I recently posted on Twitter something about how none of us is obliged to give anyone a second chance and that if we're going to extend such a gift, to make sure he's worthy of it. Don't give a second chance to someone who insists you need to get over this on his timeline. Or who doesn't believe in therapy, except for you because he's fine but you, clearly, are crazy. Or who refuses to talk to you about your pain, or support you when you're triggered.
I should have known. I should have known that when I posted something about second chances, I was pretty much holding the door open for the "once a cheater, always a cheater" crowd to walk in and start ranting about how second chances are for suckers.
I get so tired of it.
Maybe I'm more tired of it than usual because everything feels so polarized right now and nobody seems to want to give anybody any leeway, or have a conversation with any nuance, or consider that another's motives just maybe aren't as horrible as we assume.
Maybe I'm more tired of it than usual because I've been hearing this same bullshit for 12 years, since I first learned of my husband's betrayal and figured there was only one door I could go through and it swung just one way.
Maybe I'm tired of it because so many of those old nuggets that we thought we'd left behind – that women lie about sexual assault, that sexual harassment is just women being too sensitive, that if women worked as hard as men they'd have shattered that glass ceiling – have been revealed as alive and well in our culture. We haven't come as far as we thought we had.
Maybe I'm particularly tired of it because, with my new book out, I'm still hiding in the shadows because cheating remains the most unforgivable of sins and my husband continues to live in abject fear of being exposed as the scummiest of scumbags. Despite 12 years of working his ass off to be a better husband. Despite 12 years of learning how to reconcile acceptance of what he did with the values he holds.
Or maybe I'm just tired of it because the "once a cheater..." adage is demonstrably untrue.
I think, however, that what I'm most tired of is this notion that we have to choose a team. Team Second Chance vs. Team Once a Cheater.
I don't have a problem with anyone for whom cheating is a deal-breaker. Nobody is under any obligation to stay with a cheater (or a non-cheater, for that matter). But it's a far different thing to stand firmly in the "it's a deal-breaker" camp than in the "once a cheater" camp. One focuses on responding to past actions. The other focuses on predicting future actions.
I have many friends who've been betrayed. Some have left, some have stayed, some are still the process of figuring it out. It matters not one bit whether they extended a second chance or whether they showed him the door within five minutes of finding out. Without fail, every single one of them has had to navigate the heartbreak of betrayal. Some husband have stepped up, some have continued the affair, some have remained utterly clueless about how their actions devastated their wife and children, others have morphed into husband-of-the-year. It hasn't really mattered. What has mattered is that the betrayal itself changed everything. And within that devastation, our sisters need our support. Not our judgement. Not our opinions. Our support.
Support looks like a hug. It looks like a casserole. It looks like a Miniature Horse or two (seriously. Ask one of our retreat attendees). It looks like showing up for each other with no advice at all. It looks like the freedom to make our own choices about how to respond to betrayal without shame or ridicule or dismissal.
I can't possibly know whether your husband will cheat again. I can't possibly know whether my husband will cheat again. What I can do is encourage you to examine your marriage with clear eyes. I can encourage you to create and enforce boundaries. I can point out when your husband's behaviour is abusive. Or dismissive of your pain. I can remind you that hope isn't the same thing as evidence.
And I can help create this place where you can bring your pain and your disappointment and know that you will not be shouted down or mocked because your response to betrayal is different than mine.
This tent is big enough to hold all of us. Except the liars.
The kickass survival site for anyone who's ever been lied to, cheated on and left for dead.
ELLE, such honesty is refreshing. Once a cheater always a cheater. My foot is on both side of this. I do believe everyone deserves a second chance. Deep in my heart I know my H previously cheated on me. He never got caught. After he got caught, deep in my heart I know he won't cheat again. So he is and yet he isn't.
ReplyDeleteAbout sexual assault, my H and I have several heated arguments about this. He pontificates about this but yet he has never been sexually assaulted. His opinion is not based on experience. Back in the day, I would have lost my job. I went through a list times that he agreed were sexual innuendos but not an assault. This subject seem polarized and either swings one way or the other. I'm sick of men who have an opinion that is not based on experience, except there experience which isn't the same as getting sexually assaulted. What makes me really mad is the women who cry wolf and make it that much harder for the rest of us.
I wonder what your H thought about your book, thanks for sharing this personal part of you.
This site has supported me for 5 years! I learn something from every post. I have so many casseroles already but room for more. This site has evolved over time into some very serious issues not just about betrayal but women and the challenges of everyday life. Sometime I was too weak to stand up for my self, but everyone was cheering for me to stand-up, supporting me to stand up, asking if I ever did stand up. I eventually do because this site helps me to be a better person. Not everyone can say that Elle.
LLP,
DeleteYes, this site has evolved. As I've grown more comfortable with my role as formerly betrayed wife, I've come to realize that betrayal by our partners is mirrored by the way in which our culture continues to betray us and the ways in which we often betray ourselves. We women hold up the world, from literally creating future generations to taking care of the old/young and in-between, we largely do the work. And then we get dismissed as hysterical, emotional, demanding and we're sidelined.
What I've learned from 9 years of posting and reading on this site is that women are so incredibly strong and forgiving and nurturing. We are capable of such incredible kindness. And we are fierce as hell. But a lot of us need to be reminded of that because fierceness often isn't rewarded publicly.
I read this post and I read my evolution from dday forward. On dday I believed what society perpetuates the once a cheater mentality. I had no idea what to do or where to turn. Elle you have been so helpful alongside my therapist. Really everything you write here is key to working through this. So many ah ha moments. Thank you for your guidance and patience helping me get to where I am today.
ReplyDeleteMy pleasure. And thank-you for all you contribute to this site. We learn from each other.
DeleteAbsolutely wonderful post, thank you so much. Like Hopeful30, I have also evolved away from the belief "once a cheater, always a cheater" with regard to my husband although my husband's past behavior prior to D-day seems to fit that description. We have moved to a much better place as a couple thanks to many things including my secret sisters here and you. I'm hoping you can figure out how to connect some of us (me) with some of those who went to the retreat.
ReplyDeleteHi! Beach Girl! I would love to talk to you about the retreat. Elle has my email so she told me to tell you to post something with your email address and she will give it to me but will not post it publicly. Thanks!
