I recently had one of those "a-ha moments" reading an e-mail that quoted Brené Brown's wise words on boundaries. That they are simply "what is okay and what is not okay."
And what I suddenly realized is that the missing words are "for you." And that, my soul-warriors, is what trips us up. Too often we think that our boundaries are not only what is okay and what is not okay but that others need to agree with us about what is okay and what is not okay.
And so we get talked out of our boundaries.
It might go something like this: It is not okay for my chronically late friend to keep me waiting. Next time it happens, I'm going to give her five minutes and then I'm going to leave and go on with my day.
We set our boundary. It is not okay to keep me waiting. If we're feeling super-mature, we tell our friend: If you are late again, I'm going to wait five minutes and then I'm going to leave.
And then this happens: Our friend gets defensive. Our friend tells us how busy she is. Our friend insists that she's rarely late. Our friend reminds us of the time we were late. Our friend suggests that a true friend accepts others just as they are. And so on.
Or, just as we're leaving, our friend arrives breathless and sees us with our coat on and our purse and our keys in hand. I got caught in traffic, she says. Or I got stuck at work. The babysitter was late. Why are you in such a hurry? What are you being so hard on me? I suppose you're never late? And so on.
And our boundaries, that felt so firm, suddenly feel squishy. They feel selfish. They feel awful. And the critic in our head starts up: You're not perfect so what gives you the right to be so hard on others? You've been late before. What makes your time more valuable than theirs. And so on.
What felt so simple and so clear – What is okay and what is not okay – is reframed in our own heads as selfish and rigid.
And, then, for many of us, we give in. Or we at least get into a discussion, as if our boundaries were negotiable.
They're not.
What is okay and what is not okay is not negotiable. They are our boundaries. Their purpose is to keep us emotionally and physically safe. What's more, they keep a relationship healthy. They keep us free of resentment, that poison that seeps into the cracks of a relationship and makes it toxic.
You know the feeling. The one where you've been talked out of your boundaries and so you sit back down with your late friend but you're seething with resentment as she chatters on about her life. Or you agree with your husband that you're being hard on him by insisting that he sleep on the couch when, really, all he did was have a lunch meeting with a woman in his office, who's actually old and unattractive and he would never ever cheat on you again anyway so why are you making such a big deal about this. And while he's congratulating himself on convincing you that it wasn't such a big deal after all, you're fuming because you feel violated, yet again, and you feel that you've betrayed yourself, yet again.
Yep, that feeling.
And that's the thing with boundaries. They are about self-care. They are about self-respect. Those who can't see that – who instead make it their mission to convince us that our boundaries are negotiable – aren't interested in respecting us. What they want is to control us. To keep us pliable. To keep us doubting.
Remember: Boundaries are what is okay and what is not okay. You get to decide for yourself. And it doesn't matter if anyone else agrees with you. Your boundaries might shift over time but they should shift only because you've decided to shift them, not because someone else has demanded that you do. For one person, being kept waiting is not okay. For another, time is a relative construct. There is no right and wrong. There is only what is okay and not okay for you.
The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
This makes it so simple Elle, thank you xx
ReplyDeleteBoundaries are hard for me sometimes for one very specific reason: I'm not always clear that I have something worth protecting. It's a self-worth thing. I spend so much time concentrating on meeting the needs of others and protecting them, that I can lose touch very quickly with my own needs and value. This has been the biggest lesson in my journey after betrayal. Once I began self care (which was a term I had no experience with that I learned here, so thank you!) it was only a short trip to getting in touch with the fact that I had worth. All by myself. Regardless of my successes or failures. Regardless of what I did or didn't do for others. When I was able to feel personally worthy of good treatment and regard from others, it was much easier to form boundaries and keep them. I was worth it. Asserting a boundary feels risky because you're essentially drawing a line in the sand and laying it all on the line for yourself. You can't control how the other person will react. They may decide you're not worth that. They may leave. So if you adjust your boundary, you're adjusting your self worth to meet their assessment. Not good. So I've found it so important to practice self care and watch what I say to myself. I have to keep my sense of self worth strong so that I can not just feel justified, but feel responsible for protecting that (protecting me). I'm amazed at how quickly that self worth can get depleted and get me into trouble: an unkind word, not enough sleep, pushing too hard... if I let self care slip, I feel it right away. It's a battle, but one worth fighting. I tried living by disregarding myself and just caring about others, and that did not work because others act for their own pleasure at my expense if I let them. I may lose some relationships in my life due to boundaries, but as long as I don't lose myself, I can get through that. If you're new here, start with radical self care and see where that takes you! Hugs.
