Monday, December 11, 2017

Listen

"The truth is we live in a world where we don’t listen to people anymore. So often we’re just waiting for the next opening to respond. What we need to realize is that sometimes people don’t need advice. Sometimes people just need to be heard. Sometimes the greatest gift we can give someone is just to keep our mouths shut and let them empty themselves into our hands. When they’re finished, we don’t need to do anything with what they’ve given us. We just need to show them that we’re holding it for them till they can catch their breath."
~David Joy, novelist

It has been heartening lately for me to read some comments from betrayed wives who welcome newcomers here with the promise that this site has helped them more than anything else to heal. I take pride in this community that I created out of my own loneliness post-betrayal and that has grown into such a warm and compassionate place. It's rare that someone posts with anything other than a hearty "me too" and, perhaps, some advice borne of experience.
When I read the above quote, it struck me that listening is what this site offers. I've grown frustrated these past few months that I haven't had the time to respond as often as I'd like, or I haven't been able to easily find the words or advice to help those seeking it. And yet...healing continues. Others fill the gap. We listen.
And it is, perhaps, more than anything else, the listening that heals. It is the exquisite relief of finding a community where our story is invited, where our pain is validated, where we are heard. No matter the details of our particular story, the broad strokes are familiar to each. The shock. The bewilderment. The acute pain. The loneliness. The dark "what next?" 
And then, the sigh of recognition that we aren't alone after all. There are others, wonderful, wise and warm-hearted others, who have been where we are. They are funny and smart. They are strong. And they are waiting for us to "empty themselves into [their] hands." It's a beautiful image, isn't it? To imagine emptying our broken hearts into another's warm hands, to be held, to be kept safe, to begin to be made whole again.

It has been a helluva year to be a woman. Each day brings a fresh outrage, new reminders of the ways in which women are harassed and devalued and silenced.
And yet, here we find our voice. 
Within these communities of women – strong smart women – we are reminded of how fierce we are. We remember that we are warriors. We understand that our armour doesn't come from making ourselves hard but keeping ourselves soft. 
One of our fierce-hearted warriors posted a few days ago of the shame she still feels about staying to rebuild her marriage. Others replied with those powerful words, "me too."
I ache to help them banish that shame. I ache to remind each of you of the strength it takes to give a partner a second chance when he's hurt us so profoundly. I wish I could help you see in yourselves the courage I see, no matter which path you're on as you heal, to continue to show up. 
Which takes more courage? To allow our choices to be dictated to us by a culture that traffics in the fantasy that marriage is anything but a work in progress? Or to make our own choice, rooted in what we believe is best for us, for our family? Surely the latter.
When we strip away the expectations to be perfect, to be beautiful, to be desired, what remains? 
What remains is our truth. Our story. 
And what remains is a community of women who listen and who, within our stories, hear courage and resilience and strength. 

39 comments:

  1. This site has been my true healing, my sanity, my being able to have good days, my warmth and my positive attitudes throughout this healing process. I wish I could meet and give everyone a hug that has made me smile. Thank you for all your words of wisdom, kindNess and advice they have been a true blessing for me. I am doing well, more good days then bad. I have hope for my marriage and beleiving my husband will not do this to me again. I have and am working on my issues as he is everyday. We are working hard. Looking forward to the day where we don't necessarily have to work so hard and it all just comes natural without the obssesive thoughts and mind triggers that still occasionally come. Is it possible to be able to just be 100% good and move forward without any fear whatsoever? Looking forward to just go abouts my day and stop thinking to much. I'm stuck in fear of what if's...these what if's are the only issues I'm having at this point. They are so frustrating!!!! Hope everyone has had a good Monday. I have 2 weeks Xmas vacation coming up, CAN'T WAIT. Been a hell of a 4 1/2 months since DDay with no time off...
    Xoxoxoxo

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    1. Trulyheartbroken,

      I also felt stuck in fear of the what if’s… and it also was really holding me back. I read on here somewhere about living in the moment and that has really helped me. today, tomorrow next week no I don’t think my husband would cheat on me, looking far into the future I have no idea there are no guarantees in life. I try to focus on the here and now and I’m happy in the present. I also set healthy boundaries for myself, I have a plan B if he ever looks at porn or prostitutes again and he knows my plan B. I had a long talk with my h that I needed to feel safe to let go of this fear I needed to have my own back . I set up a savings and checking account in my name with h as beneficiary. We have changed all of our investments adding my name if they only had his, we changed his life insurance policy to make me owner so he could never change the beneficiary on them if we ever divorced. for me knowing I could kick him out and be able to be financially ok without him has taken a lot of that fear away for me.