DeleteThank you Elle for this space and your amazing insightful posts...i'm new here so thought i'd speak up. My Dday#1 at least was about 3 months ago. I got a lot of trickle truthing/a few big bombs dropped between then and now but I think all is out now. Basically my husband who I have been with for nearly 10 years at this point and have 2 very young daughters with, has been having mainly unprotected sex with various women throughout our marriage mainly at sex parties which he attended by borrowing my parents car when we visit my country (!!!) but he also had a non emotional aka booty call type affair on and off for the past 5 years. I knew my husband had a very high libido and that he was becoming increasingly obsessive and demanding about sex but I never would have dreamed he was capable of this, I never suspected til I saw email correspondence re the sex parties on his laptop. He agreed to start counselling and it has quickly become obvious that he has a sex addiction. I do believe he is genuinely remorseful and believe him when he says he wants to recover and will do anything to make amends for what he did. He apologises to me every day and even apologised to my parents and told his dad so all his family now know and of course are unhappy with him. I have seen him changing fir the better, he isibasically doing all the right things now but I am really struggling with the enormity of what he did particularly that when he was partaking in this unprotected sex I was pregnant and I am so horrified that he took such an insane, enormous risk with mine and our children's health and lives. I just don't know if I can stay and try and work things out knowing that he could've harmed the most precious and important people in my life and he didn't even bother taking a test til now, years after my pregnancies. He is clean thank GOD but that's some sort of miracle. We live together in his home country so within a few days I will be flying to my own country with my girls to stay with my family for a while to figure out what I should do. I'm just so devastated, so confused...because my husband lives overseas and Its not suitable for me to live there as a single mother I would need to move overseas with my daughter's and that would mean he only sees them at best twice a year. That breaks my heart. Yet he made the choices he made not thinking about anyone but himself. I don't want to ruin their lives but I am also so terrified at his recklessness.
ReplyDeleteYou are in a very tender spot. My heart goes out to you. What everyone on this site will tell you is to just take the next right step. It sounds like moving to be with your parents is your next right step. You don’t have to think past that right now. Take care of yourself and those beautiful children.
DeleteH.O.P.E.
Hold On Pain Ends
I promise it will in time.
So sorry you find yourself here. It really is so hard to comprehend some days. You are early on in this process. Elle, this site (the other women) and my therapist have made this recovery seem possible. I am over 3 1/2 years past dday 1. Different stories but same feelings. My husband had two affairs over ten years, we have been together over 25 years. Unprotected sex etc. What I have learned is really what Elle says in this post. I had to learn to focus on me, it was not my fault and determine the boundaries if/when we moved forward. I can see where the international component is a challenge but I think you are right that these were his choices. You have to do what is best for you which in the end will be best for your kids. I will say the only thing that kept me around in the early days and months were my kids. Over time that has switched.
DeleteIt has been a lot of work. I believed what society said about affairs. I blamed myself and felt like I was at fault. It has taken a long time. But at about 12-15 months I really felt better. That was when I saw how much this affected my husband. At that point the focus shifted to him and his healing I guess you could say. And more so since I was in a better spot. I figured since he made these decisions he did not need to recover. However I could not be more wrong. I think he has been more affected than me. The best way I can explain it is he betrayed himself first and foremost and let himself down. He can never undo that.
My best advice is to figure out what you want to do. You set the agenda/boundaries/needs. What type of relationship/marriage do you want. And over time what I want has evolved. What I thought was okay right after dday has changed. My expectations have elevated actually. And I have said to my husband on more than one occasion he has to do "x" otherwise I would rather be alone.
Be kind to yourself and give yourself time. Best wishes
Hi Anon: I don't post here often, mostly because nothing I have to offer is even remotely as profound or insightful as what all of these other wonderful women can offer. That said, your post struck a chord with me bc, like you, the unprotected nature of my husband's affair was one of the hardest things with which to come to terms. It won't help for a while...hell, it won't even make sense for a while, but one of the best pieces of advice you'll see here time and time again is to remember that it had nothing to do with you. You and I sit and think to ourselves "how the hell could he NOT think of me... Of my health...of our children?!" But he just wasn't. It is a concept that drove me crazy for a long time while I tried to understand it. It felt like a slap in the face, but as the years have passed for me, it has started to make sense. I've started to understand how well he compartmentalized. I can see how broken and stuck in his own despair he was. And I can now see how visibly sick it makes him to realize that he risked the health of his kids. I'm three years post DDay and I still don't have the answers, I still get angry sometimes. The point at which you find yourself now is so confusing and maddening and heart wrenching. I'm glad you're able to get away with your girls for a bit. I hope you find even a moment of peace. I promise, it does get easier.
DeleteThank you all so much for your replies, it is a real life line to me
DeleteAnonymous,
DeleteI felt very much the same. Like yours, my husband had a sex addiction and risked my health and that of my children without my knowledge. I was FURIOUS about that. How can anyone do that? I don't think I'll ever really understand except to know that my husband feels deeply ashamed of the choices he made and has worked hard to become a better man. That said, like I wrote in my post, I was under no obligation to give him a second chance. Neither are you.
But I would urge you to give yourself time to digest this. It's such a shock to our system that I honestly think it's months before we're really thinking clearly about what we want and need for ourselves and our family.
In that time, too, you'll see whether he's truly committed to recovery, which may (or may not) shift your willingness to rebuild a marriage with him.
But right now, your focus needs to be on keeping yourself as well as you can so you can mother your children and keep yourself safe and strong.
Thank you for your response Elle, I remembered your case bore much resemblance to mine so I really appreciate your response. I keep reading that you should give it a year to figure out what you want to do so I am shooting for that but as you said, I'm really just struggling to even process this right now and it's like I'm feeling everything full force now, mainly i'm extremely fearful of the future. I have the urge to flee yet also the awareness that I can't actually escape what happened. Mine and my husbands ideal situation, for obvious reasons, is to keep the family together and rebuild a better marriage. We have both seen glimpses of what could be and I do have some hope though right now as I said it's buried under overwhelming fear. Until he hurt me with that last bit of trickle truthing I still felt love for him but now I'm not sure. I think I just detached myself from him to avoid further hurt. Well, I will stay with my family at least 3 months and solidify my currently very flimsy plan b and I figure I will likely return to my husband at least til the one year mark to really work hard with individual as well as couple's counselling and see how things go. Thank you again for this wonderful site, you do the most incredible work here. Truly I don't know what I'd have done if I hadn't found this site.
DeleteUnfortunately for me this is true with my ex. Cheating, lying, deceiving a world of porn, prostitutes and sex - the fantasy world - became his drug, and he wasn't going to give it up. Not for me, our kids or the family life we created. It took me a while to realise that his shitty choices were not about me. Not about me being "not enough, not this, nor that", but this is all on him and his mental problems with his narcissistic traits and huge ego with sense of selfish entitlement. Our marriage didn't stand a chance, and it didn't help having his idiot selfish mother encouraging him to leave to "find his happiness". Or his now skank who has been pursuing him for ages all because she has not been able to get her own man.
ReplyDeleteSo once when I was so anxious as to why "I was not worth fighting for - our marriage and family", I now know - it's all on him. My worth as a person is testament to my children's love and support of me, my own siblings and the many varied groups of friends who love me.
Yes it's still a kick in the guts and I will never forgive him for turning our world upside down, and I have had many dark moments with all of his betrayal, but I am proud of the fact that I have been strong enough to get up and show up everyday for the kids, work, pets and life when many times I just wanted to curl up and forget about life. It really annoys me when people say betrayal has nothing to do with the kids! IT DOES. Coming from a family where dad walked out on us, all I ever wanted was a "complete family of my own". It started out that way, but now my ex has done the same as my father. Ex didn't have a good role model as his father was a cheater and an angry man. He even said himself "dad was a shit at times..." You'd think as an adult he'd realise that wasn't healthy normal human behaviour and set out to change...no. He couldn't. Change would admit he has too many flaws and his ego got in the way. So it's his loss to lose me and the family life. Last night he just didn't show up to the kids presentation night. I'm sure he'll have some excuse that he'll run with but there is no excuse for not being present in your children's life...but with him - he parents when he wants.
