I just responded to one of our beloved betrayeds who's struggling with a husband who continues to flirt online in a forum that's ostensibly for something innocuous. The banter crossed a line into clear flirting and innuendo. Something that's perfectly harmless and acceptable except when you're married. Except when you've already shattered your wife's heart because of cheating. Except when you're trying to convince your betrayed wife that you're worth giving a second chance. That it was a mistake that you'll never ever make again.
And what our beloved betrayed is trying to do is convince her husband that what he's doing is not okay. He doesn't get it. He thinks it's fine. The forum is helpful to him. What's a little sexual banter among strangers? Why so upset?
I certainly don't need to explain to anyone here why this is triggering our beloved betrayed. We know how painful it is because we're living it. It's awful enough dealing with the cultural pressure put on betrayeds, the humiliation we feel in a culture that thinks we're doormats for staying, the shame we often feel because we're somehow convinced that only frumpy, boring, pathetic women get cheated on. So even if he wasn't openly flirting with a woman, it's still painful moving past what he's already done by cheating. But to compound that by engaging in conversation ripe with sexual overtones seems either incredibly tone-deaf or outright cruel. Either way, there's no excuse.
However, this post isn't about how clueless and/or cruel her spouse is.
It's about her.
Because she is holding herself responsible for explaining to him why what he's doing is okay. She's outlined why it hurts, she's pointed out that this behaviour led to that behaviour. She's made it clear that that behaviour is unacceptable therefore this behaviour is too. She's drawn charts and maps, she's set forth her thesis, she's prepared her conclusion. Not literally, of course. But she has approached this the way a lawyer would approach a tough case.
And her husband has responded with a full-throated defence of what he's doing. I'm innocent. It's harmless. It means nothing. Just goofing around. This site is good for him. It's healthy.
How do we feel about this, ladies? Do I hear a hearty "Hell no!!"? Thought so.
Because HELL NO!
He doesn't get to defend behaviour that's hurtful to you. He doesn't get to decide what's hurtful to you. He doesn't get to explain to you why you shouldn't be hurt and how this is harmless and you're over-reacting and all the other bullshit that is setting off every alarm bell in your body and sending you spiralling back into curl-up-on-the-floor sobbing rage.
That fury you feel? That we all feel? That's our signal that our boundaries are being violated and that none of this is okay. That rage is our signal that we're not taking care of ourselves.
So what do we do? Well, we start by taking a deep breath. We can't take care of ourselves when we're hyperventilating. We wash our face with cold water. We stop our hands from shaking. And then we calmly and clearly state that nobody gets to tell us what we're allowed to be hurt by or upset about or threatened by, least of all the guy who cheated on us. That, from here on in, WE will be the ones determining what behaviour we will or will not tolerate in this relationship. And, in this particular case, we will not tolerate flirting or sexual banter of any kind. It doesn't matter if he "gets" it. Don't try and convince him. It's enough that you are hurt and that you aren trying your damnedest to heal from the pain he caused. And then you clearly and calmly detail the consequences. Make sure they are consequences that you will enforce. This isn't about punishing him. It isn't about demeaning him. It's about respecting yourself and keeping yourself emotionally safe.
We teach people how to treat us. And when we tolerate mistreatment, we teach them that it's okay to mistreat us. When we try to convince people that we deserve respect, that our feelings matter...even as we're disrespecting ourselves and dismissing our own needs...we are telling them that their needs matter more. We are assuming a position of less than.
We will get to a place in the relationship where each partner's needs matter equally. We will get to a place where I matter and you matter and together we will negotiate getting our needs met. But right now, your need for emotional safety trumps everything. Everything.
And if he is truly committed to helping you heal, to mitigating the pain he's caused, he will understand that. But if he doesn't, it's not up to you to convince him.
