Maybe the only way to really respect love is to respect its limits and respect that it doesn't give you the power to change other people. That's why you can love someone and still choose to say good-bye to them. It's not really a question of whether you love them, it's whether they belong in your life.
~Tara Westover, author of the memoir Educated
Westover, if you haven't heard, is the bestselling author of a jaw-dropping memoir that details her highly dysfunctional childhood with fundamentalist parents (who are also, clearly, not well mentally) and an abusive brother. She's someone who has given love a lot of thought. And she has decided that, although she still loves her family, including her abusive brother, they are not in her life.
Her views aren't particularly radical. You wouldn't be on this site if you couldn't point to someone in your life whom you love but who hurt you.
But Westover's pragmatic approach – that she can love her family while drawing strong clear boundaries around what she will and will not tolerate in her life – is tough to enact. We tend to connect love with presence. If we love someone, we choose to be with them. Even if being with them is hurting us.
Which is why this quote resonated with me.
A whole lot of us grapple with whether or not to stay in a marriage affected by infidelity or leave. Few of us fall immediately out of love when we learn of our partner's cheating. Some of us are completely shocked when our response is unbridled physical desire for our husband.
Sometimes we need to let the proverbial dust settle. To process our pain. To receive the shattering.
And then...
Then we can take stock and ask ourselves some really tough questions:
•Is he doing the hard work of understanding why he risked everything that mattered for someone who didn't?
•Is he showing you that he deserves a second chance?
•Is being with him healing you or harming you?
Cause that's the big one, right? As Anne Landers used to put it: Is your life better with him in it or not? Perhaps not at this exact moment, when he forgot to put the toilet seat down YET AGAIN. But mostly. Is it mostly better?
Cause if it's not, and if it hasn't been for a long time, if the hurting far outweighs the healing, then Westover's words are for you.
You can love someone and still know that they don't deserve a place at your table.
The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
Elle, another excellent post and food for thought. For those of us whose husbands are doing the work and who do profess to love us and feel regret/remorse and promise to never do anything that will hurt us again, I must confess that the "bottom line" reasons for why my spouse did what he did still resonates poorly with me regardless of what the "professionals" in sex addiction promote as the effects of early trauma. "Do you know why you risked everything you had with me and our family to spend an hour with a whore?" The answers to that question are still hard to accept and believe. He knew fully that he risked everything yet chose to "act out". He says that now he knows why he chose that option and is aware of his feelings of failure as a man and a human being which led him to porn and prostitutes to confirm that he was a lousy human being. It is still a struggle for a non addict like me to understand all that thinking but I am grateful that where I am now, just two weeks from my 4 year D-day is a place I never thought I would be. My life is still much better with my husband in it and the new guy is doing a good job of proving his self-worth to me every day. Hanging in there with all you warrior sisters.
ReplyDeleteBeach Girl, I agree excellent post. Loved Educated. One thing I struggled/struggle with is I chose to have a relationship with this person. Family seems different to me. It comes with other issues but again you are born into it.
DeleteI feel the same as you Beach Girl and we are on a similar path with our husbands. My husband had no early trauma. and there is a long list of sort of explanations. He himself says he is not even the same person and that it was like a different life. He actually said it is like BC/AD. And dday was when it flipped for him. I struggle since my husband knew and admits he knew better and the destruction he was going to cause. He also said even then he never wanted to leave me, thought I was a great wife, mom etc. All it points to is that it really is all about him. He accepts that and works hard like your husband to take advantage of the second chance I have given him.
Beach Girl,
DeleteI started a reply to your post earlier and I lost it before I could post it. I feel very much like you do when it comes my husband’s reasons why. Like you, I have a husband who is very remorseful and has worked hard to turn himself around. I recognize that his childhood played a large role in the coping mechanisms he developed which then led to very poor choices later in life. But beyond that, one key element that I always circle back to is his selfishness. He always had a choice in the things he did and in most instances, he chose what best served him. It hurts to put that into words because it reminds me of where I stood with him for a very long time. That triggers feelings of shame for being so trusting, oblivious, tolerant, etc... And when I feel that I revert to being judgmental and feeling like I have to protect my heart, just in case.
But then I look at his actions over the past four years and i feel like sometimes I’m not being very fair to him. I think there’s a part of me that’s so tied to the thought that people can’t/don’t change that I miss what’s happening right in front of me every day. In some ways, I’ve allowed what happened to harden me and there are days where I see a negativity that I don’t really like.
I wish I had the type of personality where I didn’t try so hard to understand everything and could do a better job of living in the now. It takes a great deal of effort on my part, but I find myself much happier when I do.
Beach Girl and Hopeful -
DeleteSo much of what you have written resonates with me. And Elle too of course! I'm just kinda lost. I am just 4 years past D-day like you Beach Girl. Like Elle wrote he is doing all the "right things". And like Hopeful's H, he knew exactly what he was doing and he says he never wanted to leave this marriage. But I am still underneath it all so disgusted. I don't think he even has a clue. I am not used to being in this relationship without being 100% all in, but I am not. In the beginning right after I found out it was because I didn't want to open up to the hurt and now I think it is more that my love for him has changed so much. I don't know how to love with so much disgust. Our relationship is just so different now. Elle had written previously that there would never be closure and that freaks me out. I am a closure kinda gal. I keep asking myself would my life be better without him? I don't think so but who knows. And here is additional shame - I think I am afraid to find out. I know that is unhealthy. Part of me stays and smiles for FaceBook to cram it up the OW's dimply ass.
I know it is pointless to rehash all that had happened but sometimes a thought will flit through my mind and I am still right back at starting point one. Does this really get better? I want to talk to him about it but jeez how many times can I do that. I am tired of still feeling like a jack ass. I am tired of the shame. I am tired of thinking about the OW, his assistant, screwing my husband. It is all such a cliche. I swear it could be a hallmark movie.
