Tuesday, January 14, 2020

The Devil is in the Details

A woman came recently to Betrayed Wives Club with a dilemma. She knew the broad strokes of her husband's cheating. It was the details that were making her crazy. She wanted to know every single thing. Where did they have dinner? What color was her dress? Did he text her before or after?
His answers changed. Not dramatically but enough to feed her conviction that there was more, plenty more, that she didn't know. So she kept asking. He kept answering. She challenged those answers. And round and round they went, her convinced he was being dishonest. Him convinced she would never move past this.
And then, on Twitter, which is where there's an active and vocal infidelity tribe, another woman asked me: How can I get him to talk to me when I'm triggered? She was relentless, she admitted. Insisting that he tell her everything, while he, growing more defensive, insisted he had.
Round and round they'd go. 
It's a dance I know well.
For me, it began long before I knew of the cheating. My husband and I had great communication, I believed. Until, of course, our communication wasn't great. Until we weren't communicating about where to have dinner and were, instead, communicating about why his family was so toxic and why did he insist on defending their behaviour?
He would get defensive. I would get more furious. He would shut me out. I would metaphorically bang on those walls.
He'd call me "hysterical" and "crazy". Which would make me hysterical and crazy.
And round and round we'd go.
I've got some bad news.
Sure, some guys have a radical transformation after being revealed as a cheating bastard and turn over a new leaf – listening to our pain, holding us close, and whispering promises – that they keep! – about how sorry they are and how they will never do this again. Others, however, most perhaps, take a bit longer to get there. And by "there" I mean better. They will probably never be masterful communicators. They will likely always struggle with shame and self-criticism and defensiveness. 
Count my husband among the latter.
So here's the bad news: You don't create an honest marriage in which each partner feels valued and valuable by bullying.
I know, I know. In those early days, I didn't give a shit if my husband felt bullied. He had hurt me! I was the injured party! "My heartbreak, my rules" right?
Well...yes. 
But.
But, at a certain point, we either need to accept that we simply cannot remain married to someone who refuses to be fully honest with us (or is incapable of honesty and uninterested in battling those demons) or we need to accept that we know everything we need to know.
Broad strokes.
He cheated.
He lied.
He broke his vows to us.
The color of her dress really, truly doesn't matter.
Now, I understand that sometimes those small lies are symptomatic of a much larger problem. They are evidence that this isn't a guy who just doesn't pay attention but rather a guy who lies as easily as he breathes.
In which case...he either heals himself or you show him the door.
But if, like my husband, he's spent a lifetime creating armour so that his own heart can't be hurt, if, like my husband, lies ARE his armour and he's willing to learn how to take it off, then it's a job we accept to give him the time to figure out how to do that.
Not easy, I know.
It means walking away at the moments when you figuratively have him by the lapels and have a mountain of evidence that shows he's lying. "It wasn't December 1, your honour, that the defendant ordered caesar salad with his homewrecking whore, it was December 2. The defendant is....Not. Telling. The. Truth."
It means recognizing when you've spiralled into crazy (which is hard because, well, you've spiralled into crazy). Which means, instead of having this discussion now, you go for a run. You call a friend. You watch The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel
It means coming up with a plan to tackle those questions that truly are important to you...but releasing those that don't matter. Perhaps that looks like a "disclosure" session with a therapist. Perhaps you need him to write a letter responding to your questions. Perhaps you set a timer so that he agrees to 10 minute increments with both of you agreeing to walk away for a breather when it gets too heated, or abusive, or counterproductive.
If you're going to rebuild your marriage and remain sane while doing so, you're going to need to assess what's happening right now – is he committed to doing the work necessary and are you? – and begin imagining your future together and what that looks like, which means you setting clear boundaries to keep yourself emotionally safe. 
Why does he lie? you ask: It's likely something he's been doing his whole life. To avoid conflict, to keep the peace, to make himself look better. He probably doesn't realize he's doing it half the time.

None of that makes it okay. But it does mean it's going to take some time to unlearn those old habits.
Assuming you're trying to rebuild a marriage with this person, you need to learn how to do this. Together. Without humiliating or shaming.
I understand the impulse to know. It's a way of trying to regain control of a situation that feels completely out of our control.
But here's how you truly regain control of the only thing you can control, which is you: You work on your own healing. You work on controlling your anger. You work on recognizing when you're no longer helping yourself but hurting yourself. You seek therapy. Or yoga. Or meditation. Or all of the above.
You need to learn how to trust yourself and, to a lesser extent, him.
In the meantime, he is fixing himself. 
I actually believe a lot of these guys when they say they don't remember. Maybe not for every single detail but for a lot of them. It's not uncommon for these guys to sort of compartmentalize – to lock away the affair to avoid the moral discomfort. Clearly, they were liars. So what are they doing to learn how to NOT be one.

