I’m going to make the radical suggestion that sometimes a
managed separation is the right thing. A separation is scary. It may be
one of the hardest, bravest things you will ever do. It may nor may not be the thing that saves
your marriage, but if you put the work in, I’m pretty sure it will save you.
I’m not advocating separation for everyone post D-Day. If
you have a remorseful spouse who is doing the work, it's reasonable to
remain together and work this through. It’s a valid choice and being together
gives you opportunities to reconnect and communicate. There are, however, situations where
a separation might give you the time and space to breathe and think about what
the next right thing is for you.
When might you consider a separation?
•When your spouse continues to blatantly
continue the affair. This is incredibly harmful to you. You are already traumatized and in PTSD
high alert. Having the person who harmed you continue just causes more trauma, to the point where our
spouse himself becomes a trigger.
•When your spouse, after attempting reconciliation, resumes contact and doesn’t disclose this to you or resumes
the full affair. More pain and trauma
for you.
•When your spouse violates any of your rules for
reconciliation: refuses counseling, refuses transparency, refuses to
disclose contact, continues inappropriate friendships, lies about where
they are or what they are doing. Whatever your requirements are. I’m not taking
about a mistake or momentary lapse. I’m talking about willful, ongoing,
intentional violations of your terms.
•When your spouse is gaslighting you, manipulating you or
children (if you have them), starting fights and arguments and then shifting
blame onto you. Do you feel like everything is always your fault? Do you come
out of conversations wondering what the hell just happened? You may be
experiencing gaslighting.
•When you are a long way out from D-Day, but your spouse has
not done the work and is more interested in sweeping things under the rug than
dealing with your pain. And you feel nothing but the plain of lethal flatness.
The bottom line is that you are in pain and while you are in
pain you can’t manage other aspects of your life. A managed separation may give
you relief from the immediate pain so you can sort out the larger
issues. It may also be the wake-up call
for your wayward spouse. Enough is enough, you say. Here’s a dose of what life
will be like without me. Sometimes this works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Taking
care of yourself and getting you out of harm’s way is the primary motivation
behind choosing a separation.
There are many different types of separations that can range
from In-House, Psychological Separations to Physical, Predivorce Separations
(the book Taking Space: How to use separation to explore the future of yourrelationship explains these options in clear language and provides a
guide to help you navigate a separation.) If you and your spouse are trying to
work things out but are stuck, an in-house separation might give you room to
breathe and send a clear message that he needs to step up. If your spouse is
still fully engaged in destructive behaviors, getting him out from under your
roof so he can’t cause new, daily pain, might be the option you need. Consider
seeing a marriage or family counselor together to help guide you through a
separation process, especially if children are involved and you will be
physically separating.
My ex and I had been seeing a marriage counselor. She was phenomenal and if my ex had not been lying about his intentions and had really done the work she suggested, we might not be divorced. Deciding to
separate was scary and not easy for me. It was six abusive, ambivalent, roller
coaster months post D-Day before I finally told him he needed to move out. And
even then, he manipulated me into it because he was too much of a coward to
just leave and own what he was doing. We continued to meet with the marriage
counselor and she became our separation manager. She helped us outline how we’d
manage communication, the kids, schedules and the type of separation we would
be doing. It was to be a constructive separation – in which we each took
physical time apart to find ourselves, work on our own issues and break old
patterns of communications and behavior so we could potentially come back
together in a healthy way. He moved out three months after I told him he needed
to leave. This was the time frame we planned with the counselor and allowed him
time to find a place and for us to plan together how we were going to present
this to our kids.
You can decide if you still go to counseling during the
separation, with the purpose of working on your relationship or, less often, with
the purpose of managing any conflict or housekeeping items. We continued for
four months until he announced that he wanted a divorce (this is another story
and includes some of the classics of Stupid Sh!t Cheaters Say.) We started
working with a mediator toward divorce.
During the separation, I really took to heart the
counselor’s advice to dig into my stuff. I want to talk about that too, but it will come in its own post. The point I am trying to make
today is that a separation may be the scariest step you take in taking charge
of your own health, life and future. Not all separations end in divorce,
especially if both members of the couple can acknowledge their faults,
communicate honestly and are willing to work to resolve issues. If you are
working on this on your own, turn your focus from the relationship on to you.
Work on your own self. This will have enormous pay offs whether you remain
together or eventually part.
Note: please be
advised that depending on the state or country where you live, there may or may
not be a legal status for separation. Please consult with a lawyer, if you have
any questions about what your rights are. If you believe you may be in physical
danger in the event of separation, please contact a local women’s shelter, or
in the US, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1−800−799−7233 for advice and assistance.
This is so spot on ss1, following d day 2 I knew a separation was what I needed to help me gain some control of the situation. Best thing I could have done for me and the kids. This separation lasted much longer than anticipated and 18 months down the line i have moved onto my next right step which is divorce. I feel I have to initiate the divorce because he won’t, he doesn’t want to take responsibility for his actions, which is fine I can no longer play his mind games and I will take control yet again and get the result I want. There is gaslighting just tonight he’s told me that if I pursue with the divorce he will move away etc etc, that’s his decision I cannot control what he does, never could, it’s another way of him gaslighting me. I’m not getting sucked in I will continue with a divorce for all the right reasons and there are many. Thank you ss1 for helping those of us who will be walking this path it really does help. I’ll cross each bridge as I go.. xxx
ReplyDeleteSam A, Crossing each bridge as you get there is a good way to go. And I'm glad you recognize his threats as simply attempts to manipulate you into behaving differently. How he responds is up to him, and it's good that you see that now.
