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| Looked like a pig. But see all the change inside? |
And then Coelho released his novel Adultery a couple of years ago and I decided that I really didn't like him very much.
But this past weekend, I listened to a radio interview in which he spoke beautifully and sensitively about life and love and finding meaning in this world.
And then he mentioned something that we all know but most forget. When asked how he's managed to stay married to the same woman for 34 years, he said this: She's not the same woman.
His remark hit me in a way that The Alchemist did not.
Of course she's not the same woman. Neither am I the same woman I was 34 years ago. Or one year ago. We change all the time.
I hear it on this site: "What happened to the man I married?" "How could I not have seen this coming?" "I feel like I'm married to a stranger."
It feels terrifying. We collectively buy into this illusion that some things never change. How many love songs promise us unchanging commitment? How many greeting cards assure us that love doesn't change.
But it does. And so do we.
And while that can make the ground on which we've built our lives feel unstable, the beautiful truth of it is that change can make that ground fertile for growth. It can promise us that even as we change, we can grow in ways that allow us to love more deeply and honestly, especially ourselves.
I realized recently that I'd stopped really looking at my husband. Day in, day out, he's the same guy, right? Except he's not. So while I could have summed in a few sentences – he laughs embarrassingly loud at comedies, he's incredibly disorganized and forgetful, he stresses too much about money – the truth is that he's far more complicated than that. There's much about him I don't know. There's much about myself I don't know.
I've made it a priority to remain curious about him. To ask what he thinks about things even when I think I already know his opinion. To, and this might sound ridiculous, pay attention. How often do we stop paying attention because, well, bills and kids and sleep and laundry.
My husband is a complicated guy. We all are. And that can feel frightening. But it can also ensure that life is fascinating. Because we are fascinating.
Of course, it's excruciating when our partner betrays our trust. And it's normal and healthy to expect a level of commitment to a relationship. Change doesn't mean we each get to toss out our vows on a whim.
But knowing that each of us is constantly changing, letting go of old information, gaining new information, adjusting our view of the world, can remind us that connection is crucial. Paying attention is crucial. Each day, week, year we're continuing to get to know our partners. And ourselves.
And it means that the oft-repeated adage, "once a cheater, always a cheater" just isn't true. Some will cheat again, absolutely. But those who use this breaking open to better understand themselves are far less likely to cheat. We are not who we were. And neither is he.
I keep seeing references to The Alchemist and I feel like I need to read it. I feel like it is a sign.
ReplyDeleteI have a different feeling, I agree totally about what you say about our spouse. I bought into his image and exterior he presented to the world. And I know this has been said before I elevated him and put him on a pedestal. Now I can see that he is a complicated person who prefers to avoid the uncomfortable aspects of life. We are working on all of that. I agree needing to pay attention and continue making an effort is a huge deal. It is so easy to get caught up in the day to day.
Where I feel different is I feel like I have changed so little. Yes I am more mature and learn from experiences but I feel like I am the same person the day I met him. I am the same person I was the first day of kindergarten. It is hard to explain but I feel it so strongly. The only thing I know is that I began to believe my husbands narrative regarding me and our marriage. I never stopped though. He has said if I did not continue to confront him he would have never said anything most likely. He agrees with me that I am basically the same person. Does that make me boring or flawed? I am not the person people seek out for a crazy time. But the friends I have had for 20+ years are amazing. And I feel like now my husband values what I have to offer. Maybe middle afi is kicking in. He tells me all the time there is no better person for him. He knows I am loyal, honest, trustworthy to a fault. I am very independent and somewhat introverted, I feel very little need to be with others. I often think these women being aggressive towards him was it appealing since I would never or have never done that in my life. I would laugh at that type of girl even in high school. Maybe that was part of it having a woman pursue him for 3-4 years before giving her his phone number. I am an only child and I think it factors into who I am and my personality a lot. my therapist and I have talked about this a lot and just my thoughts and feelings on the topic.
The ting I grab onto from this post is "those who use this breaking open to better understand themselves." That is my h. Although he is still messed in the head (otherwise he'd realize what a lovely amazing person I am and how luck he is) he has been doing the work with his therapist since dday. He has a lifetime's work to do, however. So my fear is that he won't figure it out "in time." In time for me to still be here, in time for our kids not to be wrecked by his choices, in time for there still to be an us to save. I want that so much and I think ti is why I am so stuck right now. I believe he can change and grow through this. But it is more important that he believe sit and does the necessary work. So hard to wait and see. I feel like a bystander because this is his show right now and my life feels on hold. I guess that is my choice though, isn't it. I'm choosing to be on pause. Not ready for the big d, yet, if I ever will be. My therapist says if I get there, I'll know. Meanwhile, I feel... off. Stuck in the house today waiting for a service call. Would like to be out on my trail, watching for eagles, running it out. Maybe later. He's such a dumbass. And I'm crazy for extending my heart, but that's how I'm made. Jane Austen wrote something like " a woman's heart loves longest, even when all hope is gone." From Persuasion. One of my favorites.