31 comments:

  1. This is one of the things I struggle with the most, questions so many questions. My husband has cheated our entire marriage and lied about everything for the last 17 years. Every single OW knew he was married and all were women he worked with except 1. Never in all these years did we discuss divorce or separation and he always told me loving things, traveled, discussed our future, were there for one another with any medical issues, etc. I had NO idea and he was the last person I would have ever imagined would have lied or cheated. Everyone including his family has been in complete shock. So I have had countless questions and want to know every detail, everything. It has been a year since Dday and we are still together yet I am humiliated, sad and traumatized as to how i could have been so blindsided and why...I constantly want to move on and yet it's there every day. I want to stop asking, thinking and wishing my heart was full again but it's not happening. When do you stop thinking g about it, when do you even begin to have a real marriage. If I cant trust him ever, why do I stay? When do i stop wanting to know things...I am 56 years old and He is 62. I dont want the time I have left to have a mind that never stops remembering about all of this. I want to enjoy the time I have left enjoying life, not this. I didnt ask for any of this so when does it get better and / or would I be better alone, maybe working 2 jobs but not have to go thru life babysitting...just could use some advice and yes I am going to therapy but would like to hear from those that have a habitual cheater that still says they love you and would do anything to stay in our marriage and he does go to therapy as well.

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    1. Anonymous,
      You didn't say how recently you found this out but I suspect not too long ago.
      Like you, I discovered that my entire relationship with my husband had been full of lies. He had been cheating since day 1. So, yes, it's normal to need to almost reconstruct your life together. "Was he cheating when I was pregnant? Was he cheating when I went away with friends? Was he cheating when my mother was sick?" Etc. And, like you, I had a LOT of former cheating partners that I wanted to know about. And I think that's fair.
      What our therapist ultimately recommended was a "full disclosure" session, whereby my husband would, in the presence of our couples counsellor, answer every single question I asked, as honestly as he could. Every. Single. Thing.
      My husband resisted at first because, of course, his shame was excruciating. It was almost crippling for him. But...his problem, not mine.
      I had already asked a lot of question and got a lot of names and dates and descriptions. Still, I wanted that full disclosure.
      And then my husband agreed to it. And I got thinking...did I really need any more information than I already had? Did it make a difference? Already, I'd forgotten a lot of what he'd told me. So, I decided, no. I didn't want full disclosure. I imagained it would just traumatize me further. It was enough that he agreed to do it.
      So that's where I stand on this. I think you're absolutely entitled to know what you think you need to know. He owes you that.
      But...be careful what you ask. Because those details, some of them, get lodged in your brain and take on a life of their own. For instance, my husband told me that, one night when I was upstairs, he and his associate, who were downstairs "working" had sex in our laundry room. I already hated laundry. Can you imagine how hard it became to walk into that laundry room? I dreaded it. We ultimately moved the laundry room upstairs. Even now, thinking about it, I can remember how I came to loathe that room.
      So...be careful. And if you want to rebuild a life with him, then do so. If you want to leave, do so. Those memories will fade, faster with therapy and hard work. And faster if you can see your husband taking steps to become a better man. You've still got a long life ahead of you. Do what you need to do to heal and trust that those years can still hold plenty of joy.

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  2. All the extra details don't help. D day for me was almost 2 months ago. I wanted to know everything... every detail. I felt I was owed that. The more I found out, the worse I was. My partner had repressed a lot of it and had to do some adding up and soul searching to give me a time line. The affair had gone on for 6 months. Intermittent though. According to them both, only physical. It was sexts, and 4 sexual interactions. That's all. The final time was 1 month before I found out and he told her no more. We both have a history of depression and anxiety. We have experienced a loss, and then had a baby. He's just over 1 now. So this all happened, while I was going through PND and had a child to look after. Meanwhile, never admitting he also had severe anxiety and depression - just carried on. Thinking this was the answer. He loves me, and our son, and our unit - but because of pregnancy complications during and after, we hadn't had sex for 1.5 years. Sex for him leads to being emotional and having comfort and support. Like most men. It's not the act that hurt me, it's the lying. The help being offered for depression and anxiety and saying no, i'm ok. I can manage it with exercise etc. The person he cheated with, was friends with me too. Knew all about our troubles, emotional and sexual. Especially his. She pursued him. She instigated the interactions and said this is how we can have both. How we can keep our families but be happy and scratch that itch. He had no idea she knew any of this and also to some degree feels wronged too now. Crazy right. To me though - I understand how he got there. As much as it sucks. I get it. I might have done the same. I also, like many, thought I'd leave if it ever happened. That's so far from the truth. It didn't even cross my mind. I felt so bad for him, as hurt as I am, how low must he have been feeling that this was his only lifeline to choose? He's never cheated before this. On me or any other partners. He vows he never will again. We are engaged so who knows if/when we will actually get married. I still wear my ring. It felt wrong to take it off. He's not a bad person, he made a stupid mistake. We are both getting individual counselling (I have since mid last year), and couples counselling. Our counsellor says we're doing really well considering. So that's good. Doesn't make it not hard. That doesn't mean I don't want to run away - which I have been having thoughts of lately. From my life, not specifically my fiance or child. Just life in general. The last 3 years have been crazy. Loss of loved ones, loss of a pregnancy, loss of identity on both our sides, depression, anxiety, new baby and struggling with that. Back at work finally after 1 year off. I hated maternity leave. Work has helped a lot for me and my depression. Anxiety isn't anywhere near as bad as it was. I just want us to keep moving forward. To keep being positive. To keep talking. That's been great. Our sex life is way better too. But it comes in waves. I was a mess over an event we have to go to in a months time where the OW and her husband will be at. I'm not going. Alcohol fueled party... no thank you. Party where a few friends know and could say something wrong. No thank you. I don't even want to look at her. The thought of her makes me furious. She not only betrayed me as a friend, she wasn't a friend to him either. What kind of psycho thinks it's good to instigate an affair with a struggling new dad who is suffering from depression and anxiety? Not only that, but has a partner who is also going through it and is barely present herself? It makes my skin crawl. I know he had a choice, which he regrets, and doesn't understand how that could have ever been a good idea. How that ever made sense. I guess I'm glad I found this site. To see that people have made it through. Fingers crossed I can heal, and learn to trust again. Trust not only him but my own judgement. Thanks for reading.

