I have the right to ask for what I want and then choose how I will respond if you can’t or won’t give it to me.
~ Iyanla Vanzant
My baby girl is nursing a broken heart. Like a whole lot of 16-year-olds dealing with her first heartbreak, she's trying to figure out what went wrong. And what she's figured is this: By setting boundaries and by asking for what she wanted (she asked for more regular contact when she and her beloved were apart instead of the 48-hour silences), she was accused of being "emotionally manipulative."
"Am I, Mom?" she asked.
No. She's not.
She's wiser than her years and though this was her first romantic relationship, she's always had a strong sense of herself and her boundaries. (I've learned a lot from her, incidentally, about setting and keeping boundaries.)
But we know this about boundaries, don't we? That when we ask for what we want/need, others, who don't want to give us what we want/need, will try and convince us that what we're in the wrong. That we're asking for too much. That we're too sensitive. That we're manipulative. In other words, they will respond with counter-moves in order to get us to back down, to make ourselves small, to keep the peace.
To which I say, hell no.
And to which I said to my sobbing daughter, hell no. Your job is not to make yourself small to make others happy, to prioritize others' comfort over your own.
That said, her ex was completely within her rights to say 'no' to more contact. She's allowed to have her own needs/wants. But what was unkind and wrong was the accusation of emotional manipulation.
And far too many of us accept fault when all we're doing is stating our needs.
As Iyanla puts it, clearly and succinctly, "I have the right to ask for what I want and then choose how I will respond if you can't or won't give it to me."
Which means, you get to ask him to stop going out for a beer with his friends if it makes you uncomfortable in the wake of cheating.
He gets to say 'yes' or 'no' but his choice makes his values clear and you get to decide what to do with that information.
You get to ask him to move jobs if his affair partner works with him. You get to ask him to seek help for his addiction(s). You get to ask him to give you any/all passwords to any/all electronics.
See the pattern?
You get to ask him.
He gets to respond.
And then you get to choose what to do with that information.
Here's what you don't want to do:
Ask him for what you want/need.
He refuses.
You ask him again. You beg. You plead. You explain.
You sulk.
Nope.
You are a grown-ass woman who is entitled to ask for what she needs. And then determine what to do with his response.
It's when we expect him to read our minds that things go off the rails. It's when we're afraid to set boundaries that we get into trouble. It's when we don't prioritize our own wants/needs that resentment takes root.
It's not easy, especially if you've spent a lifetime staying small to keep others comfortable.
But this is the time to say 'no more.'
I have the right to ask for what I want and then choose how I will respond if you can't or won't give it to me.
It's that simple. And that hard.
And that necessary.
The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
Thank you for this and all the other glimpses of hope that this site offers. I'm new here, I just found you this week. I'm 3 months into finding out about my husband's 7 month affair with a female co-worker 14 years younger than him. I have 2 beautiful and amazing kids and I'm trying so hard to keep things stable for them. The pain is overwhelming. I can't make my decision to stay or go yet, I'm giving myself till March to even try to sort it out. Meanwhile, I'm absorbing your helpful posts, trying to muddle my way to a healthy strong version of myself. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteHi Beth. I found out about my husband's betrayal (with a friend of mine) the first week of this year. The pain is overwhelming. It really is. Like nothing I've ever experienced. And...you don't have to decide yet. I chose to give myself a year before making any such decision about staying or leaving, due to the depth and volatility of my emotions (not a great place to make life-changing decisions from). Also to give my husband - who has expressed remorse - an opportunity to prove that he's serious about getting healthy. So sorry you're having to walk this road. It super, super sucks.
DeleteHi Beth,
DeleteI'm so sorry you're going through this. I'm glad you've found your way here, among people who understand. Your situation is very similar to mine (including the age difference -- OUCH), but I'm 17 months since finding out and 15 months since getting the whole truth.
Beth, I can promise you that the pain lessens. It also hits less frequently. That's one of the questions I had for Elle early on and her reassurance that the pain is both less intense and less frequent has proved true.
Being kind to yourself, having compassion for yourself, and finding your way to a stronger version of yourself is absolutely the right series of choices to make. YOU come first now, and forever more.
As for staying or going, unless your husband is showing a lack of remorse and/or an unwillingness to fully engage in the reconciliation process, you simple don't have enough information yet to make that choice. By that I mean you don't know enough about how supportive a partner your husband is capable of being, and you don't know enough about what you feel. You're likely still in shock.
Keep reading and keep posting if you have questions or just need support. We're here to help.
