We're all middle-aged. Married. Parents.
And then one woman began telling a story.
Her story was about a husband. Not the one she's with now but one that we'd never heard of before. She'd married at 19 in the country she's from. There was abuse. Infidelity. Broken bones and broken promises.
She'd disclosed all this to underscore a point she was trying to make. That certain people are simply scum. Irredeemable. Monsters.
I've never been abused. But I have been cheated on. And maybe it's not the same. I have no bones thick at the broken spots.
But though I'm not for a second dismissing my friend's experience as anything less than devastating (and potentially deadly), I don't believe that, except for rare exceptions, people are irredeemable.
A visitor to this site over the weekend wrote that she hadn't considered that her husband was hurting too. And it does seem counter-intuitive, doesn't it? We imagine someone cheating as having the time of his life. Two women! The romance! The sex! The ego boost!!
So it's shocking when our husbands sometimes describe relief when the affair is discovered and ended. It floors us to learn that the affair was stressful, that the OW was demanding and unpleasant, that the sex was mediocre.
Why in the hell would anyone risk their marriage for that?
Well...it's complicated.
But it often boils down to someone unable or unwilling to explore his own pain. Someone who's long been a master at avoiding his feelings, at distracting himself, at distancing.
Often these guys are jerks. Some feel entitled, marinating in a patriarchal culture. Others genuinely fall in love though they don't always fall out of love with their wives, though, statistically, they are by far the minority.
Most are guys who lose themselves in the opportunity and start to believe their (and the other woman's) bullshit. Nobody appreciates them. Life has let them down. They deserve more. They deserve better.
Sometimes it goes a lot deeper than that. Old stuff, long buried, has a way of surfacing in our mid-life. The ways in which our parents let us down, or painful/traumatic experiences weren't processed.
A friend's husband, always the life of the party, is now revealing the pain of traveling the world as an ambassador's child, always having to make new friends, never staying in one country for long. It has always been framed as this exciting life. The truth is it was lonely and isolating. And it taught him that relationships were disposable. Easy to leave behind.
Another friend's husband returned from a tour of Afghanistan. Proud of the work he'd done to deliver water to villages, to build schools for girls, he nonetheless had experienced trauma. And rather than deal with it, he sought distraction in another woman, equally traumatized by an abusive husband.
Hurt people hurt people.
It might sound trite but it holds truth.
I doubt my friend's first husband was an irredeemable monster. He was more likely a hurt person who hurt people.
That is by no means a reason to stay with someone. When we are being hurt, physically or emotionally, it is incumbent on us to keep ourselves and our children safe. That is our very first step.
But if we are to repair a relationship with someone willing to do the hard work of excavating his own pain to better understand and to ensure it doesn't drive more hurtful behaviour, then we need to acknowledge his pain too.
It isn't worse than ours. And it doesn't offer him an excuse to continue to hurt.
But it does give us a glimpse into what drives someone to make choices that even they are baffled by.
Everyone's pain matters, of course. Yours take priority. And while it's part of his responsibility to help you heal, the reverse is not necessarily true. You can support his healing but it is HIS responsibility to sort out why he cheated.
All so true and well said. It was the big surprise for me in this recovery process. It took a while and was a process for me to get to this point in thinking. Once I realized exactly what you are writing about in this post it allowed me to really move forward. So much good info!
ReplyDeleteI will never forget the pain I witnessed in my husband when he finally told me the truth about his year long affair with a unstable nightmare of a woman. Their affair was not happy. It was full of manipulation, on both their parts. In the moment he was telling me, my own pain didn't even register because his pain completely filled the room. I try to remember the state he was in when I'm gripped with my own pain and when I wonder if it's worth it to stay with this idiot.
ReplyDeleteMy husband said that he was glad that he told me it was relief. That way I could help him get rid of her. She and her friends were very demanding. Calling him all hours of the day demanding that he leave me. The affair was about 10 days long. The OW was so caught up in her fantasy of what her life was going to be like that she really lost touch with reality. But I think that the manager of the restaurant we worked at encouraged that fantasy, had her convinced that my h had feelings for her even though he never did. It's amazing that not only our h are hurting but things in these women's lives showed nothing but hurt too. I guess growing up on an Indian Reservation those people carry that hurt generation after generation.
