by StillStanding1
Unfortunately, in life there are times you will not be valued. Do not stay where you are not valued. Do not waste time in self-pity because someone did not value you. Your value, your worth, comes from your heart, not from someone else. ~Sarah Johnson
Unfortunately, in life there are times you will not be valued. Do not stay where you are not valued. Do not waste time in self-pity because someone did not value you. Your value, your worth, comes from your heart, not from someone else. ~Sarah Johnson
One of the things that amazes me about this site, this collection of warrior souls, is how often we all reach a similar place in our rumbles at the same time. Whether we choose to stay or go, we find ourselves pondering, or stuck, or questioning along the same lines. Have I done the right thing (in staying or leaving)? Why doesn’t he get how much he’s hurt me? Is this as good as it gets? Why can’t I forgive, or move on, or let it go? Will I ever feel something for him again? Or conversely, How did I not see he was such a selfish ass? And on and on.
Lately, what has been bubbling up over on the Separating/Divorcing page is this: How did I choose so badly? And I see this same theme coming up in other threads. How could I not see the potential for this disaster coming for me? As if we should have somehow seen this horrific break in trust in our life partners before it happened. As if we should somehow have magically known and avoided it.
What that sounds like to me is that we are taking on the blame for our spouses’ cheating (not dissimilar to the self-blame we wrestle with early after D-day, in the form of if I had been skinnier, younger, sexier, blah, blah, blah. When we hear of another’s pain, do we think, “wow, she should have seen that coming. Look at his family!”? No. The idea that we should have been able to see the tragic flaw(s) in our partners creates the illusion that we have control over this situation. Because if we are to blame, we can change the past.
Here’s the thing: We chose our partners to the best of the ability we had at the time. We were hopeful, optimistic and trusting. We believed in their basic human goodness and potential. I’m here to say that this is a beautiful thing. Very likely, we weren’t wrong then. They had all the potential we saw. We were never wrong to believe in them. But people change. The choices they make over time, the people they choose to invite into their lives, the forms of entertainment they choose, the experiences they have at the hands of others, all shift them from their centers if they go through life unconsciously. They made choices, over time, that led them to become different people. Not the human of potential we once saw, but instead someone making unhealthy choices to avoid dealing with pain and difficulty. Choices that ultimately led to breaking faith with and hurting the one he promised to love and protect. But those choices are all his. His responsibility, not yours. His to wrestle with and make amends for.
For those looking at exes and soon to be exes (STBX), trying to understand the crazy, selfish, manipulative asshole that is keeping you on the roller coaster as you navigate divorce: You’re wondering how you could have married that guy? You didn’t. He wasn’t that guy when you married. Certainly, the potential for that guy was always in there, but the potential for the good guy you saw was in there too. His choices determine which one he became. And now, he’s digging himself deeper because he knows he messed up (even if it is only subconsciously) and by making you look crazy (or demanding or shrill, etc.), he justifies his crappy choices. He doesn’t have to be too uncomfortable or deal with guilt and shame. Although many of us offered second chances, he was incapable of valuing us or the gift we offered.
For those rumbling with do I stay, or do I go?, I think it boils down to the same questions. Is he keeping you off balance to avoid dealing with his own shame and guilt? Is he shifting blame to you (problems in the marriage are not justifications for choosing to cheat)? Is he taking a good hard look at himself and doing the work to figure out how he got here? Has he said he’s sorry as many times as you need to hear it? Has he shown that he values you and this second (or third) chance you are giving him?
And for all of us, are we looking at ourselves, treating ourselves as if we have value? Are we in tacit agreement that we don’t have value by allowing others to treat us in that way? We are not obligated to stay in a marriage where we are not valued. Regardless of finances, family expectations and (to utter a near blasphemy) even regardless of children, you are not required to immolate yourself on the pyre of his flaming pile of dog poo. You have permission to put yourself ahead of him, your in-laws, and yes, even (or especially) your children. Your children are best served by your modeling healthy self-worth. It’s going to feel selfish if you’ve never practiced choosing yourself or putting your needs ahead of or in line with others’. It's going to get uncomfortable. But I encourage you to start by saying no to things you don’t want to do and yes to the things you do. (I’m not talking about buying that pair of shoes and then not having grocery money. I’m talking about saying no to baking all the cookies for the bake sale. No to picking up his dry cleaning. Yes to a quiet walk outside instead of cleaning the bathrooms for the third time this week.)
