counselling and said he would find out what kind of man he was and why and try to change but there are still many stresses in our lives and like you said, sometimes my husband reverts to selfishness - is certainly not grateful for the chance and supportive. I've lost patience.
Lynn, I'm sorry you are going through this over and over again also and that your husband is making excuses over the counselling. My h went to a few sessions of counselling after the first affair but the counsellor was not experienced enough and the sessions stopped. My h has now been going to this counsellor for several months once a week and she seems to have unearthed what you called for your h 'a personality disorder' or at least a very poor mechanism for dealing with his needs that is rooting in childhood. My h had just admitted to his 'Jeckyl and Hyde' tendencies and then you used the same phrase! Its so mind bending. My h had a very loving but non challenging mother who thought he was good and a father he could not please - he too could not be bad but felt bad that his mother saw no bad in him either. So he became a martyr, felt he had to suffer and self efface for the good of others but then -it swings back - and he feels he deserves (and will take) something for himself (inappropriate relps with women who praise and admire him.) You talk about love and sticking with the relationship if I love him. I see lots of good in our relationship and that we've had good times together but like you I also feel that the love and respect is gone out of the relationship. If he can continue to do those destructive things over and over, I would not pick a man who had done those things to date, never mind as a life partner, I would not respect them. The only way there can be a glimmer of hope is if they wholeheartedly commit themselves to doing what they need to change their souls and also to engage with the cruel acts they have perpetrated. It doesn't sound as if your husband has done it, my husband has finally started taking steps but its been very compromised. I have 4 kids from 17 down to 10 and my eldest who struggled (he has Aspergers) and was out of school for two years in 2014/15 is doing his final year exams this year. I'm here mostly to keep the family unit going, I'd love things to work but find it impossible to be wholehearted myself until I find out if my husband can get on top of his behaviour. Thinking about what you said about your husband and his refusal for counselling, counselling is the only thing that is turning my husband around for his own sake as much as mine, he dragged on for four years of 'repair' and reoffended without it. He only went for counselling when I said I can't do this anymore and gave three months where I would decide whether to leave or not and he slept on couch. He was shocked and remorseful after the affair in Feb 2014 but he did not change his ways until I said I can't let my mental health suffer anymore and that he had gone way too far. YOu might not want to issue an ultimatum and I totally get staying for family reasons but make sure you don't lose your sanity in the process. Even with this improvement with my husband taking some action, I still feel very shakey, I've had to do so much work to regain my identity and I'm fighting to keep that sense of self while dealing with the reality of what my h is and whether to stick around. I'm thinking of you too Lynn.
Heartfelt and Fragments of Hope Thank you ladies for voicing out my inner voice. At this stage, I am waiting to be back at work after which I will seek therapy for my son and me. My son had a terrible meltdown yesterday. His dad got admitted to emergency unit for a mild heart attack. We are separated but living together after I realised the boundaries set were compromised more than once. I know he is using my son now as his hold on me. Like you Fragments of Hope, I am fighting to keep my sanity and identity. The world sees us as happy and really the perfect family. If only they know how we come to this support group (God bless you Elle for this) and how we reveal how torn and battered we are. FOH, my hugs and love to you. Love Lynn
FOH and Lynn, Sounds as though you're both struggling with a similar situation/choice. And I know it's not easy. It's complicated, of course, by children. And Lynn, I too felt the distinct pain of having this "perfect family" face that the world saw, and the truth behind it. It's like a splinter in our soul, or something. I hate it. And the thing is, we're often protecting the exact people who created the problem. In any case, hang in there. Keep your focus on you and your own healing, regardless of what your husbands are/are not doing. You only need to know your "next right step."
Don't take it personal is right. I had a change in thinking last week that helped me. He affaired way down in all regards... honesty, morals, honor, loyalty, class, financials, intelligence, personality, lifestyle... you name it, she gives him sex, that counts for something. Blow jobs, that’s another one. Down, down. Maybe HE affaired down to his own level. Did you ever think of that? Maybe YOU married down? Did you ever think of that? I really didn’t think this way until Kimberly and SS1 in a round about way said that. See I do listen you sisters. Instead of our mind thinking what did I do wrong? I think at some point we realized if not that bluntly, we married down therefore the stay or go question is hard.
Get this conversation, “you know dear, it is clear you ate with your eyes first and then realized you just picked the wrong cake. I realized either I married down or you affaired down to your level. Seeing such a catch you got, you can have the Sasquatch crotch. If you want a second chance you need to come up to MY level”.
Kim and SS1 thank you for taking the time to help me.
Oh my god, LLP. You make me laugh so hard. Sasquatch crotch. That's beautiful!!! (The word play, not the image.) But yes, I used to think I "married down" after this. And it's a gross feeling. I want to admire and respect my husband. Fortunately for me (and him!), he IS that guy now. I have much respect for the work he's done but also for who he is. And I admire his principles. I think we're a good match. But it took a long time to get here.
