we need to NOT know what the person meant,
so we can ask.
we need to NOT know why someone does something,
so we can ask.
we need to NOT know someone’s thoughts and
feelings, so we can ask.
we need to NOT know how to fix something so we can
work with others and include other ideas and come up
with things together.
~Terri St. Cloud
I knew exactly why my husband cheated. It was because she was a porn star in bed. It was because he was raised in a sexually repressive family that trafficked in shame. It was because he didn't love me. Or his kids. It was because he felt entitled. It was because of the alpha male "locker room" atmosphere in his stock-jocky office.
I knew.
It was because I wasn't pretty enough. Or interesting enough. I nagged too much. I didn't cook the foods that he liked. He hated the color I painted our bedroom.
The list went on.
But I knew.
Nonetheless, I continued to ask him. Why would you do this? What's wrong with you? What's wrong with me? What does she have that I don't. Why? Why? Why?
He told me. It's not you, he said. There's nothing wrong with you. It's me, he said. There's something wrong with me.
But I wasn't listening to him. I was only listening to me and my long list of reasons. I was listening to our culture and its long list of reasons. Men cheat because they like sex more than wives do. Men cheat because they're dogs. Men cheat because they're hard-wired to spead their seed. Men cheat because sex isn't about love.
I couldn't hear what my husband was saying over the noise of everybody else.
There's something wrong with me.
The problem with "knowing" is it closes our ears to answers that don't line up with what we've already decided to be true. By "knowing", we can't learn. By "knowing", we aren't open to other thoughts, other truths, others' experiences.
It gets in the way of really understanding, or at least moving toward understanding.
My husband tried to tell me his truth for months, even as he continued to hide the extent of his cheating. There's something wrong with me, he said. I hurt too, he said.
But I was so busy telling him who he was and why he did what he did, oh! and reminding him daily (minute by minute!) of the price I was paying for his cheating.
It was a normal response to the worst pain I've ever experienced.
But it wasn't helpful.
If I could go back and have a do-over, I would try and stop myself from knowing quite so much. I would urge myself to listen a bit more. To ask myself, when my mind was racing with the infinite reasons why my husband cheated on me, what was my source of information.
Knowing can sometimes get in the way of finding a deeper truth that can move us toward healing. Knowing is the enemy of learning more, of allowing another to tell his story.
Not everyone can tell his story, for lots of different reasons. He doesn't understand himself why he made such a painful choice. Although, "I don't know..." is a valid part of his story too, at least until he's willing to learn more. Or maybe he accepts what our culture tells us: it's "normal" for guys to want sex all the time. Monogamy is unnatural. And on and on.
Some prefer the fiction they've been telling themselves that absolves them of any real responsibility for what they've done. She nags all the time. She's not interested in sex. She doesn't love me anymore.
Sometimes, as I've said before, a dog is a dog. And they're not worth the heartbreak of trying to rebuild a relationship because they see nothing wrong with what they did (except they got caught) and have no plans to really change their behaviour. It's that old "locker room" defence. Guys will be guys, right? And, eyeroll, women...amirite?
Yeah but those aren't the guys we want to be with. They're not the guys willing to dig deep to discover what's driving their hurtful behaviour. They're not the guys worth gambling your future on.
But the others can be. The ones who, though it might take a little while, are willing to recognize that they alone are responsible for the damage they've caused. The ones who hate what they did and hate the pain they've caused us. The ones who want to understand who they are and how they can become a better person. Who want to like the guy they see in the mirror.
My husband was one of those guys. But I couldn't see it until I stopped "knowing" quite so much. It was only when I challenged my own "facts" that I was able to see my own fiction.
I was right about a few things but wrong about plenty.
And I continue to be wrong. Just ask my kids.
Opening my mind to others' perspectives has changed how I interact with everyone in my life. I can no longer presume to understand what's driving anyone's behaviour. Truth is, I don't know. Sometimes they don't even know. But being willing to listen, to take the time to challenge not only my own version of events but others' versions too, gets us all to a place where we better understand ourselves and them.
It's tough. We hate not knowing. But not knowing gives us the opening into knowing better.
The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
Elle, this is the most powerful words you have written. Your insight to get to the bottom of a matter revealing truths is phenomenal to say the least. This post is one I will reread going forward. I didn't listen either because I thought I already knew the answers and some I ignored. Your going deep and thanks for sharing with us.
ReplyDeleteI disagree agree with one comment. Men aren't dogs. Dogs are loyal.
ReplyDeleteLynnlesspain
DeleteI agree! My dog is faithful and loyal! My h on the other hand is a very selfish man! He's trying not to be but truth is he can't help being who he is!
Elle
ReplyDeleteThis is the kind of post that allowed me to stop me from talking about my feelings and really listen to what my h was saying... I'm one that can see the changes in the broken man becoming the better man. I believe it was Hopeful 30 that spoke of six months for a behavior change to become a new habit. I'm finding this is true. I've watched my man blossom into a more mature man who once again I can respect. Have I completely gotten through it all? Probably not because I continue to battle self esteem issues but I'm more aware that it is my short coming to work on and so each day I make the effort to the best of me. In the little things! I'm such a fan of Terri St. Cloud! Thanks for introducing me to her! I'm so grateful for the women I've met here! I'm lighting my candle for my meditation hour and will be praying for peace for my fellow warriors!
Elle wow you made me think today! I had another thought. I thought I knew my husband. Because I thought I knew him it kept me from really knowing him. Of course something's he hid about himself but NOW I'm seeing my husband and learning about him. I had a therapy session just to address what I know now that I don't like about him. Because I put him on a ridiculous pedestal I didn't really see his weaknesses. I didn't even know who I was. I learned he is not the hero I thought he was at all. He is not a bad or evil or mean but how he looks at things is so different from me at a core soul level. Even if I asked the right questions before I married him there is no guarantee he would have told me the truth. Very insightful Elle.