Chinook
Thank you for the support. It's amazing how much strength I can find just knowing others have forged this path before me. My husband is remorseful and is making extreme changes to find and correct the brokenness in him that allowed this into our lives. It may not be enough. I agree, I do not have enough information yet. I'm grieving, I'm taking notes on the nuggets of truth I keep finding here, I'm definitely in shock and still, somehow I'm beginning to see that I will survive this. Be better for it? I'm skeptical, but hopeful.
DeleteBeth, I am so sorry for everything you are going through. This site is amazing and we are all here for you. For me finding this site was not only educational and informative but it was finding a group of people that said "me too". I could not find that anywhere else.
DeleteI could go on and on and write so much. Hang in there. It can be so hard. I thought there was no way I could make it through it all. It took a solid year to work through the pain. I am at 4 1/2 years post dday. My husband had two sporadic affairs over 10 years. I would never wish it upon anyone but where we are now is totally different. We are closer than ever and we have both changed individually and as a couple for the better. For me early on I focused on only what I had to do. We both did that. We focused on our kids and each other. We basically hibernated for a year. Hang in there and know we are all here for you!
Hi Beth, I'm glad you found us. As you've already discovered, the women here are compassionate and kind and know exactly what you're going through. "Me too" are powerful words and those further along the path toward healing can light the way forward for you.
DeleteIn the meantime, I admire your strength and conviction. I, too, wanted to do everything I could to keep things stable for my three young kids. But please ensure that you have space where you can cry and rant and wail -- where you can process the deep deep pain of betrayal.
Continue to share your story here. Giving yourself time is a smart thing to do. Focus on you. Be kind to yourself. And trust that the day will come when you be through this.
Gracia,
DeleteI'm sorry for what you've gone through too. It always makes my heart swell when those of you still aching from your own betrayal take the time to extend a hand to those just arriving here. Thank-you too, Chinook.
You women never fail to remind me of the power of kindness. We get through this by pulling each other along and, sometimes, resting together when it's all too much.
Elle, this has to be the best post you have ever written. I mean the best ever. I can't even express in words how much this emotionally moved me. I wish my heart could talk, then you would know how absolutely wonderful you are.
ReplyDeleteThanks LLP. And your heart does talk. You always ALWAYS give me plenty to think about too.
DeletePart 1 Here is the text I sent my H during a trigger. No answer? No come back? Honestly you were enough. I only wanted you. Your problems were just that yours. Not mine. You pushed me away but I never left you. Never. I thought I was doing what you wanted. Babies, Money, Clean House. All of it wasn't good enough for you. Your issues, not mine. You are so blessed to have someone like me to love you so much. Forever. Nobody else isn't that nice to know? When I cry over the phone a thought comes to my mind, was he like this with her? When she was upset was he the same? Is what he is telling me just the same way he was with her. You never showed any compassion to me except after after you were with her. When she was upset she would sit on your lap too. I think about that still when I sit on your lap. Don't you think, I think of that every time? I imagine it was. Do you really believe that I still don't think about it? You hurt me to the core of something I never wanted ever. Sometimes I think the karma but hit me. Good night. You were married damn it. Did you notice how we both forgot our 40th anniversary. Do you even realize HOW SAD THAT IS FOR ME? Of course not. I don't need to prove my love to you. HIS RESPONSE: And I love you without reservation and I haven't asked you to prove anything.
ReplyDelete🤗 LLP, You have be come very adept at explaining your feelings in a way that puts the focus on YOU and YOUR feelings. Which allows him to try and understand them and respond without defensiveness.
DeletePart 2 A letter of resentfulness. There are going to be times I lash out because everything hurts at one time. Like an avalanche. I feel like how can I stop this? How can I make it better? I want life just to go on. I realize what shit has been dealt to me unfairly. I get angry then I get over it. I have to make a consciences effort to get over it, my nature is to hang on to all those negative emotions. Sometimes it takes a few hours, sometimes an overnight or sometimes a day. I tell myself it is just life. I guess I expected it by this age for life to smooth out, like the two years we traveled was a fairy tale. When I dreamed as a little girl it was for a special marriage, travel, babies, being a mom and being something/someone. You grow up as a little girl into a big girl hanging on to those dreams expectations. Nobody tells you, well, maybe they won't come true. You have expressed the same to me. Anyway, I'm really doing the best I can right now. I see my sister sitting on the couch in denial, big time denial, knowing she is not going to be here much longer. I hate the thought of losing those I love then here comes the avalanche. The avalanche of anger.The avalanche of unfairness. The avalanche of black eye.The avalanche of STD. The avalanche of my sister being hateful to me. Avalanche of me not wanting to celebrate something that should have been special. I'm sure you can name a zillion things too. I heard them from you, I know you can relate. What I'm trying to say is I'm sorry for being mean to you. I want you to know I still hurt. I need to accept something like that, at least for me, stays with you like a forever experience. It doesn't rule my life like it once did but when that avalanche starts then it all comes down, everything. Your are my confidant so you get hear about your part in that avalanche. That avalanche is melting around me from your warmth.
