Yesterday's post has been getting some great response and it has been great how some of you, especially Ann, have offered clarity. But I know how hard this can be, especially after infidelity when the stakes feel so high.
So I thought it would make sense if we shared some situations that have us muddled and then crowdsourced responses.
I gave the example of how I've always hated my husband's temper. Because of my own "stuff", his temper triggered in me a lot of fear and I would respond either by trying to convince him not to be angry (which is disrespectful to him and his feelings. Sometimes he had legitimate reasons to be frustrated or angry) or by getting angry back at him. So something as innocuous as him being angry at a broken dishwasher would escalate into a fight. Our kids would be there listening, it was completely counterproductive and I hated it.
So...my therapist at the time asked me why I stayed in the house when he started ranting and raving. Why did I stay? Well...what choice did I have? "You can leave," she said. I was stunned. Never dawned on me that I could just...walk away. So I told my husband: I find your temper frightening and it scares the kids. You need to learn to control it. Until you do, I will leave the house with the kids any time you can't control your temper.
Now, and this is important, my husband didn't think his temper was bad. He grew up with a raging father so, relatively speaking, my husband thought his temper was mild.
But IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HE THINKS. My feelings matter. And his temper was creating stress and fear in me. And my partner should care about that.
So...next time my husband lost his temper (and I can't recall what it was about -- something silly), I packed up the kids and left for ice cream. Kids were delighted to get ice cream, it was clear that one adult in the family would keep them safe, and my husband was left. He muttered about how he "hardly" got mad. But he also sought help through taking a meditation class. He still has a quick temper. And I know that it's when he feels powerless and frustrated. But that doesn't matter. I can empathize with the feelings behind his behaviour while still not tolerating the behaviour. And because I can't control HIS actions, I have to control my own.
By leaving. By refusing to stay in a house with someone who can't respect me or our kids enough to control his temper.
So that's one example.
Please...share your own. And share the situations that baffle you and let's help you find your way through them.
The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
I'm going to relate this to what I'm going through at work. I work with this new woman who when training her she forgot to seal the deposit bag at the end of the night. After helping her with the paper work that needed to be done I left the money and deposit slip for her to put in the bag while I finished vacuuming the store. She took off with the bag never sealed it and put it in the wrong locker. The next day they found the bag in this locker. I do not have the combination to the locker she uses I only have the combination to the one we use for the deposits. We'll she started crying and said that I set her up. The manager told her that everyone makes mistakes and it was ok. The manager then told me what happened, the big fake tears and all, but never really resolved the problem on why she said that. I had also found out that she talks about me constantly trying to get any dirt on me. So now every time I work with her I have a pit in my stomach worried about what she is going to say that I did next. When I work with her I tend to keep myself busy but she will follow me around the store until I talk to her. The manager told another woman that works there to be careful what is said to this new woman but never resolves any problems until they blow up and get out of hand. In the mean time this has built up and built up in me until I got really angry and blew up one day at the 2 managers and then again at her. I took the brunt of the blame got told not to talk about anything personal including what happened with my husband, that I still have him and to move on while this woman talks about all kinds of personal things that go on in her life, that the manager made a comment to me about not wanting to hear. After blowing up at work because I ended up having a major argument with this woman and I told her I knew what she was doing and I wasn't' threatened by her she started calling me all kinds of names because her position was crumbling. Well this set off major triggers with me because this one woman is just like the OW. The OW had put all the blame on me and my husband and took no blame for what she had done. Her and her friends attacked me on Social Media calling me all kinds of disgusting names. That I was the one who put the drugs in his coffee and planned the whole mess. Needless to say I feel like I need to find counseling again just to get through all of this. My husband has been my biggest supporter and wants me out of this store as fast as I can. Just quit is what he tells me. He doesn't want me to relive any of the pain that he put me through again with some of his decisions that he made at that time. We are in a really good place right now but I can't just leave until I find something else because we need the money. So to get through this I'm going to walk away from anyone who is gossiping and just kind of concentrate on me and the customers I am there to help. I refuse to get caught up in this kind of situation ever again and I'm going to learn how to have boundaries not only with my husband but with coworkers as well. It was like being back in that restaurant two years ago. I guess that I still need to learn some lesson that I didn't learn then. I have accepted my responsibility in things in my marriage that weren't working just like I did in this situation and I still fell on my face no matter how much I tried to avoid any kind of confrontation.
ReplyDeletecm
CM,
DeleteI we want to be all "Buddha" about this, we could tell ourselves that this woman was put in your path to help you heal further, to bring up reminders because there are still things to wrestle with. We could even note that your husband is supporting you 100%, which is great. He gets the role he played in why you're struggling with this woman. But, in practical terms, I would go back to therapy, likely just one session, to remind you of the strategies you need to deal with people like this (she won't be the last one in your life, that's for sure). It might help you find an outlet for the frustration BEFORE you blow your top. And It might help you set some clear boundaries so that her behaviour doesn't get to you quite so much. Can you assign her tasks that put her out of sight/hearing? Can you try killing her with kindness -- complimenting her on a job well done, on something she's wearing, etc.? Can you ask for a different schedule than she's on? Your boss is a total wimp who is clearly also unhinged, to some extent, by this woman. As my friend often reminds me, the most dysfunctional person in the room often has the most power. Because everyone else tippy-toes around. It's completely unprofessional and unhealthy. But...see if there are ways you can shift the dynamic yourself without losing your cool. By the time you're losing your temper, it's because you've already felt your boundaries violated in small ways and it builds and builds. You need to recognize it the first time it happens and address it in some way.
CM, I met women all the time like this. I didn't kill her with kindness. I learned there are three types of communication, passive, a person presents themselves as submissive, sacrificing. An aggressive communication is sarcastic, blaming intimidating and unfair. An assertive communication is open, honest, direct calm. I would suggest and what worked for me is to a firm tone. Look her in the eye. State your point of view without being hesitant. Next time start with I feel (bullied, uncomfortable, unwanted) This is how I feel - This is what it means to me - I need..... this is assertive. Don't say you make me - you shouldn't =- don't you think you should. In assertive way go up to any of these woman and say, I felt hurt when I saw your post. What is going on? Have I hurt you in some way? I felt shame about what you said. Is there some reason why you said it? I feel alone when you gossip. What do you think about it? What do you need so I can show you it is not true? I found that confronting bullies this way helps me. You are not the down dogged here. You may feel alone but you are really are a tiger who earned everyone of her strips. If these immature woman pull the tail on this tiger make sure you turn your head and show them your teeth in an assertive way. I can tell you after I told people how their actions made me feel there was no more to build up and build up in my mind.
DeleteLLP! this is such great advice. I figured out some of that with a terrible person from work. I will be sure to handle her this way. Makes so much sense.
DeleteExcellent advice, LLP. I would like to add only 1 suggestion. When communicating assertively & asking her (or whomever) a direct question, continue looking her in the eye, stop talking and wait for her to answer. (With a calm look on your face, as well!)
DeleteYears ago, I had the habit of talking to fill in uncomfortable pauses when an older man told me that the first one to talk loses the argument/loses the challenge.
Hope it helps CM!
Thank you for what you both said. I was offered a new job today and I took it. I am going back to baking again something that I felt that was taken away from me. I took me two years to gain that back again and I realize how much I've missed it. I found this woman named Teal Swan on youtube and she talks about the Victim Control Dynamic. This woman is a spiritual leader but, she talks a lot about vulnerability. Listening to her has really helped me understand what these women do why they do it. I realize that I will always come into contact with women like these but now I know what to look for and to stay away from especially the ones that gossip or vent as they say. I've learned a lot these last few years and I know my situation with my husband is not the norm. My daughter's Dr filled me in on that one. I'm just so grateful that I found this site and how much you all have helped me not only to understand me but other people too.