ReplyDeleteI love and identify with absolutely everything about this post. I have learned this the hard way over and over again throughout this experience. I feel like I've listened and allowed my husband to rewrite my internal story about this so that it's closer to the truth more than once. I can imagine this process will continue for a while. I will have to tell him the story in my mind, he will have to counter it with what really happened/how he really felt. I think it is also true that there are some parts of the story that I will never know or understand. Just like the concept of infinity... I wasn't there and I'm not in his head, so I can only approach the whole entire story one step at a time without ever actually reaching the totality of it. Some subtleties I will likely never know like what were these OW thinking? What exactly did he say about me to "the guys"? Didn't any bystanders feel the slightest bit disgusted by his behavior? It is helpful to use the same strategy with those things I can't really get from anyone by asking. The source of information for these stories I tell myself is not reliable. It is better to leave an open space than to fill it with lies and doubts. I may wait forever, but it's better to stay curious about these things and open than to decide to believe a voice that comes from the worst parts of myself (fear, insecurity...) Thank you so much for tying these things together for me, Elle!
ReplyDeleteElle, Excellent post. I feel this hits home with me on many levels. I do think that society and our culture shaped what I thought about infidelity. I said all those same things you stated above. And it is so true once I got past the initial hurt and a burning desire to dig for more details and answers I started forward progress. What rings most true is that we have both worked to be better listeners. I look back and think we both were just talking a lot and no one was listening. Now we both listen and absorb what each other is saying or feeling and it has become really powerful.
ReplyDeleteI still struggle and question him and us at times. But yesterday was a bad day for various reasons around the household. Nothing catastrophic or to do with him but just house stuff that was unexpected I had to deal with. When he called me leaving from work I told him about it all. I was cranky, irritated and tired. In the past I would have not told him since if I had it would have all been turned on me. Instead he said that is horrible, I am sorry you had to deal with all of that and how can I help. I was surprised but also so happy. When he came home he told me how it came natural for him. He did not have to think about it or force himself to say that. He said it was a big deal for him. He said he used to tell himself he worked hard and was tired and did not need to deal with me, the kids, the house... So the fact that he is figuring this out on his own and it is coming natural is huge. It is these little moments that make a huge difference. I feel heard and validated now instead of dismissed. And it gives me motivation to keep working on me and us. Thanks for everything!
Oh my. That was intense, Elle. Going to sit with that for awhile and reread it.
ReplyDeleteSomewhere along those lines, I just found this essay in Cosmo that talks about other false stories about why they cheat. This discussion about the OW comes up here often. We can easily fall into this unhelpful narrative of us women being the one's in charge of keeping the relationship together lest the man lose his way with some slut. And while the OW is not off the hook, nor an innocent bystander, we can't make someone behave ethically or answer to us. I thought this essay was a great reminder that the affair and sexual acting out was about him all along.
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a8289353/stop-blaming-the-other-woman-for-ruining-relationships/?src=socialflowTW
I agree that it is ultimately our husband's responsibility to us and our marriage. They are the ones that took the vows with us not the ow. However, as I have now been made aware that there is a different type of woman that plays this ow role. At least for my husband I do not know anyone like these women. These women pushed their way into his life. He pushed them both away, one he denied giving his cell number to for 4-5 years and she persisted. She would go around finding out where he would be so she could show up and would press him for his number. He said he finally gave in after the 4-5 years of her pushing him. Of course this is his fault in the end and he did not handle himself well. Both women knew he was married and had kids. And he has sworn up and down that he never complained or mentioned me or the kids. He said his worst nightmare would have been for his worlds to collide. It was a true escape. He said he knew it was wrong before, during and after he did it. He broke up with them long before dday and he is not sure what they were in it for. From what he said he tried to know as little as possible about them. He does not know about their siblings, families etc. But this all went on for 10 years sporadically. Once he broke up with them he did not hear from them. There was one point of contact from each when the mutual friend that introduced both of them to my husband died. He never responded and they never contacted him again. So I have no idea what these women were in it for. But they are so different than me or anyone else I am close friends with. I do see them as broken hurt people too. Maybe they were hoping something would come of it but I do not get any indication of that. So I guess they were in it for the fling too? Who knows. Maybe someday I will come to peace with them but for now I still hold them to blame and am much more aware of the behavior of females we are around.
DeleteSo much for me to think about in that post!! I find myself wanting to "know" every detail of why where when how..... My head is full of questions and very few answers!!! 18 months on I really don't know if I can get over this.... I can see the changes my husband has made, the regret the remorse he feels but yet I still think about them together every day!!! It drives me mad! I'm exhausted!! I feel he has moved on from the affair and is happier in his new self while I am still stuck..... I feel the need to get revenge..... Her husband doesn't know about her actions and I feel so hard done by!! She's continuing on her life... He's making a new life ( yes with me and the kids!) and there has been no consequences for them!?!? I don't know if I can stay married anymore and I'm scared I'm never going to feel anything except emptiness ever again!!!
ReplyDeleteWomanlost,
DeleteSo much of what you said resonates with me. I feel the exact same way. I want to know every single detail (and I want to hear it over and over again). My constant thought about it all exhausts me. One of the OW lives in my town and has an intact marriage where no one knows what she did. She posts constantly on social media about her strong marriage. It is all I can do not to tell the whole world so that she will at least have some consequences. While it doesn't seem fair at all to me that I should suffer so much while she continues on, it is also true that I am living in a light and truth now inside my marriage that she cannot find without coming clean. Would I choose to be her? Not for one minute. Sometimes the heaviness of what my husband did threatens to flatten me and I, too, wonder if I can do this. Then something happens and I find the strength to keep going. I, too, am not completely committed to staying married. I am constantly readying myself to walk out "if this" or "if that" happens. I guess I've given myself permission to leave whenever I want. After all, he broke our marriage when he broke our vows. If I feel at any point that I'm not respected or cherished, I'm prepared to walk. My present day is good. My past is painful and my future is scary, but in my present day my husband loves me and shows me. He works hard to repair the damage and I work hard to let him. Hugs to you! You are not alone. Not one thing about this is easy!!
Womanlost, I too have felt very similar to you. My husband's ow were not married and have not returned in any way to our lives thankfully. So that is slightly different. But they are going about supposedly happy from the little bit I know. At times i have really been bitter about that. I made a decision to avoid looking them up or seeing any aspect of their lives. I found all it made me feel was sad, mad, upset, and angry. I am at 20 months and things have really started to turn around for me. We have had a lot of progress but I felt stuck. My therapist said he could tell for a long time I was holding back while my husband was basically doing everything right. He said that is healthy and normal. But now he is so happy that I am letting my guard down and allowing myself to be more vulnerable. The only way I can describe it is I have had to take a leap of faith. I have second guessed everything and been suspicious of everything since dday. It feels nice to not be so intensely vigilant. I am still aware and my husband and I are communicating at a high level but I am being more open. One thing I have noticed is I am happier. Nothing earth shattering or anything but I just feel happier. What worked for me was basically one day I just made the decision if I wanted to try and make this marriage work I was going to just let go of the past. I still have triggers and we still discuss things but it is more him bringing things up or just about our marriage in general. The shift and focus is off of the affairs. Hang in there!