The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
This is such an important concept for me to remain on touch with. I don't think I'm very different from many of us in that at first I immediately questioned if I mattered when I found out I didn't matter to him (in at least a few moments of sexual acts with women at work). When he did what he did, I didn't matter to him. Plain and simple as well as excruciatingly painful. So initially I thought I might not matter at all. To anyone. That I didn't matter in general. That was the darkest feeling. The one that made me question why I should continue to kid myself and go on living. Almost immediately my inner voice reminded me of my goodness (I'm so thankful this feeling of worthlessness didnt last long enough to endanger my life). My charity. My humor. Of how many people actually loved and respected me. So almost immediately I felt I had something I needed to make him understand. I mattered! He just forgot or didn't see it! If I could make him know that, he could never do this again! I think some of my actions during the first few months were geared toward that goal. Proving I was worth something and that I mattered to him and to show the OW (surely they were checking MY social media too, right?) Somewhere along the way I proved it to myself too (who is the only person worth convincing: Yourself). It was a gradual thing. I can't point to a moment when the switch flipped. I learned to be kind and patient with myself, and took care of myself AS IF I mattered. Then eventually my self worth was more than a whisper. It was on the tip of my tongue and accessible to me when I felt down or my H was behaving in a way that I didn't understand. Just this weekend, my H seemed to be in a bad mood. Easily irritated and short. I tried to reach him and ask about his mood, but he wasn't aware enough to have a constructive conversation yet. So I let it go. I let him have his mood, and I chose mine. He left for his 3 day trip still in a huff (nothing going right, running late... nothing to do with me, although his mood affected me.) When he was gone, I was not surprised when the visuals of the affairs came to my mind. They still do that sometimes, but now I just let them wash over me. They don't scare me like they used to. I just sit and wait and say nice things to myself. Then as they were building, my inner voice said that I didn't have to do this. I hadn't missed a step of reminding him how good I was on his way out the door to keep his mood from spiraling into an affair. That is not my responsibility. If he needs constant reminders that I matter, then I want out of this marriage. If I have to convince him not to flirt with or have sex with other people, then I want out. If he is so weak that traffic problems and a bad mood lead to sex with others, then he is not for me. It almost made me laugh that I even considered it for one second. The visuals went away and were replaced with a firm knowledge that I mattered in those moments wether he acknowledged or not. It wasn't my job to remind him I mattered before or during the affairs just as it's not now. His actions may have rattled my grasp on my self worth, but he didn't destroy it. It belongs to me. No one can take it unless I give it away. He can forget all he wants, but I won't. So if our H's behave in ways that hurt us, we do not need to spend energy showing them that our feelings matter. They just DO matter. If they don't see it, let them have their thoughts, but you chose yours and behave accordingly, I say! My H was only moody but not hurtful. If he crosses over into hurtful, flirty, or insensitive I'm out, but I accept that it is not my responsibility to stop him from those things... I don't try to control the outcome.
ReplyDeleteAnn, I so appreciate your post above. It is extremely helpful to me. I'm still struggling to learn how to do this effectively. "If he needs constant reminders that I matter, I want out of my marriage." Just about sums up everything in a nice little package and I'll add that pretty pink/purple/black bow on the top. My husband paid for sex when he felt stressed/angry/depressed/etc and it never made him feel better. It only made him feel worse as it confirmed in his mind that he was a worthless piece of shit that deserved to die. I hope I never get to that point in my life. My self worth, I see, is often tied to how I think others feel/think about me, not how I see myself. That is just wrong. Your words are so powerful. I just need to remember all of them when I get triggered. We lived through our 39th anniversary with no fanfare, mushy cards or unrealistic expectations. He got a card from me with a frog on the front sitting on a bouquet that reads, "a little leap of faith" and the inside reads "one hop at a time" and I wrote, "keeping the faith". The colorful card he gave me was a bit mushier with a sun and moon on the front that reads, "You are the sunshine in my day and the moon glow in my night". Inside it reads "the center of my universe, my love and my light." He asked me to marry him again. I get zero messages from him that he does not appreciate me. Those messages are generated inside my head when I think about how he dishonored me and our marriage for 35+ years. It is still very hard to look at him as a recovering sex addict when I was in the dark the entire time. You, Ann, are a light in my life.
DeleteYup you did it again Ann & Elle. The both of you need to just team up and write a book. I will buy it, then recommend it for the 80% of us that will be affect by affair in their lifetime. It would be a best seller for sure.