ReplyDeleteann
DeleteI too struggle with doing more for others than myself but I also learned here how important my self care was in order for me to function! I’m still a work in progress as I daily live through one more day of taking care of my mother. I’m finally learning to lean on the support of my hospice helpers and I am amazed at how much my h has stepped in to help me! Thanks to all y’all and Elle for lifting us all up!
Ann,
DeleteYep, that's your work to do. To recognize your worth and treat yourself with respect and care. We can't be our best selves with others when we're running on resentment and a need for praise.
ann, So well said. I feel so much the same. I think the biggest thing I was taught was to help and take care of others. However maybe it is just me taking things to a whole other level but I see it in how my parents live too. Up until my husband's betrayal. Boundaries are so hard for me too and seeing my own self worth. I also have the issue in the past of feeling like it was me setting rules and playing the "mom" role. However this states the new perspective this website gave me that it was about what I was okay with not about telling someone else what to do. During the 10 years of gaslighting I think I was lulled into this way of thinking.
DeleteElle keep telling those betrayed how strong we all. We deserve boundaries. We deserve to have a life we want to live. So true. I'm ready to put you on plane first class and come kick some H ass for SS1, Steam, Twins Twice, 1998, Sam A, Beach and Hiking Girl, Selkie, Theresa, Pilot wife and Jo and do a tour of sorts like a rock star. But no you are helping us to be rock stars. It is damn hard to stand up for yourself sometimes. The words race in my mind. My therapist asked me to tell my husband the thoughts I had in my head regarding an issue. He was shocked at the back and forth. What I have notice, thanks to all of you the soft whispering push back. Just slight enough to hear. It is like a fog that rolls in slowly in the spring when the ground is warm and the air is cool. It is easy to recognize the loud shouting, angry, facial gesture ones but oh that so subtle pushback is what me take a Xanax with a clue of why. I notice the subtle gas lighting my H does. "You so sensitive; how can you think that; why are you saying THAT; going there sounds ok, wouldn't you rather do this;, I don't know why you are doing that, what are you doing now, please sit down." Elle, you are right there needs to be an action to a pushback. But is the subtle ones that I'm learning to recognize. It just shouldn't be so damn hard to stand up for myself.
ReplyDeleteLLP,
DeleteYes, there is often pushback but consider this: It's not what your husband is saying to you that's the problem. It's what you're saying to yourself. When he says "You're so sensitive" what you're saying to yourself is "You're TOO sensitive." When he says, "How can you think that?" what you're saying to yourself is "It's WRONG to think that." That's not to say your husband isn't gently manipulating you, even subconsciously. It IS to say he couldn't do it successfully if you weren't helping him by doing it yourself.
One thing I have noticed is I would always speak up but then I backed down when he told me whatever he was thinking/directing me. I can see it now looking back. He always made me feel this way and second guess myself. I would take in what he said and I would then do exactly what you are saying Elle. I have made a big promise to myself that I will not back down. When I bring something then the husband has his say I go back to my point. I have been so firm with him on my thoughts and opinions. This is very new for us after 25+ years. What I have noticed is he is listening more instead of just reacting. It is working really well. I have found everything is so beyond the affair now it is all about what kind of marriage we each want.
DeleteYour right Elle, that is what I do think, I must be all that. I never realized it and thank you for taking the time to respond.
DeleteYou know how I love to ramble I kept telling him, I loved you more than you loved me. I learned that isn’t true. I invested honestly in our relationship. It meant a great deal to me, and I thought that it meant as much to my H. It didn't. If the relationship meant as much to him as it did to me, he wouldn't have risked blowing it up. His pain will never be as great, because his perceived loss is not as great. He spent a lot of time detaching emotionally from me to make the affair possible, justified how horrible I was, so he was even less invested than he was to begin with.
ReplyDeleteHe treated me as an object. "Hey, you clean my house, wash my clothes, get the oil changed in the car, hey you did you buy any toilet paper? and work full time cause we don’t have any money." You're super useful. The OW tells him how amazing and wonderful he is all the time. That's also very nice. “I'll keep both." There's no consideration of how his actions or choices affected me as ME.
I hear it said that the affair is not about me but when this happens to me it feels completely about me because I was denied what another woman was given. It takes a long time to get over it and to move past it.
I get meatloaf for dinner and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch and drive a minivan. He has an affair. He gets Prime Rib for dinner and a fine cuisine for lunch, and drives the Ferrari version of me.