      What are you afraid of? Figuring that out really helped me let go of that fear and I started living without fear. xoxo

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    2. Trulyheartbroken, I so get the what if's. They kept me stuck for so many months. I started doing worse case scenarios with the what if's and I have been able to move on with my life. It really helps if you sit with your fear and think out the worse and best possible outcomes. For me, it was what if he leaves? What if I can't survive without him? Well, I can and will survive anything that has to do with him and coming to that realization on your own is very empowering. D-Day 2 was on 12/1/16 so I'm a little over a year out and letting go of the what if's happened around July of this year. It really changed everything for me. I don't think any of us live without fear. It's there for a reason, but we can control it. None of us know what the future will bring but how we respond to it is up to us. I can't imagine anything worse than the shitstorm he created with his actions and I survived that. How I choose to spend the rest of my life is up to me. Sending so many comforting hugs your way

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  2. Great post Elle! One thing my husband and I have both taken on and say often is "listen more, speak less". We have even talked with our kids about this. There is nothing really that special or unique about this but I would say it is the one more transformative thing we have taken up. It really has been life changing for both of us in different ways. In today's society even away from betrayal everyone is quick to respond, so much is done online, everyone is so busy.... But for us I feel if we want our recovery to be positive and last if possible then this is critical to live by "listen more, talk less".

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  3. I just want to thank all you wonderful women for helping me out last week, I posted how I still feel shame for giving my husband a 2nd chance. So many of you reached out to me and pulled me up just by saying “me too” that meant the world to me. I just attended my sons drug center having group therapy family weekend. After spending 16 hours in group intense therapy I was emotional and physically drained.

    I’m in a better place today looking in the mirror and seeing a very strong women looking back at me! And I’m going to keep reminding myself it isn’t weak for staying and fighting for your family. Elle thank you once again for this wonderful healing site, there is so much love here.

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    1. Hiking Girl, What I've come to recognize through all this is that I have no idea of the strength that other people have shown in their lives because, like mine, it might be invisible. But that makes it no less real. In fact, I would argue it can be even harder to live in your own truth when our society pushes us the other way, and harder to be strong when we're not being applauded for it.

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    2. Elle, so true!

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    3. Hiking Girl, since DD2 12/1/16, I've given my husband 12,852 chances. okay...not that many, but at least a dozen and you are so not alone in that shame. But fuck shame. I do what I want and that's what I wanted to do. Chances have run out now and he is on his last one so fingers crossed he is serious this time. I think he may be. Either way I'm glad of my choices and have no regrets. Love to you

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  4. Elle, you are always spot on. You are such a blessing. I'm learning to fight the mind messages that keep me feeling much shame, even in private. So hard to fight myself because I've nobody else to talk with at this point other than you wonderful hurting women. It really sucks. My husband tells me I've nothing to feel shamed about because he feels enough for both of us. Wishing we all were not here is fruitless and keeps us from moving forward. I am moving forward and feel so much stronger even when my heart aches. I'm beginning to believe my husband when he says he will never, ever hurt me again. I really am and that feels good.

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  5. I’m known for being a good listener. I lost that ability in the early months. I’m glad it’s coming back to me! I’m sure it’s because of you and our community! Love will see us through this! Sending love to you all!

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  6. This is so so so beautifully true. Thank you. (Trying to listen) :)
    Blindsided

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  7. Beach girl, what a wonderful feeling that must be...believing your husband. I know how hard you worked to get to that point. Not believing is so hard on your heart, hurts like hell. This is my struggle today...it makes me sick to my stomach how hard I have to work to believe a man I truly love with all my heart. I'm still very early from discovery so I know I have a lot of hard work and hard days ahead of me but hearing your words give me hope. Thank you. I too want to believe my husband but right now I just can't even though he gives me no reasons and shows no reasons why I shouldn't. Again, I am smiling for you as I'm sure when you wrote the words " I'm beginning to believe my husband when he says he will never, ever hurt me again" you were smiling also and what a well deserved smile for you. Huge hugs!!
    Xoxo xoxo

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    1. Trulyheartbroken, It is such a hard feeling where you are now. I remember wanting it to just be over, erasing all those feelings from my brain was what I wanted. Unfortunately that does not happen. I remember having many discussions with my husband about this topic. It was a consistent conversation. I felt like I could not trust him to do anything then how could I be with someone like that then how can I live my life this way??? I would have these streams of thoughts. I remember my husband saying to me that it was good and right for me not to trust him. And that after what he did it would take a lot of time to even consider rebuilding trust much less trusting him. And he even said maybe I would never fully trust him but his goal was for me to eventually get to a good spot where I did not feel stress and anxiety related to him. He asked me to just start to open up and even consider trusting him and what that would look like. In the end he was very supportive and said he had to earn it back and he realized it could take a long time. For us it is a matter of his actions matching his words. With time that has helped us to move more and more towards me trusting him. And as we approach the 3 year anniversary of dday I do feel like I can trust him a lot more (maybe never 100%) and more important I can trust myself/my gut. We have come so far and I feel like we have had such open conversations. All of this aligned with my therapists and his professional advice. I would say communication and actions over time make this possible. It is hard but hang in there.