A few months after my ex and I separated, I was still trying to fight for my marriage. I in no way wanted a divorce. I had given this man several chances to choose better for himself, but he rejected them all. We were past mediation and just in the waiting phase before the divorce was final. I was focusing on getting out of my shell, making friends, exercising, doing art, getting good sleep. I was doing my best to deal with reality as it was. And honestly, it was such a relief not to be living with his nonsense any more. I felt like I could breathe. My daughter, out of the blue, says to me, “Mom, I didn’t want the divorce at first, but you are so much happier and healthier, that I can see it is the right thing.” Wow. I hadn’t even considered that I was either of those things, but the truth is, I was both happier and healthier without him in my life. And I’ve watched her, in the year since that conversation, showing herself more love and care in her choices and in how she approaches relationships, both friendships and romantic. That’s a big deal.
Part two of this is that I am now much quicker to recognize when I am not being valued as I ought, and now have the experience, strength and self-worth to walk away. I also recognize that the time with my ex has not been a waste. I have my children. I have so much learning. And I still (finally!) have me.
It’s okay to grieve the loss of the idea, the story you thought you had, or the relationship or any other change. But know that you will come out the other side. Trust yourself. Listen to your inner voice. Whether you stay or go, know that you have value and treat yourself that way.
Whoa. A light just went off in my head! For the past four days I have been holed up in a safe place. I ran away from home after my h was requesting I make him feel better after my trigger! These past four days I have reread all my journals and wrote down the history of what happened. I started with the four years he was visiting prostitutes and how he treated me to the 18 months post DDay in which there were 6 DDays in that time frame and how poorly he handled my recovery. I couldn’t put my finger on what was bothering me. After reading your post it hit me - he didn’t value me! He swares up and down that after I found out he realized how much he loved me and what he could have lost but clearly not enough to value me enough to do whatever it took to put his shame aside and empathize with me and put me first. I have been wrestling with “do I stay?” I’m going to watch closely how he values me. I deserve to be valued. But I don’t know if I will be able to stay knowing how devalued I have been for so long. In the past month he has made great strides in helping me and completely took responsibility and quit blaming it on problems in the marriage. We got close and then I had a trigger and he expected the same from me that he is expected to do to heal the infidelity!!! Then got angry at me when I couldn’t! I’m supposed to make him feel better about my trigger of him spending $30,000 on prostitutes which meant he went 150 times! (I bet he lied to me and it’s twice that much!) I’m supposed to make him feel better when I trigger about him getting in the hot tub and shower with them? I’m supposed to make him feel better about my trigger about the slides?
ReplyDeleteWhen I drove away from that narcissistic behavior I felt good!
LilyLove,
DeleteIs your husband in any kind of recovery? Because he should be learning that it is NOT your responsibility to help him deal with his shame (which is likely what is triggered when YOU have a setback). He needs to be totally responsible for dealing with own recovery, which includes learning how to manage the uncomfortable feelings that arise whenever you are having a tough time. He can't support you if he can't keep his own feelings in check.
I realized that when he told me “it was worth the money or I wouldn’t have kept doing it” was not valuing me. When he told me it was exciting and fun was not valuing me. When he told me he told the masseuse/ whore when she asked what pressure (haha) he wanted and he answered “I just want a woman’s touch” was not valuing me. When he told me “ I just wanted something different “ was not valuing me.
ReplyDeleteHis comments were not in anger they were in response to my question why?
If he would have valued me at all, he would have never uttered those hurtful words to me. If you value someone you value their feelings. I deserve to be valued.
LilyLove,
DeleteYes, that's true. He prioritized his own desire for something different, exciting, etc. over his marriage and your emotional/physical safety. I give him some points for honesty. It sounds as though he's being honest with himself about it, which will help him as he works to make sure he never goes down that path again. But yes, it's certainly painful to hear.