ReplyDeleteThis is a very powerful post. The ending so so accurate. I thought healing from the betrayal would be the hardest part. But no it was reshaping our relationship, setting boundaries, learning how to move through life in this new way. As you said I spent my lifetime adapting to what he wanted and honestly others too. I was always the easy to get along with, compliant person. It made life easy, people liked me, I did not rock the boat. It was a lot to learn and take in. I continue to repeat to myself talk less and listen more. I set out my expectations/boundaries and wait and see. I have less emotion about it than ever. I am more matter of fact. It has been a long process but I feel I am gaining steam. I had to learn how to do this though it was not part of who I was.
ReplyDeleteHopeful 30,
DeleteYep, me too. And, of course, it wasn't just my husband. I had to shift who I was in every relationship in order to be able to show up for myself. I was so accustomed to always accommodating. And then resentment would creep in when the other person was only responding to ME. Learning to ask for what I want/need has changed everything.
Pt 1: I am writing here today because I am hoping that maybe some of you might be able to offer me some advice and understanding of how you see my situation. In particular, partners of sex addicts, of which I am one.
ReplyDeleteIm not sure if retelling my whole story is necessary/helpful/worthwhile, so I shan't do so now and in honesty, I feel so "stuck" with which way to turn, I am not even sure what I AM writing or asking. I think to have some idea of what a "good healthy recovering sex addict" might look like, and what a relationship that has promise to be successful despite sex addiction, might also look like. I apologise in advance as I fear this will be a long post.
The basic issue I have, is that I don't know what a recovering and healthy sex addict looks like. I feel like there is probably a wide range, but wonder if there is a more "common ground" that some reach, and inparticular the behaviours of those who manage to find a way to lead a more healthy life after the addiction, with a good relationship with their partner.
My H was, in hindsight, developing a sex addiction from his mid teens. I met him (aged 18) when it was starting to take a grip, but didn't understand what was normal for a young adult male, and being my first (and only) relationship, allowed far too many behaviours and suffered numerous escalating disclosures over the course of our relationship. After a major and traumatic discovery in 2017, he faced up to the addiction and although it took 6 months to break the most damaging habits, he now would consider himself reasonably "sober". I thought that about 6 months ago we moved the final unhealthy behaviours of masturbation to porn (still images only - video porn stopped about 9 months after D Day) into his "inner/red circle", and so I have been living in a belief that he is completely sober of all addict behaviours until last night, when we sat down, and he disclosed that he does still "fail" with this final hurdle frequently, but hasn't felt that it "is too bad" and so while he regrets and has shame around the activity, he doesn't wish to completely beat himself up and see himself as a complete failure when this happens.
I am stuck.
Pt 2: I spent the first 15 years of our relationship, after him convincing me that "everyone does it", telling myself that I don't mind if he uses porn. Since the final D Day, I have continued to feel that while I don't like it, it isnt the "end of the world" and I can see his point of view, that he feels that while he might sometimes allow this to happen, it potentially prevents him doing worse things, and is a means of stress relief for him rather than directly part of his addiction.
ReplyDeleteHe said last night he will always be an addict. He will daily, he believes, struggle not to watch other women in the street or have to think about websites or articles he is reading etc, even if they are just on a standard news channel or similar.
And I don't know what to think. I have been thinking hard about my boundaries (I never set any before, and if I did, I did nothing when he walked all over them). Do I try to say this IS a boundary for me? If so, I dont think he is capable of stopping this behaviour, so do I walk away? I dont know.
I have been writing here recently a lot about the fact I dont feel happy, I don't know what I am doing wrong. I hear you all when you say "this takes time". I guess I don't know what I should be hoping for. I had hoped and believed that he was fully sober, as in no porn, no online or physical affairs. I don't know if I am expecting too much too soon, or if other addicts do manage to stop this behaviour almost instantly. I dont know how to help him, or advise him, how to become "fully sober". He does attend sex addicts anonymous but not very often. He doesnt have a sponser. I guess Im wondering what other partners were doing at this stage in recovery. Did recovery take years, or was it a "hit rock bottom instant change".
I have also written before about the fact that I am not seeing the "big positive changes" in our relationship. I have said that things arent bad enough to leave, but they arent feeling good enough to make me happy. I just feel utterly confused and grateful for any insights people can give.