Whatever you chose dear friends, to stay or kick him out, we are here for you.
Hugs
Gabby xo
Gabby,
DeleteI'm so glad you're able to see that his behaviour is about what's wrong with HIM not what's wrong with you. And, as you write, that's clear in that you have so many relationships in your life where you're valued and loved. His loss.
Some of these men are never able to be good partners. They will continue to hurt people until (if!), they're willing to examine their own behaviour and the impulses behind it.
Great post Elle, and I’ve got your back
ReplyDeleteOn this.
I love listening to the haters and what they would do blah blah blah, the bottom line is they don’t have a bloody clue what they would do until it happens to them.. period..gosh there are so many layers to betrayal, it’s so frigging complicated!!! I had a conversation with my 20 something year old fellow students the other day about my situation and gosh were they judgemental.. ‘I’d never let my ex in the house if he did that!’ ‘Your so mature to try and be friends with him for the kids, he betrayed you why not kick his ass to the kerb?’ You know what I’m talking about the old ‘bullshit’ people like to comment on. But the thing is we know life’s not as simple as that. We can’t walk away when we have children, joint business, living in in-laws etc etc. We must try to come to a place that is safe and peaceful for all concerned. Even when they’ve been shitty and had 3,4 however many d days we find a way to work with what is laid out in front of us. But our first course of action should be to tend to our pain, so we find a friend that understands and doesn’t judge who just listens or we come here where we know our sisters will respond with such kindness. I’ve had a good 5 years to heal and deal with the haters and I can only hope and pray it doesn’t happen to them. But sadly we know it most likely will.
Love you ladies and thank you for giving me so much hope and knowledge over the last 5 years I am a better stronger woman for it..
Hugs xx
Sam A,
DeleteYes, you're absolutely right that our first task is to tend to our own pain. But how many of us, even as we're trying to do that, are also trying to keep a family intact, protect kids from the fallout, protect our parents and in-laws from being disappointed, etc. In short, we're jugging all the balls thrown in the air by HIS cheating.
So yes, these young 'uns haven't yet a clue what they'll do when it happens to them. But I wonder if they'll think back and remember you and realize that they do have options.
Elle, the reason this is a kick ass site is because you are a kick ass kind of woman!
ReplyDeleteYour post proves it!
Thanks LilyLove. Feeling kinda like the world is kicking MY ass at the moment. Having a hard time supporting a friend in her betrayal, and another friend's heartbreak re. her drug-addicted son. I need pictures of pets to cheer me up.
DeleteElle all I can say is thank you! Thank for being there and for keeping us going. You don’t have to do it but you keep on and you give us hope and that is so important. I know your journey can’t be easy, but none of our journeys are easy. You are our fearless leader and we don’t take lightly your guidance and light!! I would not be where I am today without you!! Keep shining your light. We need you!!!
ReplyDelete*blushing*
DeleteI love your posts/perspective, they are so helpful to read when I am feeling unmoored and uncertain and doubting my decision to stay. I'm "only" two plus years in post DD and it's comforting to know I'm not alone. thank you.
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome. If it's any consolation, I think we do become clearer in our choice. At this point, if my marriage breaks up, it won't be because of his cheating. That feels firmly in the past. If he cheats again, however, buh-bye!
DeleteHello,
ReplyDeleteI first visited this site in March 2015, just a few weeks after I discovered my husband cheated. Sometime, within the first year I posted my story ( don’t know how to find it. Not sure if the username). Since then I’ve been lurking in the background, gathering support in all the posts and advice. I almost signed up for the weekend get together, but I chickened out.
Elle,
Today‘s post really resonated with me.
Wives-Matter,
DeleteI love your user name!! We do matter. (Though I'm sure some husband will wander in here and respond with #HusbandsMatterToo.)
You did miss a really special weekend. But we have to heal at our own pace. If you weren't ready, then you weren't ready.
But I hope you will consider sharing more often. The support here is truly healing.
I have a different spin on this and it's probably all just semantics or maybe not? I too am sick of the whole tribal mentality, I'm right-you're wrong, you're an idiot etc. I was a sexually abused person. It happened when I was 11-13. Not constantly but occasionally. I never told anyone including my parents because I firmly believed it was I who did something wrong. I was at fault. So I kept my mouth shut. I never told anyone until I was 25 and my abuser came to my home with other family members. Yes he was a family member. An in law. I was pregnant with my second child and was napping in my room when they came over. I refused to my husband to get up to go see them because my abuser was with them. That is when I told anyone what happened to me so many years ago. Do I have complete 100% memory of what happened and when and where. A big fat resound NO. I spent many years trying to forget it. I was ashamed and embarrassed. Then I became pissed and disgusted. And guess what even after all those years when I finally DID tell I was told to keep quiet about it. Not to tell my other family members what he had done for fear of upsetting "them". This whole Dr Ford testimony and that fuck face Brett has brought back many many bad memories for me. And it doesn't end. I can't believe how many people still blame the victim and don't believe her. Well I say to them I hope you all have daughters or sisters or nieces and that they meet men exactly like Brett if you think he's so wonderful. He's a lying scum!
ReplyDeleteEnough of that. This strictly MY own opinion and MY own experience in both subjects of my comment. I don't care if anyone agrees or believes me. I'm past needing validation in my life to give credence to my narrative.
I don't know if what I did was to "give a second chance" to him. For all I know he may feel he's given ME a second chance. I also hate using that term because I feel like I'm being Mommy and doling out rewards/punishments. AGAIN just MY experience here and NO judgement to others who believe differently in this regard.
As for Once A Cheater, Always A Cheater, well they are cheaters and nothing changes the fact that they cheated. That cheater history stays no matter how much time passes. It took me a long LONG time to accept the fact he cheated for 4 years! I cannot deny it. It happened. Just because there's been progress and set backs in our relationship since then doesn't negate the fact he cheated, that he was a cheater. More to accept is I have no clue whether or not he will cheat again. No guarantees for anything None, zero, zilch. Given his history? I know he's capable. Given recent actions and vows, maybe not. I'm done trying to predict a future either way.
I guess I alike it to an addict. Even though one has kicked the habit they still refer to themselves an addict. An addict who doesn't use, but none the less an addict. So maybe I simply see him as a cheater, but a cheater who isn't cheating.
I believe the problem arises when others want to teach us or warn us that we are living with a cheating time bomb and maybe I am. But guess what? I am mightily armed this time :)
Good post Elle. Can't wait to start your book. Again congrats.