I will say this is so tricky. I struggled with wanting every detail after dday 1 and dday 2. I never considered how it would make me feel. And since my husband's "affair years" went on for 10 years he cannot remember some of the details. My husband has been in a unique situation due to his education, training and career in mental health. He told me many times that I cannot unhear what he tells me. I think there is a balance there. We need information and I craved it. I demanded it. I am glad in the end he did not go into some of the details I pushed for. Whether he remembers them or not I am not sure. Basically in the end everything he did was horrible from beginning to end. I listened and read a lot of Esther Perel which was helpful with this aspect. She really said to not focus on every detail like how many times did you do x, where did you do x, etc. but instead how did you feel. So instead of getting into the details more the meaning behind it. Really it is all disgusting and disrespectful behavior nothing he did was okay.
DeleteYes¡ It seems that one recognizes their value in pain and not in the happiness that blinds us. If one recognized their value and welfare easier, we would not have to suffer so much
ReplyDeleteVery true. It's not until they risk losing what really matters that they realize its value.
DeleteI admit it. I'm stuck with my anger at how unfair and UNJUST it all is. How I gave everything to my ex and his family to only be tossed aside and forgotten so quickly. How the kids and I have been screwed over financially by ex who doesn't see our worth to support us when he has the capability to do so. It has taken the end of a 30 year partnership/marriage to a narcissist for me to finally see my worth.
ReplyDeleteHugs
Gabby xo
Gabby,
DeleteI'm so sorry for everything you've been going through. And I know it can feel so hard to let go of that anger. But, as you note, you were married to a narcissist. He is who he is. It has nothing to do with your value and worth and everything to do is inability to value anyone over himself.
Which means you need to work really hard to untangle yourself from him. You've been groomed for 30 years to see your worth reflected by him. Now it's time to begin to recognize your worth through your own eyes, completely independent of him. Let him go. He will never be the man you thought he was or wanted him to be. He will always be shallow and manipulative. You are free from that now. Time to dance in the streets. Make sure you get what you're entitled to and let go of the resentment that it's not fair. You are right. It isn't fair. And no amount of wishing it was different is going to make it fair. But stop punishing yourself and start celebrating freedom from this asshole.
So 3 years, 5 months later, my advice would we to write your boundaries out. Write them in sharpie and big. As a victim of gaslighting, we’ve needed to revisit my verbal boundaries that have been talked about to death. BUT just tonight clueless joe once again had his own dickens interpretation. Sigh! So tired of reiterating common sense.
ReplyDeleteIn looking back, I should have written them out and had him sign. Amend and resign. Lather, rinse, repeat. Not gaslighted can rationalize a rule. There is no rational thread apparently!
Heartfelt, yes, it can feel like we're broken records, reiterating our boundaries over and over. I still have to do it -- with parents, with my husband, with my kids. Partly it's because I continue to give in at times, showing everyone that my boundaries are, occasionally negotiable. So that's on me. I need to learn to stop doing that. And writing them out is a really good idea. I think I'll do exactly that.
DeleteI love this idea too. Somehow writing them out makes them mean more or seem more serious. I am going to do this too.
DeleteThat’s how you know stay rather than go! If he truly shows how much he does value you, even though he wasn’t during the affair, only then is a relationship worth rebuilding!
ReplyDeleteYep!
DeleteI found this site exactly 3 years ago. My DD1 was two days ago. I soaked up everything and it helped me more than you could ever know, Elle. So far my husband and I have managed to stay together but it can still be bumpy at times. I still read every post, though not necessarily all the comments. Maybe I missed something, and of course feel free not to answer, but are you and your husband no longer together? That is what I gathered from this post. I always thought you'd made your way through and come out the other side (at least as much as one can). I am so sorry if this is too intrusive. I was just surprised when I read this post. With love and gratitude...
ReplyDeleteWhoops! Nope, you just pointed to that I completely forgot to include that this is a guest post, written by StillStanding1. Better make that correction.
DeleteMy husband and I are very much together, close to 12 years past D-Day. Still want to wring his neck sometimes but that has nothing to do with infidelity. I'm sure he wants to wring mine as well. But mostly, we laugh, we enjoy we each other, we're grateful to be together after all the storms we've weathered.
Phew!! LOL I am so happy to hear that. Cheers to many more good years!