ReplyDeleteStill Standing, For me too the biggest personal awareness is I have no control over how he acts. I was an amazing wife, mother, in great shape, ran a great house, did everything right yet he still did all of this. So no matter what I do it does not matter at all. It is all up to him. And my husband has changed and "thought" about it a lot. He has the professional experience himself. I can appreciate that he has the background he does but he had the same background when he made all these choices. So how is he equipped to help himself alone. I want him to be happy and do what is right for him. He says that is being with me forever. He is so determined to make the most of this second chance. My therapist thinks it is really promising since he has been in this mindset for so long. He said he could not fake something like this for this long even with his professional training and knowledge. So I agree I am in a holding pattern. I plan to push him some since he is content where he is. It all looks and feels happy but I still want more.
DeleteHi SS
DeleteI feel so much the same way!! Life on pause, waiting to see if my H is willing to go the distance with me and build a 2nd marriage together. We talked recently and acknowledged that we are not in the same place right. I know I have to wait for him and that is my choice, it is also my choice on how long I will wait.
My life is not totally on pause though, I am doing a lot for myself. Facing fears and become much more self determined and actually doing self care. Following your posts, I also know you are doing a lot for yourself. Dont sale that short!!! Don't minimize all the love and investment you are doing for you!!!
I am also not ready for the big d, I know I am willing to wait for some time. But waiting, while doing the work of being wholehearted myself. Not waiting for him to come home and make me whole.
I also love Jane Austen and that quote is one of my favs too. ❤️❤️
Love
Becky
There is an interesting video on TED TALKS on youtube from Esther Perel and she talks about why Happy Couples cheat. One thing that really stuck in my head was her saying how some of us will be married 2 or 3 times and that will be to the same person. I never thought that my husband was capable of cheating and neither did he. I know for us it's a chance to rebuild and grow again. I think that if there was a good foundation to begin with that healing can come and the second chance at making things work out can be better. Sometimes I think these men have to loose their minds for them to see what is right in front of them. I know that I have changed in the last 25 years of our marriage and I am now an even stronger person today then I was a year ago. Dday was a year ago on September 2.
ReplyDeleteLost my post!!!!! Arrrrrrrr!!!
ReplyDeleteMelissa, I finally realized that the reason my posts were not going through is that after I checked the box about not being a robot I forgot to then hit the Send button! Maybe that is what is happening with your posts? Beach Girl
DeleteThe above mentioned point about a strong foundation is a good one. If that is there from the outset and the Tsunami of an affair hits, chances are that a new relationship / marriage can reconstructed from the ruins.
ReplyDeletewww.infidelityhurts.com
Beach Girl here. It is amazing that my real life experiences often parallel these posts. Yesterday I had some leisure time with my best friend in the sunshine. I shared with her that as I get farther along this journey I feel clarity about my life. Although my husband and I are together and things seem to be going well, I feel like a widow who is dating/living with a new man. No matter how hard I try to look at the past, the knowledge that my husband's porn/sex addiction was grandfathered into my marriage has led me to my own little "compartment" in order to move forward. The overwhelming emotional pain and sense of loss over the trust and safety issues has taken a huge toll on me. I wear my new diamond ring, no wedding band. My husband and I look so different from D-day. We have both lost about 40 pounds and I am a pretty short person so it matters. I love him but I am no way "in love with him" like I use to be. I feel somewhat muted in my emotions and guarded in my sense of safety and trust. Actually no trust, just acceptance of the day. He does not talk about the past because he does not want to live there. (crap I know. unresloved issues for sure) He knows I struggle. He wants us to stay together and I believe him. Whether he can maintain his sexual sobriety is to be seen. I am able to look at him as a new man, a new person and a new opportunity but my first 36 years with him are over and dead. I cherish my memories of our family and happy times but when I think about them, he is really not "there" in my mind. Now I know in reality he wasn't "there" a lot of the time even though his body was present. I wonder if I am having a complete mental breakdown sometimes but this is finally something that works for me. The man I married died and along with that death came the ability to stop focusing so much on "what the heck was he thinking" because it no longer matters as much. When we head to San Diego in another week I believe he is planning some kind of recommitment ceremony with new wedding bands. Since he perfected the fine art of compartmentalizing his life, he is easily able to look at our life together with warm fuzzy feelings. I can't. I sometimes think he has some serious mental health issues. He does not go to therapy or do anything I am aware of to maintain his sobriety except stay present and adjust his mindset when a situation presents itself. When I look at him as a new man in my life it is easier to really look at him and relate to him in a new way. Our anniversary is in January and last year we did not celebrate it. I cried a river. I hope to not cry this year but if I do it will be to mourn my first husband and the life I thought was good. New neural pathways need to be forged in my head now and I am trying to stay focused on those new things that make good memories. My husband and I are together most of the time because he is retired and I am self-employed and work from home. We spend a lot of time together and with the kids and grand kids. He has not traveled out of state without me since disclosure which is good. So, back to San Diego, and the potential "recommittment" ceremony, my best friend asked me if I would feel "authentic" if I accepted that ring feeling as I do? All I can say is that the new ring represents hope for the future with a new man and new life based on truth and authenticity. It is certainly not a recommittment to my marriage. No way. Hoping this makes some sense to everyone out there. Maybe now I will go eat some pistachio ice cream and call it a good start to the day. Love, hope, peace and friendship. Beach Girl
ReplyDeleteBeach girl, yes yes yes! I feel the same as you do. My husband does reminisce often which is hard. He has all these positive memories of the past. It kind of make a pit in my stomach. All I can focus on is I know he was not there 100%. Who knows to what level but I know he was not there for a long time. All that does for me is amplify the way he treated me so poorly. He talks of wanting to go back to places we have vacationed for our anniversaries and that is hard for me. I am resentful that I left my kids to spend time for a man who was just going through the motions. I have all these cards he gave me over the 10 years and they are filled with such amazing words. But like you these don't mean anything. He tells me I look at things as too black and white and it was grey to him. He would go months with no contact, then there would be contact. It explains why he would be great and so close then get cold and distance since as he said he felt horrible. He always had great reasons work, parents etc.