I am now caught trying to catch up. Do I give my H the Ferrari version of me? No I’m still a minivan trying to get H to go back to a minivan? The Ferrari version of me brings me back maybe that is not the real me. "It's not fair" that the “I wants” what the OW got. So what do I do to make me whole again? Why should I settle for PB&J lunches when he got the AP Fine Cuisine? How am I going to make the H feel the imbalance that he created? I have been thinking a lot this weekend and I'm so sorry that I wasted more time on HIS affair than I should have. I wasted so much time dwelling on a penis and vagina for at least 2 years. It makes me sick. I should have been spending 100 percent on me. I eventually go around to it. I wasted so much time dwelling on, vanilla sex, money struggles, all the fun things that were reserved just for me. Him, getting wild sex whenever he wanted and me a cold shoulder. Can you imagine how I felt when I was being told how much he loved me then has to rationalize the thought that several hours before my H was basically squealing like a pig in her bed with the OW? What makes really sick is how much time I spent of my life minutes dwelling on HIS problems. I should have been focused 100% on me. I eventually go around to it but it took two years to even get started. I thought about a penis and psycho bitch kindergarten tuna town, way too much. I made a promise to myself this weekend no more of my life minutes is going to be spent on the geography of tuna town. If you haven't seen Jumangu movie, in one part they have three lives to play the game. Then one character loses two. He freezes instead of moving ahead. He says, I'm afraid I'm going to lose my life, I can't go forward. Another character said, you only ever did have one life".
LLP - sadly - this all makes sense to me. I keep hearing over and over again "I chose you" ... I knew without a doubt you were who I wanted ... but yet he continued communicating with HER. I don't care that you say you didn't see her ... that you didn't sleep with her ... you continued to communicate with her. You had old faithful taking care of shit on one side ... and the fantasy ego fluff on the other.
DeleteEstel Perel said it best in her podcast with Tony Robbins ... I don't want you if you're going to be cold as ice with me ... I want him invested in ME ... not the other way around.
I'm done being the safe, reliable SUV that was purchased so I could haul our children, their shit and their friends around. I'm ready to start living like the sports car that he drives and so lovingly cares for.
Well explained llp, I love it when you ‘ramble’ you make so much sense of what I’m feeling .. xc
DeleteLLP and Kimberly, You guys ARE the Ferrari versions of yourselves and don't forget it. Give YOURSELVES the best version of yourselves that you can...and you'll find you have plenty left to give to those you love.
DeleteAnd yeah, at a certain point it's time to stop giving our finite time to people and events that are only bringing us pain. Time to rev the Ferrari and look forward, bringing with us only that which makes our lives better.
LLP
DeleteI too became stuck with ‘I want and deserve that passionate sex’ that she so proudly stated was his love for her... then I realized that I could only have passionate sex if I was as passionate as him! I struggled with the sneaking around for lunch dates to ‘keep her quiet’ and her one trip out of town for one more night of passionate sex. Then my h began to tell me how he struggled to keep her silent because he knew how mad I was gonna be. He never expected the rage nor how long it takes to repair the damage but when he explained that the driving back was when he really killed her heart by telling her that he didn’t love her it was just him being lustful...and she cried that 2 hours long trip and then he quit responding to her text and calls until she blew up my phone. That’s when I realized that his affair was not what I was looking at in my mind movies and I finally got past that part...I think that was about year two...it’s a slow process for sure!
This is lovely. At 2 years out, there are still setback days. Today was one of them, and it had something to do with what’s okay and what’s not okay. On setback days I usually find myself here, and more often than not, Elle’s post for the day speaks directly to whatever caused my setback. It’s remarkable, Elle is remarkable. Here there be comfort.
ReplyDeletePeriwinkle!!! So lovely to see your name in the comments section.
DeleteI'm sorry you had a rough day. But so glad that you're able to slip into the site, get what you need to remind you of your awesomeness, and then get back to life.
Periwinkle, I'm pretty sure if this were a comic book Elle's super powers would include reading people's hearts and saying just the right thing at the right time (no pressure though Elle, even super heroes don't super all the time). :)
DeletePeriwinkle, I hope you got some of the sunshine that shone on me yesterday and that you are being kind to yourself about your setback. Hugs!
Ladies, thank you! How buoying a warm welcome back can be. SS1, you make me wish I were a graphic novelist so I could immortalize Elle the Compassionate in grand super hero style!!
DeleteI’m not sure if I’ve figured out my posting problem, but I wanted to let you know I’m still here, almost daily. It marvelous to feel so supported, and if I can start posting again, I’ll try to be more avaialable for providing support to the inevitable newcomers. I look forward to trying to get to North Carolina in the fall to meet as many of you that can make it there.
Love and hugs to all,
J-
Elle this piece is so apt for me today. ‘They are our boundaries. There purpose is to keep us emotionally and physically safe’. How true those words are! Only six months since DD and I have allowed my husband to go on a preplanned ski trip with a mixed group of friends. I realise I did set boundaries and conditions before he went and felt guilty for doing so. I told him I expected lots of phone calls and text messages whilst he was away so that I knew I was in his thoughts all the time. Day 1 - I had to prompt those very calls and messages. Since discovery we have also spoken about the part alcohol had played in most of his poor decisions. That first evening after a prompted late night/ before bedtime call he was so drunk He could hardly string two words together. This fact he denied the next day. We still have a lot of work to do but I feel empowered by what you have written Elle- THEY ARE MY BOUNDARIES, MY RULES! THEY ARE TO KEEP ME SAFE.