Oh LLP I'm with Elle on your word play. I had not thought about the "marrying up or down" much at all although over the years my husband has spoken at special family events and referenced "marrying up" with regard to marrying me. Honestly as I think about those occasions now, with the knowledge I have of his screwed up life choices, I understand that the opposite of this is that I "married down". I never, ever thought of that in those words. He thought that all those years. Now it is clear that he was deeply immersed in his porn/prostitute recreational habits so no wonder he said that. I'm only at three years post D-day and I still at times wonder why I'm still here because just looking at him at times repulses me knowing what he did but I still hope that I can reach the point of feeling like I respect him for pulling himself up and out of the muck. He says he is doing well in all ways. Just wish I didn't have to ask.
It is because of themselves. What about her part in all this. We can’t leave the OW out. How smart was she? She wasn't able to keep him even considering he was in a loveless, sexless marriage to a wife who really didn’t care about him. How pathetic is that she's given the answer to the test. He gave her the answers to his test. She still failed. When the OW said to my H, “Look at all I do for you” that like saying oops in the operating room. These woman are really pathetic and I can't help myself from dissing them from time to time. Their failure is more than a bruise, it is a tattoo, they have to live with, not me.
Hello all! My husband is a functional alcoholic in denial, has cheated on me once and I do believe he is either bipolar or narcissist. This saturday we decided to separate and when we announced it to our kids, my almost 10 yr old son threw a fit and started hitting himself and crying hysterically. He kept asking non-stop, "but why mom, why do you have to do this?". Me, my dad, my husband, my 6 yr old daughter, we were all crying and my son was just outright sad. You have to be in that room to witness the tension! At that stage my husband agreed for couples counseling; which he has denied so far. So we decided to give this another shot for the sake of kids. However, I am still feeling in my mind that what if he gets back to his old ways, no way I am going to live a life like that or put my kids through it. How do I better prepare my kids for a potential separation? How could I have handled my son better? How long will it possibly take him to get over it? When I agreed for couples counseling, only thought that crossed my mind was; what if I mess up my kid's life? I won't be happy with this divorce in that case either? I won't be able to excuse myself for the rest of my life! This is such a hard situation to be in....don't know if I did the right thing. Please guide me through my misery :(
Hi Anonymous Sorry to hear what you are going through. I wish I can tell you or share with you a solution. But all I can tell you now, I understand what you are experiencing. As mummies, our commitment and life are tied to our kids. I just read a news report on Jeniffier Garner still being the rock for Ben Affleck despite their divorce. I am sure it is not bcos of love. Rather to show her kids she is doing all she can to let them have a stable dad. And that is the reason why I retracted my divorce filing. With this 3rd in house separation, all I can say is my son stopped blaming me. He knows I am doing my darndest to keep the family intact just like many of us who chose to stay in bad marriages. I just cleared 4 months of unpaid power and water bill, 4 months of TV and WIFI bill...depleting me a substantial sum of my savings. For the first time, I showed my 7 year old son what the dad has done...leaving debts for me to clear again. I finally told my son about my struggles. I told him it is not to make his father a lesser man in his eyes but to know my pain. I started doing this self disclosure to my 7 year old bit by bit after the 2nd affair discovery Oct 2017. Anonymous, if what I am doing with my son helps you with the kids, try it. Children are smart. They can empathise. After the first affair, I tried everything with H. Counselling, having access to ALL his accounts...you name it. But he still had a second affair and worse is now into fetishes. After 15 years of marriage, you will soon reach a stage you know it is HIS issues. When Elle, Still Standing 1 and other ladies told me much earlier things will get better once I practise self care, I was sceptical as my world has crashed...yet again. Anonymous, take heart. Do prioritise your self. Set clear boundaries. Once your self care mechanisms are in place, you will get stronger and the kids will support you. They may still want the family intact but they will always have your back. Despite his meltdown over his dad's hospitalisation, my 7 yr old boy eventually hugged me and said thank yoy for always making him happy. This time, he did not beg me to look after the dad. He told the dad eat your medicine yourself. Mummy got to rest. Trust God Trust Time. It heals. Big hug for you Love Lynn
Anonymous Oh, your letter is heartbreaking. I'm so sorry for all of you. But here's the thing. Your son was expressing pain. That's normal. Perhaps he expressed it a bit more dramatically than you'd like, but that's probably his personality. And, as parents, we want to protect our kids from pain. We want to buffer them from life's hurt. And we especially don't want to be responsible for creating the pain. But... Life is painful. He's going to learn that sooner or later (and I know you'd prefer later). What you CAN do is give him permission to express his pain without trying to change things. "I know how hard this is for you but please know how much you are loved by both your father and me. That will never change." Etc. I would also get your kids into counselling because this whole situation -- the on again, off-again -- is destabilizing for the whole family. They need a safe place to share their confusion and their pain. This is NOT about you being anything but a great mom. It IS about giving them all the supports you can as you work through this challenging time. Whether or not the marriage survives or not, your kids will. Kids are resilient. Yes, it will be difficult. But life is difficult at times and you can model for your kids that we get through those times. That we share our feelings of sadness and pain (in appropriate ways -- no hurting others) but that we know that no feeling lasts forever. Anonymous, you are doing your very best and please give yourself credit for that. Not only are you dealing with your own pain but you're trying to protect your children in the process. But you didn't create this situation. Making the choice to stay or go is only because you were handed a situation that either is/isn't going to improve. You are giving yourself far too much blame and not nearly enough credit. More than 50% of kids have divorced parents and the vast majority of them come out fine. They key is parents who treat each other with respect (even if they loathe each other) and support the children as they work through the pain. Give them permission to be sad but remind them that they are strong enough to find happiness again. And so are you.