TH, I too relate to your beginning comments. For me it was being raped in college. So many similar feelings to Dr. Ford. And back then no one came forward. And even now look at what she has dealt with coming forward. It is so upsetting and mind numbing that this is our society. Watching their demeanor and words while testifying was like an out of body experience. I am so upset and disgusted he was confirmed and appointed to the supreme court. For me it brings up horrible feelings of my past and in a way confirms why I kept quiet. Women are questioned and blamed for "their" part. He had a track record a mile long and even if the sexual assault could not be proven he has to have an issue with alcohol. And in the end his demeanor testifying should have disqualified him.
DeleteI feel the same as you that my husband will always have the label of cheater. This will always be part of our relationship and factor into our life every day. It just will never go away. I have thought about it a lot and I think even if we were to separate and/or divorce it would remain part of my life. I have been through many horrible things in life like being raped and many more but this is the hardest/worst by far. I work every day to make the most of it but for me. I will never say never since that is how I used to think. I believe he is less likely now but honestly who knows. I can say for sure I will never do that since I am in control of only myself.
TryingHard,
DeleteYou were incredibly brave to tell your husband and family what happened to you. I am so sorry that they refused to truly acknowledge how much harm and pain you had experienced. I've no doubt that the past month is a big part of why I'm feeling so demoralized and disheartened. Women are being told that our pain doesn't matter. Our experiences are being erased. Which is why we absolutely have to continue to show up for each other, to affirm each other's pain and to remind each other of the strength we have to heal from it. There is, simply, no other way.
And yes, I too see cheating as an undeniable piece of my husband. He did it. He cannot undo it. But I don't see it as the whole of who he is. I come back to that notion that we are more than the worst thing we've ever done.
In my case, I don't see my husband as a cheater who isn't cheating but as a man who cheated and who decided he wanted to be better than that.
Hopeful30,
DeleteWhat's astonishing to me is just how many women have experienced sexual assault. I have two daughters and find myself having this horrible sense of watching sand fall through an hourglass -- when will it happen to one or both of them?
ELLE, it just doesn't have to be assault. When I was 16 on a bus to my aunts a man masturbated who was sitting next to me. I was afraid to say anything. In the old days, when I gowned up a doctor in the OR, I was expected to rub my tits on his back. In ICU a doctor grabbed me and put me on his lap. The last nurse who reported him lost her job. I had my son so that was not an option. When he was done with rounds I hid in a broom closet. An anesthesiologist locked me in supply room and tried to feel me up. I'm not Miss America OK - I had 3 kids by then. I didn't lead these men on either, no flirting, no nothing. With 3 kids and working full time I was too exhausted all the time to give energy to anything else other than my family and patients. I feel positive these men contributed to the high percentage of cheaters.
DeleteElle--I was good for a long time and then the hearings started and the comments about how she lied because there were no witnesses or corroboration to her story. Well guess what abusers wait until no one is looking. I'd have no one to corroborate my story. And an FBI investigation would show nothing and yet I know I'd be called a liar. It's why we stay silent.
DeleteYes, I am down because of all the news too. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of that rude guy occupying the White House right now. I'm not listening to one more word from him.
I like how you put the cheater part. I'm going to try and focus on that too. Thanks Elle :)
Elle, I agree. It does feel like it is inevitable especially with the narrative in our society. So many messages about women and men wrapped together. And I had the one actual experience but many other close calls. And I will say I am a very cautious person, always worked to travel in a group, never dressed that way and watched what I drank. Not that we should have to do any of those things to avoid being sexually assaulted but all true. I felt like there might be some hope with Dr. Ford coming forward but no just another slap in the face.
DeleteTangled in all of that is watching how upset my husband was. This is conflicting for me since he was so moved by Dr. Ford. However I do have a strong gut reaction of anger towards him thinking how can he be so upset by that but then do what he did to me/us after taking vows. He does not see how the dots connect for me. I had to explain how it is all a violation to me. Whether I am talking about being raped, cheated on whatever. On some level I was trusting and decisions were made without me and that trust was shattered. When I met my husband I was very upfront about what had happened to me. I explained that if he wanted to date me I needed time on all levels and extra space. I told him I did not feel safe with men our age. We had many other discussions over time but as he described his boundaries shifted without him realizing.... so complicated.
With my kids I feel the same about sexual assault as I do dating even. I feel like it is a matter of time before they get hurt. All I do is share what I have learned without them knowing what I have gone through. But they have to live their life. So hard!!
So much pain and so many situations in which our power was taken from us. Well, ladies, let's take it back. Let's use our anger to speak up and speak out and support those women who tell us their stories. Let's vote for women who support women. Let's push for policy that protects women. Let's dream of the day when sexual assault is treated the same way as any crime but let's also do what we can to make that day come as soon as possible.
DeleteHi Elle
ReplyDeleteI am 3 years out from D-Day. We are reconciled. There are still bad days and triggers but it has gotten better.
I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your blog. I found your blog within the first 3 hours of D-Day. I locked myself up and read your blog posts again and again for 2 days running.
I honestly believe your blog saved not just my marriage but my mind. I truly believe I would have had a mental breakdown if not for your blog. Your blog helped me stay mentally healthy and away from negative habits like blaming myself right from the start.
Anyway - just wanted to thank you again for all that you've done for me. Every time I have a bad trigger I come to your blog and read it again just to calm down.
I don't exactly believe in God or anything like that but I hope that some higher power showers you with the blessings I wish for you to have.
Love.
Anonymous,
DeleteThank-You so much for writing this post. It makes my heart swell because it's exactly why I created this site. I wasn't lucky enough to find anything that told me my husband's cheating wasn't my fault and spent months stewing in my own sense of inferiority. Really recognizing that his cheating was about HIS failure not mine was like emotional liberation for me. That I could help spare anyone from that particular hell makes me enormously happy.
I'm glad you're doing well. Re. triggers: It took me much closer to five years before I felt like I was largely through with triggers. Even now, they happen now and again, though I wonder if I might feel some of the feelings anyway. I wonder if it has something to do with growing older, feeling sexually invisible in our culture, etc. Though the cheating no doubt plays into that.
In any case, hang in there. I'll sit back and await the blessings you've ordered for me. ;)
I feel so strong about this site. I want to be a part of keeping Elle going - so I donate. It is very easy to do even if you aren't electronically savvy. I feel strongly about supporting and giving back to show my thanks. No Elle did not prompt me to say this, so throw that idea out the window. It is the right thing to do.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, Well thank you for this! I don't respond to those who donate because I'm conscious of violating privacy -- I don't know how many want an e-mail from "betrayed wives club" in their in-box. But I am so incredibly grateful for all the support. And the notes. It means so much to me. (And yes, it gives me a bit of freedom to spend so much time on this site.)
DeleteHopeful30--I am so so sorry you were raped. My heart hurts for you. May I ask, did you keep the rape to yourself? And if you did di you do it because you believed YOU did something to "encourage" the rape, or you simply didn't want people to know and think less of you like you are damaged goods, or maybe even you were someplace you feel you shouldn't have been? I am certain this is why Dr Ford didn't tell her parents what happened. She was a young girl who went someplace she wasn't supposed to be doing something her parents told her not to do, drinking. I wonder if maybe she even had too much to drink and was simply scared to tell anyone so she's pushed it out of her memory. I forgot because I worked hard at forgetting. I didn't want to remember it. I'm pretty sure she spent years forgetting it too.