Deleteyeah, there's a whole lot of research coming out about intergenerational trauma, whether for Indigenous people, Holocaust survivors or any other systemic violence.
DeleteThat, of course, hardly makes it okay and it sounds as though you were traumatized by their treatment of you. I understand your husband's desire to have you help him with this but -- wow -- that's quite an ask, isn't it?
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DeleteI got a little carried away with what I had written before. Sometime I just need to get it off my chest. I can understand now why he did it but at that time I couldn't. He had just gotten out of the hospital. He felt shame and embarrassment and no matter what he said to her she wouldn't leave him alone. She wasn't taking no for an answer. Until he threatened her with legal action.
DeleteOn twitter they talked about limerence. I listened to what that Joe Beam had to say on youtube too. I think that this is what the OW felt and it was becoming such an obsession for her that she couldn't see through the fantasy. Infidelity runs rampant on this Reservation. It's truly part of their culture or so it seems. She didn't live on the Reservation. But she was still looking for some escape, even though the fiance she left was white and he gave her everything she wanted but a baby. And I think that too was a factor in her fantasy. I didn't show the dignity that all of you have towards the OW or infidelity itself. I dealt with "racism on a different level" and had to deal with the mental stigma on top of that with my h and my daughter.
My now ex husband is not an irredeemable monster. He's definitely trying??? and yet still cluelessly selfish, still worried about the appearance of things. And while his pain is no longer my concern, in fact, when he tries to still talk to me about it, whether its money fears or not understanding what is up with the kids (you left them, asshole, that's what is up with them), my response now is mostly about boundaries and frustration that he doesn't understand that I am not going to continue to do the job he so blithely fired me from. So screw him and his pain. He chose it. In the early days post dday, I knew he'd have to deal with that better than he did. I was prepared to make space for it. He chose a different path, I think, without fully realizing what he was choosing. He was so lost in all that un-dealt-with pain you mention above. He's still just flailing. But. Instead of just dismissing him as a selfish idiot, I recognize that he is a deeply wounded child, who had shitty role models, and who, for whatever reasons, still hasn't completely figured it out.
ReplyDeleteSo while I see that with some degree of compassion and even empathy, his flailing has so wounded me, that I need his BS as far from me as possible. My current eyes, that see my self as so much more worthy of love and belonging (and not only if I am thin, or pretty, or perfect etc. etc.) look back at our marriage and I'm kind of bewildered by the lack of care and regard. But it happened over time. He just took himself away over the course of years and blamed me for it instead of looking inward. I found some old pictures of my kids as babies. I can feel the difference, even from the first and second child, emanating from the photos. Him holding the first, changing her diaper. Him rolling on the floor with the second, but already more vacant. I can remember a time with the second, my ex was outside with the kids while I was inside doing dishes. There was a swing and one of those tiny wading pools. I look out the kitchen window which overlooked the yard. My toddler daughter is in the swing. My tiny son is face down in the pool floating and my now ex is asleep in a lawn chair, very likely due to a hangover. I open the window and shout and then run outside. When I get there, he's got our son, who is fine and breathing. It must have been a matter of only seconds. But holy shit. I don't dare think through all the what ifs. But how did I not see it then. I excused it because my son was fine and my ex must have been so, so tired. How did I not see it? And he got further and further away from there.
He recently wrote me a short apology. He had wanted to tell me, but Elle suggested I ask for it in writing so I didn't have to deal with it face to face. Good call. He apologized for choosing to have an affair and for causing me to go through all the shame and horror etc. It somehow doesn't feel like enough. It feels like he is apologizing for one point in time and not for the five years of other stuff he was getting up to, or for the years of compulsive porn usage, or for the years neglect. In it he does not say "this was my fault" so while he does say it was his choice, it doesn't pass the sniff test. I can almost catch the scent of "still somewhat blaming me" in the absence of owning it. He said so many awful things to me post dday and in fake marriage counseling, how am I going to think otherwise? And there's no attempt at making amends, as far as I can tell. Not in the letter anyway. Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit right now, but the thing is, I gave him extra credit he did not deserve for years and years. Now he's got to earn it for real. Maybe our kids, at least, will benefit from the effort. If he makes it. If its not just another flash in the pan. If its not just the latest mask.