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    1. Anonymous,
      I am so so sorry for all the pain and loss you've experienced, and your partner too. Devastating for both of you. Congratulations on your little boy. And kudos to you for getting treatment for your depression and anxiety.
      I can see how you see your husband as a victim too. This woman sounds predatory -- but likely has her own stuff she's acting out.
      I think your approach is smart -- choose the events in which you can trust you're emotionally safe.
      And if you've read much on this site, you likely know that, like you, I believe a marriage can grow and become deeper and more meaningful after infidelity. It does not have to be a death knell. Also, like you, the day I could imagine I might have coped the same way my husband did if I'd had his experiences, family history, etc., was the day that I could begin to really heal, because I was able to extend compassion to him and to myself. Doesn't mean he was "off the hook", just meant that I didn't think he was a monster. He was a good person who made bad choices.
      I have a feeling you're going to be just fine, Anonymous. You sound incredibly strong and level-headed. There's a ton of support on this site from women like you -- smart and fierce and kind. Welcome to the club. You're among friends who know exactly what you're going through.

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    2. Thanks for responding :) It has definitely been a hard few years. Very hard. Sometimes I don't realise how hard until I add everything up. Or a doctor/psychologist says - you've had a rough time. It's so nice of you to say that I'm strong and level headed because at times I really don't feel like I am. My anxiety is a struggle every day. However, I am definitely further into my journey of compassion and forgiveness that I expected I would be by now - and I have never once thought that my partner was a monster. The OW. Yes, but as you said she does have her own stuff too. That's definitely the truth. We aren't even sure her husband knows. Which is insane to me. Knowing is better than not knowing. Even when it hurts. I want us both to be our true selves. You can't do that with lies and hiding still. Anyway, onwards and upwards I guess and I appreciate all you write on here as it's so helpful for us all. Cheers.

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  3. This was really hard for me. I am someone who remembers everything and wants to know the details. I would say the first year after dday I kept pushing to know this or that. And my husband had two affairs over 10 years so there was a lot to ask about. I grew frustrated since a lot of answers were "I don't know, I cannot remember, I am not sure." 1. My husband did not remember a lot. He does not have the best memory about great things that have happened. He told me he tried even during the affairs to forget it immediately after he saw one of the ow. He hated himself and just wanted to forget it. 2. What he remembered during the affair, dday, one month, 6 months, 12 months out really shifted. It was all through the lens he saw himself and what he had done. He had ended both affairs so he was not in an affair fog on dday but I would say some self protection was going on since he minimized what he had done. Now he says he does not recognize who he was and what he remembered on dday is different than what he remembers today. 3. It took time but in the end I realized that the little details did not matter. None of it would help me feel better in any way. I had heard it on a podcast or read something by Esther Perel (I know not everyone loves her but..) and she suggested instead of focusing on where did they eat, when did they meet, exactly how many times ask how did you feel, what were you feeling before, during or after. Focus on questions that get to the heart of the affair vs a list of events. This shift in thinking really helped me. When we had our discussions it really made them more helpful for both of us. Basically instead of asking yes no questions like did you go on a trip with her it was more open ended questions that spurred discussion. And I followed my personal advice to talk less and listen more. It was like opening up Pandora's box with my husband. Once I started down this path it really shifted not only my recovery but his.

    It can still be hard and I am very honest about triggers or things that are hard for me which can center around the details. I try to focus on this other perspective since neither of us can prevent what he already did. By doing this we could focus on what we could do moving forward for him to not ever feel the way he did or for me to consider trusting him and feel safe in our marriage. This was all done with setting strict boundaries and expectations though and was not in any way minimizing what he did.

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    1. such a good point re. what questions you ask. Thank-you.