I agree with Elle I would get the kids counseling as soon as possible. Also when I met with my therapist we prepared and would role play conversations I might have with my kids. Therapist are able to help with a lot of this. I felt much more prepared after my sessions. It is never easy at all especially when it comes to our kids. For me I feel best when we take action and have a plan. Therapy would help move in that direction. Then whether you stay together, separate and/or divorce you have a system in place. Kids are perceptive too and who knows what they are feeling. Some let it out more and others hide it. It is good he expressed himself. Thinking of you!
Anon, take a step back and look at this with a clear head. You’ve made a decision to couples counselling based on what your 10 year old wants. What about what you want? He’s a child and can’t possibly understand the consequences of his fathers actions.. and shouldn’t be making decisions for his adult parents. Anon please don’t think I’m being harsh, I’m a mum and I understand the implications of separating. I’ve recently divorced my narcisstic cheating h. And trust me when I say Me and my children are happy and living our best life’s, in fact I haven’t been this content in a very long time ..their dad Has regular contact.
You don’t have to follow anything through if your not happy with what’s happening put your foot down and demand what you want. If it’s an in house separation then ask for it, if it’s out of house separation then the only people that need to discuss this is you and your h. You tell your kids that daddy is going to stay elsewhere for the time being but he will visit daily, weekly whatever you two decide.
Anon your h sounds like he needs therapy, lots of it and if he wants to change his behaviour then great you get to decide if he deserves another chance. I don’t see how couple counselling will help you guys right now I think you would benefit from individual counselling. There are lots of valuable info on here so please take your time and gather as much info as you need before you make your next decision. There is no rush. Take care and look after yourself xx
Thanks for the guidance! I have decided to take kids into counseling as well. I have also decided to keep talking with kids honestly about what is happening in the house. I don't want them to be shocked in anyway. Either ways what I am doing is in their best interest. However, one thing I have noted is; they are preferring their dad over me all of a sudden! What might be the reason for this? My daughter more than my son. She is so clingy to her dad all of a sudden! Everybody says that kids are smart and they know who is at fault, but then why are my kids acting as if I am the one at fault?? It is breaking my heart.....
I did the same thing with my dad. It was my way of not losing him. It was the only way I knew how to keep him in my life. I wanted to be with my dad instead of my mom. He wasn't crying all the time, laying in bed smoking cigarettes in the dark listening to sad music. He was with the OW, going places not sad at all. They were fun to be around. He was happy. I called Dad. Asked if my sister and I could live with him. He said yes, we packed our things, told mom goodbye and got in his car. He put the car in neutral and said get out. You see how this looks through a kids eye. His true self came out that day and I never felt the same about him ever again. He really didn't want me or look out for my best interest. I saw him as a selfish person that day. I'm sure my mom was devastated but never said a word. Have some fun with your kids too when you are able.
Broken My husband an i have been married 4 years an together for 15 ..i caught him cheating in march of this year with a co worker he said they were just friend but who buys a woman 169$ GOLD PLATED ROSE...he was stupid enough to charge it and i saw it on the bill made me Furious! I confronted him with this and he had an excuse saying it was to say thank you for helping him out with things at work( really give her a thank you card)so like a jackass i forgavw him until one day i picked up his phone and saw that the both of them said i love you ...my whole world just stopped i couldnt believe what i was reading ...so once again i said something and he blew up broke things ...i grabbed my clothes an left...to make a long story short im back home and he has made changes but i still dont trust him dont even know if i still love him ..he hasent even told me what they did sex emotional nothing he juat wants to move on like nothing happened..
Anonymous August 27, 2018 at 3:57 PM First you will not mess up your kids life. Use this to help them cope and learn to be resilient no matter what age. My heart is breaking for you and your kids. As a child who grew up in an affair environment for 7 years. I can tell you how I felt as a child from 11 to 18. I left home at 18 years old and returned for short visit, the last 10 years I never spoke to my parents unless I had to. Let your children show their emotions. Let them know this is not their fault. Here is what I wish my mother would have done for me. Explain what was happening in a relationship. "You don't always get along with everyone at school. OR is there someone who you thought was one person then acted like another person who you didn't understand?" Just like your life crashed, so is theirs. Most of all you want them to feel safe and secure. The therapist told me that was what I didn't get. Safe + Secure = Happy. Talk to each child individually alone. Let them vent, let them beat their head, let them cry. You are going to feel like a shit mother. But this isn't about what makes you feel good it is what is going to make them feel safe with you. This is not your fault, they already know it. Him being with your children is not safe. When my dad was having his affair he was also drinking and that scared me. Your kids want to understand what is going on and they deserve to know what is going only as age maturity appropriate. If they bottle this up from no one talking, I became a dysfunctional adult. I was rebellious, lonely, sad and felt empty. I never really got over this Let them see some kind of future and what that may look like. Keep them focused to a safe future. Your kids are already dysfunctional in that home environment. Applauds to you for getting them counseling. See you are doing the right thing already. Set time each week to check in with them one on one alone. Not is a group. Each child has different perceptions which they need to feel free to share. Just listen, you don't need to fix it or respond at all. Just listen. If you separate it is the small things that mean so much. If you have a dog then find a place that allows dogs. My mom didn't and the one comfort I did have she took away. Whatever means a lot to them. Ask them what gives them comfort and let them keep it. My advice is explain and listen. I wish my mom never went back with my dad. Our home was miserable, absolutely miserable. I do not have any fond memories of that time they got back together. It was never the same. I begged my mom not to go back to him. My dad did everything he could to make it up to my mom but nothing was good enough for her. The dynamics - my therapist said, don't think about your mom or dad, don't try to figure it out or make excuses for them. My heart aches for your children so much. Try to keep the real drama away from them. That is for you and the asshole only. What is really sad is I passed down some of the dysfunctional traits to my children. I can see it now. My kids are good citizens, parents and just good adults. In time your children will figure all the details for themselves. Just be there for them, try to understand their dad betrayed them, let them see you cry, let them see you sad. It is all part of it. You will get this right for your kids. You are not dysfunctional. The therapist should be able to transition you and your kids through this. Think very hard what your kids life will be like if you stay with your husband.