DeleteCathy
You guys are so awesome. I took notes, LLP. Thank you all the great advice. Though it looks as though Cathy gets to escape this toxic environment, there's no doubt all of us will come across something like it at some point. I have a hard time with "assertive" communication with non-family members. I'm far FAR too willing to sacrifice my self-respect for being "nice".
DeleteI confronted her last week just like I did with the OW and the things she did. She didn't like what I had to say and will eventually find someone else there to make a scapegoat out of. I think that people like this like to go after other people who they are weaker than themselves. I know that these women who helped the OW thought I was weak too and that I was just going to scurry away with my tail stuck between my legs. I proved to all of them that I am not. I keep things bottled up until I'm ready to say what I have to and then I go on and eventually let it go. And in your words Elle, I refuse to "sacrifice my self-respect for being nice" to anyone ever again. I have learned now how to deal with boundaries with coworkers too. I have discovered this one thing about myself in the last two years, I am a lot stronger than I ever imagined myself to be in these crazy situations.
DeleteCathy
Hi ladies, I have a terrible fear of motorways I’ve been driving 22 years but have only driven on a motorway once any motorway driving is generally done by my h. I’m not sure how or where my fear comes from but I’m guessing the speed of the motorway petrifies me. Many a time when we’ve been on the motorway I tell my h to slow down, he gets annoyed and tells me he knows how to drive, yes he does and we’ve never had an accident to date however he knows my anxieties on the motorway but still drives fast (although within the speed limit). I reckon following d day 2 my trust for him deteriorated a little more and I’ve probably only been on the motorway with him 3 times in the last year. I’ve come to the conclusion that I get by just fine without going on the motorway with him and it suits me . I’m not sure it’s a consequence as I don’t think it makes him think about me or my anxieties . I don’t feel anxious with anyone else driving so why do I him?? It’s bizarre. My friend who’s a driving instructor has offered me motorway lessons so I can drive on my own but I chicken out .. so frustrating as it does limit me to where I can go.. xx
ReplyDeleteThe issue isn't your fear of the motorway, it's his refusal to empathize with that fear. It doesn't matter if it's irrational or not. It's real to you. And the fact that you're more anxious with him on the motorway than with other people is because you don't feel safe with him -- emotionally. And THAT is the problem.
DeleteCan you have a conversation about it when you're not actually driving? To explain that this has NOTHING to do with his driving or abilities or whatever (sounds like he's taking it personally) and everything to do with some fear you have about driving on the motorway and how vulnerable you feel when he's driving and not able to empathize with your anxiety? Because, again, the problem isn't your fear...but rather his insensitive response to your fear.
Sam A, I agree with Elle completely. He's taking your fear and making it about him, when instead he could be showing empathy and trying to understand how to help. No wonder you feel extra not safe.
DeleteAs far as the driving lessons from your friend. Take them up on it, just see if you can start with something a little low key first, rather than going straight to the M6. Maybe there's a closed course where you can have a bit of fun whizzing around and practice some defensive driving techniques, just to build your confidence behind the wheel over all. That's just a practical idea from me.
I think I'm finally understanding what you all mean by "consequences" in relation to boundaries. My initial confusion was that I associate the word with authority. With parenting. With teaching. With a stronger person deciding what a weaker person must do to "learn their lesson." I now get that that's not what you mean at all. (Thank goodness because that doesn't fit in a healthy marriage imho). What you're really talking about is not taking on someone else's natural consequence to save them. You mean don't save people. I've been doing this all along (Not taking on his consequences). From before I discovered the affairs even. Just before I found out, my H came home in a terrible mood. He hated us all it seemed. I told him I was not going to be home much that weekend because clearly he had issues to work out. I made plans and kept them. I then confronted him asking why I had been the brunt of his frustrations. He then launched into how my weight and general level of attractiveness was part of his problem. I stopped the conversation. Told him this was not a way to speak to me. Told him he could attend marriage counseling if he would like to continue being married to me. Told him I would be going to individual therapy no matter what he chose, because I now needed some help processing (keep in mind, this was a week before disclosure. He had NEVER said anything like that to me before.) I followed through. Made my individual session and kept it. Printed 3 marriage counselors info and asked him to pick one. As my world was rocked and I wanted answers, I went looking. Found the condom under the lining of the suitcase. BOOM.
ReplyDeleteSo our appointments were made before I fell apart. I did a GREAT job handing his pile of shit right back to him when he asked me to carry it. Now, I had put up with his "moods" and general pulling away, but not without a fight. When the chips were down, and it was him or me: I chose me. That's what consequences mean. He had them not because I gave them to him. He had them because I refused to save him from the ones he earned. So here's a menu of consequences (ways to avoid rescuing your H):
Get away from him when he has things to work out and he seems to be using you as a punching bag.
Explain that you require a session with your marriage counselor (even if you haven't been in a while).
Explain that you will visit with your individual counselor for help and clarity.
Stop a conversation cold if you are being blamed unfairly (and move away physically).
Leave a restaurant/movie/family gathering if needed.
Speak about what's out of line out loud in public if needed. If someone finds out about the affairs, it's because HE HAD THEM. Not because you let it slip. If he's flirting and embarrassed you said it where the waitress heard IT'S BECAUSE HE DID IT. Not because you talked about it in front of her/his mom/whatever.
When you rescue him by holding on to the pile of shit he produced and handed off, you are begging him to stay with you. "Consequences" , in this sense, means handing the pile of shit directly back to him to flush. (Then you go wash your hands). This all makes total sense to me. I was just not using the same name. I'm so thankful for the clarity, and I totally get how this is so important when setting boundaries.
Ann,
DeleteYes, exactly. In some cases, the consequences are natural. If a kid refuses to wear winter boots, his feet will get cold. It's not up to us (depending on age of kid) to nag or insist. They learn by experiencing the consequences of a stupid choice.
When it comes to husbands, especially post D-Day, it's a bit tougher because sometimes the consequences aren't "natural". If he goes to an online chat group, unless we enforce some sort of consequence, there isn't likely to be a natural one. So that's where I think women, including me, get tripped up. Because it does feel authoritarian or parent-like. And that's not good in a healthy relationship. But it's an important way to respect ourselves and to make it clear what we will and won't tolerate. Again, it's not about punishment but about self-respect.
Yes that mother like feeling is hard to escape sometimes. And I find that with having such a long relationship that some of these things/reactions are habit. I have found I need to state as LLP said above to another response. I do not like x that you are doing. I feel x way when you do x. These have been the more general used phrases to be direct with how his actions affect me. He needs to know. I am not going to keep it inside. I find the more non emotional and matter of fact I am the more effective it is. He can more easily dismiss my thoughts when I get emotional. And I think he looks at me when I have a straight face and thinks that I am serious. And at least for us the consequence is I just do not want to be around him. It is bad but it reminds me of a puppy or a small child. Sometimes isolating them and ignoring them works.
DeleteI was really glad to see this post. I feel like boundaries were such a difficult thing - a) because lets be honest, I can barely get my children to "obey" ... little lone my tech savvy husband when it comes to technology and b) I HATE feeling like his mother ...
DeleteI think the first step is figuring out what my boundaries really are. What do *I* need to feel secure in this relationship because I have NOT a clue right at this moment.
Baby steps ...
I suppose some may call it a consequence that my H doesn't friend any women at all on Facebook. To me it was just a boundary. It's a needless worry for me. With everything else I have to worry about, I'm simply not interested in being married If he felt the need to friend even innocent women on Facebook. I'm not under an illusion that he can't have an affair without Facebook, it was just a requirement I came up with to lighten my anxiety load. Prior to this, I'd never thought about asking for that at all. I'm not possessive, just trying to look out for myself. People who don't know (everyone) would think I'm crazy controlling I'm sure. I'm not. He agreed freely to assist me in this way. It helps a tiny fraction and doesn't hurt him a bit.
ReplyDeleteExactly. And the guys who fight against this are the ones who infuriate me. Their refusal to accept that they violated clear boundaries and that they may need to give up some things in order to help their partner feel safe.
