Monday, November 27, 2017

Where did you learn to live on crumbs?

I was driving to my father's home the other day, with Esther Perel's Where Do We Begin on podcast. This episode focused on a gay couple, one partner had suffered an abusive childhood and considered himself a sex addict. Even in the wake of this partner's infidelity, the other partner wanted to learn from it and the two had recently married.
Perel spent considerable time encouraging the partner who'd experienced childhood abuse to mine his past, to really explore its connection to his difficulty accepting comfort from his new husband.
The husband, who longed to offer comfort to his traumatized partner, noted the other's "drama" and prided himself on being low-maintenance. "I don't need much," he said.
Which is when Perel said the words that, literally, made me stop the tape and take big gulps of oxygen.
Where did you learn to live on crumbs?
I've made no secret of my own childhood dysfunction. I've often shared how my mother's alcoholism created much shame in me and how my father's reliance on me turned me into a parent for him and led me to all variety of boy-men who lacked both the maturity and the emotional bandwidth for healthy relationships. They brought drama. I brought low maintenance.
But never had I heard what I learned from my childhood, and what I continued to allow, referred to as clearly and succinctly as "crumbs".
I'm asking you: Where did you learn to live on crumbs?
So many of us did, didn't we? So many of us, even putting aside the infidelity (that most of us didn't know about...until we did), overlooked his long hours at the office (he's working hard for his family), his TV watching (he deserves to relax after a long day/week), his hanging with the guys (he needs his friends), while we took on the bulk of the housework, the childcare, the care of parents, the day-in/day-out details that keep a house running. And I'm not saying that men don't work hard, deserve to relax, need friends with whom to have fun. But how often did we allow those things to our husbands while denying them to ourselves?
And how often did we accept behaviour in our husbands that wasn't ultimately healthy for us or for our family?
I barely noticed that I was accepting crumbs. I knew I felt angry a lot. I knew that when my husband would come up behind me to wrap his arms around me while I was at the sink doing dishes, I had to stop myself from jamming my elbow in his ribs. I didn't need a hug, I needed help with the god-damn dishes. Did I say that? Of course not. I chastised myself for not being more satisfied with what I had.
StillStanding1 did a great job with her recent post about the rage so many of us feel post-betrayal. But I want to extend that backward. How many of us felt it, on some level, before we learned about our partner's betrayal? How many of us are doubly (triply? quadruply?) angry about the betrayal because not only did he cheat on us but he cheated on us while we were at home doing everything. While we were sacrificing ourselves for the good of our family and barely being noticed for it?
That's a betrayal too, isn't it?
Of course it is. But maybe not in the way you think.
That was a betrayal of ourselves.
That was our acceptance of crumbs.
Where did you learn to live on crumbs?
Maybe it was from parents who expected you to swallow strong feelings and not rock the boat. Maybe it was from teachers who expected girls to be kind and nurturing and take turns and be polite and demure. Maybe it was from a culture that still recoils from angry women, no matter that we have plenty to be angry about.
Wherever it was, it's time for a new lesson.
It's time to reconsider what we've been willing to settle for and set out new terms for ourselves. No more crumbs. Let's ask for exactly what we want. If we've decided to stay in our marriage and rebuild, then there's no better time to make it abundantly clear to our spouse that the only way we can continue is if our needs and wants are acknowledged and respected. It's time to make some demands of our own – beginning with what every betrayed wife should demand (total transparency, access to his accounts/computers/etc), but including everything that we need to make our marriage more equitable and, ultimately, healthier for both.
Maybe you need him home more often, maybe you need him to deal with his toxic family instead of you doing that job. Maybe you need him to talk to you rather than turning on Netflix. Maybe you need help with childcare on weekends rather than him teeing off for 18 holes. Whatever it is, we need to ask for it. Settling for crumbs starves us emotionally.

57 comments:

  1. Again...Wow, Elle. I find myself nodding my head, shouting at the computer "yes...why am I accepting crumbs?" This past weekend was good - family time, thankful, relaxing - but I found myself this morning as we jump back into the routine and the holidays and some triggers thinking of how I'm just over it all. How I don't want to pull away yet I wanted to say "who the F*** cares? Why am I caring so much more than him, or as it seems to me?" But your post really boiled it down for me and what I needed to hear...that it is okay to "stop accepting the crumbs." Hugs!

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    1. Yeah, that phrase really distilled it for me too. My husband and I have come a LONG way. But prior to D-Day, I was absolutely accepting crumbs. And I still do in some relationships -- friendships in which I say "it's okay" when she cancels (again), times when I ignore what I want in favour of pleasing my kids, etc.

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    2. Jules, today I am feeling the EXACT same way. "Why am I caring so much more than him?" If you or Elle have the time, can you describe what "stop accepting crumbs" actually looks like? How is that accomplished? It might sound elementary to some, but I don't know how to start.

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    3. Probably dying I thing crumbs may look different and come in all forms combined that with stopping to listen to your inner voice and self care ... me time. Not living on crumbs is my voice to convey what I'm ok with what I'm not vs before when I let him continually do everything described above in two folds vs moderation as my inner voice was screaming what about me? And I silenced it vs nurturing it. Right not for me not settling for crumbs is boundaries, my exercise and asking and compromising with my husband for help or to communicate my feelings and he listen. It's letting yourself off the hook I used to kill myself and for what?? Perfection is overrated and exhausting and he still cheated anyways. Good enough on the house the dinner and not trying to be super wife and mom.. taking care of me BETTER use of time Elle told me so I'm enough everyday oh yeah and pretty pedicure toes help too so find the time for yourself! I pit so much before me for so long and little by little within reason I'm taking it back and they don't always like it but to bad are going to need to get familiar with it. It's uncomfortable at times and different but doesn't mean it's wrong nope it's just different and change and a little oh hello me ... there you are!? Missed you friend. Hope that makes sense. Take care of you