DeleteI heard early on the Esther Perel talk about most people will have several marriages and will yours be with the same person. Also I read about a well known psychologist and he was giving a talk and brought up how marriage is hard. And he said how him and his wife went through a rough period and went on to say it was 10 years. And I see it with my friends and my husband sees it at work so many couples just go through life not connected. They might be faithful and together but not much of a marriage. I am thankful this has lead to a change for us. I too hope even though what I thought we had is dead that what we have started to create can continue and grow and evolve into something worth staying for.
The recommitment ceremony sounds great. I think it is good you are open to it and positive. I still wear my rings really only because my kids would notice for sure. I did want to sell them at one point but my husband freaked out about that. So I still have them. I guess now I know no words, piece of paper, jewelry or anything else is a promise but instead it is within each of us. I cannot wait to hear all about your trip!
Hopeful 30, I am not interested in going back to the places we went to at all. For years we spent a few weeks on Oahu in January where he acted out two years in a row. I told him I would never go there with him again because he polluted my anniversary vacation. This year we went to Maui and we are going back to Maui again in November. I don't care how much it costs, suck it up buddy. We took a long road trip last year and in March we went to Mexico for the first time. He did not want to go and I said, "OK, I will go by myself". He went and we had a good time. I see absolutely no reason to revisit places where I now know he objectified women, watched porn on his I-pad while I was doing whatever and where he lived his bizarre fantasy life. Not a chance in hell. I'm devoted to taking warm weather vacations to placed I want to go and places he did not act out. Hence, San Diego on the beach. I am focused on trying out new restaurants, traveling to new places and experiencing new things. I will do it alone if he won't come but so far he is agreeable. You get to be the "decider" as far as I am concerned. I've deleted years worth of photos of us/him and with the exception of my daughter's family wedding photo that hangs in our dining room, I've removed all the photos of him and him and I. He, on the other hand, has created shrines to us. He is bending over backwards to make amends but honestly, how does one really make up for screwing up so badly for 37 years? I deserve much better than that and I am going to make sure I get my needs met and do the things I want to do. It would cause so much pain to our kids if they ever found out what an asshole their father really is. He had a lot of choices and made so many poor ones. Life goes one and I am doing my best to keep my feet out of the quicksand but I know for sure that there are places I will never go with him again but I will go without him at some point. During one of my last meltdowns things got hard and words were said and I just said to him, "I am not responsible for your life". Amen. Period. Tonight I feel strong. Tomorrow I may crump. But know this, I will be back here to listen, share, cry and celebrate with each of us as we make our way through this terrible place. Beach Girl
DeleteBeach Girl,
DeleteI'm struck by your ambivalence re. the potential ceremony. And I'm wondering if this is something you should talk with him about. I think it's important that these men really come to understand the feelings we have around this. I think that, by us staying, too many of them breathe a sigh of relief and figure the worst is over. For them, it probably is. But for us, it's just beginning. We have to process all that pain and grief. So while they get to feel great that their wonderful wife is still there and they didn't have to pay the price for their cheating with their marriage, we have to pay a price. And they need to realize that. To deep-down understand that we're paying a price.
So...maybe use this as the chance to deepen intimacy by sharing your pain with him. He might resist (most do). And he might not get it. But it's crucial that we honour ourselves by being honest about our feelings .It's not our job to make them feel good. It's our job to be honest with them about our feelings.