DeleteAnn--this may seem petty so I am saying it here where hopefully I won't be judged? I unfriended all my husbands old high school friends who were girls on his FB account :) I mean I did not leave one. Before DDay I found a message on FB he sent to the old homecoming queen from his class. Saying hello and that she hadn't changed and was still the same beautiful girl blah blah blah. I didn't think much of it at the time although maybe I should have remembering how she did try to break us up in HS because she wanted to date him, whatever right? That was 40 plus years ago and as I said at the time I really didn't care and found it harmless. Well after DDay it just pissed me off. He sure as hell never told me I was still the same beautiful girl, which curiously is something I tell him all the time, haha not girl of course but that he is still the same handsome 18 year old boy that I fell in love with, in my eyes. So I started unfriending all of them. I don't think he even knew I'd done that until I told him. Thankfully he's not very astute on FB and I do monitor his account.
DeleteOK well I'm thinking it was probably pretty immature to have done that but I own it :)
My H communicated with the OW on LinkedIn. So my requirement was that we had to have all shared accounts on social media with a shared email account. That way there could not be any private messaging or befriending. He actually appreciates it now because after having his own affair, he lives in fear that I will retaliate against him and have one too. This helps ease his mind and insecurities too.
DeleteTrying hard,
DeleteI did something similar, and I don't feel a bit bad about it. When I suspected a relationship too close w a flight attendant and Facebook friend (my H said I was crazy) I logged in as him (we already shared passwords) and unfollowed her so she wouldn't show up in his feed. 1 week later he was following again. I unfollowed again, he refollowed. Are you surprised that she turned out to be one of the OW? When he unfriended her and all the other women, she sent a friend request 2 weeks later. He told me and deleted. So I did the same as you, and I'd do it again. I told him I did all that right after discovery.
My husband is not allowed to be on any social media at all. He had a fake FB and fake email all connected to a free poker website. He has always been clueless when it comes to technology but he found a way to set this all up and communicate with a lot of women. The other thing he did was follow both his ow FB pages. He looked at them every day at least once a day and after they "broke up" he still looked at them. As far as with the ow he only texted them (never saved their numbers in his phone) and email. He did have one email saved but he has 100's since patients email him often or other work contacts. And his email and phone number are on many websites so anyone can get those.
DeleteThe night before dday he left his ipad at home by accident when he was out of town. When his ipad pinged at 1-2am or so it woke me up and there were questionable texts. Honestly I would have probably drive through the night to face him then but the kids were asleep. So instead I spent 5+ hours taking photos of everything on his ipad. I had no idea what I was looking at but I just took photos of it all. I also logged into our verizon account and printed out years of phone records.
In the end on dday I said no more of any of this. He totally agreed. In the end I know he can set up and hide anything he wants. I cannot look at his work email or records due to confidentiality or his phone calls/messages. But I can see where he was pulled in by the anonymity of it all. I still find it upsetting on many levels but I agree set the boundaries and what you need. If they go off and do something then we have done all we can.
In the last few months I am being triggered all day...everyday. My Stepson is a very difficult, hyperactive, attention-seeking, non-disciplined preteen. He has been this way since day one (both his parents follow the let-kids-be-kids without boundaries parenting). The conflict between me and my H regarding the lack of parenting and his sons behavior was one core problem surrounding the affair (the affair was with his son’s “favorite” teacher who “understood” my stepson ). Since the affair, and even more so lately, I have become less tolerant of my step son and less willing to put up with living in a caotic household. I have also started to pull away from both of them since my H just can’t seem to step up his parenting game (along with resenting me for resenting his son’s behavior and him). I feel the only way I can save my sanity is to leave the room and make myself preoccupied and just not be around my stepson. I feel like I am l am reliving the affair only this time with knowledge that there was an affair (versus my ignorance when it was actually happening). Because of this I am just angry every day, irritable, not much joy to be around. I explain to him that this was all the exact same things happening when he had the affair, and by not making changes just keeps me stuck remembering and reliving. He has finally agreed to go to a counselor to try to agree to a parenting plan, but I lack confidence in him actually being able to implement it. How do I self care without creating a situation where he resents me, or where I just make the problem worse because I am distancing myself from my family.
ReplyDeleteFight like a girl,
DeleteThis is a major stress on a marriage, so you are so wise to get to some counseling sessions to get on the same page. Our son is a behavior challenge. It was definitely part of our struggle before I discovered the affairs. We were both competing for who was the better parent and who had it figured out better. Now that we're on the same page, when our son does something, we can both look at each other, roll our eyes, and say, "our son is an asshole." (Not in earshot of the kid. May sound harsh, but it represents that we are both acknowledging that WE DONT KNOW.) When you're a step mom though, calling him an asshole will not work, but maybe he can at least acknowledge that he doesn't know either. Some kids at some stages are assholes, then parents tear themselves apart running from that and desperate to fix it before someone finds out. For us, we found it better to just admit it and work as a team to get through it. Our son is doing SO much better with two parents on the same page that he is an asshole sometimes than he ever did with parents fighting over how to best make it look like he wasn't an asshole to others. We actually like being around him Now! Grades up, lots of friends... We love our little asshole.
FLAG,
DeleteI second Ann's comment re. the importance of both of you being on the same page re. parenting and acting like a team. It's definitely complicated by the fact that you're a stepmom but, ultimately, it's best for the kid to not feel he has the power to drive a wedge into adult relationships. No wonder he's acting out. That's a power that's terrifying to kids, even as they think they want it. They want boundaries. They want to know that the adults are in charge.
Practice radical self-care all the time but especially when you're waiting for the counselling sessions. Try and give your husband the benefit of the doubt and see if he'll step up. There's a great parenting book for teens (not sure how old this kid is) called "Mom and Dad get out of my life but first can you drive me and Cheryl to the mall." It's hilarious and it really helped me and then my husband (I insisted he read it) recognize that kids are, often, assholes. Especially kids who don't have boundaries. Even if you and your husband agree to a plan, there are going to be times when he slips into old behaviours. It's hard to break a pattern. But if you two can commit to being allies in this, instead of enemies, you're on the right track. As for the affair with this kids' favourite teacher, SHE clearly has no boundaries, which is why she "gets" this kid. They reinforce each other's unhealthy dynamic. But that's HER problem, not yours. Yours is to take care of yourself, have an honest conversation with your husband about how you want to be a team with him to give this kid stability but also feel respected in your own home. You deserve that.
And Ann? I love my three assholes too. They're my favorite people in the world.
Fight like a Girl--Gosh I feel so bad for you being caught in the middle. Not only do you have to deal with your cheating husband but his preteen son as well who seemingly represents a very triggering affect since it was HIS teach with whom you husband choose to have an affair. You must feel doubly betrayed. How awful for you to try and make this work with your h know that the trigger, his son/your "stepson", will be there to remind for probably the next what 5-6 years. Wow this would be a terrible pain for both you, the son and your husband. I can't understand why you are trying to make it work. I will tell you having raised teen age boys. It will get much worse before it gets better. Not trying to scare you just being real and honest here. Your step son I am certain feels your resentment and you don't sound like you are keeping that resentment to yourself by i.e. "walking out when he comes in the room". I hope you understand that your husband's first priority should be to raising his son and not to you. I know that probably hurts but it's true. I told my son the very same thing when he married a woman with a teen aged daughter and he has thanked me many times for making him aware of this.
DeleteActually it seems to me that you have no recourse with consequences with regards to your husbands choices because it would involve hurting an innocent child, his son. OK maybe not technically a "child" but and innocent adolescent who still needs his fathers love and guidance.
It must be so terribly difficult to have differing parenting values and have to live with someone who doesn't share those values. I know I would NOT have the fortitude. I would leave. I hope you find some support because you are definitely between a rock and a hard spot.