DeleteOh Elle! I somehow knew that this post had to be still standing 1, it’s her style of writing but I didn’t have the ‘balls’ to ask! I’m glad anonymous has more courage than me! Hugs and a few winks! I love both of y’all and the writing y’all do! Just so damn honest!
DeleteGabby I’m so pleased you can finally see your worth : ) xx
ReplyDeletePre-affair, he didn't value me when he woke me for sex after homework, bathes and cooking. He didn't value me when there were 9 load of laundry on the floor but wanted to go somewhere HE wanted to go. He didn't value me when I went back to college to take accounting classes and fell asleep in class. He didn't value me when he woke me up to have lunch with him after working night shift in the ED. Then D-day. He had a lobotomy and suddenly I'm Mother Theresa who likes sex. I looked for my value through him. I didn't even value myself to put up with his shit. Then I didn't want HIM to value ME. After having my dignity stripped, reality, worth, security, dreams, faith and the belief in justice, who in the hell did he think he was making comments about my value? Seeking value from others was the yardstick I measured my worth. It became how I should feel, not how I felt. This became a constant source of non-value. In therapy, I learned self value. The opinions of others no longer have the ability to influence my thoughts. The second guessing (still happens but I try to knock it out) and doubts are limited because I have a right to my opinion. I can disagree without being harsh or mean. I'm open to learning but the opinion of others no longer dictate the way I should feel. Letting go of that external value is agonizing. The more I hung on to my value through job, money, love or external anything the more likely I was to lose my value when I lost those things. There is value in you, give yourself credit for overcoming such a trauma. You transformed undeserved hurt into your own value. You gained something and replaced it with something new. You are not defective you are the total of your life experiences and there is value in you. It is a struggle and I fight it every single day, but when I need it I can pull it out of the closet, put it on. In between times I rest my mind
ReplyDeleteI want to share examples of how I didn't value myself. I was on train in the quiet car. I was afraid to open my lunch because the paper bag made noise. I was so hungry. NOW I could care less if I make noise. I waited to speak until someone in a meeting finished talking. I never interrupted. My therapist told me to interrupt, guess what nothing happened. I did things I didn't want to do all the time, I did't value my time. NOW I tell people politely, no thank you. I would make a decision then waffle back and forth endlessly because I didn't value my opinion. NOW I change my mind or decisions all the time. I would a strip tease outside on the patio pre-affair to get my husband's attention. He thought I was making fun of him. My H asked me wear some skimpy undies he bought me while decorating the Xmas tree, I ended up in tears. I didn't value the way I looked. NOW I buy underwear I like. I told him to stop buying me underwear for him, I'll pick out my own damn underwear. It has help me to write about these to see how far I have come.
ReplyDeleteLLP,
DeleteLike you, I've come a long way but just lately I've noticed how much work I still need to do. I've been watching Bachelor in Paradise (thanks to my daughter, who loves it and wants me beside her...which is pretty nice) and HOLY TOXIC MEN!! Still, I've noticed how these people focus on what THEY themselves want. Not what others want. How THEY feel. What feels good for them. And I'm realizing just how foreign that is for me. I still, far too often, view the world and myself, through the lens of those around me. Am I being a good mother? A good wife? A good friend? A good daughter? More rarely do I wonder if my kids are being "good" kids, my husband a "good" husband, my friends "good" friends, etc. I perform in exchange for love and kindness.
Wow...long way to go. ;(
Hey my lovely friends .. I wrote recently how I had attended a live webcast of kundalini yoga well the guy who runs the workshop is doing a live webcast.
ReplyDeletehttps://activate.jaidevsingh.com/opt-in-circumvent-force-academy-webcast-fb-sept-2018/?ls=1057&WickedSource=Facebook&WickedID=6108217311592
Please give it a go and tell me how you found it. I felt absolutely transformed afterwards I loved it.
Big hugs to you all and happy Sunday xx
Thanks for this. Not sure if I'll have time tomorrow but plan to try!!
DeleteI meant to put I attended a workshop : )
ReplyDeleteIt is a very interesting post! Thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteMe and my husband are in the middle of this storm in our marriage, where I am confused if I should get a divorce or stay for the sake of kids.