DeleteWhy is everyone so broken they would do this to their life?
Here is what came to my head earlier today. My husband took a huge gamble having his gross affair. Early on I couldn’t get my head around why now? Why after 3 kids he would choose this for his life? Why after he finally got his work transfer? He took such a huge gamble for nothingness. We had worked SO HARD to get to this point. We were SO CLOSE to being in the same town 100% of the time not just 50%. We have lived in less then desirable homes to accommodate two mortgages. We were about to live together in a beautiful home of our dreams with our beautiful kids and 2 amazing jobs. We were about to have it ALL.
So today it struck me. He was like a gambler. They sit down at the slot machine and they put in a little money just to see what happens and try it out (the flirting). They find it interesting, they like the anticipation of some payout so they put in a little more money (the lunches, the meals, the conversation with the whore). It gets to a point where there is more money being put into the machine then they should or a reasonable person would – but still there is no huge risk to him or his livelihood, there is still money in the bank and the bills can still get paid (not having sex, but emotional affair started).
Lights flash and they experience a thrill of anticipation that they have come to really enjoy. The thought that a big win might come fuels them. (they start a sexual affair) And they do win some, but not nearly as much as they have put in. Now they put more, and more, and more, looking to get that feeling again, but the anticipation and good feelings have started to fade. Now they are looking just to get the money they have put in, because there is fear starting to pound in their heart. Perhaps they will still win a jackpot and it will solve all their problems. Only, now they have put everything they have into this slot machine, and they haven’t won big. They have very foolishly given away everything they have worked hard for and saved for for years. It is gone. And now they have to shamefully get up with empty pockets and begin to work again to build what they have very foolishly given away. All for what? A small chance to win big? Which is what? A different lifestyle? What is wrong with the lifestyle they have? Now that everything is gone, what is easier for the gambler to do? To take a loan out and pretend it didn’t happen, may seem easier to do, but you cannot live the same lifestyle on loaned money. It will all come crashing down on you eventually. (the lies the affair didn’t happen, the downplaying) So do you live in the lie as long as you possibly can? Or own up to it. Deal with the fall out and start to rebuild from nothing. It is scary. It is shameful. How could anyone trust them with money again? If they understand it was stupid and are committed to making a better life then the one they have thrown away they should never ever go into the casino again. Naively thinking that you will just “try it out” again and there is “no harm” is stupidity. Clearly there was something inside that gambler that was missing. It is in most of us, most of the time and it says “Okay, enough is enough there is no winning here only losing.” and you walk away. Or perhaps we are all the gambler, and given the right circumstances we may all fall victim of loosing everything just by making the simple choice of “trying it out” to see what it feels like.
My husband gambled everything we have worked for 7 years. Chasing a thrill, thinking that maybe there was a jackpot, something amazing he would find or get from it that was missing. But instead he lost everything. Foolish and blind.
Blindsided.
Blindsided, That is a brilliant analogy. And I think for most of these guys (the ones who aren't looking to get out of their marriages and are shocked when they realize what they've done), that's exactly what happens. It IS thrilling to have a new person pay attention to us, it IS exciting to imagine novel sex, etc. And then they get too far down the road and they figure it's too late to turn back and then they're found out and they're as shocked as anyone at the damage they've created.
DeleteAnd yes, Ann. You've described perfectly what so many of us go through. It took my husband's cheating to lead me back to myself. I had given so much of myself away, with the hope that people would love me, think I was worthy, want me in their lives. And it was only when I was faced with the truth of my own behaviour -- that I didn't think I mattered except for what I could do for other people -- that I had to either create change, or die. I seriously considered the latter. But ultimately, here I am. With all of you women that I learn from daily.
blindsided- yes. You pretty much described Sex addiction. The rush the gamble. The shame the chase. Vicious cycle
DeleteOne thing I still struggle to understand are the "consequences" you talk about with boundaries. I can imagine that if my H engages in behaviors that are beyond my zone of tolerance, I would need to explain that this marriage is not for me and leave. I understand that if he does or says something that is not ok with me, I need to communicate that clearly. I have learned to speak up for sure. But what consequence is there except "I'm out."? Is it a conversation where you explain you need space to consider what you want to do? I can sort of see that... I'm not at a point where I really need to communicate consequences, but I'm trying to understand what some might be if I needed to at some point. What are examples of consequences other than just saying, "I need to take care of me now."