Dandelion and Anon, I hear you loud and clear. I don't think I truly understood just how selfish and self centered my husband was until he blew up my life. It is so obvious to me now that he spent the majority of his life looking out for #1 and making sure #1 got what he wanted regardless of any fallout and I can now see how he covered his tracks and became so premeditated in getting his sexual compulsions taken care of. He is still selfish like that at times but he now recognizes it and calls it out to me. He lives his life very differently with me now and says that when he is away from me, regardless of what he is doing, he thinks about me and how I might be feeling/doing when he is gone (because of his sexual acting out history) so he texts me regularly and sends pictures just to make sure I know what's going on. I don't ask for this but he wants to prove to me that he is where he says he is going to be. I also am far quicker now to say, "No I don't want to do that, I want to do this" and stick to my guns because in the past I deferred to him. I sometimes still feel deep shame because I trusted him unconditionally to be the man he led me to believe he was and now he has to live with that knowledge every single day that he spent decades lying and cheating and now I know that too. Truth be told, I shold not feel shame for trusting him because I am honest and thought he was too. Anonymous, I am also deeply disgusted with my husband's choice of activities and my therapist worked really hard with me to help me deal with those feelings. They are not nearly as strong as they were but they are still there and he knows that sometimes I look at him and feel disgust and contempt but he earned that. And Anonymous, believe me that I have thought long and hard about what my life without him would look like and it would probably not be bad but I do enjoy his company and companionship now a lot more and we like to do the same things but he will never have 100% of my heart again. That's a given. I've made darn sure that I do what I want to do and that will bring me joy as often as possible. What you and I feel in the moment is up to us and my wish for you is that you can someday look at your spouse and think thoughts like I do. "I'm watching you like a hawk and I know what you are capable of regardless of whether you say you will never do that again or not." My new favorite statement to my husband and to myself to paraphrase Elle, "I trust that you know that any choice you make that crosses my boundaries is your choice to leave our marriage." Period. No question. Done. In layman's terms I'm saying, "Don't fuck this up buddy. You've got one precious chance to be a decent human being so act like you understand and appreciate this kindness I've extended to you." So far, he clearly appreciates this opportunity.
DeleteAnon, I hear you. All I can say is I try to listen to myself more than ever. For me that is taking time with no distractions 100% quiet and thinking what is really bothering me and what would help me feel progress/better. We were at this point a while ago. I honestly felt like I was back at day one or rehashing things over and over. We had a weekly meeting that was more driven by me topic wise. It really helped us. I still needed to process things. And honestly I think about everything in depth. He on the other hand is not phased by anything. He lets things go so easily and is the best at compartmentalizing things. He said to me the other week that we really are so different personality wise. But based on our weekly talk it made it easier for me to bring things up with him. It was the first time in 25+ years he was not defensive. I think part of it was he was mentally prepared. So I would throw out an issue or topic and literally sit in silence and just wait for him to talk. In the past I would say I was more emotional since I was bottled up and unprepared and would rant. But I adopted the saying talk less listen more. I would repeat that in my head even. And it has been amazing what he has told me and said to me. I never expected this to happen. We don't do that any more but I do tell him when things are an issue for me. We both agree for our marriage to be healthy we need to be able to talk to each other about this. It tends to be me feeling concerned or troubled by something and he is more laser focused than ever on us. I think it is good. He tells me all the time how even if he says nothing he thinks about what he did each day. For me at least sitting back and watching him change and listen to him has made me love him more. It is different. Not that sweet perfect love. But I realized that was never what it was. I do get sad that he made the choices he did. But in the end I realize that I am not sure I know anyone with that type of love/marriage/relationship. Based on my experience I would suggest asking yourself what do you need. For me taking action and at least having a plan always helps me feel better. My therapist said some betrayed spouses can never get over what happened and will never be the same. But my therapist said if there is still something there they support helping the relationship. This is a hard road!
DeleteDandelion, I relate to you also and your story. Interesting how we are all at a similar time in this process. I wish the same that I did not over think things so much. My husband and I were talking about how we process and think about things so differently. That is a continual focus for me trying to live in the now. I find myself more closed off to others. I have to work really hard at reaching out to others. I feel safest when I am alone. And I am more cynical about the world. I try to focus on my kids since they are such great people. It is also nice since they know nothing about his betrayal.
DeleteBeach Girl, I hear what you are saying about not being able to understand an addict's mind. I think sometimes we try to apply logic to a situation where logic is not in play. For people who have had difficult childhoods, for example, those lessons where we learned that we are not god enough continue to play out in our behaviors. It is a form of self sabotage, because the stories in our head tell us on repeat that we are not good enough and will never be good enough, so why bother. and we engage in self sabotage because even though it sucks, it is also safe, because it is familiar.
DeleteOne of the way I tune into what it might be like to feel like an addict is my own behaviors around food. Emotional eating is a form of addiction, in my mind. So let's say I've been "good" on a weight loss program. Eating all the right foods. Etc. and then all of a sudden I find myself at a party with cake. This is a trigger situation. My mind wants that cake. I know it is not good for me. I know I'll feel guilty afterward, but the impulse to eat it is really strong. Because there is not just a sugar hit, there is also an emotional hit, in the moment I eat that cake, that overrides the long term consequences. So I eat the cake. Then I feel bad, guilty, like a failure. Maybe I blow the cake all out of proportion because it ties into the shitty stories I already tell myself. And then because i already have "failed" I go into "fuck it, chuck it" mode and eat my face off. I mean I've already messed up, why don't I then indulge or eat more to try and make myself feel better. The thing going on here is all about a lack of awareness of the story I am telling myself about food and what it does and means and what I am using it for. I think the same is true for addicts. The emotional hit or escape in the moment overrides any logical ability to assess the long term impact and consequences. We all have blinds spots like this of some kind. It is when we become more mindful and learn to sit with the discomfort of those cravings (for cake for example) that we give ourselves time to make better choices. Just some thoughts from me into the inner workings of self sabotage and how that relates to addiction behavior.
Dandelion, I don't think wanting to understand and living in the now are necessarily mutually exclusive. They are not all or nothing propositions. Understanding, to me, is about making a narrative about what happened that makes sense, that I can accept and live with and, eventually, leave behind. That narrative is one of the reasons we come here to tell our story over and over and talk things through. It helps us put together the pieces, fill in the blanks.
DeleteI'm wondering if you can look at the idea that people can't/won't change and figure out where that originated. Somewhere long ago I bet. And I bet it kept you safe from something that you needed to be safe from at the time. But people change all the time. I bet you are not the same person you were four years ago. Non of us are the same people we were in our teens, or twenties. If people don't change, then addicts could not recover. Change for a person is often about learning self-forgiveness and self-compassion, in my opinion. When people get that their whole world shifts.