DeleteThank you Elle, I’ve learnt from the best : ) .. the best teacher anyone could hAve xx
DeleteI didn’t think I could contribute to this post but I’m adding my experience. His affair began because we were separated for work reasons as well as family needs. That said he had to leave me during the early months post dday again for work. These temporary separations were driving us apart and yet at the same time pulling us back together. She wouldn’t leave us alone even though he made it apparent that he no longer wanted anything else to do with her. During this time, I was happy he wasn’t available for her to continue to pursue and he was relieved not to have to deal with her at all. Those were some of the hardest months, year or two of our marriage. Hearing how others have struggled and manage to survive regardless of if they stay together or divorce is very beneficial to each of us and I for one am glad I have managed to survive thanks to the many wounded warriors that are brave enough to share this pain! Cudos to Still Standing 1 for great insight! Sending hugs to all of us!
ReplyDeleteI am less than two months past DDay and I seriously go back and forth about whether to leave every single day. Today was hard. Yesterday I decided I would allow my H to massage me and go down on me and all day today I’ve felt this nagging guilt that I made the wrong choice allowing him back in. And I went from feeling like I can stay yesterday to feeling like there’s no way I can do this today.
ReplyDeleteThe interesting thing your post brings up for me is that he is doing everything right right now. He is finally telling the truth. He admitted to me a few days ago that the affair hadn’t ended prior to dday, which is exactly what I expected all along. I told him about gaslighting and that he needs to come clean with any post dday lies, and he told me that they had sex about 20 times, not the 10 he had previously disclosed. On the surface these details don’t matter. I mean, if He had said one time it would be a big deal but I was already grappling with the fact that he kept going back, and back, and back. But I think it’s that he was still lying that messed me up. And now he’s telling me the truth and says there is no more that he needs to come clean about.
He has broken off contact and I have all his passwords. As I’ve said in a previous post, I am in contact with the Ow, an 18 year previous employee, who has a history of child sexual abuse but felt loved by my H. I feel it’s important for me that her well being not be further damaged by my Hs actions so I’m checking in on her and giving her periodic updates and support.
He is FINALLY beginning to start processing the damage he had done to everyone. He feels like a big “piece of shit” about what he has done to me and our marriage. He has finally accepted that their 23 year age difference is problematic and troubling. That her history of sex abuse adds a disturbing/fucked up element to his actions. I wrote a list of all of the justifications he used the other day and told him he needs to break down every one. I filled 2 notecards. He is thinking about it all and we will talk about it this week. He clearly feels awful and apologizes every day, multiple times.
He tells me that all he wants is for me to love him again and it’s the on thing I can’t promise him right now.
So I’m still here. I’m in this position where I really feel like I’d be gone if I didn’t have two small kids. The thought of taking them away from their Dad tears me apart. I feel like I owe it to them to at least try to reconcile.
My husband and I have been together for 18 years. He has always been hard working, kind, fun, affectionate, funny, supportive and giving. I believe that fundamentally he is a good man. He is a good dad. He is my best friend.
But he fucked an 18 year old sex abuse survivor 20 times. And lied to me and manipulated me for 7 months. While I was at home taking care of our babies. I don’t know if I can ever get over this.
NorCal,
DeleteWhat your husband did was reprehensible. And it's going to be tough to get through. But your'e also still incredibly raw, time wise. Give yourself time to digest all this. Two months is often still a "shock" stage.
There's no rush. Not making a choice is still a choice. And it's a perfectly reasonable one. Be still. The next right step will become clearer.
Norcal, This is the best advice I ever got and it was from Elle. I wanted to just leave since at that time when I was in so much pain that felt like the better path. I agree it is so early. It took me a full year to process and deal with the pain. Then at a year it really focused on my husband dealing with it all sine he felt I was in an okay spot. He really kept this tough facade while I was coping. We are almost at 3 years and I will say I feel great but he still fights the shame and sadness of what he did. It has been a ton of work for us both individually and as a couple. And lots of ups and downs some real and some in my mind.
DeleteI too decided early on most of all for my kids to give it my best effort. I kept my promise and watched my husband to see if his actions matched his words.
NorCal, good thoughts here from Elle and Hopeful30 and from Sam A below. You don't need to decide anything today or any time soon. Take it day by day and know your emotions will be all over the place.
DeleteAnd staying for the kids is an OK place to start. You have as much time as you need to work this through and see if he makes the effort to dig in to his own issues and how he could do this thing. And you can watch and wait and catch your breath and find your feet. Its going to take some time. But that is good news in a way. You have all the time you need to figure this out. No rush to be anywhere. Just breath.
Thanks for the support. I have been clear that I haven’t made a decision yet. He says I can always decide to leave later, and I feel like leaving now is too final. I’m not ready to make that choice. Yesterday he told me that he doesn’t want to hear when I’m having a day when I think I need to leave, he said he can’t bear it, only to tell him if I’m definitely going to do it. I think me telling him that I’m thinking about it is a form of me trying to punish him.
DeleteAnd Sam, in terms of him loving himself, I think it’s complicated. He is taking some ownership ( I say some because I think he’s still holding on to some justifications) so he feels awful and guilty and ashamed. He also knows he is a good person and does a lot of good so he is confused. He has a lot of self pity and says he is on edge and feels like running away and hiding. He had significant childhood trauma with his mother dying of breast cancer and having to move to the other side of the world with his dad, who is loving and tried but is erratic and angry and was not his primary caregiver until he needed to be. I have not understood how much his lonely childhood and significant loss affected our relationship until now. He is in therapy but we live in a super rural location and have to kids <5 and a small business so it’s hard to get there regularly. He has been reluctant to open the pain of the past but he’s starting to see how it’s all relevant and I am insistent that he continues therapy.