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  4. I struggle with the details as well. D-day for me was Sept 2019 so almost 5 month ago. This has been the hardest 5 months of my life. This blog has been so very helpful to me. Thank you Elle. My husband had a physical and emotional affair for nearly 4 years with his assistant. We have been together for 15 years and married for 11. We have two children under 6 . We come from a very religious background and were in our early 20's when we were married. Both of us didn't have much experience with relationships outside of each other. The affair started 2 years after my first child was born - our first child had a number of small medical issues, but as new parents were very stressful. My h claims that during that time I emotionally and physically disconnected for him, and he missed that connection and became vulnerable. He claims his assistant at work was very forthcoming about her attraction to him and pursued him which eventually started the affair. He claims about 2 years into his affair he wanted out but she would threaten to tell me which scared him into staying. I don't know what to believe it was a 4 year affair and It can't be taken lightly. Not to mention the OW was 10 year younger then him. He has lied to me so much and that is what kills me the most. I felt disconnected from him after we had our first child and especially after we had our second (he was cheating on me while I was pregnant) but I thought things were slowly getting better. I always thought we would find out way back to each other eventually- I never thought he would have an affair and a long term affair at that. He would invest time with her when he was at work but would be home with me and our kids at night. He booked hotels, massages, gave her gifts, and wrote her letters. He was investing in the OW when I would have desperately loved for him to invest in me and our family and that's what hurts the most. I haven't told anyone close to me about the details of his affair because I feel if I do they will tell me "Once a cheater always a cheater.." and to leave. I love him, our family and our life. Since D-Day we have been in therapy, being very open with each other both physically and emotionally. But what scares me is that over the last 4 years he wasn't mean, we were just disconnected and we did have good moments, but he was lying. I feel the last 4 years were all a lie. He claims he would compartmentalize well. That is scary how do you compartmentalize that well over a 4 years? So now when he tells me he loves me, and that he is sorry and, this is where he wants to be and will spend the rest of our lives making it up to me - I have such a hard time believing him. I don't trust him. I am angry. I am angry with myself for not noticing all of this sooner (I had a gut feeling which was true) and I am angry with him for being a liar and lying to me for so long. I feel so betrayed. For a while all I did was pain shop, checking emails, phone logs etc. All that did was cause me more pain. We have so many conversations where I start of calm, asking questions and it ends in an explosive fight because I become so angry hearing his answers. He shuts down. I'm working on my approach with him. I ask for details over and over again. When I hear them it hurts me over and over again. Experiences that I thought he only shared with me he shared with her and now it triggers me (ex: he got a couple massage with her, now I never want to do that with him again) I guess what bothers me more then anything is now I'm so unsure and uncertain of our future and that's what kills me. I used to think I loved him more then anything and we could get through anything and now I'm not so sure. He is trying - I have to give him, that but I'm just so angry and I have moments of compassion towards him and each week it gets better and better but its still so hard. I feel like I'm going crazy. This whole thing makes you feel so unlovable sometimes.

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    1. Oh Anonymous, I don't think there's a woman on this site who hasn't felt exactly like you. The deep deep sense of betrayal that someone could be with you parts of the day and with someone else other parts and then expect us to believe them when they say they love us.
      You are still pretty raw. Five months is really still the shock stage. And I'm glad you recognize how harmful the questions and pain shopping are for you.
      I know it's hard. And it's going to remain hard for a long time, though, as you've noticed, it gets incrementally less hard. There will be times when it feels as though you're right back where you started. There will be times when you'll realize you've come a long way. It's all part of the process.
      Give yourself time to heal. Be gentle with yourself. Remind yourself that you are not crazy, the situation is. And you are enough, have always been enough.
      You will get through this, Anonymous. And you will learn to trust yourself (SO many of us had that gut feeling that we ignored).
      I'm glad you found us. You are among an incredible group of women.

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    2. Anonymous I read your story and it sounds so similar to mine. Two boys and almost 18 years of marriage. D Day for me was March 8th 2019. I knew something was off but quite not what I expected. We were both young as well when we got married. My husband revealed to me after I discovered the affair that he was "checked out" almost two years prior. I NEGLECTED him emotionally. I "emascualted" him. I was controlling. I made him feel"less than a man". I thought I was being a hard working wife taking care of "EVERYTHING " didnt realize he built up resentment towards me said that I neglected him.That scared the " shits" out of me. "Who is this man"? And I must be "crazier" to want to save my marriage. Even crazier the relationship was only 4 months. I met the OW after he broke it off with her. She was in disbelief because they had so much plans to "runaway" together as they both was in lala land. "Feel good" life with no responsibility. Sex and good times only smh.By that time I already knew everything with him being "sloppy" and her being a "stalker". I was so Gracious when we met face to face after she tried to expose him
      I even told her to have a "good life" and "forgive my husband " yes I did. God prepared me for that moment. My husband left me emotional for months pretend to be someone who he wasnt. He started getting sick with anxiety and he just was a big mess. He was so convicted and torn. During that time I let him be. It felt like a slow death him still in the house with me yet trying to separate from me. He would take off ring, sleep in the other room and even went so far to start looking for apartments. My husband and met in church. I kept my faith and I allowed God to do his work. I had nothing in me I felt like I was just barely hanging on. How can you "throw away" 17 years for 4 months. I still cannot wrap my head around it even having the knowledge of "limerance". How can you be THAT weak and caught up in a fantasy. The reality is "IT HAPPENS IT HAPPENED" and it "SUCKS". DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF. Yes no relationship is perfect and I was one of those women who never thought or seen it coming "NOT MY HUSBAND" boy was I wrong. Gods Grace has kept me, good friends, receiving spiritual counsel and going to theraphy. Sometimes I feel like am doing much however I realize it's a PROCESS. Its OKAY to go through ALL kinds of feelings. Your children need you so does your love ones. Love hurt sometimes I never knew how deep this kind of hurt is however we have to Believe there is hope. I look at my husband sometimes through the eyes of mercy, other times I want to slap the shit out of him. I managed to keep it from my family to this day. Even that hurt however that was me being so protective and the fear of what would others think. I've gotten through so much yet sometimes I feel like I dont even know how God strength is incredible. How can you be so nieve. Real thoughts but we can decide what we choose. Take your time with your healing and I pray that he would take full responsibly and allow you go through what your feeling and not shift blame. You are stronger than you think ladies. We are not defined by our husbands. I believe in bigger PURPOSE for the trails. Stay strong and keep the faith.