Anon June 4, I'm sorry you are struggling with these thoughts right now. It might help to give yourself permission to not be sure, to not be 100% all in, to take a wait and see attitude. And forgive yourself for being afraid to find out what life would be like without him. That is biggie and I think being afraid of that size of a change is totally rational.
DeleteBased on what I have seen in my years on this site, neither route is easier than the other. SO give yourself time to let things play out. Don't mistake the importance of the decisions ahead with urgency. You don't have to take any action until you are sure. And things will become clearer over time.
If you still feel disgust at what he's done (and I think that is totally OK, we all move through this on our own timeline. There is no magical "you will be over it by X date") have you considered getting into counseling for it. Because if I had to guess the degree that this is still causing you pain has to do with something you learned a long time ago. It resonates with some stories you are telling yourself about what happened. And if you are stuck, a qualified therapist, who understands trauma and family systems and infidelity, will be a champion in your corner to help you figure out what it is.
For now, just be gentle with yourself. And patient. You've got as much time as you need. Maybe you still need to do some grieving. As you pass through old stuff, often new things to grieve come up. That is definitely true for me at three plus years out.
Hopeful,
DeleteIt’s always good to hear that I’m not alone. I know we all travel this road in our own way but it seems sometimes that timeline is similar in when we experience what we experience.
Can I ask if you have a relationship with your in-laws? This is another struggle for me. My father-in-law passed away a few years after d-day and my mother-in-law relocated to be closer to us. I know you mentioned that your husband did not have childhood trauma, but do you ever wonder how much a role parenting played in his actions? My situation is different in that my husband’s childhood wasn’t great. But I question how much he was taught about right and wrong and how much of the selfishness came from watching his dad who was incredibly selfish and his mother who was completely subservient. I have a very hard time in my relationship with my mother-in-law. While I know she is not responsible for her son’s actions, I can’t help but feel sone resentment for his childhood and the emotional neediness that came from that. And while it’s getting better now, I still have occasional moments where I have to bite my tongue when she goes on and on about what a great husband/dad he is. He is now but she seems to be oblivious to the many years when he wasn’t.
SS1,
DeleteYou always have such a great perspective and I really appreciate your responses. As I was writing that post, I was wondering to myself why that perspective is so ingrained in me. The first thing that came to mind is that I come from a family of addicts. Alcoholism and drug addiction are part of my earliest memories. While neither of my parents were addicted, both grandfathers were alcoholics and numerous uncles and cousins struggled with substance abuse. I’m not sure I know of anyone who’s ever been in recovery for a sustained period of time. I’ve never seen what change looks like in the long term. And in my family those who were not addicts tended to enable. As I’m typing this out I’m remembering and argument I had with my grandmother while planning my wedding. I wanted to invite my great uncle (who struggled with alcohol) and his wife and my grandmother pitched a fit because alcohol would be served at the wedding. It was basically an ultimatum of don’t serve alcohol or don’t invite him. And I remember feeling like the responsibility for his sobriety was being put on me. It would be my fault if he drank because alcohol was available to him.
I’ll have to spend some more time thinking about al of this.
Thank you for this. I think you are right. I have not completed my grieving. He on the other hand would like to just move forward. Here is something. We talked last night. Did not go well. We haven't had one of these "types" of discussions in a long time. I asked the question - when did you first have sex with her? Low and behold he could not remember. Not even the month or if it was before or after Christmas. I call bullshit on this. Why do I want to know? It is my personality. I need to know. I have thought about it. Let it sit. There are some details I need to know. So him having amnesia on this most basic question - (I mean his decision was catastrophic and he cant even remember the month???) - makes me feel like I am being lied to again. What do you all think? Am I crazy?
DeleteSorry about the anonymous status - I can't figure out how to put my name on here.
Dan and Anon June 4th. you both are 4 years out. I read about "why" and both husbands are doing the work for reconciliation that is acceptable to you. You don't want to let the H off the hook, get away with it and no accountability. What have the H done AFTER the affairs? Have they done anything to prove their actions are an insincere recovery? Anon what has he done to show you he is not 100% into the marriage. You may feel, I'm just guessing here, but if you go on with your life then it is like it never happened. He had his fun and now gets all his family, love and stuff back. At some point this rehashing is not good for a marriage. (nether is an affair) My H said, "what is the point of changing me" when you still bring up the affair, like it is you go to reason for everything". Yes, thoughts flash through, yes you still think about the OW. yes and yes and yes to all of it. If your husbands are working hard to change, what else do you want them to do? I felt like you have is why I can say these things. It will go away for awhile but it is NOT like if never happened for either of us. If you leave then you will always wonder if you should have stayed. If you stay you will always wonder if you should have left. Be confused, broken, frustrated and sad, just be whatever you are right now and don't feel bad about it, this is you and worthy of these NORMAL emotions. In your heart, do you need what they are offering to you? When they say I love you does it just go in your ear or fall down to your broken heart. I recently yelled at my therapist HE DOESN'T DESERVE ME, HE DOESN'T DESERVE IT, HE DOESN'T DESERVE ANYTHING EVER| She ask me, "What does he deserve?" I said he deserves to be in a beat up truck alone in the desert all by himself". She said, "Do you really believe that? I said no and smiled. At some point after 4 years I decided I was sick of the affair circle. So I put the circle around me and told myself, "let's see what happens" Just so you know very recently I sent the OW magazine subscriptions with bill me later. See I can't let it go either almost 6 years out but I did get on with my life, my children, grandchildren and what I like to do. I'm going to therapy because it so easy for me to digress in to my past behaviors. I can see they are coming but don't know how to stop them. My therapist told me to do four things for myself that I was afraid of doing. She told me not to make another appointment until I did.
DeleteLLP -
DeleteYou and I are cut from the same cloth. I actually just sent the OW magazine subscriptions as well! Here I thought I was so original : ) I may have tweaked her name just slightly. I am sure though she will enjoy her subscriptions to Mens Health, Bride, and a few other magazines. Thank you for responding. I started laughing for the first time in a couple of days.