The hardest part for him to own is how disturbing his relationship with her is. I kept telling him to look at it objectively and he seemed baffled at how to do that. I said to imagine if certain people that know all of us found out and how they’d all hate him forever. Think of the reasons why. That took him aback and he’s starting to get it. He is terrified that people will find out. I am too. I feel like I’d be judged just as harshly for staying with him.
As for the OW, she seems pretty good. She’s busy w college and work, she’s mad at my husband but still thinks he’s a good guy and she says she respects me for trying to work it out. She feels guilty for her role but I forgive her. She has a hope we can all be friends one day. I’m most upset with him for breaking her trust and she is totally unfazed by that part. She said she doesn’t trust people anyways and it feels pointless for her to imagine if she would trust him if they’d never had sex. To me that’s just heartbreaking. He was one of her main supporters before all of this and he failed her, just like all the other adults in her life that couldn’t protect her from her dad. She is smart and is analyzing this whole ordeal and what it means in the context of her abuse and sexuality. She thinks she uses sex as a form of punishment. She is taking a break from it and focusing on school. She is a poor kid who got a $50k scholarship to a really good school and she is very driven. As fucked up as everything is, she seems ok.
I feel like there is a good shot at redemption and I know my H is trying to do what he needs to to pick up the pieces. I call him on his bullshit and pity parties when he slips.
My big words to live by right now are Strength and Grace and I’m doing pretty damn good with that. In the beginning I thought only a weak woman would stay in this situation but now I see it’s so much harder to stay and face it and try to forgive.
I appreciate you all taking the time to read my story and offer support and advice. I am looking for a therapist but might have to drive a few hours to find a good one living way out here. You are filling a gap for me right now.
It sounds like you are in a really great place for how little time has passed. My husband is very in touch with his feelings and himself as a person and this is really hard for him to process, cope and face. I honestly do not think he will ever get over what he did. I will say too that he sees everything very different now at 3 years past dday vs the time right after dday through even the first year. He had broken up with both ow 15 months before dday too so he was not in any relationship on dday. But he honestly just repressed what he did trying to make himself feel like he was the good guy or not that bad.
DeleteI read about you saying he does not want to hear you saying you might leave him and you thinking it is a punishment. I think that is all in how and when it is said. I know for me after dday I decided he could and should hear what I am thinking. I do try to not say it in a mean or hurtful way but I am direct. My therapist totally supports this and thinks it is healthy. One suggestion that worked really well for us was we set one time a week where we would talk about the affairs, us, him, me etc. I would journal/write every day. Before our time I would look back through my notes and see if there were any running themes and that would help me focus on what was bothering me. In the end it helped me stay on track and focus on what I needed answers or support on. He knew it was coming so he did not feel like every time he came home or into the room he would be hit with it. And it really was not something I wanted to talk about all the time. The rest of the week we spent as much time together as possible. We scaled back all of our commitments to just work, exercise and taking care of our kids for the first year. He is in the mental health field so he has a lot of professional knowledge. He has told me he did not know if he could change or be the husband I expected/needed/wanted or even he knew he should be. He minimized everything on dday he says to protect me. Well I knew it was not the full truth. Dday 2 hit and that was much harder. It was not necessarily new information but he had minimized how long the affairs lasted etc. For me it was not the details but the lying. That was hard for him to comprehend. He gave himself six months to make real changes and commit to us. He found it easy once he started and realized how happy he could be. He thought this would never happen. This has been a long process with a ton of work on both of our parts. I will say he had to really work to not be defensive and listen and hear me even when it made him feel bad. My therapist said this is important for me to be heard and it is what he has to deal with. He was given 25 years to do the right thing and all the freedom in the world and he threw that away. So now it is my way and what I need.
NorCal, you are doing great, from your post although you may not feel it right now. Your ability to sympathize with the OW blew my away. I don't think I could go as far as you have. Your compassion is overwhelming. My H also took advantage of a disabled woman with Parkinson's. I look at him and wonder WTF, who in the hell are you? Even 4.5 years out I still think that is terrible. He even helped her fill out disability papers, gave her money to pay bills etc... felt sorry for her. Then he says all he wanted was on call sex. What type of person does that to another person. I still keep my guard up. It took me 1.8 years to decide to stay. I had one foot out of the door the entire time and he knew it. He knew it for sure. He is still afraid I will leave him. Yes, it is harder to stay, much harder. Staying really helped me become me, more of me, devoted to me and just about everything else you can think of me. I learned that is not selfish at all.
DeleteHopeful, thanks for telling me your story, it’s interesting how they try to minimize it when we are demanding the truth. My H said he just didn’t want to hurt me any more than he already had, but once I explained that his lies were so damaging he got it. And he saw how I slid back when I got the new truth. We are taking the advice of setting up times to talk about it. I have been bombarding him since New Year’s Day and he is definitely afraid of me lol. We need a break most days. We are still fighting about other stuff, mostly he triggers me with any criticism. It’s interesting how the affair brings that up for me. He was very critical of me when it was going on, I see now he was pushing me away and blaming me so he could live with his actions. But now if he tells me how to load the frickin dishwasher properly I’m like “no, you don’t get to be critical of me about stupid shit!” I finally put it all together the other day and he apologized for making me feel this way and for failing to see the bigger picture.