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  2. Elle and my girl friends, this excellent post pretty much sums up how I was raised, the messages I received (especially from my mother who was married to an alcoholic) and how I suppressed all of my desires for a "life" to support a successful man. Prior to my mother's death when I made comments to her about my husband's trips with male friends or his siblings, his time away from home, his motorcycle riding on weekends, etc, I heard, "At least he is a good father and husband. He doesn't drink and he brings home a good paycheck. Be grateful for what you have." I know that came from the challenges she had raising us while suffering my father's addiction along with the Catholic guilt trips. We have such a good balance in life now and he does at least if not more than his share around here. He offers and accepts my requests for help. He never complains and says his job is to keep me happy. (LOL) I think of all the years I held resentment and anger for exactly the things you described here and about a year ago I decided, "No more". I understand him so much better now. The only crumbs I will accept now are those at the bottom of my bag of salt and vinegar chips, my only ongoing addiction in life. Yummy. I owe you all so much and I am grateful for each and every post. I so wish we could meet up somewhere wearing the same hat so we would know each other. In my heart and mind I see us just bathing in acceptance and hope for better days. Oh, I actually opened this door for this before I knew about my husbands addiction when I decided to continue hosting our Christmas Eve family event but took orders for Thai take out food. No more dishes, no more fuss. I get to eat and enjoy myself. Bring cookies if you want but it is take-out only cause the "I can't eat this or that shit made me a f-ing maniac!"

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  3. Talk about a punch in the gut. This … right here … oh how I wish I could share this with my H and he’d understand it.

    I think I’ll just shut my office door and have myself a good cry.

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  4. Oh, boy. Yep. This is me. Where did I learn it? I guess just from being the youngest of a family of super strong and independent people. Grandparents survived the Great Depression. The Dust Bowl. The message was buck up and do what's right regardless of how you feel. Toughen up. Make it through. I was a sensitive child. My much older sister and my parents frequently rolled their eyes at my "outbursts" and sensitivities. My behavior was completely age appropriate, but I internalized the message that I should be different. I should be less needy. I did a good job of that as I grew up! I needed almost nothing from anybody (except I did). My H had grown so "grumpy" and distant, but "push through" I told myself. I have obligations. I can't waste time being mad about what he's not doing (except I did). I had learned not to argue with someone about the time or attention they were willing to give you. That was their decision. You just keep doing the right thing. I guess if my H had had my upbringing/attitude we would have stayed unhappily married but faithful partners. I think, if I tell the truth, that's what I thought a good marriage was. Two people keeping a promise despite their feelings. I was fine with those crumbs. Looks like the mature marriages I knew. There is no divorce in my family for generations (or his either), but scores of dysfunctional partnerships. Good or bad, I see it differently now. I live differently. My feelings matter. I'm committed to ME. I hope my H comes along with me, but I'm not accepting crumbs with a spouse who's not keeping his promises. If you think about it, the fidelity promise is only one of the promises we made. They are all about not accepting crumbs from each other. I still wonder how to navigate this new attitude and put it into practice. I'm making it up as I go, and sometimes I still get it wrong.

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    1. This really resonates. Well put, Ann.

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  5. I’m no longer willing to accept crumbs either and my h has a long way to go to get us through this mess. 10 years ago he made a life changing career to be a traveling engineer. The plan was for us to travel together on his trips. I went for the year long adventure in a different city and I missed my hobby and so I began to live in the lake house. We survived that. The next job is 3 hours from our lake house and grand children. The plan was to buy the house and renovate and then I would move to the house with him and that’s when he screwed up because he chose to have an affair. This was in the spring of 2011. He tried desperately to end the affair but his cow was in love with him and refused to allow him to end the affair until and unless he told me about her. When he refused to talk to her or meet her that’s when she blew up my world. October 2014...this has been the hardest season of our marriage. He’s doing so much to try to make it up to me and last year was so much better than the last two previous years! This said, he’s still a traveling engineer and this is causing a strain on our marriage with him across the country and me having to stay here taking care of my mother. I find I’m feeling resentment but I agreed to get through the end of this year and he’s agreed that somehow I will travel with him as the project progresses. We’ll see but that said I feel so obligated to the care of my mother. As her health declined last year and she has returned to life alone, I’m still second guessing my decisions for her health care. I’m looking for a nursing home. Guilt trip for me because I know she doesn’t want to be in one. I’m struggling this first week of his travels but I’m so much stronger now. This post is so much what I was used to! No longer will I settle for crumbs!

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    1. Oh Theresa how I feel for you. I have no idea what your relationship is with your mother or how her finances look but I know my husband's addiction soared and my marriage suffered because my MIL was a royal pain in the ass and demanded so much of him/us until I finally took over her care and tried to run interference between them so he could work. I did not know about his porn/prostitutes then but in hind sight I think if he had not felt so damn guilty about hiring someone to stay with her and I was so trusting of "doing the right thing" I would have just told her point blank that we only had a certain amount of energy and that we needed to get away together for our marriage. My best friend encouraged me to do that but I did not listen. Honey, as hard as it is, you need to put yourself first because you are fighting for your life. I wish I learned that lesson long ago. I've told my kids that if I ever needed extra care to just put me somewhere clean and safe. I'm sure I could find someone to annoy that isn't related to me.

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    2. Beach Girl
      My mother has dug herself into a financial mess and I’ve been slowly getting her out of debt. 5 years ago I learned that she had a 10,000$ debt to QVC. She had to get a 20,000$ loan to replace her windows that were falling out. She is halfway through that but meanwhile last February her heart almost stopped she has a pacemaker and insists on living in her own house. I’m doing the best I can but as her health continues to decline, she has dementia, kidney damage, diabetes out of control, and I was told that until I had power of attorney she had the right to make her own choices. I finally got the power of attorney and I intend to do the best I can to keep her safe and in her own home until I can’t and then I will have found her next place and I’m pretty sure that she’s not going to move into our home. This house is too small and I’m to old to be able to get her in and out to her many dr appointments. I feel guilty but because I’m a realist, I know my limitations. Both with her and the shitfest my h created! Thanks for your thoughts! It’s very helpful! Hugs!

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  6. Elle, truly crumbs are a problem. Like Hansel and Gretel, I think the scarcity of crumbs leaves you lost as a person. This is exactly what I found out about myself in the 6 weeks I soul searched when I suspected the affairs. I lived with a few crumbs for 17 years!