My H has done nothing to show me that he is NOT 100% in this marriage. It is me that feels like I am lagging behind - one foot in and one foot out.
I get what your H is saying, mine says similar comments about everything always circling back to his affair. It is a tough pattern to break.
Thank you for making my night. You have made me feel I am not alone in my crazy thoughts and what I consider very humorous and fulfilling actions!
Anonymous June 6
DeleteI can only say ad I have learned from experience and being on this blog, be careful what you want to know about the affair because once you know, you can’t unknow...that said, I know the date the place and too many other details... from my perception it spoils those dates and places...Elle has taught us be careful of what you need for healing and what you think you need to move forward...it’s not easy and all I can say is get yourself a good therapist to help you work through your journey...each path is different and there is no true path for all...just what works for you...sending hugs from someone who has been just where you are....just breathe....
Dandelion, I do have a relationship with my in laws. They have always been very kind to me. I am not a person who pushes back a lot however. I am not going to get into great details about them personally. I do believe my husband created this narrative of his perfect/ideal childhood. But over time and especially since dday we have grown to realize his dad was not that present. He not only worked a lot but did a lot of what he wanted to do socially. His mom was "fine" with it since she was happy as the mom. Or so the story goes. I 100% feel they created the selfish person he was and can still be (he is so much better but it surfaces still to this day). He was indulged, spoiled and put on a pedestal. He also grew up in a household that it was better to do whatever you wanted without permission and ask for forgiveness later. Saying all of this I do think his parents and siblings would be horrified if they knew what he did. I do not think they think he is perfect but this would not be something they could justify. He is not sure if anything ever went down with his parents but he is pretty sure nothing like this ever did.
DeleteOne thing I struggle with is during the ten "affair years" he would hide behind his parents. Instead of a family dinner or just us he would invite his mom or parents so we were never alone or a family with just our kids. I maintain he did that to detach and avoid being with me. It was easier for him. It was a huge issue for us during those years. I would bring it up in a nice way that he needed to cut the cord. He talked to them way more than we talked etc. He would accuse me of being mean and not allowing him to care for and be nice to his parents. They were his primary relationship even though we had been together for many years and had kids together already. We had to work really hard after dday to get through this aspect. I had to explain to him the triggers. It still can be an issue. I feel like sometimes our life seems the same as pre dday. So busy with kids and work and I feel we need to focus on us vs worrying about including his parents. And that can still upset him. It happens a lot less but it still does happen.
I've pretty much accepted that I will never really understand my husband's reasons to cheat just like I will never fully understand my mother's reasons to drink. Or a gambler. Or a compulsive shopper. There's a whole lot I don't understand about what motivates other people to do harmful things to themselves and their families but I've come to understand that, beneath it all, is pain and shame.
DeleteAnonymous, the others have given you really good guidance, I think. I agree that it sounds as though you're just not ready to move past this yet. Grieving, perhaps. But also I wonder if your hesitation to talk about it, to be fully honest about just how difficult you're finding it to get past the "ewwww" factor is also getting in the way. Shadows loom large. When we shine a light on those feelings -- and share them -- often they lose their power over us. Your husband behaved in ways that lost your respect for him. Can you focus on what he's done to earn that respect back? Can HE talk to you about how HE feels about how behaved? My husband's admission that HE hated who he was, that HE was disgusted with himself, went a long toward helping me release that.
Thanks, Hopeful. My relationship with my mother-in-law is definitely a struggle. We have never been geographically close until the past several years. It was easy to tolerate all the boundary crossing when we we only saw his parents once a year. It was also different before d-day. I just smiled and bit my tongue. But now she’s here and we interact regularly so it’s not as easy for me. I have to find ways to be clearer about my boundaries but to be honest I think she’s completely oblivious to anyone’s boundaries. It all seems to tie up into once big messy ball. I have to remind myself to separate the issues with her from the issues with the infidelity.
DeleteDandelion,
DeleteI really struggled with my mother-in-law but things had become better (she passed away a few years ago). But it took really enforcing my boundaries -- broken record stuff. Saying it over and over again without making excuses or offering explanations. ("I won't be able to come until 4p.m." "Thanks but that won't work for me." Etc.) And be prepared for counter-moves -- begging/bribing/weeping/wailing, anger/agression or sulking/pouting/silent treatment. Because you'll probably get one of those. Or she'll just ignore your boundaries. Either way, stick to them. Don't back down. You're literally teaching her how to treat you -- and you want to teach her well. Hang in there, Dandelion. She's a grown up and it's high time she learned to respect others' boundaries.
LLP - I'm so glad to see you again! And to hear that you're still working towards finding the best version of YOU! I saved a response from Elle to you from July 2018. I read it weekly for a few months and have read it several times since. I even shared it with my WS as a validation that this site is NOT about burning the cheaters at the stake. In it she mentions that the bell cannot be unwrung and how we bring our own stuff to this mess that we have to deal with. It's sadly so very true.
DeleteAnd damn ... why didn't I send magazine subscriptions to the OW? I could have had such fun with that! Sadly, she's selling her house and will be moving. Part of me "needs" to know where ... and part of me just wants to drop the dead weight.
H'mmm...now you've got me curious what I said. Would you mind posting it here?
DeleteKim, wow I remember that post too. Elle really kicked me in the butt and I needed it, for sure. That helped me. I asked my H to read it as you did. I can remember I told him, ok, read this Elle stuck up for you today. Like you I wanted to prove to him this is not a bashing site. All through my healing, he would say, what are you reading my reply: BWC, He would say, I see a debit for BWC, who the hell is that? I said my two places I give is this site and our local animal shelter so zip it. (NO disrespect Elle, it is the two places that are close to my heart). Good luck finding it Kim there are volumes here on this site. You are so sweet and tender hearted Kim. I think about you and like your post to see where you are in the healing circle.
DeleteElle:
Deletehttp://betrayedwivesclub.blogspot.com/2018/07/guest-post-two-tricks-to-teach-self-love.html#comment-form
ElleJuly 23, 2018 at 8:43 AM
LLP,
Alcohol is a depressant. So while you say it lets the veil slip a bit and your true feelings come out, I don't entirely believe it. Yes, your pain is there and it's constant. I know. And you and I both know too that you brought a TON of pain into your marriage and have been completely re-traumatized by your husband's betrayal. But I also know that alcohol is a depressant. On a chemical level, it is altering your brain so that any feel-good chemicals give way to feel-shitty chemicals. I would start by putting aside any alcohol for now because it's exacerbating an already volatile situation.