DeleteLLP, your story is definitely similar to mine. I find it so difficult to process his ability to take advantage of someone. He explained that he didn’t see it that way at the time. They talked about their age difference. She said his age didn’t bother her and that was enough for him to sweep it under the rug, not think deeply about why an 18 year old would want a relationship with w a married 41 year old Dad. He said he didn’t think about her history impacting her decisions to have sex w him. I’m like WHAT?!? Hellooooooo?!?! He seems to be getting it now and has lots of shame and regret. How does your H feel about what he did now, years later? My H says he will feel awful about it for the rest of his life and he hopes he won’t have to think about it all the time 20 years down the road. He says that all of this will make him less judgmental and more compassionate towards people who fuck up. I get what he’s saying but I hope he regrets this for the rest of his life.
Good post again SS1 Separation was almost the furthest thing from my mind after D-Day 1. I was sure my H had to move out, despite the fact that I wanted "us" to work out. Our therapist at the time thought that the only way to stay together was to work together and i don't regret that we did stay together. a boundary set was that if he strayed again he was moving out--no discussion. So when that happened, and i found out about it 2.5 years later we were separated for the good part of 6 months and it was the best thing we could have done. He got to see that I was dead serious, and he also got to miss me, and since he had really nothing else going on in his life he got to go to 2-3 AA and SA meetings a DAY. I got to see that I would be JUST FINE (if quite a bit more tired) alone. We've been back together about 14 months now and things are much much better--not perfect, not close to perfect, but a hell of a lot better than it was. he's not screwing around and although he is still too much in his head and into his own projects, I like living with him again. Honestly if I had to do it again, I would have made the separation longer and given us both time to do more work alone.
ReplyDeleteSteam , I love that you guys are working it out. I often still have day dreams about what that story would have been like and second guess my decision to go through with the divorce. But then he does stuff and I'm like "oh. ... yeah." And then I STILL second guess and try to pick apart what it would be like dealing with whatever it was if we were together. I try not to spend to long there because it is crazy making. But I'm a sucker for what I think of as a love story (not the BS they sell us on TV and movies) just the real, messy kind, where real people love each other through hell and back.
DeleteSs1 I do exactly the same, I too second guess my decision to go through with the divorce but then I tell myself that I must trust my judgement. I was in turmoil the other night worrying over whether I was doing the right thing I got out of bed and started doing a like/dislike page on him let’s just say the dislike side filled the page whilst the like page didn’t even get halfway. I know I’m doing the right thing but sometimes our heads and hearts plays games with us and we have to pull back and trust ourselves. I’m not thinking what it would be like if we reconciled as that isn’t an option anymore. I’m ploughing forward not easy though. Thanks ss1 xxx
DeleteThe subtle difference in my H is that he always treated ME well. Never a hard or unkind word--i mean that literally. His issues were ALWAYS his issues. HE was an alcoholic, HE was a sexaholic HE never blamed me once for any of this. Yes how he treated our relationship behind my back for much too long was abhorrent. HIS issues are still his procrastination and OCD, but he STILL does and never stopped doing kind things for me. I have moments I want to slap him sill still and If i thought hard enough I could find reasons to go...but eh--as i sit here not seeing a shower since yesterday, in my harem pants and hoodie, unwashed hair in a pony tail, the house a MESS-so could he. but instead he's at the store buying, as requested, grass seed and groceries.
DeleteThank you for the open sharing. I am going through the separation stage and gaslit almost every moment by H. My only child, a boy, is very much attached to his dad so believe me, everyone in the family is telling me to give the marriage another try. He cheated twice and recently I caught him trying to purchase used panties online. He claimed the panties are for me and to enhance our sex life. How sick is that. With zero family support, I only have God to help me. And reading what you lovely ladies have shared, it keeps my spirit going. God bless!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
Delete"Everyone in the family" needs to butt out and give you the time and space to determine what's next. I know it's hard. But it's your life to live. And you get to choose who deserves a place in your life as a partner. If everyone in your family wants to harangue somebody about their choices, perhaps they should be directing it at your husband and his ridiculous lies about "used panties". It isn't your sex life that needs enhancing. It's his relationship to the truth.
Anon, 2/19 you have us too. Your sone can still have his relationship with his dad and the quality of that relationship is up to his father. You get to choose whether or not a relationship is healthy for you, not "everyone in the family." And your son will benefit from a healthy you, who is not in a damaging, co-dependent relationship. The panties thing is absolutely absurd. Has he asked for a chance to reconcile? What are your terms for that? Are either of you in counseling? You obviously can't make him to anything, but if you can get yourself a therapist or get a peer counselor through ICN, you might feel a little less on your own in this. Do you have your own family you can reach out to? A trusted friend? Don't deal with this alone. And keep coming back here. Hugs and love.
DeleteHi Still Standing 1
DeleteAfter the discovery of the 2nd affair, he begged me for a reconciliation. We went for a spiritual trip as a family and I learned to forgive him as he is a wonderful father. The discovery of his fetish is a repeated act which he promised to stop after thd reconciliation. I have told him to seek marriage therapy and see a psychiatrist to deal with his issues. He refused and placed the blame on me for not helping him to recover from his depression. The letter from the court arrived today and finally I am taking the major step to assert on my deserving respect and to find myself again. As I type this, I feel my world crashing down on me. But I know slowly I will find my way out of this darkness. It is a stigma to divorce in our families.