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    3. Anonymous, Thank-you for sharing your story with us. You have incredible strength and faith. I hope your husband realizes how lucky is he and appreciates the gift you're giving him of a second chance.

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  5. Elle,
    I found out in November 2018 so a little over a year ago however first it was 1 woman, then 2 and then 3 and then after a few months the total was 10 physical and emotional affairs over our entire marriage. He engaged in a sexual act only a few weeks after our marriage. All this with lies and lies and also I was told all the horrible lies he told everyone about me and my family in which he admitted and said it was to make himself look better to others so he could justify what he was doing. 17 years this went on and all the while he was doting on me as his wonderful wife at home in which so many people told me over the years how lucky I was to be married to such a wonderful loving husband so imagine my shock when he was caught and as time went on more and more horrible details emerged about his double life. Why do I continue to want answers? Why cant I stop asking questions, stop looking at photos of these women, stop thinking about what I missed, just stop and try to work on our marriage in which he says he desperately wants and loves me forever or walk away? What am I doing to have these mind games continue? How or what do I do to make it stop, walk away?

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    1. Why? Because when you discover that so much of what you believed to be true was not true, it's natural to need to make sense of it. So many of us do exactly what you're doing -- try to go back and rewrite our history with this new information, slotting in characters and details and events that we lacked the information for the first time around. It's our way to making the ground beneath our feet feel solid again.
      However, at a certain point, those details don't add anything but more pain. I think it's reasonable to get the broad strokes of what was happening. The rest can turn into pain shopping -- and I think it's a bit like PTSD, where we become so afraid to turn away because we're terrified if we miss anything, it will happen all over again.
      I hope you're in therapy to help you deal with this. Infidelity changes everything, especially when it's long-term. It can change our sense that the world is a fundamentally safe place for us into the opposite. You need someone who can help you heal from this. I'm so glad you found this site, too. The women here are smart and can offer their own guidance and wisdom.

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  6. I got lots of lies and half truths. My first d-day was an unbelievable 7.5 years ago. Eventually though, the lack of truth telling and deflection about what happened on during the affair just echoed the dishonesty and deflection in our everyday life. I made him move out 2 years ago. We considered it a trial separation. I found a good therapist focused on infidelity who was trained with Dr. Omar Minwalla. So we are going to start the recovery process from scratch starting with a facilitated disclosure process. That is the only way I can put any effort into possible reconciliation. I am willing to start over because he has also learned the kind of humility that I never saw after d-day. Only after these 2 years could he could go into this process in good faith, allowing me the steps I needed, making me the decider of how reconciliation process. So the disclosure process is expensive but I think the only way we can move forward after the extremely messy 6 years post d-day. I meet with an individual therapist to discuss what I really need to know. She works with the couples therapist who then meets with him a few times to prepare a disclosure statement and answer my questions. The next step is to have 2 hour disclosure session with the couples therapist and a personal therapist for me. I know not everyone can do this, but just knowing that he is willing to do it, is much more healing than actually knowing the full details. Frankly, I am not asking for many details, it is mostly to have him recognize the damage that the half truths have caused and for him to acknowledge the full breadth of his acting out. I guess I want him to own the details, not me. And the particular couples therapist we have is holding his feet fast to the fire. I researched a couple of therapists who trained with Dr. Omar Minwalla and she was one of 2 that I spoke with. Both were extremely affirming and had an approach that was spot on in supporting exactly what partners need around truth and healing. I would highly recommend this podcast to understand truth-telling and disclosure http://www.helpingcouplesheal.com/

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    1. Wow MBS, thanks for all the info. That's really interesting and kudos to you for refusing to move on until you're damn well ready. Please keep us posted.