Thank you
Hi Ali,
DeleteSo this all came to a head in 2017? It's been about two years?
I'm curious what he's doing re. recovery. Is he in a 12-step program? Is he working with a therapist who's certified to help with sex addiction? I ask all this because I think it's crucial. Sex addiction is a really tough one to manage because, of course, you can't/don't want to eliminate sex from your lives. Unlike alcohol or drugs, you don't just cut it out completely.
However, porn is, as I think you suspect, likely getting in the way of healthy intimacy. I'm not anti-porn but for an addict, it's a problem. Just like a non-alcoholic can enjoy a glass of wine.
So...I think you have some hard choices to make re. his behaviour. If he can't/won't stop all addictive behaviour (and his resistance to this makes me think it's feeding the addiction), then you need to decide what you're okay with. And, from what you're saying, I don't think you're okay with living like this.
Are you in any sort of counselling? Because being a partner of a sex addict is excruciating (I speak from experience) and it can be so important to really understand how you can heal from this too.
So...in summary, I would lay down very clear rules around what you expect from him in terms of treatment for his addiction. I would make a 12-step group and therapy non-negotiable. (He'll be hard-pressed to find those involved in recovery who think "some" porn is okay.)
And I would seek out treatment for you. Are you familiar with the work of Patrick and Stefanie Carnes? There's also Rob Weiss online and PartnerHope does some really good work around partners of sex addicts.
Ali, you do not need to settle for this. You are completely within your rights to want a husband who can show up for you emotionally and physically and sexually. You are completely within your rights to insist on a husband who does more than just white-knuckle it. Recovery, of course, takes time. But it sounds like you need to see that he's making more of an effort.
Thank you Elle - I agree with all you say above.
DeleteTo be clear, H worked one-on-one with Craig Perra, founder of The Mindful Habit system for sex addiction. Within 4 months he was pretty much sober from all but porn, and then 4 months later again, stopped all video porn, but the "seeking around the edges" via lingerie websites/occasional still images of porn has continued. His thought is that it "isnt too bad", and while he recognises it is a subtle part of the addiction, I think that he would also say he feels it isn't a completely UN-healthy part of sexuality, and whether or not it impacts on our own intimacy is questionable. I think it reduces his libido for our own sex lives, he would probably agree, but I don't have a massively high sex drive (mainly due to the past history of our relationship, and my discomfort in initiating anything sexual, or often feeling close enough to want anything from him) so actually, it is hard to know if him stopping porn would change our own sex lives significantly.
He attends a 12-step group but VERY sporadically. I would say he went weekly or fortnightly for about 6 months and now goes once every 4-8 weeks. He doesnt fully sign up to the 12-step idea, and prefers the Mindful Habit approach, but equally doesnt engage in any of the online calls etc that he has the rights to access, partly because he feels he is "good enough", I think, and partly because of timing - we are UK, the calls are US times.
We have had couples therapy intensively from Jan to May 2018 - it was pretty amazing but we paid a fortune for it and cant afford to repeat it. We have tried less expensive couples therapy but never found it useful.
I have had three lots of therapy I think since 2017 - the first with a so-called sex addict specialist, but didnt find her at all useful. Since then two therapists, both of whom are not sex addict specialists, and so basically tried to tell me that after all H has done, I cant ever be happy with him. The second was at least willing to help me try, and was chosen as she is a trauma specialist, so I did EMDR which I think did have benefits, but ultimately I think I probably will need to go back. The difficulty is where we are, sex addiction specialist therapists dont seem to exist. I have watch the videos of Patrick Carnes and I think read the book way back. I feel like I have read EVERY book (I havent!!) - I feel like I understand sex addiciton, but it doesnt seem to be helping me.
I think you have clarified a few things above though. That ultimately, H has engaged so far with his recovery but not fully, and while he is telling himself this might be OK, I probably do recognise it isnt sobriety, and I want and need sobriety from him. I just dont know what to do if he continues to try, and fail.
I think you are right, that he needs to re-engage more fully with something that will help him maintain that sobriety, and NOT do the "white knuckle" thing. I think he has given up fighting this last stage of the addiction and I need him to do that. HE needs to do that, for himself, too.
Ali,
DeleteI lived with an alcoholic mother for much of my life so a lot of the lies addicts tell themselves sound all too familiar. From where I sit, your husband's dalliances with porn sound dangerous -- as any honest addict knows, it's a slippery slope.
But...ultimately, the question for you is what do YOU want? What does a healthy fulfilling marriage look like for you? You do not need to settle for anything that feels like...settling. You don't need to know right now. But it's worth considering. Divorce is hard. But so is staying in a marriage that feels empty.