SS1,
DeleteI completely get that recognizing their pain doesn't mean we need to even have sympathy for it. But it is a way of releasing ourselves from the blame. Their shitty behaviour is on them. We can understand that it's rooted in their own pain but we certainly aren't responsible for it. Those, like you and I who grew up with such dysfunction, are groomed to "fix". If somebody's hurting, then it's on us to make things better. Screw that. That where our work comes in -- to be able to see others' pain without stepping in.
I suspect your husband's apology doesn't sit right with you because he's, consciously or more likely not, trying to worm his way back into your good graces. He needs your fixing. And without it, he can't quite figure out why his life isn't working for him. If he can recast himself as something of a good guy then it's easier to blame other people for the state of his life.
But...not your problem.
SS1,
Delete"He just took himself away over the course of years and blamed me for it instead of looking inward." This is the truest, simplest explanation for exactly what happened to me too. Thank you for putting that into words for me. My H has changed a lot, but I still see him doing this when he's stretched really thin and stressed... looking at me as the source of his discomfort. I call him out on it now and he points to his real issue ("I'm still mad about the garage door and I'm taking it out on you. I'm sorry.") What stops me cold now is when he says in an angry tone, "I guess I'm wrong again. Everything I do is wrong."-- it's just another way to blame me. I've found leaving the conversation and coming back the next day is best at that point. Anyway, it is exhausting. This blaming is a coping strategy that I know was created to spare his ego. It is hard to unlearn. In times of stress we can both go back to those old ways despite how sorry we are and what our intentions are i guess. LOVED your sentence.
ann, I'm glad it resonated. It's this thing that men are taught, I guess, that it is OK to blame other people in their lives for their shit rather than be accountable for it themselves. We are all taught to go along with whatever spares their egos. It's exhausting.
DeleteAnd Elle, thank you. That's an interesting perspective. I'm not sure why, after all the years of lack of regard or care, he suddenly needs or wants to be back in my good graces. The fixing part I get. I was responsible for keeping everything OK for so long. I started noticing it in action post dday. In the early days, when I fell apart a lot, things just ground to a halt. I had to run out of the kitchen on night while cooking dinner because I just started uncontrollably crying. He had to take over and it did not go well. The kids were upset and didn't quite know why, homework didn't happen, shit that needed to get into bags for the next day was a scramble. No snacks, and all kinds of other shit that used to go on while he sat and watched episodes of Deadliest Catch and Goldrush (worst show ever). And he doesn't need help blaming other people for the state of his life. That's been his MO since the dawn of time almost. Especially the women in his life, perhaps because he had such dysfunctional yet dominant women in it early on. He even blames his daughter at times and I'm like dude you are the adult, are you really telling me a 16 year old MADE you buy that stupid, expensive car? Therapy was hard this week, but I did some good stuff. Learning to resist that urge to make everyone else ok at my own expense is a big task.
Elle - thank you for the links to other posts that relate to the current post. I went through and read from old to new in the days following DDay but I didn't read comments. I think I'm like a lot of women who come here - we find hope in your story. But there are days when I read your current day version and think to myself "I'm just not that strong." It's the double edge sword - hope that one day I'll feel normal again and be able to be a light for others again ... and yet also that fear of not.
ReplyDeleteThis comment - made 7 years ago - I wish I could have read it last June when my world fell apart again. Because this nagging feeling of "I should have left" ... it's what I battle with the most. But what you replied to another BW ... it gives me hope again. That if you felt like this too - and now you're thankful and proud that you didn't ... maybe I can too.
"I was TERRIFIED of losing the marriage. TERRIFIED of losing my kids. I was so afraid of what I might lose...that I hung on for dear life. And I think I focussed on saving the marriage instead of saving myself.
It's in hindsight that I wish I'd actually left, though likely temporarily. I wish I'd given myself the space to truly determine whether this was something I could get past...and gain the courage and confidence to know that I would be okay on my own. I know that now...but I think it took me longer to get there...and here we are still putting our marriage back together. "
Kimberly,
DeleteIt can be hard for me to remember those feelings because I feel so differently now. I do remember the fear, absolutely. It kept me stuck a long time. Afraid to stay, afraid to go, so afraid that I might "wreck" my kids. Fears are never based in anything concrete -- they're always this vague boogieman lurking in the shadows.