Anon, I am so sorry it must be so hard. You know what is best for you. And you have done the right things, given him chances etc. No one else can know or understand what you have gone through. And it is so hard to be around judgmental people who really have no idea or do not try to understand.Thinking of you!
DeleteGod bless you and a big hug. I really need one having kept silent about my problems. This blog has been wonderful in keeping me sane: that the issues are not mine, it is his.
DeleteI know I need to separate ASAP! I just don't know how to do it. I have an appointment tomorrow with a lawyer while my WH is in Peru with his girlfriend, which apparently shouldn't bother me or affect me because we have been distant and separate for a long time in our marriage.
ReplyDeleteI am dealing with SS1 points 1 and 4 big time. I don't know if any of you read my posts in the Gas lighting section a couple of weeks ago. I was trying to be so strong. To disengage and to be busy, do my own things, to not get trapped into my H's ploys to make me loose it.
I totally fucked up. I was doing so good - but last Wednesday - once I found out he was going to leave on Thursday to go to Lima to see her - I lost it! I told him we needed to talk before he goes, that we need the separation figured out before he goes again. That I would try one more time if he got some help. He ended up staying - our college daughter was to come home Friday for the weekend and he hadn't seen her in a couple of months. We agreed to talk. We never really did - he said some bullshit - that I would be happier without him, that I would get half his salary.....that he needed help and he was not a happy person. I know that! We need a plan and a date to do the separation - not just talk about it.
And then I stupidly slept with him because it is the only thing that feels good in this mess...So I completely fucked up. Now I get attached again to the fantasy of him picking me and not leaving to go see her! Of coarse he left yesterday to go to Lima, Peru and he is with her now.
So I send him a bunch of texts once he is on the flight - that we need the separation - why can't he just cool it with his girlfriend until we figure out the separation and things settle down. That he only thinks of himself and his stupid ass girlfriend when our marriage has to end and we need to figure things out.
I don't know. I really hope this lawyer can help shed some light on everything.
This is not where I wanted to be! I feel like such a failure when I was doing so well last week.
How do I get back on track? I told him that I was taking a BIG Step back from him. I will not sleep with him any more and I need to just get away from him. But - of coarse he still wants to come here and see the kids.
I just can't fail again! I have to do this for the kids and for me. I can't live with this constant anxiety and chaos. I can't.
Ann...take a breath. You didn't "fail". I want you to reframe this whole experience. You are drowning in pain. And so when throws what looks like a lifeline, you're going to grab it. That's understandable. With hindsight, you can see it isn't a lifeline at all. But, when we know better, we do better. You're learning as you go.
DeleteSo please...be gentle with yourself. When you notice that voice in your head berating you for doing something wrong or for "failing", tell it to shut up. That you're doing your best.
And if you know you feel weak when there's the chance to have sex with him, and you don't want to, then next time create a situation in which you're not alone with him, or he stays at a hotel or whatever. Remove the temptation.
But...go to the lawyer. Your husband is telling you exactly who he is and what you can expect. Someone who is unhappy and mixed up and willing to hurt you rather than face his own pain. That's who he is. And you deserve to be free of that.
Talk to the lawyer. Come up with a separation plan. Don't hand so much power to your husband. Just move ahead with what YOU want.
And take it step by step. That's all. Don't worry about ten steps down the road. One at a time. And when you slip up, forgive yourself, and figure out how to do things differently next time.
Ann, you’ve pretty much answered your own questions. Yes you have had a setback but don’t let that stop you moving forward. See the lawyer and get something in writing. Stop sleeping with him because he thinks he can get what he wants when he wants from you and the ow, she might let him but you my dear can put a stop to it. Yes it’s hard and I’ve done it myself, it feels like a good idea at the time but I bloody regretted it the second it was over. And my h seemed to think all was forgiven when I slept with him, for some men it is there feeble way of getting back into the good books. I’m a human with feelings not a piece of meat.
DeleteAnn one day at a time, your going to be just fine .. next right step!!!
Xx
Ann, please be kind and patient with yourself. If you were listening to a friend tell this story would you tell her she totally fucked up? I don't think so. I think you'd see she is doing the best she can in a shitty situation. And you are learning as you go. You will do better next time.
DeleteThe whole "you'll be happier without me" is such a cop out and a manipulation all rolled in to one. "Feel sorry for ME. I'm the one in all the pain. Blah blah blah."
The lawyer will give you insight into your options and tell you if there is a legal separation status where you live.
You are on track and you are doing remarkably well considering the upheaval and pain you are dealing with.
I'm not making assumptions, but I am going to throw in some advice from my own experience at that difficult time, if you have alcohol at all, just stop for the time being. It impairs judgement and makes the emotional roller coaster even stronger. You'll be better able to resist emotional hooks and the urge to grasp at sex. I cut out alcohol completely during this difficult time and was a lot more stable because of it. I'm just throwing that out there in case you have a tendency to medicate with it like I do.
And Ann, what have you failed at? I see no failure here. I see a brave woman, stepping her way out of the chaos one step at a time. Take a deep breath. Hugs and love, SS1
Elle, SS1 and Sam A.,
DeleteYou saved me again! Thank You!!
My H texted me yesterday. He keeps saying the same stupid things.
I don't know what you want - you keep telling me you want a separation as I do.
I would not think you care what I do or who I am with, we have been apart and hated each other for so long.
You will be happier without me.
Tell me what you want me to do.
I don't want you mad - I am still surprised you're mad at me....