    We got married and with me being almost 30 we jumped into parenthood. We sold my townhouse, purchased a house and had three kids. A few years later we built a home and added a dog to the mix. Every step of the way he was on board with the addition or adventure BUT he fought back about his time with the guys, his sports...his games. I was asking him to pull back on dart league, bowling league, baseball, wrestling coaching, soccer coaching, reffing, online computer games. I didn’t ask him to quit any of it, but rather free up some time so that I wasn’t primary breadwinner and primary doer of it ALL. I did absolutely everything right down to car maintenance. I argued with him from the get go and it didn’t help him understand his role of being a husband or father. He would look me straight in the eye and say “why do I constantly need to give up things?” Are you for real???? I would think of all I gave up and of myself. I was lost as a person. I was a mom and a wife but certainly not a person with interests and hobbies of my own anymore. He was a non participant year after year. I decided at year 7 to quit arguing and asking for the help. I sucked it up and did it all, which was a huge mistake. I didn’t want to be angry and to continue to focus on it. Little did I know, it wasn’t going away... I was just burying it and opening myself up to resentment. I didn’t feel it tho or know it was happening.

    My soul searching nearing almost 6 weeks and Valentine’s Day, led me to draft a love letter to him. I became the woman with the elbow at the sink daily. “Get away from me because you do nothing for me” - were my daily thoughts. I pushed and pushed him away at the sink. After about five drafts, I left the love letter on his side of the bed on February 13th. He arrived home to find it and dress for our evening date. He came downstairs and somewhat smiled but never said a word. I was crushed, I poured my heart into writing it for days and he didn’t acknowledge it at all. We never did get to our date due to an ER visit to the hospital, so my love letter never got talked about.

    The emotional affairs started in December and by Valentine’s Day he was dismissive of me totally. I had soul searched, dug in and as usual was doing everything possible to make his life easy as well as try to get to the bottom of my issues that were attributing to our issues. That was me - accommodating. I created a wonderful home and raised the kids and for years just sucked it up to avoid arguments. I had crumbs and was beyond angry but hadn’t noticed the resentment.
    I figured it out on my own with many weeks of pain prior to Dday. At no time did he try to figure it out. He flat out gave up on US and looked onward. Days after Dday he apologized for giving up. From Valentine’s Day until Dday was an additional 8 weeks. I think back to how many days I sat alone with my thoughts and him not willing to talk. Sigh.

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    1. You weren't even surviving on crumbs, more like fumes. You were a single parent completely. How men can't see what we give up is beyond me... I am so sorry you are going through this. Hugs

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    2. Twins Twice - thank you. It sounds like you can relate. I’m pulling out of this mode slowly and he’s being more responsive to my overload. I just want others to understand my story to prevent them from being the woman at the sink for 17 years. I had no idea how I was selling myself short. The affair was the most painful thing but it did bring to light that MY needs matter just as much as his.

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  7. I had that same reaction to that part of the podcast too. Wow, that was a heavy moment.
    People who need alot of attention and care, often end up finding partners who are willing to make themselves small to look after them. I don't think it was any great trauma that made me lose my sense of healthy entitlement. I am just the 3rd daughter in a family of 4 girls. Other people in the house dominated--my father, my older sister. My mother was a classic codependent caretaker so she was drawn to drama and caring for the most unstable members of the family. I was the most sensible and industrious of the kids so I didn't require a whole lot of attention. Took care of myself and made lots of room for the others' needs. I didn't demand too much because I was outnumbered and learned to look after myself. Speaking up and being heard was difficult in my family. Too much competition. But learning to do that now--Sticking to my guns about how I feel and expect to be treated and not backing down from what it will take for me to stay married--and it has paid off immensely.

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  8. Wow. I never realized I was accepting crumbs well before my marriage. I suppose it goes back to growing up in a military family. My parents were loving but that lifestyle instilled a mindset of being obedient and tough at the same time. Being a “good girl” was important because God forbid you do something to embarrass your dad. You always knew that Dad’s career came first when it came to moving and you moved a lot. Everyone knew the moving could be difficult but there was no sense in being upset because every other military family was doing it too. I suppose this I when I started i equate showing too much emotion with weakness. And so I learned it was better to just keep it to myself. When I was started dating it seems I made one crappy choice after another. And when every person you get involved with cheats or is emotionally abusive you start to think it’s you. So you accept the behavior and just think that’s how it’s supposed to be. When I met my husband, it finally felt like someone had chosen me. And for once, I was worth sticking around for. So I tolerated it when things were not great or when he was selfish. Because even if he was being an asshole, “at least he wasn’t cheating”. Until he did.
    His infidelity has changed me in so many ways. I speak up when I’m hurting. I say it when I just need time alone. I’m learning that saying what I want isn’t being selfish or inconsiderate. My self esteem, which wasn’t great, took a huge hit when I discovered his infidelity and while I know intellectually that it wasn’t about me, I still struggle with it. I tend to focus more on my flaws than on my positive traits. I’m still a work in progress.

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  9. My big excuse on accepting crumbs? I was STRONG. My dad told me that, my friends told me that. my profession is male dominated and I was constantly told I was strong. I believed it.
    My first alcoholic husband? I can deal with this, I'm strong--being underpaid in my job? Unfair, I knew, but I'm strong and smart and can live on this, no problem.

    My current H? often Withdrawn and always an underachiever--I don't need much attention and I sure as hell don't need the money.
    I also, feel like it's too much trouble to fight sometimes and just think I'll deal with it later. It doesn't need to get hashed out right now because I can deal with ANYTHING. UGH. I've come so far--i really have and yet, have so far to go.