Deleteann
DeleteI think when I got to the point that I knew I would be okay without my h by my side, I could begin to see how I could stay by his side. It took a lot of time and it hasn't been easy but we do have a new normal to our lives.
Theresa, Excellent insight. I think that is so true. I realized I had the confidence and also the reality of the situation was not what I was telling myself. And in the end when he saw me go through that and get to that point he has been more invested and committed than ever. Kind of full circle.
DeleteWoman Lost,
DeleteI wanted to know every detail too. And I mean detailed details. I'm an analyzer type who needs the details in order to understand. Even though you are 18 months out it is still not that long for the betrayed. What you want is all questions answered. So what is preventing you from getting the answers? Is it him (rug sweeping, minimizing or omitting? or you (defensive, critical, lash out)? My husband set a side every Sunday morning for questions. So what if he feels uncomfortable trying being betrayed. I explained to my husband that if I don't get answers then I end up making shit up in my mind to fill the missing pieces. And my imagination maybe telling me something that is not true so he can set me straight on the truth. It is part of my healing. Just listening to him is very hard. Then I would try process what he said.
As far as revenge with the OW there is nothing you can do about that unless you tell her husband. You need to decide if this will give you peace. Of course your husband doesn't want you tell him. DUH. For me, knowing myself, I would have to extend the same courtesy as I would want to know. Your husband lost his chance to make decisions for you. All along the way I did what would help me heal even if everyone told me not to do it. I decided by can I live the rest of my life in peace if I don't do this?
You mentioned the injustice of him "getting away with it". Ask him how this has changed him or affected him. Ask him to tell you when the overwhelming guilt triggers him and why. As my husband opens up to me his guilt is deeper than I expected. Most of you - you are in control. Get that control and do what is best for you. Do what is compassionate for you. I threw all the rules out the window when it happened and did what was best for me. My therapist said I would rather have a flawed man who would do anything to make me happy than a perfect man who didn't give a shit about me. I took a wait and see attitude.
How do I "know" I'm doing the right thing by staying married????
ReplyDeleteI guess I look at it this way... Before Dday, I "knew" I was doing the right thing by staying married (I was misguided). After Dday, I will never "know" anything again unless it is something I've come to know about myself. Everything else requires some level of risk/benefit analysis. Sometimes I miss my old self that "knew" things and didn't have to live in a world where I could be doing laundry at home and my husband could have his hands down a flight attendant's pants in a hotel room at the same time. Once I came to know that this is the world I've always lived in without knowing it, what I "know" and "don't know" became far less important that what actually IS. I miss that old me that was so sure of everything, but she was missing a lot in life too. Things that I will now claim whether I stay married or not. For now I choose to stay married because of who my husband is showing me he is, but I certainly do not "know" anything except a whole lot more about myself and the world. I understand completely why you ask that question! I would love to have that assurance too. I would give so much to "know" again.
DeleteI have asked myself this a lot too. I have different thoughts. The main one is there really is no guarantee with anyone. I have so much invested with my husband and our family that I want to just give it my best effort. So based on Elle's advice and my therapist setting boundaries and finding ways to communicate better with my husband and be more assertive we have gotten to a really good place. It has been hard and long. Will we be married forever who knows. But as Elle always says just focus on your next decision. I have really embraced that. I try not to look at the past or the future but really live in the present. If something is bothering me though I speak up, in a respectful productive way but I do not let anything fester. I have had thoughts many days and weeks questioning if I should stay married. But as of today I am so invested and it has come from me working on myself and watching my husband's efforts to better himself and invest in me and the kids.
DeleteWomanlost
DeleteThe sad truth is that not one of us has a guarantee that the decision we made to stay is the right thing to do but as long as it feels like it's a good decision, I plan to give it my best shot!
Womanlost,
DeleteI'm with the women who've commented. If there's anything such a betrayal does, it's that it forces us to acknowledge that we never EVER really know what someone else is capable of. That can feel terrifying. But, with time and the setting of our own boundaries and the recognition of our own power, we come to realize that all we ever could control is ourselves. The rest was all an illusion. And now we see that. But only controlling what we can is liberating. It frees us up. And it allows us to move through the world with a focus on what's right for us, giving others the freedom to do the same.
Life is peaks and valleys, Womanlost. Make your choice based on what you know now and what you want moving forward. Your next right step. That's all you need.
Thank you so much for the response...... We've had a rough week and yesterday he said he'd had enough..... He couldn't explain or answer any more questions and he felt hopeless about our marriage as I didn't seem to be able to move forward. At that point I realised I really didn't want our marriage to end and decided I'd have to stop obsessing on the past... Today is a good day and I've promised myself to try and just concentrate on today and being happy in the moment.... Might keep me focused!!!
DeleteMy other worry is ( sorry if I'm being a pain!!) should I feel responsible for telling the OW's husband?? Should I feel guilty for not telling him??? Is that my business??? ( I don't know him btw!)
Womanlost,
DeleteI struggle with this same question. I don't know the H of one of the OW, but they live in my town. I don't know what the right answer is myself, so I will be anxious to see what others think. At first, I decided to put off that decision because I couldn't be sure of my motivation. I didn't want to tell him to spread the pain around and get back at her. If I told, I wanted it to be in the spirit of helping him. I do feel a responsibility to him. I think about him and worry about him all the time. On Instagram, he appears to be a nice person (lol, what do I know? Maybe she cheated on him to get back at him for cheating on her!). After time passed (8 months now), I still can't be sure that my telling him is the right thing to do so I sit with it. If I bump into him, I guarantee I will need to say something. I just can't bring myself to message him on social media out of the blue with the sole purpose of telling. It opens up communication that is now closed, it stirs up things in his marriage that he may have already dealt with (maybe she told him and they are working it our like we are), and I would still take great pleasure in wrecking her life (and I don't want to feed that part of myself.) It's further complicated for me because the oral sex with his wife took place a year and a half ago. I found out about it a year after it happened. If she has a pattern going, won't she eventually be outed by someone or something else that doesn't require my risk of intervention? If she doesn't have a pattern going, maybe she has already healed herself through therapy? So many questions and so many things to consider. I do wish I could happen on to a face-to-face and just get it over with!