How can a smart person that can fly a Boeing 767 be so stupid. I just don't get it.
He wants to separate, but he doesn't want to not come to this house and see the kids. I know in my state - he can't live here, we can't live together. He won't go along with it. I know he won't.
I didn't text him back. Like Elle said - nothing I say will register to him. He is not capable of understanding how I feel. There is no point in trying to explain anything to him.
I realize he is a man of no honor, no moral character, no integrity, no empathy and no compassion. Nothing I say to him will make any difference.
I am getting ready for the lawyer appointment. I know this is the right next step. I will get all the information I can and go from there.
Thanks again all you guys!!! I wouldn't have made it to today without all your help!!!
Ann, Please do not beat yourself up. You are so strong. Look at it as something to learn from. This is all so complicated and it is easy to get caught up. I think not answering his texts is smart. He has tunnel vision and keeps saying the same things. I am glad you are meeting with a lawyer. I know for me getting professional/technical information is so helpful and having a plan in place always makes me feel better/gives me breathing room. I totally understand your statement about how can he fly a plane but act this way. I think the same thing except my husband actually is in the mental health field helping people work through infidelity, marriage therapy, among all these other issues. It shocks me sometimes how he can be able to help others, have so much professional training but then do what he did. He still does not have any explanation except that he was selfish and entitled. It is puzzling. He has also told me he told himself whatever he needed to in order so he did not see himself as the person he had become. A liar, cheat and not a good husband or father. He turned me into the worst person ever.
DeleteKeep us updated!
Hi Hopeful 30
DeleteLynn here. Realised I forgot to leave my name in my earlier posts...my mind in a mess. You replied to my entry on the H having a fetish. Just like you, the H is in the field of preventing marriage from breaking up. His dad is a respected pastor in our community. He is the epitome of the prodigal son: handsome, fit, well loved etc etc. Our marriage on the surface is perfect. But...no one knows the sufferings behind closed doors. As of now, I am seen as the evil one. Giving up on a 15 year old marriage when he refuses to. But I am drained. And yes, just like you, he turned me into the worst person ever.
I met with the lawyer today! It was just an initial consultation - but I really liked him and got some good information. We went over my situation, didn't get too deep but he got the idea about our marriage past and what is happening now. We were going over Custody and he said - "that is easy - he's a Pilot - Done."
DeleteI told him that he still wants to come to the house and stay and see the kids and he said - "Well that's going to change". And the best part was at the end of the meeting - he said, "it's a lot, you have a lot of options, a lot of choices...I know it doesn't seem like it - but all this - all this goes from him to you." And when I said that I really liked him - and his firm - that I would use him for our Mediator (I think that is the best way to go) what if my husband doesn't want to use you because I picked you - he said, "well, tell him that you want to use us - and if he doesn't - you will hire me as your attorney instead." I could tell that he saw that I was a little beaten down and he wanted to show me what I could do.
It will be interesting when I talk to my H about it. I don't think he ever thought I would go see a lawyer.
I just want to start it - the mediation. I want him to not be able to stay here, I want him to hurt. I know that is probably mean and cruel - but I want it all to become real for him.
I did text him back. I told him what I wrote before in this thread. I said that she could have him and good luck to her.
I ended with:
I wanted to try one more time with us. I told you that! I wanted you to get help. I wanted you to pick me for Fucking once! That is why I was raging and in agony.
But, I realized that you would not put the hard work into trying - just for me and our family. You will never go to counseling and face all your problems. It would be too hard for you.
So - instead - you picked Her - the easy way out.
Form that - it finally registered that I was hoping for something from someone who was not there anymore.
So My next step is to work toward our separation.
Ann - BRAVO to you!!! I'm so glad that you found someone who is on the side of the spouse. Truthfully, most are. Especially when they determine that you are NOT trying to take the spouse to the cleaners ... they'll fight harder to make sure you get what you deserve.
DeleteI think the hardest thing to come to terms with is that the fantasy that we create in our heads about how they can change isn't real. That they don't want us as much as we want them. That we put all of us into something that didn't deserve it.
But we're not less because of this. We're far, far better for it. We gave. We worked. We tried. No one can say otherwise later on.
Big hugs to you!
Ann, Sounds like you had a great first meeting and I like how your lawyer sounds. I love the support that was given and always good when they suggest what you can say when challenged. They see so much all the time and make sure to use him as a resource. It sounds like you are on the right track. I am sure it will be hard but you are so strong and are taking the right steps for you and your girls.
DeleteAnn, I'm already a fan of your lawyer. I know after I consulted one, it felt so good to know that I had someone in MY corner and who would fight for my best interests. It was very important to me that the whole thing not be contentious, for my own sake and the kids. I didn't want anyone to feel like they had to choose sides. At the same time, I earned every penny I'm getting in alimony and it helped to have someone remind me that I deserved to claim what was right and fair and to make sure I wasn't taken advantage of or misled. Took a lot of fear out of it.
DeleteHopeful30 is 100% right in that these lawyers have seen it all over the years and this one seems to have a reasonable and sympathetic approach. Good for you Ann!
Yes- it’s great that I saw the lawyer, got some information-but it’s all so messed up still. I can’t do anything. It’s $5,000 to hire this mediator-flat fee. Unlimited meetings to get it done. I don’t have $5,000. I can’t make my H come up with $5,000 even though he claims that he wants a separation.
DeleteI’m still stuck. He came home yesterday. Didn’t say anything about what I wrote. That I wanted to try once more and for him to pick me but knew it was pointless because he won’t get help-he doesn’t want to give up his girlfriend.