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  10. I am in my living room watching TV at 2:30 in the morning. Again. Alone in my recliner where I sleep a few hours a day. I have lived on crumbs my entire life. My childhood was extremely abusive..I learned early to be quiet, don't draw attention and maybe I can get through the day without any pain..just keep everyone happy and be happy no matter what..I allowed my husband to use me as a doormat..he thought he could just cheat and lie and mistreat me forever I guess and I would just continue to exist as part of the furniture till he found my replacement or I died..I just decided one day I was done with it. I had no idea what he had really been doing..I just can't reconcile this stuff in my head but what really seems to hurt is I gave up so much of me and 23 years of my life..I swallowed my feelings my needs my pride because I thought well at least he loves me right? He doesn't act like he does, actually he kinda seems like he hates me..but he says he loves me and he doesn't beat me with his fist so it's okay right? He loved me alright..and all of my friends and a few family members too..I am just so sad..where did I go? Where did the years go? I look in the mirror now and I see this old pale skinny woman looking back at me..I don't know who she is..

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    1. Oh I can relate. I withered down to 100 pounds after Dday. You feel stuck and really don’t know who you are. Walking and listening to music helped me. The exercise made me thirsty and hungry. It’s easy to become zombie-like and live in a blurr and for the most part that is part of the grieving process, but there comes a time to rise up out of the recliner and sign up for a class, setup a date with a friend or plan out a trip or something in the future. You need to look forward to something instead of looking back. You need to start living for yourself and if the H trails behind great. Let him see you start to thrive. Let yourself see you thrive. Dress for the day like you are going places. Sounds silly but it will motivate you to find yourself. Help others. I helped another woman that List her husband to ALS one day. I cleaned her entire house and yard to winterize and the two of us were in tears. She had no idea what I was going through but it took my mind off my issues and made me feel helpful instead of the helpless person I became after Dday. You got this Aye Fam! Start today just to identify one thing to move on for a better you.

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  11. Having recently received another shock at my husband's continued use of inappropriate female friendships as some kind of bolster, and his continued deception I finally realised that I had to draw a firm line. In turn this helped me realise that I'd been like a boiling frog, not realising that the accumulation of lack of respect for and acceptance of requests and boundaries, defensiveness, poor support over triggers and piecemeal deception had amounted to something completely untenable for me. Because these behaviours were not continuous, or consistently bad. Because the deceptions were piecemeal and occasional, I did not notice. Because there were family and work stresses I made allowances, as I always have, I always feel bad for other people. But it's only in the last few weeks since my husband went on the couch that he has finally committed to working through some books and courses that we'd identified as helpful more than 9 months ago. Only now is he consistently keeping in touch, keeping working at improvements and caring actions, communicating, responding to issues, attending counselling, asking questions of himself. He is finally, after 4 years taking this seriously. I see women here, wondering if what their spouses are doing is enough, wondering if they should accept slip ups or defensiveness, or not being told the name of the OW or whatever. I would say, listen to yourself, check the problem against your values. Is his defensiveness working against your vow to respect and honour yourself? Is his refusal to tell the truth going against your values of honesty and connection? I know how we end up between a rock and a hard place. I don't want to break up the family for my four kids but I took crumbs for the past few years and it broke me. I needed to do work on myself because the way his inconsistent behaviour made me feel was helpless, inadequate, unloveable, pathetic, stupid - but I needed to stop calling myself those things. Once I learned (through a fab Steven Stosny book – Living and Loving after betrayal) to rate myself, I could not accept those labels, I could not be that person anymore, I’m not that person. But it is hard not to question yourself and make compromises because you want to be caring, understanding, do the best for others. You will get gaslighted and fed enough to make you hope for the best. But in my case and in many here, it’s only when you stop starving yourself from living on crumbs and ask for what you deserve and say what you will no longer tolerate that the betrayer either shapes up or has to ship out. They either stand up and be a person of integrity or let the dark side consume them altogether.

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    1. FOH
      Exactly how I feel. Once I found out about the betrayals, and my h's continued inappropriate female friendships, his unwillingness to be accountable and work on everything, this became the final straw for me - no more accepting his criticism of whatever I did - no more crumbs.
      He let the dark side consume him.
      Hugs
      Gabby xo

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    2. Gabby I am so sorry that your husband chose the dark side, my brother in law did too and now I must see what my husband chooses. I think he wants the light but will he be capable of facing into everything? The counsellor says it will be a long road. We just can't live like that anymore and if they can't or won't change, we have to get ourselves out of the situation xx

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  12. Yep, that is exactly what I have been feeling for the past 13 years of our marriage, 4 kids later. I gave up everything for him, to make him happy was THE ultimate goal. And I never truly succeeded. It was never enough. And when things weren't done to his specifications, he felt like I didn't care and he wasn't important to him. What the what!?! OH the resentment. and then he has an emotional affair. "We just talked" "nothing happened" um seriously? He confided in her about our marriage and the he wanted to "make a change but he was scared to do it alone" and at one time he drove to her house and tried to kiss her but she said no and just wanted to be friends. but thats just "talking". I want to smash the breadcrumbs in his face. I deserved so much better but constantly focused on all my faults and had everyday guilt trips about how I wasn't a good wife. He has changed since Dday but alot of the same tendencies still occurr. I still don't feel like I can truly talk to him about my feelings. All he does is say sorry. He doesn't even try to hug me. Its so depressing. I feel like he is faking it because he doesn't want to be alone. He just doesn't understand and I don't know how to break the cycle of bread crumbs.

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    1. Twins Twice - why won’t he hug you? If you ask does he turn you down? Sometimes making the first move is hard. It’s hatd to reconnect after betrayal and I’m so there. I think my h tries more than me, but one thing I implemented was a 30 second hug. Kind of silly and it is a long time but it helps with connecting.

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    2. I guess its my fault because in the moment when I need it the most, is typically in the middle of world war III argument.. to which I instigate. What I have tried to make him understand that its SO much easier to be angry and fight than to be vulnerable and be sad because I am afraid that if I let my wall down, then I will lose my crap and never recover... He would hug me if I asked him but I want HIM to initiate it. To know when I need it. Last night I was feeling low and he knew and asked and asked what was wrong, if he did anything and no he didn't. I just had a crap day where anything and everything was a reminder of what happened and I wasn't dealing well. I say on the couch bawling and he still didn't try to hug me. He wasn't being cold or anything just like he didn't know what to do. He doesn't understand that I need to vent and talk and get it out. And he responds to it as "I know, you have told me this many times" I just keep saying Why? why this and why that. He acts bothered or something that its the same old stuff. But yet when hes upset we talk forever about the same crap. He just feels guilty and doesn't want to deal with it. So I hold it in and then blow up at him.