Love reading your posts llp.. they hit home loud and clear.. our childhoods were similar ., kudos to you for being the best parent you could be with all that you endured .. your grown up children will know you did/do your best . Hugs llp
Now, facing the wider view of all the ways my husband has operated over the years, porn, financial deception, affair, inappropriate friendships I can see that it was his mental makeup - nothing to do with me. Although along the way I took responsibility for distance in the marriage, for potentially being hard to face when confessing something etc etc. This time last year after 4 years of my pain and heartache engagement with compromised repair he decided that he wanted/deserved to have a social life and that - even though it was against our agreements and would devastate me he would invite single women to lunch with him. Now his counsellor is pinpointing his emotional and mental makeup that allows him to do what he feels like doing even when he knows its wrong. He knew it was wrong and would hurt me. So did he pause, think about telling me what he was thinking, decide not to do it, go and get help, really consider why he was going to do something to devastate me again. No. He admitted that his response to the KNOWLEDGE that it was wrong and hurtful to the wife he had supposedly recommitted to repair with was to LIE AND HIDE IT. No compassion filtering through, more lies. This habit of a lifetime kicked in yet again. I found a link to a post of Elle's in which she asks "Is he a good man who went bad or an immature man who struggles to find empathy and compassion for others." He has been a gentle and kind person, got up at nights to soothe four babies over the years, worked hard, is affectionate etc but he is also the second type, hugely immature, emotionally disconnected, caricaturing me and finding ways to make me seem like the villain so he could do what he wanted. And capable of such cruelty and selfishness. He's now in counselling but I do not want (as I said after d-day) to be married to a man who lies, or to be married to a man who has a mindset or mode that allows him to operate like a psychopath with no empathy or thought for me, the woman who stood by him and offered up so much understanding and care. With the help of long-term counselling he may end up a different man but right now he is still the same immature selfish person who has not been having a relationship with me over a twenty year marriage but with his own agenda. Yes, the words are true, what other people do is to do with themselves but a marriage is surely about two people working together and bending round each other to support, encourage and help each other grow and to take account of each others wants, wishes and values. If I go ahead I am starting from scratch with this man. I don't even know who he is or if he knows or respects who I am. I feel done with him at this moment I have nothing at all to go on.
ReplyDeleteIt has been such a revelation to me that these are his issues. My husband has made and been able to stick with more major changes. He still has work to do in some areas. What I find though is in times of stress or when he is overwhelmed by things I see glimmers of his old self. I think who he is or we all are for that matter is ingrained along the way especially as kids. Nature vs Nurture. My husband has worked really hard to combat those tendencies. And our issues are minor but if he is stressed with work it is as if that takes priority over all of us and our needs. And yes work is important I understand for various reasons. My issue is he will put off work, choose to golf, watch sporting games with friends, take a day to himself and then his stress affects all of us. He has had this down time doing what he wants but we pay the price. It is not centered around betrayal now but I can see where that was an escape and outlet. I find it mind boggling how he can be so successful and have so many great days and moments but then slips back into this self centered entitled person. It is a major challenge. I am not sure how to deal with it. We have boundaries in place it affects every aspect of our entire families lives. It makes me tired.
DeleteSo sorry to hear that, Fragments of Hope. Really difficult to know where to draw the line with someone who can be kind and thoughtful... and yet so selfish and immature.
DeleteI'm sorry I have no advice. Just empathy.
Hi Fragments of Hope
DeleteWhat you wrote about your husband, mine is the same...not similar. The procrastination of work due to his need to PLAY and when he is pushed to a corner, he conveniently shifts the blame on others. We are now on the 3rd separation ever since his 2nd affair (or even more) plus discovery of his fetish. My son is confused bcos he saw how much I have been good towards his dad. I stopped having confrontations or arguments with his dad and chose to talk (which is tough for me as I prefer to be left alone to collect myself). I wrote earlier how I chose to continue in the marriage for my son's sake. But, this decision is wavering. I am tired of him not wanting counselling (claims God is his counsellor...yeah right when he keeps on cheating God?). For me I know the love and respect we have for each other is gone. H is simply holding on to this marriage for convenience and social standing.