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  7. Elle,
    You’re wisdom and validation of what betrayed wife’s are feeling and going through is so kind and loving. Thank you for reaching deep into me, into the loving me that once existed before this betrayal and that exists but is buried under angry, hurt, and ugly me 😞. I have watched hours of affair recovery, I have read at least 6 books on betrayal and infidelity, I have done individual, couples, group & trauma therapy, I made a trip to Austin for Hope Rising in October. I try everyday to heal and grow and be ok. I wake up ok some days then others full of anxiety. I ask questions over and over and fight with all that I am when one thing has changed. Throughout any given day I want to divorce and leave him because how will I ever trust him again? Then I miss and love him and see the hard work he’s doing and the positive changes and I have hope. I can home full of my family and everyone I love and be overwhelmed with sadness and excuse myself so no one knows and I cry then put myself back together as if I just went to the bathroom and I’m totally fine. One of the first things I read from you was how healing from this is brutal and beautiful it’s brutiful and I say this all the time. No matter the hours of YouTube, the books, the blogs, the random encounters or moments... I’m finding small diamonds to take along this healing journey. I want to thank you so very much for being one of the biggest contributors to my healing journey. Thank you for always reminding us you too have been here and you understand. Thank you for reminding me to not only see the bad but to see the whole picture which is much larger. Like many other days before thank you for saving me this morning from going down the dark road in my mind.

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    1. KarmaN,
      This site and these incredible women have added so much to my own life and my own healing. I feel lucky every day for this community.
      Everything you're feeling (the up, the down, the who knows) sounds familiar. It will smooth out. Sometimes the healing itself becomes exhausting. Don't be afraid to rest. To not read, to not listen to podcasts...to just be. To walk and notice the birds or the flowers. To just remember that, right now, you're okay.

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  8. My spirit was just so broken when I stumbled on this literally at 3am. I so broken and know so much right now I can't take any more details. Thank you all for sharing. I am new to this realization in my life and marriage and it's so hard. This has provided me a glimpse of hope.

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    1. Anonymous,
      I'm so sorry for the pain you're in. I created this site because of those lonely, heartbroken 3 a.m. moments. A community of women who would know how I felt, who would offer comfort and compassion, who could remind me that the pain will subside.
      There is hope, Anonymous, and it's in you. It's in you when you are gentle with yourself, when you prioritize your healing, when you, step by step, remind yourself that there's still beauty and joy in your future, whether with or without him. My heartbreak, my rules is our tagline and is guides our healing.

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    2. The devastating reality that my husband, friend and partner of 27 years could lie to my face for almost two years really shook my world, and my faith in humanity. Truth finding was crucial for me. I HAD to make sense of what happened, to understand. The hardest thing about truth finding for me was this:
      My husband never shared any of the details until I peeled back each lie, layer by layer. The year of
      "trickle truth" that followed D-day cemented a full blown PTSD condition (doing better now w/therapy). With each new fact about the betrayal, I was sent back to the beginning, had to start the recovery process over (and over!)again. Let's be clear, "trickle truth" is a polite euphemism for continued LYING. He knew the lying was making me sick, but didn't have the courage to come clean about any of the details. And, lies of omission are still lies. How much better it would have been for both of us if he had been honest about everything to do with the betrayal right away rather than put me through a year of post D-day trickle truth torture. Sometimes I ask myself, maybe I should have just let it go - was it really that important for me to know the details? Did insisting on complete honesty and full disclosure contribute to the PTSD? WAS I MAKING MYSELF SICK by ferreting out each and every undisclosed detail to confront him with? In essence, yes, but the true culprit was the continued lying, not my need for the truth. The problem was the his behavior, not my reaction to it. I hope that makes sense!
      Elle, is there's only ONE thing cheating husbands should believe and put into practice after D-day, it's the importance of telling the truth right away about all of it. Continuing to lie and hide details only prolongs the time it takes to get to a place of healing, and can make your partner sick.

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    3. Yes, that is the truth. Trickle truth is lying. Often lying by omission. And yes, it can certainly create PTSD. I'm so sorry for everything you've gone through.
      I'm certainly not advocating for anyone to continue to lie or to be in control of what we do or do not know. That is OUR choice. I wrote this only to caution those of us who want to know EVERYTHING that those details can sometimes be traumatizing and create further damage. Nonetheless, I think what we do/don't know about the affair is up to us, not the cheater. He needs to come clean. "My heartbreak, my rules."

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    4. Thanks Elle! Good reminder: what we want (or need) to know is up to us, not the betrayer. For example,it was important for me to know what kind of food they shared(what kind restaurants, how much was spent, did he cook for her, did he buy groceries for her house). My husband thought my need to know this was over the top, but it was important for me to know these facts so I could assess how much he valued her, how generous he was with his time and (our) money. Turns out, not much investment in her at all - either time, money or even emotion. He shacked up at her house and took her out for pizza and Chinese food a couple of times, bought some groceries once. It helped me to put their "relationship" into context, and helped me to decide if I would give my cheater a second chance. The decision to give him a second chance might have been different if he'd taken her out to fancy restaurants or cooked for her in her home. Did I need to know what kind of pizza they ordered or the shopping list the time they went to the grocery store? No, I did not. Not worth the repeated trauma.
      Another good reminder - everyone is different. Another betrayed wife might not want to know this kind of stuff, and for some continuing to press for minute details could indeed be traumatizing. It was for me! Again, doing better now with therapy. PTSD is a bear, but can be conquered with therapy, and it's particularly helpful if the cheater is willing to help be the healer. Which my A**hat husband came around to eventually after the year of post D-Day lying. I was able to start healing after I gleaned the truths I needed to know, not what HE thought I needed to know.