My motivation is to make her suffer like I'm suffering..... as in my marriage and family are at risk so I feel so should hers!!! Because this is my primary motivation I have held off telling him as I'm not a destructive person and don't really want to turn into one! Also I don't want people to know my husband choose someone like her to have an affair with and am afraid it will become public if I tell her husband..... So I suppose I feel these are both selfish reasons on my part so best to keep quiet for now?? But I dream of ways to make her suffer......
DeleteI'm reading Steven Stosney's Love without Hurt at the moment and finding it revelationary. The focus of the book is about how relationships can become emotionally abusive, from the minor level to full violence. In his books and on his website compassionpower.com he explores how men and women can through their own feeling of inadequacy, low self-esteem etc interact with resentment leading to stonewalling, dismissiveness, and all the other mechanisms that make their partners feel devalued, unloved and so on. In turn these poor interactions (some of which may have been forged in the family of origin) in themselves contribute in the perpetrator to a feeling of self-loathing. If you are operating in a steam of resentment, it's a low level poison of yourself, you don't love who you are when you feel that way. As you say Elle, there may be men who 'are dogs' or just want things their way and their are many relationships that seem to be great before the affair. However, personally, I can definitely see how my husband's emotional affair was an attempt to make him feel better about himself, the self-hatred was evident even before the affair. In Love without Hurt there is a great intro on how men's main hope is to protect and provide for their families but we know if they feel they aren't measuring up the hatred often turns against themselves but also of course the resentment and anger turns outward towards the partner. I know for sure that my husband and I were in a cycle of resentment, negative interactions and self-loathing caused by a combination of outside pressures and our own lack of love for ourselves. Stosney's Living and Loving after Betrayal and other books work on reinforcing our sense of our core values, what is steadfast and wonderful about ourselves. This works for bolstering the betrayed but, as you say, Elle, the betrayer who is also hurt. In any case reading this latest book (Love without Hurt) has given me more of a coherent 'reason' for D-Day 2. My husband really knew what he had done and wanted to make up for it. He sent a lovely text WHILE answering the OWs reengagement pings (after 9 months.) He has understood that he went back to make himself feel better. Now I see how, paradoxically, his going back was, in a way, a marker of the good in him. He was so aware and sickened by what he had done that he hated himself. But instead of raising himself up in a positive way, he chose (in desperation) the most skewed and messed up to rectify the balance. When we reconcile, the cheater spends lots of time facing into how awful he is, how he has gone against his own core beliefs. Its vital for them to find positive ways to feel good about themselves or they may just go back to the addictive way. We focus on our own healing but unless they/we can find a way to celebrate the good in themselves, further problems might occur. Certainly working on breaking a cycle of blame and resentment in this house, while working on ways to believe in our great qualities will be a healthier way forward. I don't have any connection to Steven Stosney but I've found an a-ha moment in how to do that in his books so wanted to share that.
ReplyDeleteFragments of Hope, Yes to everything you've said. The truly repentant cheater (and the one I would argue is a good bet for rebuilding a marriage) is the one who really faces what he's done and is disgusted by it.
DeleteThis is excellent. Yes yes yes. Going to read and re-read
ReplyDeleteHow do you trust their version? My H tells me all the time that I create my own versions and reasons and stories that are not accurate. I tell him it's because his tales do not necessarily match the words and text messages I read for myself. Unfortunately for me, the text messages that were left behind (because he thought he erased all of them) were only one text of a longer correspondence. But because the rest of the text strings are gone, I cannot get closure to what was really said. Guess what I do?? That's right, fill in the blanks myself. Then he tells me I am not accurate, I tell him his stories don't match with what was written, and the cycle starts all over again. My H affair was an emotional affair. So that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. How do you come to a point of believing what they say? He says he had been 100% honest and has told me everything but I still can't help but to call bullshit. And when I try to explain why I don't believe him, he gets angry that I am making up my own conclusions and elaborations. My "elaborations" are what keep me from moving on. They are the things I don't know if I can live with. Am I just being self sabotaging or is my gut trying to speak to me? The same gut I ignored when I thought something was going on between them and looked the other way. Or am I so messed up right now that I shouldn't trust anything that goes on in my head? I hate feeling crazy, uncertain, discombobulated, and like a ship without a rudder. I used to be so confident and sure footed. How do you tell your own fantasy from reality?
ReplyDeleteFight like a girl, I felt the same way about what my husband did and did not tell me. We went around and around for too long in my opinion. He was on some level protecting me and him since he said you cannot unhear things. He is in the mental health field so he knows how damaging that can be. And I was hysterical. My therapist really pushed me to think about how much I want or need to know. I have done the same thing fill in details or dream up what else went on. For me in the end I decided that my husband could never tell me enough details and they would never satisfy me. He had two affairs, one for 10 years and one for about 8 years overlapping. But both sporadic. He doesn't even remember which year the one began.
DeleteThrough our recovery/healing what I realized is that as he has gone through this process since dday he sees everything differently now than he did on dday, 6 months after etc. He was in a different spot on dday etc and that shaped how he saw the situation. On dday he was protecting himself and minimizing everything, now he said he is almost physically ill when he thinks about who he was and what he did. So I guess what I am trying to say is what I see is my husband could describe the same event he did to me on dday and it would be a totally different description now. This is hard for me I remember every detail of my life. For him not so much even on good things.
Another thing that helped was I think it was Steam said using imagery think about yourself in 20 years looking at a photo from now. Do you want it to be a color photo with you enjoying your life or a black and white photo all worn and tattered and negative looking. I thought about that and how I wanted to live my life. It has not been easy but with the support of my therapist he has helped me get past this road block.
Fight like a girl
DeleteI so understand how you feel when you don't have the answer that can give clarity. My h ow spent six months dribble dropping her truths and I had to hear my h tell me in his words how it happened in the first place and why the hell did her feelings mean more to him than mine if he really wanted our marriage. I used the rubber band that Elle suggested along with the stop sign at the end of our street to keep me from the mind movie of them together. The texts you read are part of the fantasy created by them and don't necessarily reflect your h true feelings! It hurt like hell when my h told me he had feelings for this ow but in his own words, it wasn't love that he felt. I named it lust. He even admitted that he pursued this woman much like he did me on those weekends during the affair. I wrote everything down that I thought had happened and then my h gave me his version that filled in the blanks for me. However, I also had to accept that I didn't need to know too many of the fine details the fact remains that he cheated! He learned a lot about himself and he chose to make changes in himself for himself and we both benefit from his changes.