Help me figure out this boundary thing - I have the right to ask for what I want and then choose how I will respond if you can't or won't give it to me.
ReplyDeleteSo, I’ve asked my husband not to travel for a while, as his affair happened while he was traveling. The first 18 mo after DDay I didn’t ask, bc I was too dealing with all the crap...he continued to travel for a week every month. He would video call, answer every text and phone call, share itinerary, etc. On the surface, he is doing everything he can to reassure me, except I am not reassured. The paranoia is running deep in me. I feel I am unable to heal, as every time he travels, I am triggered and re-living the nightmare. So I asked him not to travel for a while. It looks like he is planning another work trip, so he is choosing his comfort and work over my hurt and discomfort and healing.
What do I do with that information? I see only two options, leave him or roll over and pretend all is ok for the greater good of children and all....how exactly do you work around a stalemate?
Lost Somewhere
Lost Somewhere,
DeleteI think this is where it's worth sitting down and talking this through. Yes, it does look like he's prioritizing his comfort/work over your trauma. Given that he continued to travel even after D-Day, does he think your request now is about punishment rather than a genuine need? I'm curious what he's thinking and why he thinks it's okay to expect you to continue to feel pain/trauma around something that he has the power to change?
Talk to him...and see what happens. Do your best to just listen, at first. He might fear losing his job. He might fear being embarrassed to tell his boss that his wife won't "let" him go. He might like the occasional escape from family life. But let him tell you and do your best to listen.
And then ask him to listen to you. Do your best to explain to him that you are working so hard at getting past this but that every time he leaves, you feel like you're right back at the starting point. That staying and trying to trust him again has been the hardest thing you've ever done and he doesn't seem to understand that.
If he refuses, then yes, you've got a decision to make. You can either negotiate ways in which he can try to mitigate the trauma of leaving...but I suspect his refusal will create considerable damage. I hope he knows that.
There is middle ground in there. If you don't want to break up a marriage over this, what can you do to help yourself when he's gone? Book a therapy appointment? Get a sitter for your children and take time for self-care?
Marriage is a whole lot of negotiation but, in the wake of a partner's affair, your needs should be prioritized. You are healing from trauma, as dramatic as that sounds.
Let me know what happens.
He doesn’t understand that I am traumatized and have PTSD from this. It has been explained to him by his therapist, by our marriage counselor that we are not seeing any more, by me. He says he does not understand it at all and he has no empathy for what I am going through. When I ask him how he would feel if the roles ere reversed, he says he would left me the moment he found out. So he does not even want to explore my side of the street. There is an element where he is resentful that I don’t trust him and that I don’t appreciate all the changes he has done. He has shared that he enjoys the trips and the time away from the family. He says he feel like a child that has to ask permission and be accountable for everything.
DeleteHe just wants to move on, except I can’t. Like you, I have massive childhood trauma that this affair brought back up. I have tried therapists, and I’ve had the worst experience ever. It is like a nightmare. We saw a marriage therapist first and she convinced him full disclosure was not necessary. I kept finding things 10-12 months after and I still don’t have the full story, bc it is hard to corroborate things after a year. The one I saw for myself went behind my back to talk to him about putting me in mental hospital. After I confronted her, she convinced him that we need a therapeutic separation, where I carry the full load of house, kids and all, and he stays in a hotel - a total re-enactment of his affair. I lost it. I feel that I have been traumatized even more by shitty therapy. I did two separate EMDR treatments with different therapists, and it did not help. I had a successful EMDR treatment years ago, so I know the difference.
I feel everyone is trying to fix me and is telling me to get over it and I can’t. I just don’t know how. We fight all the time and I don’t know how to fix myself. I used to be so laid back and trusting, sort of live and let live person and now I am this neurotic, paranoid, fearful, crazy shell of me, that I don’t recognize. I have panic attacks daily. I don’t sleep. I am either numb or hysterical. It is so bad, that I often dream about running away, leaving my kids, the house, the dog, everything....and just going somewhere and staying alone. Except that will totally traumatize my kids, as I have been single parenting them since day 1.
I feel that he should leave and yet, I am so terrified that he will, that I can’t even function. I am hoping that one day, somehow, I will get better. He says he is traumatized too and that he is sick and tired of trying and doing everything wrong, so he just hunkers down and does nothing, other than making sure that he is OK. So when I read about boundaries....I am like, how do I enforce them? What do I do with my trauma and fear and stand up for myself? I keep trying to face my fears, but I am so beat down...and feel so alone. I keep reading your book and the posts here and I just feel so confused. How do I do this, how do I get better?
Lost Somewhere