And you know I don't give your husband a pass. And you know that if you want to leave tomorrow, I will be virtually helping you pack your bags and cheering you on. But I also want you to know that I don't know what more your husband can do right now. He cannot un-cheat. I am pretty damn sure that if he could, he would. Instead, he is telling you that he loves you and is trying to be the man you deserve. If that's not enough for you (and there's no rule saying it has to be. YOU get to decide whether you stay or go), then it's not enough. Absolutely okay to feel that way. But what I see you doing, over and over and over LLP, is getting in your own way. Your pain is so raw and so tender that the slightest touch makes you scream in pain. I get it. You are a highly intelligent, deeply sensitive person who has been abused in some shape or form much of your life. And you expend so much of your strength just keeping your head above water. Which is why this post might be just what you need. Rest, LLP. Let yourself rest. What if you agreed to not talk about the affair for a period of time. What if you made a resolution with yourself to NOT bring it up every time you're triggered but to, instead, journal it or walk it off or write a letter then burn it? Not every feeling needs to be expressed. I know I sound like I'm contradicting my usual "we need to be free to share our pain" mantra but I think there comes a time when we're not saying anything new. When we're simply poking that same old wound and preventing it from scabbing over.
I know triggers are everywhere for you right now. And I still find watching movies with cheating in it makes me squirm. But it doesn't feel raw. It just feels...gross. Like "how can anyone think that's exciting or sexy?"
Yes, what your husband did to you is on him. But you need to take responsibility for what's happening now. I hope you can hear the compassion from me to you when I say this: it IS on you if, when you drink, you cause pain in your relationship. It's tough to hear that. It might trigger a lot of your own shame. But LLP, it's true. You can't hold this guy's feet to the fire forever. Or your own.
The others here (including SS1) have noted that healing comes for them when they're able to extend mercy to themselves, to be kind to themselves. Your post begins with your own disappointment in yourself for lashing out when you've been drinking but quickly turns to but it's his fault that I'm in pain. Let yourself rest, LLP.
Ladies, oh how I have missed you all! There is so much to say and share, but for now, I need to say those of you getting your revenge by sending magazine subscriptions, please stop. Also, I'd recommend that you go back and edit those admissions out of your posts. What you are doing can actually be charged as felony mail fraud, and if somebody were mean and deep-pocketed enough, they could charge you with identity theft. You can harm someone's credit in this way, and if someone were to figure out it was you, there could be felony charges and even jail time. Please don't do this!!
DeleteBeach Girl
ReplyDeleteI totally understand what you are saying...I have one of those that has stepped up to the challenge of meeting my new expectations of the relationship that we both deserve...That said every day is a brand new day to pick and choose to do the right thing and so far... I see him doing the best he can and I too am doing the best I can one day at a time! Sending you hugs!
I stay, because we have kids, and he's a wonderful father, and he's doing everything he can, and certainly everything I ask. But lately I have doubts. I wonder if I'm doing my children a disservice by letting our relationship be the model for them. I don't think I'll ever be able to trust him or rely on him again, the way I always thought a couple should trust and rely on each other, and I don't want my children growing up thinking that's what a loving relationship is. Self sufficiency is a good thing, but when I was growing up I thought you could find someone who would be a rock you could hold on to when you were at your complete mental end... and I can't imagine that with him anymore. I've spent my life being strong, and I thought this was the one corner where I could acknowledge that I was afraid and overwhelmed (when we had children)... and because he felt bad about himself for not being able to fix it, he took it to other women, and told them I was too easily overwhelmed, incompetent, a bad mom. How can I raise children with this man? I want someone I can share those mom thoughts with, to build me back up, to be confident I won't be judged. I want my children to think that's what a relationship is.
ReplyDeleteHe makes everything in my life easier. My life is better with him. But I would like to find a rock, and I would like my children to think they should be rocks, and find rocks for themselves as well.
Anon June 5, we should be able to rely on our partners and we should be able to be vulnerable with them about our own challenges. But ultimately a partner can give us enough of something to fill the gap where we are not already giving that to ourselves. Being a safe place for ourselves, being our own rock is so important. That doesn't mean that we don't need other people. We need a whole community to make it through life. But no one outside of us can make up for what is missing inside of us. When you learn that you can get through this, when you begin to trust that you can handle what life throws at you, on your own, as a whole, capable, complete person, then you have the opportunity for a whole new kind of partnership.
DeleteAnd that stuff he said about you to the OW about being incompetent, easily overwhelmed and a bad parent? He was talking about himself. Those are things he secretly believes about himself and he is afraid they are true and so he projected them onto you, rather than take a hard look at himself.
Have you talked to your H about these concerns? That you don't trust him to have your back or to let him see when you are struggling? That is something he will need to earn back over time with action. But he won't know unless you talk with him about it
Anon, I felt exactly the way you did. We had so many discussions before getting married, having kids etc. He pushed me to have kids. I was hesitant and very open about that with him. So when he went and started 10 years of affairs right before the birth of our second child it rocked my world. It also made me feel better since there was a reason for how he acted. He has told me he had to say and tell himself whatever he did in order for himself to make it through each day. If he had spoken the truth to himself he would have been the jerk since there was no valid reason or explanation for what he did that had anything to do with me. But I was the reason in his head to justify his actions.
DeleteWe are over four years past dday and I really struggled with everything you say about our marriage and what type of example it was for our kids. The only reason I stayed initially was because of them. I will say where we are now I am glad I committed to working it out. Having kids at home still and not adults was my greatest motivation to making this work on my end. I am thankful we both committed to this and made the changes. It has not been easy but as we entered the teen years it has been valuable to be on the same team. I think because of going through his betrayal we are closer and more united. And honestly a lot of issues our kids face with kids remind me of his behaviors during the "affair years" so it is good we have worked through where we stand on how to treat others, how to take care of yourself etc. I agree with SS1 I would suggest talking about it. For us that always helps. And every time I bring something up he always says he was feeling or thinking the same thing every time. Of course I am the one who usually brings it up but we both feel better after we talk through it and create a plan.