I hope you will ride through this storm with your husband, FOH, if you still love him. As for me, I told God every day, bless H and me with the best decision so both of us find our own inner peace and happiness. I bear H no more hatred, more of being trapped in this relationship. I have come to terms he has a personality deficit: Dr Jekyl Mr Hyde as a product of his upbringing. His dad was a former army officer and now a pastor known for having a successful eldest son (H). So my H was never able to be bad before. Sigh...writing all these down is a reminder to me to let my son grow up on his own terms.
My hugs to you FOH.
Love Lynn
Lynn- like Elle says... Why are you settling for crumbs? You need to understand your worth. It’s hard, but if he’s not willing to do the work, he doesn’t deserve you at all. He’s banking on you waivering because he knows it’s a very hard struggle that you aren’t ready for. His mind games are doing you no favors and it will become more apparent in your son’s eyes.
DeleteIf you can talk to a therapist and see there are options for you, this storm may seem more manageable. It’s a day by day thing. You need to put yourself as a priority and talk it out with someone so you can see the light. And in the meantime, ask him what God his counselor is suggesting he do to repair his relationship with you? You can continue to co-parent but if his plan is to just be separated and not fix things on his end, this isn’t going to move in a positive direction. Is he willing to dig in and do the work to be better for himself first and foremost so that you and your son can be less confused and in limbo? Get the answers you deserve. Sometimes the hardest talks can propel you in the right direction. It may seem like going backward but it’s going to help. You are worth it! Believe that!!
Fragments,
DeleteI'm not sure what to say to you. It sounds as though he is a masterful compartmentalizer, able to be loving and warm, but also capable of incredible deception. And here's the thing. NONE of us has to stay in a marriage in which we do not feel free to be fully ourselves and to be loved for that. You don't owe him anything. You were a loving, loyal wife for many years. You are completely free to say 'enough' at any time.
Lynn, You, too, owe your husband nothing. And, honestly, staying in the marriage for your son sounds as though it might be backfiring on you and him. God as his counsellor? Are you actually seeing change in your husband? If God espouses anything, it's humility, and it doesn't sound as though your husband has a lot of that. He shattered his vows and made choices damaging to you and your son. If he's unwilling to do the hard (and humbling) work of figuring out why and how to become a better man, then he's telling you that things aren't going to change too much. Are you okay with that? What you see right now (unless he's working hard to change), is what you get.
It's always your choice, of course. And none of us is in your marriage. But you deserve someone willing to work hard to show you he's worthy of a second chance. And so does your son. He can still love his father...but that doesn't mean you have to remain married to him.
Hopeful 30 yes it makes me tired as well. You go through so much and still then have to put up with the selfishness and entitlement. After the last revelation a year ago my h went to counselling and said he would find out what kind of man he was and why and try to change but there are still many stresses in our lives and like you said, sometimes my husband reverts to selfishness - is certainly not grateful for the chance and supportive. I've lost patience.
ReplyDeleteSelkie, I really appreciate your comments and kind words. Thank you. Its such a fragile and confusing time.
ReplyDeleteLynn, I'm sorry you are going through this over and over again also and that your husband is making excuses over the counselling. My h went to a few sessions of counselling after the first affair but the counsellor was not experienced enough and the sessions stopped. My h has now been going to this counsellor for several months once a week and she seems to have unearthed what you called for your h 'a personality disorder' or at least a very poor mechanism for dealing with his needs that is rooting in childhood. My h had just admitted to his 'Jeckyl and Hyde' tendencies and then you used the same phrase! Its so mind bending. My h had a very loving but non challenging mother who thought he was good and a father he could not please - he too could not be bad but felt bad that his mother saw no bad in him either. So he became a martyr, felt he had to suffer and self efface for the good of others but then -it swings back - and he feels he deserves (and will take) something for himself (inappropriate relps with women who praise and admire him.) You talk about love and sticking with the relationship if I love him. I see lots of good in our relationship and that we've had good times together but like you I also feel that the love and respect is gone out of the relationship. If he can continue to do those destructive things over and over, I would not pick a man who had done those things to date, never mind as a life partner, I would not respect them. The only way there can be a glimmer of hope is if they wholeheartedly commit themselves to doing what they need to change their souls and also to engage with the cruel acts they have perpetrated. It doesn't sound as if your husband has done it, my husband has finally started taking steps but its been very compromised. I have 4 kids from 17 down to 10 and my eldest who struggled (he has Aspergers) and was out of school for two years in 2014/15 is doing his final year exams this year. I'm here mostly to keep the family unit going, I'd love things to work but find it impossible to be wholehearted myself until I find out if my husband can get on top of his behaviour. Thinking about what you said about your husband and his refusal for counselling, counselling is the only thing that is turning my husband around for his own sake as much as mine, he dragged on for four years of 'repair' and reoffended without it. He only went for counselling when I said I can't do this anymore and gave three months where I would decide whether to leave or not and he slept on couch. He was shocked and remorseful after the affair in Feb 2014 but he did not change his ways until I said I can't let my mental health suffer anymore and that he had gone way too far. YOu might not want to issue an ultimatum and I totally get staying for family reasons but make sure you don't lose your sanity in the process. Even with this improvement with my husband taking some action, I still feel very shakey, I've had to do so much work to regain my identity and I'm fighting to keep that sense of self while dealing with the reality of what my h is and whether to stick around. I'm thinking of you too Lynn.