Thank you both...and especially for the little assholes giggles. My friends hear me use that word quite often...lol. My H biggest battle will be not coming to his son’s defense every time I step in to correct his behavior. He will even do it in front of his son (who is 12) and say things like “why can’t you guys just get along”. At that time I am required to remind him that I am not his sibling or school chum but another ADULT and need to treated as such. Luckily our therapist is well advise in this constant struggle of ours. He parents out of guilt and fear of making his son upset/uncomfortable and coddles him like s baby. I say cowboy up and stop letting him manipulate you! Grrrr. None of us are perfect parents, but we all have to be open to what the world around us sees as a problem and then be open to being better than we are. He is just one of those “it’s not his fault, people just need to be more tolerant...he is just a kid”. Well that works when they are 4/5/6/7/8....but now that he is almost 13 he is just an....asshole! I just want to be able to handle being in the same room as him without requiring WINE!
DeleteTH, I have also raised two boys of my own (now 18 and 21). My oldest has aspergers and was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at 18. I am all too familiar with difficult parenting, and I think that is why I am so damned and determined to make changes with my stepson because I see how the next 6 years are going to play out if I don’t. I was a very consistent and strict parent with my boys because that’s what knuckleheads need to become men. I definitely question whether I can make it through the next 6 years. I know if we survive, my H and I will have a wonderful life. He has jumped over mountains to fix the mess he made in all other aspects excepts the ones surrounding his son. I think that is the main trigger. I pray our counselor can get us on the same page.
DeleteSo now that I fully understand what a consequence means in relation to a marriage with boundaries (Thanks to Elle and all who chimed in to help me understand), do you apply them to annoyances or only truly damaging stuff? Here's mine: my H sometimes has strong opinions that he will state that will make other people uncomfortable. He's not mean about it, he's just not afraid to disagree out loud. In a social setting, I prefer to "make nice" and get along. (I'm sure we can all agree that may have not always been a great trait. Especially when your H is being an ass and knee deep in affairs you don't know about). Anyway, our styles are different and it embarrasses me when things get awkward in a group. I have an immediate need to smooth things over. The smoothing things over feels unhealthy to me, so I usually let him be himself and talk to myself about how it's the other person's responsibility to speak up if they disagree instead of awkward silence. Now I'm questioning if maybe I should take it a step further and excuse myself so I don't have to even be there. Just casually head for a bathroom break? I'm not sure he needs to change this behavior (he's not abusive to people, just vocal). It's possible that I actually need to adopt more if this attitude (not entirely sure). I do know that I don't like it. It's my feeling. Not intervening seemed the best choice, but I'm still having to talk myself down when he does this. Also, he knows it makes me uncomfortable. Perhaps taking off for a bit is better? He will also get stuck on certain topics when other people are ready to move on to something else. When is it just a quirk and when is it something that requires a consequence?
ReplyDeleteWow. Sounds really familiar to me. I've come to the conclusion that I don't have a CLUE what other people of my husband. Or rather, the things that I sometimes find objectionable, other people appreciate. My husband is "socially awkward" to use my son's term for him. He can be incredibly charming but he just doesn't seem to know when not to cross certain lines. To me, it's unbearable. I'm such a pleaser and so attuned to other people's body language and teensy responses. And yet...I've heard later that I've misread things. Sure, some people are uncomfortable but lots absolutely adore my husband's candor. They think he's hilarious. If he's inappropriate, I call him out publicly -- and he's welcome to do the same to me. But for the most part, I've learned that my reading of a room isn't necessarily as accurate as I think it is. And, as you say, it's not our responsibility to smooth things over. I think that's something WE need to deal with ourselves. We clearly feel he's a reflection on us and that's just not the case. He is who he is and we need to give him permission to be that guy and give ourselves permission to be who we are. It's our concern about what others think that's the issue here.
DeleteElle,
DeleteOh my gosh. So much YES. My H is socially awkward and simultaneously charming. I'm not even kidding when I tell you I've wondered about some extremely high functioning Autism spectrum disorder diagnosis in his future. So smart and funny, but these social instances make me wonder if he's needing targeted instruction in some of the things the rest of us learn naturally. They're subtle and even endearing sometimes. It sounds like we all deal a little with something like this. Missed opportunities for empathy, not reading social cues, comminication problems, etc. Part of what shocked me about the affairs was I assumed I was the only person in the world who could handle all his little quirky ways. I pictured other women as saying, "no way I'm taking on that!" Wrong. Apparently they were lining up. I was stunned. Wanted to ask, "do they know how you do x, y, or z?"
It's true that I need to worry a whole lot less about what others think. That I need to let him be himself in public even if it makes me nervous. This is where I will put my energy in those situations because that's where I have control: my own growth.
Ann-- Just a suggestion here but I would love to know what happens if you would try this. Instead of leaving when your h gets "vocal" what if you simply stood there in complete silence and just looked at him? Not glaring or angry but looked at him to respond to what others say in response to his, I'm assuming provocative, vocalizations?
DeleteIt's not your responsibility to "smooth" things over for him. He is responsible for his own words and actions. Do you think that maybe when you try to intervene by smoothing things over that maybe you are putting yourself in the role of guardian/mother? Because I have to say it kind of sounds like it to me.
How about taking the onus completely off of yourself and leaving it all on him. Maybe walking away is what you will have to do but I think if he sees you aren't going to bail him out socially maybe he will think twice if he has to answer for himself.
Either way I would completely remove myself for feeling responsible for what someone else says or does.
I too suspect my husband is on the spectrum. Super smart. Super clueless at times. You're right -- things that others just pick up, he doesn't. He really has a hard time tuning into others' cues. And yet, he's highly sensitive. Would HATE to think he's insulted someone or upset them.
DeleteIt's interesting to me how many people pointed things out to me before I really clued in. A woman at my husband's office, who has become a good friend of mine, told me that people in the office adore my office though they think of him as a big kid, a sort of Doogie Howser character. She's the one who told them "everyone" knows he has ADD. Of course he does. I didn't really realize it because HE won't acknowledge it. So, I'm learning to just let him be him, unless it veers into inappropriate or insulting, and to be easier on myself too about my own quirks.
I had that cringey thing with my ex all the time. I think, for me, its a little bit about squishy boundaries too. Taking responsibility for something that is not mine. When I try to look at the situation from another's perspective, I think about when a friend's spouse says something stupid, outlandish, whatever things, I never look at the friend and think "why don't you control what is coming out of that idiot's mouth?" or "You married him, you must think those outlandish things too." So why do I think people will think badly of me, (guilt by association) because my h said something outlandish or even offensive? I think for some long time because I didn't have a separate identity from him. We were a couple. Therefore his stupid shit was my stupid shit. And it got worse when he drank. Just mortifying. Because people saw. Because I saw people's pity or judgement.
DeleteI think this has gotten easier for me for a couple of reasons.
1. I'm not responsible for anyone else's words or actions (if they are an adult).
2. What if he/they really are doing their best? (even if their best sucks)
3. As I got less judgmental of myself, I got less nonjudgmental of others and in turn this situation became less painful because I was more patient with it all.
4. I stopped assuming anyone actually cared about what he said.
5. I realized I had the power to leave or change the conversation if I didn't agree. I can speak up if something is racist/sexist/stupid/offensive. I can change the subject. I can excuse myself from the group or table.
Recently was at a party hosted by neighbors at a local pub in a large private room. Some of our neighborhood are a hard drinking set and have alcohol dependency issues, if not full blown alcoholism. One neighbor was vocally being very critical of the wait staff where our host (and the staff) could hear, talking about leaving a bad review online blah blah blah.. I could see the host getting red in the face. it was in poor taste. But also not my business to fix. Later however, the complainer came to my table and began her same diatribe about service to me and a friend. I looked her in the eye while she talked but did not nod or agree. When she paused for breathe, I simply spoke up and changed the subject. "I'm so hungry. these hot wings are really hitting the spot." And that was that. Not very subtle but it worked for me.