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    2. Trulybrokenhearted,
      I really believe it takes time to reach that point where you can believe them. Time and consistent behavior. I find that the further we get from D-day (past 2 1/2 yesrs now) and the more my husband is consistent in our recovery, the easier it is. And I have had moments in those 2 1/2 years where I have freaked out or questioned because the simplest fear would set me off, but his actions have been steady and he’s been transparent. After awhile, I felt comfortable enough to let my guard down a little. Infidelity is so incredibly traumatic that I think time (and for me, therapy) played a huge role.
      Hugs! ❤️

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  8. Thank you, Elle, so well said. I have not found another site that does as well in supporting its members unconditionally, no matter what choices are being made and in encouraging everyone to take care of themselves, to value themselves while standing strong. I've read recently about compassionate assertiveness - we can be aware of where the other person is coming from, of the issues they have that they may or may not be able to address, we can hope for them but we also need to get clarity and boundaries for ourselves. I've had some fantastic feedback from the people here on helping me to take a stand for myself and I hope that I've helped a few by sharing my experiences, by listening and letting people know they have been heard. I'm asking people to send good thoughts my way as I face once more into the revelation that my husband is still having inappropriate friendships (not as far as affairs but dangerous)four years after d-day, that he has lied to my face years on,including this year, told me that I could believe in him in 2015 while lying in the same document, saying that he would share everything. He has lied about porn, about losing 5000 euros that I reluctantly gave him for a share investment, hidden that he spent money on porn years ago, lied during the affair and in the affair fog and lied and hid again this year about inappropriate friendships and only this year revealed he'd kissed an old girlfriend in 2013. We are in counselling and not sharing a bed but I just don't see how I can believe in him after this, even though he is finally starting to see how he operates. We are facing into Christmas with four kids and I feel I have compromised and tried to understand and wasted so much of my time trying to appeal to him. Even if he starts to change it is so slowly and after so much blindsiding. I wonder what the next year will hold, do I break up the family? I've set boundaries and will have to walk away if he lies any more but there have been gaps so I might commit myself and find out years into the future that more has happened (he deletes and hides so well.) I cannot trust my intuition any more as I still feel there is more but he says no - this time. He has given me a transparency document. If I was by myself it would just be easier to go, it's like being in that hall of mirrors.Do I give him one final chance? How can I bring myself to do that after all the lies?

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    1. FOH,
      You have been an incredible gift to this site. Thank-you for all you've offered. And I wish I could give you a definitive answer to your questions but I think they are questions that only you can answer. I'm curious why you're in therapy together when it sounds as though his rather curious relationship to the truth is HIS problem, not yours and not a "marital" problem. I would be inclined to insist that he seek therapy on his own to get to bottom of why he can't tell the truth, even when lying has caused him so much misery.
      And I wonder, given your comment that you can't trust your intuition, if you're experiencing a sort of post-infidelity trauma -- an inability to feel safe, an inability to trust yourself and your experience. Might not be a bad idea for your to seek counselling on your own too and work through some of your own healing and, perhaps, map out something a rough plan going forward.
      You are doing so much, FOH. Life shouldn't be this exhausting. But I wonder if a big part of that is because so much of your focus is still on him when it should be on you. Let him manage his own recovery. You'll either see change in him...or you won't. That's how you'll know he's doing the work, or not. In the meantime, let him earn back your trust with regards to all things -- intimacy, money, whatever.
      Don't compromise so much. And don't beat yourself for the time you've already spent. Take this time to figure out who YOU want to be going forward and then look ahead. Will you give him time to earn a place beside you? That's up to you.
      Enjoy your children over the holidays. Focus on the pleasure of having them around. They are worth the pain this man has caused you.

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    2. We are having a review at the counselling tomorrow. She knew I wondered about individual versus couples and she has done most of the work on my husband and says it will be a long road for him so I think she will sugguest individual counselling as well. Re intutition, I do know that what was offered in the last four years was not enough and while he is working now at last, it not enough yet. My inutition does tell me that. I can't tell if there are more things he has not revealed, even though there was a transparency document. It feels like there is more but that may just be an effect of endless deception. You're right about me focussing on myself and that is what I have been doing up to now but I guess I'm having a wobble today. I also think that the sleeping on the couch boundary is not enough for me. I love the affection hugs etc but it makes me feel that he does not realise how close to the end this is if things don't change. I am so cross and impatient at this waste of life.

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  9. Okay so Elle I'm totally listening to you and I absolutely with all my heart want to share your beautiful spirit and love.... but I cannot fathom now how a man, who is with such a beautiful soul as yours could do this to you. Remember im a rage-o-holic these days... and if i was you gf outside of cyber space i would be tempted to throw him in a deep deep pit...where i live obviously. I hope he shows you how wonderful you are ever day. I hope he is better to you then ypu can even imagine. Keep on being beautiful and continue to pursuayed me to leave the dark side... I soooooooo need it.
    Blindsided

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    1. Blindsided,
      Where were you ten years ago when I would have happily watched you throw him in a pit??
      Here's the thing, Blindsided. I no longer see his cheating as something he did "to" me. I was affected, of course. But it's something he did to himself. It was harm he did to himself. Now, of course, I was harmed too. But I see myself as collateral damage -- sort of caught in the midst of his explosion and hit by shrapnel.
      And coming to understand that -- to really understand that he was acting out of a deep pain and shame and confusion that had NOTHING to do with me -- has allowed me to forgive him. Watching how hard he has worked to wrestle that pain and shame and confusion is what has allowed me to forgive him.
      He doesn't show me how wonderful I am every day, but frankly neither do I show him. We have our days when each of us is exasperated by the other. But we always come back to the realization that life is better together. He makes me laugh. He has my back. He wants the best for me and I for him. We are stronger for what we've weathered and we take pride in what we've rebuilt out of the rubble.
      But it takes time to get here, Blindsided. A lot of time and lot of deep breathing and a lot of running to exorcise the fury. A lot of therapy. A lot of late-night conversations. And, for both of us, a LOT of listening. Really listening to each other.