We agreed to switch sleeping on the couch. I think he’ll probably just leave after tomorrow - because he can. - we celebrated our daughters bday this weekend and she went back to college. He seems annoyed at me - like I am the one with the problem - even though I’m not doing anything! All I did was tell him I’m in pain because I wanted him to pick me- and because he didn’t - I’m done. like we are just supposed to be friends and let all this go or something and I shouldn’t be bothered by any of it.
I'll talk to him tomorrow and tell him that I saw the lawyer. Maybe say that if he isn’t going to try with me-which I know he isn’t- fhat we need to save for the separation in 6 months or something.
I just hate him. I hate him so much for not even giving a shit about me and my feelings at all. Like I’m the enemy. I Fucking hate him. It makes me sick to my stomach to see him hugging my daughter when they have no idea what he is doing and who he is.
I almost want to get in a fight and have him hit me or something so I can call the police and he can’t come here anymore. I don’t care if he looses his job at this point.
I hate him. I’ll never win. Never. He’ll always have the upper hand: and have everything. I hate him.
There was a post on Facebook a couple of days ago that I read about a man who left his wife for someone else. He talked about how it felt to be with her, the excitement, how his family and kids all loved her and how these new choices had made him feel for a short time. But then he goes on to say how they never married, how much he missed with his kids while they were growing up. How he should have put that energy into being a great husband to his wife then because she ended up moving on and someone took his place and she seemed happier than she had ever been with him. How it hurt that his kids loved this guy too. This made me think about our marriage and what happened. I kicked him out the day I found out. His friends and the people we both worked with told him not to look back if this cow was what he really wanted. That his kids would adjust to everything. I hated these people. Most of them I never even met before how could they judge me and our marriage in a way that they did. Then I found out later that all of them had destroyed their own marriages before and were now with the person that they had left their spouses for. My husband came home the next day crying and asking for forgiveness for what he had done to us. His kids and I were not going to adjust to life without him. It was and still is on going work in progress even 2 years out but, I know have his hard work to show in how we have rebuilt our marriage. That night that we were apart was probably the worst night of both of our lives and one that we will never forget.
ReplyDeleteIt's a familiar story, isn't it? My dad told me about how he'd watch these other guys at work leave their wives for their girlfriends. And how, a few years later, they were complaining about the exact same things that they'd blamed their wives for. In other words, the face had changed but the relationship felt the same because the guys hadn't changed a bit. THEY were the problem.
DeleteI'm glad your husband was smart enough to listen to himself and know what he needed to do. It is a long road from infidelity but it's one worth walking with a partner who's willing to take a hard look at himself and become better.
Anon 2/20 I hate those people and their self serving opinions too. people feel like they need to chime in either because it justifies their own crummy choices or because it helps them hang on to the illusion that they will be safe from this happening to them. I wrestled for a long time with feeling like people assumed something must be wrong with ME to have driven him to cheat. Now I understand it was not about me at all. I hoped for so long that my ex would have that awakening moment that yours did. I'm still not sure he gets it. or how much damage he's done or that it wasn't a valid choice (i.e. life with me was so awful that he was justified in what he did). He also accepted marital advice from a sex worker, so... he's not got the inside track on healthy life choices.
DeleteI'm glad you are both working things out together. Honestly, I want this for all of us. I'm glad your h is working on his stuff with you.
Norcal, you seem completeley rational given you are only 2 months post d day. Seriously I hadn’t picked myself up of the floor at 2 months. I imagine the thought of staying or going comes from your thought process trying to digest what exactly has happened, your world will feel so unstable right now and don’t worry too much about regretting letting him back in sexually that’s completely normal too, hysterical bonding we like to call it here, it’s something I went through initially as it felt right at the time but I understand what you mean about regretting it after, I did too..
ReplyDeleteI thought it was interesting that your h ‘just wants you to love him’ does he love himself?? Many men who betray have deep rooted issues of low self esteem, depression etc etc stuff that happened in childhood that hasn’t been dealt with, I suggest he has some counselling to get to the root of the issue as to why he risked losing you and his 2 children.
If you haven’t already I would urge you to see a counsellor too, I understand you want to reconcile but what are your conditions for that reconciliation, he needs to know the consequences of breaking them conditions. Norcal I stayed initially for my children my youngest was just 5 months old when I found out about his affair. I realise 5 years later that I am now actually leaving the marriage for myself and my children. We can both still be good parents to our kids.
Keep posting here norcal, this website was my life line back then and still is in some ways I gain so much insight and love here I really feel at home.. one last point please take care of yoursrlf in all that is going on. Take your time xxx
Oh the timing of this. I've been played the fool ... he came clean that there had not been the zero contact that he swore on his life the entire last 6 months. She, however, apparently severed ties 4 weeks ago - and in rolls the "poor woe is me" mess I've been dealing with.
ReplyDeleteI've decided to try an in house separation. I'm obviously in no condition to be moving (I'm 36 weeks pregnant and Baby Buddha will be here before I know it). But I also know I'm done. Physically I'm exhausted, emotionally I'm drained and I just have nothing left to give.
Thankfully my college age son has the largest space in the house. It makes a nice little apartment and is big enough that if I need to I can move our 2 year old and this baby and myself in it so that my college age son can have my 2 year old's room (hey - it's better than the unfinished basement right?).