I find more and more that when people are being assholes, I leave them to it, and distance myself. Unless its more appropriate to call then out (racism, sexism etc.) and when I deem it safe for me to do so (and never on social media lol).
Oh and here's a really useful nugget from a genius therapist is saw for a few moths of couple counseling. When someone is being a jerk, or behaving in embarrassing ways or being mean etc. (think about these cringe worthy situations or the last time someone flipped you the bird while driving) and sometimes you are either hurting or boiling about it. Well she said, close your eyes and picture all those feelings as a ball of energy. You can even shape it with your hands. And when you can really picture the ball of energy, hand it back to that person. it's not yours to carry. Good stuff! I find this visualization has really worked for me in a number of scenarios. Even with my ex!
Trying hard, I LOVE LOVE LOVE your idea and will try it. It sounds like watching a movie. If he does something like that, I can just watch with interest to see what happens next!
DeleteStill standing 1, I LOVE that nugget from your therapist. I'm going to apply it at work. I have the craziest co worker in the world.sounds like the perfect way to imagine and then actually make sure she holds her own crazy.
My hang up and huge trigger is similar to elles. My husband doesn't yell though. He storms around with this negative energy that you can almost see its so extreme. Then he starts to work himself up with comments, this is out of place and that is not put away, how can he work when "people" aka me have done a b and c to stop him... it is juat one mumbling sarcastic comment to the next. I'm an extrovert. I get my energy from people and being around people. When he gets like this I feel like a dark cloud is coming at me slowly swallowing me up. I hate the feeling. Before I would run around and fix everything he said was wrong juat to get it to stop. If it took 10 minutes or all day i would do it. It's not like I didn't know he was being unreasonable, I knew it. But i thought it was my job to make him feel better and put him back into his happy place. I was his partner and I could help him with his shortcomings and He with mine. He couldn't yet see how his behaviour was immature and harmful. I was prepared to love him through it and hopped he would get it one day.
ReplyDeletePost affair I do not act this way. I tell him to stop. I say no more. I say I do not deserve this treatment. He will say "what treatment im not even talking to you" and its true he isnt. But this crazy negative space he creates drives me crazy with his mummbles and comments and his stomping around. I dont know what to do about it. He doesn't know what to so about it. So far I think it's only happened twice since d day. Both times I went screaming mad. It was an I'm-going-to-kick-you-out-in-front-of-theses-kids-if-you-say-another-word mad. I dont think the me leaving technique would work here... as he is not scaring anyone... juat teaching my kids how to be negative and blame anything and everything bad on someone else. He would say im escalating it to something extreme not him. Argh. Don't like the clean pot is still sitting on the drying rack? Put it away. I've got 5 loads of laundry, a poop bum to change and vomit to clean up in the crib. Who cares about the pot. Asshole. :) I mean darling. But if he can just go away on his own for awhile and get out of the my-life-is-horrible-because-of-a-pot mindset then he normally gets sheepish and says sorry. It's just the resentment now that builds inside me. So he gets to step out of our life and take a breather now and then and what do i get? A shower with two kids because neither will agree not to scream cry at the door for me if I take one alone. Luckily i have my third kid most likely sweetly playing with barbies alone or drawing me a picture to give me When I get out.. She must get that from me. Lol I wonder where the other two get their life-is-terrible mommy is in the shower i must throw an extremely ridculous tantrum attitude from.
Marriage is work. Give and take. I always knew that. So when he gets back from his breather maybe I'll take mine and he can deal with his "mini me" kiddies. Whom i love but just really really hate showering with.
Blindsided.
Blindsided,
DeleteThat stuff drives me NUTS. My husband does it too -- mumbles to himself. It is relatively harmless in that your reaction to it is YOUR problem, not his. But, I do think you can call him out on it. If he's mumbling about the pot that needs cleaning offer up something like, "yeah, it's annoying me too. Would be such a help if you could clean it and put it away." My husband grumbled because, apparently, I don't rinse dishes well enough. So I've made it clear that if he is unhappy with the way I do dishes, he's welcome to do them. I literally have to leave the kitchen when he does because he uses an entire Great Lake of water -- HOT!! My eco-sensibility is offended. However...I just leave. And when I return, the dishes are done. My husband is on the OCD spectrum so there's a lot of things that bother him. I try (TRY!!!) to exercise compassion but there are days it's very very hard.
I know it's hard when kids are small and clinging to their mommy. Mine were the very same. But now that my kids are older, we do talk about "dad's" temper and we talked candidly when he took meditation in order to manage it. I think it's important for kids to be able to call a spade a spade and not pretend something isn't happening.
Blindsided,
DeleteI know exactly what you're talking about! My H is simular. Somewhere I learned that (mostly men) blame others for everything to preserve a shaky self concept. Makes sense if you feel you're a piece of crap, but not fair to those around you! I have stopped my husband before and said, "look. It's clear from your body language and mumbling that you are unhappy right now. Possibly unhappy with our home, or me personally, or both. If that is the case, let's just talk about what you want to do about that. I see lots if options for you." This usually shocks him into discussing what's really bothering him (It's never the dishes or me btw) or at least he gets the idea about how he's affecting me. It triggers me too. If he couldn't process that when I call him out on it after a while I know I would want to tell him to go ahead and go find a wife with better laundry skills or whatever... Not good. So other consequences would be nice. Maybe someone else will have ideas about this for us both!
Blindsided,
DeleteI'm guilty of behaving like your H. For too long my auto-response to frustration (i.e. to things that aren't EXACTLY the way I want) had been to "storm around with this negative energy that you can almost see its so extreme." To grumble sarcastic comments under my breath. To pout and stomp, but when asked what is wrong to answer "NOTHING, I'm FINE." And then to stage-whisper "I guess I'll just have to do EVERYTHING myself like ALWAYS."
What a jerk. This is an immature, passive-aggressive way to behave. It is also learned -- this is how my parents behaved. It is not how I want to behave and it is not how I want my children to behave.
Your instinct is right -- you don't deserve this treatment. If he's anything like me, your H knows this but is stuck. In a sense, it is like adultery -- I'm NOT equating the two -- I'd much rather my H had grumbled and stomped than cheated -- but I do think there is a similar irrational, selfish, shame-driven element in each. A spiral into becoming someone you never wanted to be. But then there you are, sarcastically berating your 8 year old for not organizing his toy box the "right" way.
When the mood feels right, talk to your H about it as a friend and encourage him to work with a counselor. I hope he is open to change -- now would be the time, throw it on the pile! :) My daily life and my relationships with my family are better for having done the work of change. As much as I hate to admit, it probably wouldn't have happened without the crisis of my H's adultery. Best wishes to you (and your H!).
This post and responses are perfect. I think we are on to something here.
ReplyDeleteI thought I was crazy and alone when I was triggered post affair. I was furious that for years I put up with my husband's irritating social gaffes, peculiar OCD and excessive drinking, yet he chose to fuck my next door neighbor. I would tell him his swearing at cars in traffic only stressed me and the kids out, not that driver, yet it was he who chose to fuck around with her in my basement as me and the kids slept upstairs.
Oh, in therapy, he told me he hated it when I shut him down at parties when he was going on about something offensive, or made a crack he intended to be funny but clearly was not. So, poor baby's feelIngs were hurt? And sticking his dick in her whore mouth made him feel better? Disgusting.
So now, when he treads ever so lightly back in that direction-yelling in traffic, annoyed that I don't fill my gas tank when it's low, screaming at our difficult son, drinking too much, makes a crack about a woman's appearance-Jesus I could go on-I am triggered big time. He did all this shit before. I stayed . HE had the affair. Why the fuck would I stay??
I feel myself wanting to flee when it happens. My body screams loud and clear to get the fuck away from him. And sometimes it escapes my mouth as well.