ReplyDeleteThank you
Swan on the Surface, I would encourage you, while he's away, to figure out what the consequences are to his violation of your boundaries. He didn't call as he had agreed. You had to prompt him. Don't let him talk you out of it or discuss it like a lawyer. It's black and white. And, in this case, he violated your boundaries. Do some thinking about it and then it's something to discuss with him. If you let him erode your boundaries or talk you out of them, you're giving away your self-respect and your power. You deserve to have you boundaries respected, especially when he's asking you to give him a second chance. He needs to step up and show that your faith in him to deserve that second chance isn't foolish.
DeleteSwan, Very similar situation for me. We are almost at three years past dday so at a different point now. I will say my husband knew how to travel, was the life of the party and planned all of his guys trips. He was amazing and everyone loved him. He would do that for our family too and vacations were great even most every day life was great. However he had two sporadic 10 year affairs.
DeleteI 100% believe my husband's drinking played a huge role in his affairs and everything connected to him as a person. This has been a huge topic for us in addition to his friends of choice. My husband had two trips planned when dday hit. He did go on both of them. I will say we were very specific about exact times and number of times he was going to call. He committed to answering my phone calls or texts immediately. I was able to track him on his IPhone. The first trip was really hard for me. These boundaries have been followed even for a day of golfing or night out watching a game with friends. I know some people here would say I need to tell him to not drink at all or I am gone. I have thought about that and we have discussed that. I do not get out lawyer talked however he is a mental health professional so that can be tricky. My therapist agreed with what we have set up. So now every time before he goes out or on a trip he tells me where he is going, who he is with, what time he will go home and he will tell me exactly how much he will drink or not drink. He has found that he never really thought about what he drank then I think he would get caught up in the moment. By setting an intention of his plans he thinks ahead and has a plan. I know everyone might not agree. The way I framed it was what I expected in our relationship and he said he felt best when it is this way. This took a lot of trial and error and working through this. I did at one point tell him if he wants to live a carefree life of drinking whatever he wants, driving home, and not being connected to me that I want to be on my own.
I am not sure if your husband feels this way but my husband is affected by the drinking. And honestly I can see why he did it for so many years. It was his way to escape and run from his shame and guilt. My husband is affected by alcohol not only that night but the next day and the says following. Alcohol affects us all differently but he really is. He admits to that now and he is happy with his changes. He has had friends ask him since they have noticed such a major change. He has just said he is making better choices for himself and our family. He has realized he is actually happier now than ever. But again this has been a long path of us working through this and him doing a lot of reflection. I think he felt like if it happened 1-2 times a year no big deal. Compared to the past and compared to his friends he is a saint now. And the big kicker was he said he feels like if women are not involved then he is being responsible. I had to explain to him that women or no women it is not okay and who knows over the years if those boundaries for him could slide like they did before.
This is so me. I'm better about some things, but still let myself get talked out of my boundaries about others. I can really see myself with the running late story. And I want to be kind and patient with others, but what am I putting up with as a result. As my therapist challenged me to think last session, why am I making excuses for people? what does that do for me? Why am I more comfortable backing down than letting people be uncomfortable dealing with their own stuff? Still working on that.
ReplyDeleteSS1, It's so hard to NOT get talked out boundaries when we're reasonable, mature people who also have a bit of a problem with pleasing people. We get caught up with the logical part of it ("yeah, I suppose five minutes late isn't such a big deal") and it's already so uncomfortable to be standing up for ourselves that we almost welcome looking like the bigger person by being "flexible" or "reasonable". Bullshit to that. Let's all try to learn to live with the discomfort of sticking to our guns and making it clear that flexible is for yoga. We'll be flexible when he deserves the benefit of the doubt and not before.
DeleteI know sticking to my guns is super hard for me because I've been talked out of what I know for so much of my life. Ex. when you know your mom has a "drinking problem", hides vodka bottles in her closet and has a stash in a small bottle in her purse at all times, but no one else will say out loud or agree with you that its a problem. No she's fine. So after a couple decades of this you are turned loose in the world wondering if you know anything at all. So if you doubt you know anything at all about anything. I joke with my therapist and friends that I am never 100% sure about anything. So my therapist suggests I practice taking a stand and being sure about and speaking up about little things, where the stakes are not so high, so I can get better about speaking up and believing what I say about the big things.