I think kids look at each parent separately and not until they are older, do look at the relationship. I want a role model who makes it through the storm. I want a role model who hurtles those rocks. What your children think about their dad is their thoughts. You can't change what they think and to try would cause chaos and strife. Much of your post is "what if". Take away the affair. Is he still a good dad? Does he still think you are overwhelmed and a bad mom? When you have been strong for so long, in this manner, it ends up being "get them before they can get me" which is not a rock. I NEVER HAD A ROCK EVER. I still don't have a rock. I wish my mother had been my rock, not their relationship. A relationship is too shaky to ever be a rock.
DeleteAnonymous, Like you, I thought I could finally release my need to always be the strong one. I thought I'd found my safe place in the world.
DeleteThat's a big thing to have to let go of. It was devastating to me. I remember saying to my H, repeatedly, "I thought you were the one person who would never hurt me like this." I was so sure. I knew others couldn't be trusted. But him?? Such a betrayal of everything I thought I'd built with him.
You don't have to stay with him. Your marriage doesn't have to be horrible for you to want a better one. But before you give up (and it sounds as though you don't really want to), are you doing what you can to really rebuild that thing you thought you had? He let you down, absolutely. He wasn't your rock. But can he become that? Is he willing to? We can't re-do what's happened but we all have the power to try and build something new. I'd try and talk to him about it -- and enlist him as an ally in building a new marriage.
Thank you all so much, what you all have said is really right to the heart of my fears and it helps to know people who have been through it think you can get to another side.
DeleteStillStanding-- yes, I've spoken to him about it and he actually suggested the other night, before I had seen all your posts, that he thought maybe he was projecting. At that time in particular our neuroatypical son was going through a lot, and he couldn't face any of it, so I handled everything-- school, finding therapists, doctors, testing, finding ways to break the news whenever it came in...
but I also think he latched on to the weaknesses and fears I had about myself because I verbalized them, trying to lean on him, and so he only found those things because I had mentioned them. That makes me afraid to express my fears to him again. Because I actually think it wouldn't have occurred to him, some of the criticisms he had of me, if I hadn't brought it up myself.
And Hopeful30-- yes, I do think we are more united in a million ways already, only 18 months out from DDay1, and we were even seven months out I think. Maybe even the next day, when it had suddenly become clear (we thought) that we really loved each other, and neither wanted to leave. Like the way Esther Perel compares adultery to a cancer diagnosis-- you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy, but sometimes it opens up a life you never would have had otherwise. But the triggers, and my loneliness... my mother's and father's reactions in these areas come up in my therapy all the time, and I find myself imagining what my children will be saying to their therapists in 30 years...
LLP yes, he is a wonderful father. And he thinks I am a wonderful mother. He says he always did (but, that's what he says now.)
Elle, he wants to become my rock. He tries. But isn't this the thing that doesn't come back? It has seemed to me, reading this blog, that this is the lifetime effect of trauma-- this one thing doesn't come back-- does it?
Anon, My children are hyper aware of so much. They do not know about the betrayal. We worked really hard for them not to know at the time. Granted they were younger. They both would ask me why I was quiet or so tired at the time. And they also asked why their dad was around so much all of a sudden and why we were spending all our time together. If I cried I would go in our closet. And we only talked late at night or most of the time when neither was home. My kids have always been very perceptive. My youngest asked at the age of 2 or 3 why their dad liked spending time with his friends more than his family. I never was negative with my kids about him no matter what was going on. I did tell him about the comment to start a dialog however at the time he blamed me saying I must have been saying negative things about him to the kids. It was the farthest thing from the truth they were just observant kids. We talk about healthy boundaries and relationships with our kids all the time. We are not perfect and they know it but they do not know the extent. And I personally think and based on my husband's professional experience kids see everything you do. Each day you are modeling for them from relationships to all aspects of your life.
DeleteWe say and believe this is the worst thing that could have happened to our marriage and would never wish it upon anyone else but it has brought us closer together than we ever thought we could be.
And honestly at 18 months you sound like you are doing really well. It takes time and lots of work. You are doing the right things. No matter what happens you are putting in the work and will be great.
So...advice needed. Sigh. It’s been a rough couple of weeks. My daughter has struggled with depression, anxiety, cutting, panic attacks etc for the last 4 years. Ironically I’m 4 years post Dday. When I found out she was cutting I put my shit on hold to get her to therapy. It literally interrupted my crisis and put it on the back burner. We made it through cutting only to continue with panic, anxiety and deep depression. The past 7 months have been the worse. She’s a senior in Hs and moved out for a month which was reallly hard and has been on a self destructive mission. It’s been ER visits, sickness, drinking, weed, miscarriage etc. and fast forward to a few weeks ago.. I learned that 4 years ago was the grooming phase of her sexual assault and relationship that lasted 2.5 yrs with her trusted sports coach! He’s now been arrested and awaiting another hearing. It’s been to say the least, mind blowing and the guilt is awful.
ReplyDeleteWent to our first therapy session for this on Monday. Basically this is secondary trauma as he’s a family friend as well as her coach. Dday was also during this grooming time and I’m angry I was sidelined dealing with my shit while she literally was being groomed for trauma. I’m mad and very angry today. Feel like I just let her down as a mother, protector, etc. Do I bring up the affair again and rehash the timing that interrupted us in protecting her? We’ve made progress as a couple, healed, I’ve forgiven...and now it’s hurting me again.
Heartfelt, dear God, I am so sorry. It is horrific what you and your daughter have gone through. I promise you, just like with the infidelity, what happened is not your fault. These predators are so skilled at flying below the radar. My daughter was assaulted in high school and also at the same time when I was dealing with the discovery of my ex's infidelity. I also blamed myself. But, the thing is: when it comes to rape and assault - it just exists. Outside of our control. We can do everything in our power to try and keep our kids safe but we can't control for all factors and we can't control other people. I'm so, so, so sorry. Just know that what happened was not your fault. It is sickening that this could happen.
DeleteLet yourself be mad and angry. And as far as your "old" affair stuff, there is no statute of limitations. If you are ready to deal with it now, then you are allowed to bring it up and dig in. I'm sending you a big hug Heartfelt!