Elle, thank you for the note. When I think about this potential "ceremony" or whatever it is he is planning, I feel like I am willing, for the second time, to make a commitment to him as his/our second chance to build a better marriage and life. He is beyond depressed and despondent about his life and his choices and I believe he is sincere at this moment in his conviction that his "acting out" is over. (I think toddlers "act out" but I digress.) I have not wavered on the new rings and honesty about how I feel but I do feel as if I can promise to be a better partner in life because like you, I can reflect on how I let so many things slide over the years and how I made excuses about his behaviors. Those days are gone. I am committing to being the best person I can be, the best partner I can be and to be true to how I feel. There is no wiggle room in his life for errors of the sexual kind. I am in awe of the women on this site who can make space in their hearts for "slips, relapses or whatever you call it" but I've told my husband on numerous occasions that I am not that loving/forgiving person. It is hard to justify loving a person who has led a secret life forever but knowing now about his life and his interpretation of life, I am willing to do this one more time. I do not trust him, he knows that and it is unclear to me if I will ever trust him again however the efforts he makes on a daily basis to live an authentic life is heart-warming as long as I don't focus too much on the facts of his past. I love being here. Beach Girl
DeleteThanks beach girl… I write from my phone so I never have to do the robot thing. I got a new phone and ever since I did I have to login each time and sometimes when I do that I lose everything. I am going to be in touch with Apple and get this thing figured out. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteHello Elle and all of my Sisters on this lifesaving site. Such a timely topic because I am so incredibly, deeply and remarkably "changed" right now I don't recognize myself. On Sept 23 I am having a hysterectomy. Pieces of me blame the man in my life for planting some toxic seed there...whether I contracted it from stress or bits of beastie didn't just poison my spirit, but also my guts. I'm scared. That fear has formed a crust on me that rejects him--full stop. I cannot look him in the eye, I do not want him to be near me and I wonder--did I just make a decision (as in have I fallen out of love for real) Did I change forever or am I in the throes of a fear driven episode that is causing me to look through a distorted prism ? It is so true that we change, but I am fearful that all those goofy, gunky, murky parts of me will perservere and that ultimately I will exhibit "change" by switching up my laundry soap. Love, peace--Shawn.
ReplyDeleteGod I love you!
DeleteOne armed pie maker! Just finished being at Hank Williams Jr. You picked me up and lifted me back!
Oh and just so y'all know, I've been with my gal since he gave me HPV as a virgin teenage girl and was told point blank then that I would face the cancer aspect at this most golden age...no I'm not going to dwell but I will cross that bridge if I have to! God loves you too One armed pie maker!
DeleteOne armed pie maker .... if i could id come sit at your kitchen table you bake pie and id bring the dessert wine i know what your feeling different but the same ... the year of dday i felt the most excuritaing emotional pain i thought i knew and then months later the most physical pain with an injury that may or may not have been caused by the stress and toll of this bulkshit on my body or maybe just bad timing... i required surgery, i was greatly restricted and healed for 12 weeks forwhich i truly had no choice but to ask him for help and accept it. Am i changed hell yeah and i might just be a little wiser too. I recall someone here telling me yes this,sucks but this time might just be a time for my H to show redemption or perhaps ur right its now your enough to change directions adjust your sails and try that new scent of soap but dont be in a rushing haste as you undergo this procedure and time to heal be kind to you and know you are stronger then you think and you will prevail. The physical and emotional pain together i felt enough i might just die but i still here.. im still recovering almost a year out from surgery by that i mean steengthing remembering to take care of me and trying to not be hardened by it all. A little prayer for you today and for a speedy recovery. Hang in there Shawn you are not alone. Superwoman no doubt. Just be until you are on the up and up.
DeleteOAPM,
DeleteI'm so sorry. A hysterectomy brings up so many conflicting feelings. Gratitude for surgery that can make you well but also the loss of parts of ourselves, especially parts that contribute to fertility. So I wouldn't underestimate the symbolic loss you're experiencing. I remember my mom's hysterectomy -- she had no plans for more kids but it still affected her sense of herself as a woman.
And yes, infidelity no doubt plays into your feelings around this too.
I'm sorry you're going through this. Everything else should grind to a halt while we deal with infidelity. We should be able to pin a sign to our chest that reminds the universe that we're at quota for painful experiences so please lay off.
I also heard this interview and really loved it. I am a Coelho fan, I have read many of his books and loved their exploration and insight to parts of the human condition. I only read 1/2 or less of adultery and hate it!!!
ReplyDeleteBut to his point and Elle's, we are changing and growing. We are not married to the same people and we are not the same people. And it is very easy to complaisant about that with ourselves, partners, family Ect... I know I was very complaisant about my changing/ growing self for years!
I for one am happy I am not the same woman I was 15 years ago. And now 15 months post dday feel like I actually want to be on this journey. It is still hard, scary, and at times deeply painful, but I know I am on a journey to knowing and living my true self and it is the journey of a lifetime.
Full disclosure: it took 1 year to approach this point. I was kicking screaming, crying, why meing, counter moving on myself, wildly resisting in every way I could for a year!
I know my H has changed too and I really don't fully know where he is on the journey. (He has wildly resisted his own journey too). With my whole heart though I hope he journeys to his true self as well. There is one thing we both agree on - our first marriage is over. We are exploring the possibility of a 2nd marriage as part of our journey.
Love and support sisters
Becky
Becky,
DeleteThat idea of a second marriage is one that has really helped me too. Whenever I find myself thinking back to "before", I get angry. And yet, when I look at who my husband is right now, I'm fine.
All suffering comes from living in the past or the future, says the Buddha. Sounds about right to me.