I'm not sure what our future holds. I've come to the realization that I am done trying to fix things. I've read ALL of your entries Elle - I've known what I needed to do ... but I'm the fixer. And I was so desperate to feel loved and wanted ... no more. I think it's now his turn to do the work.
Kimberly,
DeleteI don't have any advice - I am still knee deep in my mess. But I just wanted to say that I think you know the right thing to do - from reading your replies to me and everyone else - That apartment seems perfect. I cannot imagine going through all this at 36 weeks! I am sure with most of my pregnancies there were many women - I just didn't know about it. I can't imagine keeping healthy through that. You are a very strong woman!!!
It seems the ball is in his court now - maybe this is the step that will push him to do something.
But - you will be fine either way!!!
Just wanted to know I was thinking of you!
Kimberly
DeleteI feel for you. I can’t imagine how uncertain you must feel right now. The final stages of pregnancy are hard enough without this bullshit. And you are going to need support once that baby comes. Do you have any people to lean on? Will your H be helpful with the baby and toddler while you figure out what to do?
I just spent a few months living as roommates with my H, he slept in the office on a pullout couch. It was nice to have my own space, and snuggling my baby helped some nights.
I think it’s good you are focusing on your needs. You have your hands full. I hope you have some support.
I'm sure that the women in my family and friends would come out from behind their closed doors if I called them. But someone to swoop in and help ... no. My parents are gone. My brother & SIL aren't going to help.
DeleteSadly, my biggest support would be my H's brother and his wife. They would be there in a minute if I needed them.
I'm hopeful that we can stay cordial. He's an amazing dad and I know that was a HUGE reason to why I chose to stay 8 months ago. I have also stayed because I could not imagine being in L&D all by myself. I know women did it for centuries ... but I'm not sure I could do it emotionally.
Kimberly one of my best friends through this has been my ex husband's sister. She and I worked out together and I watched her kids after school for years before the shit hit the fan. We decided that we get to keep each other. So don't be afraid to reach out to your H's brother and his wife if they feel like people who will be there for you.
DeleteSix years out from d-day I have the benefit of hindsight and distance. All of the issues mentioned definitely warrant taking action. Whether this is separation or divorce, these are enormous red flags. If you aren't being respected, if the affair is continuing, or if your spouse doesn't take responsibility and also isn't taking the actions necessary for you to start healing, it's time to make a change. If they aren't respecting you, respect yourself. In the end, one of two things will happen: they will either figure it out on their own and fix things ( which is really the ONLY true way to make lasting and meaningful changes) or it will end in divorce.
ReplyDeleteAnn, you are going from strength to strength. It must feel good to be back in the driving seat.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with the appt today.. hope all goes well xx
SS1, your post was always filled with common sense an I thought it was great. In my case, I wanted to separate. I wanted for him to get away. Our MC said, that is ok but that is the first step toward a D. She said think about it before you do this. Do you want to be one step toward D? At the time I thought I don't know what I want. Looking back, I wish we had separated for awhile. It think it would have helped me clear my head faster. But I also think we would have divorced.
ReplyDeleteLLP, that is Exactly how I felt at D-Day 1 and was talked out of it by the counselor. I don't regret staying, but I am thankful that we separated after D-Day 2. If i thought i was hurt on D-day 1, it was totally eclipsed by my disgust and the fury i had NO idea i had, by his vile and out of control behaviour previous to D-Day 2. Why we did not divorce is really a bit of a mystery to me. By the time he got back into this house, every trace of him was piled into his own office, door shut. I was fully prepared for him to fall off the edge of the earth, but so far, and it's still hard at times to let my guard down--he's doing the right thing even if his past behaviour is not a daily or even weekly topic now.
DeleteI wish I had insisted on some form of separation at D-Day (gone back talking with his 'friend' for a month, no guards against sliding back fully into the full blown emotional affair that had him about to leave me and his four kids, 9 months earlier. I WAS devastated and trying to come back from that was a road full of compromises with my husband still acting out from his issues. Then almost four years on (before Christmas 2017) I find out that he's been having inappropriate friendships, lunches with women who fancy him. There is an in-house separation, emotionally and him sleeping on the couch, with the possibility of a next step out of house or formalised and announced separation if he doesn't get his act together. Now he's in IC and while he has not got around to doing all the reparation I think I deserve, facing up squarely and compassionately to new revelations, he has a definite impetus now to make big changes and not find himself back in those ego stroking situations. This means dealing with stress and disagreements in a mature way rather than running for comfort elsewhere or being defensive. If anything further happens he now knows the separation will be permanent.
ReplyDeleteFOH - I'm curious on your agreement with H about the live in separation. What boundaries did you set?
DeleteI have been moving items out of the master bedroom one by one ... and it's been difficult not to go crawl back into the bed we've shared for so many years because I know that if I do what will happen (which will only let him think he's off the hook). The hardest part has been evening time ... because we're all together ... but not together.
Ann that’s great, bet it feels good to have someone in your corner, onwards and upwards Ann. Xx
ReplyDeleteSS1, I agree with you. I'm 15 mos past Dday. That day I insisted on an in-house separation. That lasted for about 1-2 weeks. I insisted that he had to be the one to find a MC & make an apt before I would even consider reconciliation. Well that was followed by hysterical bonding and so I let him move back into our bedroom. I wish I would have been able to kick him out of the house all-together and file a formal separation. I didn't because travel frequently for work and we have no family for overnight child care locally, so I needed him to stay for the kids. Now it's over a year later and things have improved, but I think I'd be emotionally further along in my healing if we had separated temporarily.
ReplyDelete