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    3. Twins twice
      Sounds like you have an emotional deficient h somewhat like a lot of us have. They tend to have a difficult time understanding our emotions because of their own guilt that they can’t deal with. I’m sorry but I know how many times we too ran around the same loop. He couldn’t understand why I kept going back to the same place with the same hurt and anger but it was what I needed to process that piece of pain and anger. I’m not sure how many months that part took because as time passes, I find that it’s no longer as important as in the time we were living through it, because today is way more important. I’m sure that’s partly because I’ve had more time to process than you at the place you’re in and that said, my h had to learn how to slow down and allow the process to move forward no matter how slow it was and not to expect a day that it was suddenly just behind us. It’s hard and it takes time! Sending you hope that you too will continue to trudge forward!

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  13. NO hugs? There are just some things that are too simple to do--why they dont do it is a mystery. That is the smallest thing he can do that can go so far. Who's arms are you supposed to fall into if you can't fall into his? The fact that you even want a hug is something he should see as an enormous gift. I am so sorry.

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    1. I know. I feel so alone. Even when I know he cares, he still doesn't give me the emotional support that I need. I need a hug when I am freaking out or losing it. Not when everything is "fine"... I need to see that he is going to love me at my worst because I am certainly loving him through his...

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    2. Twins twice
      Yep just that you are seeing him through his worst and he’s got to learn how to help you through your worst as well! Trust me, we’re still a work in progress!

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  14. Although only 2 days have passed since Elle posed the important question ("Where did you learn to live on crumbs?"), I must have read it 12 times already. There was no experience in my life BEFORE I BECAME A WIFE AND MOTHER where I lived on crumbs. I knew from an early age what I wanted and how I wanted to experience life. I didn't accept substitutes; I didn't settle. I had confidence, and I also had humility. I trusted those closest to me. I allowed myself to be vulnerable and saw that as a strength.

    I married at 25, had my daughter at 27, and my son at 29. My H is 2 years younger than me. We struggled, but not often, in the beginning of our marriage, but I thought since we were newly married and had kids almost immediately that our situation was "normal." My focus was on my children, and my H led me to believe his was, too. We always made time for one another. We even took our kids to their grandparents for the night so we could have some sacred set aside time for just us.

    My story is a long one, as everyone's here is. After almost 20 years of marriage, why did it take my H having an emotional turned sexual affair for 5 years to jolt me into the reality of who he really is and what his morals and values truly are? How am I just now realizing I've been living on crumbs for years? I feel like all the love I gave, all the respect and care I showed, all the sacrifices I made, all the deep emotions I felt and shared... were they all for nothing? How can my H not see that I'm STILL FREAKIN' here working to rebuild our marriage?

    As I stated in a response to another BW, my MC has suggested to my H he make an appointment for individual counseling. The last time she mentioned that was October. He has not acted on her suggestion. Her suggestion to me was to back off a bit and not try so hard b/c he is not receptive to and/or doesn't acknowledge my repair attempts. I've taken her advice. He's just recently noticed. We've had some good days. They aren't enough. I'm trying to be patient. Then I think, he's had six years to work through his shit but I have to be patient? I just found out a little over a year ago, and I'm working on myself while trying to rebuild our marriage...and he's the one who isn't sure what he wants?

    I have given him space while still showing interest and expressing my love for and attraction to him... just in very small amounts and intervals, as my MC suggested. I'm focusing more on myself and less on him.

    I know I can't make him do anything. I know no matter how important him going to counseling for himself is, I can't make the appointment for him. Has anyone been in this situation - your husband refuses individual counseling? I don't think he and I will be able to repair and rebuild if he does not seek counseling. I'm afraid things may improve for a time, but he's likely to relapse and make similar poor choices if he doesn't dig deep and understand himself (and why he thought having an affair was the answer to whatever crisis he was having).

    I plan to not talk about anything of a serious nature (unless he initiates, which is highly unlikely) until after Christmas. If he is still unable to have an open, completely vulnerable conversation with me about our present and future, I will tell him we're separating. I can't keep waiting. I know what I want, and I think it's cruel of him to not be straight up with me. I don't like ultimatums, but I feel I've said and done all I can. What new words and actions are left? He either needs to commit 100% to me and our marriage and family, or he needs to leave and get his shit together... Maybe then he'll decide he's in or out. Maybe I'll decide before he does.

    Where do I find the strength to do what I know I need to do when I truly love my husband and want a true partnership with him, despite what he's done? I want more than crumbs. I am worth more than crumbs.

    Thank you for listening.

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    1. You ARE worth more than crumbs. We all are. Why us women feel the need to sell ourselves short is beyond me. I am so guilty of that. Like you I was a strong independent woman until I began to let things go to not make waves or to see it as simply picking which battles to fight. Which ended up me being submissive and putting myself last in everything. I think that you have given your H every oppurtunity to make a significant change. and he isn't willing. I am going to be blunt. I think he needs to realize that you won't wait forever. He should be the one bending over backwards to show you he is sorry and try to earn back your trust. 5-6 years is a lot of trust to gain back on your part and he isn't being fair. sometimes absence makes people realize what they are missing. If he isn't willing to fight for you then maybe its time to walk away. So sorry you are going through this. Hugs.

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    2. Jo, I can so relate to what you have experienced and been through. Is there something else that you want him to do besides therapy? Have you been back to the therapist since then? Have you brought it up to him? For us if there is something I want or expect I tell him point blank. I agree you cannot make him do anything he does not want to do but I have found I feel better if I set the boundaries and expectations. Then it is up to him to decide if he is going to do the work.

      My husband did not go to therapy. It was a little different since he is in the mental health field. I know it is the thought he should go and I don't disagree with it. My therapist who was excellent felt that him going to therapy would not be helpful or beneficial for him or us. My therapist felt based on the changes my husband made and his professional knowledge over 2 years that making him go would not be positive. But I think that is a unique situation.