ReplyDeleteI am shocked at how many women believe this stuff. Our value, or lack of value, is so ingrained in us by society and the messages we get from the day we are born. Everyone else's well being comes before ours even when there's a crime committed against us.
I wish I could reach out to Dr Ford and give her the biggest I BELIEVE YOU hug. It seems all we want is to be believed. Even after betrayal we women work so hard to convince people we WERE good wives and didn't deserve to be betrayed. Then we get that look. You know the one yeah sure you were. you seem like a shrew to me look.
Thanks for your comment Hopefule30
Yeah, I worked hard at forgetting too. I felt such shame. I had been drinking. A lot. When a guy told me that "everybody" (ie. the friends I was with at the bar) was coming back to his place, I believed him. But I said no. Repeatedly. I cried. And he got disgusted with my tears and tossed me aside. Still, I told no-one. It wasn't until I read the story in the news about the girl in Steubenville that I got it. That girl didn't deserve what was being done to her. And I hadn't either. I ended up doing EMDR to process that long buried trauma. It helped a lot. And I can admit I'm part of ANOTHER goddamned club nobody ever wants to be a part of. Too many of us are. But you are safe here. Your stories are safe here.
DeleteI ache for Dr. Ford. I can scarcely imagine her pain and her fury. I hope, wherever she is, she knows that so many of us are grateful for her bravery and her conviction, that she paid the price so that others of us can share our own stories and, hopefully, find healing.
TH, I felt all of those things. I was at a party but I was with friends, did not drink too much, thought I was in a somewhat safe situation since this person was well known to others I was with. I said no very clearly but was physically over powered. Very similar to what Dr. Ford encountered but it went farther. I was older and in college. I felt like it would turn into a he said she said or people minimizing what happened.
DeleteThat was the major incident but so many other incidents in the work place and other situations. And in the work situations I was told by one female boss if I did not like it she could replace me since I had a coveted job at a well known company. Talk about a shock and slap in the face when your female boss says that.
Found this online:
ReplyDeleteFor anyone wanting to send an old school thank you card to Dr. Ford for her bravery and sacrifice. It would be amazing if the post office had to truck them all into the university!
Dr Christine Ford
c/o Palo Alto University
1791 Arastradero Rd
Palo Alto CA 94304 #ThankYouDrFord
I am really dissapointed that this issue has turned political like everything else.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that some people that have cheated can see the pain they caused and change to become a better person. Just as inmates that have committed crimes can rehabilitate themselves and become successful members of society - etc. not all people are like that-some have no morals, no empathy, no conscience, no soul. Unfortunately - that is my STBX.
How does Dr. Ford fit into all of this?? I believe she was a pawn of the democrat party and they used her to stop the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh did something happen to her? Maybe. The facts show that it wasn’t from Brett Kavanaugh. She coached people to pass lie detector tests, she wasn’t afraid to fly, she changed her story a million times-etc.....she reminds me more of my STBX than anyone! Deceptive and fake.
Just as you can’t say “once a cheater always a cheater”-you can’t say the woman is ALWAYS right no matter what and the man is always evil and proven guilty before any facts come out. If my STBX was under the scrutiny of Bret Kavanaugh- with 1 FBI investigation......a Million things would have come up and a bunch of women would have come forward - this guy is a Boy Scout - 7 FBI investigations? Come on!!!
People either have goodness in them and are good people at their core - or they are not. I don’t hear anyone Bring up Bill Clinton- where is the outrage with that asshole. Does anyone care what happened to Kathleen Willy or Juanita Broderick? Why did no one rally around them and believe them. Why not storm the Whitehose and demand impeachment! Utter bullshit. He was proven many times of raping women, having affairs and sexually assaulting women-PROVEN FACTS AND coroberating STORIES AND Police reports.
I’m not a survivor of sexual abuse or assault - but if I were - I’d be pissed at Dr. Ford for making such a mockery of this issue and making it worse for anyone to be believed now.
I love this site and it has helped Me immensly - but the feminist undertones and political agenda leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Ann,
DeleteThe personal is political, to quote a well-known feminist rallying cry.
Somewhere between 2 and 8% of sexual assault accusations are false but investigators note that those false accusations generally fall apart very quickly. So yes, we can't believe ALL women but we can believe somewhere between 92 and 98% of them.
Put another way, it is far more likely that a man will experience sexual assault himself than that he will be falsely accused of it.
I'm not going to get into the rest of your argument because, honestly Ann, there's so much that's incorrect and misguided about it.
I will say this: This site is a feminist site. A proudly feminist site. Because feminism is belief in the political, economic and social equality of the sexes. And I’ll be damned if I’d ever create a space that didn’t fully support that nor would I ever support anything that didn’t see me as a fully equal human being, deserving of the same protections and rights as anyone else.
I will also say this: Sexual assault is an almost epidemic issue in our culture. You are lucky to have never experienced it. It changes everything about how you view the world and, far too often, it steals our voice. As Beach Girl notes below, it is not at all uncommon for those of us who've been sexually harassed or assaulted to be encouraged, if we muster the courage to tell anyone at all, to stay silent about it. Our culture wrings its hands about the futures of boys accused of sexual violence while worrying far less about the futures of those who allege they've been assaulted. You, Ann, are part of that culture that encourages women to stay silent, to see their own futures as less valuable than those of their assaulters. That chastises women for taking too long to come forward or for coming forward too soon; for being not traumatized enough, or for being too traumatized to keep her story straight; for being so wrecked by the experience as to not be taken seriously or for having overcome it sufficiently to be rendered too successful to have suffered it.
Your words here have caused pain. You could use this as an opportunity to educate yourself about this issue, which affects so many of your secret sisters. If so, you might start here: https://www.rainn.org/statistics
I hope you’ll rise to it.