DeleteOh my god, everything you say!! I seriously question reality sometimes -- am I really in my car listening to music or is all this an illusion? But yes, that's the souvenir from growing up in a home where mom was "napping" as opposed to passed out cold from drinking. Where my mom took cough medication every single bloody day because she was getting a "cold", not because she smoked cigarettes. It really sets us up for people to tell us up is down and have us nodding our heads.
DeleteThanks llp he certainly needs a good kicking xx
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me that i need to
ReplyDeleteSet more boundaries. My problem is that i am so busy or do
Tired from being busy and my h does so much to pick up the slack and more that
But let things that bother me slide. I am just too tired to deal with them. That’s on me. I don’t know if he’s manipulating or just falling into his old behavior or if he even knows but that’s not my problem.
On another note a new show called Here and now. The somewhat unconventional but highly successful family looks great from the outside. But dad has a hooker. Trigger alert. When he’s having sex with her it’s so pounding and ugly. He’s 60. She’s in her 20s. Obvious he’s a regular. If nothing else the show does go on to watch him break down in that car after seeing her. I trust because he feels like shit. I’m sure we’ll know in upcoming episodes. Show is pretty intense.
Steam thanks for the warning. I'd likely not watch that as I've focused on nature shows since D-day. Saw my new therapist yesterday and will continue to see her twice a month for a double session for the forseeable future. It was so good and so painful and so necessary and so helpful. I learned a lot yesterday. I'm looking forward to meeting you in person. I really cannot think of another boundary that needs to be set in my home. Not a single one. Does not mean that the need may not arise but right now, all seems to be good.
DeleteI'm so glad for you Beach Girl re. the therapist. I hope it helps with so much of those long-ago and more recent wounds.
DeleteAnd Steam, yes, I find when I get tired or overwhelmed, I default to letting people violate my boundaries. It takes concentration and focus for me to stay firm in them -- which I suspect will be the case until setting and maintaining boundaries becomes my new "normal".
Beach Girl, I actually thought of you during that scene because it was shocking to me, he's a professor and i thought she might be a student, but no, a hooker who might be asian. I actually put that post out as a warming for the triggers, but I just KNOW the wife is going to find out. I hope they make THAT as realistic as hubby's meltdown in the car. I'm so glad you've found a good therapist, it makes all the difference in the world.
DeleteSteam, thank you for having my back and protecting my heart. My new therapist suggested I join Vicki Tidwell Palmers online support group. I get her blog and I bought her book about overcoming triggers but I think I bought it too early and was unable to even read more than a page. My new therapist suggested I read Vicki's other book called Moving Beyond Betrayal. Anyone familiar with that one? I've so much to think about and it is all about me.
DeleteLLP I have been having such a hard time with obsessing over this affair all day every day and your comments really helped me today. I’m going to stop trying how to figure out the what/where/whens etc this week and focus on me. It’s my 40th birthday next week. It all seems so fitting to discover the affair on NYE and then have my 40th a few months later. I don’t want to keep obsessing even though I think it’s kind of inevitable. I want this year to be about me. Figuring out what I need to make me happy and healthy. Btw all that Tuna Town talk had me cracking up and smiling all day. I’m taking a break from thinking about Penis’ Adventures in Tuna Town today. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteNorCal,
DeleteIt really is about pulling yourself back into the moment when you find yourself obsessing. One of the tricks my daughter learned when her anxiety is ramping up is to focus on specific sensations right now. What does the chair feel like beneath your butt, what sounds are you hearing, what smells are there, what can you see and what is beyond that, etc. etc. Anything that pulls you out of the fantasy and into the moment. And do it as often as necessary.
NorCal,
DeleteGreat advice from Elle!
I obsess all the time! Not only that - I have to consciously not look on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter-my H and his girlfriend profess their Love online.
I work out a lot and try and substitute teach any chance I get.
You do have to just say “Stop!” And live in the moment! When I’m home - Luckily my kids are always doing crazy crap or need help. I try and just get involved in what they are doing. And sometimes they will snap me out of it. “Watch with us Mommy!”
It helps to do small projects - cleaning or fixing things! Just to get your mind off it all. That helps me.
Watch a movie you want to see. Play a video game! Whatever it takes. I know exactly where you are coming from and it sucks!
Hi everyone
ReplyDeleteLynn here. The letter from the court specifying for H and I to attend compulsory marriage counselling came. My lawyer told me to attend 1 session and request to be out from the rest.She knows about H's cheating twice and his fetish but refusing to seek help. My lawyer told me she is surprised for someone lovely, with a good career and providing a lavish lifestyle for my family, I am such a push over. She called H a bastard.
Elle, reading this about boundaries, I thank you. In the 20 years together of which 15 was married, I realised I lost myself completely as I was trying to please everyone. I like to make others happy. And this is the biggest problem.