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    2. Blindsided, I also want to jump into this conversation because I would have gladly egged you on as you threw my husband into that molten lava and cheered as his body erupted into flames but over the past year (my disclosure day was in June 2015) I've really looked at him and watched him and listened to him and come to slowly internalize all that Elle shared with you. The pain and dysfunction and cheating and porn and drinking was his way of medicating himself. He never told me the truth about his life growing up. I had no idea he felt the way he did about himself. The things he shared are heartbreaking. If you don't know about the Adverse Childhood Experiences test, look for it online and see where you and your husband fall. I have a lot of ACE's and so does he. I just dealt with mine in a different way and I was blessed to have a strong, loving mother while his was a narcissistic, selfish woman with her own adverse childhood experiences. My husband experienced all the things Elle shared. I was collateral damage. I still feel awful sometimes but we are weathering this together. He will do anything I want him to do including getting rid of his smart phone if I ask. I'm learning that although I feel shame for his behavior it really isn't my shame, it is what I tell myself about staying with him that causes me to feel shame and I've got to work on that self-message. If you are on Faceb**k look up the "Peaceful Mind Peaceful Life" page. There are many gems there that help me daily. I'm practicing "listen more, talk less". My results are positive. Hugs to you. It takes time. Give yourself time.

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    3. I can relate to what you say Elle about this being something my husband did to himself vs to me. I agree completely I am collateral damage. I started to see glimpses of this around the 1 year anniversary of dday. I think I was finally in a better place in dealing with the discovery and pain. For that first year my husband was so focused on me getting better. I really had no understanding how much pain he caused himself. I thought if he made these choices he must be fine with his actions. I was so wrong. Over time as I listened more I saw a very damaged person. I have forgiven him and I have told him that what makes me the most sad is what he did to himself. That he betrayed himself. At this point as we approach three years from dday I see he is affected by his actions more than me. Of course it was horrible to me but as I moved away from dday I saw and he confirmed none of it was me. He made these horrible choices and he hated himself for so long. I think it was about 1 1/2 years from dday that he said he was finally starting to consider liking himself again and finally able to look himself in the mirror. He lived his life that way for at least 10 years during the affairs. He acknowledges it go worse over time since he hated himself more and more. He ended both affairs 15 months before dday so he knew it was bad but keeping that secret from me was like a wedge still or a black cloud over him.

      Just yesterday we had a discussion about a potential out of town trip. We have very open discussions about everything. We both acknowledge due to his actions nothing is simple, straight forward or easy. We are both still affected by what he did. He asked me how I felt about the potential plans. I was honest but what I did was a listened. And I heard who he is. If I would have gone on about everything I was thinking I am not sure I would have heard what he was had to say. I try to remember this every day and when he tells me he puts his head on his pillow each night and feels good about himself that makes me so happy.

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  10. 10 years ago I was falling in love with the only man I've ever been with and the one that would hurt me more then I ever imagine anyone hurting anyone.

    This is what I needed tonight tho. You all gave me a crystal clear image of where my life CAN be if he commits to recovery. It's not me... hey guys I believe you now!!! It's not me. I'm worthy of love, I am not less then the OW or anyone for that matter. I'm collateral damage... what a great image u painted. It's him. He needs help. He is broken. Maybe I'll put this bitterness on the shelf for a bit and see where that takes me. He could use a break from my thrashing words I'm sure. :(
    Xoxoxoxo lots of really wonderful thoughts of HOPE running through me... and I thought I'd never feel that again. Amazing.
    Blindsided

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    1. Blindsided
      I’m so glad you realized he is the one that is broken. Took me a long time to get to that point! My h heard a few tongue lashing too! From me shouting what a whore she was to what a disgusting piece of shit he was. I’m not proud of those meltdowns but I’m beginning to realize that they helped me get through my hurt/anger disappointment anxiety depression and all the other emotions that flooded through me! Sending hugs!

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    2. Blindsided, every single day is a new day and a new opportunity to live a full and peaceful and authentic life. Trust me when I say that you will continue to have hard moments, hard and intrusive thoughts and shaky moments as we all do. When I trigger badly it feels like some deep dark sleeping "other me" takes over and I act like a raving maniac, just as if it happened all over again. Those times are now few and far between and they last a much shorter time than before. As time passes by, and with individual therapy, couples therapy, lots of walking my feet off, yoga and several classes on Mindfulness, I'm much calmer in my brain and body. I "feel" when I'm beginning to flood emotionally and work very hard to look at the situation that caused it and talk myself through it. I am fortunate that since my husband disclosed to me he thought he had AIDS from paying for sex, he has worked very hard to look at himself and get to the bottom of his screwed up views. He has not given me a single reason to doubt his sincerity. He continually apologizes and tells me he loves me and that he will never hurt me again. We are in our late 60's and married a long time. We do not have to deal with raising kids or elderly parents. We just have to deal with each other. We have no distractions. That is a blessing and a curse. You CAN be the best YOU, you want to be. You need to put yourself and your happiness first. He is broken. He has to accept that and seek help because he WANTS that for himself and not because you want that for him. That is what really helped my husband. He wanted to live an authentic life and he was willing to look at and admit all the ugliness of his childhood. He cried when he shared that with me. He talked about shame and feeling worthless. He is still fragile and when he feels suicidal because I get emotionally triggered I am able to calmly say, "You might want to get some help to deal with those feelings and reactions because I cannot help you. I can only help myself and if you want to be there for me you have to take care of yourself, whatever that means." It is hard but it is worth it. He never was the man I thought I married but he is now becoming the man I thought I married and that, my dear friend, is so worth my time and love. Hugs to you.