ReplyDeleteHeartfelt and Fragments of Hope
DeleteThank you ladies for voicing out my inner voice. At this stage, I am waiting to be back at work after which I will seek therapy for my son and me. My son had a terrible meltdown yesterday. His dad got admitted to emergency unit for a mild heart attack. We are separated but living together after I realised the boundaries set were compromised more than once. I know he is using my son now as his hold on me. Like you Fragments of Hope, I am fighting to keep my sanity and identity.
The world sees us as happy and really the perfect family. If only they know how we come to this support group (God bless you Elle for this) and how we reveal how torn and battered we are.
FOH, my hugs and love to you.
Love Lynn
FOH and Lynn,
DeleteSounds as though you're both struggling with a similar situation/choice. And I know it's not easy. It's complicated, of course, by children.
And Lynn, I too felt the distinct pain of having this "perfect family" face that the world saw, and the truth behind it. It's like a splinter in our soul, or something. I hate it. And the thing is, we're often protecting the exact people who created the problem.
In any case, hang in there. Keep your focus on you and your own healing, regardless of what your husbands are/are not doing. You only need to know your "next right step."
Thinking of you Lynn! Sorry to hear about the mild heart attack. :(
DeleteDon't take it personal is right. I had a change in thinking last week that helped me. He affaired way down in all regards... honesty, morals, honor, loyalty, class, financials, intelligence, personality, lifestyle... you name it, she gives him sex, that counts for something. Blow jobs, that’s another one. Down, down. Maybe HE affaired down to his own level. Did you ever think of that? Maybe YOU married down? Did you ever think of that? I really didn’t think this way until Kimberly and SS1 in a round about way said that. See I do listen you sisters. Instead of our mind thinking what did I do wrong? I think at some point we realized if not that bluntly, we married down therefore the stay or go question is hard.
ReplyDeleteGet this conversation, “you know dear, it is clear you ate with your eyes first and then realized you just picked the wrong cake. I realized either I married down or you affaired down to your level. Seeing such a catch you got, you can have the Sasquatch crotch. If you want a second chance you need to come up to MY level”.
Kim and SS1 thank you for taking the time to help me.
Oh my god, LLP. You make me laugh so hard. Sasquatch crotch. That's beautiful!!! (The word play, not the image.)
DeleteBut yes, I used to think I "married down" after this. And it's a gross feeling. I want to admire and respect my husband. Fortunately for me (and him!), he IS that guy now. I have much respect for the work he's done but also for who he is. And I admire his principles. I think we're a good match. But it took a long time to get here.
Oh LLP I'm with Elle on your word play. I had not thought about the "marrying up or down" much at all although over the years my husband has spoken at special family events and referenced "marrying up" with regard to marrying me. Honestly as I think about those occasions now, with the knowledge I have of his screwed up life choices, I understand that the opposite of this is that I "married down". I never, ever thought of that in those words. He thought that all those years. Now it is clear that he was deeply immersed in his porn/prostitute recreational habits so no wonder he said that. I'm only at three years post D-day and I still at times wonder why I'm still here because just looking at him at times repulses me knowing what he did but I still hope that I can reach the point of feeling like I respect him for pulling himself up and out of the muck. He says he is doing well in all ways. Just wish I didn't have to ask.
DeleteIt is because of themselves. What about her part in all this. We can’t leave the OW out. How smart was she? She wasn't able to keep him even considering he was in a loveless, sexless marriage to a wife who really didn’t care about him. How pathetic is that she's given the answer to the test. He gave her the answers to his test. She still failed. When the OW said to my H, “Look at all I do for you” that like saying oops in the operating room. These woman are really pathetic and I can't help myself from dissing them from time to time. Their failure is more than a bruise, it is a tattoo, they have to live with, not me.
ReplyDeleteHello all! My husband is a functional alcoholic in denial, has cheated on me once and I do believe he is either bipolar or narcissist. This saturday we decided to separate and when we announced it to our kids, my almost 10 yr old son threw a fit and started hitting himself and crying hysterically. He kept asking non-stop, "but why mom, why do you have to do this?". Me, my dad, my husband, my 6 yr old daughter, we were all crying and my son was just outright sad. You have to be in that room to witness the tension! At that stage my husband agreed for couples counseling; which he has denied so far. So we decided to give this another shot for the sake of kids.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I am still feeling in my mind that what if he gets back to his old ways, no way I am going to live a life like that or put my kids through it. How do I better prepare my kids for a potential separation? How could I have handled my son better? How long will it possibly take him to get over it?