I am on my own with God navigating me in this decision. You know, there are remarks that I will regret leaving H given how much he loves me (oh so true that he cheated twice and told me he is purchasing other woman's underwear to enhance our sex lives!), how he is getting close to God to heal (ermm, he WAS already close to God when he brought the woman into the car I paid for and had a blow out) and many others.
Oh...and the issue about a spell being cast to see us divorced is highlighted by H too. Well, the first time he cheated, my boundary was to exit. But I shifted that boundary, believing the spell reason.
I am thankful I am finally seeing things from my perspective and even asserting my boundaries. H came begging for my forgiveness almost daily citing the spell to separate us. I told him flatly, start to admit to his issues. God is always protecting us. The biggest devil is in him. And I can no longer be the angel to make the devil repent as I deserve peace. Oh ladies...I am sure you know how this feels when you finally...finally...after all the years of abuse; put your foot dow and draw a clear line.
Xoxo Lynn
Lynn,
DeleteYes, it feels liberating, doesn't it? To finally draw that clear line and know that you will not violate it.
Stay strong, Lynn. You're doing so great.
Boundaries...... what is OK for me. Absolutely nothing my WH does is OK. Nothing he has ever done was OK. I never insisted on anything, well I am sure I did but he would just laugh at me and gaslight me out of it, and he never felt like he crossed any boundaries because, hey - he's a pilot, he's hot shit, he deserves it and who the fuck cares about any one else. That is his attitude to this day.
ReplyDeleteThe only boundary now is a steel wall, surrounded by a brick wall, surrounded by a barbed wire fence. That is the boundary between me and him. I don't trust him, I don't believe anything he says and I hate him.
Now he wants to go to counseling, now he wants to find a mediator, now he wants to separate. It's all total bullshit brought on my his Latin Slut Poet Girlfriend. His whole attitude has changed since early January - when he suggested Marriage Counseling and wanted to drop everyone and everything to try with us.
It's all so obvious but he keeps telling me that it has nothing to do with him being with someone else. He is so full of shit.
I wish I had the money to go to Litigation. I would rip his fucking head off and take everything from him. But - to mediation we go to be friendly and nice about it - ahhhh - it's all so nice!
I don't think he realizes how much I hate him. I literally can't even look at him - It makes me want to puke.
My one boundary will be that I will never let him step one foot in this house when we separate. He can't stay here and I will not do as other pilot's wives do - let him come in under the radar because he is gone all the time. No - let him stay in the shitty hotel down the street and take his kids there to see him - take them out to eat and them drop them back off. Let him feel that boundary - let it hurt -
Ann - This immediately came to mind reading your reply! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGwV4mrOCJo
DeleteI'll bring the matches and lighter fluid. :)
I'm going to draw on your strength in the coming days. No more gaslighting! No more settling!
Kimberly!!!
DeleteOMG! I feel like that woman most of the time!!! Thanks for that!!! It was awesome! I ramble on like her too! Kinda scary!
I have just had it with his BS! Nothing he says makes sense or is the truth. Nothing. He tries to spin everything! I see it so clear now.
I am stronger- I still faulter a lot but I know ever since I came out of my Anemia coma in November. 2016- I saw how messed up he was and how messed up everything was!
I probably need to handle my anger and rage better-but for now it works!
At least he will go to Mediation and we can get it done. I will be able to breathe!!!
Let me know what is going on with you! You are so strong too! With the new baby on the way and going through all this! I’ll support you any way I can!
Hugs!!!
Ann - I am trudging along. I am less than 2 weeks away from delivering - if he doesn't come on his own I'm inducing on his due date.
DeleteFriday night I was back on Craigslist and found an ad that was quite similar to the one that he said he posted before. So new persona created and an e-mail sent off. The guy replies back ... lives in the same area as we do ... my reply is a different city and a different name than mine. His reply was ... His REAL name and that he has 3 kids. And the text app that he was using was one that I knew he used and the name on the text app was HIS first name and the first initial of our LAST NAME.
I completely lost it. My friend was trying to keep me calm enough to get a picture before I attacked. I couldn't do it. I'm obviously still not completely in control of my emotions yet.
He vehemently denies it. Absolutely denies it. Begged me to stop this and just come back to him. I flat out told him I wanted a divorce. That I was done being the idiot. And that I'd barely been out of his bed (we've been intimate 2xs in the last 2 weeks ... including the day before). I screamed ... I cried ... he cried ... and I was like I'm done. I can't do this anymore.
I went back to my "apartment" and he followed me. Finally the sleeping pill kicked in and I dozed off. He brought out daughter into me and laid down with us.
We ended up talking all night. I didn't sleep a wink. And at the end I am still convinced that this is him. That he placed another ad and I blew my opportunity to nail his ass with hard evidence because of my temper.