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    3. Blindsided, if you list the excuses or justifications of why your H, had an affair. He felt this or not - your name is not on his list. This was very tough to wrap my head around, it is not my fault. It took my H 3 years to say to me, I was a total asshole. I was so self-centered and selfish. He did not say anything about me and how I caused him to feel anyway at all. I put my really bitterness on a shelf. I was afraid my bitterness would change who I was. So put it on a shelf for an hour, for a minute. It helps. It seems like all those "how could he do this emotions" are still there but I have learned and practiced like hell everyday, every minute not to be that bitter, angry person. When it started to affect my health after 2.5 years, I said enough is enough. I decided, I had enough but it takes a long time to get to that point. It is ok there are no deadlines, no phone that has to be answered etc... You will get there, you want to get there I can tell. My therapist ask me, what do want. I said I just wanted some damn peace. You will wade through a bunch of shit but you will get there. You are stronger than what you realize. A big bear hug to you.

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    4. My bitterness has changed me. Ive let people walk all over me many a time. I took pride in my ability to brush off how someone treats me as their issues and to keep on smiling cua life is good. Hahahahahah. Joke. I'm a joke. Theresa i dont tbeleieve there is a eoman on here as foul mouthed as i have been. Pre D day i cant remember the last time i swore. Your words are very known to me and my prick husband.

      Beach girl you were so right right right. My demons came back. Tonight. Why? All this Christmas hoop la. I bought my own gifts last year so my kids would see me open something from him. I bought and wrapped them. Put a tag on it that said to mommy love daddy. He did nothing for me or any of our kids. No big deal I never cared for presents much.. this is how it worked in my own family growing up. It was normal. But guess who He did buy for, wrap for and give to? It was their first time having sex last year. It was planned and deliberate. I don't even care all that much... He did it to have an excuse to have her come up to his apartment so he could try to have sex w her... But man. Thinking of going out and buying a gift.. Even for my kids.. I've done nothing. Nothing. As it stands... no one is getting anything. :o I don't even know what to do about this. I'm stuck.
      LLP for three months my hubby told me he had an affair because we didn't have anything in common. That i didnt work out or care about my fitness therefor he was unhappy because he did. That leaving avacDo marks on the cheese by using the same knife to cut both was disgusting and so was I. I laugh at this now... cus seriously??? How pathetic. What is disgUSTING is unprotected sex with a whore. Self pleasing ourselves with porn while neglecting your wife. STDs are pretty f%$#ing disgusting. But guess what this hold it together no matter what mother if three did? I loved him through this affair fog. My bitterness started shortly after he was hit with the cold hard truth. He slept with a known whore and treated her like his wife while his newborn boy and two other babies where a mere 3 hrs away being taken care of by his loving and loyal wife. His "I suck" moments were big. And when they started to happen I was like FINALLY!! Now we can heal right?? Nope. Im bitter. Resentful. Sad. Now I give him directions to the nearest bridge and buy him cigarettes while he is trying to quit (habit he started with her lol) I'm not a good person. I worry I will push him to far. I want peace now. First time came this week and I slept without sleep aids for 6 hrs straight since discovery. Sadest part of all this is not me however. Im more sad about our kids. How they treat him now... they use to crawl all over him beging him not to go back to his out of town job (and his whore). Now when he leaves they tell him "it doesnt really matter if you are here or not" 4 years old says this!! Ive not said a word and always tired to keep my lash outs for after hours but they know. My two year old tells him to "go away" and " i like mommy better" what have we done. Our family is ruined.my poor babies. I hate big and strong and it's scary. It's very very scary. I do not want to be the person that I am becoming without the peace.
      Blindsided

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    5. Blindsided
      I don’t like the person that my h made me become either. I’m better than that. My h holds resentment that I have words for the feelings that I have, he has feelings too but doesn’t have words to express them. He’s on a three weeks reprieve from traveling but he will choose to travel again for work because we have to have income and insurance and I should respect that right...well yes and no. I respect that he knows how to provide the basic necessities for us but I don’t respect his choices for how to make it happen. I call it running away from me and us hoping that time will put our relationship back together. I’m a firm believer that you have to work together to build your relationship back and that can’t be done living on opposite sides of the country. Sending you hugs. It’s a long road!

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    6. Blindsided my sympathies ... truly ... that you are in this spot. We didn't ask for this. We didn't sign up for this. And there is certainly NO manual on how to maneuver through this.

      I too found the bitterness started after he decided he wanted to stay. It was like the adrenaline from fighting so hard for the marriage kept it at bay and when that started to lessen the bitterness came out.

      I have nothing on how to avoid it ... but wanted to tell you that as a mama of 3 littles under 4 (and having to hold your stuff together through all of this) ... you are one strong STRONG mama! Remember that!