ReplyDeleteYes, I have the same question. A statement or action that will make me feel like I am respecting myself and that will show him that he can't do whatever he pleases without some consequence. But what?!
DeleteI think when the "I'm out" becomes the default, then you need to rethink things. The "I'm out" might be what you decide if he ever cheats again. But what about more minor offences. Forgetting to let you know that he's running late. Flirting at the office party. Etc. Surely you're not going straight to divorce even when, with his cheating, we're closer to pulling the trigger.
DeleteHere's an example: My husband's temper was brutal. I hated it. And I had fallen into the habit of trying to calm him down and then, when it didn't work (and it never did), I would yell back. It was scary for my kids, who were young at that point. So...I told him that next time he lost his temper in front of the kids, I would leave with them and wouldn't return home until he calmed down. I told the kids that when Daddy can't control his temper, we were going to leave and we would get ice cream. I told them clearly that he needed to learn to control his temper but that we couldn't control him.
I only had to do it once (if I recall). Kids were excited to get ice cream, so something scary became something fun. My husband felt sheepish and stupid. And he sought help (meditation) for his temper. He still tends toward a hair-trigger temper, but a pointed look from me or an eye-roll from our now older kids, and he catches himself. He doesn't want to be that guy.
So...in your case, say your husband flirts with a waitress. Figure out in advance what you're comfortable doing. I would be inclined to just leave. If you miss dinner, so be it. If he's stuck there alone, so be it. Don't get caught up in the "if I leave him there and he flirts with her, who knows what will happen, etc." Focus on you and what you need. Maybe you ask for a doggie bag for your dinner. Maybe you stop and get take-out on your way home. It's about treating YOURSELF with respect. It's about treating your needs and your comfort as if they matter because they do. You've given me a good idea for a blog post -- let's all come forward with the situations that confuse us...and then we'll brainstorm how to respond.
Thanks, Elle.
DeleteThe only time my h and I share space these days is when he comes to 'our'/ my place to spend time with his daughter. If he doesn't bring her out as arranged, I have to leave my home. (The place is too small for her not to keep approaching me whenever he turns to his phone instead of his 2-and-a-half-year-old... and I can't shut the door on her.)
As we live in a rural location, there is literally nowhere for me to go that is not 45 minutes drive away. And my friends also live at a distance. On a Sunday, everything is closed. Sometimes I am too tired to drive so long after a week of commuting to work - just to be in a warm place away from him.
I resent having to leave the house - but I would rather do that then stay there when he is around. The problem is that he knows I put our daughter's welfare first (i.e. if it's cold and raining, and near her naptime, I will not insist that he bring her out somewhere). He doesn't like to organise anything in advance.
Because of his recent slacking off in work (due to the stress and depression of post-affair 'reality'), he and his team now have to work Saturdays. This means the only day he can see his child is Sunday... which means the only day I can go out by myself is Sunday... when all the stores are closed (and when often I am so tired from the week that I just want to rest.)
So far, neither I nor our daughter has seen his new apartment (also in rural isolation - nothing fancy!) because he wanted to clean it up first. Three months on, still not ready.
I suspect he in some way likes hanging around the place where we used to all live together. I like that my daughter sees her father on her own home ground. But I wish I had another place to take refuge myself during those times.
I need to think of a consequence that will not be hard on my child.
After my visuals of the affairs and my acknowledgement of my continued worth, I had an extra cup of tea and felt fine. I was no longer fearful that my H was headed toward an affair (or at least resolved that I need not spend energy there). Three minutes later came the text from him saying he missed me with a heart emoji and that he was sorry for being in a bad mood. His sinuses were acting up and blah, blah, blah... He was ready to process his mood and shared it with me. Apologized. When he gets back I can discuss how his bad mood triggered me and how I hope he can remember that next time he has a sinus (or other) issue. The sooner he can share what's bothering him, the quicker we will both feel better.