I feel as though he must operate from a position of ALWAYS making sure he's doing right by me. And he doesn't get a voice in saying what it irritates him about me. Nope. In fact, I stopped marriage counseling because I couldn't hear another word about what I wasn't doing or nurturing for him prior to the affair. Two and a half years out, and I still won't hear it.
Another way I recently found I'm triggered is in his complacency. Even if things are relatively calm and peaceful, I don't feel he's being attentive enough to me. No texting. No kind words. Just regular life. But I recognize I think that that was part of what was wrong before. Neither of us told the other that we needed those types of kind words and texts. I lived with it. He fucked my friend.
So I don't ever worry about another affair. He's already broken my trust in the worse way possible. I'm not jealous or possessive. Never was. I just always question why I should stay, simply because of the way he's hurt and disrespected me. It called my life into question. What's love? Why marry? Was it a mistake?
I love this thread and this site and you women. I know I'm not alone. I was so moved by yesterday's post that I sent iy to my husband. I do that sometimes. He reads posts from Elle and others to get a glimpse into what we feel. And he knows that's one of the many, many things I need from him in order for me to feel safe.
TryMe,
DeleteI'm so glad this site is helpful to you. I'm curious if your husband ever comments on something he's read here. I'm wondering what it's like, as the cheater, to read our words.
As for your situation, it sounds as though you're both in a holding pattern. The cheating might be over but a lot of the underlying anger/resentment is still there. Do you think he's an alcoholic? Does his drinking really change his behaviour? Because that's a red flag for me (though I come from an alcoholic home so I am super sensitive to drinking).
And I would encourage you to go the individual counselling (and I might insist he did too) before even bothering with marriage counselling. You need a place to process all your anger and frustration before you can even consider rebuilding a healthy marriage. And you can explore why you are staying. You don't have to, you know. You get to choose what your life looks like. I can't help but wonder how unhealthy it is for your son to sorta stew in a family with such anger running under the surface.
He has a lot to make up for, TryMe, but a marriage can't be built solely on one partner making amends. You two need to rebuild a foundation based on mutual respect, honesty and genuine caring. It's the only way any of this is worth the time and effort. You deserve that, TryMe.
Thanks, Elle. He does go to individual counseling still, though I stopped. I probably should start again.
ReplyDeleteMost of our days are pleasant and normal. So our kids don't see what they used to right after the affair-me furious, us yelling, so much hurt and anger. We are very cognizant of securing their home. It's the main reason I stay.
I do think he may be an alcoholic. And I had gotten into a very bad habit myself of drinking all the time. Probably numbing my pain.
But recently I stopped altogether. I must be in a healthier place. I am not using it as a salve anymore. Plus the increased calories helped put weight back on, weight that I easily shed when he blew my world apart.
I guess I still am so angry that he actually did what he did to me. Deep inside. It doesn't always surface, but triggers do it. That's what I likely need to explore in therapy.
He doesn't say too much about the posts I share. He said yesterday something like "is that what you feel" in regards to the one yesterday. I'll have to read it again to see what he meant. And he said he'd read it again too. Maybe we'll read it together.
I fantasize from time to time about leaving him. To punish him. But I look at the big picture, "the greater good" as my sons psychiatrist said. And keeping my family together, especially for my son, is vital. And that circles me back to my resentment of course. How. Could. He. Do. This. There's so much at stake! And yet, our sons difficulty is one of the many reasons cited for his affair. Again-I get it. I was there too. But I didn't fuck my next door neighbor and friend, only to hang out with them for cocktails later, his scent still possibly on me.
I feel trapped sometimes. And other times, all is well. But I can say this. He poked the bear. Since his affair, I have awakened in a way I never thought I would. I'm aware of my needs. I'm strong as hell. And a lot of me sees the good in him and in moving forward with the love he has to give and the work he's done this far. But that small part of me is still so angry, and may never fully forgive him.
Wondering if anyone has ideas for boundaries with my ex. Its weird because we are not in a relationship as such anymore, but old bad habits abound. And when it comes to parenting, while we are most often on the same page and communicate well, my ex lives in fear of having either kid mad at him. Its' so childish, but it also means that he is not enforcing our arrangement about his nights/schedule with our son. Our daughter is 18 and in college and as far as seeing him, does what she wants which in her words is "just enough to keep the college money coming" (ouch). So with my son, he doesn't like to leave the house and he especially doesn't want to give up what he sees as "his time" to go over and spend it at his dad's place. He's been there and they have very occasionally done things, but my ex is not much of a plan ahead kind of guy. So all this boils down to me having been very accommodating in the beginning to my ex coming to my house (our family home) to spend his evenings with our son and to see him on weekends. He makes no effort to take him out, especially now that it is winter. I typically will make sure I have plans (painting class on Mondays, dinner with the boyfriend or a run with my group on Thursdays) but it is tough to detach when he's around so much. And I think Selkie is in the same boat. And I think the guy has some regrets, at least about not being "home" and so likes to spend time here. And I'm part of the problem too. I waffle between not caring what he does, to really just wanting him out of my face.
ReplyDeleteSo I know I need to talk to him. Again. About getting into a new groove. Maybe when the weather changes, it will give new opportunities for them to do things. There need to be consequences for both my son and ex, but I'm not sure what they would be or even what would be appropriate.
But it's like I told a coworker who was really overwhelmed with having to do her own job and another until they filled a vacancy (going on for 10 months now). You are the only one who is feeling the pain of this situation. Not the company. They have no reason to change anything because they are in no pain. You need to make them aware of the pain or feel the pain by talking to them about the situation, asking for a deadline for the hire, asking for someone to delegate the work to, and being in front of them about it often. So they get uncomfortable enough to change the situation. I can see that so clearly in business situations. Why is it so much harder in personal ones?
Hi Still Standing 1,
DeleteYep, in the same boat! In theory I think - MAKE the (ex-)h plan/ organise something. But in practice, as you say, when the weather is bad, or if your son doesn't want to go out - what solution is there???
Maybe something like he has to LEAVE your space at least every second time he sees your son? If he is anything like my h, it can be absolutely spirit-sapping to have him around.
I'm actually thinking of getting someone to feng shui/ bless the house to get rid of the negative vibes!
Here is a re-post of my Limbo situation in case anyone might have ideas to share:
The only time my h and I share space these days is when he comes to 'our'/ my place to spend time with his daughter. If he doesn't bring her out as arranged, I have to leave my home. (The place is too small for her not to keep approaching me whenever he turns to his phone instead of his 2-and-a-half-year-old... and I can't shut the door on her.)
As we live in a rural location, there is literally nowhere for me to go that is not 45 minutes drive away. And my friends also live at a distance. On a Sunday, everything is closed. Sometimes I am too tired to drive so long after a week of commuting to work - just to be in a warm place away from him.
I resent having to leave the house - but I would rather do that then stay there when he is around. The problem is that he knows I put our daughter's welfare first (i.e. if it's cold and raining, and near her naptime, I will not insist that he bring her out somewhere). He doesn't like to organise anything in advance.
Because of his recent slacking off in work (due to the stress and depression of post-affair 'reality'), he and his team now have to work Saturdays. This means the only day he can see his child is Sunday... which means the only day I can go out by myself is Sunday... when all the stores are closed (and when often I am so tired from the week that I just want to rest.)
So far, neither I nor our daughter has seen his new apartment (also in rural isolation - nothing fancy!) because he wanted to clean it up first. Three months on, still not ready.
I suspect he in some way likes hanging around the place where we used to all live together. I like that my daughter sees her father on her own home ground. But I wish I had another place to take refuge myself during those times.
I need to think of a consequence that will not be hard on my child.
Tryme-
ReplyDeleteYou are so SPOT ON and I feel that my situation is SO SIMILAR to yours.
My D-Day was Halloween Eve 2016, so I am 15 months into this nightmare. I thought I was crazy when I would be triggered and tossed into the pain/anger cycle. It was so difficult to keep myself pulled together.