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  9. Long story short. I was a professional pain shopper. I got just about everything i needed and more at such a high price. We started reconciliation almost immediately after d day 1. And yes, within 2.5 years there was a terrible d-day two. And i completely understand wanting to know details. I didn’t want acts I’d positions though or to know what she looked like. I wanted to know when i was lied to and how many times. I was exhausted with these snoop
    Sessions that cost me sleep and sanity. But i didn’t want to stop. I had so much info. So much ammo (my h was a true whore monger but he thought he was special and they were in love ) one night as i was bleary eyed from my detective work i asked myself if i found one more thing, would i leave him then? I hadn’t left after finding about that Craigslist ads, the hookers, the volume of bullshit and cash spent. The lying that went on for years. If one more thing wasn’t going to change my resolve why did i need to know? Without knowing all i still knew way too much. Text messages. Chats. WhatsApp’s. Endless. I realized after a while i was just torturing myself and like that i stopped. Listen i get it. You want to know it all i did too. but there are a few things that still haunt me. Break me. I wish I’d never found them. He’s a different guy now. Or i would have e been gone years ago. . Not only do i feel lucky, I’ll tell you who's really lucky- he is. He knows it too

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  10. I found out about my husband’s affair two weeks ago. She found me through Facebook and told me. He denied it and then relented and admitted it. I’m all over the map emotionally and feel so terribly alone. We are going to try marriage counseling. I’m scared to death. I don’t know what to think, what to do. We have children so I have been stuffing my feelings inside so my rage doesn’t boil over. I feel absolutely lost. Writing this is gut wrenching. To read the words; to consider this my reality. I have severe anxiety and just about had a panic attack tonight from all the suppression. One minute I want to unleash my wrath, the next I want to hug him. I just don’t know what I want to do. I know I cannot make permanent decisions based on temporary emotions. I just hate being in this horrible place. I have a therapist; thank God but I feel like I need an army of women around me holding me up at my weakest. When every decision carries enormous weight and repercussions. Help. I need encouragement; badly.

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    1. Anonymous,
      First the good news: You have an army of women. We're often invisible but we're not silent. As you'll read on this site, there are literally thousands (millions!!) of women who know exactly what you're going through because they've gone through it too. The whole reason I created this site was because I too felt so alone. I wanted a sisterhood. So...here we are.
      The other good news: You will get through this. I promise you that. I know it feels like literal hell. I know that horrible feeling of not knowing what to do, where to go, what to think. And when you've got kids (I had three young kids when the bomb hit), you're also trying to put on that mask so that they're not afraid. I did tell my kids that "mommy and daddy were having some problems", just because I do think anxiety is carried in the air and I didn't want them to disregard what their guts were telling them. I compared it to when they have an argument with a friend at school. Assured them that we were doing everything we could to work it out.
      The bad news: It takes a really long time to move through this. I'm glad you have a therapist because you need that support, especially with an anxiety disorder. My eldest daugther has severe anxiety and I know how debilitating it can be. Your first priority has to be self-care. Be gentle with yourself. Be patient with yourself. You have been dealt a huge shock and your body will respond accordingly.
      You'll notice the tagline at the top of this page, courtesy of Steam who posted above you. "My heartbreak, my rules." YOU get to decide where you go from here. YOU get to make that decision when you're ready to. Most experts recommend waiting at least 6 months before you make any big decisions. As you've noted, emotions are all over the place. And if he plans on reconciliation, you need to SEE that he's doing everything he can to seek help and figure out why he risked everything that mattered for someone who, likely, didn't.
      Anonymous, we're here. Keep posting. The women here are amazing -- smart and compassionate and so so kind. You're among friends.

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  11. I'm two months out from DD2 when the full extent of this horror story was unveiled. Three years ago we had DD1 and because he lied about it then we never healed or resolved anything and life went on and he went back to her.

    This affair was 8 years long (she lived out of town so it was 3 times max per year) but we have only been together for 9 so it feels like my whole history with him doesn't make sense anymore. On 3 December I contacted the OW through an email address I found and told her he was married and she told me her version of the story and my world exploded like a nuclear bomb had gone off.

    As soon as it was out there he fronted up and now says he is telling the truth. He appears to be genuinely sorry and remorseful and is being totally different from last time and in fact I have never seen him trying so hard to make things right. I am in that awful phase where I can't believe anything he says. Thankfully the OW has gone from the picture as she had actually dumped him back in August as she found out he had been lying to her.