ReplyDeleteAnn,
DeleteThis is exactly what happens with my husband and me. And sometimes it's HIM having to wait out MY moods. But when he can just be patient with me, I can usually realize I'm being unfair or unkind and own up to it. It takes both partners to create a relationship that feels safe and nurturing.
I've always felt like I must not have said it right, try again, when someone doesn't get it. I judge myself by H's (anyone's, really) reactions and moods without even knowing I'm doing it. H is faithful now (I think), but like yours, Ann, he struggles with irritibility (read: depression). He comes back eventually, but it's still painful and triggering.
ReplyDeleteIt's true, Elle -- we need to know our personal limits. For our beloved betrayed, I second your, "HELL NO." Gaslighting is a deal-breaker. Short-term consequence? I take space, I spend time with friends who get it. Long-term? "If you can't make my feelings a priority, I'll know you want to end this relationship." Stay strong, warriors.
Snowbird,
DeleteThanks! That makes sense to me. Space if short term, laying it all on the line for big stuff. I was trying to imagine things like, "you will do the dishes alone for 7 days" or "you will rake leaves to remind yourself of the mess you've made" as consequences. That doesn't work or fit at all! Lol. To me it would make sense to say, "you've chosen to do X, which is not ok with me. I need to do Y in order to take care of myself and have time to think this through. Afterwards we can come back together to discuss our way forward." Less parent and child. More two grown-ass adults. Got it! Thanks for clarifying.
Snowbird,
DeleteI grew up believing that other people's moods are my responsibility. Someone's angry? What did I do to cause it? Someone's sad? How can I make them happy again? Etc. And that is a HARD habit to break, especially when my self-esteem relied so much on being useful to people. I still struggle with reminding myself that other people's moods are not my fault or my responsibility. My husband made a comment about the cost of some theatre tickets we bought and my default response was to feel as if I didn't deserve to buy them. That wasn't what he was saying at all -- he was just surprised. And if I'm responding like another adult (and not like a child who feels she's made a mistake), I can acknowledge that, yes, they were expensive without taking responsibility for the price. Ann, your comment about two grown-ass adults is bang on. When I'm feeling afraid or responsible for others' feelings, I'm in "kid" mode.
Thank you Elle. I’m more of an f bomb girl, but HELL NO has a good ring to it.
ReplyDeleteI do like the “consequences” topic that Ann mentioned. It would be nice to understand what those could be. In the heat of a discussion at times it hard to think. Should the boundary discussion be followed up with consequences?
Heartfelt,
DeleteIt really REALLY helps if you, in advance, get clear on your own boundaries (what you will and will not tolerate, what makes you feel safe in the relationship, etc.) and what the consequences are if he violates them. And then, calmly, have the conversation with him in which you tell him. For instance, "It hurts me when you flirt with waitresses when we're out. If you do it again, I'm going to respect myself by leaving the restaurant and coming home. I just want you to know that." And then...nothing. Don't get sucked into the "I don't do that" or "why are you so uptight" or "Wow...that's mature" or whatever he says to hook you into a fight and put you on the defensive. Just state the behaviour you won't tolerate, the consequence if he violates, and then...zip. Nothing. And then FOLLOW THROUGH if he violates those boundaries.
So make sure the consequence is something you will follow through with. It isn't about the severity of the consequence but the inevitability. It isn't about punishing him, it's about respecting yourself and keeping yourself emotionally safe. It's about boundaries.
Firstly I need to share some devastating news. My almost 13 year old nephew died suddenly on the 6th of January. He was my sister's son and more than a cousin to my children. He was one of two 'matching children' my sister and I had - my daughter and this boy were only four months apart and my kids all played with him all the time. We are all in absolute shock and devastated for my sister, her husband and two kids.
ReplyDeleteMy husband was so shaken, so sad, really stepped up to the mark, was connected, spent time with the boy's brother, helped out in every way he could, understood deeply the every way connection with a wider family. Whereas the affair and subsequent stupid dalliances and inappropriate conversations have been about him, his depression, his entitlement and selfishness, this showed him the value of true family connection, It has helped us at one level.