Fightlikeagirl,
DeleteI think Hopeful30 make a good point re. the changes you're seeing in your husband. It sounds as if he's still arguing with you about what happened. And, frankly, I'm not sure the details matter that much. What you need to see is that a) he's totally owning the pain he's caused you, b) he isn't making excuses or minimizing the impact of what he did and c) he's willing to do whatever it takes to earn back your trust. If those are in place, the details become distractions that you're better off ignoring, at least for now.
Fightlikeagirl, Also one other thing I thought about that I discussed with my therapist that helped was asking the more meaningful questions. Instead of how many times did you have sex, how many times did you meet etc. It was more about how did you communicate, did she contact you or was it mutual, did you meet in public, were your friends around, did you buy her anything, did you discuss a future, did you discuss our marriage, did you discuss our kids. I guess I wanted to get a picture not of the details but more of what this meant in his life. I quickly realized it was just an outlet/escape like working out or playing golf. It did not hold a lot of meaning. So instead of the questions I would normally be satisfied with getting the answers to I went more broad with them. I also felt it allowed me as I healed to understand what I felt like I needed to be vigilant about. Not that it cannot come from another angle but was it all email, phone calls... Not sure if that helps but it got me off focusing on the minutiae and more what it meant. Now thought it is crazy my husband cries and is almost physically ill when he talks about it.
DeleteVery difficult. My h had no idea why he did it. Then we dug and dug and dug some more. He eventually told me it was because when I didn't initiate sex or affection it meant I didn't love him. All the ish I did for him meant NOTHING but sex was apparently the key to love. When he stopped listening to me that meant he didn't love me. But I NEVER stopped loving him. And now he's making the choice to be with the OW. She is broken and sad and f-ed the f up beyond anything and if he had half a functioning brain he would RUN the other direction. I'm sorry but she is a doormat like none I've ever heard of before and she wants him to take care of her and her kid. He's "the nicest person" she's ever met. Well sure. When he doesn't hit you, steal your 401k, rape you, take your SSN and bankrupt you with bank accounts and a false mortgage then he does seem like a pretty good deal. Even compared to the serial cheater at least my h only cheated once. With the whore. I hate her and him so much right now it makes me physically ill to think about. He is going to end up broken up with her and I will be alone because of his TERRIBLE decisions. I have to try to move on but I only want to give up. I know what we could be if he tried to fix himself but he just can't. He even said he can't and I'm so disappointed and hurt.
ReplyDeleteMy husband said the exact same thing. There was something wrong with him. It had nothing to do with me or our marriage. He hurts still because I hurt and I know that he can't handle seeing me in that kind of pain. But he's the one who holds me when I break down crying, wipes the tears away and tries even harder. He had a hard time looking at himself in the mirror let alone looking me in the face during the short time he fucked up. But she on the other hand always looked me straight in the eye trying to be all friendly as did the other 2 women involved. I know now that these women who create such messes in other people's lives thrive on the drama and destruction. Not only that but, to make a plan and carry it out and that plan included giving someone drugs. What the hell kind of people do this? And then, when it all blows up in their faces they put the blame on everyone but themselves. Narcissists or just plain crazy? I also think that these women are broken beyond repair since infidelity runs in their families. Maybe not all OW are like this maybe some are fooled. But they all live in some kind of fantasy world.
ReplyDeleteI know that our story sounds like a fictional novel and sometimes I have a hard time believing it myself and I watched it unfold. All I know is that
finding out all the details on his end and what I watched happen is probably what made us heal faster. And knowing that these 3 women were called an embarrassment to their Indian Nation made things easier on me too. Whatever fantasy these women were living backfired on them and their lives are not what they planned. And as we continue to build a stronger marriage far away from these three, they will still be traveling in their circle of infidelity, alcohol, and putting the blame on everyone else because they did nothing wrong.
I think everyone goes through different emotions in the face of betrayal. We all have our own stories and we all deal with them differently. Whether we stay or leave, believe what is being told to us by our husbands or putting all the blame on the OW (who does deserve to be blamed), we all have gut instincts of what is being said and sometimes it's a big slap in our faces. Once the fog of hurt leaves our brains and our hearts we can see things in a different manner. I for one do not want it to take years of going over and over again. My friend is going on 8 years with her husband's choices. I for one can't live that way anymore. After 15 months of dealing with the pain, I told myself enough, I just want to move forward with my husband and build something even stronger. And yes he said all of those things to me too. It wasn't you or our marriage, I was broken and the OW is broken and will always be because she has a history of going after married men. He got the help he needed, I got help but it was him that helped me the most. The remorse he feels makes him try even harder. He puts effort into spending more time with me. We now talk to each other, not just raising kids and paying bills but like we used to when we first started dating. We found things we like to do together like hiking. Things we never had time to do before. It took me a whole year of living hell to find out what really happened. And I wanted every detail. Did it hurt? You bet it did. My husband's story never changed throughout the whole year but the OW's story changed daily and we were informed every single time. So as my hate for the OW diminishes and she is starting to become a distant bad memory. I've grown to trust him again and find that I want something more between the two of us. Something better and stronger then what I thought that we had before this mess consumed our lives.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, This is exactly what I talked with my therapist about yesterday. He said at a certain point you are ready to move on. He said though he has seen a lot where the wife just cannot move past what was done. Whether it is comments, reminding him of what he has done, little jabs, holding it over his head in whatever way but it just never stops. And I am totally not of the belief that we act like this never happened and it is not to be discussed. However I did get to that point where based on the effort and work my husband did, our conversations and work together and the life we are rebuilding we started to move past it. I find now we focus on our relationship. I am so glad though this is where we are. I know that it is crucial that we keep working on ourselves individually and as a couple. It was a horrible thing to go through all of this but I want to save our marriage, he has done the right things and in the end I realize I am so much happier. It took time but I am getting there.