Heartfelt, I am so sorry for what you are facing right now and I want to say, "ditto" to what SS1 said. Life is never fair and being in the situation we are all in on this blog, I often think we collectively get MORE than our share of trauma to deal with. Honestly you probably know that you cannot blame yourself for what happened in the past but now that you have new information you are actively dealing with it right now. We cannot control or know about anyone else's life except ours and even that at times seems impossible. I was raised by a mother who was ahead of her time for talking to me about the dangers of being a pretty teenager yet even her direct talks and warnings did not protect me from the episodes of unwanted and welcomed advances of some older men. I suspect that the trauma of the affair time period was awful but I also believe that the kinds of monsters that groom young women exist whether we want to accept that or not and it would be a reasonable expectation that your daughter's coach would be a responsible adult and not a predator. You had no way of knowing what was going on and she probably didn't either. Attention from trusted adults, especially clergy, teachers, relatives and coaches is something young people thrive on and they are extremely vulnerable to predators. Big hugs to you and keep breathing. You need your own mask on now before you move to help others.
DeleteHeartfelt, if anyone has a huge heart it is you. You have been through it girl, for sure. I resent the times when my kids need my H and he needed a vagina. I think how different their relationship could have been. I have to let that shit go. His relationship with his children are on him. I'm not going to assume that baggage and neither should you. I finally told my daughter recently, "I can't do anything about father's relationship with you." She said, "That's ok mom I gave up a long time ago." Sad. So if she gave up why in the hell I'm still trying? What I'm trying to say, his affair at that time, when your focus was blurred for awhile is on him, not you. Don't ever assume that is on you. Don't assume the results are on you.
DeleteYour daughters life has blown up on all fronts. I'm so sorry for her. I felt like her when my parent were divorced from an affair, went wild out of anger but reined it eventually. I hope she gets better. That type of hurt is so deep it brings tears to my eyes to think about how painful it is and how I thought self medication would help but it only hurt me. I really don't think it is the affair, it is really you feel like you let her down is why you are angry and frustrated. It sure as hell sounds like you are protecting full force mom. That goes a long way with a girl. My therapist gave me an example. I fell down and put a hole in my tights, my mother said, "look what you did" A mom like you would say, "don't worry about it we will get you a new pair". You can just get your daughter a new pair of whatever she needs. That goes a long way. She was a bystander during the affair, the affair itself was not relevant to her. It is relevant to you. What you can say, is I'm pissed at myself for feeling selfish trying to get over the affair while I could have been more focused on my daughter." After an affair it is too easy to beat ourselves up for every thing in life. I came to the conclusion that life just sucks. It just does. Your daughter may need inpatient resources since her wounds are so deep. I really feel bad for you. What does your daughter need from her dad? You can't really say, "If you hadn't had the affair then I could prevented my daughter from being groomed." Let your H know your doubts about yourself as a mom. She will need both of you to get through this. My prayers are with you and your daughter. It totally breaks my heart to hear about her because I know that could have been me. Not because of the affair but because of how my mom and dad felt about me.
Heartfelt,
DeleteThinking of you as a mom and the betrayed. It is so hard since these aspects of our lives do overlap. All I can say is you have done your best. You have gotten your daughter help and that means so much. We are here for you and thinking of you and your family daily!
Heartfelt, My heart is breaking for you and your daughter. But you are not to blame. You trusted someone and he betrayed that trust in the WORST possible way. HE is at fault. And, sadly, there are far too many moms and dads who don't know what's happening with their kids.
DeleteYou did the best you could at the time. And now that you have more information, you will do a different kind of best. Heartfelt, you are a warrior and you've been fighting like hell for your daughter but without that crucial piece of information. I know how hard you'll fight to help her put herself back together. You are a model of fierce mother love. And she will know that and feel that. I'm so sorry that you've had your own pain and trauma to go through. I was further past D-Day when my daughter began self-harm and panic attacks. She was ultimately diagnosed with bipolar disorder and is doing incredibly well. Your daughter will get through this because you are lighting her way. You are showing her what strength looks like and how we fight for ourselves because we are worth fighting for.
I agree with LLP's point that you and your husband are likely feeling similarly guilty about how your own situation affected this. Try and come together through this. Support each other through this. Neither of you would intentionally put your daughter in harm's way.
And hang in there, Heartfelt. I wish you and your family every strength as you deal with this. And remember, you've always got a safe place here to share. Nobody should ever have to go through what your daughter and you are going through.
Heartfelt - all of the other BWC's members said it best. Just know you're not alone. We could have been in the most normal of situations and this still could have happened. The thing you take away from this is that you are a STRONG woman who is there to support her daughter through this. You have, sadly, an edge that many mother's don't in that you know what it's like to be betrayed and hurt.
DeleteSs1, beach girl LLP, hHopeful 30, Elle and Kimberly Thanks all for your love and support. You gave me just what I needed today. Xoxo
ReplyDeleteJust found out today that there were 4 other women. He will tell me 3 of them but refuses to tell me the name the 4th one because he promised her he would not tell me. To this point he has seemed remorseful, going to counseling, etc. But he insists on protecting this other woman. Wondering if I made the right decision to stay and work on this marriage with a man that cannot be honest with me.
ReplyDeleteUnknown,
DeleteHe doesn't get to "protect" someone who wasn't remotely interested in protecting you. Are you two in therapy at all? This is something that I think he needs to hear from someone objective -- that this isn't negotiable. YOU get to decide what you want to know, not him. I'm shocked that he can't understand just how insane it is to let the woman he cheated with be the one controlling what you know. I'm so sorry. I'd be inclined to go to the mat on this one. I just don't think he gets how crazy it is that he's protecting her identity.
I initially found out about other 3 affairs in February and we have been in counseling since that time. That's why this is so confusing, he has done anything I have asked until today. It's a red flag to me that he might still be in a relationship with her. He just told me if I insisted on knowing, he was packing his bags.