However we'd been in counselling after me discovering more deception and inappropriate, stupid friendships moving up to a line, similar to those described in the post.
Like the others I'd spent too long (in the four years since D-day trying to explain what this action had done, what it had done to me, what I needed, what ways he needed to make me safe and I'd been met with defensiveness, more deception, excuses, reasons, and downright disrespect as he dealt with triggers badly, went back to porn, decided to invite single women to lunch (one of whom fancied him) and talk to them about his marriage. (The last, very recent, only September). I’d come to the point where I was not accepting any of it any more. We went to counselling and she referred him on to personal counselling (but since Christmas got in the way and this awful tragedy he has not been yet – so still a limbo situation.) He got help for his depression.
This terrible tragedy with my nephew is a great weight pressing on my chest, I had a physical pain in my heart. We carry all these shocks and stresses in our bodies. I had come to the point where I would no longer wait for my husband to tell me I mattered. It was important that he changed his ways and did everything he could and I’m still waiting to see if he can achieve that. But I will also observe and see whether or not he has it in him to answer to the devastation that he laid at my feet, that betrayal of our connection and me as a person. He needs to show me that he knows who I am, not because I need his approval but so that I know he is not just having a relationship with himself and his own selfish viewpoint. As you can imagine, with this huge loss of my lovely nephew (and he was such a beautiful, cheery, friendly boy) I feel very disappointed that, before this, I and the family indirectly had been put through such unnecessary pain and hardship through his actions. And aggrieved that four years on he had not got himself sorted out and continued to inflict pain. He is a very mixed up man, depressed yes, for many good reasons and stresses, entitled and arrogant from family patterns and as a counter to self-hatred. He is a good man too and loving and kind but something in him keeps him cutting himself off and hurting us.
Now I am strong, disappointed, hurt, shocked, sad, hurting for my sister and all the family members. It is up to my husband to salve the hurt he has cause and offer reparation once he sees can he be who he needs to be for us. Now I will watch and see what he comes up with but move forward myself if he does not get there.
Fragments of Hope, I am so so sorry for your entire family and for the world's loss of a far-too-young boy. I can't imagine the pain you're all in.
DeleteI hope you'll continue to practice your radical self-care (modelling also to your kids how important it is, especially when dealing with pain, to take care of yourself and to give yourself the space and time to feel it, to not push it away or move forward too fast) and I wish you the strength too to show up for your sister and her kids.
I've no doubt that your huge heart can carry this and help others too.
I hope your husband has the courage and the integrity to do the same. For your sake and for his.
Fragments of hope
DeleteI’m so sorry to hear of your new pain! I can’t imagine how hard this is with regards to your nephew! I know how you feel about him being so close with you and your children! I’m like that with one of my nephews that I became closer to following the death of my sister and his mother. I just wanted you to know that I’m here reading this and sending prayers for comfort for you and your family. I think we’re all here sending you hugs!
Fragments, so sorry for your loss. Losing a young teen like that with so much promise is so hard. Your kids have lost an important member in their tribe. I’m sure this is very hard for you to see your sister suffer as well. Wish we could lift the pressure on your heart. Hugs and prayers for all.
DeleteI know of a family that also lost a young boy unexpectedly. If there is one thing I’ve learned from her is that people refrain from saying his name or talking about him, for fear it will cause her pain. He’s in her thoughts each minute of the day and she welcomes a shared experience that someone had with her son or the reminder that someone also misses him. She loves to hear his name and stories. People just tend to not know how to handle another’s grief so ignore or dismiss it so things aren’t awkward. After the funeral people also tend to forget to reach out and check in. Hoping all of you have some good supporters that continue to check in.
I’m also very sorry we share the pain of inappropriate continued communications with misc women. The loss of time that the affair fallout brought on and took me away from my aging parents, my teens and my livelihood. This time wasted weighs heavy on me as well. It’s so stupid to think of the months, turning to years that have been a major interruption. Life is so short, as the passing of your nephew clearly shows. Time needs to be spent wisely in my mind from here on out. I pray your H is committed to change so that you can focus on what’s important - YOU & your family.