DeleteElle, perhaps when you tire of writing you can get your PhD in therapy? This post drives home such a deep and necessary truth for me on every level. Putting my own pain second and listening to his pain is the hardest thing I can do and thanks to you I've been practicing this regularly. My husband so wants my forgiveness and I've examined that from many angles. It is just hard to imagine "forgiveness" and figure out what that means. His pain (from childhood) led him to cheat, use porn and prostitutes and basically emotionally withdraw from our family. I am thinking that even if I get to forgiveness I may never fully trust him again. He lives a good life now. He is so happy about his life and choices. The past few days I've had triggers and thoughts that are hard to swallow but I think I've been able to rise above them. He is a broken man and he made terrible choices that he knows about and has to live with. He has to look himself in the mirror every day and know that. He is working hard to be the man he wants to be and the man I thought I married. Storm's advice that Hopeful 30 reminded us of about looking back at ourselves is so very important. I want to look back and see that I've lived a good life, I've lived true to my and I've loved all the right people in all the right ways. He has to deal with how he looks back on his life. We are two different people. I would have to say that he lives his life to make me happy, make us happy and he is a loving, kind and protective man in every way. I recognize that sometimes the hardness in my heart says, "that will never be enough" and I have to let that go. He deserves another chance and I don't want to blow up my children's lives or my future. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You rock.
ReplyDeleteBeach Girl, It is so powerful when we start really working to live the life we want and deserve. My husband talks a lot about wanting to leave a positive legacy. He is ashamed and saddened every day by his actions. I know he thinks about it all the time. But he is on the right track living the life he feels he should and honoring me, our marriage and our kids and leaving that quality legacy.
DeleteAs far as forgiveness I felt it was about me telling him that I forgive but not forget. And it was at the point when I could tell he knew and felt so deeply how wrong he had been to do what he did. I think it was when he finally expressed to me how bad he was hurting. I figured that it was fun and exciting for him. Otherwise why do it over and over. Seems crazy to me. But when he was able to reflect and verbalize it to me I did forgive him. We still talk about it but I found that it was relief for me more than him. He will never forget and let it go completely. In fact I think he might hold on to it more than I will in the long run. But for me it allowed some sort of freedom and I felt better after that.
Trust is another issue and that is something he has to continue to prove to me. He wants me to be happy and trust him so badly but we will see where that goes. So for me they were two separate issues/feelings.
One thing my husband said to me that I thought about a lot is if I am giving him a second chance what does that look like. And he is right am I saying here is your second chance or am I taking actions to give him a second chance. Just like I expect him to take actions to restore my trust in him. So I am working really hard to give him a true second chance.
Hopeful 30, my husband and I spent several hours yesterday laying down, crying and talking about forgiveness and trust. Among other things I told him that I recently read that "forgiveness means giving up any thought of retaliation" and I told him I no longer wanted to do that. As for trust, I trusted him for 37 years and he blew it big time. He knows that and it hurts him deeply that I don't trust him. He desperately wants that and yesterday he said, "The biggest thing I want is your trust and it is the thing I always had from you and lost". Well, true. I don't know if I will ever fully trust him again. He is really doing well I think. Of course, now that he is retired and we are basically together all the time, he has no time to find porn and prostitutes in real time but he tells me that he will never go back to that ever again. Internally I'm skeptical but I keep that to myself. He promises me daily he will never ever hurt me or betray me again. I take that with a grain of salt because it is hard to imagine trusting him again. I want to believe him and his behavior is good. His actions seem sincere. We have fun, we laugh, we talk, we have great sex, we hold hands, we eat and sleep and do things together but there is still a part of me that wonders if he began experiencing stressors in his life again, would he talk to me about them or would he "act out"? I can't predict the future and he is afraid I might still leave him. I've told him I am committed to my marriage as long as he does not have a slip. I'm a zero tolerance person now. He had years to seek help, reach out to me and make different choices. I'm 65 now and I'm not going to go through this again. One chance. So far it has been worth the risk. I am a very kind, loving compassionate woman, friend, mother, wife and grandmother. This has been the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with including the loss of my mother. The world still thinks he is a stand-up guy who is kind, loving and devoted to me. Wow, having to keep that secret pisses me of so much at times. Our children and so many people in our lives continually say, "I hope I have your marriage" and stuff like that. Makes me blanch. He says, "Just say to people, well my husband can also be a toad but you don't see that part." Life is definitely getting better.
DeleteBeach Girl,
DeleteI am right there with you on flinching when other people comment on how great our marriage is. On the one hand, they are right. They just don't know the great cost I've paid (we've paid) to build it, tear it down, and rebuild it again. I usually resist the urge to blurt out the dark truth.
I also refuse to forgive this again. In fact, I refuse to put up with a lot of things that I was putting up with in the past. My H's choices have freed me from the "until death do us part" vow I think. I will leave when I want to/feel I need to. I no longer imagine just one future for myself (retirement travel with a loving husband, being grandparent together...). Now I can imagine several scenarios for myself. Maybe I will have that (I hope to), but maybe I will have other adventures. Maybe I will live in a city I've always wanted to live in that my H isn't interested in. Maybe I will reinvent myself in any number of ways if things don't work out... It's freeing. It sucks too, but it's freeing.
I don't know what to do with popular culture views that creep out in conversation about infidelity, and I don't know what to do when people make incorrect assumptions about me or my marriage. Figuring out how to feel authentic about this is one of my goals in this new life.
Almost all the changes in me benefit my husband too, but not all. For example, now I bring stuff up all the time and want to talk about it to make sure I'm understanding his frame of mind. If my husband is too tired to have sex (doesn't happen often, but does on occasion), it becomes a conversation instead of me just shrugging it off as totally ok like I would have in the past. When my husband seems a little worn out with having the same "just checking" conversations, I have said, "I know. Sometimes I miss her too! That first wife of yours (me)... She was easy to be with! Not demanding at all! Your second wife (me) is healthier, and looks better, but she can be a bit of a handful." He either smiles a bit and hugs me, or at least gets less annoyed. I stop myself short of saying, "When you're looking for your 3rd wife, be sure to pick one that hasn't been cheated on with 5 other women in the past. Those chicks are batshit crazy!" I don't say it because it's a jab to him and calls me (falsely) crazy, but I do think it. --My sense of humor has always been dark, so I have to really try to consider that some of my thoughts would not be funny to others.