As for strong?? I spent a whole lot of time curled up on my bathroom floor, sobbing into my dog's fur. I felt crazy and wanted to die. I came very close to driving myself to a psych hospital because I didn't trust myself. So please PLEASE know just what a mess I was.
But...here I am. Stronger than I thought I was. Braver than I thought I was. Storms make better sailors, right? We don't know what we're capable of until we do it. You are stronger than you know you are. You are braver than you know you are. How do I know this? Because you keep showing up, doing the work, keeping your heart open. Whatever you decide Kimberly, you will be okay. Start with respecting yourself enough to insist on what you deserve -- honesty, compassion, kindness, loyalty.
You can leave, if you want. There is no statute of limitations on infidelity. You can leave today or you can leave five years from now. Each day it's a choice: Do I want to be here? Am I valued here? Am I respected here? Do I see things getting better, even incrementally? It's particularly hard with kids because we have to take their needs into account. But they should never be witness to a relationship in which one partner is disrespected and unvalued by the other.
Hang in there, Kimberly, whether "there" is in your marriage or not. Trust me, I'm not the poster child for grace through infidelity. I crawled on my hands and bloody knees to get here.
This entire thing is so hard. And I feel like aspects might be hard forever. I am in a really good spot. It has taken four years but it is still constant work. I will say my version of strong is different now than pre dday. I feel like from the moment he told me I have been strong. And sometimes it is crying, blurting something out, other times deciding not to bring something up, focusing on what I need to, making a demand for what I want. It takes all forms. I still get anxious when I am 100% honest with my husband about if he is making plans with his friends for example. I will say I do not like the situation. I still get tons of anxiety. Every single time he thanks me for telling him. Then I think I am glad I was strong and did not keep quiet. We cannot do this together otherwise. For me Elle told me over and over to just focus on today or the next thing I had to do. Looking back and forward was overwhelming to me and sent my mind to a not good space. I still use her suggestions now.
DeleteAnd I have no idea what normal is. My husband is in the mental health field and he said the most over used word people use is that. There is no normal. I really focus on each and every moment and look for the little glimmers of hope.
Great post Elle, really really good. As you said, an affair is all about sex and escape. You meet, you have sex and leave. That about sums it up. It is not a relationship. They didn't go together and pick out a puppy. They didn't work on that house project. They didn't do anything that forms relationship building. Like SS1 husband is on his 2nd non-relationship. They really didn't do anything except sex. He said what was necessary to get sex and so did she. The reasons behind this is many as Elle describes above. Not an appealing relationship to me. Avoiding life, distractions and especially avoidance is what jumped out from this post. My H says he was really a coward. Out of all shitfests in my life, my H was the only person I experienced seeing a redemption. Somebody ask me this week, how is it going, you are over 5 years out now. I said, good but my soul still feels numb. I love my kids and grandkids without question. But everyone else, I feel numb about. That is ok with me. I think this coincides with me thinking unconditional love is bullshit and leveling out my emotional highs and lows. Unconditional anything does not exist. So when that rug is pulled out, I'm left with numb. I'm happy, not faking it anymore. But deep within me just feels plain numb. I'm not complaining, I have just learned to live with out all that happy ending, love at first site, promises, prince charming crap. It is just me and always has been. I'm getting comfortable with that.