DeleteUnknown 06/10 - I would say you're assumption might just be spot on. Either he's still in a relationship with this person ... or has emotional connections to her still. My WS continued his affair for more than 8 months - but swears he didn't actually see her - which I *almost* believe. There was an emotional entanglement he wasn't able to get out of - she was the one who cut him off and you would have thought the world was coming to an end. We are coming up on 2 years from DD #1 ... so 8 months of his continued attachment and another 6 months of "detox" was what it took for me to get *most* of what I needed to know about his affair.
DeleteI am a firm believer in following your gut. It usually doesn't steer you wrong. If this is a deal breaker for you then put it out there in a boundary. Tell him you'll give him X amount of time to come clean or you'll X, Y and Z.
But remember - don't put out there what you can't follow through on.
I'm sorry that you're here. It's a shitty place to be!
Hi Unknown, I'm sorry but i felt that he is "over-protecting" that woman. He should protect your feeling over hers.
DeleteI experienced something similar last time. I was discussing with my friends on the OW attire (before i found out the affair) and my H questioned me what is the thing i talked/laugh behind. I asked my H why are you so concerning about her? He replied: She is just my co-league and i don't find it nice for someone to talk behind her. I find it fishy but i choose to trust him. What happen now? He is with that OW now and want a divorce. Always trust those "red flag".
Lost_AA
I'm with Kimberly and Lost_AA. There's something more to this story. Three people in a relationship is one too many.
DeleteHe is willing to leave you to protect her?! I'm sorry but I think you know where you stand in his eyes and it is not above her. He's putting her feelings before yours. I'd be gone . I can barely handle 1 OW, for my sanity I'd have to leave of there were more than 1. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.
DeleteThank you for your responses. Its interesting how he can make me feel like I'm the one that's being unreasonable!
DeleteUnknown, That's the power in a group of secret sisters. A lot of these guys are masters at gaslighting/manipulation. They will convince you that YOU are the crazy one, the jealous one, the insecure one. Next thing we know, we're not only agreeing that, yes, we're being a bit extreme but we're apologizing for not trusting them.
DeleteNope.
You'll see the tagline at the top of this site. My heartbreak, my rules. We didn't create the heartbreak, we're just trying to survive it. And we get to create the rules for that. If it means we need our partners to find another job, so be it. If we need to move, then that's what we need to do. Infidelity is routinely described as one of the very worst things that can happen to us -- I've heard women who've survived sexual assault say that infidelity was worse. So we are not over-reacting when we are making demands to help create emotional safety in our marriage.
Decide what you need to move forward. And then insist upon it. You don't deserve infidelity and you DO deserve respect and honesty.
Elle: THANK YOU!!
DeleteI'm sitting here crying and writing this because it has been 3 years and no matter how much my husband has changed it will never be good enough for me. He hurt and betrayed me. The worst were the lies...I know everything and I hate it. I wish I didn't. I know all the details and I wished to god I didn't. I can't trust him because I don't want to get hurt again. I'm still grieving, still days of sleepless nights. I'm living in a house that he bought for the OW, or so he told her. I have a great job, great income. We don't have kids, I don't know why I'm still here and miserable. He was my best friend, still is to some degree. I'm disgusted by his actions. We're still in counseling, it's been a year. He feels great like he turned over a new leaf. I still feel like utter garbage.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - I'm sorry to hear you are still in this spot 3 years later. Are you working in counseling for yourself?
DeleteAnonymous,
DeleteI'm so sorry for the pain you're in. I still struggled at three years too. It feels like an eternity but in the trajectory of healing from betrayal, it's kinda near the beginning.
That said, are you feeling marginally better with time? I'm also curious: Have you had other relationship trauma in your life -- with a parent, perhaps? I've become convinced that those of us who've experienced other dysfunction in our lives (I came from a home marked by addiction/mental health issues) have those old wounds re-opened with betrayal. It brings up a whole lot of unresolved pain (I'd been in therapy for years but there was still buried pain) and tends to reactivate old beliefs -- that we're not good enough, that we don't matter, that we don't deserve better, etc.
Cause here's the thing, Anonymous: You are worthy of love and respect and decency. His cheating was not about YOUR failures, but his.
And a few logistical bits: Why are you living in a house that he bought for HER? Get out. Find a place where you feel emotionally safe.
You are clearly a smart, successful woman. I support staying with him if that's what you want (I stayed!). But ON YOUR TERMS. My heartbreak, my rules.
I hope I don't sound harsh because, honestly, my heart is breaking for you. I just want you to realize that healing comes when we start valuing ourselves, when we start enforcing clear boundaries, when we start treating ourselves with respect. When we start realizing that we didn't deserve any of this.
Unknown 06/10 and Anonymous 6/15 I came across this podcast following another and thought of both of you.
ReplyDeleteI know that what this guy speaks is so very true for myself.
https://youtu.be/bCdFzjEuQrY
Thank you Kimberly. This video is something I want to share and discuss with my individual therapist. Over the 25 years that my husband and myself have been together, I have wondered this. I know in the beginning I tolerated behaviors from him that I would not tolerate now. Having said that, the combination of angry outbursts and name calling (no name calling in years as I stopped that) albeit infrequent, then the affair and then the continuation of the affair… Yes, I certainly wonder sometimes why I’m still here. I also see all the good in him. And therein, sometimes I think is the problem. Yes it’s a form of justification for him, yet it is also my nature in life. Having said that, I am certainly going to explore this with my individual counselor. Thank you for sharing.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 6/15. I feel your pain. Elle articulated much of what I was thinking. The only thing I might add is this… perhaps you are hyper focused on the affair? I say this because I recognize I can get that way. I am like you in that my husband and I have no children. It’s just the two of us. Sometimes I had to make myself not come to this blog, or make myself go out with a girlfriend that knew nothing of the affair and talk about something entirely different, or make myself go to an activity with my husband and give myself permission to just have fun and be in the moment. I have a friend whose husband had an affair. Shockingly, she (they) read no blogs, no articles, no books. Her husband and her went to counseling once a week as a couple and once a week each individually for about a year. They have not spoken of it since (2011 counseling finished.) They are happy with that. Everyone is different. Think of what you need, and ask for it. I say that ... and I have difficulty doing that myself - and therein may be the “benefit” of my husband‘s affair, for me. I believe that also helps with the healing. When you can see the growth of either your husband, yourself and/or the marriage. Thinking of you and wishing you peace.
ReplyDelete