I flat out told him last night I didn't believe him. That there is NO way I would think otherwise. And that while I was willing to do marriage counseling ... I'm NOT sure I'm willing to stay in this.
So ... that's me. Bamboozled, gas lighted, chumped ... whatever you want to call it. And it sucks.
Kimberly,
DeleteOh no. I am so sorry you are in this awful place. I have been right where you are a million times. Trust your gut, trust your instinct. You know he is lying.
I wanted to get a divorce last March, but my WH didn’t want to. He wanted to go on vacation and see if we could reconnect. We never did of coarse. He wanted to try and stay together. I had his FB password at the time and could log into his Tinder account. He was on FB and flirting, making plans for his next trips, messaging on Tinder, flirting with his best buddys married flight attendant girlfriend! And that is when He was trying with me! I remember one chick in South America that he messaged. He told her when His flight got in - it was late - about 11pm. So I called him on it. He said she was a friend of the captain! Her FB was filled with slutty pics!
Fast forward to July to our family vacation. He was On his phone 24/7 - he passed out drunk so of coarse I take a look - holy shit! Tinder, what’s app, FB and dick pics sent out as well.
I honestly don’t know where he finds the time!
They have serious problems and we can’t fix it.
I have wasted too much time going through phone records, emails, text numbers. It’s so stupid!!!!!!! We can’t trust them! We can’t!
Don’t fall for it! Try to see through the bullshit gaslighting!
Take care of yourself! I know it’s gotta be so hard with 2 weeks left. Look forward to after you have the baby-you will be stronger!!!
Thinking of you Kimberly!
Ann, I love how feisty you’ve become, you don’t sound like the same Ann I was talking to a few weeks ago. You sound strong and able to move forward with your boundaries Ann, were right behind you my love .. xx
ReplyDeleteWow! I can’t believe how utterly stupid my WH is.
ReplyDeleteHe’s been home since last Saturday. I have kept my distance - I don’t talk to him much - I didn’t get to pick up any sub jobs so I worked out every day - he drinks wine and stays up late so I didn’t have to deal with him much. I was busy with kids things and had an IC appt. on Friday. I slept in my daughters bunk bed. He was on his own for stuff I usually did - laundry, fetching wine - but he still ate our food witch pissed me off.
He started the conversation of getting a mediator so we can separate. I really didn’t want to talk to him about anything. I told him I went and saw a lawyer who is also a mediator last week already - since he went again to Peru to spend time with his girlfriend. He was annoyed because he wanted us to find one together and meet them together. Whatever - this firm seems like the best one because of their philosophy and their mission statement.
I don’t even go into the same room as him. I hang out upstairs at night while he is downstairs. He rented a movie last night and he watched with my daughter-I want to see it but no way am I sitting with him.
So I am out today just shopping a little for groceries and he texts me that he should leave today because he has thoughts of �� between us. I have no idea what emojis mean so I thought he was worried we would fight. Then he says it’s temptation - that it is on his mind between us and he can’t help it! He said he would keep his distance! I know for a fact he has a trip tomorrow and I am pretty sure he switches all his trips to go to Lima, Peru and that’s it!
How can he be so FUCKING stupid!!!!!!!! I told him that I am not tempted and to save it for his girlfriend. And I told him - “are you really that stupid? Why would you even bring that up? I think you can wait a few days until you see the Love of your life!”
I am just dumbfounded! I know I have been weak not too long ago - when I thought I could win him back - that he would pick me and try again with us. But - that is before he took off for a second time using his vacation days to go see her and also had trips to see her too.
He claims he went to see a counselor last Wednesday - I don’t even believe that. He probably went to see his lawyer or went to get papers to bring his girlfriend to the US. Who knows? I don’t believe anything he says!
I can’t sleep with him! That is a solid boundary! I couldn’t and I won’t! How can he think I would! I even told him that I know his girlfriend is influencing him in his decision to separate - I told him that I cannot look at social media any more and I won’t - I cancelled all my accounts and I just can’t look. - I would have a heart attack. But Last I looked he posted something that said something like - “Although we are thousands of miles apart, our souls are aligned like the moons force on the waves” or some bullshit. And she replied - Always Together! And he replied with hearts.
And he wants to Fuck me? When he just professed his soul to her?
I just don’t get it! I cannot get this mediation done soon enough! I will sub every day until I get the $.
Please give me some perspective you guys!!!!!
Ann,
DeleteYou don't need perspective. You have it already. He wants to have sex with you because he thinks he can. Or because he gets off thinking two women want him. Or whatever. But it is NOT because he wants to express his love/intimacy with you. This is a game in his twisted mind.
Keep doing exactly what you're doing. You are GREAT. I know it's hard. But you're doing it and you're doing it beautifully.