Ann,
ReplyDelete"I’m not a survivor of sexual abuse or assault - but if I were - I’d be pissed at Dr. Ford for making such a mockery of this issue and making it worse for anyone to be believed now. " about says all I need to know about your comments because I have been sexually assaulted twice. Once in high school by a long time boyfriend who was an alter boy, only child of a prominent local Catholic family and and well known athlete. The second time was as a young adult when I went to a party with college friends. Mixed crowd, lots of fun, drinking for sure however when I was followed into the bathroom by one of my "guy friends" who was intoxicated I felt fear. This nice guy was the son of two local doctors. He was known as a party animal and I always kept my distance from him because my internal radar was on high alert when he was around. He put his hand over my mouth and drug me to the bedroom. I also thought he might accidentally kill me. My heart went out to Dr. Ford. I understood exactly what she felt and how she felt and why she did not talk about it for years. In my case, when I was in high school, I told my counselor and she advised me to get a pregnancy test and not make waves because his family would retaliate against me and my family. She was blunt. This was 1968. Second one was 1976. I went to the clinic after and was examined. I went alone. The doctor was good friends with this guys family and unbelievably to this day, she talked to me as if I had done something wrong. She asked me to think hard before reporting to the police because I would be treated poorly and would I really want "this one time event" ruin this guys life? "And what about my reputation?" I ran in the same circle as this guy. Mr. Nice Guy from an upstanding family, right? I struggled for years until I finally had a compete breakdown and was hospitalized for a suicide attempt at the age of 30. So Ann, let me assure you that we never forget. Never. We remember the person, we remember how they made us feel and we live our lives knowing that we were marginalized, victimized and silenced for being female. So Ann, what you just did was slap me in my face. I sent a thank you card to Dr. Ford, letting her know that I appreciated her courage because I was silenced and it has affected me for my entire life. Just like you feel offended when people who have not been cheated on try to tell you how to feel and what to do, well Ann, you are so fucking wrong about this. Just so wrong. I will acknowledge that there are mentally ill women/men out there who would accuse people wrongly but Ann, let me tell you from the bottom of my aching heart, I believe her. She had nothing to gain and nobody put her up to this. She ruined her life and forever altered the lives of her family who are being threatened with death. How is that fair? I doubt it is a Democrat threatening them. It's more than likely one of Trumps Nazi white supremacist followers who threatened Dr. Ford and her famiyl. Now they get to live in fear while the rest of us watch in disbelief as the man, who is so clearly biased in his professional life, makes a mockery of our highest court. Kavanaugh's wife was behind him. Did you look at her face? She knows what kind of man he is and what his anger looks like. So, good luck to all the young women in your life Ann because if you've made your views known like you did here, I suspect none of those young women will feel safe to tell you squat. After all, you've already told them you think they are lying.
Oh and one more thing. I had an uncle who spent his entire career as a carpenter working at the local private Catholic prep school fixing things. Every single weekend those boys would drink and destroy the school property, walls, doors, etc. My uncle worked all week, every day, through New England winters fixing things those spoiled brats broke.
BeachGirl,
DeleteI'm sorry Ann's words cut so deeply. I suspect you're not the only one offended (I certainly was). I was tempted to not post them but I really try hard to not censor on this site (except for those damn spellcasters and hackers, who drive me NUTS). What's more, I don't think anything Ann said is different than what so many of us hear elsewhere. This is still so raw and it was so painful to see a credible witness testimony dismissed without genuine consideration. It's shameful that sexual assault has become a partisan issue. What was laid bare was the fact that women have a ways to go before we're treated like equal, valuable members of society.
I didn’t mean to offend anyone! I guess on this site I cannot have my own opinion on a recent political issue because I have not experienced Sexual assault. I am sorry for those of you who have. I have experienced emotional and verbal abuse for the past 20+ years. My husband called me a CUNT, a Stupid Retard and spat in my face many times among other things. Does that count for anything? Does my opinion matter now?
ReplyDeleteI am not incorrect or misguided - I merely have my own opinion.
I am all for women’s rights and women coming forward if any assault happens to them. I have FOUR daughters-I have taught them to be careful and to be strong and in shape and be aware of their surroundings and not trust anyone. And to tell me or someone if anything like that ever happened. I am all about women being equal in all aspects of our society. I never said anything close to what you are implying. I am all about women power and kicking ass and taking names. I have a degree in History - my hero is Susan B. Anthony and the suffragettes - who all endured all kinds of abuse but didn’t let that stop them!
I never said that women should stay silent. I never said that!! Or anything that implied that! I applauded Bill Clinton’s accusers for coming forward - there were like 19 of them. Who rallied around those women? Who sent them thank you notes? Who wanted to hug them? Where was their Supreme Court Hearing to tell their stories?
All I did was disagree. I don’t believe it is right to ruin someone else’s life and make a mockery of such an important issue like Sexual Assault for political gain.
This is not an all inclusive site for women - you don’t include women who have their own opinion that differs from yours.
Reminds me of my husband and how I want a lawyer for mediation but he doesn’t want me to have one. I have a different opinion than him and he doesn’t like it so I have to endure all his crap because I have my own voice. Finally! I have to be told I am difficult and I am hurting the kids and I won’t cooperate and I won’t negotiate - all because I decided I want a lawyer.
I won’t bother you all again on this site. I can see I am not welcome anymore. Such a warm and fuzzy feeling.
Ann
DeleteYou didn’t bother us on this site but your opinion is pretty much the reason why those of us that have had sexual assault and or sexual harassment are not willing to speak out and because Dr. Ford was willing to tell her story, her life is forever changed and yet the one she remembered being a part of her story has his career and he’s in the clear because no one was willing to say that she/he remembered that Bret was a mean drunk! My biological father was a mean drunk! He terrified my mother for 12 years before she left him! That said, he over came his alcoholic years and raised my step siblings with his kind heart! I’m sorry you feel unwelcome however, I think because you have no first hand knowledge, thankfully, of how this makes a girl feel that has, you can’t actually understand our feelings. Elle could have silenced you by not posting your opinion but she understands that we all have a right to our opinion even the OW! I’m hoping that you can at least try to understand that those of us that heard Dr. Ford speaking was also speaking for a silent minority’s pain! I’m sending her a thank you card for bravery and I’m sending you hugs because I value your opinion even if it differs from everything I feel myself!
Ann, Whether or not you continue to post on this site or not is, of course, up to you. And I'm sorry for all the abuse you've suffered from your husband. As you know, the women on this site were incredibly helpful and supportive of you. At no point did we doubt your version of events.
DeleteAnd that's essentially what we're asking of you now. Women who've been sexually assaulted were inspired by the courage they saw in Dr. Ford. And they were devastated by her testimony making no difference whatsoever. Your response felt unnecessary and insensitive. As Theresa writes above, yes you're entitled to have an opinion. You're even entitled to express that opinion (though not necessarily on this site. I do retain the right to moderate comments. In your case, I let this one through). But that doesn't mean that expressing your opinion is the right, kind thing to do.
Ann
DeletePlease reconsider coming here. What you have endured and continue to endure because of your husband is a disgrace. (Yours sounds like mine with his control). Thinking of you and sending hugs
Gabby xo
Beach girl—- Bravo bravo bravo!!! I’m with you 100%. I stand by and validate every word you said and every feeling you’ve expressed. YES if you haven’t experienced sexual assault the STFU!!! You don’t know what you’re talking about. Thank you for saying what u was and have been to scared to say to bullies like Ann!!
ReplyDeleteOkay everyone, let's bring this down a notch or seven. I get that this is a highly incendiary topic (though I didn't necessarily think it would be on this site. Lesson learned). But I don't think Ann was intending to "bully". Let's give her the benefit of the doubt.
DeleteWowza.
ReplyDeleteBeen away from this site for a bit. Got intense. Lots to think about. A couple quick things:
1. Bought the book. Love the book. Bookmarked the Amazon site so I can "click" daily.
2. Betrayal threw me for the biggest loop of my life. Really made me re-examine everything. I still have a lot of Qs about me and my H and where we go from here. But I do know this: I am a doggone amazing wife, a loved and loving
mother/daughter/sister, a devout Catholic, and an unapologetic feminist. Thank you thank you thank you Elle for creating this space to learn, grow, and be heard/healed. I owe a debt of gratitude to every warrior here -- thank you all for sharing your stories.
xoxoxo Sal
Hey Sal,
DeleteThank-you so much. I LOVE hearing that people love the book (all the while wishing it never had to be written). And it's working. The Amazon algorithm is taking notice!! So thank-you for that too.