My H has a horrible temper (this appears to be somewhat of theme amongst cheaters?). And I have spent so much of our 22 year marriage walking on eggshells. BUT, he was an the biggest absolute ASS to all of us, especially me when he was deep into his affair with his married co-worker. He would come home from a trip (with her) after being gone all week and proceed to sit in his chair and get wasty-pants drunk every night. And basically his only interaction with me and our kids was to pick on all of us, and then say "fine, I'll be on a plane again on Monday so eveyone will be happy" The kids would tell me they wanted to just be out of the house so they wouldn't accidentally poke the bear.
I am DONE with that. It is so incredibly liberating to face him and tell him exactly what I think about his behavior when he blows up. Or makes inappropriate comments when we are in a social setting. I used to cringe when he would get on a rampage about politics/race. Now I realize that his crass opinions are not a reflection on me AT ALL, just like his affair with his co-worker is not about me at all.
I also feel trapped--many many days I feel trapped and wish I had never married him. If it werent for my/our 3 beautiful children I sometimes feel that he is the worst mistake I have ever made. Then other days, I can see a glimmer of hope that I will again come to love him. He pleads with me all the time to "please come back to him" and love him like I did pre-affair. That seems imppossible.
But it's hard work. Every day, to overcome the anger, and to forgive. I am doing it for my family, as we all are. For the greater good.
I thank you Elle and everyone for all your wisdom. It is such a blessing to have yall to turn to when I hit a bump.
Hugs and love,
Anonymous in Texas
Anon in Texas
DeleteOh yeah. The shitty husband. I hear every word you are saying. As I too used to walk on egg shells to keep the peace at home for our young children, and I was not a confrontational person.
Unbelievable how our husbands are moody with us when they are the ones causing all the problems!! Obviously not happy husbands who can't take responsibility or ownership for their own stuff ups and trying to put the blame on us.
I too feel he was the worst mistake/choice I made marrying him. I tried everything for our marriage to work, but he didn't want to. He didn't want to live a life of honesty and with integrity. He prefers to live a life of lies and being irresponsible.
Sending you many hugs
Gabby xo
Great idea for a post, Elle. Consequences and boundary enforcement is such a struggle for us women. For me, I have had to work through my own tendency to end up on the defensive when he throws a tantrum as a result of my boundary setting. So instead of falling for his accusation ("you are controlling me" or "What about you?") and letting him derail the issue, I repeat the agreement, the boundary and my response ("We agreed to ____. What you did or propose is not what I agreed to _____. I will not accommodate what you want. ") Just repeating it over and over again, rather than falling for his countermoves, had been a game changer. My big boundary has been that I stated that I will only function as a co-parent with him until I feel heard and that his behavior is accountable and trustworthy. I asked our therapist, in his presence to help us draft an agreement for an in home separation.
ReplyDeleteGuys help! I discovered three months ago that my husband cheated on me, I was out of the country with our daughter and my father was ill. He says it was 5 times that they had sex and blames me being distant and devoted to the child. Our sexual life was not great for years but it was not possible to talk it over with him- he rarely expresses his feelings. On top of everything, between his work and hobbies, over the years he spent little time at home (must admit that he always slept at home) and dedicated little time to our daughter. Now, he’s been begging me to forgive him, his affair is over, he said it was just a physical need and he as well confessed to our priest. He keeps repeating that he made a huge mistake and will never ever do it again. He wants us to restart a life, he says he will not go out anymore (and he did not since I found out about the affair) and will dedicate his life to the family and our daughter ( which he does, he spends every free moment with her now). I am so hurt ( and so sad, my father passed away two months ago) so cannot find strength to forgive him; I just cannot go over the fact that it was so easy fir him to cheat and not even try to talk over things with me first. I am devastated.... I find it difficult to talk to him and keep imagining him with another woman... Please help...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - I'm so sorry to hear of your father's passing. Dealing with that loss and this loss has to be tremendously difficult!
DeleteThe beautiful thing of this (if there is such a thing) is that you do NOT have to forgive him today. You don't even have to forgive him tomorrow. You do not have to forgive him to remain in the marriage ... right now you just need to work through your grief of the loss of your father and the loss of the security in your relationship.
Then ... when you're ready ... you'll know what the right answer is. Remember self-care is vital in this moment for you and it's NOT being selfish to say "I need time to sort through this" ...
Anon - Jan18
DeleteSo sorry for the loss of your father. This is a very sad time for you.
You are grieving so much - the loss of your dad and the breakdown of your marriage through yours husbands betrayal. I ditto to Kimberly's words.
I hope you are able to talk to a therapist as you are going through some really tough times.
It really pisses me off our husbands having affairs full stop, but the extra slap in the face is because they try to justify we are spending too much time looking after our children - their gene pool! - and not with them.
Well maybe if you guys get off your butts and help and share what we mums do 24/7, (remember your working week is 40hours), we may have time to share with you. My selfish husband didn't get this. Keep coming here Anon, and give yourself a made up name if need be.
Thinking of you
Hugs
Gabby xo
Here's a favorite article from 2013 about the "deep spiritual practice of not giving a shit" because:
ReplyDelete"This spiritual practice isn’t about not loving other people or not caring about their thoughts and feelings. It’s simply about letting go of their judgments and opinions of you.
The question always comes down to, “How much am I going to let someone else’s opinion of me control how I feel about myself and what I do?”
If you want their opinions to have less power over you, you must start to give less of a shit."
https://everydayfeminism.com/2013/04/not-giving-a-shit/
It's a quick, easy, actionable read. Seems to fit on this thread.. Hugs and love! ss1
SS1 - I ordered The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck from Amazon at the same time I ordered textbooks for my oldest son ... my middle son saw it in the stack and was like "What class does B need this for?" ... I just chuckled and told him it was for mom and the class was called life. :)
DeleteElle, you defined this issues with examples which was helpful. What a great action just leave. My H is very nice sometimes borderline flirting. After the situation, I have a meltdown and explain what I saw. He is funny and women just like to be around him. After the first meltdown he did nothing that looked like flirting around this one younger girl. He is 72. We also went to therapy to talk about it. I play bridge with women his age or older. The therapist said, Widow or woman with disable husband find my husband safe to flirt with. I think she missed the point and so did I until I read this post. But then there are things he does that I think are flirting but then I'm hypersensitive. We were playing cards and a woman was going outside for a cigarette. My husband asked her if he could join her? She said yes. He doesn't smoke but love to smoke cigarettes social either it is usually another man, he bums a smoke. He said, all I wanted was a cigarette, nothing more to it. That is what makes it hard. He really doesn't get mad. He does avoid at times but nothing major. When I call him out, he says your right. But next time he flirts I will leave. No doubt. My consequence is to back off and leave him alone. I ignore him and do something else. I mean I totally ignore him. I reply in short answers. I don't sit by him. I shut him out. Then he comes around and says let's talk. I feel terrible when you do this. When he is in a bad mood, I say to him, I'm not responsible for your happiness and you are not responsible for mind.
ReplyDeleteLLP
Delete"Innocent flirting" - there is no such thing in my books with my STBX. He was a smart arse flirter, a real arrogant creep, but women like to be around my h too.
He never flirted like that with me as I never liked that sort of thing, so now, that's all he knows.
I'm sorry to hear you are going through more tough times.
Hugs
Gabby xo
Boundaries for me and the consequences in the beginning were difficult. I didn’t want to rock the boat. My h made the choice to give up his favorite game of volleyball because he met her with the game and she confronted me at the last game he played without really saying we’re enjoying good sexual experiences but what a wonderful friend he was during her divorce. It took another year for him to finish his affair but he wasn’t having sex with her just lunch dates to keep her silent. Then he took her on the out of town business trip for one more toss in the hay. She was patient for six months and then she blew up my world with truth. I’m thinking that our boundaries have become established due to our usually having a blow up and then we discuss calmly what triggers the blow up. He makes decisions about his trips that have to be hard for him. This year he has chosen to not go to his annual golf trip. Blew me away when he said that. He knows how stressful it is now that my mother is living in our house with hospice. It’s been hard on all of us. Just knowing he made a very unselfish decision is a really big deal. I love this thread!