    Sadly I'm currently living in a place I call 'Trauma Town'. I had one of those meltdowns last night that went on from 7.00pm to 2.00am where I am asking questions and wanting all the details. Today I have realised that I actually don't need to know EVERY single thing and that it is in fact hurting me more to keep on asking questions about specifics. Most of it he can't remember anyway due to the longevity and sporadic nature of this affair.

    So I asked myself today why do I need to know anything more? I know all I need to know and the rest is just pain shopping as someone said above. And trying to compare myself to OW and I've decided I don't care about what she was like because if she was better than me he would have gone to be with her and she would have been welcome to him. I have asked him about his connection with her and am satisfied with the answers.

    There are just some things that are better not to know and I never thought I would say that. It was an affair and by the very definition of that, there are lies and betrayal scattered through our history. I cannot rewrite the past and thrashing around in there is a hiding to nowhere. It only hurts me and when I come out of it and back into the present I struggle more. We can only make changes in the present. Yes my real history with him now is not how I would like it to be and it's different from what I thought was going on and the pain for this is unbearable but what can I do. If I could rewrite history wouldn't I go back and change mine so that I never met him and my life took another path. Why would I wish to change history so he wouldn't cheat... that was his choice and his history. So with that in mind I have decided today that I don't want to go back in there rummaging around trying to make sense of it. I can't and never will be able to. It will come and smack me around with triggers when I least expect it so there is no percentages in me willingly going back in there just for the sake of it.

    I have decided that I will be happy again one day... I just have to get through this trauma stage and allow myself to heal. My Dad just died three months ago and my Mum is not well at the moment either, so I am carrying a heavy load but I will not let his bad decisions break me anymore. FTS Tuesday really resonated with me and even though today I am tearful and distracted I know there is a way through this... either with or without him and he will either continue to show up or he won't and if he doesn't then I will exit him from my life in a heartbeat. My love for him is deep but it is not naive any longer. I will no longer waste another day on a half baked relationship. We are all in or we are done.

    Thanks for letting me join the group.. until now I was feeling very alone and ashamed even though I know it's not my fault.

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    1. Shoe Queen,
      Welcome. You are among friends who know your pain and can remind you, as often as necessary, that yes, you will get through this.
      You have incredible insight and that will serve you well. Though of course we want to know details -- we think that knowing will somehow protect us -- it's important to recognize when we know everything we need to know. That's when we can begin to shift focus from the affair to our healing. What's important now is processing the pain around his choice to cheat.
      I'm so sorry for the loss of your father and the issues with your mother. I, too, lost my mother within weeks of D-Day 2. It complicates our grief and loss.
      But hang in there. You are not alone. The shame is not yours to carry.

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    2. Thanks Elle. Nice to be among friends who get this. I've just had a great session with a psychologist all about healing me (independent of him) so that feels good. Time for me to stop the overthinking and ruminating. I'm so looking forward to the new me!

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  12. Hi Elle, thanks for this amazing safe and supportive place.

    My Dday was just a week ago. The pain is still raw. A week ago I found out H was having an affair with his coworker. I knew because the OW's husband called me to let me know.

    It was a shock because back in 2017 they were having an affair, but not the physical one yet (or so according to him). This one, yes. They slept together, not having sex (again according to him), for three nights during their work trip. Shared kisses several times and all those stuff like holding hands and caressing each other and such.

    I have 2 kids, 6 and 4 years old.

    I am now an emotional wreck. I'm not sure if I want to stay with him or leave. If I stay, how do I know he won't cheat on me again? If I leave, how to explain it to my kids?

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    1. Athena,
      I have been exactly where you are. Discovering an affair with a co-worker, three kids that were 5,7 and 9 years old. And grappling with the idea of staying or leaving. And, you're only two weeks out so it's all still shocking and raw.
      My advice is to put some "rules" in place if he even wants you to CONSIDER giving him a second chance. He needs to have zero contact with her (which might mean a new job, or a new position within the company), he needs to give you total access to any forms of communication with her and he needs to be totally honest and transparent about what happened and anything further that happens, which includes bumping into her in the hallway at work until he leaves. "My heartbreak, my rules" is the motto of our club and it basically means that, as you heal, you get to set the terms of that. Not him.
      If he's unwilling to do any of that, he's essentially prioritizing his comfort over yours. Betrayal is devastating, far worse than any of us ever imagined it would be.
      As for whether he might cheat again, it's possible, of course. It's also possible that someone who's never cheated before might cheat. And that someone who cheated, might never cheat again. It really comes down to his reckoning with what he did. If he comes to understand why he cheated, what he got out of it, what stories he was telling himself that somehow made it okay, etc. I would insist he seek counselling to figure this out. And I hope you will too, in order to help you process this pain as you parent young kids, which is exhausting in itself.
      Athena, however this plays out, I want you to know that you're going to be okay. It hurts like hell now. I know. But it won't always. You will heal from this. Prioritize that healing. Be gentle with yourself. Give yourself time to make big decisions. Figure out what you want. Is he a good guy who made a horrible choice? Or this choice emblematic of his other behaviours (ie. is he a not-so-great guy?)?
      Your heartbreak, your rules.

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