Shawn, Still Standing, Beach Girl, Becky and all the other ladies that are here… I find I am challenged right now. Today has been very difficult, with lots of tears. My husband went up to his parents again to work on his brother-in-law's shed. He made it known to me that I should not go because I have to work. I did not want to go, but his telling me I cannot go because I have to work is just wrong. ( I have my own business and can make my own schedule, which frankly I believe he is very jealous of.) I believe he wanted the time away as he is the type that needs such a thing… And I would appreciate it if he would've simply said that. I will speak to him about it and have already, but not in those terms. There's so much about him that I love… And then, there's the part of him that I don't. In particular, the part of him that buries himself in nonsense so he does not have to face the issue at hand or connect, truly connect with someone. I hear time and again that this is a male trait and even recently he asked me if I thought I would be better off married to a woman. Believe me, sometimes I have thought that, simply because I believe women are, no question, emotionally superior to men. That may sound sexist… And I guess it is. I do believe it, just as I believe men are better, in general, in certain areas over women. OK, enough of that. I think what I'm struggling with right now is… Once again I am questioning whether or not I want to remain in this marriage. And then I think to myself is it me? And what I mean by that is… Will I carry this issue to the next marriage? I absolutely like time apart from my husband, yet that, the security of doing that at this time is simply not there. Sure, I can go out for a night with a girlfriend, but to go away for a few days, which I have done since D day, is very difficult for me. I am trying to get to that point. I do not want to be married to a man that runs away… And is that merely my term?… And does not converse with me on an emotional level. Or if he does it is extremely limited, as that is his capacity. If I bring up my feelings, he takes offense and usually gets upset. ( let me clarify, that is, feelings related to our relationship, not feeling some regards to other people and/or issues.) On the other hand, if he notices that I am upset and he comes to comfort me, then he is fine. Funny thing is when he is home and we are out and about and doing things and going places I don't go here in my head. It is when I feel rejected. And from November 2014 until now really, he's been leaving the house a lot more than he ever did in the past. Granted, except for in the beginning, every time he goes it is with family or up to his family's home. Even still, it is a trigger for me, a trigger that he is running away… And abandoning me. I know you ladies cannot fix this and only I can, I just wanted to share. It's the rabbit hole. And sometimes I just cannot talk myself out of the rabbit hole.
ReplyDeleteMelissa
DeleteI feel your pain! When my h goes anywhere for work or pleasure, I have triggers I can't explain!
I hear you on these feelings. I am very independent, work from home and set my own schedule. My husband does too. He also is really close to his family actually he was too close in my opinion (and my therapist thought so too). We both struggle when we are away from each other. He never loved it before after three nights, but now even 1-2 is a challenge. That has been a good change for us but it happened gradually. He associated being gone from home with fun and escaping day to day life. When he was home it was all negative. Now we both see it was tied to him not handling parenthood, our marriage, day to day life and then eventually the guilt of cheating.
DeleteMy therapist helped me a lot with what I needed to say to my husband to confront him related to his family and how he spends his time. My husband was committed to improving but honestly he had led his life one way for 20 years and I really went with the flow and did not feel like it was an issue. But once the affairs hit then we both knew something had to change. But it was hard for him especially to see what he needed to do. Part of the boundaries we established was to have him ask before planning anything, once planned I needed to be kept up to date on where and who he was with. Also we planned ahead how long he would be gone. If plans change he needs to call or text.
As far as the family goes we had some really hard conversations about primary relationships. My therapist was helpful with the exact language to use to start the dialog. It was hard. But through a lot of work he started to see how is family had formed a barrier between us. Who knows if that was part of why he felt less connected to me before the affairs. Kind of a chicken and egg drill. One thing that my therapist finds so complex is that my husband has always been much more concerned about his parents and even friends and what they think vs what I (or our kids) think or feel. We were lowest on his list. He still does not always realize how he deals with his parents and friends but he is becoming better and more aware. And even though his parents had nothing to do with the affairs it is intertwined in his decisions and behaviors.
Have you seen a therapist on your own? For me it helped a lot. It gave me the clarity, wording and confidence to figure out which conversations we needed to have and which were not necessary. I have so many thoughts that run through my head but if i brought them all up it would be a mess. My therapist helped me see where there were major issues. And these family discussion are not easy with my husband. But they have gotten much easier and I think we are a lot closer.
And as far as needing time away I totally get that. However, if it were me I would want to discuss that we need to have an open dialog if that is what he needs then he needs to learn to state it that way. I know for me that would make a big difference. And I would say to him that it is part of what makes me feel safe and transparent. My therapist said that my husband lost all that freedom and ability to do what he wants when he wanted when he did what he did. And especially in the beginning it is really a lot of work and whatever I needed to feel good about the marriage. In time things can evolve or change but in the first 15 months it pretty much was my way. And sometimes I made the boundaries more strict.
Melissa. I noticed the same about my H in 2015 and into the first part of 2016. I thought it was this newfound "2nd marriage" we were into and I thought it was healthy, somewhat that he was off to help his relatives--mom--aunt-move into assisted living, sell things off for them, put things in storage, but in the end it was more about him being away so he could get blow jobs from random craigslist ads. It also happened every time I went away for a few days or he an evening, or he went to "the library" and i had NO idea. I only say that--well-maybe just to say that--because I now know that his 'affair" in 2013 was a manifestation of something so much deeper (his diagnosis of Sex Addiction) I didnt have a problem with him being away, I had a problem with his emotional distance when he was home!!!! Yeah, i have felt like an idiot recently.