ReplyDeleteLLP bless you for "Like SS1 husband is on his 2nd non-relationship." I need to hear that sometimes, still. I'm hoping someday to get to the point where his antics no longer register, but for now it's helpful to have an outside, wise perspective that reminds me he's still acting out on his same old shit. TY
DeleteLLR, your post touched my heart. In June I will be four years out from D-day. I have adult kids and a bunch of grand kids too. I am still with my husband. He is living an authentic life and doing everything he would have benefited from and missed out on these past 40 years due to his own messed up thinking and actions. While I experience great joy and happiness much of the time I also find myself sometime feeling emotionally numb when it comes to my husband. I don't hate him but I definitely do not feel anything even close to how I felt about him up to the minute he confessed to a life of debauchery. It is so hard still. He has always been able to compartmentalize his life so even now, his 35 years of cheating, porn, etc are tucked away inside some steel box. The person I see and who is living this new life is friendly, helpful, mostly thoughtful, and much more outgoing than ever before. I'd date this new guy in a heartbeat. I'm "treating" the numbness with a lot of self-talk about this "new" guy I'm with. I remember that old guy too well so really not trusting this new guy yet but I working hard to embrace this new reality. I don't have compartments so when triggers happen as they do on a daily basis unless I'm off all technology, I acknowledge those feelings, thoughts and emotions and ask them to leave so I can go back to whatever it was that I was doing when I was so rudely interrupted. I have no idea how my husband does it but he seems to be able to live his life as if he never, ever did anything wrong. He just shut that door and moved on. Just like he did to me and the kids all those years. My husband had no relationship with his prostitutes or massage whores. Get it done and get back to the family. "He just took himself away over the course of years and blamed me for it instead of looking inward." per SS1. That is basically what my spouse did and he knows it now. Whatever was going on inside him was so ugly and scary that he could not look at it, talk to me about it or ask about it. It was just easier to go buy sex. He owns all of it 100%. He blamed me very early on but quickly realized that none of it was my fault. None of it. So here we are. Things are better. I also have come to grips with the shattering of my fairy tale marriage. It is just your average marriage with a lot of worse than average trauma thrown in but I'm still here and I've no plans to change it up. I've also forgiven myself for choosing him because by the time I met him, he had polished his mask of perfection and Mr. Moral compass so that it shone brightly. I'm no longer fooled by glittery things.
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ReplyDeleteInfidelity is a form of emotional abuse. You have been abused. You choose to try to forgive your abuser because he was supposedly "hurting". That is your choice to make and I hope it works for you. I choose not to forgive and don't give a damn what motivated my husband to abuse me. People who are amoral enough to do that will not be accepted into my life. Regardless of whether one chooses to forgive or not, let's call it what it is. He knew that when you found out, it it would devastate you, but he continued, so it's abuse. He knew that his inattentive behavior during his affair hurt you, yet continued it. Abuse. He knew he was taking away your right to make a free choice about your own life by not telling you the truth. Abuse. He knew that every time he had sex with you it was without informed consent on your part. Abuse. Any way you look at it, it was a deliberate choice to do something inherently harmful.
ReplyDeleteI'm so sorry for the pain you've gone through. You certainly don't need to convince anyone here that infidelity is devastating.
DeleteThis issue of infidelity as abuse is a debate that often rages within these circles and I've written about it before. In fact, many years ago, I had a guest poster -- a rabbi -- argue that it's abuse. Of course, that sensibility would apply to any sort of behaviour that harms a partner. Addiction, for instance. Reckless spending, perhaps. And yet, I personally don't necessarily consider those "abuse". Harmful, absolutely. Damaging.
What's more, I think a lot of people who cheat DON'T actually anticipate the devastation of the partner. I spoke with Caroline Madden, a therapist who works with cheaters and who says that most of them are utterly shocked at the devastation their partners experience. Many really believe that their partner is no longer interested in them. They genuinely think it's something of a 'don't ask, don't tell' situation. Much of Esther Perel's work supports this as well.
I'm not making excuses for cheaters and neither does Perel or Caroline Madden. Infidelity causes much harm. But I don't think we do the conversation or our relationships any favours by refusing to recognize the many shades of grey.
If you choose to see infidelity as abuse, that's your prerogative. I do hope you're able to heal from this and move forward.
As you point out, forgiving or even just choosing to rebuild a marriage with the same person is a choice. And I hope you can respect the choices of the many many women on this site who've chosen to stay in their marriage and rebuild.
We each walk our own path toward healing, Anonymous. I wish you all the best on yours.