I know it wasnt about me, i know she could have been anyone willing and able and i know its one of the biggest mistakes of my Husbands life ... his words. 19mo out i can see it hurt immeasurable to be me and still stings but i have finally been able to see his pain too and while it sucks this happened to me id rather that position then knowing daily i was the one who did it thats his path which includes random acts of kindness and him still telling me sorry where i respond. I know. Staying in the day, taking care of me and focusing on us helps and knowing the next step is all i need to focus on ... looking back to reflect what change and looking to plan ahead is somewhat wasteful as nothing is guaranteed ... its taking me this long to get her and much of last year is a blur but im here ... standing.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like many of us are in the same place and on the similar timeline. It is interesting how now we are able to see their pain. And I too would rather be in my shoes. I can't imagine and would never do what he did. I would struggle to get through that since I have now realized we are such different people. I do realize though it is much harder for him than I would have imagined. It has been a long road but I love we can connect here and talk about our ups and downs and progress.
DeleteI am one month since D-Day #3. I still can't sleep without taking something because I have night terrors of the two of them together and him sending countless emails bad mouthing me to her, adult dating sites and his mother and planning a future with the one he had sex with. I do think he feels guilty. And he keeps saying that it was his fault and he is so sorry. Sometimes I tell him how much I hurt.
ReplyDeleteMost days I suffer in silence. But he also blames me for the way he felt about our relationship prior to starting the affair. Told me he only ended it because of our young child. He has not taking accountability for his shortcomings in our relationship prior to the affairs or recognize that I must've been needing more from him too, but I chose to keep my pants on and put my focus on things like work. He is trying to be more romantic & complements me all the time. W e are in IC & MC and having sex as good as when we were dating and first married on a very frequent basis. Still with all of that I don't feel like he has really gotten deeper and understanding why HE was unhappy with HIMSELF that led him to the affairs. And he has said sorry many times but not yet asked for my forgiveness. I wish he would so I can be more confident in letting him regain my trust and love. Otherwise I need to protect my heart because I will not survive another affair even if it's cyber. I am in the "no decision is the right decision" for now, but if those things don't occur I don't know how/when I will know which road to take for the future. Or is what he is doing so far good enough. Those of you that are further out, I need to hear from you...
Gosh I can't imagine d day number 3, yet at the same time I've been through #1 d day of emotional/physical affair, discovery of Ashley Madison, Adult Friend Finder and various other cyber type shit. I'm exhausted by what I've discovered in our 19 years married. It's so hurtful. I'm 20 months out from d day and although I've healed sooooo much it's still just a weight. I wish it could just lift and remove itself from me. I shed 16 pounds in 3 weeks after d day and was 100 pounds and sick. Nerves/stress/lack of sleep all kicked in and I was a mess for a good 12 months. At the one year mark I regained some weight and sleep and today I feel better than ever. It just saddens me all the turmoil that my body went through and mind!
ReplyDeleteBrowneyedgirl - it sounds like you are on the right track with him. I do think he needs to ask for your forgiveness and my H needs to too! We can move on and try and not bring up the past, but if they are not learning a lesson then maybe that's why it's repeating! Take a stance that you would like him to commit, ask for forgiveness and move on in a positive direction. How else can you move forward and close the book? As I type, it's making sense that I need to do this too. Almost 20 years of BS is too long! I hope you are doing well Browneyedgirl! This is so very hard and the ongoing pain is hard to manage at times.
D day #1 I caught when it was just flirtation/planning. No sex yet but I still consider it an affair. They would have had sex had I not read the emails. Dday #2 was cyber. Although no physical I also consider it an affair. But they were all years apart. Dday #3 was discovering something physical happened in between those but years ago and he lied and I just found out.
DeleteI am so sorry. I know for me dday 2 was much worse emotionally than dday 1. Dday 1 was a shock but dday 2 hurt so much worse. For me everything he did was bad enough but after all the discussions that took place in those five months it felt like a much worse betrayal.
ReplyDeleteWe are 20 months out from dday 1 and things have gotten dramatically better. I would say me going to therapy, being more assertive, and setting boundaries have all helped. It has been a lot of hard work and finally me taking the leap and allowing myself to be more vulnerable. Being vulnerable is the hardest part for me. I realized I cannot control him early on so it is scary. The boundaries make the biggest difference.
I think it is good you are in ic and mc. Take care of yourself and figure out in time what you need and want. I know this will never go away and it will always be part of our marriage. It makes me sad at times but in the end it has brought us closer and my husband had more respect for me than ever. My husband never asked for forgivienwss. I can only speak for him but it was not something he felt he could ask for but would come with time. I forgave him when I saw him start to address his deep feelings and he able to express them beyond I am sorry. And he is working at earning my trust but that will take time. And I have been frustrated with my husband not having a set reason why he did this but they all sound like excuses to me. My therapist thinks based on how he is living and expressing his remorse that is sufficient. And he was basically immature, selfish and a taker. I think part of his personality played into it but that is where the boundaries have helped. And the good news is I really could care very little about the ow. That has faded a lot. I am so focused on me and our marriage.
Hang in there and keep coming back to post. I know it has helped us a lot.
Brown eyed girl, I just waited to see how it would play out. I kept vigilant and still played detective. I wanted to see if his changes were going to stick for the long term. I concentrated on myself. who was I? What did I want? I had one Dday that I know about 3 years ago. I'm glad I waited to see how the chapter ended. My fear for you is since this is number 3, he is waiting for the storm to blow over then be back it again. He needs to own his shit and be accountable for your pain. Some things you say about him blaming you is gaslighting. Just from what you said I would be working on plan B and stashing some cash. It almost sounds like a man who hits a woman, says he didn't mean to do and he is sorry. He gets the woman to think it is her fault waits until she calms down to normal then hits her again. Stay vigilant, speak up, speak the truth see what happens. I was responsible for contributing to a sucky marriage. I did not take my husbands penis and drive it over to her house, unzipp his pants and put it in her mouth. He did that all on his own. Sometimes I think our H try to clean up affair talk too much. ( I appreciate when Elle let's me get raw on this site). I don't clean up affair talk anymore when I talk to my husband but I got off the subject. I'm sorry that your husband sounds kind of mean. You are strong enough to figure this out. Just take your time and don't run away or run to anything right now.