ReplyDeleteTheresa
DeleteIt seems no matter which way we stand - to rock the boat or not - is never the right way where our/my husband/s are concerned, as they make shitty choices regardless.
I'm so glad to hear he gave up his golfing for you.
My h had no tolerance for my boundaries which = no respect for me, our marriage or our family.
Hugs
Gabby xo
Thinking of you with your mom in hospice. They are such a great organization in such a difficult time.
DeleteMy husband has really had a hard time with dealing with friends. It is kind of a chicken and egg drill. Many of these friends are from when he was 5 years old, grade school etc. But when I look at them I would say only two have high morals but almost to the point of restrictive. All the others push the limits. I have no idea of the cheat, lie on their taxes etc but they all have questionable behavior or major issues. And he has a large group of friends. We are almost to three years since dday and his friends ask him often what is going on. He used to be the "organizer/planner". And he never said no to an opportunity to go out or travel. Right after dday he did have two trips planned and still went on them. We had a plan in place and it worked well. Every week though he is asked to do several things and he is better than ever at deciding but it is not easy. I could go on and on about this topic and our discussions. The most critical thing is we have an open dialog about it and that it is constantly evolving.
I guess I was pretty fortunate early on after my husband's disclosure, in the days when I had no idea how to deal with the information that blew up my world after 35+ years of being married to "Mr. Moral and Clean Cut". I never, ever thought of boundaries because I always lived within them and assumed he did too. In retrospect, my husband did everything I asked without complaint or push back and some things he did without me asking. He still asks me if there is anything at all that he does that triggers me (other than me having to look at him when things trigger me) and I have to honestly say, "no". He sold a car, he closed FB, he went to public places when I had to work or be somewhere so he wasn't alone at home with his computer. Recently he told me he was going to get rid of his Ipad although it is not with us now. That little computer allowed him to access porn everywhere and now he just has a laptop that needs internet. Last year, after we closed on our house, the realtor (who was super yet looked and dressed like a Barbie Doll) hugged me and then him to say goodbye as she handed us the keys. When she left he told me that she made him very uncomfortable and that he thought she was unprofessional to hug him. He said he never wanted to touch another woman other than me again with the exception of our daughters and granddaughters. He does not travel with his guy friends and months ago when I posted about worrying about that it was not clear to me that he had changed that much but he has. Theresa, it sounds like your husband has internalized your pain and understands better what your needs are at this time in your life. Hoping for a smooth transition for your mother. When my mother was at the end of her life, hospice was wonderful and gave us the help we needed to make sure she died without pain. Much love to you and everyone here.
ReplyDeleteThanks Beach Girl. I finally realized that Mother is not going to be better than she is and I was hoping hospice was the answer.. I just don’t want her to feel pain and she’s already lived with her pain for years now...
DeleteHi Beach Girl
DeleteGlad he's doing the right things for you.
Hugs
Gabby xo
This blog helped me realize I needed to set boundaries. My therapist helped me figure out personally what I needed to do. My husband had me so convinced the way he was living was normal or better than normal. Well that was compared to his friends which was not saying a lot. And also he lied to my face when asked direct questions. So after 10+ years I needed to recalibrate. My therapist really helped validate what I needed to feel safe and to consider staying in this marriage.
ReplyDeleteHopeful 30
DeleteBoundaries are so crucial to a healthy marriage.
Seems like you have a good therapist to help work on your marriage.
Hugs
Gabby xo
Thanks Elle and ss1 I think your both right and I might have to have that conversation with him at some point, there’s many to be had just never a right time I guess. Yes maybe before I’m old and past it I will conquer this bloody motorway driving once and for all .. thank you lovely ladies xxx
ReplyDeleteOne really tricky issue I have with my h is bedtime for our 2and a half year old. Although we have previously agreed that she should go to bed at a certain time (for optimum sleep & to let me (the resident parent) do something else for an hour before my own bedtime, my h almost ALWAYS makes it an hour or 90minutes later.
ReplyDeleteThis leads to natural cranky consequences when our daughter doesn't get enough sleep- or has to be woken the following day. But guess who deals with those?
(I live with my daughter & my h is in a separate apartment.)
It is not out of malice. He is just completely unable to deal with the passage of time. (When he is alone, he sometimes eats dinner at 10pm because of this... or bad organisation.)
Any ideas hugely welcomed!
I should probably explain that my h comes over 2 evenings a week (when I work late) to collect our daughter, bring her home & start dinner.
ReplyDelete(Since he told me he did not want to make an effort with our relationship as a couple, I have refused to eat at the same table as him. In practice this means he eats with the little one those two evenings.)
Just to provide some dysfunctional context to the bedtime problem...
Hopeful 30
ReplyDeleteMy h has had to deal with our friends as well because we too were more active in their lives and the friends he has at work he can eat lunch with when he’s in town or choose to eat with Mother and me. Today was our turn to have his company. I’m kind of proud of how hard he’s stepping up to the challenges that face both of us.
I agree I am so proud of him. It has been a total 180 for him. Like I look at him and think wow he is an entirely new person. The hard thing is no one else has changed. He is okay with that but it is so obvious to them. I am sure they think I "put my foot down". That is all we can both think. He does a good job saying he has refocused and wants to spend more time with the kids before college and more time with me etc. The sad thing is he has tried to facilitate so many couples things big and small and no one is interested. It is either couples that live separate lives or parents so absorbed in their kids lives they cannot schedule anything with us much less their spouse. In the end we have each other and for now that works.
DeleteFour years after D-day (January the trigger month but now superceded by the enormity of the tragedy of my 12 year old nephews's death), we are at make or break. Up to September of 2017 my husband had engaged in inappropriate friendships and arranged to meet two different women for lunch in very similar circumstances that caused the first emotional affair. He hid these meetings and the inappropriate texts that had begun to come from one of the women. During last year he also broke our keeping in contact when out at a late night event agreement. Feeling bad in himself he purposely did it the last time and did not contact me though out to 2am. I realised that my mental health had suffered far too much. The remorse was there over the four years but also defensiveness and undermining. He went on the couch in November with the idea that I was deciding what the future was, he sent me a full transparency document, we started counselling and he has started IC and completed an online course for depression. Remorse and reconciliation was well meant by him but inconsistent and unreliable, more deceptions and more cruel actions. He thought he'd read books and done work but he had never got to the bottom of why he was behaving this way, against his own stated desires. I guess what I am trying to put across is that it all gets very complicated when in reconciliation. The betrayed usually is compassionate beyond the call of duty, we try to understand, make allowances etc but sometimes there just seems to be an underlying problem which causes transgressions, a little lie here, disrespect there and we are left wondering what is worth taking a stand over. We don't want to be unreasonable. I wish I could have stood back and really looked at what I was being offered over the four years. Crumbs, lack of compassion, failure to take me seriously, deception and return to porn use (once off - supposedly), all over a long period of time and intermittent 'slip ups' so none causing a huge alarm bell but all in all painting a picture of a man who still was not dealing with his stresses or with me in a mature and proactive and healthy way. Even now he is getting help, I don't know if he is the equivalent of an alcoholic emotionally. Will he fall off the wagon again. Is he capable of having a fully engaged and mature relationship? I have given him every chance but now the boundary is drawn, no more chances, a physical in-house separation (but a soft boundary as the therapist calls it, enough to make a point though), rings off till we both feel there is true commitment and still my perogative to say, no, there is not enough done, it can't work. But from my side, no more compromises.
ReplyDeleteFOH - I want to sit here and cheer you on for you standing up for yourself and finally saying ... no more! You truly deserve no less than his full cooperation and I can only imagine that the death of your nephew will spur you towards that outcome.
DeleteThanks so much Kimberly, you said it so well xx
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