Keep your distance. Don't engage in conversation. He's trying to control things -- right down to who does the mediation -- and you're making it clear that you're playing by different rules. This will escalate in his mind the more he realizes that this is for real -- that he's created this and that you're moving on without him. But that is not your problem, it is his. You just say focussed on you.
You did the right thing telling him 'no way'. But I think I might see to it that the OW see's his correspondence to you. She clearly is not the love of his life.
DeleteYes, I wondered about that too. If he's so in love with this Peruvian wannabe-poet, then why is he trying to get into bed with you? Might be a question she wants an answer to as well. Though I'm hesitant to stir up drama. I think the healthier thing is to walk away, knowing full well that this woman is going to get exactly what she deserves, sooner or later.
DeleteAnon. And Elle,
DeleteI could contact her I guess. But It would just stir up drama-and I could really give a shit about her and I don’t want to think about her!! She will get exactly what she deserves eventually - as Elle said. I know
he has other women in Peru - and everywhere - she’s not the only one for sure.
He lies to me and everyone - her included. I think he tells her that when he sees the kids, he stays at a friends house. I doubt she knows that he is here in the same house with me. It is only a matter of time.
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ReplyDeleteAnn - I recently sent the OW a text with the sentiments of "he's all yours" ... and I alluded to the renewed attention I was getting ... she replied back with something that did nothing for me. It was very legalese and just confirmed what I'd always suspected which is she's done this before ... she'll do this again ... and my husband was no special thing - which I don't know may have made things more bearable.
DeleteAnn, I would follow what your attorney and therapist recommends to you at this point. I think it is important to continue to keep your best interest in mind. I love how you are sticking with you attorney/mediator instead of his way of choosing together. You are being so strong and I can hear the shift. I think focusing on you and keeping your distance seems to be working.
DeleteI think that is such a hard but important realization that there are others, he is lying about everything and lying to her too. This is who they become. I realized it after over a year past dday when I kept asking the same questions. I think it was something my husband said but I realized while he was in this mode he lied about everything. Some things major and others things minor. He got so far out of line that I can see why he could not give me any black and white answers. And he had no idea when he started either of his two affairs. He did not care about them or value those relationships either. I know in my husband's life nothing was honest, transparent, authentic or genuine. And he told himself whatever he needed to hear to make it through each day.
Keep up all of your hard work!!
Aasaahhhhh!!!!! So he leaves last Sunday. I don’t text or anything. I think I sent one text in a throughout reply to a bunch of crap he texted me while he was home. I said that I would only contact him if I needed to - he could contact the kids all on his own.
ReplyDeleteSo late one night he texts:
Tell me.
Should I leave everything behind?
Should I look to you?
Should I start again and think of me and you?
Is he serious?!?!?
I was SO Mad! I wasn’t touched or hopeful or anything! Just this feeling of dread. Like he is screwing with my head or something!
I texted him back -
Tell you what?
I told him to post this conundrum as a poem on his Instagram and Facebook and see how many likes he got.
Or - to ask his girlfriend when he Fucks her on his next trip and see what she thinks while your souls are entwined.
I told him to figure it out when we are separated.
Why why why would he say that when he’s been drilling it in my head that we need to separate because we are hurting the kids!? It’s not about us! And it’s not because he has someone!
He doesn’t make any sense! I hate this! I shouldn’t have responded at all I guess!
I just want to be free of his BS for once and for all.
Sorry, Ann, that sounds miserable. He sounds confused and lost, but that is for him to sort out. It’s not okay for him to torture you as he vascillates between staying or going. I wish I had great advice to offer, but all I can say is focus on what is best for you. And I can offer hugs 💕
DeleteAnn - it sounds to me like he's used to having his ego stroked by both sides of the fence. Kudos to you for not giving him what he wants!
DeleteNow ... if he wants to whole heartedly make a go of this ... he'll figure it out! And you won't have to stroke his ego to get him to do what he should be doing.
Gawd. These men! Such insecure little ninnies who can't self sooth. As the mom of 3 boys (almost) ... I really REALLY hope that I don't have to ever have a son who ends up like their dad. I'd probably feel the need to take them out behind the woodshed (so to speak) ...
He told me that the reason he texted that was to confirm that I hated him - that my response back proved his suspicion that I hated him. That mediation will be hard because I hate him!?
ReplyDeleteWhat?
I asked him - what if I said yes! Leave it all and come back to me! He said he would have said NO! What?!
And - he wanted to show that I am not the only one hurting?!
What?!
None of that makes any sense!
I think his girlfriend texted it to see if he was for real-or that he texted her my response. Either way - what an asshole for texting something like that - and not be sincere!
I will never respond to anything he says or texts again!
I don’t believe anything he says or texts!