ReplyDeleteBrown eyed girl. I can only speak for me, but no. It's not good enough. He says he's sorry but also blames you and says he's only back for your child? No. not good enough. I am hoping your MC is calling him on his callous behavior. We ALL have parts of our relationships that are not perfect. You and he were in the same relationship. You didn't choose to go screw around. An adult would address the issues, so many of these men seem to miss that part of adulthood. One thing he's got right- this IS his fault. Another thing is he's doing. MC. It's shocking to me how many men won't. Going however is not the be all and end all--applying what he discovers there is absolutely necessary. I'm not sure how far out you are from d-day but don't rush yourself to forgiveness. That takes time, sometimes a lot of time. I'm 3 years out from d-day 1 and 6 months our from D-day 2. I approach forgiveness but can honestly say I have not fully forgiven my H. D-day 2 and the horrible trickle truth I got is going to take some time. Yet it's not anger fest over here. I don't hate him. We have a good time, we get along, we're a good team and have over 17 years of history together. My H takes FULL responsibility for his bulllshit and has yet to ask for my forgiveness. I'm not sure he wants to hear a "no" right now and even though I do love him, that's what he'd get.
ReplyDeleteWe have been doing HB for the past few weeks. It's been amazing. But I haven't slept in a month. Every quiet moment I am consumed with thoughts of OW. What I I was told, the rest I assume. Last night I asked CH more questions. Questions I had been praying he would answer differently. He thought they had a future together and he thinks he loved her. I can't bear the pain. Thinking of him having sex with her was unbearable. That he thinks he loved her is so much worse. It was over a decade ago and he is the one who ended it even without me knowing and has not had contact in many years. But I don't think I can get past that he was emotionally invested. Especially because when I ask him questions he tells me the positive things he got out of the affair but never says anything negative about her. If he can't see what an evil person she is how can I recover?
ReplyDeleteBEG you can recover in your own I promise. But we never know (especially at the start) if they will. I think your H is being incredibly cruel and if I were you I would stop asking Him questions. I remember after Dday 1, maybe a month or two in I asked him point blank to tell me something awful about his whore (real whore). I didn't want to hear anything he thought was good. I wanted something that sucked. I got it and felt happier that day and days to follow. If it's over and done with at least that's a relief. But doesn't it just suck that you were in the dark? Man I hate that part.! Hang in there. It's not easy work. But you can make it. Peaks and valleys. I'm still navigating both myself. But no one gets to push me off a ledge anymore. My balance is getting better. Yours will too. Work! Fight! Get it!!
ReplyDeleteSteam--I love your attitude and advice. I never thought of asking that question AND it's a great one.
DeleteAt MC last evening CH finally said some unflattering things about the AP. It felt so good to finally hear that. But then he turned it all around on me and how I am to blame for the bad marriage before the affair. I know we were both to blame. His story keeps changing. First it lasted a year and a half before I was pregnant. Then it was only a month before I gave birth. Now it lasted well after the birth. I had such happy memories of us as a young family. But during those times he says he hated me. I was definitely unhappy at times but there was so much more to be grateful for. I am so depressed. I can't stop crying. My happy memories are a sham. I want the pain to go away. We both want to move on and plan a future. But I can't process the past fast enough for either of us.
DeleteBrowneyedgirl, It will take as long as it takes. You can't fast-track healing. But I've no doubt that listening to him blaming you for everything that was wrong in the marriage certainly isn't helping you. In fact, it seems quite cruel. EACH of you played a role in the state of your marriage before the affair. But HE made the choice to betray you. That's on him. And, to some extent, it doesn't matter how bad the marriage was because his deployment of the nuclear option renders anything else a lesser harm.
DeleteAnd you were pregnant, giving birth, dealing with a newborn, for heaven's sake. Might have been nice if he recognized what YOU were going through.
Browneyedgirl, he doesn't get to set the rules for this reconciliation. There isn't a timeline you can follow so that he gets let off the hook sooner rather than later. He should be working hard every single day to remind you that he will do everything he can to help you heal from this. Sure, he has legitimate anger about the state of your marriage. That's fine. But it needs to be talked about in a way that's healthy. Blaming won't work. Saying he hated you isn't helpful. And lying -- ie.changing his story -- certainly isn't helpful. You need to both be on the same team.
Brown eyed girl
DeleteElle is so right! My h wanted no needed for me to rush the process due to his own selfish need to be past the angry and hurt wife that he was left with due to his own selfish choice to cheat! It's two years for us and it's been up and down and I'm just getting my feet underneath me! Your h needs to grow up a bit and realize just how much damage he's caused and like Elle said begin to do anything and everything he can to help you through the mess he caused! I'm so sorry for what you are going through! This hurts like hell and if he wants your marriage to work he has to realize how much work it really takes! Hang in there! Keep venting here and just know we're here for you! Hugs!
BEG--- your memories are not a sham. Your memories are real and they are yours.
ReplyDeleteElle--didn't you write a post about memories that would help BEG?? I know I read it
Somewhere and I think it was here
BEG-- your h is gaslighting you and it's common. They do it to control the situation and repercussions but don't buy into it. Don't give him the power to take away YOUR memories. They are real
yeah, I did write something about memories. I'll try and remember what it was and where to find it (ha!).
DeleteSeriously, it feels like having to rewrite history. And it's harmful to have someone who refuses to help you fill in the blanks with any accuracy. He is gas lighting you and that's emotional abuse. It's simply not okay. Your memories are yours. None of us remembers events the same way. We can usually agree on the basics but the rest comes from our perspective, our lived experience, our biases, etc. BEG, I suspect that if this guy has been gas lighting you for most of your relationship, you've learned to stop trusting yourself. And you need to trust yourself. You need to begin to find that inner voice and learn that it speaks truth to you.
Yes. That was in your post. I thought it was you.
ReplyDeleteI know I felt the same way as if all my memories were a lie. And then I read your post and I started looking at MY life through a new perspective.
I learned my memories are not lies. They are real and good and worth cherishing. It was he who was the lie. His memories, his stories, his excuses were the lies. Not mine.
Cheaters can take away a lot. But one thing they can't take is what's true and real. You are true and real BEG not HUS lies and gaslighting
Thank you. I like that perspective very much. He did have a negative view of the world. And he gas lights me most times we have an argument. I hope the MC can help us with that. It's one of the things that made it difficult for me to be intimate with him (we still had sex, just not the intimate kind we had in the early years) and that led him to take a whore up on her offer...
Delete