When I agreed for couples counseling, only thought that crossed my mind was; what if I mess up my kid's life? I won't be happy with this divorce in that case either? I won't be able to excuse myself for the rest of my life! This is such a hard situation to be in....don't know if I did the right thing. Please guide me through my misery :(
Hi Anonymous
DeleteSorry to hear what you are going through. I wish I can tell you or share with you a solution. But all I can tell you now, I understand what you are experiencing. As mummies, our commitment and life are tied to our kids. I just read a news report on Jeniffier Garner still being the rock for Ben Affleck despite their divorce. I am sure it is not bcos of love. Rather to show her kids she is doing all she can to let them have a stable dad. And that is the reason why I retracted my divorce filing. With this 3rd in house separation, all I can say is my son stopped blaming me. He knows I am doing my darndest to keep the family intact just like many of us who chose to stay in bad marriages. I just cleared 4 months of unpaid power and water bill, 4 months of TV and WIFI bill...depleting me a substantial sum of my savings.
For the first time, I showed my 7 year old son what the dad has done...leaving debts for me to clear again. I finally told my son about my struggles. I told him it is not to make his father a lesser man in his eyes but to know my pain. I started doing this self disclosure to my 7 year old bit by bit after the 2nd affair discovery Oct 2017.
Anonymous, if what I am doing with my son helps you with the kids, try it. Children are smart. They can empathise. After the first affair, I tried everything with H. Counselling, having access to ALL his accounts...you name it. But he still had a second affair and worse is now into fetishes. After 15 years of marriage, you will soon reach a stage you know it is HIS issues. When Elle, Still Standing 1 and other ladies told me much earlier things will get better once I practise self care, I was sceptical as my world has crashed...yet again. Anonymous, take heart. Do prioritise your self. Set clear boundaries. Once your self care mechanisms are in place, you will get stronger and the kids will support you. They may still want the family intact but they will always have your back. Despite his meltdown over his dad's hospitalisation, my 7 yr old boy eventually hugged me and said thank yoy for always making him happy. This time, he did not beg me to look after the dad. He told the dad eat your medicine yourself. Mummy got to rest.
Trust God Trust Time. It heals.
Big hug for you
Love Lynn
Anonymous
DeleteOh, your letter is heartbreaking. I'm so sorry for all of you.
But here's the thing. Your son was expressing pain. That's normal. Perhaps he expressed it a bit more dramatically than you'd like, but that's probably his personality. And, as parents, we want to protect our kids from pain. We want to buffer them from life's hurt. And we especially don't want to be responsible for creating the pain. But...
Life is painful. He's going to learn that sooner or later (and I know you'd prefer later). What you CAN do is give him permission to express his pain without trying to change things. "I know how hard this is for you but please know how much you are loved by both your father and me. That will never change." Etc.
I would also get your kids into counselling because this whole situation -- the on again, off-again -- is destabilizing for the whole family. They need a safe place to share their confusion and their pain. This is NOT about you being anything but a great mom. It IS about giving them all the supports you can as you work through this challenging time.
Whether or not the marriage survives or not, your kids will. Kids are resilient. Yes, it will be difficult. But life is difficult at times and you can model for your kids that we get through those times. That we share our feelings of sadness and pain (in appropriate ways -- no hurting others) but that we know that no feeling lasts forever. Anonymous, you are doing your very best and please give yourself credit for that. Not only are you dealing with your own pain but you're trying to protect your children in the process. But you didn't create this situation. Making the choice to stay or go is only because you were handed a situation that either is/isn't going to improve. You are giving yourself far too much blame and not nearly enough credit. More than 50% of kids have divorced parents and the vast majority of them come out fine. They key is parents who treat each other with respect (even if they loathe each other) and support the children as they work through the pain. Give them permission to be sad but remind them that they are strong enough to find happiness again. And so are you.
I agree with Elle I would get the kids counseling as soon as possible. Also when I met with my therapist we prepared and would role play conversations I might have with my kids. Therapist are able to help with a lot of this. I felt much more prepared after my sessions. It is never easy at all especially when it comes to our kids. For me I feel best when we take action and have a plan. Therapy would help move in that direction. Then whether you stay together, separate and/or divorce you have a system in place. Kids are perceptive too and who knows what they are feeling. Some let it out more and others hide it. It is good he expressed himself. Thinking of you!
DeleteElle, I think the "Finding Out" section is full and we need another page.
ReplyDeleteAnon, take a step back and look at this with a clear head. You’ve made a decision to couples counselling based on what your 10 year old wants. What about what you want? He’s a child and can’t possibly understand the consequences of his fathers actions.. and shouldn’t be making decisions for his adult parents. Anon please don’t think I’m being harsh, I’m a mum and I understand the implications of separating. I’ve recently divorced my narcisstic cheating h. And trust me when I say Me and my children are happy and living our best life’s, in fact I haven’t been this content in a very long time ..their dad Has regular contact.
ReplyDeleteYou don’t have to follow anything through if your not happy with what’s happening put your foot down and demand what you want. If it’s an in house separation then ask for it, if it’s out of house separation then the only people that need to discuss this is you and your h. You tell your kids that daddy is going to stay elsewhere for the time being but he will visit daily, weekly whatever you two decide.