      I do think you are right wanting to be loved and feel in a true partnership. What do you need to start moving in that direction. That is where we started and some of our boundaries and expectations are more now than after dday. We all deserve more than crumbs!!!

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    3. Thank you for listening and responding, Twins. I appreciate you being blunt, and I agree that my h needs to realize I won't wait forever. Hugs to you.

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    4. Hopeful,
      No, we haven't been back to therapy and I haven't suggested it again. I have an appt in January. I'll invite him, but I'll be surprised if he goes with me.

      I have told him what I want on several occasions. He will respond for a time, but then he'll stop or he'll slowly wean himself (if that makes sense). I'll try to have a conversation with him about it, but he'll shutdown. It's frustrating and exhausting. I'm tired of defining my boundaries and stating my expectations... I think I know what I need to do; I need to find the courage to do it.

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  15. Jo - I am barely past 5 months so I'm not sure I'm a valid resource - but H also is not interested in individual counseling. He has said he'd rather process it all himself and that time will heal the wounds.

    I too fear a repeat in history. Sadly, it already has - this time, however, it escalated to a sexual affair and his wanting to end the marriage and walk away from our family.

    I too have been saying that I don't want to bring up anything until after Christmas. I even read the recommendation to put it on hold during the holidays ... the problem is, it's eating at me and while everyone else may be in a state of false bliss, I'm in a state of pure misery.

    Some days I feel like the strongest woman I know ... other days I feel like a door mat who is allowing crumbs but is to scared to rock the boat to speak up. This back and forth BS is getting old.

    I'm sorry that Christmas is the line in the sand for both of us ... but is there ever truly a good time to have one?

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    1. Anon,
      I'm so sorry that your h relapsed and you're the one reeling from it. Why our husbands think they can process and work through years of whatever lies beneath their reason(s) for adultery one their own is baffling to me.

      I, too, feel that shift of the strongest woman to the door mat. I don't think my h realizes why I haven't said much about anything lately. I think he's just relieved that I'm not talking about it and hopes all will be forgotten.Talk about BS! He doesn't want to do the hard work.

      Christmas... such a strange time of year now. Within the past week, my h and I have shopped for decorations, attended a choral concert, went to dinner, and decorated our home -- all his ideas. He also suggested we have a live Christmas tree this year, which blew me away. He and I have always had an artificial tree, save the first year of our marriage. I grew up having live trees and have fond memeories... I was touched that my h took me to pick out a live tree, especially now.

      Things like what I described above give me hope, but I can't hold onto it/rely on it. I don't trust that he'll be consistent. And, to be honest, it still makes me so angry, hurt, and disappointed that he won't talk to me about our situation.

      So, here you and I are with our lines in the sand...

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  16. Yes, yes, yes. I know that is what I did too. I also grew up in an alcoholic home. I think it teaches us to be quiet and not rock the boat. I do demand more, way more. My fwh now asks before planning things with friends. He includes me in many activities and asks what I would like to do. Sometimes it is hard to know, as I had put my wishes aside for so ling, that it didn't come naturally to me for quite a bit. Our couple activities now far out number his activities with friends. No more crumbs for me. Thank you for writing this!

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  17. Hi Jo
    I'm so sorry for the situation you are in. It's every emotion possible hitting all at once. Frustration is high on my list.
    I can only offer my experiences.
    My h and I are into our 2nd separation in a year, and this one will be final. It saddens me to say that, but it will be.
    My h felt entitled to have his affairs. Our first MC session our counsellor - not angrily - pointed the finger, accusing my h - and rightly so - but this approach did not work and h got defensive and wouldn't open up, blaming me for all his problems. (My h has a hard time admitting he has faults and has stuffed up too many times in life). So hence, that counsellor did not last for us. Then another one was way too soft and whilst a lovely person, just didn't get the ball rolling.
    My h did try IC once, but I don't know what was said, but he's so good at lying who knows what he told his IC, because he hasn't changed as a person, and he didn't want to go back to MC so did not work on how he hurt me....AND our children.
    What I have discovered, is in our situation, you can not make someone do something that they don't want to do, especially when they feel they have done nothing wrong, like my h. I tried every emotion around him - sadness, strength, pissed off, happy.... nothing would work - he didn't care for me and I couldn't get him to go to any counselling.
    I do know that if you can find a good MC that has the ability to talk to your h and not accusing, they should be able to get to the base of all his problems - and yours as a couple. This may take months - but if you can find someone good and you want to work on your marriage, it will be worth it.
    But until your h is ready to admit he has a problem and needs to talk, he won't go to IC. I couldn't get mine there, and I hope others have some advice. It's too late for my marriage, but I hope more than anything your h comes to his senses and seeks therapy.
    Just be aware if you ask your h to separate as you hope this might shake him into being in or out - this may also make him feel he has the green light to live a single life and not bother to work on him and your relationship.
    Speak to your IC about separation and some strategies for you to handle this.
    I honestly don't know why these men can't admit to their wrong doings! (Something definitely is amiss in their brain - well my h's anyway).
    If at their work something goes wrong - they have to fix it, they just don't run away from their work problems, yet with marriage, these weak gutless bastards create all this mess for us women and children, and like mine - ran from it all.
    You'll have to forgive me Jo. I'm on a HATE h moment.
    I hope things work out for you
    Hugs
    Gabby xo

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    1. Gabby,
      I don't think you should apologize for having that "HATE h moment"! I get it! Thank you for your honest response and you warning about the green light interpretation. That is definitely one of my fears if I ask my h to leave. However, if he does behave that way (live like he's single), at least I'll know for sure what he's made of. Ugh...
      I'm torn.
      Thanks for listening and sharing your experience. I wish things were better for both (hell, ALL) of us... this stuck phase many of us are in now is heartwrenchingly horrible.