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    7. Blindsided, I am so sorry. It is so hard going through this individually but the pressure with kids makes it so much harder. There is that balance of thinking about yourself and then taking them into account. My kids were a little bit older but they were around all the time. My kids noticed the change in my husband after dday without either of us saying anything. We only had discussions when they were gone or if we left the house.

      All I can say is what worked for me. I focused on my kids and saw the positive in them and honestly for the first two years after dday those were my only times of feeling true happiness. We did so much together. We would play games, read, hang out, go for a walk. I just decided I would immerse myself in them since they know nothing and no better but to see the good. I looked at it as a good opportunity to increase my time with them. And I too always bought all the gifts. I did whatever I could to make theirs special. When they asked why daddy did not get a gift or a card then I would just say we were going to do something together to help answer their questions. It is so hard to feel this way. One other mindset that helped me was I decided at a certain point neither my husband or the ow were going to take anything more away from me. They already took too much. I was going to live my best life. And my husband did notice. He would and still comments how I am with the kids. It was something that stood out to him the joy I found with them in the day to day and on the holidays.

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    8. My kids are it for me. They are the only reason I'm still standing. They forced me to get out of bed. I had a baby to nurse diapers to change. I had a preschooler who is 4 going on 18 and desperately needs to learn everything and anything you can think of to tell her about her world. I had meals to cook and nap time to rock. I had clean up and baths and puke, snotty noses and lots and lots of make it all better kisses to give. I wanted to die at first. 6 months ago thats all i wished for. I thought my heart was literly breaking. Do you all remember that feeling? How did it feel for you? It was the most awful most painful thing I've ever endured. I was so so blindsided. We were stressed with the new baby and demands of three but it was all temporary and was the plan. We got his transfer and it was all coming together like we had planned for years. I was fat but it was temporary I had lost my baby weight before a year in both my other pregnancies I just needed time. I got no sleep. I renovated during nap time and stayed up late to paint. I nursed through the night and soothed my other two through 3 flus strep throat and two ear infections. All while being alone 50 percent of the time. It was the winter from hell. All temporary. I couldn't even take a shower without guilt of spending to much time on myself. Near the end of it he yelled orders while he sat on his phone or ran to the garage. I was emotionally abused. I had the fridge door slammed on me because i chose to eat a bowl of rice instead of a salad. Then i was told i was disgusting and who would want me. My baby was 4 months old. This was my breakung point. Never had he spoken to me or anyone for that matter with such harshness. Even he immediately apologized for it. But it was too late. I knew he was changing into an unhappy bitter awful person and dispite every effort i made i could not give him what he wanted to make him happy. And I gave home everything I had there was nothing left to try. Thats when my friend google told me what signs of a cheater were... crazy i searched that. I still didnt even undwrstand what was happening. But he had evry sign the website listed. Every single one. I was shocked. Then it was two weeks of screaming. He didnt admit till 3 days after he moved. Then the trickle truthing and he remained in contact with her until finally he told me how deep it was. Then it was over.

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    9. Cont...

      There was nothing stopping him from involving himself completely with her. Her kids, her house her business. I wasn't there and I was so so busy at home. He was her boyfriend. A temporary boyfriend with a planned no drama ending after he moved. This was all okay and not going to hurt anyone as long as it was their little secret. Cus you know... He had to stay with his nasty wife because we have young kids and all... "biggest mistake of my life was leaving my job here" he told her. Wow. "I would do anything for you and your little family"..what about HIS family???? Guys. I don't know. I don't know. This is nuts.

      My kids were what kept me planted. They are my angels. I needed all three to keep me going. They all challenged me in different ways to keep my focus on the right now. And yes.... my only joy comes from them... with the occational happiness from my husband when he shows remorse... true remorse. Not the "I said sorry a million times" I get sometimes. He said it is hard for him to stay positive when I'm not acting like I care. (I do get quite and tired at times *shocker*.. my drugs do that after I take them) I said it's really hard to be caring and affectionate when your husband goes off and f&^%s another woman for 5 months.

      My victim card is being played. I can't believe my life. What a nightmare. I wish it was a one night stand. I wish it was smaller. I wish I would have gone up there. I wish I would have moved up there. If she is pregnant with his child she will be due next month... I can't check her Facebook anymore I go nuts. I'm at a wait and see what happens. Trying NOT to think about it. And now writing and thinking about it. I'm so sad. I feel so pathetic. But i know im not. They are. The two of them are really really messed up and pathetic and I'm dealing with a shit load of yuck dumped on me for a long long time. But im not alone anymore. Im not livimg in a closet with my emotions and my prick husband and the judgement of fake friends and the anger of my extended family. I have a venue to vent and read and be encouraged. Thank you thank you thank you.

      Blindsided.

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  11. This post has really made me think, and pause. I’m guilty at giving advice and finding a solution instead of just listening. I really need to practise this if I am to go into psychology lol. I always think friends and family who confide in me do so because they want my advice hence why I tend to give it but your so right Elle sometimes all they want is to vent and someone to listen so I will bear that in mind from now on..