Fragments of Hope,
DeleteI am so sorry for your loss. Your wise words on this site have so often been a blessing to me -- how I wish I could reach out with a real hug at times like these. Know that you & your nephew are in the loving thoughts of women all over the world right now.
FOH,
DeleteI'm so sorry for the tragic loss your family is experiencing. When you talked about your H needing to show that he knows who you are so that you'll know he's not just in a relationship with himself... That is such a great way to word it. I feel that way myself about my H, and I'm always looking for that evidence too. I hope you find it and that you get all the support and care from your H that a person can get. If he's not able, I know are strong enough to see that too. Hugs to you!
FOH - I am so very sorry for the loss of your sweet nephew. You have been on my mind since reading your note yesterday. No words. Holding you and your family close in thoughts today. (Hugs)
DeleteFOH, so awful, I'm so so sorry that this unspeakable thing has happened. I'm crying with you and your children and all your family and holding you all in my heart. I pray that you all get the time and space you need to grieve and grieve some more. All my love, SS1
ReplyDeleteFoh, thoughts and prayers with you and your family at this extremely difficult time xx
ReplyDeleteFOH there are no words, I am so so sorry. Yes, use his name--like Heartfelt said--people are afraid to say the name in case the parent or family THEN starts thinking about their boy--the reality is, they have never stopped. Much love to you in this unthinkable time.
ReplyDeleteFragments, I'm so very sorry. My heart is so sad for you. There is no greater loss. I would go through 50 blindsided affairs then the loss of my child. My nephew is very important to me and I cannot put myself in your shoes. Please take care of yourself hun. Big hugs.
ReplyDeleteBlindsided.
Thanks so much ladies. My sister and family and ourselves are working through it as well as possible. I live around the corner from them and my parents were visiting for Christmas so we were all there to meet them in their house when they came home from the hospital having lost him. And we grieved with them and were present in their house every step of the way since then. He was laid out in the house on what would have been his thirteenth birthday and people came from all over the country to pay their condolences, the local people have gathered around them to offer meals and any help. An outpouring of love at a time of shock and sorrow.
ReplyDeleteFragments - continue to think about you. Hope the days and pain are becoming a bit more manageable. Do
DeleteCan I ask you ladies a question? How much time should a married couple with 20-plus years together spend together? And Define quality time together? If any of y'all have read some of my post you'll see that my husband has denied that anything happened. I don't if anything physical happen but they were talking a lot through text messages. He goe'd to events and stay's sometimes for 2 or 3 days at a time sometimes the same place she was at and talk through text messages while they were there. I always stay home and take care of the family and the animals and I work so I can't always go. Well through all of this he has denied that anything happened and it was just talk and that he loves me more than anyting. I never seen this coming I thought I was number one to him but I guess I wasn't he's number one to himself and that's it. Well anytime I try to talk and tell him my feelings he gets all mad bent out of shape and we will end up in a fight so I just don't say anything but sometimes when he goes to hang out with his buddies I get a look of being upset on my face and he asked what's wrong and when I tell him " I thought he was going to stay home with me tonight and spend time with me " he gets all bent out of shape. But he still goes. I help out with a little old lady the other day I was with her from 1 until 4 at the doctor's office and then from 4 to 9 at the hospital I got home right about 10 he goes hangs out with his buddies all week long but he stayed home the night that I was gone. Oh he offered to come to the hospital if I wanted him to, but I thought we weren't going to be there very long. I really don't know what I need to do. I mean for the last week he has stayed home 2 nights. 1 with me and 1 when I was gone. I'm pretty certain if something were to happen to me he probably wouldn't give a shit ...but i bet he'd still go out with his buddies. I feel lost and alone.
ReplyDeleteFor 20-plus years I have done everything for this man.
I've written letters and told him I get lonely when he's gone and I'm home alone.
I've bought candy conversation hearts and left some in his truck with a note that I hand picked these certain hearts cause they make me think of him... They were in his truck for a week before he read the note.. And only cause I asked if he seen it ...
How do we get past this ?? He refuses to go to therapy.