Anon your h sounds like he needs therapy, lots of it and if he wants to change his behaviour then great you get to decide if he deserves another chance. I don’t see how couple counselling will help you guys right now I think you would benefit from individual counselling. There are lots of valuable info on here so please take your time and gather as much info as you need before you make your next decision. There is no rush. Take care and look after yourself xx
Thanks for the guidance! I have decided to take kids into counseling as well. I have also decided to keep talking with kids honestly about what is happening in the house. I don't want them to be shocked in anyway. Either ways what I am doing is in their best interest.
ReplyDeleteHowever, one thing I have noted is; they are preferring their dad over me all of a sudden! What might be the reason for this? My daughter more than my son. She is so clingy to her dad all of a sudden! Everybody says that kids are smart and they know who is at fault, but then why are my kids acting as if I am the one at fault?? It is breaking my heart.....
I did the same thing with my dad. It was my way of not losing him. It was the only way I knew how to keep him in my life. I wanted to be with my dad instead of my mom. He wasn't crying all the time, laying in bed smoking cigarettes in the dark listening to sad music. He was with the OW, going places not sad at all. They were fun to be around. He was happy. I called Dad. Asked if my sister and I could live with him. He said yes, we packed our things, told mom goodbye and got in his car. He put the car in neutral and said get out. You see how this looks through a kids eye. His true self came out that day and I never felt the same about him ever again. He really didn't want me or look out for my best interest. I saw him as a selfish person that day. I'm sure my mom was devastated but never said a word. Have some fun with your kids too when you are able.
DeleteBroken
ReplyDeleteMy husband an i have been married 4 years an together for 15 ..i caught him cheating in march of this year with a co worker he said they were just friend but who buys a woman 169$ GOLD PLATED ROSE...he was stupid enough to charge it and i saw it on the bill made me Furious! I confronted him with this and he had an excuse saying it was to say thank you for helping him out with things at work( really give her a thank you card)so like a jackass i forgavw him until one day i picked up his phone and saw that the both of them said i love you ...my whole world just stopped i couldnt believe what i was reading ...so once again i said something and he blew up broke things ...i grabbed my clothes an left...to make a long story short im back home and he has made changes but i still dont trust him dont even know if i still love him ..he hasent even told me what they did sex emotional nothing he juat wants to move on like nothing happened..
Anonymous August 27, 2018 at 3:57 PM First you will not mess up your kids life. Use this to help them cope and learn to be resilient no matter what age. My heart is breaking for you and your kids. As a child who grew up in an affair environment for 7 years. I can tell you how I felt as a child from 11 to 18. I left home at 18 years old and returned for short visit, the last 10 years I never spoke to my parents unless I had to. Let your children show their emotions. Let them know this is not their fault. Here is what I wish my mother would have done for me. Explain what was happening in a relationship. "You don't always get along with everyone at school. OR is there someone who you thought was one person then acted like another person who you didn't understand?" Just like your life crashed, so is theirs. Most of all you want them to feel safe and secure. The therapist told me that was what I didn't get. Safe + Secure = Happy. Talk to each child individually alone. Let them vent, let them beat their head, let them cry. You are going to feel like a shit mother. But this isn't about what makes you feel good it is what is going to make them feel safe with you. This is not your fault, they already know it. Him being with your children is not safe. When my dad was having his affair he was also drinking and that scared me. Your kids want to understand what is going on and they deserve to know what is going only as age maturity appropriate. If they bottle this up from no one talking, I became a dysfunctional adult. I was rebellious, lonely, sad and felt empty. I never really got over this Let them see some kind of future and what that may look like. Keep them focused to a safe future. Your kids are already dysfunctional in that home environment. Applauds to you for getting them counseling. See you are doing the right thing already. Set time each week to check in with them one on one alone. Not is a group. Each child has different perceptions which they need to feel free to share. Just listen, you don't need to fix it or respond at all. Just listen. If you separate it is the small things that mean so much. If you have a dog then find a place that allows dogs. My mom didn't and the one comfort I did have she took away. Whatever means a lot to them. Ask them what gives them comfort and let them keep it. My advice is explain and listen. I wish my mom never went back with my dad. Our home was miserable, absolutely miserable. I do not have any fond memories of that time they got back together. It was never the same. I begged my mom not to go back to him. My dad did everything he could to make it up to my mom but nothing was good enough for her. The dynamics - my therapist said, don't think about your mom or dad, don't try to figure it out or make excuses for them. My heart aches for your children so much. Try to keep the real drama away from them. That is for you and the asshole only. What is really sad is I passed down some of the dysfunctional traits to my children. I can see it now. My kids are good citizens, parents and just good adults. In time your children will figure all the details for themselves. Just be there for them, try to understand their dad betrayed them, let them see you cry, let them see you sad. It is all part of it. You will get this right for your kids. You are not dysfunctional. The therapist should be able to transition you and your kids through this. Think very hard what your kids life will be like if you stay with your husband.
ReplyDeleteI don’t know how you guys have handled this extraordinary grief AND taken care of your children. You are true warriors. ❤️
ReplyDeleteLove reading your posts llp.. they hit home loud and clear.. our childhoods were similar ., kudos to you for being the best parent you could be with all that you endured .. your grown up children will know you did/do your best . Hugs llp
ReplyDelete