And finally, yes you are ALL those things (and probably more). So glad you know that.
Betrayal threw me for a complete loop too. My life is different than it would have been, in many many good ways. So...there's that.
Yeah, I’m a bully. Are you serious?
ReplyDeleteEnjoy your secret sisterhood -
where you are only welcome If you have experienced sexual assault. If you haven’t - shut the fuck up because your opinion doesn’t matter! I don’t matter - the Ann that you have been helping for the past few months.
Way to include everyone!
I want no part of this type of secret sisterhood.
Thanks for alienating one of your own. I guess that is the point of this site. Good job Elle.
I will never visit this site again.
Sorry to hear it Ann. I hope you continue to stand firm in dealing with your ex. I am so sorry for how hard this has all been for you. He sounds truly toxic.
DeleteAnn—options are like noses. Everybody has one. We are stating FACTS about our own sexual abuse experiences. We believe and relate to Dr Ford. We KNIW why she just came forward. I’m sorry you feel so hurt. And I’m sorry to but our facts trump any opinion. Given our stories you may want to consider that maybe just maybe your dear daughters may have experienced what so many of us have experienced and simply haven’t told you.
ReplyDeleteWhen Clinton, yes a dog equal to Brett K, happened there was no Supreme Court hearing and he was IMPEACHED! There was no national stage for this stuff. I was appalled at the women’s treatment. And those affairs were completely consensual. Those women were agreeing participants. We were not. dr Ford was not. Big difference and you are conflating the issues.
One thing about opinions Ann is when you state one someone will disagree. Yes your experience with your cheater husband was awful. He treated you horribly. Yes he was abusive. He abused you and you’ve spoken up HERE where it’s safe. How would you like to go in a national stage and tell your experience and have others judge you about your abusive relationship with him and have it denied and judged that you somehow asked for that abuse?
Maybe just think about it as a woman and take our stories that support women like Dr Ford as being true. As true as the abuse that happened to you as truth.
TH,
DeleteI didn't want to get into all the Clinton stuff but you put it well. He's hardly the poster boy for good behaviour. What I continue to object to is his wife being asked about and judged for his actions.
Trying Hard, thanks for speaking up about the whole Bill thing. It was disgusting then and equally disgusting now. It is a different time for sure and had we had the "Me Too" movement back then I suspect he and others would have suffered worse. I also hate when Hillary is asked how she felt about his behavior because nobody asks Melania how she feels about her blatantly cheating spouse. Why does she stay with him? It is none of our flipping business. Opinions are personal but facts are facts and it is clear that people can find their own "alternative facts" regarding the whole Kavanaugh affair at FX News to name one. I spoke up about the Bill/Hillary/Monica thing way back when but kept my secret. Whoever could not see the power imbalance between Bill and Monica was blind. He was wrong and she was punished for years. She is still being punished for being taken advantage of by Bill. Just wrong but just goes to show that victims like Dr. Ford suffer long term while perps go on with their lives. Sucks being female at times.
DeleteI'm sorry. I am on Ann's side with this even though I can see both side. The woman my husband had an affair with told people that he had raped her, that he coerced her into leaving her fiance to be with him. This disgusting woman planned everything out with the help of her friends and then they all played victim. But these women have to live with what they did.
ReplyDeleteI do believe a lot of the women who came out in the news have been assaulted. I just don't believe Dr. Ford. And that is my opinion. I do not like Kavanaugh or Trump. I think they are disgusting men. But Ann had the right to her opinion on here and because it didn't match word for word on what everyone else thought about it she was attacked on here. I came to this site for getting over the affair and truthfully this has made me not want to come back.
Anonymous, I'm sorry this experience has turned you off this site. The women here are incredibly supportive and compassionate. Ann's comments were incendiary and unnecessary and clearly ignited a firestorm.
DeleteI don't think it matters whether you personally believe Dr. Ford or not. I can understand why your experience has led you to be skeptical. However, I maintain that there are times when our "opinion" doesn't need to be expressed when it flies in the face of another person's lived experience.
LADIES, being a warrior of the 60's I burned my bra and took all the shit men threw at me, challenged me, I did so you could have it better than me. There are all types of feminist, ladies and this has evolved over time. I have been a feminist for a long long time but my feminist attitude is the idea that women should be considered, represented, and treated equally, with equal access to make their own decisions, with the opportunity to create their own lives and make their own choices. What got me Elle was the sharpness of your post to another fellow warrior. What you always say Elle, is when you stop being open you stop learning. I have to say I'm really disappointed in all this. We should be united, that is the only way to move forward. This is just so astounding to me. I'm speechless and sad. I just thought we could talk with respect. I wasn't offended by Ann's post but read it and still have my own boundaries which are not effected in a negative way by her comments. We all come from a different place. I'm really disillusioned. As you said Elle, this is your site, your baby and you can do whatever you want with it. I respect that as well.
DeleteI’ve hesitated to comment because this is an issue that’s painful and emotional. I’m not a survivor of either sexual assault or sexual abuse so I don’t have a clue how the recent hearings are impacting those who are. I can only try to understand how Ann’s post would feel to those who have been personally affected.
DeleteI’m mostly saddened by what I saw in response to her post. I think it’s fair to ask anyone here to consider how a strongly stated opinion would affect others. I think it’s fair to ask someone to look at statistics and educate themselves. What I don’t think is fair is to resort to name calling or assumptions on political parties. I think we can all agree that we have differences of opinions on a lot of issues. It’s part of what makes this site so amazing. I have broad beliefs that don’t necessarily line up in one political party or another but I do my best to keep an open mind. I think we can disagree and still try to be kind to one another.
Elle—i completely agree. We are all sorely aware of how society judges US as the victims of infidelity. And lumping Bills willing participants and even those who lie about assault is conflating the issue of both sexual harassment and sexual abuse.
ReplyDeleteI told my story here in a safe place. Those who’ve been there understand it and believe it. I believe Dr Ford. I’m her story too. I get it
Hillary is bearing the burden of her husbands abuse of her. It will be part of her legacy till the day she dies. It will be an asterisk beside her name in history books. Do i feel the need to “hug” those willing oarticipants we all call affair partners or OW and worse (myself included). Oh. Hell. No.
Just my subjective opinion and you can delete it if you like. And I’m still following and supporting you and even people like Ann whom i also agree sounds like she is in a toxic relationship.
Peace out ✌️ that is all
Re Once a cheater, always a cheater.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with that blanket statement.
While it's true for some cheaters, the ones who have cheated for years, or never really took their marriage vows seriously, or have an emotional/psychological "reason" of their own for being a serial cheater, yes I believe it applies to them.