Have you been to therapy? Even if he won’t go it would be helpful for you. My husband is in the mental health field and did not want to go. It has worked out so far but that is a unique situation.
DeleteIt sounds like you have a lot to work out with him. And he does not understand how he has hurt you. And honestly it might sound dumb but intimate texting could mean more than sex with someone. I think emotional affairs and connections can be as hard or worse than physical. In generall I feel they deny or limit how bad it is. In the end if they face that they have to accept what they have done. This can be hard and take a long time. Or for some people they have not grasped the reality of the situation.
My husband did a lot of what you are describing before dday. Always occupying his time with others. His friends, parents, work etc. he tells me now it was too painful to be around me since he was so guilty. You are making great efforts but it seems like he is not accepting those.
I think every marriage is different. Before dday we spent less time together. Now i know it was since if we wAtched tv or a movie and cheating came up fhen he felt bad. Now most nights we spend hanging out. I would say 3-4 times a month he will go watch a game or golf etc. he has thought a lot About this. Before dday he said he lived his life only for himself. He would leave the house and it was as if he was not married or a father. Now he puts us first when deciding what to do and he is the happiest he has ever been.
I think if is possible to get through this but only if he wants to be on the same team as you. Get a therapist and have them help you make a plan and set some boundaries.
FOH, I'm so sorry for your families loss. Many prayers and hugs
ReplyDeleteThanks Izzy xx
DeleteIzzy I have one question for you, why are you still waiting for change. I’d have kicked his butt out a long time ago. This guy is giving you every reason to get rid of him. I appreciate youve been together for 20 years, has he always gone out with his mates or is this just happening recently? I know you’ve asked him to stay in with you, he’s not listening, what’s the next step?. You either tell him what you want and if he doesn’t deliver you show him the door or you carry on like this for another 20 years. This guy does not get to choose what happens he had an inappropriate relationship with another woman. Izzy if I was you I’d be seeking a Counsellor for myself to get myself to a place where I am confident enough to make some decisions in my marriage. It’s not going to be easy Izzy but from what I’m hearing you sound so unhappy in your marriage.start focusing on you Izzy, self care overload is what you need to be able to figure out what you want.. small steps Izzy . Let us know how you get on .. we’re right behind you xxx
ReplyDeleteSam A. I want to make sure I try everything to save my marriage because I still love him. I knew when we started seeing each other that he went out and done things with his guy friends . But once we started getting serious he stopped. And we spent all our spare time together. Fast forward a few years one of his friends asked him to go hunting. I told him he should go cause he used to enjoy before. Well after that he started go with friends all the time. But he still always made time for me and still made me feel like I was # 1 . I used to go horse back riding every Saturday with a friend of mine and her husband. But she's moved away ( and I have No friends to go hang out with ) he has a lot of guy friends... They are always calling or texting. So even if we're home watching tv together his phone is still always going off. It's just since I discovered he was texting that whore that his going out with his friends has started bothering me. And I wouldn't mind if he'd just spend more time with me. I mean 1 day out of 7 ?
DeleteI've always loved and gave 110% and I always wanted to be married just once forever. But my 1st H was a cheater. And after 10 yrs and 2 kids we divorced. Then I found my knight in shinning armour. I've given him the best yrs of my life. We have been so far together and I still love and am still in love with my H that I want to work things out.
Hi Izzy I understand you want your marriage to work, the question is does he. I think there has to be some boundaries in place for you to feel safe. Just from my own experience Izzy I realised that once I started to stop giving a damn about my h and putting all the energy into taking care of me, my life felt so much better. I realised that I would be just fine on my own and was able to enforce boundaries to protect myself. You’ll know when enough is enough Izzy, xx
ReplyDeleteIzzy are you able to come to the retreat that is currently being planned? Xx
ReplyDeleteWhere & when ? I work , so it's kinda hard to get away sometimes. Just depends on what's happening from week to week.
DeleteWe are in the process of identifying a common place for everyone. It would be lovely to meet up Izzy, you’ll have lots of notice so you can work around work commitments.. the more the merrier I say : ) xx
ReplyDelete