Perel, IMO, is a charlatan. She makes her living as a cheater apologist and none of what she says is based on genuine research. They are simply her personal beliefs. As for Madden, I don't know her work but anyone who believes what known liars say to excuse their conduct is not a reliable source. Of course cheaters know betrayal by somebody you love is devastating. We all know that. Unless they have been living in a cave, everyone has either been betrayed in some way, seen it happen to somebody they know, has read about it in a novel or seen it in a film, or at least imagined what it would be like. The belief that they are clueless about the hurt it causes doesn't make sense at all. I suggest you not buy into what people who have made lying a lifestyle say, even to their therapists. As for believing their partners are no longer interested, that is often simple projection. They are no longer interested in the partner (often because of the affair itself) and to make themselves feel better about their rejection of their former beloved, they project it onto the partner. Plus, there's an ethical solution to it if they truly believe they are not loved. It's called divorce. I was given that sort of lame excuse by my cheater at first, that he thought I didn't love him. There was actually plenty of proof that I loved him deeply and he never bothered to ask me how I felt about him. He now admits he was projecting in order to feel like less of a bastard for wanting to leave me.
DeleteSo no, I'm not buying into any of the tired old cheater lies or the theories of pro-reconciliation therapists and self-styled "relationship experts" who make a living trying to urge couples to stay together. They have a vested interest in believing cheaterspeak nonsense.
I can certainly respect the choice to stay. I don't know the person's situation so I'm not in a position to have an opinion about it. Every situation is unique. What I object to is not staying, it's practicing denial and self-delusion to enable staying. I believe that to be the case with betrayed spouses who stay in situations that are clearly toxic for them. This is often due to a trauma bond and needs to be addressed in individual therapy, not marriage counselling. I believe MC can be destructive to betrayed spouses. I've heard so many stories where the BS has been blamed and shamed for the affair by unscrupulous practicioners and came out of MC even more traumatized than before.
We certainly agree on that. Nobody should stay in a relationship that is toxic for them. None of us, including Perel or any other expert I cite (and Perel is absolutely an expert. She has decades of experience working with people and backs it up with significant research) advocate for anyone staying in a relationship that's toxic and unhealthy. But, and here's where we part ways it seems, I've remained in my relationship. It is a wonderful marriage. We have three incredible children. The pain I worked through and the willingness of my husband to finally deal with a lot of his pain is what brought us here. And this is where I want to be.
DeleteWhich is essentially what this blog is about. As I say, we each walk our own path. And nowhere in the post above am I advocating for delusion or denial or staying in a toxic relationship. So I'm a bit baffled why you feel the need to make that point. It's the same point that is everywhere on this site. The choice is yours. Stay or go. But staying is NEVER about letting him off the hook. It's about giving him the chance to become a better man. It's about holding him accountable and expecting him to work through his own shit so that it no longer poisons the relationship.
As to your point re. MC, yes, I've heard those stories too and they're the product of counsellors who don't understand infidelity. The focus in MC must always be on the pain of the betrayed spouse first and foremost. The betrayer needs to work out his guilt/shame with an individual counsellor.
Again, I'm sorry for everything you've gone through. It sounds as though his betrayal and gaslighting and abandonment of you is still deeply painful. I hope you're able to find healing and peace. You're certainly welcome on this site -- there are many here who have chosen to leave or who have been left. There's room for all of us in this community, which centres compassion and support and a recognition that none of us can make decisions about how another person should respond.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI was wondering if any of you have any knowledge or advice for the W of a cheater that has had a lot of childhood abuse? If they treat me terribly but I know they are struggling deep deep down what should I do? They’ve given up on the marriage and are doing the usual things H’s do like change history and blame. How can I get them help? I thought our marriage counselling would help but it did not at all. I think we had the right person because her training is in marriage, infidelity and trauma. I’m not sure he is capable of getting help for himself. Avoid at all costs is his motto. Do I need to let go? He’s still in the affair.
Anonymous,
DeleteYou cannot save someone else, particularly someone who's unwilling at this point to save himself. What you can do is save yourself. If he's refusing to leave the affair and refusing to get help for his childhood abuse, then you cannot change that. We often talk on this site about controlling what we can control, which is ourselves. That's it.
If you're not already in therapy, I would urge you to find a counsellor who can support you as you separate. You deserve respect and honesty and he's incapable of either right now. So give it to yourself. If he's smart, he'll get help before he completely self-destructs.
I know how hard it is to watch someone you love hurt himself and refuse to recognize it. But he's an adult. It's not your job to fix him or get him help. It's your job to hold him accountable for his behaviour and refuse to allow mistreatment.