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  18. Still thinking about this and how living on crumbs plays out in my life. My therapist says that I am always looking for permission and that I have to give myself more permission to do what I want and go after what I need. I am not a selfish person so she isn't worried that I am going to abuse it. She says I do too much bending and waiting for the green light--that is what happens when you are a empathic, caretaker type from a large family. So I am guess I need to firm up my own strength and be a little more self focused. One of the other things I am confronting is how being a woman of color, growing up in the 80s, diminished my sense of healthy entitlement. Not seeing myself represented made it hard to see myself being entitled to do things I wanted to do. I kept myself in the background, waiting to be invited, waiting for permission, waiting to be recognized. I often got teased for my differences, that just made it harder to build confidence and a sense of belonging. I realize that I need to invite myself into full living. Often times, I give my husband the energy that I need for my own life. Of course, reclaiming that energy, refusing to settle for crumbs, means that his feelings get hurt and he reacts negatively. But I have to keep doing it for me.

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    1. That's right, MBS. You don't need to wait to be invited. It's your party, it's your house. This world is yours as much as anyone's.
      I identify with waiting politely for someone else to say 'go ahead'.
      Now it's your turn. It's our turn to live out loud.

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  19. One of the things I'm rumbling with right now are my needs and how to ask for what I want and need while managing a round of depression. I know when a tenacious bout of depression hits me because it affects everything, my relationship with food, with myself, with others. I tend to spend, eat, withdraw and stop moving. Every day decisions become paralyzing and I start to feel like I am both worthless and "too much" for people in my life to deal with. And while I am already working on asking for what I need, it becomes so challenging when I have those ghostly inner voices whispering that I don't even deserve crumbs. So now I'm trying not to withdraw, not to self-sabotage, not to buy in to the stories that the ghosts are whispering. And while I am making room to feel sad, maybe try and make room to take slow and gentle care of myself. and maybe, as excruciatingly hard as it is, open up to some people in my life and ask for help.
    One of the terrible things that cohabitates with depression for me is anxiety. And I'm trying to look at this anxiety with open eyes. Its a little bit of a trigger because in the past it was a sign that my ex was off cheating, hiding, withdrawing. But that's not the case now. He's just out of the picture. So where is my anxiety coming from? Some of it is fear that I won't be able to provide for myself financially. Some of it is that I won't ever feel better (even though I know this is true). Some of it is fear of rejection when /if I reach out for help and support through my depression. And that fear is legitimate. My struggles with depression were met with frustration and resentment from my ex. I wonder sometimes, how different our trajectory would have been had he been able to respond with empathy about how hard it was for me, instead of resentment about how hard it made things for him.
    So what I am trying to tell myself is that I deserve better than the crumbs I am surviving on and that the diet of crumbs is my own responsibility. But its because I am trying not to be "high maintenance." That really caught my attention and I need to think about treating myself like I deserve care and support.

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    1. Still standing 1
      You are one of the strongest women I’ve ever met on this site and I’m so felling you frustrated feelings! I also struggle with not demanding or becoming too needy. I’m one of those that always has been and is struggling to return to a very independent lifestyle. I retired 8 years ago and my h continues to travel for his career...the one that pays our mortgage and daily living. I could go back to work but we both realize that he makes more than both of us ever did and he would retire if we could afford health care and the day to day expenses. We have set down and settled our future financial needs with his 401 k, etc I put all of my assets in the property we own and I have inherited. It’s not enough to be really wealthy but enough to survive. Knowing all that doesn’t make me feel one bit better about the choices he is making for employment nor what I know I have to do my mother. But what I’ve learned from you is that no matter how hard you get knocked down, you pick yourself up and you do what you have to do! I’m so proud of that for you. I’m with you on the depression... December is a very hard month for so many people and reasons. I’m sending hugs and prayers and thoughts so you know that no matter how hard you are living through your story is giving many others such hope! Like Elle! Look up at the super moon tonight and know that she’s sending you light and love!

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  20. Ss1 you’ve answered all your own questions fears and thoughts. I havnt much more to add other than give yourself a break my love the self sabotage will slowly disappear in time.youll start to feel better about yourself and life won’t feel so threatening. All you gotta do right now is get through the next hour. Love you lots ss1.. sending big hugs to you xxx

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  21. In real life I lead a few life coaching workshops ... one of our topics recently was on asking for help. One of the most profound things that was discussed was the pause - pausing after we ask for help instead of backtracking and giving those around us an opportunity to back out of our request - whether because we are afraid they won't say yes or because we start to feel insecure because we asked.

    Sometimes I really wish I could utilize the techniques I'm trained to teach. :)

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    1. Ha so interesting since my husband is in the mental health field. So much knowledge, education, training and professional experience he did not follow himself. He has always said it is easier to help someone else, tell them what they need to do and solve the problem from the outside. The execution is the tricky part. He proves that a million times over. It is a major hurdle for me. Even after dday he told me you just don't get it when I initially blamed myself. He said from day one it was 100% all his fault. He also said he heard his internal voice right before he started each affair saying/screaming no. totally different from what you are talking about but it is hard for me to understand how he was able to do it with everything he knew. He was not clueless. He even said he knew it would take our marriage to the brink since it was the worst thing he could do. Sigh...

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    2. Hopeful 30
      I would give anything for my h to have just a small pinch of your h knowledge! My h is emotionally deficient. He has the feelings but he has no words to express them. My h also told me he knew how ‘mad’ I would be but he never knew how hurt I would/am in his selfish choice! There’s the difference in why and how he chose to cheat and I didn’t! Sending hugs and understanding!

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    3. I agree there are really good aspects to his knowledge. I think it helped accelerate our healing some. On the flip side I wonder what could be so wrong with someone to know that they will take their marriage to the brink and still do it anyways. In the end he had to have had such low self esteem and only care about himself. My therapist was amazed by how much and how quickly my husband made changes and stuck to them. My therapist was very honest and not super hopeful based on what my husband did and for how long it all went on. I think this area is a major spot for people to focus on. Even now my husband will focus on one little thing where I am big picture. He will stress out that if he goes out to watch a game with friends I might get bad, be sad or whatever. Where I want to focus on every day how we live our lives together since if that is good I think the rest falls into place. The communication has been critical. I like all the Gottman books for that. It helped to give me a new perspective and my husband has always respected their work. I think since it is so science based and not as "feel good" that he has been drawn to their work. Check them out. One thing that shocked me initially was how little training/education there is related to infidelity and betrayal. It is not a focus in any classes. Maybe if you pursued a degree in marital therapy or something. After the first few months past dday I realized I think I knew more than he did based on my reading. Granted he knew from day one it had nothing to do with me so that helped.