ReplyDeleteHe cheated on me and is a functional alcoholic in denial. Now that he has realized I am thinking of divorcing him, he is being extra nice with kids, spending ,more time with them and literally love bombing them! In their eyes he is the hero right now.
I should be happy that my kids are happy, but I am not. I get mad because I feel like he is influencing kids and also feel that kids don't see what all shit I have put up with for their sake. They are 10 and 6 so may be too young to see my side of the story. Our kids are extremely attached to him emotionally so that is the reason I am scared to pull the plug as I feel like I don't want to hurt my kids. But in return I am getting more hurt.
When drunk, my husband also says that he will take kids away from me, so that also makes me scared of the custody battle. If I lose kids, I have more to lose than to gain from this divorce.
How do I gain my kids' trust back? I feel like they are slipping away from me. I am one confused mama right now....please guide...
Hurt Mom,
DeleteI don't think your kids should ever be in a position where they have to pick sides. Your job is to give them boundaries and unconditional love. "Love bombing" them might feel like fun but is actually confusing to kids if it's not accompanied by clear boundaries around what is expected of them. Kids want and need clear boundaries.
Your problem is with your husband his treatment of you and behaviour with in the marriage. A functional alcoholic is still an alcoholic and you need to insist that if he wants you to consider staying in the marriage, that he seek help for his addiction. It's typical of addicts to "behave" when threatened. It won't last, as you likely know.
Your first step is to see a lawyer to talk over what your life would look like if you leave him. I'm not sure where you live but judges don't typically refuse custody to mothers who are perfectly capable of looking after children. You might have shared custody but he can't "take the kids away" from you. But, please, talk this over with a lawyer so that you're completely clear on what your rights are and what you're entitled to.
And then decide whether you want to give your husband the chance to seek help for his addiction or if you're done with the marriage.
What else do you need to stay? Counselling re. his affair? Twelve-step groups? Determine what it is and then lay it out. He's asking you to rebuild a marriage after cheating. So you get to decide what the terms of that reconciliation looks like.
It's absolutely possible to rebuild a marriage after cheating and it's possible for alcoholics to get sober. But it takes a TON of hard work. If he's absolutely willing, then you can decide whether or not you want to give him the chance. But if he's refusing to take responsibility for his drinking and his cheating, then he's telling you that his wants/needs matter more than yours or the children's.
Hurt Mom, please, in the meantime, seek help for yourself to get clear on how his behaviour over the years has essentially groomed you to accept unacceptable behaviour. Life doesn't have to be this chaotic or painful.
Elle, Thanks for the response! I have met a lawyer already and she said there is no way I can loose kids. I also plan to meet another lawyer and take a second opinion.
DeleteHowever my son is acting very much clingy to my husband and it makes me wonder how my son will react if there was a divorce? I sense that my son becomes insecure with his dad because I have kicked out his dad in the past. If my son gets hurt in the longer run, then I won't be able to enjoy my divorced life either. I don't want him to blame me for the split because right now he sees that I am the only one driving the divorce. Will my son heal and accept fine with time? He prefers his dad over me for almost everything and that is absolutely heart breaking for me :(
Hurt Mom,
DeleteI doubt he "prefers" his father but rather fears losing his father. Children who feel emotionally safe feel no need to cling. It's healthy for kids to push back against parents -- it's how they discover their autonomy. But kids won't push back against parents whose love feels conditional. Instead, they cling. So what you're likely seeing isn't healthy. It's co-dependent.
You are holding yourself responsible for everything. If you divorce, it is because your husband refused to become a better man and husband. That's on him. You didn't cheat. He did. You didn't refuse treatment for addiction. He did. You are simply enforcing boundaries around behaviour that you will not tolerate in your life. That is a healthy thing. But when you've lived with an alcoholic, you often learn to take responsibility for the addict's behaviour and choices. It's why I strongly urge you to seek counselling for yourself so that you can unlearn these unhealthy lessons and learn how to model healthy behaviour for yourself and your kids.
Your son might "blame" you but he's a kid. He sees divorce only through the eyes of someone who doesn't want his life disrupted. He can't possibly understand what he's expecting of you at this point -- and he shouldn't have to. He should be allowed to be a kid. To be angry about the divorce but also to accept that adults makes the decisions in this family, not children. And that you are making decisions based on what you think is best for the family even if he disagrees. He needs to know that an adult is in charge.