DeleteI just had a week like your having Melissa--i got angry, but for a different reason, at his continued contact with an old hook up--he had deescalated it into a text only "emotional" affair, although he, a week later is only starting to see that it WAS an emotional affair and not me "sexualizing" everything he says.
When he disclosed this texting relationship he honestly expected a pat on the back...he was shocked that i was not "grateful"
He was pissed that I was pissed. But it was OLD info for him and brand NEW info for me. Had he told me this two months ago I would have worked thought it by now, but he didnt, so guess what--I need to process again, and that process included hurt and pain and anger.
I felt so DENIED my right to express anger--because when I am angry it causes him to spiral. He cannot come to me to comfort me right now (fix me) because we are living apart. He is much more comfortable, I think, when I show hurt and not anger. I'm not sure what I am trying to say here except, by me NOT being wiling to shut up OR make him feel better about my anger by apologizing for it (i apologized for the behavior but not the anger) he was forced into eventually using all of his new tools to calm himself down (the old tools were booze and sex)the new tools are 12 step, reflection and contact with MEN.
My fear is that he can almost ALWAYS look back and see what was wrong about his behaviour, but he does not always see it when it's coming or happening. I told him this morning (again) look, i was duped for 18 months, and there are times I am going to be mad. I'm sorry you're not comfortable with it but I'm done swallowing it. Doesnt mean I am going to end the relationship over THAT, I know what you did was OLD stuff to you, but it was ONgoing and NEW for me. What WILL kill this relationship is ongoing transgressions, or new ones, or shutting me out. I'm DONE being shut out. I dont know if this is any help to you, I am not beating anyone over the head with my anger--but it's there and it's going to come out, and it's healthy that it comes out, I'm not berating anyone, I'm not abusing anyone. I'm not duping anyone. That rabbit hole is a dark place, I know it well...but try to take a flashlight with you. Do some writing or some reading or some reflecting on what you really want.
It's no coincidence that men who cheat have trouble with our feelings. They have trouble with their own feelings. The affairs distract them from that stuff. It's like an escape hatch for them.
DeleteAnd so...when that coping strategy is removed, they're stuck having to deal with things they don't want to deal with. And so...countermoves. Passive-aggression. Anger. Sulking. All the things that shut us out and, too often, shut us up.
We don't have to tolerate the counter-moves. We know we can't change them. But we can change how we respond to them. Don't back down. Don't shut up.
And, yes, give some serious thought to whether the person you're with can meet your emotional needs, now or in the near future. Or are they doing what they can to learn how to. If not, you can choose to stay, knowing the landscape of your marriage or to leave. Not easy, I know. But sometimes, for all our best intentions, our marriage isn't worth saving.
Beach Girl here. Dear God, I have a love/hate relationship with rabbit holes myself. I've just had a very difficult 12 hours myself with buckets of tears and conversation. My husband feels horrible about how he behaved and acted our entire marriage. I did tell him last night that I felt like a widow trying to make a new life with a stranger. Our conversation this morning was again, painful, tearful and hard. He thinks because I continue to have questions about a lot of things that it is because I want to hurt him. Sigh. Self-centered idiot. He created this mess and I told him that when I shared my deepest, painful thoughts and feelings about my life, our history and his behavior in the past that I am being extremely vulnerable and risking a lot to have these painful and intimate conversations with him. I told him that this is what committed couples do when one or the other is in emotional pain, they talk about their feelings. Just because he is the root of this mess should not mean that he avoids my conversations and feelings or that he interprets them to be my lashing out at him. Nothing is further from the truth. I do not hate him anymore and I am not angry. I am somewhere else on the emotional spectrum but the facts of life are that until his disclosure I led a fairly naive existence where the hundreds (exaggeration)of daily reminders of porn, infidelity and sex just bypassed my awareness but now they slap me in the face and taunt me when I am feeling vulnerable. I explained this to him. While he is becoming skilled at recognizing and rejecting unhealthy thoughts and triggers, I am continually assaulted like D-day. I really don't know what the future will bring because I'm not going to stop sharing my feelings when I get sad and down. I am pretty sure we both want to stay married and on my good days I can look at him and feel sorry for him because he screwed up his life so royally. I know he feels a strong sense of purpose and redemption and wishes I could see inside his head and heart to understand where he is in the present but the sad truth is that I have been married to him for 37 years and never would have guessed or even thought he was capable of doing all the things he did. He has no explanation or won't offer one. He just doesn't want to go there. I finally did tell him this morning that I believe, regardless of what he says, that his choice to pay for sex was just that, a choice. If he really was an "addict" he would not have done it just once on our Hawaiian vacations, he would have done it many times as he always went on long walks in the morning while I went to the pool for exercise. He won't defend himself or say anything but I really can't accept that a true sex addict can pick and choose when he acts out. Seriously? So right now, as I type this, I am recovering emotionally from another episode of "Can this marriage be saved?" with the answer, "Yes" I am going to stay the course. I do love him although I'm not "in love with him" like I always felt before. Sometimes I think I don't make any sense but that is life. Much love, hang in there, Beach Girl.