A cheater who, once faced with the truth of what they are about to lose, able to see the destruction the affair caused for their spouse & family, is finally able to see the AP as a person willing to ruin a family for their own pleasure, one who sees the AP in the light of day with faults they never showed yet, one who can give up the AP instantly or quickly, one who is willing to do whatever it takes to save their marriage, odds are high this might be their only affair.
I say "might" because, as we all know, it takes hard work from both H & W. For a long time. From my personal experience, for forever.
We've been working hard on our marriage since 1981, when DD hit after 19 years & 3 kids. Some days I want to give up & he supports me. Some days he gets tired of the hard work, too, & I support him. We've had many obstacles to overcome along the way. But I must say we have had more good years than bad. We're aiming toward celebrating our 57th anniversary soon.
If only making & keeping a happy marriage was as easy as falling in love!
Carol, the First
(sorry I had to post as anonymous but my computer wouldn't cooperate!)
Carol the First,
Delete57 years. That's incredible. I don't know a single longtime marriage, marked by betrayal or not, that hasn't had a whole lot of struggle and mutual support and basically just holding on by fingernails to raise kids and stay together. That's...marriage. Betrayal is a grenade, for sure. But it might also be part of the glue that's helped you each fight like hell for so long. Not the betrayal itself, of course, but the recognition that you could have walked away and chose not to.
Carol the First,
DeleteCongratulations on your long marriage and demonstrating that some of us will make it because our spouses did wake up and see what they were about to lose. You are my new hero. Life is never easy but when our spouses make it even harder it is on them to see our worth as well as us seeing our own worth. I am grateful that my husband, like yours, saw what was at stake and stepped up big time. I am grateful that he is very much looking like the man he always wanted to be. Thanks for checking in and speaking up. WE need role models like you.
Elle & Beach Girl,
ReplyDeleteThank you both for your kind words, Dear Sisters!
Carol the First
Beach girl—it was an absolute abuse of power and he lied. This was 30 years ago and he was punished. I wish he would own up to the fact that he did abuse his power. But alas we are all too familiar that he won’t.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is also not denied that she was willing and encouraging. I’m not arguing either way. I have option where Monica is concerned. But to compare Monica to Dr Ford only conflates the issue. And beside the fact we are done dealing with the Clintons on the political stage. Brett is the one front and center and yet he’s in tremendous power now. So what have we really learned from the Clinton debacle? Nothing i say. Men who act bad all they have to do is deny deny deny and they are off scot free it seems.
My original comment was to express my experience and how it related to Dr Ford. No i have no prof she’s lying or not lying. But her story is very familiar. And obviously not only to me.
Hugs Beachgirl
When Brett spoke I was triggered, as the anger was 100% gaslighting. You don’t.get.that.angry.otherwise. At the end of the day I really hope Brett becomes a better person regardless if he believes he did it or not. I sunk when he referenced his young daughter praying for DR Ford. Now that pissed me off!!!! That statement and behavior communicated he truly has no empathy. It’s like, let’s judge and pray for them cause they are wrong. That’s not Supreme Court material. The only 2 that really know what happened are Brett and Dr Ford. But I also understand one revising their truth. It’s a clouded, complicated situation that really depressed me for days. I found myself angry with my H over it!
ReplyDeleteI’ve been harassed in the workplace and was put in a very difficult situation with my boss. He pressed me to go forward with the sexual harassment charge. He then confronted the harasser and said my name instead of going to HR as his procedures directed him. The guy cornered me in my office over it and it was a very scary situation for a 24 yr old dealing with a 50 year old. It was 1993 and IBM was clueless as how to handle this shit. I could of gotten so many fired over it if I pressed it. Ultimately I wanted him to stop his shitty behavior to women, cause he treated many like this. There comes a time when you step forward not for yourself but rather to make things better for others. I was forced to come forward only to be made a mockery of and the guy and my boss retained their jobs.
I understand that we all come to this discussion with our own perspectives made up with many factors. Saying that though just as no one can really understand what it feels like to be betrayed by someone they cannot understand what it is like to be either sexually assaulted or harassed. All of our betrayals are different just as all of our other experiences are different. What I find even in this corner of our world on this post is how similar our experiences are and how they made us feel.
ReplyDeleteI also understand there are two sides to every story and two perspectives. FBI background checks are not perfect or the end all be all. Especially when most often it is like a job reference where the people to be contacted are provided. I have never met one person trying to secure a high level position who provides anyone that would be less than favorable while speaking about them. Who doesn't want to put their best foot forward. Also there is no way someone can be coached to pass a lie detector test. Those are just a few items.
I related to those who have been outraged by this entire process. And again what stuck with me is how similar the feelings are to the feelings of betrayal. The comments made by "leaders" of our government have been appalling to me. I personally feel let down. I do believe Dr. Ford on so many levels. I also know if I were to not even factor that into his character I still do not think he is fit based on his demeanor and alcohol history. The way he spoke to women on the committee and his reactions do not merit an appointment to the highest court in our land for lifetime. One last issue I had was he was enraged politically while speaking. I believe he is too polarized to be in this position.
I understand some will disagree with me. These are just my feelings, thoughts, observations, and experiences. And for me the parallels scream at me. That is why I discussed it here on this post.
As far as Bill Clinton I agree with Beach Girl. I think today things might have been slightly different. I also feel the same that Hillary has been mistreated about all of his behavior. And based on our current President there is no room to talk about any behavior and treatment of women. It is an interesting study of the electorate and how they view the president.
Yikes. When people show you who they are believe them. Passive or aggressively.
ReplyDeleteAnon--Ann didn't leave. She posted a comment on the most recent blog post Elle wrote with regards to Hysterical Bonding. I agree she adds a lot to the conversation. I'm glad she rethought her choice to leave.
ReplyDeleteI believe that's a different Ann. There are a few who post here.
DeleteOh my gosh, yes. Different ann. I use all lower case letters always, if that helps. It is a bit confusing because Ann had a cheating pilot husband and the marriage is ending. I (ann) had a cheating pilot husband and I rebuilt a new marriage with him with all your help. It seems our names and the occupations of our husbands may be all we have in common. I love this supportive, feminist space, and I loved elle's original post and all the support expressed for dr. Ford and all other victims of sexual assault and misconduct (myself included). Boundaries can be painful, but I think that's what this was. Some things just must be stood up against, even when you're trying to treat someone with love and acceptance. Good job to all who did. Sorry I missed the chance!
DeleteI am a huge fan of Terry Real. He has a great discussion about how the political and social is impacting our private lives. Like so many women I know, the Trump and Kavanaugh thing is shifting how they look at the dynamics in their own relationships with men. For those of you who have hard time understanding this perspective, it is worth listening [Ann, I hope you listen. I think it might become clearer where so many of us are coming from.] https://www.susancoleman.global/episodes/2018/9/28/ep-034-terry-real-building-peace-from-the-intimate-to-the-global?fbclid=IwAR2LT_CwEvz5zQTJsf080cffWQblEJX6WWkD8MossEVyxwIIzwhV418kpSU
ReplyDeleteMBS thanks for sharing this amazing article. I need to go find this author and read some of his books. Just wow. Thank you thank you
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