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  22. Elle, I relate completely. I'm new here and have been wondering what on earth more could I have done to stop his cheating?

    Did I not take care of his family enough? Did I not make sure there was always good food to be eaten at home? Did I not make sure every damn bill was paid? Did I not run a successful business of my own? Did I not take care of our finances and built it up to where he is so damn lucky to be splurging without a care in the world? Did I not bear a child and raised her on my own while he spent time loving some worthless piece of SHIT?! Did I not make sure to take him around the world and make him feel like a king?! Did I not give him enough sex?

    I did more than enough. It's not me. It's him. I'm an asset. And when I realized that...I knew I was ready to file for divorce. Got a lawyer and working out the finances spreadsheet. He can pay for his indiscretions. I will build a new happy life doing exactly all the good things I've been doing...this time for myself and my child. I am bitter and angry that I've allowed myself to live on crumbs for too long.

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  23. Yes, and whenever I want to talk about our relationship he wants to shut it down. Well, I recently brought it up (at our 29th anniversary dinner). I said I'm not threatening you, but we are both grownups here and we need to talk about this. I need to tell you some things and ask for some affection. He brought up my anger, my drinking, my rebuffing his affections. It's like what Elle said about washing the dishes and wanted to elbow him in the gut when he comes up to hug. I KNOW I am worth more than what I am getting. I am really scared though. I am an independent and strong woman and I know I will survive, but with crumbs? He has a woman (or women?) he sleeps with, so he gets his rocks off occasionally. That wouldn't be so bad for me (because our sex life ended almost 8 years ago) IF he could be affectionate and TELL me he loves me. Long ago, with the first D-Day, he said "don't my actions tell you I love you? I don't' say it all time, but I cook dinner and that is love.". He comes from a weird emotional family dynamic. His sister is worse than he is, in terms of being in touch with loving and affection. Yes, Sayonara, it's HIM. It's HIS problem. My problem is that I am married to him. There's the dilemma...

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    1. Valerie,
      I'm going to push back a little bit. HE is responsible for his choice to cheat. But YOU and HE are responsible for the state of your marriage. You know he cheats. You know he uses porn. It sounds as though you've completely lost respect for him and lost any desire for him. (I don't blame you. He hardly sounds appealing.) But if you want a marriage in which you are respected and valued then you need to value and respect yourself. You are showing him how to treat you.
      This isn't a dilemma, Valerie. It's a marriage and I honestly think yo've spent years being gaslit by this guy. This is emotional abuse.
      If you're not ready to leave (and on this site, we encourage each person to walk her own path toward healing), then I hope you'll at the very least, get a therapist to support you as you figure this out. I doubt he'll accompany you to therapy but please find a therapy who can help YOU. You deserve better, Valerie. There's some powerful reason you are staying in this marriage and a therapist can help you figure it out. You don't have to settle for crumbs.

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  24. Your hit back has me thinking and feeling so much, Elle. I looked up gaslit and have many, if not all, of the characteristics. I didn't even know it. Now I see that I have to tell him to stop it with this other woman. If he isn't willing to do that then I guess that tells me what my next move is, even though I don't want a divorce. It will be his choice and I will tell him that I cannot live this way any more and that in order for us to make it to our 30th anniversary he has to stop and we have to work on the marriage. This is what I am getting from your comment Elle. I probably sound very naive and I'm feeling very naive too. I've been gaslit from him since 1996 and put it in a box so that I could raise my kids. Although I'd rather grow old with him I might have to throw in the towel if he isn't willing to work on our relationship. Wow. Thanks for that kick. The feedback is good but terrifying.

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    1. I hope you understand my intention. It isn't to "hit back" at you. I know how much pain you're in. And I certainly empathize with being in a situation in which we can't see clearly. But from where I sit, you do NOT deserve any of this. And yet, you're tolerating it. What I'm hoping for you is that you'll consider the price you're paying for not making any demands, for not valuing yourself. I'm curious -- you say your kids are older. What advice would you give a daughter in a similar situation?
      And yes, once we understand gaslighting, it becomes SO clear. Still sometimes takes a while to learn how to respond because we're so accustomed to it. But that's what we're all doing here. Learning how to set boundaries, learning how to value and respect ourselves, learning how to treat ourselves better and insist that others in our lives do the same.

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  25. Thank you, Elle. That was a lot and I'm processing. Even looked up gas lighting, as I didn't know what it was. Sounds right and I do have some of the characteristics. Jeesh. I'm in deep and have been ALL these years. Yes, I hope my therapist helps me realize whatever that powerful reason is that I've stayed this long. Originally it was my kids, but they are older now and out of the house. Again, thanks. I have some thinking, reading and reflecting to do. Wow...

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  26. He gave me crumbs which made me back away leaving him with crumbs to which he responded with an affair. He still blames that period of time on me and he thinks he did everything he could but i was so far gone by then that nothing he did would help when all i truly wanted was for him to be honest with me and tell me how he felt. Even then he couldn’t do it so now i pay the price while he gives me even less than before. How much can one relationship take?

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    1. Bonabeaner,
      How much can one woman take? And how much should she have to? Whatever the state of your marriage, he is the one who chose to step outside of it. That's entirely on him. He could have asked for a separation, he could have told you exactly how he was feeling...that he didn't is HIS choice.
      Sounds like you're both in something of a stalemate so I'm asking: How long will you remain like this? Are you in couples counselling? Do you have any other support through this? Your pain is written in every word. You deserve better than this.

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    2. We were in couples but haven’t been in a couple months because I felt like she was coddling him and it pissed me off. Even after i told her i felt that way. I see an individual therapist so does he and I’m doing Harboring Hope with Affair Recovery but no other real supports. I’m not sure how much more i can take even though I’ve taken more than i could ever imagine i was capable of. I know I’m not innocent in all this but I’m not a doormat either

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