    Thank you ladies xxx

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  12. This site has been the most helpful as I wind my way through recovery from his infidelity. Many women are married to SA or drug addicts. Mine is just a dick who can gaslight and groom without even thinking about it. I thought I was losing my mind until I started writing things down, to counter the lies. I would scream my wishes for her horrible death and be told those are my demons. Here, I found it was normal. I was told my demons were causing me to use foul language. And here, I learned that is pretty normal too. I realized those are his demons he brought into our home.

    I learned we are all brave, strong women, even at our weakest and most vulnerable moments. I learned recovery doesn't happen overnight and that there will be good and bad days, that there will be triggers that make us crazy. One trigger for me that sounds so stupid, but it is so real. I started watching It's A Wonderful Life and when Violet started her flirting, I found myself starting to panic and had to turn the channel. His whore was a blonde.

    He has started to help me when I'm stressed. She is a Target shopper and I'm a Walmart girl. We needed to go to Target last Saturday. My first time since Dday. They ran out of what we needed, I got panicky and he got me out fast. Then we enjoyed the rest of the day. It was nice being supported and not being called a fucking lunatic who needs to get off the meds.

    I wish we didn't need this site, but am so thankful it and all these women are here, helping and encouraging each other. Thank you Elle for this.

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    1. Beagle Mom, I’m happy that you are taking the time to talk and show him that you need help in your recovery. The gaslighting and treatment prior and just after Dday is bad, but the discovery is even worse. I’m glad all of us have a common “go-to” place for comfort and understanding. Hugs to you!

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  13. Hi ladies,
    Not really sure where to post this, so just adding here. Just wondered if you all are like me, and I am sure you are, but when you are out in public - at the store, driving down the road, at a sporting event with your kids and family - wherever...do you look around and wonder who else has felt what you are feeling after betrayal? Do you wonder did that married couple deal with infidelity and make it? Are they faking it? Or even what is their story? I find myself constantly wondering who in the crowded room with me has felt the pain I have felt and made it to the other side. Or who has not made it and divorced or struggled or had a tough time? And I am also very aware that we really never know someones real story. Who is struggling with aging parents? Who just had a cancer diagnosis? Who has struggles with money or their kids or their job? We never really know what others are carrying around. Makes you feel less alone sometimes and other times I feel more alone.

    This time of year is full of triggers for me based on our story 2 years ago (a not fully recognized dday) and while some parts are easier than last year, I find I have more anger. Not like I am angry...but there is an undercurrent of anger that I am feeling. Angry this is my story. Angry at my own choices then and now. Angry as my husband and his choices and doing this to us....to me. I am not walking around in a rage, but I feel that I am probably getting to a point where I will need to share some of this anger with my husband, not with confrontation, but to share it.

    Doesn't help I fighting a past demon today. My husband has an off-site meeting with his whole "team" that includes the former OW. When my husband reminded me of it today I instantly asked his plan and he said he had always planned to drive over alone because he didn't want either of us to have anything to worry about. I find I am pretty angry with him because he is never proactive of talking, as most of our husbands...and I just wish that while he was open and shared about me as soon as this event came up...he wasn't proactive saying that was his plan. My demon, though, is stopping myself from driving down to his building to see if his truck is gone and where is her car and stuff but in the end I realize a few things. (1) that is now who I want to be anymore. I have done my fair share of spying and snooping but I don't want to be that person anymore. Yes, I am aware of things now, but I don't want to sink to low levels anymore. It makes me feel awful about myself. and (2) the reality is 5 of them are going over. I know his car, the OW car and on other car - but not the 2 remaining people. So his care could be gone, but it would not tell me if anyone rode with him. And in the end - it doesn't matter. He will make his own choices and he has to live with those choices and own those choices. I need to let them go because they are not mine.

    There is still so much fear...less than a year ago or even a month ago...but the fear is hard. The fear of their still working together, but also the fear that even if they didn't there are no guarantees in this life. Just trying to focus on the here and now...that's all I can do. And focus on ME! (Hugs)

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    1. Jules, I do not have the situation with work. I too was checking things often especially find my iphone when he was not at home. I got to the point too where it was dragging me down. And at a certain point I told myself that if he wants to find a way he will. Based on how he is acting right now he would be a sociopath if he was doing anything else and talking to me and treating me the way he is currently. He is so different in a good way.But i am with you that fear is real.

      I so agree with the beginning of your post. I think that all the time. And even before dday I felt this way. Based on what my husband does he told me and tells me it is so common especially for men to not love, like or be interested in their wives. Some emotionally only but some emotionally and sexually. Some act on this and others just ignore it and morally won't do anything but live an empty life. Many he said when the kids leave for college will leave. I do wonder when I am out and about if people have been hurt, are they the ow. I will say people who are acquaintance I find it easy to see who is an obvious ow. I too wonder what kind of trauma has led to divorce. Life is complicated and more than ever I try to be positive and live my best life.

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    2. Hmmm. I maybe married to a sociopath or pychopath I'm not clear on the difference. That was the first message the whore sent me... " let me just leave you with one thought. You would have to be a pychopath to fake the feelings and the emotions that were shared." He told me it was a game. Perhaps a narsasist? But I think he gave her his heart. I think he became obsessive with the affair. He is a perfectionest for many things (clearly not in his marriage!). He has this obession with Always looking to upgrage or improve and can begome fixated on situations unable to see a bigger picture. Perhaps he saw her as a better option and therefor had to pursue it. I know she is not now, that took some healing to get to.... even if she is the stereotypical blond beauty she is ugly. Her actions are ugly her relationahip with her kids is ugly. She is ugly. Argh. She got another thought.