Kids want stability. They want to be free to be kids. That doesn't mean always getting what they want. It DOES mean being able to trust that the adults are making the best decisions they can and that they are loved and valued, no matter what.
Elle, thanks so much! This makes a lot of sense. I am in counseling already and realize that it is going to take years of unlearning to break free from the hurt I have been and what my normal has become. I am trying to communicate things with my son, and helping him understand situation. Thanks again for your response!
ReplyDeleteThis divorce won't affect my son adversely right? My only worry is him, as I know I will be better off without the current chaos and my daughter is young enough where she can adapt easily.
ReplyDeleteI wish I had a crystal ball and could assure you that a divorce won't affect him adversely. There is simply no way to know -- and far too many variables that are also affecting him. It isn't the divorce that's the problem, rather too often it's the way that the divorcing parents treat each other. When a child sees parents turn against each other openly, when they try and enlist children as allies instead of leaving them out of it, when there's visceral anger and hatred -- all of that negatively impacts a child, whether the parents are divorced or not.
DeleteYour counsellor can guide you in protecting your children as much as possible from the negative affects of their parents' relationship. It's crucial that you allow your kids to be kids, as removed as possible from any of the fallout. I hope your husband recognizes how important it is to also let the kids be kids.
Your job is to learn healthy boundaries and to model that for your children so that they don't get into unhealthy relationships.
This morning several of the kids were dragging their heels for school, acting up and one, ultimately didn't go as he was having a 'bad day'. I'd planned to do my morning run and then come back and get some serious writing done as my writing (novels) took a setback over the last few years with all the affair drama and repeated instances. In the past I would have sacrificed myself and done everything for the kids. Today I said - I'm going for my run and let my husband usher the younger ones out of the door. As it turned out my husband ended up walking the youngest to school as his sister got tired of waiting and left. When I got back my eldest son (who was out of school for years but has got himself back) was still getting himself ready (but late). What he saw was me having completed a strenuous run (he commented on it.) I still ended up having a pep talk with my second son but I was in a much better place myself to deal with it. Its made me realise how little I put myself first in the past.
ReplyDeletePart 2.
ReplyDeleteHusband and I were at a parenting talk last night. The speaker (actually an ex-Governor of a major prison!) was very inspirational and positive. He talked about teen relationships and how we should encourage our teens to make sure that they're respected in relationships. If they are being asked to do things and put up with things they aren't comfortable with then there is no respect and they should say goodbye to the relationship. While so much of the narrative about the lies and repeated deceptions over the years of my husband has been about why he did it, his habits, compulsions, poor sense of self or whatever, it really clarifies things to think of it in terms of whether we are being respected and valued. My husband had an affair, then had trouble supporting me through triggers, sometimes turning on me with defensiveness and anger, he did not follow the safety requests I had, he lied again, he engaged in actions (porn and friendly lunches) that we had expressly agreed should not happen. He knew how much his actions devastated me but did not think about me when he went on to have lunches etc. Whatever his reasons (and we may choose to forgive and stay if work is put in to changing bad patterns) all his actions were devoid of respect for me and did not value me at all. Yet he wants to stay now and claims to love. He attends counselling and is going through some of the materials and processes that we'd agreed had to be gone through. It's very late in the day and still patchy (though our lives are incredibly busy etc) which doesn't help to make me feel valued. At the I'm just waiting to see whether he can make things right after all these compromised years.
FOH,
DeleteYay for you for going for the run and leaving others to deal with their own stuff. THAT IS SO HARD FOR ME. Two of my three kids struggle with anxiety and I spent far too much time coaching them and comforting them and reassuring them. I'm reminded of that old proverb: When we're holding on to our child's hand, it gives them one less hand to use. I KNOW that. But I get sucked into their need/want to have me rescue them. I've really got to work on this because my resentment is going up, which is my clue that I'm not respecting myself.
It will be interesting to see how the dynamics in your family and marriage shift as YOU begin to respect yourself and your time more.
Good luck with those novels. They're not going to write themselves so you MUST prioritize that time. Close your door and don't open it unless the house is on fire or someone is bleeding a LOT. (Easy for me to give advice...I need to take my own.)