ReplyDeleteHi Melissa
ReplyDeleteThe hard days really do suck and rabbit holes can make you nuts!!! I know!! The feeling of being rejected or not included is so painful!!!! It really triggers me too, many times before the affair my H would have plans ect... That did not include me, which can often be completely healthy. However, for us it had some issues associated with it for each of us differently. And after the affair oh man, those feelings of rejection would trigger me like crazy.
Also I have had to travel for work a few times and it was super super hard and scary to be away. I get that too. Basically I would feel ok if we were together and there were no cell phones.
You know we are separated and in a difficult period right know... And I have often thought of the question do I want to be in this marriage??? I am finally coming to terms with no, I don't. Unless we both change and have changes in how we relate to eachother, our families, and other people. It would have to be a wholly new relationship. I am also coming to terms with the reality of the time this could take..... Years.
My heart and thoughts are with you sister!
Love
Becky.
Melissa, first hugs and hugs and hugs. So sorry you are feeling lousy. But let yourself. Wherever you are, that is where you are supposed to be. My Reiki Bob would ask me, "what is this telling you? what do this feeling, this situation do FOR you?" In other words, accept the feelings but question/challenge the thoughts. I'm reading a book by Andrew Marshall, a British couple and infidelity expert. Most of the things he writes are practical and helpful (although sometimes I don't agree with everything and he does suggest you have more power to "save" a marriage if only one of you is trying etc. than I think is real. However, overall helpful stuff. He's got another book I havent read called "How can I ever trust you again?" which goes into the stages in more detail but I have not read.) Right now the book is "I can't get over my partner's affair" available on kindle. In there he talks through many situations that will sound familiar to us all and helps get you out of emotional flailing and into deep thinking and problem solving. He also talks about stages of recovery and how this stage that you are in, where you are doubting if the hard work or the person is worth fighting for, is one of the hardest (believe it or not) and that there is hope out the other side, if (as we often say here) you both keep doing the work.
ReplyDeleteYou note to yourself that you go down this rabbit hole when you are apart. Of course you do, Its freaking scary and requires a level of trust that you may not yet feel. Time and space apart is healthy though, so can you talk to him about what you need to help you feel safer and give him the space he needs? Could he call and check in at agreed on intervals? Can he do some act of love (like send flowers while he is away - its ok to ask for this and doesn't diminish the value of the gesture, he may need to be led at first). But the bottom line is he's still trying and you are still talking, so its not hopeless. Are you still in counseling individually or together? I believe there is real value in this. Also, it is absolutley OK for you to question where your relationship is and if it is right for you. And it is OK for you to ultimately decide it is not right for you (though that is incredibly difficult for me to say, personally, right now). keep thinking and feeling recognize that thoughts are not always facts, especially when they are about the past or the future. In those rabbit hole days, take some time to breath, be with yourself and do something that helps you be grounded in the moment. Much Luv, SS
Theresa, Hopeful, Steam, Becky, Beach Grill, and Still Standing…
ReplyDeleteThank you all so much for taking the time to respond to me and to lend your insights. I am truly grateful. Many of you asked if I was in counseling… Yes, I started back again about two months ago. My husband is no longer in counseling, and in fact, he was never in individual counseling. I have had so many counselors tell me that counseling only works if you believe in it… And my husband does not believe in it, for him. Even my current counselor said, it is absolutely fine if my husband does not go to counseling. As he noted, we all heal and grow in different ways and counseling is not for everyone. As for my husband reaching out to help me to feel better… He does that as best he can, however, up at his parents house he has very limited/sketchy cell coverage and for him to call me on their phone is long distance. Our agreement is that I call him at his parents house in the evening after his workday. As well, when he is able, he calls me from his cell and/or texts me. I absolutely know that the reason I am more intensely triggered of late is the fact that his 0W is moving out of state. Apparently she is selling her house, actually it is her and her husband's house, although they've been separated for years. She is then moving out of state to live with her mother. She had reached out to my husband and he had attempted to respond to her - I "caught" him. He explained it all to me and I learned something new by doing my own research. If you block someone on your cell phone, their phone call is blocked from your phone but it is not truly blocked, unless you call and have it blocked from the carrier. Unfortunately, when he got a new phone about six weeks ago, her blocked voicemails came through on his new phone. He listened to them and learned about her moving out of the state. Then he admitted to me he was curious, so he unblocked her and she was texting him, apparently repeatedly, that she was upset - and "needed" him. He was texting her back because "I was curious." It was a crazy scene, lots of tears and him telling me how stupid he was, he doesn't want her, he wants us, which I know is true. I really do know that that is what he wants, yet it is crazy making that he doesn't realize he cannot be in touch with her at all. So, when he was going up to see his parents he was going to be driving closer to her home on his way to his parents. (I called him right when he would have been arriving at her place (if he had gone) and, he answered and we chatted for a while.). My therapist has told me not to badger my husband about trust issues - in fact, my therapist knows this whole story about the potential contact that my husband was trying to make with the OW… The therapist knows that my husband has once again blocked the OW. My therapist gave my husband kudos for that. Again, according to this therapist as well is our last therapist… it is not whether or not the wayward spouse is in touch with the OW; it is how do you feel the relationship is progressing. As both therapists have explained to me, you cannot control your spouse and you can never know for sure, but what you can know is how your relationship is going. This is the indicator. This is what matters.