      I don't know why i have the feeling that it is my job to figure all this out. Be his mother, cook, lover, financial planner, housekeeper, Nanny, friend and now therapist. I wish he would have a need to get help. I wish we had more help with the kids to be able to get out of the house in order to get help. I wish I wish I wish

      I love your posts Hopeful. Cus i know what i need to do, what i want to do and what i actually do are very different. Your posts give me the "what i need to do"... if I don't keep reminding myself of this the "what i WANT to Do" and the "what I actually do" become dangerously close. Trying to tame the tiger.
      Blindsided.

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    3. Blindsided. I am so glad it helps. I know for me this site is always so positive for me in many ways. I have pressured my husband a lot since he is in the mental health field as to why/how etc he could do it and also if he could be diagnosed with anything. From day to day I have thought different things. My therapist was very emphatic that my husband does not have any diagnosis except maybe narcissism. My therapist felt he was narcissistic in some ways and grew up entitled in all ways. My therapist felt like it was that simple and he never grew up. Again why does someone that feels that way want to get married. Who knows?? My husband is very good with his words etc and I can never rival him. He has always been good at spinning, smoothing things over and manipulating a situation. I think that is why he is so good at his job. My husband swears he used the ow and it was that simple. Who knows if that is really true. I pressed him for 9 months and had enough. I do not see how he could have two affairs for 10 years and have them mean nothing but they were very sporadic etc. In the end whatever he thought even at the time was not reality and that is where he stands. He does get it. My therapist finally said to me that he had changed and no one could fake it that long or he should go to Hollywood and become an actor.

      I too want it all figured out. That is how I have always lived my life, doing the right thing, taking care of things, making sure everything is in order. And yes I have said I am tired of being his therapist. My husband has acknowledged how it seems that way. On the flip side he has said that it means so much to him we have worked through this together and how he is the happiest he has ever been. I cannot remember where you are since dday but it took my husband a long time to start processing all of this. And without me pressing him he would not seek help and he is in this field. I just do not think it is in his nature. But I have been very firm with him he can say he will never do this again but part of that to me is being more open with his feelings. He is gradually getting better about bringing things up. The most effective thing is when he does talk I say nothing. The whole listen more talk less has been critical to him sharing. He has told me he always felt like as the man he should be responsible and take care of me and the family. He knew he let us down in a major way. Him failing in such an epic fashion made it even harder. He knows he has to prove himself and earn back trust and credibility.

      I urge you to find any way to have someone watch your kids. Or can you talk during the day if they are in school? The once a week time to talk was really helpful for both of us. And he was not crazy about it at first but as my therapist said too bad. He had all his freedom to do what he wanted and he ruined that. So now it is what I need. And I basically said let's try it and see if it helps me feel better. And we did not always talk about the affair. Sometimes it was about our schedule and commitments, communication. I have said it before but the article in The Atlantic Masters of Love is so good. My husband brought it home from work and that created a lot of conversation. He is not much for reading a book but the article was really good and approachable for him. The Gottmans are centered in research which he finds to be sound. Maybe look that up, read it and see what you think. If you like what the article says give it to him and say read this and let's discuss. Maybe getting away from purely affair details will help. It is hard to heal when you feel like you are taking on the burden for everything. I started to feel better when my husband did more to focus on me and what i needed. Just doing the dishes instead of watching a football game gives him so many gold stars.

      Sorry I went on for so long here...and yes focus on what you want to do. Take a step back. Write it out daily. You've got this!!!

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  14. Jules, I believe that many of us have felt the same feelings and experienced similar thoughts during our own process of moving through this unbelievably hard experience. When my weight was falling and my hair was falling out in the first six months I wondered why nobody could see how much pain I was in behind my smile. I moved on to wondering if anyone else I knew, especially those with rapid weight loss and other health issues had bodies responding to similar events. Now, I just "know" that everyone who goes through big trauma experiences something major in their body and brain. Fear sucks joy right out of our lives. For the longest time I felt fear and struggled to find joy but so many brave and strong souls here talked about fear and how they over came it or at least learned to manage it. The big question for me is to ask, "What I am fearful of right now? What is causing my body to feel so much fear?" Look at that in the "here and now" because as Elle often says, "If it isn't happening to you again right now remember that it is not a real threat or something like that". Our big feelings often get in the way of "being here now". The fact of the matter is that if your husband or mine decided to cheat again, we can't stop them. Nothing we ever did made them stop and think that perhaps they should make a different decision. Nothing. So set your boundaries and be prepared to enforce them. That kept me much saner and honestly Steam has some good posts on boundaries as do others who have shared their experiences here over the two plus years I've been here. When I start to get weird feelings that I recognize as irrational in the moment I remind myself that he and I both know the new rules post betrayal and I know I'm able to enforce them. He also believes I will and he is desperate to keep me and his family as close as possible. That is today. I have no guarantees for tomorrow. So today, I'm not feeling fear. Much love Jules. This is hard stuff.

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