I am going to go into another post as this is getting so lengthy. Me, lengthy? Not me ... Lol
To continue my thoughts… people who have not been involved in an affair will tell me to just let this stuff go… Don't pick at a scab, you will reopen a wound… My husband's mother said to me you wanted to reconcile the marriage, so just let it be ... or, if I speak to one of my friends, the tone of her voice is so judgmental as she questions why I remain in the marriage. I try to explain to them but they will never get it. So I reach out to my girlfriend whose husband did have an affair. She immediately gets it… Just like you ladies do. Like you said Hopeful, if I brought up everything it would be a mess… Yet I need to know that I can bring up some things. And frankly, that is what I am in therapy to get better at. I find myself fearful of expressing what I truly want or need to my husband, yet I noticed that when I do… He is responsive. My behavior is learned from my childhood and my relationship with my father, and was reinforced during certain parts of our marriage - by myself and my husband, unknowingly. I marvel at how strong and independent I am as a professional and business owner, yet at times, I am like a frightened little girl when I want to express my needs to my husband. I did tell him that the next time he goes up to his parents I am going along. That was that. He joked about it a bit, which made me laugh, and that is the plan. Here's to getting stronger and better and wiser and more loving with ourselves and others every day! Thank you once again ladies. I would LOVE to meet you all. I wonder? What if we organized a get together? No special plans… Simply choose a place, everyone make their own reservations, and we get together for a few days? The Warriors of the Betrayed Wives Club unite!! And down the road, as we grow in numbers and strength, we take on a cause… I don't know what that looks like yet. I do know this… We would make a difference in any thing we set our mind to.
ReplyDeletePeace, love and light ladies.
A BWC get together sounds amazing! :-)
DeleteFirst of all a get together would be amazing!
Deletewhat is so hard for me is how their judgement and decision making can be so off from what mine is (and my therapist says is "normal"). I struggle with that a lot. Hearing your story about him being curious and texting her. We have not had it to that extent but we have had issues and it is hard to even understand. One thing that has helped my husband as a mental cue is he says he thinks about if I were to read the text, read the email, be next to him and hear what he says. Basically he does not do anything I could not hear or read. He said it has really helped him but he does not feel like he is doing it just for me or I am nagging him or playing a mommy role at all. That was my big concern that it would be a drag. He said he likes it and it makes him feel so much better about himself. He is starting to see others and their behaviors and now they are wrong, disrespectful and can cause harm. What his friends and he used to think of as simple flirting on the golf course, with a waitress etc. Again nothing happens but as I have harped on I think those incidents create a mentality that lowers your inhibitions and makes him more vulnerable. I think you are doing great and on the right track. I only go to therapy and it has helped me a lot. My therapist agrees too that if they do not want to be there it is not helpful. And since my husband is in the mental health field he is confident my husband would say the right things to progress quickly but not get any true help. I have found that aspect irritating but based on my husbands progress I am trusting him he is working hard and taking this seriously. Hang in there and you sound like you are on track!
"My therapist has told me not to badger my husband about trust issues" Um, what!?! What does that even mean? You are not allowed to express your feelings and anxiety. I don't get it. It just doesn't sound very "therapy-ish." I also get that therapy doesn't work for some people. It does not work for my daughter and she certainly tried multiple therapists. Basically, she was too smart and could tell what they were doing with questions etc.and told them she didn't like to feel manipulated. But I also think sometimes it is a maturity thing. She wanted someone to "fix" her feelings or situation and didn't understand that there was work she had to do too, that she has to open up to it. But she is open to EMDR because I was able to demonstrate that there is "real science" behind it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, just putting out there that if there was a annual gathering of the BWC I would show up with bells on AND make t shirts.
Melissa I'm up for a get together : ) how awesome would that be !!!!
ReplyDeleteElle, what do you think about a get together for the ladies here? Perhaps you could set up a separate section where we could discuss it? ... Of course, totally up to you. I know that I suggested it… Yet for some reason it feels a little scary too ... I guess I need to go back and see my therapist today Lol
ReplyDeleteIt's something I've thought of. I'm just not sure how the logistics would work. How do we exchange contact info without putting our e-mails out into the world? Let me think this over...and send me any ideas. It would be wonderful!
DeleteAre we able to have a closed group on facebook (I belong to one for animal rescue and my privacy has been very well protected). Members could disclose what info they feel comfortable putting on the site without any unapproved visitors ever seeing it.
DeleteStill Standing, my therapist was agreeing with me that if you continually mistrust someone, that person will simply throw their hands in the air - of course the wayward spouse must demonstrate trust, by indicating his whereabouts and being available if you are checking on him etc. It is kind of like what Hopeful said, obviously if I am feeling quite anxious or mistrusting I would speak to my husband about it. Yet if I spoke to him about it every time I felt the least bit anxious it would not be good for our relationship and reconciliation - that's the "badgering" part.
ReplyDeleteThank you for asking and sharing Xo